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"id": 51999,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/51999/?format=api",
"text_counter": 391,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Mr. Kiunjuri",
"speaker_title": "The Assistant Minister for Public Works",
"speaker": {
"id": 175,
"legal_name": "Festus Mwangi Kiunjuri",
"slug": "mwangi-kiunjuri"
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"content": " Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to join other Members in supporting this Bill. I do so because for the last 14 years that I have been here, I have been able to follow debates in this House and at one time, Parliament has not given these Bills a close look. That is why we have always been facing problems. Even currently, we are facing a problem with the new Constitution just because we decided to omit one thing or the other. Just because we could not agree on a few issues, we took the Constitution to the people the way it is and we were not able to amend what was very crucial for us. Today, we can see that we are calling for amendments to the same Constitution. That is because we could not sit down as brothers and sisters, put this country first in our hearts and know that this Constitution and this country will be there and it will outlive all of us. I also remember that before the General Elections of 1997, an able team from the opposition put on a strong fight and came up with the Inter-Party Parliamentary Group (IPPG). Once again the issue in question was that of leveling the playing ground. We expected that the then Government would have allowed Kenyans to have proper rules of engagement and have a law that will be able to pass the test of time. Today, we are here once again, because in 2002, we could not agree on the appointment of this body to oversee the elections. As a result, this country has never been threatened into civil war the way it was three to four years ago. We should learn from history and be able for the first time do the proper knitting when it comes to addressing this Bill. We should all be very much alert and not be scared of the size of this Bill. Even if we come up with a document as big as a Bible, it is important to incorporate everything that we feel is very necessary so that nobody will talk about issues that we have forgotten. That is why I would urge hon. Members that even if it takes another three days to debate this Bill or even if it will take us time to go out for a treat so that we can agree on this Bill, then let it be so. That is because this might end up being the alpha and omega of our politics. If we go wrong on this Bill, it means that once again, we will end up with chaos come the next general elections. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the question that we should ask ourselves here is whether this Bill is really important. For me, the rules of engagement are not proper and we cannot be able to determine whether we want peace or war in this country. That can only be determined by this document. If we really have the interest of the country and the dignity of our own people, then we should be able to agree on this important Bill. Today, we are being mocked internationally because we are a country that was supposed to set an example for other African countries, but we lost all that because we cannot trust each other. We have the best brains in this country. We have a Parliament here that is full of professionals but we just want to serve our own interests. We come here and pretend that we are fighting for the interests of our people but we are fighting for our own small interests. For example, whom do I support so that I am in this or that position tomorrow or who can support me when I am doing this or that? Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, when we decide that we have a country then trust me we shall be able to come up with a Bill, hence an Act of Parliament that will be for prosperity. The problem we have is that we play hide and seek, laying traps, harbouring hidden agenda and playing dangerous cards for each other. There are some of us who might have tried to lay traps in it. I say, âmight have triedâ. There are people who already know what they want in this document, and that cannot stand the time of nationalism. If you are really a nationalist, why are you just looking at what will happen in the next one year? Unfortunately or fortunately at my age I am seeing my kids grow; I really want this country to be at peace. This is because in the next 20 years I will still have a toddler in the house. I care a lot. I really would not be able to go for a system that tomorrow is going to hurt my daughter. I look at all these things. That is why, for example, Laikipia and Nanyuki towns are cosmopolitan and have all the tribes; almost every tribe in this country has a village in Laikipia. There was nothing during the post- election violence. Being a Christian, I know whatever goes round will always come round. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is good that we will have a platform for politicking whenever we want to politic. Let us know for sure that if anything happens in this country, we will all have to taste it. During the post-election violence I was sometimes wondering how to get to Laikipia. I stay at around Hurlingham but going through the city centre to Kasarani and into Nanyuki was a nightmare, because I did not know who was on the road. Therefore, nobody can pretend that when there is no peace in this country they can have peace for some people. We should look at this Bill objectively. I have looked at it and there must be clarity. I have looked at the functions of the commissioners and the secretary. It is very important that you look at it. We should make sure that we do not go back to a repeat of what we did after the post-election violence, where we entered into a National Accord, which is tying us together today. We do not have a Chief Justice because we cannot interpret, today, the meaning of âconcurrenceâ and âconsultationâ. If we cannot interpret this, it is important that we have clear separation of powers between the commissioners and the secretary. If you look at the powers given to the secretary--- If you appoint me a secretary today, with these powers, I will never even consult the commissioners themselves, even in a single day. Why? We have looked at the role of the commissioners as laid out here and they are going to be non-executive. They will be summoned to come and work, formulate policies and then go. That is very good for an advanced country. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not saying we are not advanced, but if this Bill was for United Kingdom (UK) and other countries, I would say it is fine. However, we have not learnt to respect institutions. I am not saying that the Minister erred, but let us live in our time. We pretended to make a Constitution which we do not understand even today. Some of us do not understand it; maybe some of my colleagues are lucky to understand it. It is so complex that even the Americans themselves have difficulty following it. It is our own creation. It is our own Constitution; nobody has ever experienced that kind of a Constitution. Today, let us accept our limitations. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the fact of the matter is that if we want to have commissioners, give them powers. Let them be in charge. If you want to give powers to the secretary let the powers go to the secretary. There is no question about it. If the powers in this Bill are given to me, I want to assure you that I will exercise them fully. I want to assure you that what is happening today is that we have a Managing Director, or Chief Executive Officer of a parastatal or a State Corporation; this person who call meetings. The chairmen who are supposed to head those corporations, or parastatals, are rendered irrelevant. Take all the Managing Directors we have today; none of them will listen to the chairman. There is lobbying where CEOs make five directors go to five or ten committees. When a Managing Director wants favours he can call them to go to Mombasa and others to Seychelles, depending on how they want to play about with them. We should not create this situation in this Commission, where the secretary will call upon three or four commissioners, or even the chairman to play certain roles that cannot be questioned. It is important for this first Commission to have commissioners with the powers that they deserve. As we advance, we can say we are becoming disciplined and experienced; so, let us cut the expenses and either have the commissioners or the secretary to be in charge. For now I would propose that the secretary answers to the commissioners; let him be given his role; let him know for sure that the commissioners are in charge, or remove all the commissioners and leave all the work to the secretary. That way, we will be doing a favour to this country. It will be good for all of us. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I argue because I have read Schedule Six of the Constitution of the Republic of Kenya. Section 31 is very clear about the existing officers. They have already been protected. There is no way we can come here to argue that we can remove anybody from office now. The Constitution is very clear. You cannot contravene the Constitution. It is very clear that the secretariat will be in charge, but let us not argue just because I do not like a person; that way we shall be making a Constitution for an individual. Let us sober up; let us have the existing offices respected. By the end of the day I have a lot of respect for the existing electoral body. I pay tribute to them. After the elections that were conducted, much as you would want to say--- As usual politicians never go to the tallying station when defeated, and always never accept any defeat; give the devil his own due. The fact of the matter is that they have worked very hard. They are all qualified, including those who were members of the Interim Independent Boundaries Review Commission (IIBRC). They are all qualified and can continue with the job. However, what I am saying is, Mr. Ligale has his own rights; we should not challenge him because he was not good for me or you. This Commission is so important. This is the Commission that is going to do the delimitation of boundaries. It is the Commission that is going to make sure that the rules of engagement will be followed properly. Let us separate powers of the Commissioners from those of the secretariat. Lastly, you are also aware that Kenyans have become so litigant that even today a person who is not shortlisted for a job, will go to court to argue his or her case. Let us not have a Bill that will make us have people in court day in day out. For example, the functions of the commissioners have been laid out; they have not addressed a simple question of who is going to designate polling stations or who is going to announce election results. These are so crucial. They are the nitty gritty that we must tie together. There is no way we can pretend that we can have trust in each other in the beginning. Let us look at all these issues. Let us avoid litigation. Look at the question of discrimination. It is very clear in our new Constitution that we shall never discriminate. Already what are we starting with in this Bill? We have said we have a limitation on the age of commissioners. We have not even been able to set the age of the President. It was contested at the Bomas of Kenya during the writing of the Constitution that we did not come up with. We might have people who are 70 years old; I say this out of respect for Mr. ole Ntimama. His argument can be more sober than that of a 30-year old or 20-year old. So, we cannot say that because somebody is 70 years old they cannot serve in this Commission. Let every person be tested; even if you say that, it will be challenged in a court of law. I will go to the court tomorrow and say that this Act is discriminative. I will challenge it. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, look at the powers given to other Commissions, for example the Commission on the Implementation of the Constitution (CIC). They have already appointed their chairman to be their spokesman. He even has a lot of powers. Why do we want to discriminate against one constitutional office? This will be a Commission like any other commission. It will be a constitutional commission. If we are going to have a law to guide only one commission, then it will be discriminative and will be challenged in a court of law. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, when we get to the Committee Stage, let us agree. It is important for us to lobby. We had a meeting or a caucus today as hon. Members. I encourage that those caucuses be extended to every hon. Member of Parliament. Let us not have an ODM one; let us not have a PNU one or a Grand National Union one, where I am the Chairman."
}