Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:- THAT, aware that the practice of herbal medicine and the use of herbal pharmaceutical products is widespread in Kenya today in spite of the lack of a clear policy and legal framework; appreciating the need to establish a policy and legal framework to facilitate the practice of herbal medicine and recognition of herbal pharmaceutical products; this House urges the Government to formulate a policy and legislative framework for the practice of herbal medicine and use of herbal pharmaceutical products including establishing the necessary institutional oversight and regulatory bodies, standards of practice and for matters incidental thereto and connected therewith.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following two Motions:-
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I would like to bring to the attention of the Chair that I have not been supplied with a written answer to my Question. However, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Special Programmes the following Question by Private Notice. (a) How much relief food has been allocated to Samburu District per month since April 2009 to date and what was the population targeted? Could the Minister provide a breakdown of food distribution per location during that period? (b) Under what circumstances did some locations like Ngare Narok, Ndonyo- Wasin, Uaso West and Engile Central miss out on relief food for up to four months? (c) How many locations have not received the August 2009 allocation? (d) Could the Minister also provide the membership of the District Food Distribution Committee and clarify whether or not it has been operationalized?
Is anyone here from the Ministry of State for Special Programmes? We will revisit that Question a little later.
Next Question, Member for Gichugu!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security the following Question by Private Notice. What is the Government doing about the disappearance of Ms. Assunta Wanjiku Gichuki of Kibingo in Kerugoya Kutus Constituency who was taken away from her house by vigilantes on 11th of June 2009?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think the police and the Government are not interested in investigating this matter. You will note, from the answer given, which is a repeat because the Question was deferred last time, that this matter was reported to the police by the brother-in-law who also wrote to the Minister â I tabled the letter â and the President. The police never investigated the matter until I asked the Question in Parliament. Now, the Assistant Minister claims that the lady was seen in Mbeere District. I had already given information from the relatives that a day after abduction, she was forced to withdraw money at the ATM. If, indeed, what the Minister is saying is true and is a result of serious investigation, and since this matter had been reported, what other investigations have the police undertaken other than to come and give us names of owners of motor vehicles? They are not telling us whether they investigated the whereabouts of those motor vehicles on that day or not! From whom is the Assistant
Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is certain information I will share with the hon. Member without necessarily mentioning it here. This is because the information might jeopardize the investigation. I have the abducteesâ names with me which I will share with her. I have a statement written by the daughter of Ms. Wanjiku. I will read just one paragraph. It states thus: âThe daughter also mentioned in her statement that she saw the three kidnappers who were asking her mother where the title deed of their land was, why she had refused to cook for the son, David Wachira Gichuki and whether she was present when her late husband was issuing instructions to the brother-in-law with regard to subdivision of the landâ. I have the names of the people who abducted the lady and I will share that information with the hon. Member. I cannot disclose the names here simply because the police are making very good leads and are about to apprehend these fellows in order for them to appear before court. This is literally a family matter, but I will give her the information. I do not want to give it to her publicly.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it right for the Assistant Minister to mislead this House? He is giving contradictory answers! He said that the lady was living in a relativeâs house, but she has now disappeared. The Assistant Minister does not have consistent answers. Is he in order to mislead this House?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wonder whether the hon. Member, who is a friend of mine, understands what a contradictory statement is. I said very clearly that the lady stayed with her daughter and later on went to visit her son. After that, she disappeared. She was being taken to her relatives so that she could remove the title deed which the brother-in-law wants to take from her by force. âBy forceâ means without negotiating. It is common knowledge that in that area, people are forced to give out their title deeds when it comes to issues of succession of land. So, that is the position as we speak.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister tell us when the police are likely to conclude investigations in order for these people to be brought to book?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the issue of when should not arise as at now. This is because I have to first arrest the fellows who abducted this lady. They will then be taken to court. So, I cannot give a time frame; it could even be tonight or tomorrow morning. Both the councilor and the abductees are in hiding, but the police are making very good leads in order to arrest these fellows. We are going to do it.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the issue of people disappearing in Central Province is very common. In my constituency, two weeks ago, four people disappeared and they have not yet been traced. Could the Assistant Minister tell us when this matter of people disappearing will come to an end in Nairobi and Central Provinces?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have said it on several occasions that if you know you are being targeted by kidnappers, you need to create a commotion so that members of the public can know that something unique is happening to you. We are dealing with the issue of Mungiki and we have done very well. These things that are happening now will be a thing of the past. As we are speaking now, we have arrested
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is important that the Assistant Minister becomes very clear. He has said that the lady was found in Mbeere in July, 2009. She was kidnapped in June, 2009. He is talking of investigating about her kidnappers. So, the Assistant Minister is agreeing that the lady was kidnapped. Are the police serious with investigations? The report about her kidnapping was made on 11th June, 2009. The police never bothered at all and only sent a signal when the matter was raised in Parliament. Is the Government condoning disappearance and extra judicial killings in Central Province, and especially in Kirinyaga?
Order, Member of Parliament for Gichugu! This is Question Time! You have asked two questions, and you are continuing. The Standing Orders say that you ask one supplementary question at a time.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is one-and-half Question!
I have given you that indulgence!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, from the investigations report, the lady was kidnapped or forcefully taken away by her family members. I am saying that the same lady, Wanjiku, visited her relatives. That gives us the very simple conclusion that Wanjiku is still alive. If nothing bad has happened to her, we are happy that she is still alive because she visited her relatives. She even managed to speak to her son and daughter. So, let us hope that she is still alive. If she is still being followed by the so- called âkidnappersâ, I would want her to report to the police station, so that we can accord her the necessary protection.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Next Question by the Member of Parliament for Ikolomani!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security the following Question by Private Notice. What is the legality and viability of the newly created districts in view of the recent judgement by the Kisii Resident Judge, declaring them illegal?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would seek the indulgence of the Chair to defer this Question because my colleague had already started answering it, and he will be back on Thursday. So, I would request the Chair to defer the Question until Tuesday, next week.
Member of Parliament for Ikolomani, do I have your concurrence to defer this Question to Tuesday next week?
Yes, but only if he has a plausible reason, because this Question has never been answered at any stage, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Can he give a better reason as to why it is not being answered now?
Yes, Assistant Minister!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, unfortunately, my colleague is travelling all the way from Samburu. He will be here by Thursday. So, I am only requesting the hon. Questioner to allow us to answer the Question on Tuesday next week. If my colleague will not be here then, I will be able to answer it.
Order, Dr. Khalwale! That, to me, sounds plausible. In the Office of the President, Assistant Ministers are allocated duties. This particular Question, for the moment, is seized with the Hon. Lesrima. So, it is deferred to Tuesday next week.
Next Question by the Member of Parliament for Kisumu Town West!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Why, in spite of the operationalization of the Public Procurement and Disposal Act nearly two-and-half years ago, the post of Director-General of the Public Procurement and Oversight Authority has remained vacant? (b) How has the failure to appoint a substantive Director-General impacted on the Authorityâs national and international operations? (c) When will the appointment be made?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to beg the indulgence of the House on this particular Question because we are not ready with the answer. We had communicated already to the hon. Member. We will be able to give a comprehensive answer if this Question can be put off until Tuesday or Wednesday, next week.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is true that I got a telephone call from the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance this morning. However, this Question is by Private Notice, and it was posted on the Order Paper on the last day before we went on recess. After we left the Floor, Dr. Oburu Odinga informed me that he had got the answer. So, I was expecting that this afternoon, the answer would be brought to the Floor.
Hon. Member for Kisumu Town West, I have heard your sentiments but the Chair is also aware that this House has kept the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance extremely busy over the past seven days or so. So, he has not quite had enough time at his desk. Therefore, the Question is deferred to Wednesday, next week.
The Member of Parliament for Kitui West! Is Mr. Nyamai not here?
What is it, Mr. I. Muoki?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I understand that Mr. Nyamai is in Singapore for Parliamentary Business on the Constituencies Development Fund. Maybe, he did not leave word to that effect. Therefore, it would be appropriate for you to defer the Question until he comes back.
On the face of it, that is a good reason but the Chair had no notice of the fact that he was part of that delegation. Nevertheless the Question is deferred to ten days after today.
Next Question by the Member of Parliament for Lari!
asked the Minister for Co-operative Development and Marketing:- (a) why dairy farmers in Lari Constituency, who delivered their milk to Westlands Dairy Limited between 1999-2000, have not been paid; and, (b) what steps the Minister is taking to ensure that the dairy farmers are paid their dues immediately.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Question is about dairy farmers, and was sent to the Ministry of Co-operative Development. So, I would like to have some advice as to whether I should address the Question as relating to dairy co-operatives or to dairy farmers?
Assistant Minister, I think what is important is the content of the answer. If it answers the Question, then it does not matter to the House which Ministry gives the answer.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I will answer in the context of dairy co-operative farmers.
I beg to answer. (a) Three dairy co-operative societies in Lari Constituency are owed Kshs4,110,511 by Westlands Dairy Limited, a private milk processor. This debt is still outstanding to the three co-operative societies because Westlands Dairy Limited was put under receivership and subsequently sold to a second owner. (b)The three dairy co-operative societies owed money by Westlands Dairy Limited were advised to seek legal redress because the contract was between the co- operative societies and a private entity.
The Member of Parliament for Lari!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, while I appreciate the positive answer given by the Assistant Minister on the three co-operative societies, my concern and interest was not on these three co-operative societies. My Question was based on 31 innocent farmers who supplied milk worth Kshs1,843,815 to Westlands Dairy Limited. There are 31 petitioners whose money, for the last ten years, has not been paid. This is the money I am asking the Assistant Minister to tell this House when those innocent farmers are going to be paid. I am not asking about the three co-operative societies indicated by the Minister. When the issue of the three co-operative societies arises, I will address it.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Ministry of Co-operative Development and Marketing comes in only when it is Westlands Dairy Limited who have not paid money. The hon. Member should say who owes these farmers the money then. According to the way the Question is framed, it is asking about Westlands Dairy Limited, who owes money to three co-operative societies. We deal with co-operative societies in the Ministry. Kirita, Gatamaiyo and Kinale Dairy Farmers Co-operative Societies had supplied milk between the period 1999-2000; to Westlands Dairy Limited.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to be understood very clearly by the Assistant Minister that her answer is very elaborate and very specific. However, my Question is about 31 individual farmers, and not the co-operative societies, who supplied their milk individually to Westlands Dairy Limited but who up to now have not been paid. The responsibility of giving authorisation to the management of this limited company is within the powers of the Ministry.
Yes, Assistant Minister!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I can only advise my colleague to get the 31 farmers who supplied milk to Western Dairies to get legal redress. Maybe they need to see the Attorney-General. I talk on behalf of Dairy Cooperative Societies.
Last question, Mr. Njuguna!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in my very humble observation, the Assistant Minister is becoming evasive. It is the responsibility of the Assistant Minister to request the Attorney-General to prosecute this individual company for failure to meet its own legal obligation.
Order! Assistant Minister, you need not respond to that.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I oblige.
Next question by Member for Eldama Ravine!
asked the Minister for Roads:- (a) to table the allocation of funds from the Fuel Levy Fund for the years 2007/2008 and 2008/2009 in accordance with the provisions of the Kenya Roads Board Act which requires equitable distribution of 24 per cent of such funds to all districts; and, (b) the parameters used in arriving at the distribution.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. Mr. Speaker, Sir, allow me to refer you to the HANSARD Report of Wednesday 16th September 2009 where I adequately answered this Question. It was however, referred for the purposes of the Member to study the tabled documents so that he may ask questions. Would I be in order, Mr. Speaker, Sir, to request you to ask Members to ask their questions?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to take this opportunity to ask supplementary questions. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister indicated in part âbâ of his answer the parameters that determine the distribution to each district. Could he tell us how much the listed items contribute to the amount of money given? What, for example, does the area of a district contribute in determining how much a district gets?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as the hon. Member has said, I have clearly indicated the parameters used to determine the amount of money that is used. They include, the district area, district population, road inventory for the district in kilometers, road surface type (whether paved or unpaved), the terrain (mountainous or hilly), rainfall, economic activities, traffic population and allocations from other sources. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this will definitely determine the weight. For instance, Nairobi City roads are given first priority because over 60 per cent of the Roads Maintenance Levy Fund (RMLF) is collected within urban areas with the larger portion coming from Nairobi City whose population, as you know, is approaching five million. On the basis of this, Nairobi itself takes about 25 per cent of the levy collected leaving the rest; about 75 per cent of the 24 per cent of that allocation for the other districts.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance in his Budget Speech issued a directive which was at variance with the Kenya Roads Board Act. Could the Assistant Minister for Roads tell us, in spite of that variance, what he is doing to ensure that the Constituencies Development Fund (CDF) is the agency for distributing those particular funds.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, although the answer should have been more appropriate from the Minister for Finance, I will however say that the Minister for Roads has undertaken to negotiate with the Ministry of Finance plus the Committee that oversees the road network building in this country, to come up with a proper formula on the constitution of the members of committees that will manage the funds that we allocated as per the instructions of the Minister for Finance. You will soon be informed of this formula. I think Members have already started receiving letters on this issue.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am definitely not satisfied with the response by the Assistant Minister so far. However, what parameters did he use? The Kenya Roads Board Act requires that he distributes these funds equitably to all districts; just like the CDF Act requires equitable distribution to all constituencies. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to refer the Assistant Minister to his distribution in the year 2007/2008 when he decided to give Nairobi â I do not know whether Nairobi is a district â Kshs250 million against Kshs4 million given to Koibatek District. What parameters did he use to decide that it is equitable to give Nairobi Kshs250 million and Koibatek District Kshs4 million?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg your indulgence that I use a few minutes to explain to the Member these issues. The Kenya Roads Board Act provides broad guidelines for allocation of the projected collections of the RMLF to road agencies within any financial year. The equitable portion of the RMLF to be disbursed to districts is derived directly from the projected collections. After identifying the ceiling broadly, the equitable portion of the RMLF is allocated to:- (a)The Roads Department to complete on-going projects. (b) The Ministry of Local Government to fund maintenance of Roads. (c)The balance is equitably distributed to all the 71 districts as per the number of districts at that time. It is anticipated, therefore, that with time, the equitable portion allocated to the roads department reduces the balances to direct disbursement and the Ministry of Local Government that he is querying about Nairobi, will increase with the counterparts contributions. It should be understood that every local authority, and I mean the cities, municipalities and town councils, is found within a district. They form the economic centres of the rural communities. The district can contribute to poverty alleviation and wealth creation of the rural people. Funding, therefore, and improvement of infrastructure within these local authorities contributes to the socio-economic improvement of the rural communities and is very much governed by the parameters that I have already said. Certainly the population of Nairobi is far much higher than that of Koibatek and hence the difference in the amounts allocated.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, definately he has not answered my question. Yes, he attempted to answer it on the basis of what I told him about Nairobi and
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not know which districts he is referring to. However, the way it has been calculated by the Ministry affects all districts and towns in this country. My list here shows Mombasa and Kisumu cities were allocated some money. Definitely, there is an amount of money allocated to all local authorities in the country. It is, indeed, important to note that every district in this country is allocated some money either through equitable distribution method or per district.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister says---
Order! Mr. Lessonet, I think that settles that matter. Member for Yatta Constituency, Mr. C. Kilonzo is away like Mr. Nyamai. So, his Question is similarly deferred to ten days from today.
asked the Minister for Forestry and Wildlife: (a) why the 29 families who have lived in Mtwapa Creek in Kilifi since 1963 are being evicted by a forest officer;, and, (b) Whether he could lift the eviction order or provide alternative land to the families.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) My Ministry has issued an eviction notice to two families and not 29 families who have illegally encroached on part of the Mtwapa Forest. This decision has been taken to protect the fragile mangrove forest in the area which is currently under rehabilitation. It is expected that this move will deliver more benefits to the community through environmental conservation as the area is a renowned breeding site for fish and other marine wildlife. (b) My Ministry does not intend to rescind the decision to evict the two families as the forest is intended to serve the common good of the whole community around Mtwapa Creek. On the issue of alternative land to resettle the two families, my Ministry will make recommendation to the Minister for land to give the two families a priority consideration to settle them on alternative land.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am very satisfied with the answer given by the Assistant Minister.
That then rests the matter! Next Question, Member for Molo!
asked the Minister of State for Special Programmes what steps she will take to ensure that the suppliers of the materials used to construct the housing units for the IDP returnees in Molo Constituency under the operation Rudi Nyumbani Programme are paid their dues by the NGOs contracted.
Anyone here from the Ministry of State for Special Programmes? Anybody holding brief for her? Yes, the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I can only say that the Minister is not available and neither is the assistant Minister. I will ask the Chair to defer the Question to tomorrow afternoon.
Deferred to when?
Tomorrow afternoon! Hon. Members, particularly members of the Front Bench, I think there is no gain repeating what we have observed previously that the House takes failure by Ministers to be present to answer Questions seriously in addition to the fact that it amounts to disorderly conduct. I hope that during the remainder of this session, this habit will cease and cease effectively. So that Question is deferred to Tuesday, next week. The Minister is on notice that she must come with a plausible explanation, failing which she will be subject to sanctions. Next Question, Member for Mwea!
asked the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government:- (a)why Kirinyaga County Council has not had a qualified County Clerk for the last 12 years and when he will post one with requisite qualifications;
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) I am aware that the county council of Kirinyaga has not had a qualified clerk for over ten years. On various occasions, my Ministry has posted qualified clerks to the County Council of Kirinyaga, but local leaders have been contesting the transfers. A case in point is the transfer of Mr. Francis Maina Gathura to the council vide my office letter reference Number C1C58 dated 8th May, 2009. However, another qualified clerk was posted vide my officer letter dated 19th of August, 2009 and I have attached the copy to the Question. (b) The posting of the clerks to the station was decided after an appeal by the local leaders. Further I wish to state that there are have been no special interests the officer has been serving for the last 12 years. (c) The officer has only served in the county council since he was employed in the council in 1976.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to thank the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local government for the answer. How come that an officer has served for 33 years in the same council and in the same post for 12 years? The same council says the officer is actually not qualified t o be a clerk. Is he conceding that the Ministry is being intimidated by the local leaders not to post a qualified officer to come and serve the residents of Kirinyaga who are also tax payers just like any other Kenyans?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Ministry is not being intimidated. However, we have to take into account the fact that a local authority is also an entity which is led by politicians. We have to try and come to an understanding when we are dealing with some of these things. It is not a question of the Ministry being intimidated at all.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Minister confirm to the House that under the stewardship of Mrs. Miano, Kirinyaga County council has been one of the better run councils? From a position of deficit, the council was steered to prosperity and that has annoyed land grabbers and those who intend to steal from the council. Could he confirm that the council is one of the better run in the country?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, at this point in time, definitely, Kirinyaga County Council is one of the most stable councils in terms of the operations and management.
On the issue of land grabbing or anything of that nature, that becomes a different matter which can be a substantive Question in this House, where there is a dispute over something else. But in terms of stability within Kirinyaga County Council, that has been upheld so far.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, a Mr. Malinda was seconded to Nairobi City Council by the Public Service Commission. Could the Minister confirm if this particular officer has taken office?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is a completely different Question. We are focusing on Kirinyaga County Council. If there is an issue about Nairobi City Council, I would request the hon. Member to bring a substantive Question.
I agree, Mr. Deputy Prime Minister.
Member for Molo!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to ask the Minister whether he can instruct Nakuru Municipal Council to set aside land in Mau Narok Division at a place called Mwisho wa Lami to dump sewage. This is because we do not have any dumping site in that area and many businessmen are dumping all their dirt on the road.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I find myself in the same dilemma and I would really request that hon. Kiuna brings a substantive Question regarding Nakuru.
You have my full agreement.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the past, we have seen corrupt officers being promoted and rewarded when they are not working. Here is a lady officer who has achieved and been commended by the Minister. She has also passed her exams. Why has the Minister not promoted her? Is it because you are discriminating against women?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, hon. Dr. Khalwale knows that I never discriminate against women, and have no intention of doing so. On a broader situation, the scheme of service under the Ministry of Local Government has not been very fair to many staff members in the Ministry in the sense that it has, over the years, led to a situation where officers are neglected and have not been upgraded or monitored in terms of performance, so that they can be promoted appropriately. The Ministry is taking some corrective action. We are in consultation with the Public Service Commission so that these anomalies can be corrected and people who are performers in the local authorities can be given their due respect.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the issue of professional officers being placed on acting capacities in very many local authorities in Kenya is causing a problem. Why is it that lawyers, engineers, planners and valuers in many local authorities are in acting capacities, especially in Kisumu Municipal Council?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in terms of staffing, I would like to repeat that there has been an anomaly in the scheme of service under the Ministry of Local Government. In fact, one of the propositions we are making is to be able to have a Local Government Service Commission which will help us focus on the staff and professionals in the local authorities in our country. It is a big challenge as they say. I have no immediate response but to say that we want to have a long-term answer to this. This is because virtually every local authority has got very qualified professionals who have stagnated in particular positions for a very long time. This is the neglect that I have been talking about within the scheme of service that they have been working under. The only way we believe we can correct it is to have a clear Local Government Service Commission which will be able to focus on local authorities and help such officers.
Last question, Member for Mwea!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, 33 years in the same office and station is too long for somebody to serve and deliver services to the public as required. That should be somebody who is serving personal interests in that office. As I speak, the Minister has given us Kshs78 million to put up a bus park. Initially, the land was two acres. The
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have received a letter from the hon. Member on the issue of this bus park. We are going to send a team from the Ministry to go and verify the issues that he has raised regarding the bus park. On the other hand, I want to say that the lady in question has not been in the same position for 36 years. Initially, she joined as a Revenue Assistant and then was promoted to Accountant III. She has been rising up to the position of Senior Administrative Officer, through the Public Service Commission. Now, she is the Acting County Clerk.
Question by Member for North Imenti!
asked the Minister for Lands:- (a) if he is aware that one Mr. Muchiri, the District Land Adjudication Officer from Meru North District, who was given Kshs500,000 by Tigania East CDF Committee in August 2008, to buy equipment for use in land adjudication in Tigania East Constituency, was later transferred to another district but is yet to account for the funds to the Tigania East CDF Committee; and, (b) what disciplinary action he has taken against the officer and to ensure that the money is returned to Tigania East CDF account.
Minister for Lands! I have intimation that the Minister for Lands had requested that this Question be deferred to Tuesday, next week because he is not yet ready with the answer. But that intimation is not good enough. Ministers must be present in the House to answer Questions or give explanation as to why they are unable to do so, if that applies. So, somebody must hold brief for this Minister and ensure that those sentiments are conveyed to him. Mr. Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government, this behaviour is not acceptable and this House is not prepared to condone it. Could you undertake that you will ensure that your Ministers attend the House and give explanations themselves, because it is their primary duty?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have taken note of your sentiments and will definitely convey this message to my colleagues in the Cabinet. Hon. Orengo will be ready to respond to this Question.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Prime Minister. This House is not prepared to be taken for granted. We will not allow that to happen! This Question is deferred to Tuesday, next week!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to request the Chair to defer this Question to next week, so that I can be provided with a proper answer.
Order! Ask the Question!
asked the Minister for Energy:- (a) whether he could explain the process and criteria used to award the tender for supply of electricity poles in the Rural Electrification Authority; and, (b) whether he could provide a list of the companies that won and were awarded the tender.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The answer that has been provided here---
Order, Mr. Mbugua! You may be having a written answer, but that does not, therefore, assume that the answer that will be given by the Minister is going to be restricted to the written answer which you have. That just gives you primary information. So, you must hear the Minister first before you can complain about the content of the answer!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) The tenders at the Rural Electrification Authority, like any other public sector organization, are awarded in accordance with the Public Procurement and Disposal Act, 2005, and the Public Procurement and Disposal Regulations, 2006. Section 64 of the Public Procurement and Disposal Act, 2005, clearly stipulates that successful tender should be the tender with the lowest technically evaluated price. Tenders for electricity poles fall which the threshold of the international open tenders. These are usually advertised in the newspapers with a wide circulation to ensure a wider reach. The time for preparation for such tenders is set at a minimum of 28 days upon which the tenders are closed. The bids are then evaluated for technical compliance and the price is done by an evaluation committee appointed by the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) after which the evaluation report is then presented to the tender committee for consideration. Mr. Speaker, Sir, on completion of the tender adjudication by the tender committee, the successful bidders are notified of the award while at the same time the unsuccessful ones are notified. (b) In 2008/2009 Financial Year, Rural Electrification Authority floated three tenders for the purchase of electricity poles. The first tender that was advertised around August, 2008, was awarded to the lowest evaluated bidders in accordance with Section 66 of the Act. The other two tenders were procured directly within Section 74 (2) and (3)
Mr. Speaker, Sir, according to the answer that I have been given, Appendices I, II, and III have not been provided. So, I find this particular answer unsatisfactory. There is no answer here!
Mr. Assistant Minister! Order, Mr. Mbugua! You know you must keep some decorum around here. This is not Karioko!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, according to my information, the appendices were attached to the answer submitted to the Clerk of the National Assembly.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, if the appendices were given to the Clerk of the National Assembly, I beg for time to have a look at them and then he can answer the Question comprehensively.
Fair enough. Then you win a deferment on merit to Thursday this week. Mr. Assistant Minister since the hon. Member did not have this information timeously, so he needs time to acquaint himself with the contents. Question No.1 by Private Notice, for the same reasons as were given for Question 392, is deferred to Tuesday, next week.
to ask the Minister of State for Special Programmes:- (a) to state how much relief food has been allocated to Samburu District per month since April 2009 to date and the population targeted and provide the breakdown of food distribution per location during that period; (b) the circumstances under which some locations like Ngare Narok, Ndonyo- Wasin, Uaso West and Engile Central have missed out on relief food for up to four months; (c) how many locations have not received the August 2009 allocation; and (d) could also provide the membership of the District Food Distribution Committee and clarify whether or not it has been operationalized?
Next Order! Any request for Statements? I have no notice of any Statements that have matured for delivery! Next Order!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, continuing from where I left before we went on recess---
Order, Minister! You have 52 minutes to go.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, money laundering and corruption undermines the countryâs business reputation and stands in the way of investment. Money laundering fields organized crimes which in turn fields money laundering. Money laundering similarly undermines the soundness and integrity of countryâs financial system by making it pay towards what is referred to as âhot money.â The economic and political influence of criminal organization can weaken the social fabric of society, collective ethical standards and ultimately, the democratic institutions of the society.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in response to the mounting concerns of money laundering, the G7 Summit in Paris established the Financial Action Task Force (FATF) on money laundering commonly referred as FATF in 1989 to develop a coordinated international response. One of the first tasks was to develop forty recommendations in all and nine special recommendations developed later which set out measures national government should take to implement effectively anti-money laundering programmes.
Order! The hon. Minister will be heard in silence! Proceed, hon. Minister!
Persons who seek to conduct transactions of particular notes to these recommendations is extremely wide, breadth and rich of their application--- (c) Recommendations Nos. 26-34, address institutional and other measures aimed at such issues as domestic, co-operation, the collection, analysis and dissemination of financial intelligence, the adequacy of law enforcement powers and resources; compilation of comprehensive statistics and transparency of legal persons and legal arrangements. (d) Recommendations Nos.35-40 relate to international co-operation including extradition, mutual legal assistance, co-ordination and recognition of foreigners at confiscation actions, sharing the proceeds of confiscated assets and the widest range of international co-operation. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the nine special recommendations relate to measures to combat financing of terrorism. The nine recommendations call upon countries to implement a range of measures aimed at combating terrorism financing as follows: Special recommendation one calls upon states to immediately satisfy and implement the various United Nations (UN) instruments on terrorists financing. Special recommendation two calls upon states to criminalise the financing of terrorism and money laundering associated with it. Special recommendation three calls upon states to adopt and implement measures including legislation to permit the freezing and confiscating of terroristsâ assets. Special recommendation four calls upon states to require
Order, hon. Members! The Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance should be heard in silence! Mr. Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance, proceed!
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Agency shall administer the Criminal Assets Recovery Fund that is also created by the Bill. The Bill obliges reporting institutions to report suspected criminal and money laundering activities to the centre. It also highlights the procedures for recovering and preserving proceeds of crime and money laundering. This is also the section that shall inform Kenyaâs efforts in seeking mutual legal assistance from foreign countries when dealing with the vice. Here below is a summary of the provisions of the various clauses of the Bill. On definitional clauses - Part II Clauses 3-9, those activities that shall constitute money laundering and other related offences are defined in this part. They shall include assisting criminals hide properties acquired unlawfully as well as assisting other benefits from the proceeds of crime. It shall be a crime to acquire or to be in possession of proceeds of crime. Anyone who fails to report any suspicion regarding proceeds of crime will have committed an offence. To knowingly transport, transmit, transfer or receive a monetary instrument with the intention of committing an offence will be illegal. Tipping off those who are likely to be subject to a money laundering investigation, giving false information to officials or bodies regulating the Act shall be an offence. Transmitting more money than prescribed in the Act without reporting and failure to comply with a court order will be an unlawful act. There are penalties for each of these offences. The proposal seeks to overwrite sequence obligation as set out by other laws in Kenya, but those who exercise the duty set out in the Bill in good faith shall be immune from persecution.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, this is a very important Bill and I would have liked to see a full House discuss it. I rise to second this Bill which is very important. It is not the first time that this Bill has been brought before this House. It has been brought before this House before and I know the reasons which have been advanced in the past to oppose it. We are meeting now against a background of a changed international climate in as far as international crimes and money laundering is concerned. Last year, we went through a major international financial crisis. It started almost as a joke and then escalated and eventually caught the whole world. At first when it started, it was confined in the United States of America (USA) starting with the real estate. It then expanded to Europe then to Asia. Some people were predicting that Africa and the rest of Third World would be spared because these economies are not very much tied to the global financial systems. That was then but Africa, like many other parts of the world, was adversely affected by the global meltdown. We suffered in this country when we saw the demand for our major exports slump. We also saw the prices of exports plummet. We also saw the number of tourists coming to our country reduce substantially. We also suffered when we saw that the remittances that come from Kenyans in the Diaspora also reduce substantially. That shows the inter-connectedness of the entire world today. We live in a global world. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, many discussions took place in various parts of the world when the crisis struck. It has now been suggested that it is time to restructure the international financial architecture. It has also been suggested that it is time the Bretton Woods institutions were restructured. Against this background, we are today debating the Proceeds of Crime and Anti-Money Laundering Bill. We must accept that money laundering is a real phenomenon and that it negatively affects economies across the world. There may be temporary gains that are received but eventually the outcome is
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. I am sorry to interrupt the Prime Minister. You will appreciate that we are not quite used to having a Prime Minister contributing on the Floor of the House. But be that as it may, he just told us that he is aware that a particular community is promoting money laundering by coming here with cartons of money and buying property. Could he substantiate?
Dr. Khalwale, you are out of order! That is not what we heard the Prime Minister say. Continue Prime Minister.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, for protecting me. I never and I want to repeat that I could never have meant any particular community. I said that this law is not aimed at any particular community. Kenya has got 43 different communities or tribes. So, I said that this law is the law that will protect all the Kenyan communities. So, I would like to urge the Member of the House to be patriotic enough and shun propaganda. I know there is the Anti-Terrorism Bill which was introduced here and was rejected for some other reasons. Then, it was said this was like introducing Anti- Terrorism Act through the backdoor. When the Anti-Terrorism Bill comes before this House we shall introduce it through the front door and state reasons for wanting to be passed by the House. But this time the Bill before the House is the Proceeds of Crime and Anti Money Laundering Bill which we are seeking approval from this House.
I would like to appeal to the sense of patriotism in Members of this august House, so that this Bill is approved unanimously.
With those few remarks, I beg to second.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I want to thank you for giving me this opportunity to also make a brief contribution to this Bill.
First of all, I want to congratulate the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance for bringing back this Bill which on several ocassions has not been able to pass through this House because of various reasons. I also thank the Prime Minister for very good reasons to support this Bill. I also wish to state that I wholly support this Bill. The Waswahili say: Kutembea
. That is to say that when you travel, you see things that help you to understand where our country is and where we need to be. In a trip as members of the Inter-Parliamentary Union that we had recently, on the sidelines we were discussing the topic of organized crimes. One of the members that engaged me told me: âKenya, what is wrong with you? Why have you not passed the Bill that fights the proceeds of crime?â Previously, we had raised the question of terrorism. We showed concern that the issue of piracy was not being discussed in that forum. We only talk about terrorism and yet piracy affects us on this side of our border with Somalia. One of the hon. Members asked me, âWhat is wrong with you?â I felt embarrassed because I thought that we had passed this Bill. However, upon proper recollection, I realized that the Bill was debated at various stages, but it was never passed.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker for allowing me to support this Bill very emphatically. The reason is that I speak on behalf of the African Parliamentarians Network Against Corruption (APNAC). As we debate this matter, our chairperson is in Doha with another one of our hon. Members. They are representing Kenyan Parliamentarians in the debate on the UN convention against corruption. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, it has been an embarrassment to sit amongst other states and listen to delegates from many countries that have passed these kinds of laws, when Kenya sits back and speaks about commitment to fighting corruption without putting any laws or legal systems in place that would show this commitment. That is why, on behalf of those Parliamentarians who are in Doha right now, speaking on our behalf, and Members of APNAC, I want to say that this is an issue we have been discussing amongst our caucus. We will have a breakfast meeting next Thursday, and we hope that the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance, who we are going to support wholeheartedly on this issue, will give audience to the Members of APNAC to give his input on this very important debate. Unfortunately, the countries that surround Kenya have been in turmoil for a while. We are now speaking about Somalia but most recently, there was Sudan. At one time, it was Uganda. So, Kenya has been receiving a lot of this kind of money. Unfortunately for us, we have become kind of used to having this money floating around our systems. It is going to take some sacrifice amongst the Kenyan business fraternity and our leadership to see to it that we do not encourage this kind of practice because it is benefiting us as Kenyans. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I want to speak again on behalf of Members of the Pan-African Parliament (PAP). During the recently concluded PAP Session, we debated the issue of Somalia and piracy. We will, of course, condemn piracy and its
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I wish to support this Motion with a lot of reservations. The reservations that I have weigh more than the support that I am going to give to this Motion. In the first place, history always guides human beings. The idea of having this kind of legislation was mooted in the western world and imported to Africa, Kenya included. The whole idea of having such an Act then was to target Islam simply because people like Osama Bin Laden and others were suspected of money laundering in order to support the cause they are following and yet over 99 per cent of the Muslims are not in support of what Osama Bin Laden and his group are doing, including whatever is happening in Somalia under Al Shabaab . Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, the fact remains that many Islamic NGOs in this country were disbanded immediately when this kind of Motion was mooted. Up to this time, in Isiolo, there are institutions that were looking after orphans, which have been closed. Go to Garissa and many other places where these NGOs were supporting the communities. They were sent away. Admittedly, maybe, the people these NGOs were employing to come and run them were people of dubious character but the question is: There were very capable Kenyans who could have run those institutions. Why were those people given work permits to come and run those NGOs?
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. A very serious allegation has been made â that there are drug barons in this House of hon. Members. I would want the Minister to substantiate that allegation or withdraw it. Please, give us their names because we want to deal with them.
Mr. Haji, can you substantiate your allegation?
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I will substantiate. You only need to look around and see the best-dressed hon. Member in this House. So, I have substantiated. If you ask me, I will continue to name names. With those remarks, I beg to support.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. This House must be taken seriously. Mr. Mungatana asked for substantiation because of the weighty nature of the problem of drug addiction amongst our youth and the consequences that bedevil our society. This hon. Member is a Minister of Government. Could he substantiate what he is talking about?
Mr. Haji, could you substantiate and name the person who is best-dressed?
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, the only question that one would ask is: Where are the 210 Members of this House?
Mr. Haji, you have not substantiated. If you do not have clear evidence to support your allegation, you should withdraw. If you have evidence, produce it. So, you should either substantiate or tell us when you will bring your evidence for tabling in this House.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, for the meantime, I withdraw. However, I am going to bring a Motion for discussion---
Apologise to the House!
I do apologise.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, thank you for this opportunity to support this very important Bill on control on money laundering activities. By the very name, money laundering, we are basically talking of taking dirty money to the laundry to clean it and pretend it is clean money. That is basically what money laundering is. Hence, the first thing we need to be clear about as a House is that there can never be any dirty money that comes from any good intentions. I believe that even when arguments have been made; that bringing anti-money laundering legislation will affect people of certain faiths, that it will be anti-Muslim, I have been assured by Muslim colleagues that Muslim as a religion, does not condone theft at all or use of dirty money. Hence, cleaning of dirty money should not be seen in the light of any religion. Nobody would be supporting that. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I also want to mention that this Bill is perhaps the most discussed Bill in this House. This is the fourth time it is coming here. I have had the honour and privilege of presenting it twice and taking it all the way to await House Committee stage. Just because of technical hitches, it either lapsed because the House went on recess or some other reason. There has been total agreement on this Bill. Indeed, I would be surprised if this House does not pass it in record time today or very soon hereafter. This House has been very clear, categorical and very vocal on issues of corruption. However, when we now look at the fundamental Bill that would sort out corruption in this country once and for all, I would have expected the House to be full as a signal that this House is clear on fighting corruption. Corruption only thrives if somebody who has taken away money through corrupt means has an avenue for cleaning it and hiding it; then it comes back into the economy as clean money. There is only one way of discouraging people from being corrupt in the first instance by denying them the route to channel the ill gotten wealth, clean it and bring it back to the economy as if it was good money. That is, stopping the laundering of ill gotten wealth. This Bill has been about that. However, it will be good to see how many Members of Parliament would stand up and say: âI want to be counted as having supported efforts to sort out corruptionâ. This can be done by cleaning up the avenues where people who have taken it through corruption and eventually end up making it look as if it was money from clean operations.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, thank you for this chance you have given me to contribute to this Bill.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. It seems that we are in agreement that we pass this Bill. There is no need of repeating ourselves. Would I be in order to call upon the mover of the Motion to reply?
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I want to object because there are so many things---
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I want to appreciate that this is a very good Bill. This Bill is about us as a country stopping this town called Nairobi from becoming a dry cleaning industry for dirty money. You will realize that in the last one year or so, property prices against all expectations are doubling every year. You will even realize that very soon, we will be foreigners in our own land. We are actually almost being chased out of town. I would like us, as a country, to go beyond what shall be written in this Anti-Money Laundering Bill in the sense that we need to address issues like ownership of property. In Kenya, to what extent should we allow foreigners to own property in Kenya?
Thank you very much Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me the opportunity. I want to go on record as having opposed this Bill. It is, probably, not expected of me because I am in the Government, but my conscience tells me otherwise. Hon. Haji indicated clearly the direction we are coming from in terms of implementing laws that we have not even enacted in this House. When the debate was on---
On a point of Order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I do believe that the member is an Assistant Minister in this Government; is he in order to oppose a Government Bill?
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I need your protection. I am debating from my conscience. I represent the same communities that still have the perception that this particular Bill is not in their interest. I have, therefore, to express the wishes of the people
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, there is what we call collective responsibility. This is a Government Motion. We have to pass it as a Government. If he has any contradicting issues, he is allowed to say so, but not as loudly through Parliament as he is doing. He is allowed to speak not through this House, but in his constituency. Would I be in Order to call upon the Mover of the Motion to reply?
Hon. Ojode, I had ruled that you were out of order until we give chance to those who feel like they must contribute while I consult on the issue of his collective responsibility because the Ringera debate brought this to fore and I remember that we allowed Ministers to debate as they wished. This happened only a month ago. I will allow him to contribute while I consult further.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me a chance to contribute to this Bill. I am going to be as brief as possible, just by mentioning a few things.
I would like to say, by way of supporting this Bill that as Kenyans, we have been told that inflation is going up, yet when you go out there, the Kenyan does not have much money. We know that inflation is too much money chasing a few goods. So, how come there is inflation and Kenyans do not have too much money? Where is this too much money coming from if it is not through avenues like proceeds of crime and money laundering?
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I rise to support this Bill. As hon. Kimunya said, this Bill came to this House several times with a lot of suspicion. But I want to say that it is a good homegrown piece of legislation. It is coming at a time when we must be part of the global financial system. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, this Bill comes as a result of something called integration. The process by which criminal money ultimately becomes or is absorbed into the economy is the issue we need to discuss in this Bill. Criminal investigations lead to money laundering. So, how do we address that? Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, this country must have legislation that will come as a result of criminal investigations by security agents, which are likely to be disclosed. There are three ways under this Bill that money laundering can be a reality. The first one is placement; where criminal money gets into any financial system. Billions will go into our banking system and that placement itself is money laundering. Then, there is layering, which is a process of moving money from one institution, area or side of the country or global system to the other. That itself, again, is the process of money laundering. The last one is integration where, again, after the first two systems, the money becomes part of the economy. So, money laundering is real. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I want to say it here very clearly that the Bills we are going to pass in this House are not meant for particular communities, and the law is very clear. We must live as a nation and respect the laws that we create. If every community represented in this House will oppose a law, then where are we heading to? Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, many people, including the Rt. Hon. Prime Minister alluded that there is some money laundering by some particular communities, through other systems and that the property being bought in South C and Eastleigh---
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member did not hear me correctly. I did not and could not have alluded that a certain community is associated with money laundering. I said that this is not against a particular community. I also said that proceeds of money laundering are being used to buy property all over the City, not by a particular community, but by those who are involved in that business.
Thank you, Mr. Prime Minister. I heard you well!
Mr. Prime Minister, I also agree with you. But there is an assumption in this country â out in the media and very remotely in this House â that when a Kikuyu or Somali has US$1 million, it is criminal money and when an Indian or white man comes with Kshs10 million, it is clean money and he is an investor. That must be very clearly defined in this country. We want to agree because the Kenyans who have property in this country and most parts of the City are living within the parameters of the Kenyan law. If there is anybody who feels that there is a certain group in this country which is doing business and making the real market forces go up as a result of money laundering, we want him or her to provide that information to the Central Bank and security agents of this country. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, we have many side effects of money laundering. One of them is that money laundering provides a unique infrastructure, both domestically and internationally, to people who are in organized crime. So, if we abolish that infrastructure that money laundering gives both domestically and internationally, then crime and more so, organized crime will be reduced. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, the other major side effect of money laundering is that it threatens financial stability in the world and more so, in our country. This is because the moment we cannot ascertain where the money is coming from, then we cannot regulate or monitor our financial institutions. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, the other side effect of money laundering is that it gives undue profits and incentives to people when they get money that they have not worked for. We have put in place a Bill, and I want to congratulate the Minister for Finance, but we must look at the following: We must look at compliance evidence. I am not a lawyer but for us to say that, that particular business is as a result of money laundering, compliance evidence must be provided. Also, circumstantial, forensic or any other evidence must be provided. Why are we saying this? We do not want a situation where as a result of business rivalry or political influence, somebody will come and say: âCompany Xâs or individual Yâs money is from money laundering.â Finally, this is for the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance and the Committee. We need to consider the following areas in this Bill at the Third Stage and at implementation. We must consider the cost of implementing the anti-laundering regulations. I want the Minister to borrow the example of the Swedish Government. The Swedish Government has one of the best legislation that is implemented in that part of the world in terms of cost. We must know how much as country are we going to pay for it. We must look at the compliance rate both in our country and in the world. So we borrow experiences. What is our compliance rate? We must get experiences from the world and here, I had looked at the United Kingdom anti-money laundering and asset
Let us have hon. Shakeel to contribute and then I will dispose of the Motion with hon. Ojode.
Thank you very much, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. I stand to strongly support this Bill. The proceeds of crime and money laundering are not different from corruption. It is not that it came after 9/11, although people feel that this money laundering started when the so called war against terrorism started. The money laundering took root at the time of the Goldenberg Scandal when there were tonnes of money coming into the country, much of it was laundered to the extent that the inflation rate in this country was over 75 per cent, yet nothing happened. Now when it came up here, people start targeting communities and start targeting religions. Bad money is bad money and that is the end of it. A bad tree will always give bad fruits. This money laundering is a virus that must be stopped. It is a virus in our financial system. But I think we must go back to see what happened when everything was thrown open. There are some people who are here and who benefited greatly from the Goldenberg scandal. That was money laundering in its own truest form. The main thing was money laundering and we will not go back that way. Madam, Temporary Deputy Speaker, I would like the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance to kindly just hear what I want to say. As I said, when the Foreign Exchange Act was thrown open, nobody worried about where money was coming from; that is when the Goldenberg Scandal started. We need to reinstate a form of foreign exchange control. If there are genuine people who want to invest in this country, they will say that I am bringing you 10 million or 100 million dollars and here it is. This is where it is coming from; please record it because when I want to take it back out of the country, I will not have a problem. The difficult here is because any Tom, Dick and Harry can bring in money and take it out. Madam, Temporary Deputy Speaker, I sometimes receive money through the Money Gram and the Western Union. Because my name is Shakeel Ahmed or Ali, or Mohammed, it is always blocked. My small money that comes in is always blocked. Where? In the United States of America. So, we are wondering that the systems here, as it is happening, are hitting those people who are small and genuine transmitters of money. What is happening is that somebody comes with a billion dollars in here and gets away with it! As much as we thought that our financial foreign exchange control should be done away with, it is very important that it comes in. I want to state one thing and, I want to clearly say that I am a Muslim. I am not very informed or I am not an intellectual in the Muslim laws, but I know one thing, that the very tenets of Islam forbid money
Before I ask hon. Ojode to repeat what I cut him short on, I would like to allow the Chairman of the Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs, in the absence of the Chairman of the Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade, because they worked on this Bill together, to make a statement.
Thank you very much, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, for your indulgence. First of all, I want to thank the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance for the work that has gone into the Bill since we saw it the last time. I want to thank the task force through him for inputting quite a number of suggestions from the Committee in terms of the Bill. I support the Bill this time round.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, it is a major improvement to the Bill than the last time. I will be very brief and I want to indicate that there are a number of issues that are still outstanding which we will take up with the Minister as the Bill comes to Committee Stage. One; the legal profession is a very critical component of the administration of justice in the country. The confidentiality between the lawyer and client is sacrosanct under our justices system. We, therefore, request that the legal profession be removed from reporting institutions because of the importance of the administration of justice and the confidentiality. That has been done in terms of the body but a number of the definitions still have that.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, we already have a criminal justice system in place and this Bill ought to be part of that process. There is no doubt that money laundering is a major crime, but there is nothing special about money laundering in terms of client. Indeed, in terms of the hierarchy of crimes, it is nowhere near the very top. The International Criminal Court deals with the worst crimes in the world like genocide, crimes against humanity and all those kinds of crimes. All those crimes offer or link with the rest of the criminal system very well. For example, all the principles of justice known are anchored in our system and this Bill needs to fit in well with those principles. For example, one must be innocent until proved guilty. There is nothing special about money laundering that requires you to prove that you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, the other one is the whole issue of self- incrimination. We will look at the issue of self-incrimination and see whether you will be forced to incriminate yourself. Then there is the burden of proof. The fact that he who accuses you must proof, if you are accused of laundering money or handling criminal proceeds, whoever is the accuser must be the one to proof. Not for one to say, âYou are the one who is holding this money, therefore, proof that you are not a criminal.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. I request that the Mover be called upon to reply?
You have already contributed. Therefore, you are not the right person to request for the Mover to be called upon to reply!
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. Would I be in order to request that the Mover be called upon to reply?
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I thank my colleagues, the hon. Members, for all the contributions they have made. I would like to very briefly respond to the issues they have raised. First, I assure all hon. Members of this House that this Bill is not targeted at any community, individual or NGO. This is especially those NGOs that have supported our people in different parts of this country. We also know that a lot of money from very genuine sources is brought to our country. This includes Kenyans who live and work in various parts of the world. These Kenyans have supported our economy greatly and the families they left behind. There are genuine investors who have participated in the development of this country. As Mr. Mungatana has said, we also know and understand that a great part of our country still remains unbanked. As a Government, we are making major headways in ensuring that we bring that part of our population into the mainstream banking system through branchless banking and other such reforms that we are undertaking in the banking sector. I would also like to assure the hon. Member that this Bill is not aimed at that segment of our society. This Bill is targeted specifically at those who engage in corruption. This Bill also targeted those who wish to engage in drug dealing, organized crime, bank robberies and kidnappings that we have seen take place in this country. These are the people who should be concerned by this Bill and not genuine businessmen and women and Kenyans. This Bill is targeted at a specific grouping in our society we would like to get rid of. This Bill will not, in any way, as it has often been said, result in a net loss of inflows into our country. However, it will result in a net loss of inflows of illegal and corrupt money. I am confident that this Bill will result in an
Hon. Members, I would like to inform the House that I have received information from the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance that he is not ready to move this Bill. We were informed this morning that he has been kept busy by this House for the last two days.
Let us move on to the next Order!
Is there any hon. Member who would like to contribute to this Motion? If there is no Member willing to contribute to this Motion, I will put the Question. Where is the Mover, who is also the Chairman of that Departmental Committee? He not is present!
Yes, Mr. Mungatana!
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I am a Member of the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security. Sincerely, we did not
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. Is there a quorum in the House?
No, we do not have a quorum. Ring the Division Bell.
Hon. Members, we are unable to raise the requisite quorum. Therefore, the House stands adjourned until tomorrow, 11th November, 2009 at 9.00 a.m.
The House rose at 5.30 p.m.