HTTP 200 OK
Allow: GET, PUT, PATCH, DELETE, HEAD, OPTIONS
Content-Type: application/json
Vary: Accept
{
"id": 220958,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/220958/?format=api",
"text_counter": 214,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Mr. Muturi",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 215,
"legal_name": "Justin Bedan Njoka Muturi",
"slug": "justin-muturi"
},
"content": "Yes, the hon. Beth Mugo says \"cows come home\". I do not intend to even see goats. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I begin by stating that I support this Bill. Indeed, if you recall last week, I did indicate that actually this is the Bill that, perhaps, ought to have come before the others, because a lot of reference to it was made in the other two, the Employment Bill and the Labour Relations Bill, which we debated last week. But be that as it may, because we believe that there are good intentions in bringing these Bills, we would want to expeditiously, as requested by the Minister, point out what we think may be necessary. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if you look at the Memorandum of Objects and Reasons, the objective is very clear. The principal object of the Bill is to establish institutions involved in the administration and management of labour relations. These are the National Labour Board, the National Labour Courts, the Subordinate Labour Courts, the Committees of Inquiry, the Wages Council, the Labour Department, the Employment Department and Employment Agency. That, I think, principally explains the objects of the Bill and should, therefore, make it easy for everyone to appreciate. May 17, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 1453 However, I have a few areas where I would want to propose some consideration by the Minister. I will go straight to page 328, the definition section. I have no complaint with the definition about what the Labour Committee of Inquiry is, or the Labour Commissioner. But there is a Deputy Principal Judge. It says: \"The Deputy Principal Judge means the Deputy Principal Judge of the National Labour Court appointed under Section 13\". I would want to propose that for the avoidance of doubt, where the word \"judge\" is used, if you look at the Judicature Act, a judge means a puisne judge or judge of the Court of Appeal, or even the Chief Justice. The definition is one, so that we do not need to give a different definition of who a Deputy Principal Judge is. Looking at Section 13 on the appointment method, there is not such a big contradiction. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, at page 330, there is something which I find a bit strange. It defines something called \"Labour Act\" and says: \"Labour Act includes this Act, the Employment Act, the Labour Relations Act, the Occupational Safety and Health Act, the Work Injury Benefits Act and any other Act administered by the Minister for the time being in charge of labour matters\". This Act already has its own title; it is called the \"Labour Institutions Bill\". It will obviously transform into an Act. Which is this other Labour Act? I think there is something that is not clear. I know it envisages, and that is why it is not conclusive, that in future, should the Ministry or even this House, come up with another law that deals with labour matters, it can also be called a Labour Act. That is not a good law because the practitioners will be referring to specific Acts. When this Bill becomes an Act, people going to court or making complaints, for example, will refer to the specific Act. There is really no need of defining five Acts as Labour Acts and yet, they have been defined by their own establishing pieces of legislation. I would invite my good friend, the Minister, to consider that, when we get to Committee Stage. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, just below that, there is something defined as \"sub- ordinate national labour court\". They say it means:- \"A magistrate's court designated to be international under Section 29--- This does not even make any sense! In the first instance, if you go through this Bill, there is no institution which is referred to as sub-ordinate national labour court. In certain sections though, there is reference to something like \"national\". But the National Labour Court (NLB) is distinct from the sub-ordinate national labour courts. I think the intention is, which is also in the other Bills that we have already discussed, to create sub-ordinate labour courts. I will be pointing out the mistakes that have been made, just for corrections. It is not something that is contentious. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I talked about the definition of the \"Deputy Principal Judge\" as stated on page 328. Just below that, there is definition of a \"Principal Judge\". The two of them can be merged. That definition can also encompass the \"Deputy Principal Judge.\" That is the way it is done. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, at page 331, of course, Section 4 of Part I of the Bill says:- \"This Act shall not apply to- (a) the armed forces or the reserve as respectively defined in the Armed Forces Act; (b) the Kenya Police, the Kenya Prisons Service or the Administration Police Force; and (c) the National Youth Service, but subject to the foregoing, the Act shall bind the Government.\" I would like to remind the Minister what I said last week. We want to see where the position of the staff of the Parliamentary Service Commission (PSC) falls. Is the PSC bound like the Government is bound? Even the staff here, and I envision a situation where they will be many at some point, they may also require to form themselves into a union. They should enjoy either the same privileges as enjoyed by public servants, mainstream Civil Service and teachers. They should 1454 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES May 17, 2007 enjoy such benefits as enjoyed by other workers elsewhere. I want some thoughts to go to those people. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Part II is on the National Labour Board (NLB). That is a welcome move. But I do not think there has been provided a process by which the Minister will be appointing the chairperson and the deputy chairperson. We need to be told how that will be done. Clause 6(1)(a) says:- \"The Board shall consist the following members appointed by the Minister, who shall be Kenyan citizens of good moral and intellectual standing- (a) a chairperson and a deputy chairperson, both of whom have experience in labour relations matters;\" Nobody advises the Minister! He just walks around the streets of Nairobi, Mombasa and Kisumu and meets somebody who makes a lot of noise over labour matters and says:\"You can be the chairperson\". Maybe, we should in-build some process that the Minister should consult whatever body, either the employers' organisations or employees' organisations when he is making the appointment. He can consult. How he goes about it is a matter that he will tell us. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, at page 333, the last bit before we get to Clause 6(2), there is something that needs to be corrected there. Among the people who will comprise the NLB as stated in Clause 6(1)(f) is:- \"not more than two other independent members.\" Independent of what? Are we saying that they are not employers or employees? Are we saying that we want churchmen, kadhis or farmers? If they are farmers, for example, they will not be independent if they have workers. So, independent of what? That needs to be made clearer than it is now. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Clause 6(4) says:- \"The Minister may, on the advice of the Board, amend the Schedule.\" I just want to point out the following because Clause 6(3) says:- \"The provisions of the Schedule shall apply with respect to the Board.\" I have gone through the Schedule and I have seen what they are saying it will apply to. It is good. But to the extent that the Minister may, on the advice of the Board, amend the Schedule, which is part of the main law, may mean that, that amendment may have the effect of actually even amending the law itself. We need to synchronize that to say which will be the better thing. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Clause 7(1)(g) says:- \"The functions of the Board are to advise the Minister on- (g) systems of labour inspections and the adminstration of Labour Acts;\" That should be considered. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as reflected on page 336, I am happy with the functions of NLB and what the Secretary to the Board is expected to do. But where we talk about labour inspection services, where the Secretary is required by statute to do something, it would be important for him or her to publish those inspection reports. That way, the employers, employees or their organisations will know that, indeed, that was carried out as expected in the law. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think there is a contradiction in Part III of the Bill. What the Minister is trying to do here is to go by what is in our current Constitution. The qualification for somebody to be appointed an Appeal Judge is only seven years. Over the years, we have said that, that requirement is a bit too low. It may have made a lot of sense soon after Independence because we did not have a lot of indigenous people who were qualified and had experience of more than seven years. But, today, the right thinking--- Even when we were at Bomas, we said that we should raise that threshold to, at least, 15 years. We want mature people to be appointed to NLB. We do not want people of seven years experience. Some of those youths may May 17, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 1455 find it very difficult. Just like Mr. Mungatana said when he was seconding the Bill, part of the reason why one may think people are not experienced in a particular way or do not know any particular aspect of the law is because of inexperience. If you look at what is provided for in Clauses 11 and 12--- What is in Clause 12 is a reproduction of what is in Clause 11. They need to be synchronized. Clause 11(4) says:- \"The National Labour Court shall be constituted by a judge sitting with two members.\" If you move on further, Clause 11(5) says:- \"The principal judge and the deputy principal judge of the National Labour Court shall- (a) be puisne judges; and (b) have knowledge, experience and expertise in labour laws and industrial relations.\" Clause 11(6) further says:- \"The deputy principal judge shall act as principal judge, whenever the principal judge is unable to do so.\" I welcome the fact that even the Chief Justice will seek the concurrence and advice of members of NLC. It is not fair to leave the Chief Justice to appoint any judge to sit in the National Labour Courts. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was referring to clauses 12 and 13. They need to be synchronised because one reproduces the other, almost verbatim, especially with regard to experience and qualification. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister, when replying, should explain Clause 15(1). It says:- \"The Minister, shall on the advice of the Board, appoint 16 members of the National Labour Court or such other additional members as may be advised by the Board for a term of not more than three years\". Why is the figure 16? We want to understand the rationale of the figure. Is it because they are two from every province? Are we not imagining that we could have more provinces than the eight we have today? What is the rationale? We need to understand that."
}