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"speaker_name": "Mr. Orengo",
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"id": 129,
"legal_name": "Aggrey James Orengo",
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"content": "Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, from the records, it looks like even the green card that we have that was introducing the system is not the original green card. The activity that led to those unfortunate circumstances is one that we keep on appealing. I am glad that the relevant Parliamentary Committee, even as you read the report on Syokimau, says the only end to this kind of fraud is not just convictions, but introducing a land information system that is going to bring all these things to an end."
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Mr. Orengo",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 129,
"legal_name": "Aggrey James Orengo",
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"content": "We are hoping that Treasury will read this new situation and give the Ministry the requisite funds to create a land information system that will not require any kind of human intervention. So, whereas I agree to some extent that there has been a problem from within, all that is happening because whenever you have human intervention, then records, whether in courts or immigration, tend to offer an opportunity to those who do not want to do things the right way. The way forward is to have a land information system that even from your office, your house or from your telephone, you can be able to check land records without having to go to Ardhi House. That, really, would be the solution."
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Mr. Shakeel",
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"speaker": {
"id": 140,
"legal_name": "Ahmed Shakeel Shabbir Ahmed",
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"content": "Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Minister for the answer. But I would like to ask him whether he could kindly also look at the issue of fraudulent title deeds that have been issued for the airport land in Kisumu. That land has been grabbed. So, before we see the sort of demolitions that took place in Nairobi, could you kindly look at that as a supplementary?"
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Mr. Orengo",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 129,
"legal_name": "Aggrey James Orengo",
"slug": "james-orengo"
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"content": "Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is a totally different question. But whenever an issue like this has been brought to my notice, even Mr. Olago Aluoch is a witness---. If you give information and I find the facts are true, without thinking about the consequences so long as a title deed is based on fraud, I always oblige, especially if it is a Member of Parliament, by proceeding to expunge such kind of title deed from our records. I can tell you - and I want to plead with you - that a lot of fraud--- In fact, if you look at the recent events - and the Parliamentary Committee will tell you that - the basis of a lot of those frauds were in the period between1993 and 2002. So, we are dealing with embolic corruption at some point in our history which we have not completely wiped out. But I think with the support of this House, we will continue to do our best."
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"id": 1545,
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Mr. Orengo",
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"speaker": {
"id": 129,
"legal_name": "Aggrey James Orengo",
"slug": "james-orengo"
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"content": "Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you will allow me to say this. I want to invite all hon. Members to a workshop in which I want all Members of Parliament to look at all the land legislation which we have drafted. I do not want it to go the Cabinet or to any other institution before Members of Parliament look at it. I think here is how we are going to resolve that problem. When we send letters to you, please come. I think if we resolve the land issue, a lot of our problems will have gone. The workshop will be in Mombasa."
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"id": 1546,
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Dr. Khalwale",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 170,
"legal_name": "Bonny Khalwale",
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"content": "On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Mr. Orengo, has been quoted severally, both as a Minister for Lands and before he became a Minister, telling Kenyans that he is going to implement the Ndung’u Report on public land which was fraudulently acquired. Is he in order to ask hon. Members to give him a solution, when he already has the instrument which he can use to recover public land?"
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"id": 1547,
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Mr. Orengo",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 129,
"legal_name": "Aggrey James Orengo",
"slug": "james-orengo"
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"content": "Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just want to jog Dr. Khalwale’s memory. When somebody grabbed a plot along Mombasa Road, he came to me and within a month, the land was back in the hands of the public. The Ndung’u Report is just a small component of how to deal with the land sector. In that workshop, I will present to Members of Parliament how many acres of land we have recovered by trying to implement the Ndung’u Report. But ithout a statutory framework, there are many problems that we are confronted with. Some are to do with natural justice. For example, can you revoke without giving somebody an opportunity of being heard? Mr. Ruto raised that before in this House. In order to deal with historical land grabbing, decisive action has to be taken. Whenever reports have been made to me about any land that is in the Ndung’u and there are sufficient records that the land was grabbed, I have not hesitated to take any action. I think we have actually recovered more than 2,000 pieces of land, some as small a quarter an acre and some of them as large as 4,000 acres. We go back to the Ndung’u Report and ensure that the public gets back its assets."
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Mr. Deputy Speaker",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Mr. Olago, are you satisfied or do you want to ask the final question?"
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Mr. Olago",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 5,
"legal_name": "John Olago Aluoch",
"slug": "john-aluoch"
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"content": "Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, while I am happy that St. Antony Dago Kokore Secondary School will get back its land soon, the problem of fraudulent land transactions is endemic in this country, particularly in Kisumu where persons pretending to be land agents and brokers collude with land registry officials to register false transactions. I am glad that action has been taken in Kisumu, arrests have been made and people have been charged. As we do that, St. Antony Dago Kokore Secondary School is just one incident. What further action is the Minister taking to ensure that the land registry in Kisumu is educated not to collude with criminals in registering false transactions?"
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Mr. Orengo",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 129,
"legal_name": "Aggrey James Orengo",
"slug": "james-orengo"
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"content": "We have an ongoing programme of trying to computerize certain registries like Kisumu, Thika and Mombasa and some of the busy registries. So long as we have to deal with manual records where registration and transactions require human intervention--- If that continues to be the obtaining situation, it is going to be very difficult to deal with land problems and fraud in the land sector. I want to assure Mr. Olago that we are going to have a land registry in Kisumu that is computerized. Short of that, Dr. Otichillo will tell you - because he has worked with us closely on this matter - that even if the Pope was the Commission of Lands, the problems will still occur. Even if we had all the bishops in this country employed as land registrars, we will still have those problems. That is because we have a situation where religious organizations have grabbed land. When you want to recover it, they invoke the name of God. In that kind of situation, what can we do?"
}
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