Hon. Members, you will recall that the harmonized Draft Constitution of Kenya was published by the Committee of Experts on Constitutional Review on the 17th November, 2009 pursuant to section 32 (1) (a) (i) of the Constitution of Kenya Review Act, 2008. The National Assembly has organized a two-day non- residential retreat for all Members of Parliament at Safari Park Hotel, on 4th and 5th December, 2009. The retreat is intended to familiarize Members of Parliament with the Draft Constitution, so as to achieve a better understanding of the proposals contained in the Draft, and enable Members build consensus on contentious issues from an informed perspective. The retreat will be facilitated by the Parliamentary Caucus for Reforms, and it is a follow up to the one day seminar held at Naivasha between the 19th and the 22nd November, 2009. All Members are invited to attend. Thank you.
On a point of Order Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am a member of the Parliamentary Reform Caucus, and we have just come from a meeting where we have decided that in view of the fact that the ODM will be having a meeting in Mombasa, and pastoralist leaders will also be having a similar meeting, matters of quorum will be a problem. We have requested that the conference you are talking about be held next week.
You have not communicated that information to the Chair! You knew that the Chair would give a communication so that Members of Parliament are informed. Today is the 3rd, tomorrow is the 4th and Saturday is the 5th. If Members are expected to be there on the 4th and the 5th, they must get the communication. This is the time to do it; so, you failed in your responsibility to co- ordinate this and--- You can come and approach the Chair at your own time and tell us what needs to be done. You do not rise on a point of order on such things. You rise on a point of Order when something is out of order; what was out of order?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to give Notice of the following Motion:- THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Departmental Committee on Education, Research and Technology on the inquiry into the students disturbances at the Kenyatta University in March, 2009 laid on the Table of the House on Thursday, 3rd December, 2009.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Livestock Development the following Question by Private Notice.
(a) Is the Minister aware that herders from Isiolo have invaded farms in Buuri and Lower Imenti Forest in North Imenti Constituency, with herds of camel, and are causing destruction to crops and recently-planted tree seedlings and exposing the dairy cattle in the region to diseases;
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) Yes, I am aware that some herders moved their livestock from Isiolo towards Buuri, crossed into Imenti North and finally camped at Lower Imenti Forest at Ruiri and Kithoka boundary. The herders, as Mr. Ruteere may be aware, moved from Isiolo area due to the severe drought that ravaged most parts of this country especially northern Kenya, leading to ethnic conflicts that took place in the middle of November, 2009. I am also aware that these herders were trying to go to Tana River District by trekking along the road via Mwingi District, with over 2,000 camels and 4,000 sheep and goats. While there were reported cases of vegetation degradation in the forested areas, no farm land invasion has been reported so far. I wish to inform Mr. Ruteere that trekking along the road poses obvious dangers of spreading diseases to other areas as well the trekked animals. To mitigate the disease threat, especially the dairy cattle in North Imenti, my Ministry has undertaken a major vaccination campaign where over 150 head of cattle, 90 goats and 95 sheep have been vaccinated against Rift Valley fever, Blackquarter and Anthrax. Plans are under way to step up these vaccinations in Buuri and North Imenti districts within the coming months. Moreover, my Ministry has put in place an elaborate disease surveillance and reporting system in the entire country for early disease detection. (b) I am aware of the threat of conflict between the communities involved, especially due to the scarce pasture and water during the dry period. That is why more of our officers and more Government departments including the Provincial Administration and the Forestry Department have taken the initiative of intervening to avert any clashes between the said communities. However, local leadership should also be actively involved in ensuring that peace in this region succeeds. (b) On the issue that some herders are armed, the Government is not aware of any herdsmen who are armed in that particular area. (c) To avert a possible confrontation, a meeting was held on 26th November, 2009, by all the parties concerned and it was agreed that the herders should leave the area latest by 30th November, 2009. Since the majority of North Eastern Province and Isiolo, in particular, have received high rainfall, we expect most of those herders to go back to their original districts.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Ministerâs answer is very shocking. One, he has said that the herdsmen are not armed when it is obvious that they are armed to the teeth. It is also obvious that what they have can be seen because they do not hide their guns. Those herders also threaten the local community. Secondly, the Assistant Minister has said that there are over 4,000 camels, goats and sheep. When those camels and sheep move across the farms, is it possible for them not to enter the farms with recently germinated crops like maize and beans and destroy them? Is it the policy of the Ministry of Livestock Development that when there are ethnic clashes, those herders should take their livestock to the forests? Does the Kenya Wildlife Service (KWS) allow livestock to graze in forests? The Assistant Minister has
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member claims that the herders are armed and the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security has stated that there is already a mop up exercise to collect arms from all the communities around the Isiolo ecosystem. On the issue of the camels, sheep, goats and the cattle which move around as a result of the drought, my Ministry in conjunction with the farmers association, the Kenya Livestock Marketing Council (KLMC) and the community at large, is talking to the agricultural farmers to ensure that they live alongside the pastoralist communities.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is a weighty matter. It is an issue that has caused a lot of conflict and I think it is due to the failure of the Government not to deliver services to the pastoralist communities. What is the root cause of all those problems? That is what we want to know.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Question was very specific. It was about livestock movement between Isiolo District and North Imenti. As the hon. Member has said, the security situation in Isiolo is complex. I am sure the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security and all the security actors are addressing that problem. I have said earlier on that already, there is a mop up exercise in the area. The Government is addressing the root cause of the insecurity in Isiolo.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, my concern is that the herders have brought camels and other livestock to areas whose livestock is not used to camel diseases. This will lead to resurgence of new diseases. Is the Assistant Minister prepared to pay for the immunization of that livestock? Could he also confirm that he will pay the various farmers whose crops have been destroyed?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is the mandate of the Ministry of Livestock Development to ensure that any livestock, whether camels, goats or rabbits are treated and vaccinated whenever there is disease outbreak. I assure the hon. Member that we will do that. On the issue of compensation, if that is quantified and presented to us, we will look at it. We will also discuss this matter with the other Ministries which are involved.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is a very dangerous trend. Whenever there are ethnic clashes elsewhere, those who are evicted from their places go and cause havoc elsewhere. Could the Assistant Minister confirm to this House that whenever there are ethnic clashes elsewhere, they will not go and provoke other people into fighting because North Imenti people will not bear this any longer? Today is the final day!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is the mandate of any legitimate Government to protect its people and maintain law and order. We will make sure there are no ethnic clashes that will happen in our country at all times. I want to assure the hon. Member that North Imenti and Isiolo will be very peaceful and agricultural farmers and livestock farmers will co-exist as brothers and sisters in this country.
asked the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance:-
(a) why the procurement of the Enterprise Resource Planning System (ERPS) at a cost of Kshs135 million by the Kenya Medical Supplies Agency (KEMSA) through tender No.KICT/KEMSA/2008-2009 was done through the Kenya ICT Board instead of KEMSA or the Ministryâs established procurement framework;
(b) to provide details of the members of the tender evaluation committee, including their names, employer and their relevant competence as far as this job is concerned; and,
(c) whether he could also table a copy of the signed evaluation reports, the tender opening documents and the tender award notification.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) This matter was referred to the Public Procurement Oversight Authority (PPOA) for review and guidance on the way forward. The PPOA took cognizance of the concerns raised and transferred the procuring authority from KEMSA to the Kenya ICT Board who are more conversant with complex ICT systems. The transfer of the procuring authority is consistent with the authority given to PPOA by law. In particular, Section 27(6) of the Public Procurement and Disposal Act, 2005, provides as follows:-
âThe authority (PPOA) shall have power to transfer the procuring responsibility of a procuring entity to another procuring entity or procuring agent in the event of delay or in such other instances as may be prescribed.â
Section 18(1) of the subsidiary legislation also provides:-
âPursuant to the provisions of Section 27(6) of the Act, the Authority may transfer the procuring responsibility of a procuring entity to another procuring entity or procuring agent:-
(a) where the Authority is of the view that the procuring entity lacks the capacity to comply with the Act or these regulations or the directions issued by the Authority due to size or capacity.â
(b) Both the second and third Questions were addressed by my colleague, the Minister for Medical Services, Prof. Anyangâ-Nyongâo, and the requested documents tabled in the House at that time.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, first of all, the minutes that Prof. Anyangâ-Nyongâo, tabled are not signed. The valuation report has got 67 pages, but only 45 pages were tabled. He left out the technical and financial evaluation. So, the answer from the Minister for Medical Services is not satisfactory. Nevertheless, on the issue of the transfer of the procurement to the ICT Board, the Assistant Minister for Finance has not shown how Kenya Medical Supplies Agency (KEMSA) lacked the capacity to procure. That is because as far as we know, KEMSA is empowered to procure medical services for this country and it has got the capacity. Mr.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the transfer of that tender to another procurement agency was done after KEMSA had attempted to procure. One of the people who tendered complained to the Public Procurement Oversight Authority that there were irregularities. Some of the irregularities that were noted in the original tender which was floated by KEMSA were:-
(a) The procuring entity failed to conduct proper evaluation of the technical and financial proposals as was in the tender document.
(b) The procuring entity did not visit any of the reference sites furnished by the applicant, contrary to the terms of the request proposal. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, because of that, it appeared that KEMSA did not have the capacity and that is why the tender was cancelled by the Public Procurement Oversight Authority (PPOA). That is when it was thought necessary to change the procurement from KEMSA to another procurement entity. Besides that, there were also reports from the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) and other Government oversight organizations which had issued some questions about the capacity of KEMSA. Those are the reasons that informed PPOA to appoint another authority.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, according to the bid evaluation report and the recommendation for award of contract, the company that was awarded the tender by the name of Alliance Technology, gave a bid of Kshs110.4 million. When those people sat, they awarded them the tender and recommended that the company should be given the tender not at Kshs110.3 million which it had tendered, but at Kshs135.8 million. Could the Assistant Minister explain where he got the higher figure from?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is not true that they tendered for 110 million only. If you look at the documents which were tabled here, the tender for construction and installation was for Kshs110,485,740. There was the element of recurrent expenditure. The recurrent cost was Kshs8,300,800. The total recurrent cost was Kshs24,902,400. That is what totalled to Kshs135,308,140. That was the recurrent costs over a period of five years. That is what the documents say.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The document that I am referring to is the same one that was tabled in this House. If the Assistant Minister can care to check on page 18 of that document, he will see that he has given a figure of Kshs135.3 million. That is what you awarded. Then the bid was for Kshs110.4 million. That is found on page 12. Could the Assistant Minister tell us where he is getting the figure of Kshs24 million that he is using as a justification for the difference? Where are you getting it from? Could you table it so that we can also compare with what we have?
Can you table the document that you are referring to, yourself?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, maybe, I can have a look at that document, including the minutes that the hon. Member said were not signed. The amount of money which was awarded was Kshs135,308,000. The difference is the recurrent expenditure which was included in all the bids which were there. If you check carefully, all of them
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, what was the involvement of KEMSA and the parent Ministry in that tender? If they were involved at all, who did the letter of the award of that tender?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Authority which was given the responsibility to award the tender is the one which awarded the tender. But the Minister for Medical Services was before this House on this particular tender. Ours, as the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Ministry of Finance, was to deal with the reasons as to why the matter was transferred back. But every Ministry has its own tendering unit and carries out the process itself.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the Assistant Minister in order to mislead the House that the reason why he is here is to answer about the transfer when, in fact, the reason why the Speaker ordered this Question to be referred to the Ministry of Finance is because the Minister for Medical Services said he could answer why the amount was increased from Kshs110 million to Kshs135 million? The HANSARD can bear me witness.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have answered why that difference is there.
Which is what?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the difference is because of the recurrent expenditure which was included in all the tenders, including the one which they are referring to.
A recurrent expenditure on a tender?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it was included in the tender for a period of five years. There was a tender---
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I had requested that he tables the document that justifies the Kshs24 million. Surely, when he says that the Kshs24 million was for recurrent expenditure, it is only after we have read that we can appreciate what recurrent expenditure can be there on a tender, moving from Kshs110.3 million to Kshs135 million. What specific recurrent expenditure activities are you talking about?
Hon. Assistant Minister, much as many of us have got very scanty financial knowledge but, nonetheless, an additional recurrent expenditure on a contract bid does not sound--- Maybe, you have the expertise or you can seek it somewhere else and educate us on that.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there are tenders even for consultancy and there are others for various services. When you tender, the consultancy expenditure is included in the tender. It can only be wrong if it is not included in the tender documents. But for this particular one, it was included in the tender documents and all the people who tendered included this particular expenditure; and it is in the document which was tabled here.
But that then would be the bid amounts. Why do you have the bid amounts as a separate amount? Ordinarily, in a tender, when you bid, you put all your costs and then you give that as the tender sum or the contract sum. I do not know,
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, yes, I am an accountant and a member of ICPAK and not only that. I was a director of finance--- So, at least, I know about the procurement conditions.
But, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if the Assistant Minister looks at the document which was tabled here, the evaluation report, from Page 1 to 35, it says: âWhoever is quoting should include the recurrent costs.â In fact, the Chair has got it right all through. You asked him the Assistant Minister: âHow can one tender for something and in between, you start bringing in other components?â That is not possible under the procurement rules. So, that is the question the Assistant Minister is avoiding to answer and that is the reason why the Minister for Medical Services could not answer and Dr. Oburu is trying to avoid answering. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is also in your knowledge that, last week; this Ministry had refused to answer this Question and the Chair forced them to come and answer the Question today. As you can hear, they are still going round and avoiding giving a satisfactory answer.
On a point of information, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Dr. Oburu, are you inclined to accept a point of information from hon. Mbadi?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, first, I want to inform the Assistant Minister that, consultancy forms part of capital expenditure. So, it can never be recurrent expenditure. But, besides that, I think the Assistant Minister can do justice to this House by telling us exactly what he is referring to as recurrent expenditure so that we can help him know whether it is recurrent or capital; because if he just says that it is recurrent without knowing what it is, then we cannot help him.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, when the award was given, in the tender, there was no separate recurrent, equipment and installation expenditure costs. The tender was awarded at Kshs135 million. What is there is only the breakdown which gave the installation, equipment and then recurrent expenditures separately and that is what came to Kshs135 million. Therefore, I do not know where they are getting this idea that there was Kshs110 million. This amount of Kshs110 million was only for installation and the equipment itself, then recurrent expenditure. That is what was awarded; the award was Kshs135 million. There is nowhere that these people tendered for Kshs110 million. They tendered for Kshs135 million shilling.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Assistant Minister is not responding to the Question that is being asked. Over and above, he has said that Kshs110 million was for the equipment and installation. Then to make that amount go up to Kshs135 million, we are asking; what is it that the Assistant Minister is calling the recurrent expenditure? What was that cost?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have said that there was also a requirement for maintenance and servicing of the equipment for a period of five years.
Hon. Assistant Minister, which company was awarded this contract?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Alliance Technologies---
But then here it says the Collected, Discounted, Supply and Installation price.
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The installation cost---
When you look at it, you see that it actually has got a better bid than the others; Collected Systems, EIM Solutions Limited and finally, the Alliance Technology Limited.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Alliance Technologies Limited were the lowest in this tender and they tendered for Kshs110 million---
This tender shows Kshs110 million here on the documents that are here and which were tabled on the Floor of the House; the PV evaluation report and the recommendation for the award of contract.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have explained that the Kshs110 million was for the cost of equipment and installation. The balance was for the maintenance of the equipment for over a period of five years.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the Assistant Minister in order to start maintaining equipment which has not been installed in this case? What is he maintaining at the rate of Kshs25 million?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the entire supplies contracts, there is always another contract component for maintenance. I do not know whether the hon. Member is hearing it for the first time, but this is very normal in all the contracts.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think you have to help us on this matter. This matter came before the Floor of this House in May this year and we have been going round and round with it. If what the Assistant Minister is saying is true, then that should have been a separate contract advertised and tendered separately. But however, he still has not been able to table the documents as requested by hon. Khalwale. What is it that he says that is recurrent cost? Let him show us so that we can understand. I think he was also informed by hon. Mbadi. So, I think the Assistant Minister is going round and round on this matter and his answer is not satisfactory. I would request that we refer it to â although in the past, the Chair has also ruled that you do not have to â the relevant Committee so that it can go deeper into this matter. Otherwise, we are going to take a lot of time on this matter and the Assistant Minister is taking us round and round and he is saying nothing. Thank you.
Order, Mr. Assistant Minister! The Chair must admit that something does not seem to add up based on our scanty and limited knowledge of finance and accounts. I think I am inclined to proceed now and say that I direct â much as we do not need to direct, but this time, I would like to direct and to put more weight into it to be able to put to rest this very important issue. I direct that the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade should take over this matter, investigate, scrutinize it and report to the House as soon as possible. In the mean time, the Question is deferred until such time that the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade is ready with its report.
asked the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance what measures the Ministry will put in place to ensure adequate supply of coins to facilitate small-scale trade.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. I wish to assure this House that there is adequate stock of currency, both notes and coins in circulation in the country. The amount of coins in circulation has been on the increase year-to-year, and as such, the increasing demand has been fully met. The Government, through the Central Bank of Kenya, will continue to increase issuance of currency to commercial banks through its branches located in Mombasa, Kisumu, Eldoret and at the Head Office in Nairobi to meet the existing demand. The Government has ordered for 85.96 million pieces of coins to be delivered from September, 2009. The members of the public should be encouraged to utilize the coins in their possession for trading purposes instead of storing them away.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Assistant Minister has attempted to answer the Question, but ordering is one thing, whereas putting the coins into circulation is another. Is the Assistant Minister sure that the money that they ordered is actually in circulation?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have just started receiving the coins. We are distributing them through the channels which I have mentioned. Therefore, they are in circulation.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this Question is not a simple matter because when many Kenyans go to a supermarket and purchase an item for Kshs99, they are given a sweet at the point of getting change, even when you are not feeling sweet that day. The reason for that is that there are no coins in circulation. Kenyans are being denied the rightful change in many places. When is the Assistant Minister going to make sure that we have enough coins in the economy, or is there a problem?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there are some problems in certain areas where we do not have enough branches for banks or microfinance institutions to help in the distribution of the coins. However, generally, even where we have enough banks, the other problem which arises is the careless manner in which our people keep coins. They tend to keep them aside. They do not put them into circulation. That could be one of the causes of that problem. However, we shall try to distribute as many coins as the economy would require.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the main reason why many coins are kept away from circulation by people is because of the damage they cause to their pockets. Why can the Ministry not consider printing notes in lower denominations like Kshs10
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that could be done. However, the cost must be considered. The coins last for a very long period. Once you print them, they last for a very long period. However, the notes wear out very quickly and, therefore, the cost is enormous. The coins are, therefore, still a substitute for the notes.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, while the Assistant Minister is saying that he considers the cost, especially from the Ministryâs point of view, does he also consider the cost of damage done to our pockets by the coins that he wants to put in the market?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there are many other ways of keeping coins. You do not have to keep them in your pockets. However, if you do and they damage your pockets, we will advise you to use other ways of keeping the coins.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, before I ask the Question, I would like to add that as per the HANSARD of 17th November, many aspects of this Question had been answered. The only bit that the Minister is supposed to answer is on how he acted on the recommendation of the Attorney-General.
Order, Mr. Washiali. You should just ask the Question. Have you asked the Question?
This is the second time that this Question is coming to the Floor of the House.
No! It is now on the Floor of the House. Unless you feel that it was disposed of adequately, you still have to ask the Question. Even if it is a quarter of it that had not been dealt with, you will still have to ask the Question.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for that correction.
asked the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security:- (a) Whether he could explain the circumstances under which Police Corporal Richard Obwayo Nerima (Force No.53135) was dismissed from the service; and, (b) whether due procedure was followed in his dismissal.
Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir, indeed, what the hon. Member has said is true. The part which was remaining required the Attorney-General to advise the Ministry of State for provincial Administration and Internal Security. We have already received letters recommending Mr. Nerima to be reinstated or be paid his dues. We will consider the recommendations from the Attorney-Generalâs Office. In the meantime, I will ask the Questioner to ask Mr. Nerima to re-appeal for his case to be reconsidered, given the fact that we have the recommendations from the Attorney-Generalâs Office.
Are you satisfied?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have no objection if the Assistant Minister will consider the recommendations by the Attorney-Generalâs Office. He has also asked me to ask Nerima to re-appeal. I hope that the re-appeal will not be subjected to further scrutiny.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I do not know whether you heard the Assistant Minister. He was given advice by none other than the Attorney- General of the Republic to either reinstate or pay. Before he goes ahead to act on the recommendation of the advisor of the Government, he is asking Mr. Nerima to appeal. Why can he not act on the advice of Mr. Wako and reinstate Mr. Nerima without further ado?
Hon. Assistant Minister, the hon. Attorney-General is the Principal Legal Adviser. He has advised you. The choice is yours. You should tell us whether you will reinstate or compensate him. Those are the only two answers you need to give. Which one do you intend to give now?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am very clear on this issue. I had already seen the Member and talked to him. We have agreed that we will consider the recommendations given by the Attorney-General. That is it!
That is a fair answer; that you will either reinstate him or pay him. Thank the Attorney-General!
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would like to thank the Assistant Minister. All I need to request is that whatever action they are going to take should be within the next two to three weeks.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not want to confirm or deny that we will fast-track it. What I know is that we will act on the recommendations of the Attorney-General.
asked the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security:- (a) Whether he could lay on the Table the proposed protocol on the Prevention, Combating and Eradication of Cattle Rustling in East Africa, signed by majority States in Eastern and Horn Region in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia in 2008;
(b) when the Kenya Government will ratify the protocol; and, (c) what urgent steps the Government is taking to implement the protocol.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) I hereby lay on the Table, the proposed draft protocol.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank the Assistant Minister for the answer he has given. However, if you look at the response to part (c) of the Question, you will find that he has given standard responses like âI am sensitizing this or I am increasing the number of police personnel and vehiclesâ. We need figures. But more importantly, if you look between 1990 and 1999, you will find that the economic loss came to about Kshs30 billion due to cattle rustling. Between 2000 and 2002, cattle rustling led to about 1,200 loss of lives. Therefore, there was urgency in the Government responding to this protocol and I thank the Assistant Minister for signing it in Addis Ababa in September last year. How long does a Minister in the Government, knowing the urgency and the magnitude of the problem, take to ratify a protocol that is necessary, needed and will solve this problem once and for all?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the protocol has taken a regional dimension because it involves co-operation between those countries. The protocol also requires legislation and there is a draft Bill on Anti-Cattle Rustling. The protocol also involves public education and peace building. I agree with the hon. Member that it has taken long to ratify the protocol but I have explained that this should be done through the Cabinet and that is already in place. The draft Bill is also in place. In the meantime, we have engaged ourselves, as agreed, between the Ministry and the Members of Parliament from the affected areas in our Naivasha meeting held recently. We have agreed on a disarmament programme. We have also given some amnesty for a period of time before we engage in the disarmament programme. I agree that this is a serious matter but it is receiving attention.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister tell the House whether there is any input from the communities affected in the proposed protocol?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there has been a series of meetings and that protocol involves several countries. There have been consultations internally. I am sure the hon. Member is aware that in 2004, we agreed to carry out the disarmament exercise where our communities surrendered 60 per cent of guns voluntarily. Indeed, there is an input and I advise the hon. Member to read the various aspects on this matter. The hon. Member who has asked this Question is also a Member of the Parliamentary Select Committee that looks into matters regarding cattle rustling. That is part of the process of involving the people.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, according to the answer given by the Assistant Minister, this will take forever, just like the findings which have taken forever. When will the Assistant Minister, the Ministry or the Government involve the people who practice cattle rustling because all the meetings that have been held have been held in hotels? Cattle rustling goes on in the villages as meetings are held in hotels. So, when will the meetings planned by the Government take place under trees so that the people practicing this vice can come up with a solution?
You have made your point, Mr. Murgor.
Proceed, Mr. Assistant Minister!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, these meetings are taking place simultaneously. I am sure the hon. Member is aware the Government has moved in to mop up arms from the communities involved in cattle rustling. We will soon start with hotspot areas like Isiolo. We have met with the leaders including Members of Parliament and councillors. We are arranging a series of meetings on the ground with the religious leaders from various communities through the Provincial Commissioner. This is because part of the problem can be solved through dialogue and organized grazing and utilization of certain resources such as water by those communities.
Mr. Ethuro, ask the last question!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this protocol was signed by the Minister in August, 2008 and today is on 3rd December, 2009. How long does the Cabinet take in order to ratify a simple protocol that we, as a third party, have signed? The protocol has many issues and that is why we are keen on its signing. Does the Assistant Minister want the Attorney-General of the Republic of Kenya to come to his aid to expedite the process?
Mr. Attorney-General, this has to do with the ratification and the signing of protocols. I was at a loss initially as to how the Assistant Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security is supposed to give an answer on the ratification and signing of a protocol.
Mr. Assistant Minister, do you want the Attorney-Generalâs assistance?
No, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Under the Kenyan arrangements it merely requires executive decisions to be taken through the Cabinet. We have prepared a Cabinet Paper and it does not require any other process. I have just explained to the hon. Member that the Cabinet Paper is ready but it has not been approved. So, I want to pursue this matter with the Cabinet because I am also affected by this menace.
The hon. Member, conscious of the problems that this issue has brought to his community seeks from your Ministry some form of a time-frame. They lose lives and animals everyday. So, can you give a time-frame? You cannot come here one-and-a-half years later and say that they will still ratify that document.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the matter is before the Cabinet. I consider it very serious and I will pursue it through the Cabinet Office so that it can be brought forward as a matter of priority.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I have a lot of sympathy for this Assistant Minister because he suffers just like me. However, could he confirm to this House that his capacity to ensure that the protocol is ratified by the Cabinet is limited to the extent that he cannot sit in the Cabinet? That is why we call upon someone who sits in the Cabinet to confirm to this House about this matter which is serious.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there are many critical issues in that Cabinet Paper that call for the creation of an inter-Ministerial agency, a vote to provide the resources, the involvement of the Ministry of Livestock Development and the Ministry of Northern Kenya and other Arid Lands to provide resources. We are also required to bring a Bill to this House to increase the penalties because cattle rustling falls under other sections of the Penal Code. The penalties are not severe and we intend to recommend life sentence for people who engage in cattle rustling. I would like to say that while the Cabinet and Budget matters are being processed, there is nothing that can prevent us from pursuing a number of options. The hon. Member is fully involved in addressing these matters in different capacities.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. We, as a House, are very worried that on this most urgent matter, the Assistant Minister is telling us that the Cabinet will consider this. We are aware that this Cabinet is unable to sit, leave alone being able to agree. What assurances could he give the House that he will come here with an answer and when?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not have an answer to that, since I do not sit in the Cabinet. However, I will pursue this subject vigorously. We are only talking about being able to implement what at a national level, we should be able to implement.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we also require co-operation from other countries. So, as we do our own internal implementation, we should also continue working with our regional neighbours.
Next Question, Mr. Olago. Is hon. Olago, by chance, be out of Nairobi or country on official parliamentary business?
I am made to understand that hon. Olago has sent his apology. He is unable to be with us due to circumstances beyond his control. So, we will defer this Question to a time when will be available.
asked the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security:- (a) whether he is aware that Sook, Chepareria and Kongelai Divisions in West Pokot District have had no District Officers for the last one year; And, (b) what the Government is doing to solve the problem?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) Yes, I am aware that Chepareria and Kongelai Divisions do not have District Officers for the last 5 months and Sook for the last one year. (b) The Government is at the moment recruiting District Officers through the Public Service Commission. Once the process of recruitment is complete, divisions without District Officers will be filled immediately.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Assistant Minister for trying to answer the Question. However, it is the same reply we have received for the last two years. Sook and Kongelai Divisions have stayed for over two years without a DO. It was only Chepareria Division that had one who left in the last six months. When exactly will the Ministry post DOs to these divisions? Kongelai Division is along the border and is prone to conflict between Kenya and Uganda. We are facing serious security situation in these divisions.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, shortage of Dos is very critical. This was necessitated by promotions of a number of Dos to become District Commissioners with the creation of a number of new Districts. Right now, we are interviewing about 200 District Officers. I am discussing with the District Commissioner for the possibility of sourcing for a DO within the province instead of waiting for the process of recruitment to be over. I do realize the serious security situation you are facing in your constituency.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like the Assistant Minister to confirm to this House the criteria they use for posting DOs. I want him to confirm that because West Pokot District and my district have serious issues of security. We need every available Government officer to be posted as a matter of priority. Could he confirm to this House that all the vacant positions in insecurity prone areas will be given priority when they post the new Dos?
Yes, indeed, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we will give priority to areas which are experiencing insecurity.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am satisfied with the answer given by the Assistant Minister.
asked the Attorney General:- (a) whether he could confirm that a farm measuring 530 acres in Kiambu owned by Mboi Kamiti Farmers Company Ltd was sold through the Court in Nairobi HCC 107 of 2005 for a debt of Ksh3.7 million and that some directors of the company sued the company for emoluments and were paid by the court in the aforesaid suit from proceeds of the sale of the farm; and, (b) what action the Attorney General plans to take to curb the apparent conspiracies to illegally sell off the company assets at throw- away prices.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) Neither the Attorney-General nor any Ministry or Department of the Government was party to the suit No.107 of 2005. Therefore, the Attorney-General is not in a position to either confirm as requested or deny it. (b) If there are imminent conspiracies to illegally sell off the assets of Mboi Kamiti Farmers Limited at throw away prices, the parties adversely affected should seek legal remedy by way of appropriate civil proceeding and application and or report the same to the police for investigations.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not satisfied by the answer given by the Attorney-General. I want to table documents in relation to this matter, showing a plaint was instituted claiming Kshs3.7 million against Mboi Kamiti. There was an order that was issued by consent in relation to that order. Following that order, the property of this company was actually sold to a company by the name Chrick Estates Limited for Kshs100 million. Subsequently, there are documents showing how this money has been received by third parties and not the owners. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, lastly, there is also a document showing that a plaint was drawn by the directors claiming Kshs87 million by purporting to be employees. These are directors paying themselves this money. There is a list of directors and how they paid themselves this money. There is also an affidavit by one lady of Mboi Kamiti---
Hon. Baiya, much as the Chair would want to give you a leeway, conscious of the fact that there is a serious matter on your hand, but again, you are supposed to ask a question.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am touching on the last document showing that the Attorney-Generalâs office has been implicated through certain fraudulent characters who have even purported to appoint directors on behalf Mboi Kamiti. Those transactions are being sanctioned from the Attorney-generalâs office. So, I am very surprised. I would want him to react to these documents.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we were not party to this case and neither were we party to whatever happened thereafter. That is the position. I cannot confirm or
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I am only complaining that even the Attorney-General has not seen the affidavit containing complaints about his office or even about crimes that have been committed from his office; he is asking the citizens of this country to go and complain to the police about maladministration of justice in his office. That is very unfortunate, and is a very casual way of handling this matter by the Attorney-General!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the fact of the matter is that my office only gets involved, not in the activities of the companies, but it gets involved when it becomes an issue of election of directors and the filing of returns after the elections. My office then either registers them or does not. I can tell you - and this is a separate issue from the issue of this case â that as far as the disputes amongst directors is concerned as to who is or who is not a director, and whether meetings have taken place or not, there are more than four court cases pending on the matter. The courts have now ordered a consolidation of those cases, and they are due for mention on 9th December, 2009. Therefore, my office, particularly the Registrar of Companies, is involved in that aspect. As to the question he has asked, we are not involved in the internal running and management of companies.
Hon. Baiya, I am trying to go through these documents to see whether there is anything that was directed to the Attorney-General and where he has failed to act. The assertion by the Attorney-General is that this is a company matter, hence a private matter.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would refer you to documents listed as Document No. 12 in that list. It is an affidavit sworn by a former director, where she did say that the Attorney-Generalâs Office had been involved in registering particular persons as directors with a view to facilitating the transactions in question.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is a company with over 10,000 members and its properties are being fraudulently taken over with connivance from the Attorney- Generalâs Office, but without his knowledge. We have tabled these documents for him and he does not even have the interest to even look at them! He simply says that he is not a party to the case.
Order, Hon. Baiya! The documents I have here do not include Document No. 12. The last document here is Document No 11(L), unless I do not have the whole bundle; this is what you tabled.
I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. It is numbered 11A, an affidavit by Gladys Waithera Kamau sworn on the 1st day of October. It is a statutory declaration.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, just taking---
Do you want to acquaint yourself with the statutory declarations?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, just taking what he has stated, it confirms my version, that the issue of registration of directors--- That is an issue which is a subject matter of four cases. One is High Court Civil Application No. 127 of 2009, where the applicants are former directors of the company; they seek prerogative orders of
petition against the Registrar of Companies for registering some directors and they want the latter to be quashed. That matter is to be mentioned in court on 9th of December, 2009. Another application is by another set of people, directors and so on - High Court Civil Application No. 258 of 2009, which is also coming up for mention on 9th December, 2009. Then, we have another one of the same type, but with different people involved.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, what has been happening--- That is why I have said it is an issue of registration of directors, and this company is replete with disagreements between directors over a long period of time. What has been happening is that they have been having annual general meetings, or meetings, where they elect directors who then have submitted returns to the Registrar of Companies. Then there is no objection and then once they are registered, there has been another group objecting to the registration. Then they have held discussions with the Registrar of Companies who has advised them: âWhy can you not, all of you â I do not know how many groups there are â sit down together and agree on when you can jointly have an annual general meeting and elect directorsâ? This has been going on and, consequently, there are four High Court applications pending. That is why we thought, quite rightly so, that for all these issues to be resolved, the issue of the registration of directors--- By the way, each set of directors is alleging that the other directors are about to sell off the assets of the company illegally. Now, in order to solve the issue of the directors of Mbo-i-Kamiti, it was thought wise that all these four different cases should be consolidated, and that is why the matter is coming up on 9th December, 2009. Then, I am quite sure the statutory declaration is, maybe, about one of the cases and so on. The matter will be sorted out properly and conveniently.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, what I will really urge the hon. Member to do is to try to bring together the different factions within this giant company. In Kenya today, if you have a giant company such as Mbo-i-Kamiti with a lot of assets or properties and so on, many groups normally emerge with various interests in those properties. That is why we have so many cases. It is necessary for them to be brought together, so that proper leadership is elected to deal properly with the affairs of the giant company.Otherwise, one will be elected and another group will also elect another set of leaders in another meeting. We will then continue with this problem ad infinitum . So, I would like to appeal to my learned friend to see how we can resolve the leadership dispute within Mbo-i- Kamiti. The Registrar-General had, in fact, directed all the wrangling factions to form a steering committee to prepare the company for elections. However, even that was disputed and we are back to square one.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, while I appreciate the answer that has been given by the Attorney-General, it is worth noting that property is still changing hands. What is the Attorney-General doing now that there are groups which are wrangling and yet property is still changing hands? What is he doing to stop property from changing hands before the issue of directorship is resolved?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I said in my answer, it is really up to the members of this company to go to the court to get injunctions â a proper court order. The
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Attorney-General has accepted that there are wrangles concerning the directors. We have also brought to his attention the fact that the companyâs properties are, in the meantime, being dissipated very rapidly. This means that there are people taking advantage to sell the 530 acres of land which is worth Kshs100 million in Kiambu. It is the Attorney-Generalâs mandate to ensure that there is a list of directors. Is it, therefore, not true that the Office of the Attorney-General is best placed to resolve the wrangles involving the directors? That is precisely what the officers have failed to do.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as far as the wrangling is concerned, the Register-General and the Registrar of Companies have tried their level best to meet the various factions to see how this matter can be resolved. As I stated earlier, they had been advised to form a steering committee of the various factions so that, at least, a general meeting could be held and the issue resolved once and for all. We even advised that in a letter. Do you know what happened? They decided to disobey the advice of the Attorney- General and filed yet another suit in court. That is why I am really pleading to Members of Parliament who might be having some influence in this particular company, if they can work with the Registrar-General so that they can bring together the various factions and organize a proper annual general meeting where the appropriate leadership of the company can be elected. If that is done, we will no longer have these allegations of the assets of the company being wasted.
asked the Attorney-General:
(a) if he could confirm that investigations into the Anglo-Leasing related contracts by the Serious Fraud Office (SFO) in the United Kingdom have been terminated due to lack of co-operation by the Kenya Government; and,
(b) what steps the Government is taking to ensure that the matter is conclusively investigated and money and property stashed abroad is recovered to assist in meeting the growing needs of the country.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) The investigations into 18 Anglo Leasing related contracts by the Serious Fraud Office (SFO) in the UK have not been terminated. They have only been suspended in two contracts where the High Court has issued an injunction order stopping further investigations and prosecution.
(b) The Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC) is doing its best to ensure that the matter is conclusively investigated and money and property stashed abroad are
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you have heard it all from the Attorney- General. As you know, this country is currently struggling a lot to raise money to buy Passats and even to settle IDPs. Here, you have heard the Attorney-General confirm that a lot of money is stashed outside. Nevertheless, which are these two contracts he is talking about? For what reason did the High Court put an injunction stopping further investigation and prosecution of this matter?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with regard to these two contracts, I must say I will be very guarded because of the sub judice rule. We have filed an appeal and it is coming up for hearing on 2nd February, 2010. However, let me just mention something about the two cases, but not go too much into the content. It is the opinion of the Attorney-General that the ruling was completely wrong in law and cannot withstand a proper judgment and appreciation of the issues involved. It went completely wrong. In fact, I am agitated about it because it was wrong. That is why I know that in the Court of Appeal, which consists of three judges, we should be able to succeed. The two cases are the Medema Technology and the Euromarine Industries.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is always a pleasure to see the Attorney-General in this Chamber. He has said that they have only suspended investigations and prosecution into two cases and that it is not true that they have been terminated. Is it not on record, which is also well known to the Attorney-General that it is none other than the British High Commissioner in Kenya who issued a public statement complaining that the Kenyan Government had refused to co-operate and that is why the SFO had terminated the investigations? Arising out of that, is the Attorney-General not misleading the House by saying that the USA Competent Authorities are not co-operating when we know that part of the reason the USA Government has issued travel bans against senior Cabinet Ministers and senior Government officials, including my very good friend, is because the Government has failed to co-operate with international organizations to do a thorough investigation on the Anglo Leasing cases?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, starting with the United States of America (USA), I speak with no fear of contradiction whatsoever by the Ambassador of the USA and the Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI). The fact is that they have not succeeded in convincing the two key suspects. One of them was grossly involved, locally, in most of the Anglo Leasing deals. The other one was involved overseas in the same deals. I am not really blaming the FBI; let it not be misunderstood. The fact of the matter is that they would also be the very first ones to admit that, according to the laws of the USA, they cannot force any person to co-operate with foreign investigative agencies. The FBI wants to help, but their laws prohibit them from doing so. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is not the first fraud case involving Americans. It may be recalled that during the Fourth All African Games, there was an American who
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. You have heard the Attorney-General say that he is not blaming the FBI. Who is he blaming, since he is blaming somebody? He knows that the FBI is the organisation that is investigating the cases, but he says that he does not blame that organisation. Who is he blaming?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Attorney-General of the Republic of Kenya is not in the habit of blaming people. He is just in the habit of explaining matters. I have explained that part of the problem in the USA appears to be the law, which prohibits the competent authorities there from ensuring that their citizens comply with overseas investigations. That appears to be the law that is there. So, I have just explained that fact.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am amazed that the Attorney-General of the Republic of Kenya wants to give us the impression that he is holding brief for the
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am appealing to this House, starting with Dr. Khalwale, to rise up in unison to condemn and urge the Government of the USA to co-operate with our investigations, so that we can unearth the whole saga of Anglo Leasing. Now that I have informed you, please, speak up. I am quite sure that Dr. Khalwale is capable of speaking up.
Mr. Mbau, do you want to speak up?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to speak up. The Attorney-General has been asked to state who he is blaming, so that we can know where the buck stops. He explained himself in detail and eloquently. At this rate, will the Attorney-General of the Republic of Kenya be able to, at one time, squarely place the blame where it belongs and successfully convict the culprits?
Mr. Mbau, the Attorney-General has told you that he is unable to prosecute because the authorities in the USA are not co-operating. So, can you ask a question that is relevant? You do not keep on asking the same question. He has explained himself.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if the authorities in the USA are unable to prosecute---
They are unable to âco-operateâ, and not âprosecuteâ.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if the authorities in the USA are unable to co-operate, how about the cases that derive their origin of wrong-doing from Kenyan soil?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, all these cases arise from Kenya. The agreements relating to the Anglo Leasing scandals were made here. The fact of the matter is that, in order for us to apprehend the key suspects and the initiators of these projects, we need the assistance of foreign investigation agencies. Particularly, if we are aiming at getting our money back from wherever it has gone, we require the co-operation of foreign investigation agencies. That is why I want to put it on record that, at least, we are receiving assistance from the SFO of the UK. The Swiss authorities are also extending the necessary co-operation. Therefore, maybe, using them, we should be able to make out a case on a few of those matters. However, I would love the USA authorities to get those two people, so that we can unravel the whole saga. So, please, speak up.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, last year, we got a very hefty refund. Could the Attorney-General tell this House who refunded that money?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think we should be happy that, at least, we have the money.
How much? Who refunded it?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is a different Question. I can give the hon. Member details if specifically asked to do so. The details are with the Ministry of Finance.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. You heard the Attorney-General clearly state that we should be happy that we got a refund. That means he is aware where that money came from. Could he tell us who refunded this money, now that he says we should be happy that it was refunded?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I can only say what is within my competence; that is, I am happy the money was received. As to who refunded it, that is a different question which can be answered by the Ministry of Finance.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, aware that the Attorney-General is a signatory to most of these contracts; further aware that he is the chief prosecutor, and, possibly, his privy to Kenya being signatory to certain treaties, could he clarify whether there is an extradition treaty between Kenya and the United States of America (USA)?
Is there an extradition treaty between Kenya and the USA for criminals?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not aware of it now, but there exists arrangement for that to happen. I will be able to answer that question fully later. However, I know that we have been cooperating very much on the issue of drug trafficking and it all depends on the consent of the persons involved.
Clearly, extradition treaty would be if there are criminals hiding in the USA, then you would seek them to be extradited here. That is a very basic thing!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want the hon. Members to bear in mind that we use the extradition treaty when we have collected enough evidence to be able to apply to the court in the USA. We cannot use the extradition treaty for suspects. We use it where you have finalized the case and there is enough evidence---
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Hon. Attorney-General, you could be treading on very dangerous grounds there.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am a little bit disappointed by the response given by the Attorney-General. He says he needs evidence before he can go for the suspects. There is already some evidence. The thrust of my question is: If there exists a treaty, what steps he is taking to ensure that we get the suspects extradited to Kenya?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, when we reach a level where we can indict somebody, then that will be put in motion.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Obviously, when the Attorney-General contemplated to ensure that these people come back to this country to face our laws, he must have weighed the various options. Is he telling us, as a competent advisor of the Government, that he does not know that extradition was one of the options? If it was one of the options, how come he has not confirmed that we have signed such a treaty between Kenya and the USA?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the first stage in any criminal proceedings is investigation. We were not requesting that these people come to Kenya. We were requesting that the investigators from the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC) go to the USA and interrogate them there. That is the first stage! You do not jump a stage
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. This matter is very important to this House and this nation. From the responses we are getting from the Attorney-General, one sees very little commitment and determination to bring this matter to an end. What is the commitment in the Office of the Attorney-General to bring this matter to a logical conclusion?
Mr. Attorney-General, you owe this House and the country a better explanation than that! As a matter of fact, there were Kenyans who were extradited from here without us carrying investigations on them or the USA investigators coming here. There is reciprocity; could you give a proper answer to the House?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there are precedents, but there are procedures to be followed. An application comes in and it must disclose sufficient evidence against the person being sort for. It goes to court and the court has to agree and then extradition takes place. That is why I am saying, just because you suspect somebody, you cannot just ask for extradition. In fact, that application would fail if it goes to court. In an extradition case, the court must be satisfied that there is sufficient evidence against that person. It must also be satisfied that it is not an offence of a political nature. Now I was asked what commitment the Attorney-General has; total commitment.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. What the Attorney- General is trying to outline, I believe, are squarely within his docket. When it is just in words and he is not telling us what he has done and how far he has gone, it leaves us bewildered---
So what is your point?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, my point is that the Attorney-General apparently has abdicated his duty. Could he confirm that he has not abdicated his duties?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Attorney-General has not abdicated his duties. He is a prosecutor. The matter is still under investigation which is not the responsibility of the Attorney-General. However, because of my total commitment, I am trying to help the investigators to ensure that they get sufficient evidence.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want to believe the Attorney-General is misleading this House. We are all aware that he has been banned from travelling to the USA. Therefore, he will not even be able to visit the USA to bring the suspects back to Kenya. He will not even be able to write a letter to the USA because they cannot communicate with him. Is he, therefore, misleading this House that he is able to investigate the Anglo Leasing cases?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we are still communicating with the Government of the USA. The hon. Member will be surprised that I am still communicating at very high levels. I would like to educate the hon. Member that a revocation of a visa does not stop communication. Therefore, communication between us
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the Attorney- General in order to refer us even on very simple questions which have simple answers to the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance, like naming those who returned the money to Kenya, when he knows that he is just taking us round in circles so that we can get confused and behave like rats in a gourd?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I answered that question because I was cognizant of the Standing Orders of this House. I was also cognizant on who is supposed to answer those Questions and the Organization of Government. I have said that, that question is different from the one before this House. Since the hon. Member wants to know the answer, I advise him to go to the appropriate Ministry. I think there is no harm in doing that. Is there any harm in doing this?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, maybe, the Attorney-General should shed some light on how much Dr. Merlyn and Mr. Bradley defrauded Kenya.
How much are they suspected to have taken from Kenyans?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I may not know the amount, but what we know is that they were both involved actively in concluding those contracts. These are some of the issues that we want to find out in our letter of request to interrogate them properly.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. At some stage when the Attorney-General was answering these questions, he said that he can provide the answer to the existence or lack of an extradition treaty between Kenya and the USA later. When will he do that? When is that later? Can he come back to this House on a particular day and give that answer that he says he will give later so we can follow up the matter?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, by the way, that is a matter of law, and my learned friend is a lawyer, and the books are here.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I am merely following up on the Attorney-Generalâs undertaking. He has said on the Floor of this House that, that is a question he can answer later on. It is a matter of law but he undertook in this House, just a few minutes ago, to provide evidence of the existence of a treaty.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think the HANSARD will bear me out. I did not undertake to provide that evidence as the hon. Member alleges. I undertook to answer later.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I have also had occasion to interrogate the Attorney-General in the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs. Is he in order to evade this issue? The same thing he did in that Departmental Committee is the same thing he is doing here. He has referred the matter back to Mr. Imanyara who is not the Attorney-General of Kenya and does not draw salaries every month end as the Attorney-General of Kenya? Is the Attorney-General in order to do that?
Mr. Attorney-General, the Chair remembers vividly that you were not very certain whether there is an extradition treaty between Kenya and the USA. You said that you can find that out later on. That seems to be the core of these points of order. You have also put it that there are suspects who are principle in this issue. So, can you give an undertaking on when you will provide that information to this House so that the nation and the House can know whether there is that kind of arrangement between the two countries?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will give the answer. However, Ms. Odhiambo was wrong to ask whether I was in order because I never even stated what made her rise on the point of order.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Attorney-General is still being evasive. Instead of starting with the first question, he has started with the last question and sat down. However, he is willing to tell us whether there is an extradition treaty between Kenya and the USA. The question is: When will he do that?
Mr. Attorney-General, the Chair is conscious of this and the concerns raised by both the House as well as the nation. Therefore, I direct that this Question be put on the Order Paper on Thursday, next week, and you come up with an elaborate and comprehensive answer that literally answers every concern of Kenyans and this House.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not challenging your ruling but the fact of the matter is that the Clerk of the National Assembly and the Speaker are aware that I will not be here next week. Could you defer this Question to the following week?
Nonetheless the Question should be placed on the Order Paper on Thursday the following week!
That is okay, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Hon. Members, today is Supply Day and the Chair is conscious of the fact that a lot of time was taken by a matter that is very serious and Kenyans are passionate about. The Chair had to deliberately give the kind of leeway that is required to try and save the money of Kenyans or find where the money is. Under the
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to demand a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs with regard to the programme of securing a new Constitution in Kenya, which he administers on behalf of the Government, in relation to the proposed time that we will go on recess. It is public knowledge that on Thursday, next week, Parliament should go on recess. Traditionally, we will report back in the month of March, 2010. Being aware of the fact that the country is anxious to get a new Constitution, we want to know how the Minister intends to deal with this matter. Could we have an undertaking from him or from the President - through the Minister - that Parliament will not be prorogued, delay and in the process delay the Constitution making process?
Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, because of the extreme urgency of this matter, I would prefer to make the Statement now. The Statement is as follows:-
I have already tabled, through a Ministerial Statement last week, a calendar of the constitutional process. That calendar envisages this House being seized of the Draft Constitution at the very latest by mid February. I want to give an undertaking that I have already raised this matter with the House Business Committee (HBC). I have alerted them that as they design the calendar for Parliament, they should ensure that proper advice and recommendations are made all round to ensure that the House is sitting at the time it will be seized of the Draft Constitution. I have been given an assurance by the HBC that His Excellency the President will be advised. Even if it is a prorogation, the House will be recalled before that time, failure to which Parliament merely remains in recess and the Fourth Session starts when that time comes. Therefore, it is a firm undertaking that the House will be sitting when it is supposed to be sitting to seize that document.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister knows that the Chair of the HBC is currently the Speaker. Had it been the usual way where the Chair is the Leader of Government Business, then such an assurance being given to the HBC would have been conveying the word of the President, who has the sole prerogative of proroguing Parliament. Who has assured you that the President has said that?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is a very good question. I have not said that
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do appreciate that this Minister does appear to be well-intentioned when he gives the commitment that he does wish us to have a new Constitution. Given that the Standing Orders, as framed now, enable the President to send Communications to the Chair, rather than the Minister dealing with the HBC, could he take the opportunity provided by the Standing Orders and get a Communication from His Excellency the President and deliver it to this House before the end of this week, so that we can be assured that, indeed, we will get a new Constitution?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, indeed, I agree. I will suitably advise His Excellency the President about the remarks made by the hon. Member and the interest that the House has. He will then make a decision and I am sure that he will issue a Communication. But I want to assure hon. Members that from the interest that His Excellency the President has shown in this process, I have no doubt that the proper assurances will come forth.
Mr. Imanyara, you wanted to seek a Ministerial Statement.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a Ministerial Statement from the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance. Let this House know how much money was refunded by one of the suspects in the Anglo Leasing Scandal, the amount involved, from what bank, when it was received in Kenya, what account that money went to and the name of the suspect.
This is for the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance. But in the light of the fact that he is not here and I cannot see his Assistant Minister, any Minister can make an undertaking on his behalf.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will communicate that to the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance. Perhaps, you can allow the Statement to be issued on Wednesday, next week.
It is so directed that the Minister issues this Statement on Wednesday, next week.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Lands in respect of a Question which I asked in this House on 15th September, 2009, concerning the illegal acquisition of plot No.LR/Nairobi Block 93/1418 which is an environmental carbon sink and buffer zone against noise between Plainsview Estate and the busy Mombasa Highway. In answering the Question, the Minister indicated that investigations had been initiated to ascertain the circumstances under which the plot, which is a public utility, was allocated to a private developer. To quote the Minister, he said:
âIn the meantime, the Ministry has placed---
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. There are very loud consultations going on. We cannot even follow the proceedings.
Order, hon. Members! Order, hon. Otieno and your colleagues in the Front Bench! Hon. Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government, Mr. Mudavadi, can we have some silence? Can you consult in very low tones? There are Back Benchers who are seeking Ministerial Statements. It could even be from your own Ministry. You are all consulting in very high tones. Let us have a bit of decorum in the House! Proceed, Dr. Khalwale!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was quoting the Minister who said:- âIn the meantime, the Ministry has placed a restriction on the title deed to forestall any transaction on the land until the matter is fully investigated and determined.â
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, despite the answer given to this House by the Minister and the undertaking he made, I am very sorry to report to this House that the private developer has gone ahead and started constructing a petrol station on that land. Could the Minister, therefore, clarify whether it is him and not the private developer who is taking this House for a ride? Secondly, could he report to this House the current status of the investigations that he ordered into this matter? Could the Minister also order the law enforcement officers to move in against that rogue developer? Finally, I demand that the Minister immediately visits the site and stops the construction work for, if nothing else, to protect the pupils of Highway Educational Complex Primary School, which is situated right next to the site.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I had requested for a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Agriculture over a week ago with regard to payment for maize delivered by farmers who have not been paid up to date. The Statement has not been issued.
We expect one Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs. But before that, there was a Ministerial Statement sought from the Minister for Lands by hon. Dr. Khalwale.
Hon. Minister, could you give an undertaking on behalf of the Minister for Lands?
I do, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
When shall we have the Ministerial Statement?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it will be delivered on Wednesday, next week.
Fair enough! Yes, hon. Ethuro!
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want to remind you that I actually asked for a Ministerial Statement on the outbreak of cholera, particularly for Turkana and Pokot, last Thursday and the Chair directed that it should be given on Tuesday afternoon. That did not happen and the Minister is here today.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, indeed, it is true that the advertisement says the ânewly created districtsâ. When you look at the advert, you will see that we have actually mentioned those newly created districts. So, in other words, all clerical officers within the newly created districts will be interviewed and absorbed within those districts. We have also extended the period by two more weeks. I think we have gone by the circular which was issued by the Public Service Commission (PSC).
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would like to have a clarification through the Chair whether the Assistant Minister is responding to my statement now. If he has responded to the statement now, then I would like to seek further clarifications from him.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was responding to the allegation that we are nationally absorbing the clerical officers. I was giving the impression that the allegation by hon. Ethuro is wrong.
What is your point of order, hon. Ethuro?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the hon. Assistant Minister in order to claim that I am making an allegation when I made specific reference to an advert which he has acknowledged and he goes further to say, âhe is also creating an impression?â Mr. Assistant Minister, this is not the House for creating impression. This is a House where we transact serious business of national importance!
Did you seek a Ministerial Statement?
I did, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Indeed, under the circumstances, you do not turn this into a debate. When the hon. Member seeks a Ministerial Statement, the sentiments that you are expressing now form part of the body of the clarifications.
Order, hon. Assistant Minister! Give an undertaking on the day you will give a Ministerial Statement on the matter that essentially was raised by Mr. Ekwee Ethuro.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thought I have responded to what he was seeking and he is very satisfied.
Mr. Ethuro, are you satisfied with the response?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister would like me to be satisfied, but I am not satisfied.
So, you are seeking a full Ministerial Statement?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would not mind seeking clarifications on the Statement. I think he has made a Statement and we need to interrogate it.
You just sought a Ministerial now?
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have just sought a Ministerial Statement now and the Assistant Minister has attempted to answer it now---
Order! Order, Mr. Ekwee Ethuro! You seek a Ministerial Statement, you get an undertaking from the Minister, and he comes and delivers the Ministerial Statement another time! For today, there are Ministerial Statements that were undertaken weeks back and they are the ones which are going to take precedence over yours. Can you give an undertaking when you are going to bring the Ministerial Statement?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will give the Ministerial Statement on Wednesday morning.
It is so directed!
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Yesterday, I sought a Ministerial Statement from the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security on the insecurity situation in Buuri. They promised to issue it on Wednesday afternoon. Since the Assistant Minister is here, he can issue that Ministerial Statement.
We have a Committee of the whole House today. We are not going to take any more Ministerial Statements except the ones from the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs, because of the urgency of the matters that are essentially going to be addressed here.
TERMINATION OF NEW KCC MANAGING DIRECTORâS CONTRACT
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Yesterday, the Chair made a ruling that a Ministerial Statement regarding the sacking or removal from office of the New Kenya Co-operative Creameries (KCC) Managing Director be issued today---
Indeed, the Chair is concisious of that issue and it has communicated to the Minister that he issues a Ministerial Statement next week on Tuesday.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister is extremely anxious to issue that Statement and he is in the House!
Order! Yes, indeed, you have one Ministerial Statement. When can you issue the Statement? Can you do that on Tuesday?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would seek the indulgence of the Chair to issue some of the Ministerial Statement which I have. If there is no time, then I would request that I issue all those Ministerial Statements which have been sought by Wednesday morning.
Fair enough! It is so directed. Your point of order is well taken care of. This is now regarding the Ministry of Agriculture.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. You did not give any direction regarding my request for a Ministerial Statement and I have seen the Minister exiting the House. It is a matter of great urgency because the farmers have not been paid.
Order! The Ministers take the liberty to approach the Chair to find out whether actually there will be time for them to issue a Ministerial Statement and the Chair has been consistent on this. We can only do it next week because today, we have a Committee of the whole House. Yes, can you seek your Ministerial Statement?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wanted you to direct the Minister for Public Health and Sanitation, who is present, to issue a Ministerial Statement on the situation of cholera in the country.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am aware of the problem and I will issue a Ministerial Statement on cholera on Tuesday afternoon.
Order, hon. Members! Earlier on, I had made a Communication from the Chair. The Communication was based on the information for a request that was placed to the Chair or the Speaker by the Parliamentary Caucus for Reforms, in which I indicated that, actually, that retreat was going to take place on 4th and 5th December, 2009. I have since been made aware that because of other functions that are taking place in Mombasa and other places in the country, these dates of 4th and 5th December, 2009, might not be the best dates to be able to attract the biggest number possible of hon. Members to discuss and deliberate on the Harmonized Draft Constitution of Kenya so that we get a consensus at the Parliamentary level as much as possible. Under the circumstances now, hon. Members will be advised accordingly on the dates of the retreat. You will all get it. We cannot do it on Friday and Saturday next week because Saturday next week is Jamhuri Day, it is our Independence Day, 12th December, 2009. So, you will get the communication on the appropriate dates. Next Order!
Hon. Members, we are in the Committee of the whole House. If you look at your Order Paper, you will see that, under Order No.8, we have the Arbitration (Amendment) Bill and the National Youth Council Bill. We will consider the first one only, the Arbitration Bill, Bill No.2.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:-
THAT, Clause 5 of the Bill be amended in paragraph (a) by deleting the words âtakes the appropriate procedural step to acknowledge the legal proceedings against that partyâ and substituting therefor the words âor otherwise acknowledges the claim against which the stay of proceedings is soughtâ.
Order, Mr. Attorney-General! You will need to justify why you are bringing that amendment!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I am bringing this amendment basically to have a better phraseology. It clarifies the issue.
That is fine.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 8 of the Bill be amended in the proposed Subsection (3)(c) by deleting the words âreasonable timeâ and substituting therefor, the words âfourteen daysâ.
The reason for this amendment is to stop arguments as to what is the âreasonable timeâ by putting a specific time of 14 days.
Mr. Wako): Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:-
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move that the Committee do report to the House its consideration of The Arbitration (Amendment) Bill and its approval thereof with amendments.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to Report that a Committee of whole House has considered The Arbitration (Amendment) Bill and approved the same with amendments.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.
(Prof. Sambili) seconded.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that The Arbitration (Amendment) Bill be now read the Third Time.
(Ms. Mathenge) seconded.
Who was on the Floor? Is Mr. Baiya in the House? He is not here. He still had 16 minutes. Is there anyone who would like to contribute to this Motion?
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to make my contribution on the National Land Policy. First and foremost, I want to take this opportunity to thank the Minister, the Ministry and all those who were involved in the preparation of the National Land Policy. This Policy has taken too long. The process started in 2004 and it is in 2009 that this Policy is being brought to this House. I also note that the process that was involved in the formulation of this Policy was elaborate and all inclusive. I participated in this process. I confirm that the process was all-inclusive and many Kenyans participated in it. Therefore, those who have been raising issues that this process has not been all-inclusive are misplaced. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to say that we now have a policy in our history that provides an overall framework and defines the key measures required to address critical issues regarding land in this country. The critical issues that this Policy addresses include land administration, which has been a major issue in this country as regards to land management. The other major issue is land use policy. This Policy gives us a window for us to come up with a land use policy which is crucial for this country because without a land use policy, we cannot regulate our land use. It is because of lack of land use policy, for many years, that this country has had many problems regarding land use and environmental management. Therefore, this Policy will enable us come up with a land use policy which will define how we use our land. The other issue that this Policy addresses and which is very important is the restitution of historical injustices. We have had very many historical injustices as regards land and this Policy will address it. This is an issue that many Kenyans have raised but nothing has been done. I believe that we will have a framework that will address the historical injustices regarding land acquisition and land administration within this Policy.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, environmental degradation is an issue that this country is suffering from. It is an issue of concern to every Kenyan. This Policy has taken the liberty to address this issue which is very important. Therefore, I congratulate those involved for including the issue of environmental conservation, which is so important, if we have to use our land sustainably for the present and future generation. Most of our legal frameworks on land are outdated. This Policy is proposing that we review and amend our legal frameworks on land. So, this will create an opportunity
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want to thank and congratulate the Minister and his team for bringing this National Land Policy (NLP).
Indeed, it is a shame that we have only been able to come up with the NLP after over 40 years of Independence. Yet, every five or six years, we have a conflict. When we ask why we have conflict, we are told we have various conflicts between communities and families because of land issues. So, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is a policy that is very welcome and I want to recommend that all hon. Members of this House make it their Bible and make our chiefs have it as a Bible because this is the only way we shall be able to address the perennial conflicts that we have within our society. Indeed, we are told that the landmass of Kenya is 582,642 square kilometers. We know land is not elastic; land does not grow, yet the population of Kenya continues to grow. We have estimates showing that the focus of the population census that was done is close to 40 million people. It is obvious that each Kenyan cannot own a piece of land in this Republic of ours. We, therefore, need to make sure that the 20 per cent that we are told is between medium and high density agricultural and urban is utilized and, indeed, that this rate is also increased further. We have seen countries which have a less landmass and we often go to borrow and beg food from them. I think we should borrow a leaf from them and make optimum use of the land that is available to us. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I love this National Land Policy because, for the first time, it has also taken note of the vulnerable groups. It has taken note that a lot of our orphans â who today are totaling to over 3.5 million â should not be disinherited and it is going to take care of that. So, this is very commendable. It is also recommending that the Matrimonial Properties Act â which has sent a lot of people shivering â should be
Thank you very much, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would also like to support this Motion that is before us. Let me, first of all, say that I am happy to be in the ten Parliament that is, probably, going to pass the first land policy since Independence of this country. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, land issues have been very emotive in this country and a lot of problems that we have witnessed â they were most pronounced from 1992 - are, of course, linked to elections. But if you look at the problems critically, you realize that land has really played a big role in the problems that we have gone through. It, therefore, means that, as a country, we need to have some land policies that have been lacking for a long time. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I believe this Policy is going to address some of the historical issues that we have been talking about. A lot of times, we have complained of title deeds which are issued illegally. This time round, I believe the Minister, who is a reformist, is going to make sure that we bring some sanity in the issue of title deeds. Yes, the sanctity of title deeds needs to be respected but this is only if they are given out legally. We have heard a number of cases in this country where people acquire land illegally and then later on, come flashing the title deed and telling everybody who cares to listen or hear that there is sanctity of title deeds. I believe that, this time round, we are going to correct some of these anomalies. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also wanted to talk about the attachment that people have on land in this country, which is really amazing. It is high time, with the current growth in population, that we de-emphasize on land and concentrate on space. Let us start thinking more on how we can claim space rather than land. Because you realize that some people just take pride in owning land. Someone owns thousands of acres land and he does nothing with it! I will not mention names, but there are some pieces of land where, if you drive from here going to western Kenya, you are told that this land belongs to so-and-so. Ever since I started passing there when I started coming to Nairobi, I have not see any economic activity taking place. This time round, even if the National Land Policy is not going to address some of these issues, I believe the new Constitution that, probably, will be passed will address the issue so that we do not have speculators. It is not right for the majority of landowners in this country to be speculators rather than users of the same resource. I think it is high time that land speculation is made expensive so that people will own land that they want to put into some productive use. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to also talk about this issue of historical injustice, which I believe is properly addressed in the current National Land
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this chance to add my voice to the National Land Policy. I want, first and foremost, to congratulate the Minister for having spared all the time with members of his staff and the Kenya Land Alliance to put together this very historic document that, us, as hon. Members and Kenyans in general plus our ancestors will live to remember.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to restrict myself to only three issues because most of the issues have been dealt with. However, allow me to give the Minister special credit for the manner he has moved this Motion. When he was moving the Motion, I remembered two very critical phrases. These are: âthe rightsâ and âour peopleâ. He kept on repeating âour peopleâ every time as he moved the Motion. That is a very unique sentiment from a leader, especially one of this generation. Over the years, leadership in this country never appreciated the wholesome representation and diversity in Kenya. Although it was spoken of, it was never practised. I want to recognise the sentiments of the Minister. I want to urge the hon. Members, especially all leaders in this country, from now on to copy the Minister whenever they speak. They should speak for the interests of our people and not âthe peopleâ because the latter are those who matter.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also want to congratulate the Minister for the sense in which he has articulated the principle of popular sovereignty and democracy by recognising all types, categories and status of people including women, children, disabled, vulnerable communities and groups. I also want to congratulate him especially for recognising the various ways in which Kenyans contribute to the economy of this country. That is a very unique character of somebody who has taken time to understand what Kenya is composed of.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, in Article 171.3.6, that is Land Issues Requiring Special Intervention, I recognise that the Minister looked into historical injustices. He recognised the value of pastoralism in Kenyan economy â one thing that has never been articulated properly in our legal system. He looked at the coastal region as an area of concern. He looked at the land rights of the minority and marginalised groups, women, children and informal settlement issues.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity. Right from the outset, I would like to support the Motion and congratulate the Minister for Lands for such a good policy. One of the things that has been said is that this land policy is about undertaking a position on the far left of the far right. For me, it is about taking into consideration the interest of the poor and marginalized Kenyans. That is the reason I support this Motion. If taking into account the interest of poor and marginalized Kenyans is a leftist approach, I am very happy to be leftist. If it is rightist, I am equally happy. This is because, at the end
Please, say it again!
If you cannot work, take a walk!
I am sure that it is not the Minister who needs to take a walk, because he is working well. He is working well because the road from Homa Bay to Suba is about to come. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the other issue I want to laud this policy document for is on resolution of genuine historical and current land injustices. I have, in the past, alluded to the fact that because of these injustices, we have perennial tribal clashes. Unless we deal with historical injustices, we can never deal with the problems affecting this country. I was speaking informally to my friends. I was saying that, to me, this Policy is about the âlandedâ against the âlandlessâ. I stand with the âlandlessâ.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am happy today, as a professional in land matters, to support the introduction of the first National Land Policy in Kenya. Everybody has been waiting for this document for so long. It took four years for it to mature. There are very good points about it. There are some points which need to be looked at with a view to streamlining them. There could be a few points that the Minister may need to look at with another eye. The problems we have had since Independence relate to very many contradictory land laws. You get land registered in so many different ways. We now have a chance to have only one land law. That is a point for which we need to congratulate the people who formulated this Policy. With a few amendments, this Policy will form the basis for reference when we create other laws to administer land issues, and upcoming technologies such as geo-information. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the change outlined on page 63 of this document is one of the most intriguing issues. I cannot wait to see a situation where we shall be in a position to transact land online. The Minister should know that in Siakago, we have even started digitizing all the spatial data in readiness for the activation of this policy. When this happens, I hope we are going to make a move in the geodetic world having established the National GNSS reference stations around the country. That way, we shall be sure that the issue of double allocations and boundary disputes will be a thing of the past. I would now like to comment on some issues which need to be looked into in this document. I think there is need to remove generalities. By generalities, I mean the following:-
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if we say in a document that land shall only be given to people who want to develop; it is obvious that everybody who wants land will say: âI want to develop itâ. Therefore, it does not inform anything to say that any applicant does not wish to develop the land. Everybody will say: âI want to develop the land!â Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, at the same time, you will find several sections which are addressing equity as opposed to sanctity. If you want to distribute land, you must compromise on the sanctity. I submit that it would not be good for this country to compromise on the sanctity of land ownership. That is because the moment you have a title deed--- I remember in Section 62 (b), if you are going back to adjudicate through a land tribunal, who owned what before the land was registered, we shall be going back to the time when the wazungus came here. That means we will actually be undoing all the historical land records that we have today. I do not think that is practical. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, when we say in Section 66(d)(iv) that we are going to reverse all the title deeds for Government land in the Coast Province, you can see the impact of that. It is next to impossible. If you do that, you will be brewing trouble. When people own land, you can have trouble in the family, clan, tribe or nation when you try to reverse land ownership. I would like to submit that some of these clauses need to be relooked into. If we are thinking of redistribution and reversing the titles that have
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Given that everybody seems to be repeating the same things on the Motion and all are in general agreement, would I be in order to ask the Chair to call upon the Mover to reply.
Prof. Anyangâ-Nyongâo, please, proceed!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for rescuing me. I rise to support this Sessional Paper No.3 of 2009 on the National Land Policy. This Paper could not have come at a better moment. It has come at a time when this nation is reviewing its Constitution. It is moving from the first to the second Republic.
The first Republic was the post-colonial Republic that was handed over to us by the colonialists. We now want to have a homegrown Constitution which will deal with our indigenous problems and set a lasting framework for social, political and economic relations in this country. In that regard, land becomes very important. Land, as a factor of production; land as a means of production; land as an important force in a market economy and transiting from pre-capitalist economy to a capitalist economy. In this regard, you will realise that one of the mischiefs that this Policy is trying to deal with is to remove the fetishism in land. That in this period of transition from pre-capitalism to capitalism, we tend to have a lot of fetishism in land; in that we tend to hold land as a security without using it for productive purposes. So, from peasants to commercial speculators, many people hold land. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if you go to the rural areas and more so in my constituency, you will find large parcels of land lying idle mainly because people are speculating with that land. One of the things that this Policy will introduce is a land tax which will force land to enter into the market place as a commodity and make it possible to be used for productive purposes. There is a belief in this country that the more land you have the richer you are. I have seen my friends, including myself, hoarding land from the age of 30 to 65 and still thinking that they have valuable property when all this time they have not used it, and only a few years to their grave they are still happy that they have property. Land is only useful in so far as it can lead to production, and in so far as it can have value for you. The potential value land has in the market place is always potential. It can crush at any time. For example, when there were clashes in this country in the post-election period, a lot of land lost value because their owners found that they could not immediately sell it to make use of it. All over a sudden, they realised that it is useless to have this fetish about land. Secondly, there is a lot of speculation in land as collateral in having commercial transactions. This speculation has led to a lot of distortions in our economy. Housing prices in the urban areas are very high because few people hoard land, speculate, put it as security in banks and borrow money against it. In so far as this land is kept as security, when people get money from banks, one only hopes that the money that is received from the bank is used productively. Quite often, this money is not used productively and it leads to a lot of distortion in the economy, particularly in the 1990s when we had the Goldenberg problem. The issue was also complicated by a lot of land which banks were holding in terms of collateral but which quite often had passed two or three hands and one could not determine who was the rightful owner. This is one of the mischiefs that the
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just want to congratulate the Minister for Lands, who has worked with his team, on this very difficult and touching subject for all Kenyans. I just want to point out a few things about community land which he has captured, but not in totality. Whereas everybody is fighting for public land to be reclaimed back from people who acquired it illegally, we are fighting also for the community land. That is because most of the community land, otherwise known as the trust land, has been given out to people who did not deserve to be given that land. Those particular chunks of land, some of which were protected in our current Constitution, were overlooked. The laws were flouted and, in the process, other people - and not the communities involved - were actually given that land.
Although we were given this land, we were finally told; âOh; this is private land, you cannot touch it.â How can it be private land when the law has not been followed? How can it be private land when the land was not set aside and even the councils and the communities were never involved? Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, people have suffered and I am very happy that the Minister for Lands has specifically pointed out the serious issues in the Coast Province. This is because the Coast Province has got issues which are so different from the rest of this country. Everybody thinks that the Coast Province is where they can learn how to play football as far as land is concerned. Everybody goes down to the Coast Province and that is the only place where other communities cannot really fight when it comes to land grabbing. Our land has been grabbed with impunity. We have land which was grabbed by individuals, people who knew the law very well and decided to flout it. We would like to see that land reverting back to the communities. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Kenya Wildlife Services which used to be known as the National Parks then, also grabbed land from the communities. We have trust land which has been annexed to the parks. We want to see the Minister for Lands repossessing that land and giving it back to the communities. The people of Taita-Taveta who house the biggest national park in this country, even after they had taken away all our land to be a national park, they still took our trust land. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister for Lands has got a lot of work to do; he has a very big war ahead because nobody would want to hear these corrections being done. Unscrupulous individuals have decided to enrich themselves using our community land. I want to support the Minister and we hope that Kenyans are going to have a better---
On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Hon. Minister, do you want to be informed?
No, thank you! My colleague, who comes from Nairobi, has not really seen a lot of land problems in Nairobi. They have to live in the Coast Province to understand some of these things. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we want the Minister to be empowered by this House to be able to carry out what he intends to do plus more and uphold whatever is in the current Constitution which protects community land. We want the Minister for
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I rise to support the Motion before the House. I have actually looked through the policy document and it is very well-thought out. But when the Minister comes to formulate the legislation that will follow, it is very important that he institutes checks and balances. I do not think that we should put the National Land Commission in the Constitution. But I think that the policy in the Constitution on how land should be dealt with is what we should aim at and, that the power to allocate land should be in the National Land Commission but the Executive too should have a say and Parliament should also have a say on certain issues. So, you have checks and balances by involving more than one institution. It is possible to have a rogue land commission which can do the very same things we are running away from. Let us believe not in the persons that we will put there, but also in the institutions and in the checks and balance. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this Policy is long overdue, I do not want to repeat what the rest have said, but I wanted to go on record as having supported this policy document. It is time we revolutionalised our land policy and land laws. With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Order, Minister and Members! Since there is no more interest by hon. Members to contribute to this Motion, I will call upon the Mover to reply.
Thank you very much, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. First, I want to congratulate all the hon. Members who have spoken on this Motion. I can assure you that my team from the Ministry of Lands is here and taking notes to ensure that the contributions that have been made are going to be used, particularly when we prepare legislation. As I said at the beginning, the land policy is not cast in stone and is not legislation. It is gives a broad view and vision for the way forward.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, since I did not do it in the beginning, I also want to thank the people who have worked with me in the Ministry; they are here and include the Permanent Secretary and the various heads of departments. I thank them for work well done. Thanks also go to all those stakeholders who have taken part in this process. Hon. Otichilo has been with this for a long time. He has contributed immensely to this document that you see today. I also want to thank the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Lands and Natural Resources, hon. Mutava Musyimi, with whom we have had discussions on this matter. I think this is not the end of the road. You will help us when we come to the more difficult task of enacting enabling legislation. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, however, I think other than legislation on the Constitution questions which we must address, as the Minister for Lands, there are certain things on which I am prepared to bite the bullet for. With the passing of this
Is the Minister of State for Planning, National Development and Vision 2030 here? He seems not to be here.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister has been around quite a lot from yesterday, but I think he gave up and went away
Order, Minister! That is no excuse. He should always be aware that his Motion is next and should stay as long as possible.
THAT, this House adopts the Kenya Economic Report 2009 laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday 24th November, 2009.
Leader of delegation!
Order! In view of the fact that even hon. Shabesh might not be prepared, and considering that there are, maybe, a few seconds to go, I think we need to terminate here. THAT, this House adopts the Report of the First Session of the Second Legislature of the Pan African Parliament held from 26th October to 5th November, 2009 in Midrand South Africa laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday, 18th November, 2009