Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:- THAT, this House adopts Sessional Paper No.3 of 2009 on National Land Policy laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday 18th November, 2009.
to ask the Minister of State for Special Programmes the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Could the Minister state how much relief food has been allocated to Samburu District per month since April 2009 to date and the population targeted, and provide the breakdown of food distribution per location during that period? (b) Under which circumstances have some locations like Ngare Narok, Ndonyo-Wasin, Uaso West and Engilai Central missed out on relief food for up to four months?
Is hon. Letimalo not here?
Next Question by Dr. Khalwale!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Under what circumstances was the contract for printing of new currency notes by M/s De La Rue renewed and/or extended and what other options were explored? (b) Was the current contract materially different from the earlier one, and if so, how? (c) Did the award of the tender occasion any loss of public funds? (d) Was the renewal in conformity with the Public Procurement and Disposal Act and, if so, why has the Minister not ordered an audit of the tender?
Is the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance not here? We will now go to Ordinary Questions. Question No.029 by Mr. Olago!
asked the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security:- (a) whether he could table before the House a complete list of persons injured and/or fatally shot by Police in Kisumu Town during the
riots and the whole duration of post-election violence in 2007/2008; and, (b) what steps he is taking to ensure the victims and/or their families are, as a step towards reconciliation, paid ex-gratia compensations and to settle suits now pending before various courts in Kisumu resulting from the above events.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is absurd to note that the hon. Minister is saying that only three people were fatally injured during the Saba Saba riots. But what was important is the number of people who were fatally hurt in the Saba Saba riots of 2007 in Kisumu. The hon. Minister has referred to Saba Saba riots of 2004 in Nairobi.
There seems to be a misunderstanding on this, in the sense that the Government side assumes that there was only one Saba Saba riots, that is, the one of 2004. The Questioner without specifying also refers to Saba Saba riots. How many instance Saba Saba riots have we had in Kisumu?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I must say that the Question talked of the number of people who were killed during the Saba Saba riots. This Saba Saba riots that took place on 7th July, 2004, is the one that I believe the hon. Member has sought. But in the event that he wanted to ask about several Saba Saba riots, we would be quite happy about it. But it is very clear that the hon. Member has not been that specific.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The hon. Minister cannot say that I have not been specific. Last week, this Question came up and I specifically said that I was referring to the Saba Saba riots of 2007 in Kisumu. Many hon. Members may not know, but there were riots in 2007.
Order! Hon. Olago, the Question does not specify which
riots! So, to the best of the recollection of the Chair, Saba Saba started in the 1990s and not even in the 2000s. So, when you say Saba Saba without being specific---
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Question says: â2007/2008.â I have made no reference at all to 2004.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I am just seeking guidance from the Chair because I heard you ask the Minister clearly, and that is a direction from the Chair; to explain how many Saba Saba riots we have had. To the best of my knowledge, we have had Saba Saba riots since November, 1991 and the Minister should not escape answering your own direction on the issue of what is his understanding of the Saba Saba riots.
Hon. Minister, this is a very crucial question, please answer it.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have got no reason whatsoever to withhold any information. But the manner in which it is explained, it must cover the entire duration. I am quite happy, to come and lay the entire documents on the Table for all the Saba Saba days that we have had.
Fair enough! I think under the circumstances--- Yes, what is your point of order?
On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Under the circumstance, could the Question be deffered to next week?
The Question is deferred to next week, hon. Minister, in which case, you are going to furnish us with all the details regarding all the Saba Saba riots.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I oblige to do exactly that.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Hon. Kiunjuri, the matter has been put to rest, unless it is a very pressing point of order. What is your point of order?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was just wondering why the Chair is not guiding the hon. Minister when Mr. Deputy Speaker is fully aware of the Saba Saba which he was involved in!
The Mombasa bonding retreat did not work!
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
What is your point order, hon. Imanyara?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, is it in order for a Minister to say that he is being put in an awkward situation by a Member of this House asking for clarification on S aba Saba, which the Minister knows very well is what brought the changes that he is enjoying today as a Minister?
I think we should put this matter to rest as much as possible. Next Question, hon. Shakila Abdalla!
Hon. Shakila Abdalla is not in? Next Question by hon.Yusuf Chanzu!
asked the Minister for Water and Irrigation what plans the Ministry has to improve the water supply and reticulation in Kisumu City.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. My Ministry, through the Lake Victoria South Water Services Board, is implementing the short-term action plan for rehabilitation of the water facilities in Kisumu City. The works being undertaken include construction of a new treatment plant of 24,000 cubic meter a day capacity and rehabilitation of 17 kilometres distribution network at a total cost of Ksh175 million. The short-term measure will be completed by December, 2009, and hence ease the water problems in Kisumu City. Plans are at advanced stage by my Ministry to implement the long-term action plan; which include construction of intake works at âKajujuâ River. Forty eight thousand cubic meters a day capacity treatment plants, storage and distribution network and capacity building of staff for Kisumu City Water and Sewerage Company.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank the Assistant Minister, but Kisumu City is going to be a major regional centre and the city is on the Lake. I do not know why the Government has not considered doing a major programme using the lake water rather than talking about short-term measures since 1963. Could the Assistant Minister tell us what major plans they have in place to improve the water situation and reticulation in Kisumu City?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have talked about the short-term measures. But for the long-term measures, we have a project of Kshs3.3 billion which is meant to augment and expand the existing water sewerage systems to meet the demand for such services for Kisumu City; that is, by 2031. This will include not only the flow of water, for which we are laying pipes of about 40,100 metres, but it will also be able to take care of the sewerage system for the whole of Kisumu City. The project of Kshs3.3 billion is underway and it will be implemented in phases. Up to now, we have spent Kshs430 million on short-term measures. On the issue of whether we should be able to draw water from Lake Victoria and pump back the water, it will be very costly. I agree with the hon. Member that the first treatment works were done in 1956, 1963 and then 1984. This is the first time we are taking seriously the issues of Kisumu City. After the intake at âKajuju Riverâ, we shall be able to pump in the 48,000 cubic litres that would rest the case. In addition, over the 600,000 people living in Kisumu City will be provided with water.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for the sake of the record, the river that the hon. Assistant Minister has referred to is not âKajujuâ. It is âKajuluâ. Kisumu City is a transit city for west Kenya and some parts of the southern rift. So a lot of people travel through Kisumu and that is how hon. Chanzu witnessed one night; I think when we did not have water in the hotel where he was staying. But I agree that, indeed, Kisumu Water and Sewerage Company (KIWASCO) and the Lake Victoria South Water Board are doing a good job and what they are doing in the short-term is going now and which is good enough. But the important question is; why does the Ministry act only when there is a crisis? Why do they not plan ahead?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have said that since 1984 nothing had been done for Kisumu City. The hon. Member who is a resident of the city agrees with
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Pumping water involves use of a lot of energy. I would have thought that the best way to supply water to Kisumu City is by gravity means. Are there plans to convert supply of water through gravity system in Kisumu City?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the question hon. Chanzu asked is whether we can use the water from Lake Victoria, and I said it is very uneconomical. That is why we are now tapping water from River Kajulu, as corrected by Mr. Olago.
Fair enough. Let us have the last question from hon. Yusuf Chanzu.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to thank again my friend and the substantive Minister. I think they are doing good work, but I would like the Assistant Minister to make sure that what he is assuring this House is going to be implemented. Looking at what we have gone through, we are trying to come up with a Constitution which is going to divide this country into regions and Kisumu City is going to be a major centre. It is even catering, not only for Kenya but for East Africa and we want the image of this country to be at the top. Could the Assistant Minister assure this House that what he has told us is going to be effected? We do not want to be told that this will be achieved by 2030. There was a Minister who used to say that we are going to have water in the whole of this country by the year 2000. So, let us not base it on that. Let us just concentrate on what we can be able to do now.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this Assistant Minister is very serious. Bearing in mind that Kisumu City is the city where the Prime Minister of this country comes from, I will be risking my job it I try to give information that cannot be fulfilled. We are going to undertake the project at the cost of Kshs3.3 billion and we will do whatever we can.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
What is your point of order, hon. Imanyara?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Prime Minister of this country is the MP for Langata. Is the Assistant Minister in order to say that the Prime Minister comes from the City of Kisumu?
Mr. Assistant Minister, the Prime Minister of this country has a constituency called Langata and not Kisumu or anywhere else near Nyanza Province!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was just tracing his roots, but I withdraw.
asked the Minister for Forestry and Wildlife:-
(a) what measures he is taking to ensure that areas around the Aberdares and Mount Kenya, which have continually been deforested, are
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) In our effort to ensure that the Aberdares and Mount Kenya Water Towers are conserved and the degraded areas within the forests preserved and rehabilitated, my Ministry, in collaboration with the Local Communities, Development Partners and other stakeholders have been actively undertaking tree planting and other conservation activities geared towards restoration of the water catchment areas.
(b) My Ministry, through the Kenya Forests Service, has been engaging the youth in afforestation programmes both in Kieni East and Kieni West Districts in Government and donor-funded programmes. In this endeavor, the Ministry, through the Kazi KwaVijana Programme Phase 1, engaged 342 youths in afforestation programmes in the two districts. However, the tree planting programme was hampered by lack of sufficient rains and will resume as soon as the situation improves.
During the Phase II of the Kazi Kwa Vijana Programme, the Ministry intends to plant trees in public degraded lands, institutions and water catchment areas. These activities will be accomplished through engagement of youths in the two districts.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. While I appreciate the answer given by the Minister, I think he should give us more information, because we are not aware of the 342 youths who were employed to do the tree planting work. We all know how we have destroyed our forests. We all know that we need to plant trees all over the country, not only in Kieni East or Kieni West Districts. The Assistant Minister should tell us in which area the youths planted the trees during the first round.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I can confirm to the hon. Member for Kieni that, indeed, the 342 youths were engaged in the area to plant trees measuring a total of 119 hectares during the Phase I of the Kazi Kwa Vijana Programme. During the last financial year, we produced 17,490,000 seedlings that were raised and planted in farm lands all over the country.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. It is true that disafforestation has caused a disaster in this area, particularly downstream in some of the constituencies like mine. Part of the problem is caused by commercial farmers and others who tap water from the streams in this area without authority. What has the Ministry done to ensure that the use of water is regulated in this area?
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. If I understood the question very well, it was about regulating the use of water, which is basically under the Ministry of Water and Irrigation. However, I guess we will work closely with the sister Ministries to ensure that they effectively do their job. In terms of the areas that have been deforested, I think the Ministry wants to implement the Forests Act, so that all the deforested areas, the ones that we know--- I also urge hon. Members to bring to our attention other areas which we may not know about so that we can take action.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I am happy that the Government is doing something about the Aberdares and the Mount Kenya areas because
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not have those details but I can avail them to the hon. Member once I get back to the office.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The question was very specific. Apart from the Aberdares, it also refers to Mount Kenya. We know that Mount Kenya region is larger than Kieni where he gave 342 jobs. Could he give a breakdown of the entire region, giving the number of jobs that were given to youths, the money spent and the criteria used in selecting them? He should also confirm that, in fact, these youths have been paid. Youths from Central Imenti, which is part of Mount Kenya area, are yet to be paid for the Kazi Kwa Vijana Programme.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. As I said, the information I had was very relevant to this Question. Regarding the information asked for, I can provide it later because I do not have all the details.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Would I be in order to request that this Question be deferred, so that the Assistant Minister can avail the information since it is very important? Youths, including those in my constituency, in Machewa, who have been engaged in the Kazi Kwa Vijana Programme have not been paid to date. It is very important that the Assistant Minister supplies these particulars.
Hon. Assistant Minister, the Chair has taken note of the fact that the Question talks about Mount Kenya area. The position is that Mount Kenya area is Mount Kenya area, and it is a large area. I think it would be fair that we defer this Question until such a time when you can provide all the information that you have promised.
The Question is deferred to Thursday next week.
asked the Minister for Information and Communications:-
(a) the total cost of the recently launched East African Marine Systems (TEAMS) project:
(b) when the project will start actual operations; (c) what security measures are in place to ensure safety of the fiber optic cables; and,
(d) what steps he is taking to ensure optimum use of the facility, considering that very few Kenyans own computers?
Where is the Minister for Information and Communications? Let us move on to the next Question!
You cannot ask your Question from the Dispatch Box!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have not been furnished with the answer, and that is why I was consulting with the Minister!
Would you like to still proceed and ask the Question?
Yes, due to the urgency, I would like to proceed.
asked the Minister for Education:-
(a) to confirm that primary schools in Suba West and Suba East Divisions of Migori Constituency suffer serious understaffing due to hardship in the area;
(b) to table a staffing list per school in Suba West and Suba East Divisions in Migori District; and,
(c) when he will, in conjunction with the Minister of State for Public Service, declare Suba West a hardship area, so that teachers and other civil servants can be paid hardship allowance and be retained in the region.
(Mr. Mwatela); Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I kindly request the House to give me a little more time so as to give a more comprehensive answer. I am not satisfied with the answer I have here.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister tell us why he is not satisfied before you can exercise discretion to allow him more time?
If he says why he is not satisfied that will be the same as giving the details as if the Question has been asked. I think it is not fair for him to say why he is not satisfied when he is not satisfied. Hon. Assistant Minister, how much time do you want?
Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will give a proper answer on Tuesday next week.
The Question is deferred to Tuesday next week.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I reluctantly oblige.
Next Question by Mr. K. Kilonzo!.
asked the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs:- a) whether he could state the number of cases in which the High Court of Kenya has given pecuniary awards to the litigants in the last 10 years; (b) whether he could indicate how many of these awards were against (i) the Government, (ii) state corporations, (iii) private companies and (iv) individuals, stating the total amount involved for each category; and, (c) how many of the cases, especially against the Government, have since been settled.
The Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs! Is the Minister not here?
Next Question, Mr. Kiilu!
asked the Minister for Energy:- (a) to inform the House when the Kwasomba (Emali/Masumba and Matiliku/Kilili Rural electrification projects, which were constructed in 2007, will be commissioned; (b) what the cost of each project is; and, (c) why Spring Hill Youth Polytechnic, Kwakivoko Market, Tutini Borehole and Kalima Market, which are situated along Kwasomba- Masumba power line, were not connected during the construction of the power line.
Is the Minister for Energy not here?
Next Question by Mr. Ochieng!
on behalf of
asked the Minister for Roads:-
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Mr. Bett, the Minister for Roads and the two Assistant Ministers in the Ministry are also out of the country on official business. Therefore the Minister requested me to stand in for him. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with your permission, I beg to reply.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is one Road Inspector in Nyando District. The Ministry of Roads is not in a position to post technical officers to any district since the responsibility for development and maintenance of roads has now been transferred to the new Roads Authorities in line with the ongoing reforms in the road sector. In this connection, the Ministry of Roads has already deployed all technical staff that were previously attached to the roads department to these new authorities. The authorities are in the process of setting up their structures and operations in various regions. Therefore, I would request the hon. Member for Nyakach to be patient as the authorities, and in this case the Kenya Rural Roads Authority, finalize modalities for operationalizing their activities.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have instructions from the hon. Member to thank the Minister for that comprehensive answer and he instructed me to accept the answer because; he is satisfied with the Ministryâs response.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, could the Minister tell the House the role of the roads inspectors, given the state of our roads?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the roads inspectors and other technical staff in the Ministry will actually work with the local residents to examine the state of roads, report on the condition of the roads to the appropriate authorities, so that maintenance can then be undertaken.
Next Question, Mr. Cheruiyot!
asked the Minister for Roads what plans the Ministry has for rehabilitation of Muchorwe-Kamwaura-Sitoito-Kamore Road (E261) and the road from County Council to Chepsir (D315).
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
The Ministry of Roads has no immediate plans to rehabilitate Muchorowe- Kamwaura-Sitoito-Kamore Road. Nevertheless, this road is classified as class E. The District Roads Committee or the envisaged Constituency Roads Committee should use the available funding under the Roads Maintenance Levy Fund to give the necessary priority for roads maintenance. The road from county council at Molo to Chepsir is also under the jurisdiction of the DRC; therefore, it should include it in its plans for rehabilitation.
Are you satisfied Mr. Cheruiyot?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the answer given by the Minister, to say the list, is far from satisfactory. These are roads which are over 60 kilometres. They are the main arterial roads within the constituency, and they serve a high production area in terms of food and security. The answer given is really not satisfactory.
What is your supplementary question therefore?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, is the M minister going to provide funds rather than advice?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, by virtue of the classification of the roads, they actually fall under the DRC, which will now be converted into the CRC where the Member of Parliament will play a key role. We recommend that the hon. Member places these particular roads on a priority for maintenance.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, considering what the hon. Member has told the Minister about the importance of the roads and the fact that it is class E, could he tell the House whether he is going to re-classify the roads so that they can take care of what the hon. Member has said?
That is a request which will certainly be considered. I will convey the sentiments of the hon. Member to the Minister for Roads for consideration.
Mr. Cheruiyot, the last question on this!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, these roads have not been done for the last 20 years. They used to be maintained by the Ministry. Could the Minister give a firm commitment that funds will be allocated to these particular roads because the Roads Maintenance Levy Funds are not sufficient at all? We require about Kshs60 million for these roads.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am aware that funds have been allocated to Mr. Cheruiyotâs constituency for this purpose. However, if he feels that the funds will not be adequate to complete the maintenance to the level required, he should be at liberty to raise that with the Ministry of Roads for consideration for additional funding.
Fair enough! Let us go back to Question No.1 by Private Notice. I understand that this Question was answered yesterday. I think there was a mistake. If so, let us move to Question No.2 by Dr. Khalwale.
to ask the Minister of State for Special Programme:- (a) to state how much relief food has been allocated to Samburu District per month since April, 2009 to date and the population targeted, and provide the breakdown of food distribution per location during that period;, (b) to explain the circumstances under which some locations like Ngare Narok, Ndonyo-Wasin, Uaso West Engile Central have missed out on relief food up for four months; (c) to state how many locations have not received the August, 2009 allocation; and,
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance the following Question by Private Notice.
(a) Under what circumstances was the contract for printing of new currency notes by Messrs De La Rue renewed and/or extended and what other options were explored?
(b) Was the current contract materially different from the earlier one, and if so, how?
(c) Did the award of the tender occasion any loss of public funds?
(d) Was the renewal in conformity with the Public Procurement and Disposal Act and if so, why has the Minister not ordered an audit of the tender?
Is the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance not here? Under the circumstances, as the Standing Orders dictate, the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance will not transact any business in this House unless he is able to give a satisfactory explanation as to why he is not able to answer this Question. This is in line with the new Standing Orders.
asked the Minister for Environment and Mineral Resources:-
(a) whether he could confirm the existence of a reputable international body, Extractive Industry Transparency Initiative (EITI), that encourages governments to disclose revenues received from mineral exploration; and,
(b) what steps he has taken to ensure Kenya joins the body and to domesticate the instruments governing its operations.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
I wish to confirm the existence of an international body known as Extractive Industry Transparency Initiative (EITI) that encourages governments to disclose revenues received from mineral exploration. The body aims at enhancing transparency over payments by extractive companies to governments and government linked entities as well as transparency over revenues by the host governments.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, while I appreciate the initiative by the Ministry, could the Assistant Minister tell us when the Government will fully commit the implementation of EITI?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have said that there is an interministerial committee which is consulting. On the basis of the report from the task force, I believe we shall have a way forward.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister says that this process was started in 2006. Between 2006 and now, is nearly three years. How long does he require to process this, so that Kenya can be part of this important organ? What kind of consultation can take three years for the Ministry to complete? What kind of stakeholders are the Ministry getting involved for three years?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to inform this House that there was parliamentarians breakfast meeting which was followed by a workshop in 2006 and 2007. There was also another workshop in Mombasa. We are consulting.
I am informed that the interministerial committee is said to have met in 2007 and agreed that the National Oil Corporation of Kenya prepare a Cabinet Memo on the implementation of EITI. So, it has not taken three years. I can say that we are ongoing.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as you are aware, countries with rich natural resources always have conflict problems. The implementation of the EITI is a very bold move to avoid such conflict in the future in terms of resources. Could the Assistant Minister tell us if they have a fully costed work plans which have been published and widely available; containing measures, targets and time table of implementation and the assessment of capacity constraints?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have said that we are consulting, but we are yet, to have the work plan. As the hon. Member said, the EITI it is very important. It might be important for us to understand that from the time it was started in 2002, the countries who have qualified to be members of the EITI in the whole world are less than five countries. We have quite a number of---
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. There are 30 countries already Tanzania being one of them, which is on the validation process.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I agree Tanzania is on validation process. It is yet to become a member. I am saying that those who have qualified as per
How soon is âvery soonâ?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the soonest possible.
Which is? You owe the House definitive answers so that the Members are not left in abeyance. You had this for three years and then you say very soon.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I promise that by next year, we should be able to be members of the EITI.
asked the Minister for Information and Communications:- (a) what the total cost of the recently launched East African Marine Systems (Teams) project is;
(b) when the project will start actual operations;
(c) what security measures are in place to ensure safety of the Fibre Optic Cables; and,
(d) what steps he is taking to ensure optimum use of the facility, considering that very few Kenyans own computers.
Minister for Information and Communications! Under the circumstances, the Minister for Information and Communications will not transact any business in the House until such a time he is able to give a satisfactory answer.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The same Question was on the Order Paper last week and you gave the same order. Today, the Minister has not turned up again. I do not know whether another Minister can undertake because what we want is an answer.
Tell the Assistant Minister!
Fair enough! We are issuing the same ruling that we made last time. Essentially, I think that is when the Minister will have quite a lot of explanations to do.
Next Question, Mr. K. Kilonzo. Is hon. K. Kilonzo by any chance out of the country on an important Parliamentary business? In the event that he is out on a Parliamentary business, the Question will be rescheduled. But in the event that he is not, the Question is dropped. Under the circumstances the Question is dropped until we have information that can lead us to a ruling other than that.
asked the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs:- (a) if he could state the number of cases in which the High Court of Kenya has given pecuniary awards to the litigants in the last 10 years; (b) if he could indicate how many of these awards were against the Government, State Corporations, private companies and individuals, stating the total amount involved for each category; and, (c) how many of the cases, especially against the Government, have since been settled?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, before I answer the Question, I would like to seek the indulgence of the Chair. Last week, on Wednesday, I was to answer this Question, but I was together with my Minister engaged in Mombasa on official matters. That is why I was unable to answer this Question.
Hon. Assistant Minister, you will make your explanation why you were not able to answer it for the benefit of the House. You have already approached the Chair on that but you came late for answering this Question again. So, you must apologize to the House before you continue.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I apologize. I had just gone to the library and that was when you called the Question.
However, I beg to reply. (a) The Judiciary in its pursuit to ensure justice for all determined and granted litigants pecuniary awards on a number of cases in the last ten years. The number of cases in which the High Court of Kenya has given litigants awards in the last ten years is 4,817. (b) The pecuniary awards against institutions are as follows: The Government, 87 awards, amount awarded, Kshs5,214,902,681; against State Corporations, 121 awards, awarded amount, Kshs1,774,342,836; private Companies, 995, amount awarded, Kshs18,878,263,973; individuals, 894 awards, amount awarded is Kshs6,394,304.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, much as I like the answer given by the Assistant Minister, I am totally disappointed that the most important part of the Question which is the settlement of the pecuniary awards has not been answered. As you can see, the amount of money involved is a lot. The total is roughly Kshs25 billion and in terms of business, this is very serious. I would like to know whether this money has been settled or not. I assume that it has not been settled. In which case, could the Assistant Minister, in view of the fact that these awards are large and affect business in the country, put a limit on the time given in their settlement? In other words, is he willing to bring up a law to limit the time so that the awards are actually paid within a certain time?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the payment of awards, as it is stipulated in our laws today, do not have a specific timeframe within which they should be settled. In any event, it is really the business of those parties that have been awarded those amounts to pursue settlement with the Government. I agree with the fact that these are huge amounts. In fact, in ten years, we will be talking of Kshs5.2 billion, which translates to about Kshs500 million in a year. So, it is substantial. However, the issue is not really the amount; the issue is whether those awards are properly settled. I think that is not the question before us today. So, as it is today, we do not have a specific timeframe within which awards should be made. They should just be pursued by the litigants who have proved their claims against the Government.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not want to give an undertaking as to whether I can bring a law because at the end of the day, it is the litigants to pursue the Government, the state corporations or private companies, to receive their claims.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Assistant Minister is not really addressing the matter. Both the Government and the citizens are equal in law. Could he tell the House when and after how long each judgment payment will be made? Secondly, could he admit that these cases come up because of the inefficiency and corruption in Government affairs?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in my answer to part âcâ of the Question, I said that we referred this matter to the Attorney-General because he is the custodian of those awards. So, I cannot really give a timeframe within which the Attorney-General will settle these awards or if at all he has already settled them. I cannot answer that. I think the Attorney-General should be the right person to be able to address this House and give an appropriate and accurate answer. I have a duty to this House to state what I know is right and true so that I do not mislead it.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as to whether these awards are arrived at because of inefficiency, I cannot confirm that because every case should be assessed on its own merit. So, again, who is supposed to do that? It is the Attorney-General because he is the
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is common knowledge that the Attorney-General is only the advocate for the Government and indeed, any payments that he makes, he does so after receiving them from the relevant ministries. Is the Assistant Minister in order to tell us that it is only the Attorney-General who can give us these facts when we know that the Attorney-General makes payments after receiving the same from the relevant ministries? For example, if an award is made against the Ministry of Agriculture or any ministry, whichever Ministry that is concerned, will send the cheque to the Attorney-General who in turn will make the disbursement. Therefore, it is within the knowledge of the Assistant Minister if they have all this information that totals over Kshs5 billion, to tell us when these instructions were sent to the Attorney-General for disbursement of the claims and if he has in fact effected those payments. It cannot be true that the Attorney-General is the one who makes payments because he acts as the advocate for the various Government departments.
Hon. Assistant Minister, your Ministry is in charge of administration of justice. It falls under your mandate!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to agree with my learned senior that it is the various Ministries that avail the settlement cheques but centrally, it is the Attorney-Generalâs Chambers which at the end of the day, will be able to confirm all these. It is still possible to get from the Ministries the kind of awards they have made but centrally, it is the Attorney-General who is doing that. So, it is a question of how do we get the information. I have said that it is the Attorney-General who can give us very quick information within a very short time because he has all the information. Getting it from the various Ministries can still be done but I am saying it is the Attorney-General who has the entire picture of the various settlements to various Ministries.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, time has come for the hon. Assistant Minister to take the bull by the horns. He knows as well as we all do that the stumbling block once judgment has been given by the courts against the Attorney-General and the Government is the Civil Procedure Rules which provide that no warrant of attachment can be issued against the Government. It was supposed to protect the Government but now the Ministries are using this and abusing these powers of law. So, to this extent, therefore, could the Assistant Minister inform the House when his Ministry will take steps to advise the Rules Committee of the High Court to change these rules so that they are not abused by the Ministries?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to agree with my colleague that the laws of this land should serve Kenyans and we have a duty as a Ministry first and foremost and as Members of this House to come forward and rectify them. I am happy that he has made a very good proposal that it is high time we also looked at the law where perhaps, we think it protects the Government much more than the Kenyan people. So, it is a good proposal and we can consider that. I would also want to request my colleague here that he can also lead in making those proposals.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. A lot of people have committed suicide and lost their lives as a result of not being paid by the Government. A lot of people have lost their companies as a result of settlements which have been decided by courts and they have not been paid. This is a very important Question. So, I request that we reroute this Question to the relevant Ministry or to the Attorney-General so that it can be looked into by this House.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is a very good proposal. It actually agrees with part âcâ of my answer. So, it is unfortunate that people have died as a result of non-payment by the Government. We will pray for them. But I think it is important that the Attorney-General, as I have said, addresses those issues, especially part âcâ of the Question.
Hon. Alfred Sambu, you are the Questioner in this case. Are you of the opinion that this Question should be sent to the right Ministry or deferred?
Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Since the Assistant Minister is unable to answer part âcâ, which is a very important part of the Question as you can see from the general interest of the Members of Parliament; could I ask that you defer this Question until he gives us a proper answer for part âcâ also?
Order, hon. Silas Muriuki! I thought you stood on a point of order.
Mr. Assistant Minister, your Ministry is in charge of justice, and justice essentially presupposes that justice to Kenyans too, including settlement of their own claims. Under the circumstances, since you have the collective responsibility in the Government and you have written to the Attorney-Generalâs Chambers asking them to furnish you with the information that you need to be able to adequately answer part âcâ, the Chair directs that this Question appears on the Order Paper on Thursday next week. Are you okay? Is that ample time for you to be able to come up with a comprehensive and complete answer?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not have a problem with that because as long as we have information from the Attorney-Generalâs Chambers, I will be prepared to answer the Question. May be, you could give us the other week so that we deal with him and---
The week after next week?
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Then you will have to have the answer in full. You cannot come back here again and say that you are not having this information!
No, I think we will have all the information.
You work for the same Government in the same Executive and I think you have a collective responsibility.
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. It is in order for the other week.
This Question is deferred to the week after next week on Wednesday morning!
asked the Minister for Energy:- (a) when the Kwasomba (Emali)/Masumba and Matiliku/Kilili Rural electricity projects, which were constructed in 2007, will be commissioned; (b) what the cost of each project was; and, (c) why Spring Hill Youth Polytechnic, Kwakivoko Market, Tutini Borehole and Kalima Market which are situated along Kwasomba- Masumba power line were not connected during the construction of the power line.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, first of all, I apologize for coming late. It was unavoidable.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) These projects are complete save for the installation of a transformer. We are expecting transformers within this month. The projects, hopefully, will, therefore, be commissioned in December, 2009. (b) The costs for each project were as follows: Masumba/Emali, Kshs20.6 million and Matiliku/Kilili, Kshs7.5 million (c) As for the Spring Hill Youth Polytechnic, this polytechnic was constructed well after the project was completed and is not, therefore, connected. For the Kwakivoko Market, this is a very small market and hence the estimated costs were not included in the projects. For the Tutini Borehole, the borehole is not along the Masumba Power line and, therefore, was not part of the coverage. It is located 1.3 kilometers off the power line. As for the Kalima Market project, I am informed that this market does not exist on the ground along the Masumba power line. What exists is the Kalima Primary School. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the area Member of Parliament has, so far, also not submitted a request to the Ministry for electrification of the above projects. Once he does so and subject to funds being available, this project shall be considered for funding. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Assistant Minister for giving a fairly satisfactory answer. As I do so, I want to thank the Assistant Minister for accepting that these projects were completed some two years ago and that what they have been waiting for are transformers. They were expecting the transformers in November, 2009. Now we are in the middle of November. Can the Assistant Minister assure this House that the transformers are now available in the country and that he is going to install them so that the people who are supposed to be served by this line are connected to power by Christmas; December 2009, as a gift?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I appreciate the sentiments of the hon. Member. I said in my answer that we expect to commission the projects by December, 2009, and we will endeavor to make sure that happens. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Do you have the last question on this, hon. Kiilu, or are you satisfied?
I am satisfied, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a Ministerial Statement from the Minister of State for Immigration and Registration of Persons on the circumstances why the Ministry has suspended the issuance of national identity cards in North Eastern Province which, as you know, the acquisition of a national identity card is a basic constitutional right. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like the Minister to inform the House on the number of youths affected in this particular exercise and the period for which they were affected, particularly the youths who just completed their national examinations and who wanted to register in order to participate in the referendum and also to participate as voters. As you know, the Interim Independent Electoral Commission (IIEC) will commence the registration of voters very soon. Therefore, the circumstance is such that a very large population of Kenyans in that part of the country will not have access to this registration exercise. I seek this Statement from the Minister very, very urgently.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I undertake to inform the Minister of State for Immigration and Registration of Persons. I have realized that I am also an interested party in this matter. So, I will ensure that I inform the Minister so that---
When can we have the Ministerial Statement?
By Tuesday next week latest, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Clearly, this is a matter that is so serious; Tuesday next week is a week â you are denying these Kenyans another week of lack of registration. We need this Ministerial Statement this afternoon or latest tomorrow, if possible, because it is the question of getting the Minister to come and explain to the country why this decision has been taken. It cannot wait until Tuesday next week.
I agree, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I will contact the Ministry, so that we can issue the Statement by today afternoon.
Tomorrow I will be away; I think most of the people will be away for a conference.
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Okay that is fair enough. It is so ordered.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Bill by our colleague, hon. Gitobu Imanyara. There have been a lot of misconceptions and misgivings about this Bill. It is very unfortunate that we sit here as a House, professing to care about Kenyans. We speak about the plight of the Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs) and how to deal with impunity and yet when it comes to putting money where our mouths are, we do not see same commitment from this House. I am, therefore, urging my colleagues to look seriously at the issue of portraying our country as a failed State.
Just a month ago, Members of Parliament were all over the country speaking about how important it is for us to set up a special tribunal; that is, our own mechanism to deal with the issues of post-election violence. Today, the same issue is on the Floor of the House, but we do not see the same support. For how long are we going to push issues for the sake of political expediency and not for the sake of the people of this country?
The first time we debated this issue, I supported, with reasons, the proposal that we set up a special tribunal. It is the same reasons I want to expound on today. During the post-election violence, women were grossly affected. Many women were sexually violated; some of them contracted HIV/AIDS and others even got pregnant. There is a report that was compiled by women organizations under International Federation of Women Lawyers (FIDA) and CREW. The report shows clearly the injustices that women suffered during that time. The question we have asked many times is: If we do not set up our own mechanisms to deal with this issue, how will these women ever get justice?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank you for giving me an opportunity to speak on this very important Bill. Before doing so, may I spend some time to thank hon. Gitobu Imanyara because he has put in a lot of work to make sure that this Bill appears before this House in its present form. Hon. Imanyara is, indeed, a very good brain - I have no doubt about that. He has a great track record in this country. He is a wonderful and successful lawyer. In fact, he is a seasoned journalist and a tested reformist. Hon. Imanyara was actually the Secretary- General of Ford Kenya and, indeed, is one of the heroes of the second liberation. He is actually one of the few survivors of the infamous Nyayo torture chambers. How ideal that it is him who has penned this particular Bill. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, having said this, I would like to acknowledge that this is, indeed, a very remarkable week. Kenyans will remember that it was only yesterday when we launched the Harmonised Draft Constitution. Since not all of us could speak yesterday, allow me to join all those Kenyans who happily, witnessed that occasion; and make a small correction: That somebody, deliberately, forgot to mention the great history that was contributed in this process, by Messrs. James Orengo, Martin Shikuku, and the late Masinde Muliro, when they went to Kamukunji grounds on a pick-up vehicle. We must not also forget the person who drove that pick-up vehicle. Those were, indeed, the symbols of change that brought about multiparty democracy in this country. We could make this week not only unique but also the finest week of the year if we resolve the issue of the post-election violence once and for all. It is true that when we are in this House, we are able to think on our feet and come up with very good ideas but it is also important for us to remember that we are exercising the representative role of Members of Parliament. If that is the case, what are Kenyans saying about our handling of the post-election violence?
Thank you very much, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this very important Bill. When the Government brought a similar Bill to this House a few months ago, I voted against it. However, today I stand to support this one. Over the last few months, I have reflected very deeply on matters that are current in the country. I have not changed because this Bill will see the light of the day. I have changed because of the spirit in the Bill itself, not necessarily the text, wording or its application in the country. I thank Mr. Imanyara for bringing this Bill before the House. The spirit resonates with the majority of Kenyans. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the reason for this is simple: Yesterday, we were given an opportunity by the Committee of Experts (CoE) to see a clip, reminding us of a very serious issue in the history of this country. I agree with Dr. Khalwale, that the Government has sufficient laws under the current Constitution to try Kenyans who participated in the killings of innocent people. These are the people who did what we saw on our television screens. The Government has sufficient mechanism even to try them today. However, because in this country the Government has refused to implement the law, we have invited foreigners to take over leadership of this country. It is foreigners who are driving the reform agenda and trials. I want to disagree with Dr. Khalwale that this Bill, as designed by Mr. Imanyara, does not preclude the fact that those who were responsible for crimes against humanity can still end up at the Hague. The Bill was carefully crafted. The worry we had last time was that we had a Government which was determined not to prosecute anybody. The only option all of us had was the one the international community provided. Nothing had stopped the Kenyan Government from prosecuting those involved in crime. But because they refused to do so at the time they brought a similar Bill before us, all of us felt compelled to give justice to these victims. The only way to give justice to them was to find other options. Since we had failed as a country to try them, was there a possibility to try them elsewhere? That is how we rejected the Government Bill. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, now that this Bill is hybrid, it gives a possibility for those of us who feel--- The Head of State is not synonymous with Kenya. This should be very clear. God forbid if we have a Head of State who blatantly breaks the law and because he is the Head of State you cannot try him, we are going to lose the country. Nobody should ever tell us that crimes committed by sitting Heads of State are synonymous with Kenyans. It is not! We must have a distinction here.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this chance to also contribute to this Bill. In so doing, I want to salute the courageous Members of Parliament since Independence who have at very critical times spoken without fear or favour on behalf of people of this country. Change was never brought by people who just followed the wave or by the people who never read even a Bill like this to understand it, it was brought by those who read widely so that once they contributed they did so from an informed position. I have read this Bill no less than three times. I have discussed it with the lawyers and understood it. This Bill provides both for Hague and a Special Tribunal here. Section 5(1) says:- âWithout prejudice to (1) above, the Tribunal may invoke Article 14 of the Rome Statute if deemed necessary and for the avoidance of doubt, it is declared that the person or persons on the list submitted to the International Criminal Court by the Chair of the Panel of Eminent African personalities shall be deemed to have been referred to the International Criminal Court.â It can never be any clearer than this. Those people who are in the Waki list have been referred to Hague. Yesterday when we were at KICC witnessing the launch of the Draft Constitution, we were shown a clip where Kenyans were hacking each other to death and police shooting them. Many of us shed tears and yet, people do not want justice meted on those people who maimed others, raped or shot others dead. They want to play politics. They want political expedience out of this unfortunate situation. When a similar Bill was brought to this House, most of the people who were guilty preferred the Hague option. They thought Hague option will never happen. They believed it will take years and, probably, it will not happen and they will go scot-free. The other side voted also for Hague because we had no confidence in the Judicial system in this country. So, the two sides converged to prefer Hague option to local tribunal. However, Hague can only prosecute a handful of people. What about those other people who committed crime against humanity? We must provide for a mechanism to try them without impeding or creating roadblocks for them as would happen in the current Constitution where we take people to court and then they ask for constitutional reference and the matters drag forever without being concluded. This Special Tribunal is so important. It will be contained in an amendment to the Constitution such that when this Bill is passed and assented to by the President, nobody will move to the High Court for constitutional interpretation. We have been speaking about impunity. If we do not punish the hundreds of people who participated in this very heinous crime, are we ending this impunity? The 2012 elections may be much worse than what happened in 2007. If we do nothing to deter the perpetrators and other people who contributed to the post-election violence; those who raped and, maimed others, 2012 elections could be much worse. That is why it is so important that we pass this Bill, even if only to guarantee peaceful elections in 2012.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. This Bill before us is a Constitutional Bill and I wonder whether we are really utilizing our time effectively. Personally, I do not like being a hypocrite. Why can we not just put this Bill to the vote and then we do away with it, because it appears that there is no interest in it. I am suggesting, with your indulgence, that you call the---
Order, Mr. Mbadi! We have not reached that part.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for protecting me and the rights of Kenyans; thousands of them who died. Some of us lost relatives and so, we can feel the pain. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Rome Statute and the International Crimes Act do not provide immunity for anybody. I would want to go on record as having said that every Kenyanâs life should be equal to that of every other Kenyan. If one Kenyan commits a crime it does not matter their position in society. They should be able to face justice just as well as the man on the streets. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have the Truth, Justice and Reconciliation Commission (TJRC). We are supposed to be reconciling and yet, all we are hearing in Rift Valley are war cries. Is this how we are going to reconcile? The only way to reconcile this country, call for compensation for the victims and guarantee peaceful 2012 elections is for us â men of courage and conviction â to pass this Bill and be on the right side of history when we are judged by it. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, with those few remarks, I beg to support this Bill.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Bill before the House is largely a repeat of the Bill that we had some time back, which was hugely opposed and rejected. But we do realize that there are sections that have improved on the material quality of the Bill. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, more important is the spirit of the House. Without contemplating the results of this Bill, we need to be very candid and frank. There is an apparent disinterest in this Bill, particularly so because of the works that have happened, and I think it provides a great lesson. The Mover has done good research. He
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am trying to follow the contribution of my good friend. I do not know whether actually he is supporting the Bill or he is not. He is my friend and I want to know what he is contributing on.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Mr. Affey is still in an ambassadorial mood. I think we should dispatch him to Somalia to continue with the work that he was engaged in. Thank you, very much.
Hon. Kabando wa Kabando, are you supporting the Bill or not?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am coming to that statement and I have every right, as a political scientist to build the anatomy of my statement, and you must be patient and consume this information. Therefore, because we have done things that have been facilitated by our international friends, and because we have a National Accord that has brought this Coalition Government together and because as Parliament, we have enjoyed facilitation and, even escalation of our capacity by the international community--- But, because we have failed collectively to do certain things that can make a foundation for good governance, and because we have shown doublespeak and confusion, even making statements that actually contradict what we have agreed to do or what we stated yesterday, my submission is that what we need is a very strong international whip; those interventions that will allow us have logic and rationality that will put us on a pedestal of visibility where we can be seen to be a nation that is actually in control. But to pretend otherwise, is clear deception and it cannot endure. This Bill seeks to do two things that are necessary to punish those who perpetrated post-election violence. But it will be hypocritical for us to pretend that in this Government and in this Cabinet, all of us are innocent. It will be hypocritical for us even in this House, we who could not talk to each other for the better part of last year, some of who celebrated the massacres that were happening and issuing statements. My declaration is that, what we need is a whip that this House called for the prime suspects. That would be the biggest and the most significant message to be taken away. There should not be any fear or any ethnic or Government protection.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to register that, last year, many of these Members, and the country knows that I was a recipient of a communication from the American Ambassador supposedly to explain my role in promoting peace and ethnic reconciliation in the Republic of Kenya. I never sought support from any Member of Parliament from my region, from my ethnic community, Parliamentary Group nor did I seek any information or assistance from Ministers or from the President. I dealt with it personally, as a son of a woman! Through that, I travelled to America and gave an address during an convocation as the Chief Guest at the State University of New York, because I was sure of whom I am. The business of rushing to your ethnic group, making declarations and saying that your ethnic group is being finished, your religious community is being affected, or your political party is being affected is all nonsense, pettiness and triviality that cannot hold. Let there be a first step of arresting and trying perpetrators upon comprehensive investigations which will be done by Mr. Ocampo. However, we have heard people in Government and in Parliament talking from the crescendo of their village hills,saying that they will not listen to President Obama, they will not listen to Dr. Anan and that they will not listen to Mr. Ocampo. That is a shame! Dr. Anan is an eminent African. We are the ones who called him here. Kenyans know that he brought a resolution to our dispute. President Obama is a celebrity, internationally, and more so in Kenya, being the only country that set aside a public holiday upon his election. Our CEO, the President and our coordinator and supervisor for Government, the Prime Minister, wrote a letter within 24 hours to congratulate him when
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the hon. Member in order to speak in Sheng when he is supposed to be speaking in English?
You should speak in one language.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I can only withdraw. However, I explained myself in English.
Mr. Kabando wa Kabando, could you withdraw?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have withdrawn. I do that humbly and in acknowledgement that I have given Mr. Mututho a few lessons in Kiswahili. I will conclude by saying that I oppose this Bill because my conscience and foresight tells me that it is unlikely to have any impact. I, therefore, call upon the Mover and those who have supported it to take solace and consolation in the fact and reality that the dawn of justice being done to the girls and the women who were raped, the poor victims whose purported crime was only to have voted otherwise, or just because we did not have evidence of how somebody voted--- Voting was made criminal because we belonged to ethnic groups. Perhaps, voting was not accepted by certain people because it did not measure to their criteria. These are weighty things. I can see the confusion that we have, not just in the House, but everywhere about this matter. That is why there is no single position of the Government. Therefore, nobody should claim to speak on behalf of the Government of Kenya with regard to this matter. No one should claim to speak on behalf of a Parliamentary group. No one can claim to speak on behalf of any caucus. The message must come out because the consolation and solace is built on pain and not because people do not want to support this Bill. Those who are the main beneficiaries of the post-election violence--- Evidence will come out and reality will dawn on them that they should never repeat those heinous actions . There is nothing that prevents our courts from trying those who were executing people in the streets and those who were carrying pangas. That will be done. We can do it because there is nothing that prevents the Attorney-General of this country from carrying out investigations even today. I do not know why we should be seeking protection of any office. I strongly oppose, so that we move to The Hague.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think as Kenyans, we must ask ourselves two fundamental questions. One, in January and February this year, a similar Bill was before this House. People made very passionate arguments and some made very technical arguments. We must start from there and ask why people were anxious about the Bill as it had been presented at that time. One of those reasons was the fear that the process was not insulated from the ability of the Attorney-General to take over matters and extinguish prosecution. You can well understand why Kenyans felt that way. This is because we
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this very Bill which I support.
You heard some of my fellow legislators before who have mentioned the issue of video clips which were played at the KICC yesterday by the Committee of Experts on Constitutional Review. That was only for less than ten minutes, but took the hearts of everyone who was there seeing fellow Kenyans murdering each other, hitting each other with different types of weapons. I wish the same thing would have been shown to other Members in one of the Kamukunjis, so that we realize what really had happened at that time.
The issue of impunity did not start during the 2007 General Election. It was started when white settlers and explorers came to Kenya starting from the Coast Province to the hinterland. They did not respect the people who they met. There was no rule of law. Our land was taken and, at that time, the Government governed with impunity. Some of us have been trying to ask ourselves: Why now? What happened when the same Bill was brought here and almost many of us opposed it? There are really fundamental reasons. One of the issues was compensation to those affected and the other issue was whether we should go for the Hague option or local tribunal. With this Bill, both are allowed. In fact, that particular Bill did not reach the required standards. That was why many of us decided to oppose it. I would like to remind many of us who are here that 1,200 innocent Kenyans lost their lives without any fault of their own. We should not forget that over 300,000 Kenyans were internally displaced. Last night, we saw on our television screens some Kenyans living and sleeping by the roadsides just because of the 2007 post-election violence.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Are you aware that we have no quorum in the House to continue discussing this very important Bill?
Indeed, Clerks-at-the Table, could you ascertain that we do not have quorum in the House? Ring the Division Bell?
Hon. Members, due to lack of quorum, I will now interrupt the business of the House. The House, is therefore, adjourned until today afternoon, Wednesday, November 18th, 2009, at 2.30 p.m.
The House rose at 11.43 a.m.