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"id": 195192,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/195192/?format=api",
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Mr. Wako",
"speaker_title": "The Attorney-General",
"speaker": {
"id": 208,
"legal_name": "Sylvester Wakoli Bifwoli",
"slug": "wakoli-bifwoli"
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"content": " Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. I wish to thank hon. Members who have made sterling contributions to this Bill. These include the Seconder, Mr. M. Kilonzo, my two former Deputy Attorney-Generals, that is, Messrs. Mungatana and Githae, May 6, 2008 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 855 the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs, Ms. Karua, the crusader for children's rights Ms. Odhiambo and my dear friend and colleague Mr. Nyamweya. It is the first time actually I have heard him speak in this House. Congratulations! They have all made useful comments which, of course, we are going to take on board. First of all, there was a common comment on Clause 137(n) under which the Sexual Offences Act will not apply to this Bill when enacted. I want to agree with them entirely. I also want to agree with them that there may be need to exempt other offences from the provisions of this Act and in particular, international crimes such as genocide and crime against humanity and drug trafficking. I believe that we should be able to deal with that at the Committee Stage. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to assure Mr. Nyamweya that as we modernise the law, we are not losing sight of the infrastructure. In fact, the Ministry of Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs, starting with Mr. Murungi followed by Ms. Karua have been on the forefront in trying to put the infrastructure in place through the GJLOS Programme. I believe that they are all here, particularly the current Minister. I know she has heard and I will ask her to redouble her efforts in putting the infrastructure in place. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the issue of decentralization of the prosecutors to the district level, which was raised by hon. Members, I can assure this House that, that matter is in our strategic plan for the State Law Office. In future, we should have a State Law Office at every district headquarters. When that is done, there will be a professional prosecutor at that level. The aim really is to have all professional prosecutors under the Attorney-General's office, as I indicated to you, when I was moving the Bill. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would consider the point raised by Ms. Odhiambo about also exempting offences under the Children's Act. That should also be considered for reasons which other contributors to the Bill have stated. On the issue of lawyers as private prosecutors, I want to inform this House that very soon I will be publishing the Private Prosecutors Bill. We are on the move. We need to, among other things, establish what can be done for that category of prosecutors. I want to agree with the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs on Clause 137(m) of the Bill. I believe that the information which is contained in a plea agreement, and which has been entered into on a very voluntary basis, should not only be used in a civil case arising out of the matter, but I believe in other criminal cases. When I was moving this Bill I stated that part of this plea bargaining process is actually to enable us to have good witnesses against the bigger fish, if one may call them so, or other people who have committed crimes and they do not want to plead guilty to the offences. I now come to the very progressive proposals by Mr. Githae, who said that if the jails are full, the prisoners should be asked to come when they are less full, for example in nine months time and so on. I know that works in the United States of America (USA), but we are yet to get there. I am sure that when the strategic plan for the Prisons Department is fully implemented, and the conditions in the prisons are good enough for you and me to be there, like they are in the USA, it will be possible to for us to say: \"Go away and come at such and such a time\", and you duly report on the stated day to enter prison. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the issue of the victims, whereas the trend so far has been to emphasise the rights of the accused person in the international law, the trend now is to balance the rights of the accused person against the rights of the victim. The rights of the victim are now finding place in the criminal justice system. It is just like we have done here, where in entering the plea agreement there has to be a victim in that statement, if any is made, to enable the court to arrive at the right decision. In the amendments that we carried out in 2002, we began restoring the balance by copying from the practices in Canada, where before a sentence is meted out, the court has an obligation to 856 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES May 6, 2008 consult the victim and his family to find out what they think the appropriate sentence and adequate compensation ought to be. We are going to follow up this trend in the minimal amendments that are coming to try to take into account the rights of the victim and his family, and not just the rights of the accused person, who may, in any event, be a suspected criminal. We must also take care of the law-abiding citizens who are victims of criminal behaviour in this country, or any in any country for that matter. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there was also an issue about money being paid to the State. That law is coming. When you listen to cases in the USA and other countries, at the conclusion of a criminal case, they will be able to tell you that it has cost the State so many million pounds to carry out the investigations and the prosecution. If we are also going to be cost-effective in the criminal justice system, we must find a way of assessing what a certain case has cost the State to investigate and prosecute a particular crime. If, for example, as happened to this country, there are criminals, or suspects, who do now want cases to be heard and there is an application upon application from the magistrate's court to the High Court and the Court of Appeal, and then before a case is heard another application is made--- They take the criminal justice system round and round for years, then in the end when the case is heard and they are found guilty--- Those people must be made to pay for the amount it has cost the State to mount the investigations and prosecutions. We are particularly talking about cases which involve economic crimes, where substantial sums of money may be involved, and where we know that a particular suspect has taken the criminal justice system round and round, because he or she is heavily loaded, has the money and can hire the best lawyers in town. If such a suspect is convicted, not only should he or she be sentenced, but he or she should be fined. An order should also be made that he or she pays the amount which it has cost the State to mount that prosecution. Those reforms are coming. All that I am asking of this House is to be more understanding and ready to pass the law reforms that are going to come between now and the time when the Tenth Parliament ends. With those few remarks, I beg to reply."
}