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"id": 195017,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/195017/?format=api",
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Mr. Wako",
"speaker_title": "The Attorney-General",
"speaker": {
"id": 208,
"legal_name": "Sylvester Wakoli Bifwoli",
"slug": "wakoli-bifwoli"
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"content": " Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to congratulate you for enlivening the session this afternoon. I just wish to thank all those who have spoken in support of this International Crimes Bill. Mr. Githae mentioned, and quite rightly so, that it is there to prevent rather than coming in after the event has occurred. However, prevention is not for the court. Prevention lies elsewhere. It lies with the people of Kenya and the Government of Kenya. Prevention, at the international level, lies with the Security Council of the UN which can come in to prevent. In fact, under the Bill that we are now enacting, the Security Council can refer a matter of that nature to the ICC. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, prevention, as far as the ICC is concerned, is the same type that would occur if you had a deterrent sentence on your statute books such as capital punishment. Some people may fear now to commit the offence of murder because they know that the punishment is murder. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I stated earlier, part of the benefit of having this ICC is actually to act as a deterrent to leaders who may think that they can commit these offences and escape punishment. In fact, that is why it was put in place. This is because we have had what is called a culture of impunity all over the world where leaders commit these types of offences knowing that they will escape punishment. Now they are on notice because of the wrong statutes and the Bill that we are now enacting. If you commit that type of offence, then even if your own state may not be able to call you to account, or even if you may manipulate the forces in your own country so that you are not called upon to account, at the international level, you will be called May 7, 2008 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 927 upon to account. You will not be able to plead that other people did it and not you for as long as you are in charge. In fact, there are clauses in this Bill that clearly show that leaders will be held accountable. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, what happened in the Nuremberg Trial, when various leaders were being called, is that they would say that it was not them who were responsible, but their juniors. The juniors said that they were not responsible and that they were only acting under the command of their leaders. Now you cannot throw the blame either on your leader or yourself. You are personally liable. The one committing the act and whoever has authorised him to do that is also accountable under the international law. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we now have the ICC and it is a deterrent for these types of things happening. The fact that the ad hoc tribunals have already had some success on this, for example, the leaders from the former Yugoslavia, the leader of Sierra Leone, Lord Kony in Uganda and so on--- They are being prosecuted. To me, it is a deterrent to whoever is in a leadership position; to ensure that he does not have to be arrested after he has ceased being a leader and taken to the Hague for trial. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if it were to happen, for example, in Burma, that is the killing fields, they are also going to be prosecuted. In fact some people have already been charged for the crimes they committed. So, the passage of this Bill is also going to help us here in Kenya to ensure that this type of things that, perhaps, happened in the past, cannot escape liability. Mr. Mungatana mentioned a very important point which I also mentioned yesterday. This is the issue of witness protection. I want to inform him that, in fact, as I speak now, the ICC has already established a fund to assist a programme of witness protection and the victims of these atrocities. They already have a trustee. Last year, we proposed a Kenyan to be a member of that board of trustees from Africa, but it was by mistake because the current term of the trustee from Africa had not yet expired. That person comes from South Africa. I will not mention his name, but he is a very prominent personality in South Africa. So, that is already happening. I also want to take this opportunity to inform you that at the national level, the Witness Protection Act that you enacted some time ago, is about to become operational. In fact, tomorrow, we shall have the launching of the operational manual for the witness protection programme in Kenya. I set up a Committee to come up with the operational manual which I will be launching tomorrow. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also wanted to inform this House that it is true that Kenya does not have its share when it comes to holding top and prominent positions within the UN system and even within the ICC. However, we are now becoming very aggressive at it. We have already begun making some measure of success. Only about two years ago, I was the campaign manager for a Kenyan to be an ad hoc judge on the International Criminal Tribunal on Rwanda. Indeed, we succeeded. In fact, the Kenyan got the most votes from Africa at the General Assembly in New York. He was second overall in the whole world. That Kenyan is Justice Lee Muthoga. He is now in Arusha as an ad hoc judge of the International Criminal Tribunal on Rwanda. So, we are having people and they are coming up. In fact, that is why I am very anxious that we pass this Bill so that we can even be more aggressive now in recommending our own Kenyans who are well qualified to undertake this. A point was mentioned about having people to investigate these issues in this region. I have no doubt in my mind, particularly, in Kenya and some of the neighbouring countries, we have our own very active NGOs operating in this field and they are doing a marvellous job in carrying out investigations and exposing these types of activities that have been going on. I am quite sure that they will also continue. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, a lot was spoken about economic genocide. This Bill is not concerned with what one may call \"economic genocide.\" Important as it is, it is only 928 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES May 7, 2008 concerned with criminal genocide. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I know that there are other mechanisms to address the concerns that the Deputy Speaker referred to. They may not be as effective as they should be, but they are there. We have, for example, the United Nations Economic Committee, which is entrusted with the responsibility of seeing how the economic, social and cultural rights are implemented in various countries. We know that all countries are mandated to report to that committee which makes assessments of a data of this kind. With regard to some of the communities he has mentioned, for example, the Ogiek community, has filed complaints, not before the ICC, but before another mechanism under the African Union, called the African Commission on Human Rights. In fact, some of those cases will be mentioned in Swaziland next month. So, the mechanisms are there, although they may not be as effective. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this Bill is worthy of being passed unanimously by this august House. With those remarks, I beg to move."
}