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"id": 196568,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/196568/?format=api",
"text_counter": 94,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Dr. Mwiria",
"speaker_title": "The Assistant Minister for Higher Education, Science and Technology",
"speaker": {
"id": 190,
"legal_name": "Valerian Kilemi Mwiria",
"slug": "kilemi-mwiria"
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"content": "Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the point has been made why we cannot play around with the whole profession of accounting. Accounting is at the key of everybody. The very small business persons who are doing business, if they cannot do their maths right, they run out of business! Institutions, governments and Ministries have resources. Part of the reason we have a lot of problems with delivery of services is because a lot of those resources are not well managed to the extent that it is not just inefficient, but many times even Ministries return money to the Treasury! If our monies were well managed, we would not be talking about the big scandals we have been talking about in the last so many years. There would have been no Goldenberg scandal in this country because the taps would have been identified by good accountants from the beginning and we would have known about it. There would have been no Anglo Leasing scandal! Many of the problems that we are talking about exist because of bad accounting; or some accountants themselves were not brave enough to stand out and say: \"We have noticed these problems.\" Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, with regard to the specific provisions of the Bill, I have noticed that there are issues of how much autonomy there must be with regards to the Kenya Accountants and Secretaries National Examinations Board (KASNEB) in relation to the Institute of Certified Public Accountants of Kenya (ICPAK). I am saying that because I think over the years, there has been a tug of war between KASNEB and ICPAK as to whether or not KASNEB should be swallowed by ICPAK. I do agree that there is a relationship, but that relationship should just be like the one between the Ministry of Education and the Kenya National Examinations Council (KNEC), that allows for a certain extent of autonomy. That autonomy will be key in terms of vetting who are the people who could join those institutions. KASNEB has been extremely successful in terms of developing programs of accounting, finance and administration. It has even an institution that is now developing degree programmes in the area of accounting and related disciplines. So, it is important to protect that autonomy and to support that organization, but still allow a certain autonomy while it relates to the bigger body. There is a great deal of higher indication potential if KASNEB could be supported the way many of those who argue for it are asking for. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Bill suggests for the formation of various committees and institutes; the Institute of Accountants, the Council, KASNEB, the Disciplinary Committee and many other boards. I would like to suggest, and this is particularly relevant at this time in Kenya that, as we form those committees, we must be aware of our national diversity. It is important that, as we comprise councils, we ask questions about what is the ethnic representation of those particular bodies that are going to be part of this? This is important because we have to April 16, 2008 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 507 realize that communities can collude. They can collude even when it comes to examinations! That kind of diversity should, therefore, be reflected even at the level of the secretariat. Our experience as a country in the last three months has taught us how important that is. In this regard, therefore, because various bodies and organizations will be identifying membership of committees, the Minister will be identifying some people, the secretary will be identifying some, the council will be identifying others and other Ministers of other Ministries that have nothing to do with accounting will be identifying others. So, it is important that the various organizations, at any particular time, when they are coming up with committees, are able to sit down and consult so that there is no duplication in terms of professions, ethnic groups and in terms of other kinds of key experiences that would be required. In other words, it should not just be a question of writing to a Minister and saying: \"Nominate so and so\", or going to a particular department and asking for a nomination. The people that are doing the nominating should be able to sit down and compare notes, like the two Principals did at Sagana State Lodge, to ensure that there is that diversity. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, during that consultation also, it should be possible to vet those that are to be included as members. It must not be enough for you to be nominated by a Minister to a body like that because even Ministers can make mistakes. It must not be enough for the secretary of the association to nominate you because they can also make mistakes. All of us have knowledge that others are not privy to, and we must bring that together in terms of identifying, not just the membership, but also in terms of vetting to ensure that the body remains credible in the eyes of the public that it serves. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also see an expanded role for KASNEB in terms of harmonizing the various accounting testing bodies. I think now, there are many institutions and colleges that are offering all manner of degrees. But it is not clear that there is adequate co- ordination and harmonization. There are many colleges that are offering various degrees, but it is not clear that there is adequate co-ordination and harmonisation. Some of these colleges offer courses for three months and others for more months. We should get to a point, if that has not yet been achieved, where if you take a course in a technical institution or a university, it should be clear as to how much of that count towards getting you to be registered as an accountant in terms of the credit or the content that you have covered. It is more of a challenge than it sounds. This is a big challenge even for those in the Ministry of Education. There is a variety of institutions that are offering that information. There should be expansion in terms of reviewing the curriculum, so that there is not too much rigidity. KASNEB has been accused of being too rigid to the point that we are losing a lot of our students to the ACCA, the Association of Chartered and Certified Accountants. This is an overseas body that is able to attract many of our potential accountants, because of the kind of curriculum it offers and its international appeal. I think our accountants are also well qualified. Those who are Certified Public Accountants are well respected. It is important to translate that to international recognition, so that our people do not rush to take other international examinations when we have examinations, which are even much better in terms of quality of content. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me go back to the contribution by my friend, Mr. Ethuro, in terms of the problems that we notice in the districts, constituencies and schools. This is an area where accountants can play an outreach kind of role, in terms of the support they can give to our public institutions. I think that should be a requirement. There should be refresher courses for people in Government Ministries, so that if they were recruited before they were fully qualified, they have a chance to update themselves and become the accountants that can provide, at least, the minimum that is expected of a qualified accountant. We need to support to our small businesses and entrepreneurs, so that we do not have business people that are easily cheated out of business. There are a lot of people who run out of business, because they are cheated by quacks who call themselves accountants, auditors or revenue officers. Some of these people cheat because they do not know how to deal with figures. Those 508 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES April 16, 2008 people need support, and this kind of a professional body can go a long way in democratising its services to the majority of the people of this country and institutions. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, there are many questions about meetings. I realise that councils and committees are being formed, but there is no specification as to how many times they should meet in a year. There is no indication as to how much their remuneration should be when they meet. I am saying that because these loopholes are exploited. We have organizations or institutions which hold meetings as they like, so that they can collect allowances. They also fix allowances for themselves depending on the financial needs they have. I think this kind of thing needs to be specified even though we revise them from time to time. There are concerns about the disciplinary committees. While it is okay for there to be a disciplinary committee, and for people to appear before it, we also need to have an idea that the disciplinary committees must be forced by law to have a deadline by which it must respond, so that people do not just wait for too long for their cases to be determined. How do you deal with examination cheating? May be the Institute of Certified Public Accountants of Kenya (ICPAK) can help us, especially at this time when we have come out of the crisis of the Kenya National Examinations Council, to just ensure that we put in place relevant mechanisms to seal all the loopholes, and ensure that leakages are not possible. It has been said that the people who work for KASNEB themselves fail examinations, if they are not properly prepared. It is an indication of the extent to which KASNEB has been professional, and ensures that there are no leakages. We could borrow from that and strengthen it, even if it means going to where the examinations are prepared. You can even go to the United States of America (USA) or Europe, where there is a central body that prepares examinations for all institutions like the GMAT, GRE and so on. May be this is a point to which we have to get to, because it seems that dishonesty is part of our culture. People always find ways of cheating. Therefore, we must try to get them out of that temptation. What I am trying to say is that to strengthen the accountants body even more, we must find ways of strengthening KASNEB to the point that it continues to have even more credibility than it has currently. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, how do you control the numbers? Should accountancy be for anybody, even failures? It is possible to join the accounting profession, even without the basic mastery of certain subjects. I know that we now have bridging programmes. But one way of controlling the glut, and making accountancy a little more of a profession that restricts those who enter it in terms of qualifications that they have--- There must be a requirement about a minimum qualification that you should have even before taking the first set of accounting examinations. There must be a requirement that you have some basic qualification in languages, quantitative subjects and computer knowledge, so that the people who hope to be accountants have some solid grounding before they even begin to take accounting examinations. There is no substitute to solid foundation for any profession. I realise that the Bill is rather gender insensitive. Everywhere, it is talking about the chairman, the vice chairman and so on. We never expect our women to be accountants. I think in this day and age, this is a matter that needs to be addressed by careful editing of the content. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, many of the issues that Mr. Ethuro was talking about relate to the wider context. It is very unfair to ask accountants to take care of the problems of this society. As Parliament, we have the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) reports. How many times do we act on them? Even the debate on them is very limited, leave alone taking action against those who have been found to be guilty. If we do not lead by example, what do we expect from accountants? Go to companies which use all sorts of tricks to try to evade taxes, go through corrupt deals and so on. In terms of auditing itself, especially for honesty, what do you expect? It is very difficult for accountants to be expected to solve the problems of dishonesty. If people are dishonest, they always find ways of cheating, even if they are accountants. So, as we talk about all this, we also need to address the wider context in which our accountants have April 16, 2008 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 509 to operate. Even we, as politicians, are guilty in terms of being not so honest with our own accounts, in trying to influence business deals even when we know there are problems and in terms of not taking action against those who have been found to be guilty. Until we address issues of dishonesty, I think it is going to be very difficult to ask the accounting profession to be the one that completely eliminates problems in the society. With those few remarks, I support."
}