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"id": 196137,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/196137/?format=api",
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Dr. Mwiria",
"speaker_title": "The Assistant Minister for Higher Education, Science and Technology",
"speaker": {
"id": 190,
"legal_name": "Valerian Kilemi Mwiria",
"slug": "kilemi-mwiria"
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"content": " Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity to support these two Reports. I was privileged to be able to support the Report for the previous two financial years. As some hon. Members have indicated, there are major similarities in the two Reports. One of the issues we have to consider, as we think of these Reports is, firstly, the composition of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC). I know the Committee is doing a great deal of work that we are happy to see. However, if we have a Committee that is putting so many questions to other Government and individual bodies, it is important that the Membership of this Committee be made up of people who are beyond reproach - people who have no history of being involved in corruption. They should be people who can say: \"Yes, I can investigate other people because, personally, I have not been associated with any corruption.\" Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as we constitute this Committee, it is also useful to think of its composition in terms of the professional backgrounds of its Membership. Since this is about the time we constitute this Committee, we should look at the kind of people who want to be Members. 634 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES April 23, 2008 We should ask ourselves whether or not they come from a business background, professionals, and what it is they would bring to this Committee that would add value in terms of the kind of work that they have to do. Much has been said about donors and donor resources. Clearly, there is need to harmonise these resources to ensure that there is no duplication in terms of whether or not the resources from donors, are not voted for other projects that have already been supported by the Government. There is, therefore, need for co-ordination. Not only because of that duplication of a particular project, but because there is a variety of donors. There are donors doing similar things in the same places when those resources could be better put to use if they were extended across the cross-section of this country. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, some of the conditions that are set by donors sometimes cause problems even when it comes to accounting. We need to also call upon them to insist on accounting procedures that are realistic in terms of both accomplishing the goal and meeting the deadlines that they have set. Even as donors speak so strongly about corruption, they sometimes turn a blind eye to corruption. A good example is when we were comprising the Grand Coalition Government. Donors were pushing us very hard to comprise a Grand Coalition Government. However, they did not care very much about the kind of people who were to be included in this Government. So, in other words, donors themselves can be very contradictory in terms of the recommendations that they make. It is very difficult to fight corruption in this country. When I spoke about KANU yesterday, people thought that I was blaming everybody in KANU. However, I was really talking about \"old KANU.\" Many of the issues raised in these reports have got to do with Government excesses during KANU's time. If we do not look at the kind of people that are to be part of Government, then there is no need of expecting much in terms achievement. In this regard, we should also sanction our donors for not paying particular attention. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, point has been made about civil contingencies. This is money that Ministers and Government bureaucrats turn to, because there is no criteria. Maybe, we should develop a criteria on who would have access to this money. Secondly, it is also important to ensure that when money is voted for specific projects in Government, there is no overlap or duplication. It should not be used to cover up for money that has been lost by various Ministries. More importantly, if it is a large amount of money, it should be subject to parliamentary approval, just as major decisions on the Supplementary Budget and others are subjected to parliamentary approval. The Excess Votes that have been talked about are an illustration of indiscipline, inefficiency and of the calibre of the people who sometimes serve in these positions. This is not to forget the fact that there are also issues of corruption that have a bearing on that. Therefore, we should put questions to our Accounting Officers. However, we should not just target Accounting Officers, who are the Permanent Secretaries (PSs) and others. I think politicians are to blame, not only when it comes to their not ensuring that those excesses do not take place, but also because they are sometimes responsible for those excesses. They are responsible in the kind of demands they make to PSs, including requests for more vehicles, more per diem, large teams of people to join them on overseas trip, et cetera . It is, therefore, important to realise that many of these things happen because we have Ministers in Government who put too much pressure on PSs to release money even when the PSs would not have released that money. So, we also need to protect our bureaucrats from politicians. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, a point was made about how much money we are losing through Government drivers because of the major losses that we are incurring. However, we have to ask questions about the appointment of those drivers, and whether or not some of them are appointed through political pressure. I think some of the worst drivers are in the district headquarters. Many of the drivers who cannot find employment in the private sector find positions in the Government. So, April 23, 2008 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 635 we need to be much more strict with regard to what kind of people get appointed to those positions. We should also ask for more accountability in terms of the use of the vehicles that are assigned to them; and not just from drivers and bureaucrats, but again, from politicians. Many of the Government vehicles are used during the campaign. You go to Ministries and find vehicles that have had engine knocks. Politicians used them and never handed them over for proper service. So, there is so much misuse of Government vehicles. Many employees of the Government and many other people have the tendency of thinking: \" Hayo ni mali ya Serikali\" . So, to them, it does not really matter how they misuse it. So, it is important for us to instill a culture of making those who get Government jobs realise that there is nothing like mali ya Serikali, but rather it is all our property. We need to guard it. The same culture should be propagated among the officers who supervise the facilities that are under their care. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I agree with those who said that we need to have public hearings. In so doing, we will expose those who are committing economic crimes against the people of Kenya. This way, we will also be able to summarise the findings of these kinds of Committees to the public in simple technical language on television and radio. It is only through live televising of Committees proceedings, so that Kenyans are aware of what kind of people are a major threat to their own survival. In terms of punishment for offenders, often, you find that many of those who have been accused have been promoted instead of being demoted. In terms of whether or not these kinds of cases should not be brought to the attention of the appointing authorities, if it be Ministers or Assistant Ministers or PSs--- In addition to giving these reports to the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC) and other bodies and sending them to the Treasury, we also need to let the President know directly, him being the Principal Accounting Officer in the country, of the kinds of people who are involved in excesses, especially if they happen to be senior Government officers, so that he can take the necessary action. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is particularly important with regard to the politicians and Accounting Officers, who refuse to report to the Committee. In a sense, they are saying that no action can be taken against them. If the senior-most authority in this country is made aware of those kinds of people, they are less likely to be that careless with regard to refusing to report to the Committees for hearing or to even give the particular reports that are required of them. On implementation, it may be necessary to have a core national committee comprising of the key people in this country, namely, the President, the Vice-President, the Prime Minister, the Minister for Justice and National Cohesion, the Attorney-General and, maybe, the Speaker of the National Assembly, to be the final authority with regard to determining what kind of action should be taken against those who ignore these kinds of reports, or are used to looting public resources. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we also need to be able to bar such persons from Parliament. An hon. Member said here that a lot of the people who are mentioned in the Gazette are sitting Members of Parliament, or they are former Members of Parliament. How can we expect others to follow the law if we, ourselves, cannot implement what we have sworn to protect? It should be possible for us to pass a law in this Parliament to say that if you have been implicated in any of these crimes, then you would not qualify to be even voted in as a Member of Parliament. If you are stopped from coming to Parliament, in the first place, a lot of the problems will be resolved. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it should also be possible to bar such persons from business. These kinds of people should be declared pariahs in society. One time, Zimbabwe's President Mugabe was referring to gays as people who are not better than animals. People who loot public resources and cause misery to so many Kenyans are not better than animals. In this regard, they need to be kept out of the public domain. They need to be kept out of anything that has to do with the public. By stealing so much from the public, they cause misery to millions of people. 636 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES April 23, 2008 We also need to be very severe in our punishment with regard to people committing economic crimes. In China, if you are associated with economic crime, you are executed in public. So, there is no room for anybody else who wants to attempt it. I know that is not possible, but they do that because executing one person, sometimes, is cheaper than getting hundreds of billions of people to die because of crimes committed by a single individual. It is high time we also begun to think seriously about more severe action against people who commit economic crimes and cost the country billions of shillings. Finally, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to say that Parliament itself has to be the vanguard in terms of not tribalising these issues; in terms of not saying that we are targeting a certain community when we identify a corrupt person from that community; in terms of being honest enough to discuss these issues openly and to expose even their own friends as enemies of the people. In this regard, I think it is important to even change the law to have a strong watchdog in this Parliament. If we can change the law to create the position of a Prime Minister and other positions, why can we not change it to leave room for the creation of a Grand Coalition so that we can keep some of the people who cause so much misery to the people of Kenya under check? That is what should be done. The point I am making is that whatever we can do as a Parliament to ensure that these reports are implemented and that culprits are no longer able to repeat the mistakes that cause so much misery to this country, should be done. With those few remarks, I beg to support."
}