Order, Mrs. Shebesh! Only when the Front Bench is full is he not allowed to sit there.
Hon. Members, I wish to introduce to you and welcome a delegation from the Parliament of Namibia. They are seated at the Speaker’s Row. They are:- The Hon. Hendrik Ngubab, MP – Chair, Committee on Public Accounts and Economy The Hon. Jeremina Shitalani, MP - Member of the Committee The Hon. Kazengere Jeundu, MP - Member of the Committee The Hon. Moses Koma, MP - Member of the Committee Ms. Dorcia Frentsmen - Committee Clerk They are members of the Committee on Public Accounts and Economy who are on a study tour to the Kenya National Assembly. On behalf of the House and on my own behalf, I wish the delegation a fruitful and happy stay in Kenya. Thank you!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:- THAT
Hon. Members, in line with the commitment of the House to dispose of as many Bills as possible, we will not have a second round on Questions. So, if you miss out on the first round, that Question will be dropped.
Question by Mr. Bahari!
Mr. Bahari is not here? The Question is dropped!
asked the Minister for Environment and Mineral Resources:- (a) whether he is aware that more than 250 youth from Kuresoi and Molo districts, hired to plant seedlings in Mau Forest in March 2010 under the Kazi Kwa Vijana Programme have not been paid their weekly dues since March 2011; (b) whether he could explain the terms of engagement for the youth and what led to their dismissal after planting 10,000 seedlings jointly with the members of the armed forces; and, (c) what measures he will take to ensure the anomaly is corrected and the youth are paid their dues.
Where is the Minister for Environment and Mineral Resources? He is not here! Fair enough. The Question is deferred to another day.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. You have already punished the two absent Members of Parliament and you have, from that Chair, said many times that failure to ask Questions and failure to answer Questions constitutes misconduct. Are we going to defer this Question without a finding that the Minister is disorderly?
Indeed, the Chair would seek the same but, we would want to give it, at least, one more day so that the Chair is satisfied that the Minister did not have a serious problem that was unavoidable on the way. Where is the Leader of Government Business?
Mr. Vice-President, can you tell us why the Minister is not here?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I take the comments you have issued very seriously and if Mr. Michuki could be given the next available opportunity, I will definitely communicate with him. However, I notice that from the records, he was prepared to answer this Question. It must be that he is trying to get here.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I thought the Leader of Government Business could have done well by giving us an explanation as to the whereabouts of the Minister and not just seek an extension. When we are dropping Questions by hon. Members, it is imperative that an explanation is rendered on the whereabouts of the Minister.
Fair enough! The Chair directs that this Question be listed on the Order Paper tomorrow morning. However, the Chair must be satisfied that the Minister had very good reasons as to why he is not here. Consequently, if that is not good enough, the Chair will seek the right sanction.
asked the Minister of State for Public Service:- (a) what achievements have been made since the introduction of performance contracting in public service in the year 2005/2006; and, (b) what mechanisms are being put in place to ensure improvement in service delivery in the Public Service.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) I have supplied the Questioner with a detailed answer under the following headings:- 1. Coordinated Planning 2. Improved Benefits and Performance 3. Improved Economic Growth 4. Enhanced Government Financial Efficiency 5. Improved Service Delivery 6. Enhanced Accountability 7. Enhanced Public/Private Sector Partnership 8. Introduction of Rewards and Sanctions in Public Service 9. UN/Public Service Award, 2007 and All Africa Public Service Innovation Awards in 2010. 10. Recognition as a Pacesetter in Africa.
(b) I have similarly supplied detailed answers under seven different headings. They are:-
1. Public/Private Partnerships
2. Establishment of Public Complaints Standing Committee
3. Automation of Services
4. ISO Certificates.
5. Cascading Performance Contracting
6. Marketing of Kenya Public Service Week
7. Training of Public Servants
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I guess the headings are sufficient to give an indication to the answer as to the achievements and the plans as requested by the hon. Member.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I appreciate the comprehensive answer the Minister has given. However, I would like him to tell this House and Kenyans the concrete measures that the Government has put in place to address the specifics; that is wastage, corruption, absorption capacity and procurement procedures which hinder the implementation of projects or Government programmes. What tangible measures has the Minister put in place to address the issues that I have enumerated?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is not something that can be asked in a general manner like this. It would be better if the hon. Member was specific on the projects that are not being implemented or on procurements that reflect any deficiency. It would be better to be specific. However, to ask a general question when there is a whole Procurement Act in place and the Questioner is aware of that---
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Minister has a constituency. In fact, we know very well that there is a problem of absorption even in his constituency. So, he cannot tell me to be specific and yet, this is a well known fact. Is he in order?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, honestly, absorption depends both on Ministries and every other area. If there are weaknesses in service delivery in any area, he has to be specific and ask that question. However, if he generalizes absorption in the Government, I will spend six hours lecturing the House and that does not appear to be the correct approach on the matter.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, while commending the Minister for the good answer that he has given, could he in addition, inform the House the punitive action the Ministry has taken against non-compliant Government departments on performance contracting in the service?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the policy has sanctions and every Accounting Officer is mandated to take necessary measures to ensure compliance, and also performance within the objectives of each Ministry.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I note that under heading No.6 on Enhanced Accountability, the Minister says that Chief Executive Officers are held accountable for results achieved by their institutions and they in turn hold those below them accountable. Could the Minister tell us how many Accounting Officers have been brought to court for the many cases of corruption and mismanagement that have been unearthed since this process became operational? Has any Accounting Officer been held accountable by being prosecuted for mismanagement and embezzlement of funds that we have witnessed in a number of public corporations and parastatals?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think all Members are aware that corruption is administered by a different independent commission and any failure to effect any measures under that Act should be answered by the right agency.
Last question on the same, Mr. Chanzu!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister has refused to address the issue that I raised. What has the Government done to address the issue of the procurement procedures that delay the implementation of projects so that there is harmony?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is true that when the Procurement Act was enacted, the anticipation was that it would stop corruption, but it has ended up delaying implementation of a number of projects. That may be a matter for hon. Members to review the Act. I think studies are being done on how best to improve the Act so that it may enhance efficiency in Public Service procurement.
asked the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government:- (a) why construction work on Matuu market has not started; and, (b) when the work will start and be completed.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) The proposed development of Matuu Market was awarded to M/S Rocui Contractors of P.O. Box 18380, Nairobi, on 5th November, 2010, at a tender sum of Kshs23,435,379.10.
(b) The order to commence works was issued on 28th March and commencement of work was due on 5th April. The function did not take place because the council delayed in issuance of necessary notice to traders operating in the market and was yet to demolish and remove the temporary kiosks at the site. At a full council meeting held on 28th March, 2011, the Town Council of Matuu resolved to relocate traders, have a register of all kiosk owners and traders operating in the market, demolish and remove all kiosks and hand over the site. On 5th April, 2011, the council was requested to relocate the traders and demolish the temporary kiosks . This was granted and the demolition work was done on Friday, 22nd April, 2011. Work at the site commenced on 4th May, 2011 and the development will take 18 months (72 weeks). The market will be completed on or before 14th October, 2012.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, indeed, the contractor came to site only last week. Why would it take 18 months to construct a market, while a normal building takes 18 months? That is a market basically with a slab and roof with no fittings, walls or finishes.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as much as I do not have the technical know-how as to how the contract was awarded for 18 months, this is a Kshs23 million contract which basically means that they will be spending more than Kshs1 million per month and it is possible for such a contract to be of that size and nature.
Last question, Mr. C. Kilonzo!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the first time the contractor moved to the site at Matuu Market, he was there for not more than one week. I assume that the Assistant Minister went to look for the contractor when this Question was filed. Could he give an undertaking that the works will continue until the construction is completed as opposed to the contractor being on and off the site?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, our intention is for the work to continue to its fullest. The contractor has, obviously, signed the performance bond and if he fails to perform we will enforce that bond.
asked the Minister for Information and Communications:- (a) whether he could provide a breakdown of Government expenditure on advertisements in each media house per year and cumulatively from 2005 to-date; (b) whether he could provide the list of top 20 Ministries in spending in each of the media entities in descending order; and, (c) whether he could table all the contracts that were used in procuring those advertisements and/or promotions.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. A few minutes ago, I received a very lengthy data sheet. Conspicuously missing in the same data sheet is a list of the contracts which I had asked for in part “c” of the Question. Would I be in order to request that this Question comes back after a week, so that I can study this document, having been supplied with the list of contracts in question by tomorrow?
Hon. Assistant Minister, will you be in a position to answer the Question one week from today?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have no problem with the Question coming back tomorrow. However, I was ready to respond to it today.
The hon. John Mututho wants it to be answered another day. I direct that the Question appears on the Order Paper on Tuesday next week. Next Question!
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The second part of the Question was about the contracts under part “c”. Could you also make an order that we---
Because the Question has not been prosecuted, the Chair has no way of knowing. That is information within your knowledge. However, could you share it with the Assistant Minister so that he is ready when he comes on Tuesday next week?
asked the Minister for Fisheries Development
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) I am aware of the EU funded project and not the World Bank project. (i) Delays in procurement and delivery of the cold storage equipment and non- clearance of duty has caused the temporary stalling of the projects. However, the Ministry applied for exemption of taxes on the equipment. (ii) The clearance letter was received from the Ministry of Finance and the installation of the ice making machines at Nyandiwa and Sori have been completed. (b) The EU funded project allowed for only 10 per cent variations per site. The original designs of the jetty were defective and require variations to reduce the heights and include a ramp to allow for a small fishing craft to access the facility. Variations of the six sites were done in December, 2012 and approved by the donor. (c) The project was designed such that the contractor is only paid for the work he has undertaken. The contractor moved to the Ogal Beach and completed the installation of the cold room and is expected to complete Mukuloba by 2nd September, 2011. He will, thereafter, move to Wich Lum and Luanda Kotieno.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, from the answer by the Assistant Minister, it would appear that the only reason why the project was delayed is because of late delivery of cold storage equipment and obtaining clearance from the Ministry of Finance. That cannot be true because the Ministry engaged Gama Delta East Africa Ltd. Consultants in July 2010 to look at this matter. Arising from that, I wish to table a document issued by the Chairman of Beach Management Unit, Ogal Beach in Kisumu. The relevant issues, as set out by the Chairman in writing to the Deputy Director of Fisheries Development are as follows: “From our own observations, the underlisted issues observed by our committee need to be addressed urgently, so that the landing site at Ogal can be opened to the fishing folk. (i) Design and fittings of cold rooms and ice plant are below standards. They are too small to accommodate fish deliveries of approximately five tonnes per day. (ii) Electrical planning fittings and designs are below international standards for wet areas and cold rooms. (iii) There is insufficient space for bio-digester, hence proper separation chamber and soak pit cannot be constructed. In conclusion, having consulted with BMUs at Sori, Nyandiwa, Lwand K’Otieno, Wich Lum and Mulukoba, they have the same concerns as ours, and we are informed that the cold room machines are detained at the Mombasa Port awaiting tax waiver. The contractor is asking for variations which cannot be given by the World Bank. Unless ugent action is taken by the Ministry, this Kshs3 billion projects will go to waste and Kenyans will shoulder the repayment with nothing to show for it.” In view of these very serious concerns, what has the Ministry done to ensure that the standards of equipment and installations are up to international standards?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the concerns raised by the hon. Member have already been addressed by the Ministry. As we speak, there is no project that has stalled. All these issues have been addressed. Most of those projects are either complete or ongoing. So, the Member needs not worry about those issues.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there were infrastructural developments that were supposed to take place alongside all the beaches in Kenya, Tanzania and Uganda. That was five years ago. The ones in Uganda and Tanzania were carried out. What happened to the infrastructural development along the beaches in Kenyan which have not been done so far?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that project is being coordinated from Jinja by the Lake Victoria Fisheries Organization. This is a project which is funded by the EU and it is pursuant to a directive or a resolution of EU. Therefore, each country was supposed to develop six landing sites to international standards. The reason why I said that some of those projects delayed - especially on our part - was because we need to handle the issue of taxation at the Port of Mombasa with the Ministry of Finance. That has already been resolved. Therefore, all these projects are underway. In fact, some have already been completed. So, the Members from that region ought not to worry. We have handled all the concerns. I give my undertaking and word that no project under that particular funding will stall.
I think Mr. Mbadi is directly concerned because one of the beaches is in his constituency.
You can articulate it yourself. Proceed.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, considering the fact that Kisumu Airport will be opened very soon, and the export of fish products, particularly to the EU will be a very important aspect, when will the project be completed so that Ogal Beach Fish Landing Site can be used by the fishermen around there?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is anticipated that by the end of this year, we will have put behind the issue of that project. They will be up and running and, therefore, the fishermen will meet the standards required under the EU Market. There will be no hiccups as far as accessing the EU Market is concerned.
asked the Minister for Lands:- (a) whether he is aware that land parcel No. Inoi/Kerugoya/250/275, measuring 0.527ha belonging to Kerugoya District Hospital has been irregularly acquired; and, (b) what the Minister is doing to halt the ongoing construction on the parcel and restore the land to the hospital. I would also like to disclose that the Minister has communicated with me that he will be away. I hope he has communicated to the Chair as well. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, maybe, I can fully disclose that the Assistant Minister for Lands, Mr. Gonzi Rai, did write to me stating that he is the one who has the responsibility of answering this Question and that he is away in Kinango, bereaved. I had hoped that he would also pass the message to the Chair. But I must confess I received that letter, and subject to the Chair, I would be willing to wait for the answer next week.
Fair enough. Apparently, the hon. Assistant Minister has lost somebody close or dear. Under the circumstances, the Chair directs that this Question be listed on the Order Paper next week on Tuesday.
asked the Minister for Roads:- (a) whether he could state the number of people who have died from road accidents along Kangonde-Kitui Road since it was tarmacked, (b) what the causes of those accidents are; and, (c) whether the Government could urgently erect road bumps on all the “black spots” on the road to avert more accidents and deaths.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) Regrettably, I wish to confirm that 30 people have lost their lives along Kangonde-Kitui Road since the road was tarmarcked in 2009. (b) According to information available to me and received from the Police Department, the following have been identified as the major causes of accidents:- over- speeding by motorists, inexperienced motorcycle riders who are also ignorant of road safety regulations, failure by pedestrians and other road users to observe road safety rules - here wild animals are also guilty; and disregard of the Highway Code by drivers.
(c) My Ministry has noted with concern the increasing number of reported road accidents, especially on improved road sections which should provide enhanced safety and comfort to our road users. As I have pointed out above and before, over-speeding by motorists is one notorious cause of accidents on our roads. For that reason, erection of speed bumps may not always be the appropriate solution to the problem. There is need for a multi-sectoral approach that includes sensitization of drivers and members of the public, together with the motorcyclists. I am glad that the Road Safety Council under the Ministry of Transport is being revitalized to address that problem in a wholesome manner. In the meantime, my Ministry is evaluating all the roads in the country with a view to instituting appropriate safety measures on those roads.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, whereas I do appreciate the issues that the Minister has raised as the major causes of accidents for that particular road, the main causes of accidents are missing road signs which were not fixed by the contractor, road markings which were not done before the road was opened for use and poorly constructed culverts. The biggest contributor is loose chippings of concrete which were left behind by the contractor when he was constructing the road. In fact, as far as we are concerned, that road is not yet complete. What is your Ministry doing to ensure that those specific causes of accidents on that particular road are addressed?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to agree that one of the reasons could be road markings and signs. But I want to bring to the attention of the hon. Member that one particular road section, Lanet to Njoro Turnoff which is complete with road bumps, road markings and road signs has claimed more than 70 lives. The road is fully marked; it has got bumps. I think the blame should be more on the driver and not the road signs. Yes, I accept that there are areas of roads that may not be free from blame but, the larger part of it, more than 85 per cent of road accidents in the country are attributed to human error.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, my concern is with the road bumps that are erected on the roads. Could the Minister tell us when he will make sure that, before bumps are erected on the roads, white clear signs are put, rather than just putting black tar on the road? Could the Government have uniform bumps so that some do not appear like mountains while others are flat? Could we have one type of bumps with clear white markings to show their location? When will that be done?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I agree with the hon. Member that the road bumps are not of the same size. It is because they are not built together with the road. My instructions - close to a year ago - are that road bumps shall be built together with roads mainly in trading centres. You will notice that in Nakuru, Emali and Loitoktok, those kinds of bumps are gentle and comfortable to the driver. They will not cause any accidents. But I want Members of Parliament to assist us in this. We should all together sensitize members of the public and more so, the drivers to observe the Highway Code and also mind the people in their vehicles.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank the Minister for those remarks. In the last item, I has asked about loose chippings on the road which were left by the contractor and the uncompleted works. What is the Ministry doing to ensure that all the work is completed, including the gentle bumps in Kabati Market, Katuta and Mutanda?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I cannot order for the loose chippings to be removed because they are part and parcel of road construction. They are supposed to provide grip on the tarmac when they are wiped out of the road. So, I cannot, in any way, order for those chippings to be removed because over time, we expect them to be removed. What we want is motorists to stop over-speeding.
Order, hon. Members! The Chair directs that Questions Nos. 1001 and 1139 be deferred to tomorrow morning.
We will only entertain one Statement today from Dr. Eseli.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to request for a Ministerial Statement from the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security regarding spiraling insecurity in Bungoma County over the last one month. In the Statement, the Minister will explain the following:- What is the cause of the recent upsurge of insecurity that has seen the murder of the acting chief of Mukuyuni Location on the night of 18th August, 2011; the Deputy Mayor of Webuye and that of a businessman Mr. John Wekesa at Sihendo Market? What measures is the Minister taking to ensure security in Bungoma County in general and, especially, in Bungoma North District? What measures is the Minister taking to assist the family of the late acting chief Ms. Margaret Kakai who had distinguished herself in the service of the people and the Government?
Minister in charge of internal security do respond.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, if you can allow me, I can give some information on preliminary investigations in two minutes, and then---
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on 19th August, 2011, at about 1.50 a.m. at Sinoko village, Mukuyuni Sub-Location, Mukuyuni Location of Central Division, Bungoma East District, a gang of three men armed with AK-47 rifles attacked the home of Mrs. Ann Masinde, the Deputy Principal, Mukuyuni Secondary School. When the gangsters failed to break the steel door, they fired one round of ammunition through the window, but nobody was injured.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the gang then proceeded to the servant quarters, where they took hostageTitus Wafula, aged 26 years, and ordered him to take them to the home of the area Assistant Chief. On the way the gang released the employee after beating him up, and causing him minor injuries. On the way, the gang met the Assistant Chief, Margaret Kakai, accompanied by two men, Paul Machum and Kennedy Wanyonyi, who were responding to a distress call from the Deputy Principal, Mrs. Ann Masinde. When the two men realized that the gangsters were armed, they escaped, leaving the Assistant Chief at the mercy of the gangsters. The gang then took the Assistant Chief hostage, and demanded that she leads them to her home. The Assistant Chief declined to take the gang to her home, prompting one of them to shoot her on the left lower abdomen and hit her with a balant object on the head killing her instantly. The gang then escaped after stealing the deceased’s Nokia phone No.0710874533 and a rain coat. The scene was visited by the Officer Commanding Police Division (OCPD) Bungoma East, Eliud Okelo, SP, and the District Officer (DO1), Moses Gakuto. The police, with the assistance of the police track dog, tracked the gangsters up to Kamkuywa area, where the dog lost scent. Back at the scene, the police recovered two spent cartridges and the body was moved to Kitale Cheranganyi Nursing Home mortuary to await post-mortem. The case is under investigations by the Provincial Administration. I would also want to say that we are have very good leads, which I would not want to divulge. I request the Questioner to give us one or two weeks to come up with the whole investigation report.
Dr. Eseli, perhaps, you, indeed, want to be discreet about this for a short while. So, if you would allow the Assistant Minister one week, he can come back with a more comprehensive Statement, so that you do not prejudice investigations, which are being carried out; perhaps you can also follow up with the Assistant Minister to see exactly what he is doing, because even your own security may be under threat.
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Very well, a week from today, give us a progress report.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, let me give the progress report after two weeks. That will be enough for me. I asked for one or two weeks.
Fair enough; please, in the meantime ensure that leaders in that area are safe, including the Member for Kimilili.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to assure this House that the Member for Kimilili will be safe; nothing will happen to him. We have already dispatched a contingent of police officers to that area. The area is being combed now, and within two weeks, I will be able to report progress to this House.
Minister for Foreign Affairs, a quick Statement!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
reply to what?
Sorry, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I wish to give a Ministerial Statement on the safety of Kenyans in the United Kingdom---
Order, Assistant Minister! Whatever you have so far said is in the HANSARD record, you must withdraw the words “ I beg to reply”, put the correct position, and then proceed.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Sometimes tiredness catches up with you. I withdraw those remarks.
There was a request for a Ministerial Statement on the safety of Kenyans in the United Kingdom in the wake of the violent riots on Tuesday, 16th August, 2011. The violent rioting that was experienced in London was triggered when a Mr. Mark Duggan, 29, was shot dead by the police in Tottenham on Thursday, 4th August, 2011. The death occurred during an operation. Specialist Firearms officers and officers from Operation Trident, the unit that deals with gun crime in the African and Caribbean communities, were attempting to carry out an arrest of the said individual.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, today, however, the situation is calm in London, and all the other areas where there were riots. There has been massive police presence, which has helped to maintain law and order. There have been no new reports of major disorder in the London Capital, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool or Bristol cities. Up to now, the Kenya High Commission has not received information of any Kenyan who was in distress as a result of the riots, and it is believed that there are no Kenyans who have been directly affected by these riots. If there were any, we would have intervened.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, finally, I wish to observe that the situation in the United Kingdom has come down drastically, and the Government of Kenya does not consider it necessary to issue a travel advisory to Kenyans travelling to the United Kingdom. Indeed, the High Commission in London, which has continued to closely monitor the daily events, or what is happening, has told the Ministry of Foreign Affairs that everything is calm; everything has returned to normal.
Order! Hon. Members, essentially that matter is settled; so, we will let it rest, where it is.
Order! Order! Hon. Members, please, note that there is a Supplementary Order Paper and that from this point henceforth, we shall be guided by the Supplementary Order Paper.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Procedural Motion:- THAT, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order 20(2) this House orders that the sitting time of today’s Sitting be extended until conclusion of business appearing on the Order Paper.
Order! Order! Hon. Members, please, lower the level of your consultations, so that we can hear the Leader of Government Business.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank hon. Namwamba for complying and ask if he could kindly listen.
Order! Order, Member for Bura! You have facilities not very far from the Chamber to consult with the Member for Nyakach. You can easily do so by just withdrawing into those designated areas.
Proceed, Leader of Government Business.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, there are 18 Orders of the day and, clearly, this is substantial work. The reason for moving this Motion has to do with the need for us to beat the constitutional deadline of 26th August, 2011. I want to mention here that the Cabinet, on its part, has discussed all the Bills that are in accordance with Schedule Five. The onus now is clearly on the House to do our bit. I have said before, from the Floor of this House, that the Tenth Parliament has a date with destiny. It is this House that so proudly gave this country a document that is now world acclaimed as one of the most progressive constitutions in the world. However, as the Tenth Parliament, we also have to provide leadership in terms of making sure that this Constitution is fully implemented. One does understand the anxiety with which Kenyans have been viewing the deliberations of the House so far with regard to beating the 26th August, 2011 deadline. Therefore, I want to congratulate each Member of this House because I know that they have been ready to get on with the business of debating all the Bills that come to this House. Mr. Speaker, Sir, because of the wide consultations that have been taking place amongst the stakeholders, namely the Constitutional Implementation Oversight Committee(CIOC), the Commission for the Implementation of the Constitution (CIC), the Ministry of Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs and other stakeholders, there has been a measure of delay with regard to bringing before the House the Bills. However, I am now happy to mention that there have been wide consultations as a result of which each hon. Member will now have in his or her possession a minimum of seven Bills. Therefore, it is clear that we will have to burn the midnight oil. At the level of the House Business Committee, we actually met at a very unusual time yesterday, being a Monday, which is not a parliamentary day, because of the gravity of the situation that is facing us. We were able to recommend – which we again hereby do before this House – that we sit for as long as it is necessary to ensure the full implementation of the Constitution. Even our Catering Committee has been very kind. I am informed that even our Muslim brothers and sisters, who are fasting can have their
within the precincts of Parliament. Therefore, it will be possible to even provide supper, if necessary, so that we can be seen by our constituents to be discharging our full responsibility to ensure that we enact these pieces of legislation. Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is, therefore, in order that, as a leader, I recognise that Members have been ready but we, the Executive, as a result of those consultations, have not been able to be as forthcoming as hon. Members would have expected. In fact, hon. Members would say that they have been actually ready and willing to pass these Bills but, as I said, we have taken a bit of time. This is all to be taken in the spirit with which it is presented, and an apology may be in order, if there have been Members of Parliament who feel that the Executive has not been able to meet them halfway. Therefore, I want to suggest humbly that we commit ourselves. We even recommended that this House will sit until Friday. I will be coming tomorrow to move that. For today, I thank the Member for Ikolomani who is a Member of the House Business Committee (HBC) because he knows that we looked at this matter with the seriousness that it deserves. We do not want this country for one moment to feel that this House has been wanting when it comes to the matter of full implementation of our Constitution. I beg to move. Mr. Speaker, Sir, Mr. Abdikadir came as a guest to the HBC; I want to thank the Abdikadir Committee, if he can accept that wording, because they have been burning the midnight oil literally. We found consultations with the Committee absolutely wonderful and phenomenal. I think this is why we can now as a House speak with one voice. I kindly request Mr. Abdikadir to second this Motion.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to second the Motion. I know Members of this House have very little to do with the delay in the process as far as the implementation process is concerned. The Members of the Back Bench who are in the critical committees have been, for the last few months, pleading with the other institutions that handle this matter to hurry up this process so that Parliament can have its time with this process. However, that has not happened. I plead with my colleagues in the Back Bench and I will plead with the House that two wrongs do not make one right. We in the Back Bench and we in this House have been pleading to have these Bills for the last few months. We honestly believe that, that could have been done but that did not happen. Now we are faced with a situation where Parliament either breaches the Constitution and seeks more time or we burn the midnight oil and move this process forward. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have heard discussions about the quality of the Bills. Let me assure Members that each of these Bills has been in the works for years. The Bills on elections have been in the works for the last three years; since the Kriegler Commission. The Bills on the Police have had task force after task force handling them. The Bills on devolution have had the devolution task force handling them. It is time that we uphold as a House to rise to the occasion. This House has time and again risen to that occasion. Time has come for the Kenyan public to know that this House has bent over backwards to ensure that it meets its duties to the country and the Constitution. It is now time, once more, for this House to burn the midnight oil for us to move forward with this process with a serious plea to the Members of Parliament that we need their support in this critical time. I support.
Member for Central Imenti!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I appreciate---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order, Mr. Nyamweya! I have already called for the Member for Central Imenti. Therefore, unless you want to raise a point of order concerning the Member for Central Imenti catching the Speaker’s eye, you will be out of order at this point. Proceed!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as much as I appreciate that this is a Procedural Motion that should not take too long to debate, nevertheless, we must not allow this House to become a rubber stamp House.
I rise to oppose this Procedural Motion. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this Executive has had 365 days to prepare Bills to ensure that they comply with the provisions of the Constitution. The purpose of publishing Bills is that Kenyan citizens get an opportunity to read, scrutinize, understand and raise their objections with their respective Members of Parliament so that these issues can be debated and where necessary, we pass a law that is well scrutinized; a Bill or a law that meets public expectations. This is because we have had a history of rushing Bills through this House and then we come to regret much later that we should never have allowed it. The amendments that brought Section 2A were rushed in this House in 45 minutes. We have passed that period. Mr. Speaker, Sir, just the other day, the Nyachae Commission seeing serious discrepancies and seeing serious objections in the Financial Management Bill recommended that we take advantage of the constitutional provisions that allow us to extend time within which to read; not to extend the life of Parliament, but time within which to satisfy the Kenyan people that the Bills that are being brought to the House do meet the expectations not only of the people but also the letter and spirit of the Constitution. The Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs has been complaining in this House very regularly about the frustrations we have been going through. I, personally have stood in this House every time the Deputy Leader of Government Business has risen to tell us that the Executive is working to bring these Bills on time. They have not brought them on time. I recall when the President came to address this Parliament in a Special Session calling upon us to debate these Bills in time to meet the constitutional deadlines. What explanations have you offered for this delay? None! You have not even dared to offer an apology rather than to say apologies are due. You do not want to acknowledge that you have been in the wrong. What you want us to do as Parliament is to rubber-stamp decisions that you have taken when you know you have not given any reasons. I think what this House should do is, if necessary, sit late, but not for the purposes of acquiescing in the breach of the Constitution. Mr. Speaker, Sir, these Bills have hardly been circulated. As I speak today, I have just passed these Bills, but I have not even seen what they contain. How am I expected to sit here until midnight to pass Bills I have not had an occasion to read and which Kenyan people have not heard occasion to refer to?
I oppose this Motion. I oppose it very vehemently.
Member for Tigania East!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to oppose this Motion.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, these are very important Bills meant to implement our Constitution---
Order, Member for Tigania East!
These are constitutional matters. There is nothing like the Government in constitutional matters!
Order, Member for Tigania East! You will be out of order to proceed on the basis on which you had just started. This is because this is a Government Motion. So, unless you step down from the Government, you cannot oppose the Government when it has business before the House. Member for Rongo, please, proceed!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand to support this Motion. In supporting the Motion, I wish to explain a little of the process in developing these Bills---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
What is it Mr. Nyamweya?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am rather concerned and I need to raise this point. The Leader of Government Business has been at pains to tell us why we must expedite this exercise. The Chairman of the Constitutional Implementation Oversight Committee concurs somewhat reluctantly with him. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have risen on a number of occasions about how we, ourselves, as a House are actually going contrary to our own Standing Orders. We are now being asked to go through six to seven Bills of necessity, and you have ruled so, that Bills must be committed to the relevant departmental committees for scrutiny.
The Constitution is quite clear as to why we need to send Bills to the relevant departmental committees. This is to allow for public participation.
Order, Mr. Nyamweya! I have actually followed you very closely. Just be kind to us and resume your seat for a minute. I want to help you and give you directions.
The matter that you are raising after I have listened to you for the past two minutes is obviously legitimate but the point at which you are raising it is not correct. You should have raised that matter before that Order started but now it has been moved and seconded. The House is now seized of it. So, if you want to make your contribution against the Motion, now that the House is in possession of the Motion, you can speak against it in your contribution and make those sentiments known. What you should do is to catch the Speaker’s eye so that you can say all those matters and then we will proceed accordingly.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not challenging your ruling. I rose and you advised me on the way forward. But nevertheless, I will abide by the ruling and rise at the appropriate time to oppose the unconstitutional method we are taking.
The hon. Member for Rongo, you may proceed!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this Motion is all by Leave of the House that we may proceed. Hon. Members are aware that the process of developing these Bills starts with an initiative from the relevant Ministries, and under that process, there is very wide stakeholder consultation. After a Bill is constituted, the consultations proceed to the Law Reform Commission and copies are taken to the Attorney-General, the Commission on Implementation of the Constitution (CIC) and finally, the Cabinet looks at it if there is an agreement on the` content of the Bill, to make sure that it embraces all the aspects required under the Constitution and within the Government. After that, the Bill again goes through the same process before it is published and brought to this House.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Minister to mislead the House while his colleague, barely a week ago, stood in the House and said that he has been frustrated as the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs by the same Government? In the words of the Minister, the Government was not willing to implement the Constitution. So, is the Minister in order to mislead the House that it is the issue of the process while it is lack of commitment by the same Government?
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Is it on the same matter or do you want to reinforce the point of order by the hon. Member for Yatta?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, Munya is an Assistant Minister and he has just stood here---
Order, the hon. Member for Kathiani! Resume your seat for a moment. If you are going to refer to the hon. Member for Tigania East, please, do so with decorum. You cannot just mention an hon. Member’s name without prefixing it appropriately. So, refer to him correctly.
Hon. Peter Munya has just stood in this House to oppose the Procedural Motion and yet we have---
Order! You are not accurate. The way I was trained to speak English, Mr. Munya has not just stood here. He stood here ten minutes ago! The Member for Kathiani, you are out of order!
Proceed, the hon. Member for Rongo!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is no Minister within the Government who has been unwilling to support the implementation of the Constitution. If there is anything, we can describe it as a learning curve. We are within our first year under the new Constitution. A number of procedures and many details were not in place and immediately the Ministries commenced the process starting from the technical levels up to consultative levels, it took us time. However, you can see an added acceleration in completing these Bills now. When my colleague, the Minster for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs complained of frustration, he was referring to results and not that any Minister was refusing to do something, but that the result were not fast-coming.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is now the turn of Parliament within its own judgement either to accept to do as much as it can do or ask for extension by two-thirds of the votes of this House to be able to get more time to debate these Bills. However, where it is possible, we should do our best as a House to be able to deliver and stick to the timelines.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. From the outset, I want to oppose this Motion. I do so because after listening to Mr. Otieno trying to support this Procedural Motion, I am left with many questions. What is the role of Parliament? Is it that we wait and when it is only four days to the deadline, Bills are rushed here and we are told to support them so that we can make mistakes? These Bills are very crucial to me because some of them have a bearing towards the implementation of the new Constitution. We have had Bills or amendments to the Constitution being brought to the House and hon. Members told to pass them because of time, and if we do not, this and that will happen. The Government has been there and stakeholders’ meetings have been held before but we also have Committees of Parliament. I sit in one of the committees and I was told today that there is a Bill which we have to pass by Thursday. We have summoned the Minister and all the stakeholders to appear before the committee, but will we really make proper judgment on that Bill? We need to make proper judgment so that we can pass this Bill.
Finally, the Government has had all the time because it is now roughly a year since the promulgation of the new Constitution. Saturday will be on 27th and even if we pass the Procedural Motion and stay here until midnight, will we really pass all these Bills? Why can we not have the crucial Bills? If they are six or seven, can the Minister in charge tell us, as a House, that these are very crucial Bills we need to pass by 27th and the balance, if they are ten or 12, we can pass them after the extension? Alternatively, we can make the request of the two-thirds majority so that we can extend the time to even 60 days.
With those few remarks, I oppose the Procedural Motion.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion. This is because we cannot correct a mistake with another mistake. A mistake has happened but this country has to move forward. We have to make sure that we implement the Bills within the specified time.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, something has been happening in this Parliament. I think we need a very good Public Relations Officer in this Parliament who will talk on behalf of Members of Parliament. This is because mistakes happen somewhere but at the end of the day, Parliament is blamed for those mistakes. The Executive has its own fault but it is not alone. There are other people who also look at these Bills. They are Ministers, CIC and the Attorney-General. Some delays happened somewhere and let everybody do his or her job. Let the Executive or Parliament not be blamed because of some people. Let everybody carry out his or her responsibility. If everyone did that then some of the things we are debating here and wasting time on would not have arisen. We want Parliament to be protected. I will repeat that we need a Public Relations Officer to speak on behalf of Parliament.
Order! The Member for Kathiani, I know this has been a bit of a rough afternoon for you. However, when Members debate issues in this House, do they really waste time?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I withdraw that remark. It is not wasting time, but it is taking so much of our time, when we should be talking about the implementation of the Constitution.
Thank you very much. I think that is clear.
Yes, the Member for Gichugu!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise in support of the Motion. I am a critic and an opponent of the Government, but I am representative of the people of Kenya. This Motion is not about the Government. This is a Motion about the nation of Kenya and people of Kenya and about implementing the Constitution so that its fruits may get to the people of Kenya. It is true that we could have done better and brought these Bills to the House before, but I think now that they have come, Parliament must show its capacity to debate and expedite the Bills. This is not the first time we have reduced the publication time. I hear double speak. It is regrettable that they have come late, but we have been able to salvage the situation before. I want to go on record as one who is ready, able and willing to burn the midnight oil to ensure that Kenyans get the fruits of the Constitution they so much laboured for.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to say that the Elections Bill is one which we have debated for more than one year in various circles outside this Parliament and as Members of Parliament, we have been involved. Members of the public have also been involved and the provisions of this Bill are not a surprise to the majority of us and Kenyans. It is possible, heavy as it is, for us to expedite this process.
The Power of Mercy Bill is a Bill that we can again expedite. The Ethic and Anti- Corruption Commission Bill already exists and we are just aligning it to the Constitution. It is possible with willingness. Where there is a will, there is a way. I plead with hon. Members not to see the Executive but to see Kenya, our constituents and the nation and to do what is necessary.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to support the Procedural Motion.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is like Ms. Karua has taken words out of my mouth. Nonetheless, I want to plead with my colleagues that what is before us is not an issue of the Government but an issue of the Constitution. As it were, this Parliament may well play in the hands of people who do not want this Constitution to be implemented. Mr. Speaker, Sir, as you may know, Kenya is the only country or may be one of the very few countries which promulgated a new Constitution and did not proceed immediately to an election. Therefore, there are difficulties. We have sat here up to midnight on many occasions to pass laws. I want to plead with my colleagues that it is very important that we transcend the naysayers in the Executive. These Bills have been required for the last one year and they did not come. Let us not please them by the surprise which they may think they have sprung on this country. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to support this Procedural Motion. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I support it contrary to the assertions by Ms. Karua, in particular. Indeed, the reason I was inclined to oppose was for the same reason that this Parliament cannot be turned into a rubberstamp. I have been on record for being against this. However, I am now supporting this Procedural Motion because as a senior citizen of this Republic; desirous of the changes that we have been looking for and appreciating that this Government is completely incompetent to that extent, and that there is no amount of coercion or persuasion that will make them rise to the occasion, I will not give them that chance to take this country down. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to support.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to request the hon. Members to bear with me for a few minutes. Mr. Speaker, Sir, you will remember that there is a famous saying that all of us are entitled to our own opinions, but nobody is entitled to his own facts. This is because facts are facts. The Constitution was promulgated on 27th August, 2010. We did not appoint a commission for its implementation until 6th January, 2011. That is when that commission came into force. The other facts which are critical---
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not want to go to the “why” because people will think that I am maligning Parliament. However, the fact of the matter is that we bear some element of responsibility. As in all cases where you find disputes, each side has some contributing factor. Therefore, the HANSARD will bear me out that we sworn in the Commission on Implementation of the Constitution (CIC) on 6th January, 2011. Mr. Speaker, Sir, fact number two, which hon. Members cannot dispute is that the Constitution says clearly that unless Bills are taken through that Commission, they cannot find their way to this Floor. Again, they must go through the Attorney-General and I am not in any way criticizing that. I happen to be the only Minister who has presented Bills to this Floor since 27th August, 2010 and I want to salute this House for standing up to the occasion. I want to salute this Parliament as a Parliament that will be remembered for the rest of the history of this country and as a Parliament that facilitated the new Constitution.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. You heard the hon. Minister say; “you are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your facts”, and I agreed completely. Is he in order in the same breath to say that he is the only Minister who has brought Bills to this House when there have been other Ministers? Secondly, he is bringing those Bills in his capacity as a Minister of Government. Is the Minister in order to mislead this House that he is the only performing Minister?
Mr. Minister, do you have any response at all?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as a matter of fact because I have a lot of time for the hon. Member, I do not want to belabour the point. I can withdraw that remark. If the HANSARD bears me out and he is happy, I will leave it at that. Mr. Speaker, Sir, allow me to say that the facts are that without these Bills receiving the approval of the CIC, they cannot find their way to the Floor of the House. You have seen me complain and it is important that I correct the position. My complaint has been one, on the delay for the preparation of Bills for taking to His Excellency the President once Parliament has passed them and two, delays in publishing Bills once they have been taken to the Government Printer. The CIOC has dealt with those complaints. As far as I am concerned, that is a matter in the past. Allow me, having correctly said – and I have not been criticized – that this House will be remembered in history for having debated and facilitated the promulgation of the new Constitution in 2010. This House must look at the Bills we have on the Floor. One of them is on elections. This country went on its knees in 2008, arising from elections. One of them is on Police Reforms. The other one is on setting up courts, particularly on land use, employment and labour relations. The other on is on a majority of governance issues that are required. I would like to salute Martha Karua for saying on the Floor of the House that this is not about Parliament. It is not even about the Executive; this is about giving a reality to Kenyans and giving them the gift that they gave themselves on 4th August last year when they went to vote and turned out in large numbers. On 27th August last year, when they filled Uhuru Park in the presence of the President, the Prime Minister and all of us, in the promulgation of the new Constitution. You should not delay by merely saying that you do not want to sit until the business is completed. First of all, the Motion does not say that you have to sit until midnight. If you finish on the Bill by 8.00 o’clock, we can all go home. Therefore, allow me to persuade the House; because I have been here with hon. Members, that this Motion is timely. If we do not pass it, we will be exposing Kenyans to enormous damages. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have persuaded myself that the challenge ahead of us is enormous. When I look at some of the Bills that we want to address by this extension, one of them is the Election Bill. We should ask ourselves what we want to achieve in that Bill. Hon. Members, you will realize that this is the answer to Government’s tendency to push things down our throats. If the Coalition Government is unable to perform--- It has taken it one year to give us what it is now giving us in a period of one week. What greater opportunity do we have than to fast track the exercise today, have the Act on Elections in place and ask the country to go into elections so that we can be given a proper Government that can give us the order that we need in this country! Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are now asking ourselves to make a small sacrifice, namely, we work extended hours. As we work those extended hours, we must know that, in the process of Constitution, now at its tail end, we are not the only ones that are making a sacrifice. There are many Kenyans who have made greater sacrifices than us. There are people who have died because of this process. If we sit a few more hours so that the souls of people like Odhiambo Mbai can rest in peace - they lost their lives looking for a Constitution for this country - we will have done justice, not just to him, but also to members of his family. Finally, one of the things that I will suffer when I sit here for prolonged hours is that I do not like eating supper after 10.00 O’clock. We have people in this country who do not have that kind of luxury because of bad governance courtesy of bad leadership. They are dying because nobody gives them food. Let us pass this particular Motion so that we have a leadership in the country that can allow me to eat on time, and ensure that all Kenyans can eat on the time that they want. I support.
Mr. Orengo): Thank you Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this Motion. I understand why there should be some misgivings about a Procedural Motion like this one, coming at this time and, probably, why, in the eyes or minds of many, it is being accelerated. I, for one, with the history that I know about previous occasions when Bills have been brought to this House at the last minute and rushed for debate, this House has read some misgivings and I sympathize with the misgivings. For example, a few years back, when the Government at that time wanted to change this country to a one part State, a Motion and a Bill were brought before this House to expedite the enactment of that Bill. One can give very many examples. The only difference I can see is that, at that time, there were attempts to interfere with the Constitution and minimize the democratic space. The Bills that came at that time were not about expanding the democratic space. The Constitution that was promulgated by His Excellency the President on 27th August, last year, is already in place. The Kenyan people expect us to implement the Constitution now and not tomorrow. For example, when it comes to elections, already there is a commission established. That commission cannot operate until we have enabling legislation. For example, by dint of Article 79 of the Constitution, we have an Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission which is operating outside Chapter Six of the Constitution. It is on Leadership and Integrity. For this reason, I really beg and urge hon. Members that this is the time that they can show that they want this Constitution implemented today and not tomorrow. Article 261 requires Parliament to enact and not the Executive. For those reasons, I beg to support.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as much as I decline to agree with all the speakers, there is one thing that we must make abundantly clear. Nobody needs to persuade anybody else about the importance of this Constitution. Nobody should even try and suggest that those of us who may rise to point out certain things are in any way opposed to the implementation. The reason why we moved to get a new Constitution was so that we can learn to discipline ourselves and live within the rule of law. There are procedures. I rose earlier on. There is a Constitution upon which the Standing Orders of the House are derived. The Standing Orders require that all Bills, after the First Reading, must be committed to the departmental committee responsible for the Bills. The reason why the Constitution provides that is such that members of the public can interrogate and participate in that formal manner through a Committee of the House. It is not enough to say that, outside Parliament, there have been seminars and workshops and that these things have been debated there and, therefore, Parliament must simply do what it is required to do. The duty and responsibility of every Member of Parliament is to scrutinize and satisfy themselves that what they will append their approval to is a legislation that will conform to their conscience and the desires of the people and the Constitution itself. We cannot persuade ourselves to pass bad laws simply because we think we are running out of time. Kenya is not running out of time. Recently, I was looking at one of the Bills that have been passed in this House; the Supreme Court Act. I may wish to point out to you, the House and the country that, in that particular Act it actually reads this way: “The Supreme Act”. I asked the Parliamentary Service Commission and they told me that, that was correct. Obviously, we wanted to call it: “The Supreme Court Act”, but the Act itself reads: “The Supreme Act.” Therefore, we are required to bring an amendment through the House and yet, the Act that is supposed to guide the Supreme Court is already wrong. Now, we are being asked, without the benefit of any committee scrutinizing these things, to rush all these things so that Kenyans can think we are wonderful people and nobody is doing anything to delay this. Mr. Speaker, Sir, among the things that the House Business Committee and the Leader of Government Business are asking us to do is to waive the Anti-Corruption Bill pursuant to Standing Order 111. That is the one that refers Bills to Committees. So, we are being told: “Waive these things. Do not use the Standing Orders. Do not use the Committees. Trust us. We have sat together in the Grand Coalition Cabinet and we suggest to you these things are safe.” Therefore, Members of Parliament are being asked to put their faith blindly in whatever has happened there. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in good conscience, I cannot be persuaded to follow a route which has so many dangers. Therefore, I stand to oppose this Motion.
Order, hon. Members! Those of you who are going to contribute hereafter, restrict yourselves to two minutes and, in the next ten minutes, we shall conclude this matter.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am encouraged by the mood in the House; the commitment to do justice to the Kenyan people as has been so well articulated by hon. Members who have spoken in support of the need to extend time, so that we can have the time that we require to scrutinize these Bills. If we do not extend the time that we sit in this House, we will actually not be having the time that we require to debate those Bills in the House. I think that is the most important thing in Motion No.1. Mr. Speaker, Sir, leadership is best displayed in times of need and difficulties. I know it is darkest before dawn. That dawn may be coming and some people maybe fearing what will happen at dawn. But we cannot stop the dawn. It is very important that we now rise to the occasion and show our leadership in these times of difficulty. Mr. Speaker, Sir, as we were debating this Motion in our committees, we took cognizance of the fact that the current crop of Members of Parliament have displayed their competence in multi-tasking, in looking at these Bills in their own sessions and there is no doubt that, that capacity will come out in the debate and in getting these Bills to be passed within the time that we require. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would have been persuaded to support this Motion if it were not for the Motions that follow thereafter. Mr. Speaker, Sir, just as Mr. George Nyamweya has said, this Procedural Motion that is being moved to extend the Sitting Time until the closure of whatever business that is in the Order Paper, is a launching pad for the Motions to follow, which virtually means denying this House the right to scrutinize the Bills. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this House is not subordinate to any other body. For us to be persuaded that the Bills have gone through CIC, public hearings and some task forces, it does not abrogate the duty of this House and Members of Parliament to scrutinize this. In case---
Order, Member for Bura! I am very reluctant to interfere with your contribution, but you will note that you are speaking on Procedural Motion under Order No.8. So, avoid being anticipatory.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank you. That is why I said that the Motion itself is anticipating whatever Motions are supposed to come later on. Mr. Speaker, Sir, if Kenyans have been persuaded that, if these Bills are not passed on time, this country will crumble and people will die, then that is not the case. The Constitution itself envisaged a situation where--- Maybe, the drafters of the Constitution knew the snail’s pace at which this Government operates. It looks like a wheel barrow, as one hon. Member put it before. It will never move until you have to move it yourself. They had anticipated and, at least, given a window where---
Order, Member for Bura! You are saying the Government looks like a wheelbarrow? The Government includes the Legislature. As far as I know, if you want to include yourself in looking like a wheelbarrow, I exclude myself!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank you for your guidance. I meant the Executive arm of the Government.
So, withdraw the word “Government”.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I withdraw the word “Government” and now include the “Executive arm of Government”. Having clarified that---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. What does the hon. Member mean when he says “wheelbarrow”? Do we look like wheelbarrows? When you look at us, do we look like wheelbarrows?
Order. Hon. Member for Bura! You are challenged to substantiate that the Executive looks like wheelbarrows.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in case the Member for Kathiani does not understand, I am using an idiom here. A wheelbarrow will never move until you move it. That is what the Executive arm of Government has become because it has taken a lot of cajoling, coercion, debate, pushing and shoving for them to bring these Bills to Parliament.
Order, Member for Bura! Your time is up, unfortunately.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand to strongly support the Motion. Kenya is going through a transitional period and we are working within very strict timeframes. What we have in the promulgation of the new Constitution is just the hard disk. What we are providing to Kenyans now through the Bills is the software. So, really, if we do not pass these Bills, Kenyans will still not have a new Constitution. If we delay any of these Bills, some of which are very critical and which are supposed to guide us even through the next elections, then we might be forced to even delay the time of our next elections; which I do not think Kenyans want. Mr. Speaker, Sir, every Member of the Tenth Parliament, and I am very proud of all the gentlemen and ladies here, has got the capacity to get the Bills on time even before distribution here. They have the capacity to read through each Bill, which could only take about one hour, include their comments and then come here to have some serious debate. To say that we do not have enough time to interrogate the Bills is not right. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in my concluding remarks, it has been said that desperate situations call for desperate measures. Every hon. Member here must now within his programme, provide for that desperate measure of going through the Bills in their own time, and coming to debate those same Bills here on time. We are not going to allow certain situations which were really the reasons for which Kenyans overwhelmingly supported a new Constitution to continue without proper reason. I believe that even out there - as we sit here, I was just hearing some whistles - I believe that Kenyans are already watching our debate and the whole country is against the extension of time. Can we extend our sittings and debate these Bills on time? I support. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is one of those very rare moments when I find myself supporting the Government.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to plead with my colleagues, and tell them what Kenyans want of the Government. All Kenyans, including the Executive, knew there was famine. For that reason, there was money provided for by the Treasury, Kshs14 billion, for that purpose. What the Government did not know was how to take food to the affected people who were dying.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, Parliament finds itself in the same situation. Everybody knew that there was a new Constitution and a deadline. But the Government did not know how to bring these Bills to the House. What Kenyans did was to form something called “Kenyans for Kenya”, to which we all contributed, even Members of Parliament. Next year, the Government should not expect “Kenyans for Kenya”. The only thing they should expect next year is a sacking. So, my suggestion to the Government, and my colleagues is, let us support this Motion; but we should tell the Government if they come back again with the same thing, we will not be forgiving.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as a Member of the Constitutional Implementation Oversight Committee (CIOC), to deal with the issue of urgency, we have subdivided ourselves into three sub-committees, which are working overtime. This House has very many intelligent people. So, I wish to plead with the hon. Members to support this Motion, but with a warning to the Executive---
Order, hon. Members! Hon. Members, I think we have reasonably captured the views of the House. We have endeavoured to take the diversity of this House into account; I think Members are in a position to proceed to the next level.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Procedural Motion:- THAT
Order, hon. Members! Let us hear the Leader of Government Business!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is obvious that most of the reasons given for moving this Procedural Motion, or indeed, the counter arguments and arguments for it have already been covered under Order No.8. As you pointed out, some of my colleagues’ observations were even in anticipation of the Orders that had not been reached. I would like to move that we order the shortening of the publication period, now that the reasons are very well known.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, please, allow me to say that with regard to the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs, hon. George Nyamweya will know that the Leader of Government Business in the company of one of the whips, hon. Midiwo, actually had a sitting with the committee and tried to implore them that there was need to make progress. In fact, our instructions were, let the committee reconcile as expeditiously as possible, so that we do not continue to overburden the CIOC. We thought we would actually make progress, only thereafter to be told that there were utter disagreements, necessitating the discussion that eventually took place at the level of the House Business Committee, suggesting reconstitution of this committee.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, even as late as yesterday, we agreed that the Leader of Government Business will have to continue engaging with this committee so that we can make progress. I thought I could use this occasion to really highlight the point, and to say that the Government is committed. The Executive arm of this Government is really not a wheelbarrow, as my good friend, the Member for Bura and the Assistant Member of Parliament for Mwingi North, as he likes to refer to himself, put it. We are not a wheelbarrow. We are committed. In fact, if it can be taken in the stride in which it was done, for the first time since the establishment of the First Republic, His Excellency President Kibaki had to convene a Cabinet meeting for last Saturday in response to his very serious commitment; he and all of us have to ensure full implementation of the Constitution.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I agree that there is no crisis. We are not faced with any crisis. I think on this point, it is important that we really take it as such. The country is under no crisis. This House is not having any crisis. But we have to demonstrate willingness. We cannot afford to give an impression other than that this is the most reform-minded Parliament.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not even know what my learned friend, the Member for Gichugu, is trying to communicate. But I am sure she is in agreement; for the reasons that I gave and other reasons, I beg to move.
My learned friend, the Member for Ugenya, would kindly second this Motion.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, since the reasons given under Order No.8 are the same as the reasons that we would give under Order No.9, I beg to second and urge Members of Parliament to support this Motion.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion. I am supporting for all the reasons that have been given. I would really like to urge the Executive side to stop lecturing us, because lectures are not necessary. The fault is on their side. We are fulfilling our mandate. Please reduce the lectures.
With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am one of those people who do not want to feel that I have being rushed to look at a Bill quickly and rubber stamp it; I fear that there is some trick. But I can assure this House that, looking at what the Government has brought, you should decide whether it has been brought in good faith or in bad faith. You can also excuse lateness. You can excuse laziness, if it is. I think you can excuse sloppiness, if it is. Please, you can excuse good faith of a Government that has been working for hours to bring these Bills on time. We have tried our level best.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the last two weeks, some of us have not even got time to go to their constituencies, because of this. I understand that I should not lecture. But I want to say one thing, that we have brought these Bills in good faith.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for my neighbour and a very good friend, the Minister of State for Immigration and Registration of Persons, to lecture this House on his lack of sleep for two weeks, when he slept for one year? If he had not slept for one year, he would have slept for the two weeks.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, my neighbour needs to go and read the Standing Orders a little better so that he knows what is a point of order and what is not.
For whatever reasons, let us reduce the publication time, so that we have time to debate these Bills before Friday. We can do it. We will give this country the best that we have within the shortest time possible. God Bless you.
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me an opportunity to support this Procedural Motion. Since we have passed the Procedural Motion on extension of sitting time, we will not be doing this House a service if we shall not support the shortening of the publication period for these Bills, so that we can have business to conduct within the extended period. Whatever has been done to these Bills is for the good of everybody in this country. It is not for the good of any individual, but for the good of everybody. The Bills are drafted according to the Constitution and for the good of the country. I beg to support.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the opportunity to contribute to this Motion. At the outset, I overwhelmingly support this Motion. Kenyans are anxious and apprehensive on the implementation of the Constitution. It is our Constitution, for our people and for this country. It is, therefore, important that we sacrifice and dedicate ourselves to the faster implementation of this Constitution. With those few remarks, I fully support.
Order, hon. Member! Essentially we have the mood of the House on this Bill.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Procedural Motion:- THAT, this House orders that the referral period for the National Police Service Bill (Bill No. 31 of 2011), The National Police Service Commission Bill (Bill No. 32 of 2011) and The Independent Policing Oversight Authority Bill (Bill No. 33 of 2011) to the Committee on Administration and National Security be reduced from ten to five days.
You may recall that last week, this House gave authority for the reduction of the publication period because of the need to fast-track debate and the passage of these Bills that are relevant to the reform of the Police Service. There was overwhelming support that this matter should be concluded as fast as possible. This Motion seeks to facilitate the fast-tracking of the commencement of debate on one of the critical Bills. This is listed as Order No.17, which is The National Police Service Bill, which Members will recall has implications of constitutional nature in terms of the appointment of a new Inspector- General of Police. It is important, having agreed last week that we fast-track it, that we commence debate on it today and hopefully, take it through and finish before the end of the week.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have had discussions at the committee level with the Committee on Administration and National Security and the Chairman was very supportive of fast-tracking this. I can see the Chairman is in the House and I would like to ask him to confirm that the committee is willing that we get the debate started. By the time we get to the Committee Stage, we can have the benefit of the House having debated it today, the committee having looked at it and then we can conclude the Bill as soon as possible.
I do not need to speak much on this. The matter is straightforward and I would wish to request the Chairman of the Committee on Administration and National Security, hon. Kapondi---
Order, Deputy Leader of Government Business! Please, resume your seat for a minute. You may not perhaps have recollected this, that earlier on this afternoon, the relevant departmental committee did, in fact, table its report. So, in effect, this Motion is spent. Perhaps, you wish to withdraw it because the committee has already taken action.
Much obliged, Mr. Speaker, Sir. It does appear the Motion is overtaken by events. Can I move the next one?
Withdraw the Motion.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I happily withdraw this Motion. I wish to apologize to the House for having taken that time on that matter.
Hon. Members, the Motion at Order No.10 stands withdrawn.
You can go to the next one!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Procedural Motion:- THAT, this House resolves that the referral period of the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission Bill (Bill No. 36 of 2011), pursuant to Standing Order 111 be waived.
Let me first of all explain that ordinarily, it would be expected that after the First Reading, the Bill would automatically get committed to a committee. The reason we are bringing this Motion is that it was desired at the House Business Committee that this Bill goes through the First Reading today and the Members have the opportunity to commence debate in Second Reading today while the committee simultaneously looks at the Bill. Between today and perhaps Thursday or Friday when the committee will be ready, we can walk and chew gum at the same time rather than have the First Reading today, then wait until tomorrow for the committal while the two processes could be going on concurrently.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this Bill is very critical and we have had a lot of discussions. I am sure the committee has already started looking at the Bill. For them to officially take on the matter and report, it is important that we do this. It is a technical way of putting this matter by reducing the time required for referral because between the First Reading today and the Second Reading today, there is no one day and we cannot ask for the time to be reduced to a few minutes. It is basically asking this House that we start today on the matter of discussion for the First Reading and Second Reading at the same time, which this House needs to approve.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Minister is moving this Motion under the Standing Order No.111 which presupposes that there is already a Bill before the House yet that Bill has not been read. It is Order No.14. Is the Minister, therefore, in order to move this Motion under Standing Order No.111?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the House has given authority in Order No.9 on this Bill. By the authority given under Order No.9, then it will come for First Reading. It is coming as part of getting all the Procedural Motions in a series. This Motion could well have come after the First Reading, but it is a matter of where it is placed on the Order Paper, all the Procedural Motions being placed together instead of one Procedural Motion, First Readings and then we go to Procedural Motions. If Members are not worried about the arrangement of the Motions, then we can look at the substance over form. The essence of it is that whether we dispose of this matter after the First Reading of the Bill, which will be coming under the next Order, or we do it now and accept, in principle, that we can have the two readings together, we will have satisfied the requirements of the Standing Order. I can see the concern by the hon. Member, but it is important to note that having discussed Order No.9, it would be fine to bring this Motion at this point in time.
With those remarks, I beg to move and ask hon. Abdikadir to second the Motion.
Member for Githunguri, I think you should be persuaded.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not persuaded at all. What the Minister sought under Order No. 9 was simply reduction of period of publication of the Bill, from 14 days to four days. I have no problem with that bit. However, under Order No. 11, he is seeking to dispense with the referral of this Bill to another committee, yet this Bill has not yet been read for the First Time before the House. He is, therefore, anticipating Order No. 14, and this is clearly unprocedural.
So, my point of order has not been responded to.
Member for Githunguri, I thought you would want to proceed by way of consensus; sometimes give and take. The doctrine of equity, which the Member for Kipipiri has cited in support of his argument, is helpful but it only applies where there is no express local law. In this case, there is express law available; if the Member for Githunguri wants to insist on the technical, then, I am afraid, he is right. Member for Kipipiri, you will then have to take that Motion after the Bill is read the First Time. That clears the matter. I direct accordingly.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the event that the Member for Githunguri would want us to stick to the technical details and the law, which I respect, I would request that the matter appearing as Order No.11 be re-arranged to come after Order No.15.
Hon. Members, in the light of the directions I have given and the request by the Member for Kipipiri, and pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order No.36, which vests in the Speaker some powers to arrange the order in which business may appear, I direct that we adjust the Order Paper so that Order No.12 moves up to become Order No.11 and the rest of the Orders follow accordingly, so that Order No.11 becomes Order No.15.
It is so directed!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Procedural Motion:- THAT, this House resolves that the referral period of the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission Bill (Bill No. 36 of 2011 ) pursuant to Standing Order 111 be waived.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I indicated earlier on, the essence of this Motion is to enable us, having read the Bill the First Time and referred it to the relevant departmental committee, to start debate on it in the House without having to wait for the Bill to be scrutinized by the committee; we are of the firm belief that the committee has already started looking at this Bill. Given the display of sharp eyes by the Member for Githunguri, in terms of giving attention to detail, I have no doubt that the Constitutional Implementation Oversight Committee, which has done us proud, will, simultaneously, be looking at all these matters, so that when we get to the Committee Stage, we will have a better legislation. We will save time by undertaking the two processes side by side.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not want to belabour the point. Some hon. Members have been uncomfortable with the wording. The whole process is meant to basically comply with the Standing Orders. So, we confirm that the Bill will be going to the committee, and that the committee will actually report its findings to the House by the time we get to the Committee Stage.
I would like to ask the hon---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This Bill is going to the committee at 5.00 p.m. The Minister now wants us to dispense with the provisions that give the committee the opportunity to look at the Bill, so that we can have the committee’s comments on it at the Committee Stage. The Bill can come here even as early as tomorrow. Why does he want us to waive our right to look at the recommendations of the committee? Is it in order for him to anticipate the report of the committee, which has not even met?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, there are two committees; the Committee of the whole House which will have to meet to look at this Bill and we will have the benefit of receiving the recommendations of the committee to which this Bill will have been committed and will have looked at it. I believe this will be made clearer by the Chairman of the Constitutional Implementation Oversight Committee (CIOC), Mr. Abdikadir, as he seconds this Motion. Mr. Speaker, Sir, with those words, I would like to ask Members; let us remember that the overriding objective is to get as much work put in to the hours we have extended. Let us clear as many Bills as we can so that Kenyan people can have the laws that they desire. I beg to move and ask the chairman of the CIOC, Mr. Abdikadir to second.
Order, Deputy Leader of Government Business! I have heard you but the concern by the Member for Central Imenti is so substantial and genuine that even as the Member seconding your Motion makes his contribution, he must be careful so as to avoid a situation where you are perhaps suggesting that you proceed to the Committee of the whole House before you have the input of the departmental committee. The input of the departmental committee will, among other things, entail possible amendments that Members are interested in.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to confirm that proceeding to the Committee of the whole House will await the report of the departmental committee.
Very well! That perhaps, helps. Please, proceed!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to read Standing Order No.111 because I think the perception that is created by that term “waive” is not the proper perception. Indeed, this matter will and must end up with the committee and we will have a committee report for this particular Bill. The problem was that we required two things out of the House for this process. One is to take both the First and Second Readings on the same day and two, the committee report is to be required before the Second Reading is taken. The committee is given ten days to do that work. Now we are waiving that process of giving the committee ten days. That is not to say that the committee is handling it. However, because we wanted to do the Second Reading within the same day, that is what brings this up. Mr. Speaker, Sir, with your permission if we could read Standing Order No.111---
Order, Mr. Abdikadir! With what you have said, the position is clear and I am sure Members understand that you want to take the First and Second Readings on the same day. That is understood. I think that is clear on record---
Mr. Speaker, Sir, then I second!
Put the Question! Sorry, propose the Question!
Order, Member for Ugenya! I thought you are more conversant than that, but maybe you are suffering from fatigue now!
Mrs. Rachel Shebesh, please, proceed!
Do not lecture!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on this one I will lecture. I rise to oppose. I am opposing even as a Member of the committee because as has been said clearly here, we should be sitting right now to look at this Bill. In case people have not looked at it, it needs a lot of consultations and consensus, otherwise we will be bringing debate on the Floor of this House that will be acrimonious. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am asking that this Bill be put in the Order Paper for tomorrow. We will have completed our work by end of today and we will be bringing the necessary amendments. I, therefore, oppose the waiving of this---
Order, Mrs. Shebesh! So that you are captured correctly by the HANSARD, amendments do not come in Second Reading. Amendments come in the Committee of the whole House. Maybe you need to understand that. That will not happen today. The Minister is not asking for that.
I understand, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have also said that there is going to be debate generated on these issues that need consensus and consultation. Therefore, my reason is because I believe that the committee must take into account the input that is being brought in by many of the organizations that are involved in drafting this as well as---
Order! The Speaker does not take sides, but the committee will surely take the concerns that are raised by Members in the Second Reading. Surely, Mrs. Shebesh, that will be accurate as now is different from tonight.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am sure you are not trying to persuade me to change my position. I think you are just trying to explain---
Order! The Speaker is impartial. I am just giving you directions as I understand the procedures to be.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have heard your directions but I still want to oppose.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to support this Motion Indeed, we can take the First and Second Readings of this Bill at the same time. The Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission Bill is not very new, as one Member said here before. Indeed, we have an Act of Parliament which is being aligned to the new Constitution. The Second Reading of a Bill deals with matters of policy that informs the Bill and that any consensus on amendments can be reached at as we reach the Third Reading. So, I do not see any contradiction at all with us taking the First and Second Readings of this Bill today as the committee and hon. Members continue consulting on possible amendments that could be introduced during the Third Reading. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to support.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand to oppose this Motion. This is because the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Bill is one of the cornerstones of integrity. We do not want to rush this. Looking at the television the other day, I can remember a Bill was passed by a Parliament in India and opposed by the people. We do not want to hear of somebody going on hunger strike to change this Bill again. I would rather that the committee is given time and we are given time until tomorrow. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, just to correct the perception that we are rushing this Bill; we are merely starting debate. This debate can go on as long as the House wants to debate this Bill. The committee has the time as much as they can finish their work and bring their suggestions here. So, we are not rushing. We are merely beginning. Allow us to begin debate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Member for Gwassi, I am a bit hesitant because the two of you appear to have chosen this to be your field day.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am just starting by commenting on what my neighbour has just said. I think my neighbour should be aware that we passed a Procedural Motion which directed us that we have to finish the Second Reading on this Bill today; that is if this Procedural Motion goes through. In that case, the only time we have to debate this Motion is basically today. For that reason, those who are questioning the rush are perfectly in order. I even told him but he did not want to accept. Thank God he has a few days to leave. He is going home!
Order, the Member for Gwassi! The Attorney-General is a Member of this House and you cannot impute improper motive on his part unless you bring a substantive Motion. So, you must withdraw those words that impute improper motive on the part of the Attorney-General.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I withdraw although with a lot of difficulty.
Order, the Member for Gwassi! You do not have a choice! I have just referred you to the Standing Orders. So, do not give any conditionalities, please.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, let me withdraw that and be a bit more general. The Executive owes this country an apology. Even as we approve this Procedural Motion, the Executive needs to own up. How come these Bills have all of a sudden found their way to Parliament within one or two days when we only have three days to go and yet we have been pleading with them to give us these Bills for one year.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the only reason I support is because the Executive has messed us up but as I sat here I thought that Kenyans out there are questioning; What is wrong with the leaders? They are singling out the Executive. They include Parliamentarians like me. That is why I feel that we do not have to keep Kenyans waiting any longer, otherwise and the Executive knows, I would have opposed this Procedural Motion because the Executive is becoming rogue. They are pushing us to legislate. I am in the sub- committee that is looking at this Bill that we are supposed to rush and it has numerous typo-errors. It is a terrible Bill and you cannot even imagine that it was done by people who have been drafting Bills in this country. So, grudgingly I accept that this Bill goes for Second Reading but the Executive should style up especially on the Bills that have 18 months or two years deadline. Please, do it differently this time round.
Otherwise, I support.
Hon. Members, taking into account what has transpired in the House this afternoon for which I thank you because it has taken a lot of industry to pilot through all this business in the time that we had this afternoon, we have determined administratively that we will provide all Members with a snack and/or refreshment at any time that they get hungry. There will be food for you.
Order, hon. Members! We are now in the Committee of the whole House.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:-
THAT, Clause 34 of the Bill be deleted and substituted with the following new clauses:-
I understand that there is a further amendment but the Mover, Mr. Isaac Ruto is not here. So, I will now propose the Question.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT Clause 36 of the Bill be amended- (a) in sub-clause (4) by inserting the word “non-renewable” after the words “hold office for a”; and (b) by inserting the following new sub-clause after sub-clause (5)- “(6) A person shall not qualify for appointment under this section unless the person has met the requirement of Chapter Six of the Constitution”. The reason for this is to introduce the requirement in sub-clause 6 for a chairperson or a member of the tribunal to be a person who satisfies the requirements of Chapter Six of the Constitution.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 37 of the Bill be amended by deleting sub-clause (2) and substituting therefor the following new sub-clause-
“(2) Notwithstanding sub-section (1), the Tribunal shall not hear or determine a dispute under paragraphs (a), (b), (c) or (e) unless the dispute has been heard and determined by the internal political party dispute resolution mechanisms”
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 38 of the Bill be amended- (a) in sub-section (2), by inserting the words “and on points of law to both the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court” after the words “points of law and facts.” (b) by deleting sub-clause (3); and (c) by deleting sub-clause (5) and substituting the following new sub- clauses- “(5) The Tribunal shall apply the rules of evidence and procedure under the Evidence Act and the Civil Procedure Act with the necessary modifications while ensuring that its proceedings do not give undue regard to procedural technicalities.”
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, the purpose of this amendment is to ensure that in Sub-clause 2, we can allow for appeal not just to the High Court, but also to the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:-
THAT, Clause 41 of the Bill be amended in sub-clause (1) by inserting the words “to the Judiciary Fund” after the words “allocated by the National Assembly.”
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, the justification for this amendment is that since we have established a Judiciary Fund and the Constitution provides in Article 169(1) (D) that it is part of the Judiciary, we would expect the Tribunal to source its funding from the Judiciary Fund.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:-
THAT, Clause 42 of the Bill be amended- (a) in paragraph (b) of sub-clause (3) by deleting the words “jointly and severally” after the words “deemed to have” (b) by inserting the following new sub-clause after sub-clause (5)- “(6) Notwithstanding sub-clause (5), a person who is a member of a political party that has been suspended and is a member of Parliament or of a county assembly, shall continue as a member of Parliament or of the county assembly for the unexpired term. (7) The Registrar or an employee of the Office of the Registrar of Political Parties commits an offence where the Registrar or the employee of the Office of Political Parties knowingly subverts the objectives of the Constitution and of this Act”.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, the chief reason for this amendment is to ensure that in Sub-clause 7 we introduce an offence where the Registrar or employee of the Office of the Registrar knowingly subverts the objectives of the Constitution or the Act.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:-
THAT, Clause 43 of the Bill be deleted and substituted with the following new clause-
“43. A person convicted of an offence under this Act for which no penalty is prescribed shall be liable, on conviction, to a fine of not less than one million shillings or to a term of imprisonment of not less than two years or to both”.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, we are just trying to enhance the general penalty that should be provided on the basis of conviction.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:-
THAT, Clause 46 of the Bill be amended by deleting sub-clause (2) and substituting therefor the following new sub-clause-
“(2) In particular and without prejudice to the generality of the power conferred by sub-section (1), the Registrar may make Regulations- (a) prescribing the manner of registration of political parties; (b) regulating the activities of political parties that are registered under this Act as provided under the Act; (c) regulating or restricting the use of changes of names, symbols or colours of political parties; (d) prescribing the forms which may be used for carrying out the provisions of this Act; (e) for securing the submission, to the Registrar, of the audited accounts and financial accounts relating to the assets and liabilities, income and expenditure of political parties; (f) prescribing the fees in respect of anything to be done under this Act and (g) requiring the submission, to the Registrar, of annul or other periodical returns relating the constitution, objects and membership of political parties. Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, this amendment is deleting Sub-clause 2 and inserting a new sub-clause whose rationalization is really in matters which the Registrar may make regulations.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:-
THAT, Clause 48 of the Bill be amended- (a) in sub-clause (1)- (i) in paragraph (c) by inserting the words “and their registered members” after the words “the register of Political Parties”; (ii) by deleting paragraph (d) and substituting therefor the following new paragraphs- “(d) The Registrar of Political Parties holding office immediately before the commencement of this Act shall continue to hold office as the Registrar of Political Parties under this Act until a Registrar is appointed under this Act. (da) The chairperson and members of the Tribunal appointed under the repealed Act continue to hold office for their unexpired term”. (b) by deleting sub-clause (2); and (c) by deleting sub-clause (3) and substituting therefor the following new sub-clause- “(3) Where this Act requires a nomination or appointment to be made by the President, until after the first general elections held under the Constitution, the President shall, as provided in the Constitution, nominate or appoint a person after consultation with the Prime Minister.”
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, the chief reason for this amendment is to save and transit the person who is currently holding the Registrar until the appointment of the new Registrar. The second amendment is also to save and transit the term of the members of the Tribunal who are proposed to serve for their unexpired term.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new Clause after Clause 31-
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise in support of this amendment. It is necessary that the Office of the Registrar be audited to ensure that it uses public money in accordance with the rules and regulations and also in accordance with our Constitution. Therefore, this is a very important clause that brings the office under the scrutiny of the Controller and Auditor-General.
I beg to support.
I understand, Mr. Minister and the Chair of the Committee that there are amendments proposed by the two parties which overlap on several respects. Have you been able to agree on which ones will go?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, we have actually agreed and the Clerk is well aware of our agreement.
That the Committee prosecutes the matter.
Order! Then, Mr. Minister, withdraw your proposed amendments to Clause 34(A) and (B).
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, on account of the more elaborate proposals by the Committee, which I salute, I would like to withdraw my proposals on New Clause 34 (A) and (B) on pages 2685 and 2686.
Very well! Those proposals remain withdrawn.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman sir, I beg to move that the Bill be amended by inserting the following new Clause after Clause 34-
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, we are bringing this new clause to ensure that the new Sixth Schedule that provides for the procedure for the appointment of the Registrar and the Assistant Registrar of Political Parties is anchored in the Bill.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I support this new Clause 34(A). It is detailing the manner in which the Registrar and the Assistant Registrars will be appointed. You will recall that the current Registrar was appointed by the Interim Independent Electoral Commission (IIEC). This is a very important office. We need to have clear procedures on how the holders of office are appointed in order to enhance the independence of that office. I beg to support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move that the Bill be amended by inserting the following new Clause after Clause 34A-
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I will essentially support this new insertion. However, one thing that is finding its way in many of these legislations, and which we must think about carefully - and this may be covered in the regulations or by subsequent considerations - is what appears on 34 B as read: (i) The Registrar or an Assistant Registrar may be removed from office only on grounds of non-compliance of Chapter 6 of the Constitution.
If you look at Chapter 6 of the Constitution, it is very difficult to collect and gather what constitutes a violation other than on two grounds; one, when somebody has been removed from office or dismissed from office. However, the entire provisions found in Chapter 6 have many principles and directions which have been given, and which do not necessarily constitute a violation that would bar somebody from assuming office. My fear is that someone can come with a general formulation that you did not sleep at home last night and, therefore, you are not behaving the way you should behave and, therefore, making that a violation. This is something that needs to be set out more specifically so that when you cannot assume office because of violation of Chapter 6, it is on grounds that are evident and crystal clear and you can meet the grounds, if at all, you want to challenge them. The Chairman of the Committee should look at this again and guide us in the future. During the discussion on the Bill that is coming in subsequent Order, you will realize that a lot of this can be used to target those who assume elective office. They can be told that because they violated Chapter 6 in general, they cannot stand for office. I think that is something we should look at.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. I would like to ask hon. Ekwe Ethuro to inform me what he means in respect of his comments that he does not want us to go the Miguna Miguna way. Is that parliamentary? Is it in order? If it is, could he explain which way is that because I am not aware of it?
Mr. Shakeel, if you stand on a point of order, you are the one that raises the point of order. You are the one who suggests what is not in order.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I said that I do not think it is in order for my colleague to mention the “Miguna Miguna way”, without explaining what it is.
Hon. Ethuro, perhaps, it is not clearer to you.
Thank you Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. You know that our Standing Orders do not compel us to substantiate the obvious. It is in the public records, unless the Member was in Kisumu City. Mr. Miguna Miguna, who worked in the Office of the Prime Minister, has even gone to court to say that he was given a letter of termination---
Hon. Ethuro, the Chair is satisfied. Anybody else who would like to contribute? Ms. Karua.
I think hon. Shakeel is also satisfied.
Order! Ms. Karua.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. I beg to support the inclusion of new Clause 34(b). I want to allay the fears of those who, like my learned friend has said, feel that talking of a serious violation of the Constitution is nebulous. It may be so, but because the matter would be heard by a Tribunal which is essentially a court--- It would be seized of the matter and it would be able to conclude what is a serious violation. What if the Registrar acts contrary to the Constitution, for instance, in the distribution of money or in the registration of political parties? That Tribunal would be able to assess whether that behavior amounts to a serious violation of the Constitution. I am looking at this. This enhances, not just the independence of the Registrar, but the duty bestowed on the Registrar to faithfully follow the law and the Constitution of Kenya, knowing that Kenyans are not helpless. Should the Registrar deviate, then Kenyans have a red card to show the Registrar. I support this Section because it enhances accountability.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, while I support this proposal from the Committee, I would like to know - probably from the Committee Chairman, if he could shed more light - whether somebody who is facing criminal charges can also be removed from office on those grounds. That is because it is not included here.
Hon. Ethuro do you have anything to say to that? The Minister for Lands.
I think the general position is that there is a presumption of innocence that is spelt out in the Constitution. You will find that in a lot of legislation, including the Constitution, it will look at a conviction, rather than at a point when you are being charged. However, if you look at the Public Officer Ethics Act, it says that the moment you are charged, you have to step aside or be interdicted. Some steps are taken. All that is to ensure that the doctrine of the presumption of innocence is kept running throughout, until there is a conviction. That is why even when somebody is convicted of a criminal offence whose sentence runs for more than six months, if you are a Member of Parliament, you are allowed until you appeal to the highest court in the land before any steps can be taken. I think this is good.
Dr. Kones, are you satisfied? I will give the Chair of the Committee an opportunity to respond also.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I want to thank the Front Bench for coming to my aid as would be expected. I think it has been explained; the circumstances in which they are charged. I think there was another matter raised by Mr. Orengo which I felt needs to be addressed, so that all other hon. Members who may be entertaining such thoughts, can be very clear. Yes, the reason why we are introducing it and we have done it literally across the board is still broad because we really want the spirit and the letter of the Constitution to be embodied in subsequent legislation. Secondly, on this particular one, Clause 34B (2) has also provided a process in which a person desirous to remove the registrar or the assistant registrar can actually petition. In that petition, you will have to come up with grounds on which you want that office holder to be removed. In addition to that is what Ms. Karua has explained. There will be a tribunal set up, and it will look into the merit of the arguments that have been petitioned.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, while I do not dispute what the Chairman of the committee is saying, could he then be able to tell us the difference between 34B(1)(a) and (b)? That is because (a) talks of serious violation of the Constitution or of this Act and (b) is a mere repetition of the Constitution and therefore, becomes superfluous, like Mr. Orengo did say earlier on.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, this is very interesting because we are used to posing questions to the Executive but now, they are posing them to us. But that is why we have a Parliament. First, if you look at (a), it is talking of the entire document called the Constitution. So, any breach of that part makes you equally liable. But (b) is more specific because we are talking about Chapter 6 which is the integrity test. So, every person holding a State office must subscribe to that chapter.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I support the new Clause, only that I want some clarification on Clause 34B(7) which says:- “A person who is suspended under this Section shall continue while on suspension to receive half salary and other remunerations.” I am aware of so many civil servants who are on suspension and they seem to be on suspension until Jesus comes back. I hope there is a time limitation on the suspension.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, that is a very useful insight; that the suspension should not be open-ended; it must be terminated. I must admit we did not think about that. But we expect that general common sense will prevail. If you are suspended and interdicted, like the example Dr. Kones gave, if you are charged, then you are automatically suspended. Then you cannot lift that period until the case is actually determined. So, it depends on the scenario that led to the suspension.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:-
THAT, the First Schedule be amended- (a) in sub-paragraph (c) of paragraph 7 by inserting the words “influence peddling” after the words “engage in”; (b) by deleting sub-paragraph (f) and substituting therefor the following paragraph- “(f) advocate hatred that constitutes ethnic incitement, vilification of others or incitement to cause harm”; (c) by inserting the following new sub-paragraph after sub-paragraph (h)- “(i) use state resources for partisan campaigns”. Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, in doing so - and the political party barons need to hear this - we are trying to insert the words “influence peddling” after the words “engage in” for the simple reason that we would not like political parties or any other person to influence that particular procedure. Secondly, in the new sub-paragraph “h” we are intending to curb the use of State resources in partisan campaigns, which is one issue that we have all been grappling with for a very long time. I think this is the opportunity to correct that.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move:-
THAT, the Second Schedule be amended- (a) by deleting paragraph 6; (b) in sub-paragraph (b) of paragraph 11 by deleting the words “the periodic audit” appearing at the start of the paragraph and substituting therefor the words “the annual statutory and other audits” (c) by deleting paragraph 16 and substituting therefor the following new paragraph- “16. The officials of a party shall be authorized to sign on behalf of the party- (a) documents presented to the Registrar including membership register, mergers and other reports to the Registrar; (b) the accounts of the party and bank accounts; (c) audited annual accounts and financial statements; (d) any report or document of the party required under this Act or any other written law; (e) the nomination certificates for any nomination or election of a member of the political party”; and (d) by deleting paragraph 22 and substituting therefor the following new clause- “22. Rules for mergers including- (a) the circumstances and criteria for mergers; (b) the procedure and guidelines for such mergers as approved by an annual general meeting of the political party”. Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, if you look at what we are proposing, the deletion of Paragraph 6, in particular, the Committee was of the view that it would be too onerous to demand political parties to have offices established in every county throughout the country. Let it really be the strength of the party. If they cannot do it, they know the consequences; they may not get representation from those particular areas, rather than making it a legal requirement.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I rise to support the amendment, but to express a concern that we are merely saying “officials of a party shall be authorized”. We know that there are officials who are senior and there are officials who are in the grassroots. Which officials of the party shall be authorized to sign? I feel that we should be particular and I am now challenging the Minister - because he does not need notice to move an amendment - that we should be specific and give it to the chairperson of the party, the secretary-general or the authorized signatories of the party, so that we do not just say “officials”. If we say “authorized signatories”, it means the party has minutes authorizing those people to sign. So, I am actually suggesting that we should say “authorized signatory” because in a branch, it will not be the secretary-general. It will be the chairman of the branch and the secretary. So, we should just say: “Authorized signatories of the party.”
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I accept the proposal and the amendment so that it should read:”the authorized signatories of the party shall sign on behalf of the party.”
Could someone put that in writing?
I will write it down, although Ms. Karua can also help me with that. I will write it down.
I need to have it before I can put the question. Is there anyone who wants to make any contribution on this? Yes, Mr. Bett!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, on “d” I agree with the proposal by Ms. Karua, which has been supported by the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs. I think there is a typing error under “d”; where it says “22”, I think it is “rules for mergers included”. I hope the Chair of the Committee is listening.
Could the Minister note that, so that he can also introduce that amendment?
I wonder why Minister Kimunya wants to interrupt me.
Hon. Kimunya, please, do not interrupt your colleague. Let him make his contribution. Do you want to give a contribution? Go ahead.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I support the amendment by the Committee, and, obviously, the further suggestion by the hon. Karua. Indeed, in this same Committee, we passed amendments that further refine the definition of political party officials to actually mean that it is the chairperson and the secretary-general. If we look at it from that wider definition, then it is only fair that we amend the Schedule to accord with the rest of the Bill. These were the amendments that were proposed by the Minister and the Committee. They actually stated the contact persons shall be the chairperson, and the secretary-general. So, I support that we have that done. I hope the Minister and Ms. Karua will bring some amendments, so that we can pass them.
Minister, we want to see your proposed amendments. Hon. Ethuro, as I look at the amendments that have been submitted, go on.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I just wanted to agree with hon. Kimunya; indeed, we proposed amendments. I do not have my copy here. We said that officials of the party should refer to the chairperson and the secretary-general. What hon. Karua wants now is to include the words that give authority to officials in paragraph 16. So, we need to relate the officials we designated to authorised officials.
Order! Minister, we need to go through methodically and logically. Where do you put this, so that we can give the others an opportunity to comment? We cannot proceed incoherently.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I am proposing that the Second Schedule be further amended in part “c” under 16; where it says “the officials of a party”; we delete all the words all the way to the word “to” and then replace them with the words “the authorised officials of party shall sign on behalf of the party”. The authority will be given by the party in its Constitution and rules to the Registrar.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. I agree with the Minister. I just want him to be very clear. Since the amendment was not on the Order Paper, he may wish to read it out.
Well, I will read it because I have received it here. Members, please, note, page 2693. If you were to the listen to the Chair, then you would not get lost.
It says under “c”, “by deleting paragraph 16 and substituting therefor the following new paragraph”. “16. The authorized officials of the party shall sign on behalf of the party”. Is that correct, Mr. Minister? Does that remove doubts now, hon. Ethuro?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, it is clear except that once you insert the word “authorised” between “the “ and the “official” you do not need to paraphrase the rest.
Hon. Bett, your comment on the typing error can be cleared without further amendments.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I still want some clarification from the Chairman.
So that we can be in tandem, I want propose the amendment to the amendment. Then, I will invite you to make your comments.
Mr. Chairman, Sir, I just wanted a clarification on part “d”, where the Chairman is deleting the word “coalitions”.
Okay; let us do away with the amendments and then we will come back to that.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT the Bill be amended by deleting the Third Schedule.
The reason is that it has been overtaken by events. The Committee proposed deletion of Clause 10 on coalition---
Order, hon. Ethuro! Hon. Kones, what is it that you are approaching the Chair about, after the passage. What is it? I will give you the opportunity to say it. Just say what you wanted to say.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I stood up and you told me to wait until you were through with part “c”. I just wanted a clarification on the deletion of the word “coalitions” as proposed by the Chairman.
That was explained. Had you been listening you would have risen on that issue. It was explained by more than one Member.
Today; this afternoon in my own hearing.
I was not here.
That is why you should have been here.
Chairman, you may now continue.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, we are withdrawing that amendment because it was in the light of the other amendment we had proposed to Clause 10, which this House disposed of.
So, the proposed amendment to Third Schedule is withdrawn.
Once again, on the New Fourth Schedule, there have been proposals for amendments that overlap. Hon. Minister, do I understand that you and the Committee have agreed?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, we have agreed in the spirit of democracy that I withdraw my amendments and they push theirs.
So, can you formally withdraw?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I formally withdraw my amendments.
For the record, the Minister’s proposed amendments have been withdrawn. So, hon. Ethuro, it is your turn.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I wish to agree with the Minister that these amendments are withdrawn, not just because of democracy, but because ours were more comprehensive. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move:- That, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new Schedule-
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I support the amendment. It is important that the holder of this important office is sworn into office and, therefore, realizes the gravity of the job before him. I support.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I do not know how to put it, but I was just trying to read through the oath and I thought that there is a typographical error on the second last line that starts “impartially and to the best of my ability discharge the trust and perform the functions and exercise the powers”.
Yes, there is a typographical error. That will be taken care of. There is provision in law for sorting that out.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:-
That, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new Schedule-
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:- THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new Schedule-
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I had an amendment to propose, so that the Bill may not lie about the Title, but considering the progress made, I withdraw the amendment.
Mr. Temporary Deputy, Chairman, Sir, I beg to move that the Committee doth report to the House its consideration of The Political Parties Bill, Bill No.20 of 2011, and its approval thereof with amendments.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that a Committee of the Whole House has considered The Political Parties Bill, Bill No.20 of 2011, and approved the same with amendments.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I rise under the Standing Order No.119 (2) to move an amendment to the Report by the Committee of the Whole House. I beg to move:- THAT, the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report, subject to the re-committal of the Bill in respect of Clause 14 to the Committee of the Whole House.
Hon. Members, the point of order by Dr. Eseli means that if it carries, we will go back to the Committee of the Whole House on that Clause.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I need to explain this further, so that I can carry the House to understand my thinking on this. That particular clause is the one that we amended and removed the 14 days notice. We said that you can just give notice and switch parties immediately. That sword cuts both ways. You could have your nomination papers well laid out and as you go to present your papers, somebody tells you that your supporters have actually defected that very day. So, it is dangerous to all of us.
Secondly, the Registrar of Political Parties keeps a register. If we allow the provision for no notice of movement, this register will not be useful to the Registrar. Already in the current Act, where there is notice of 30 days, the Registrar has a problem maintaining that register because of the frequent defections. If we have no notice of movement at all, the Registrar will have a bigger problem. Therefore, I beg all hon. Members to look at this provision from both sides. If we do not do so and instead stick to the amendment that was brought by Dr. Nuh, we will have created a bigger problem than that we are seeking to solve. We need to level our thinking, look at it critically and see whether if we allow people to change parties without notice, we will have done justice to this country’s political system or we will have messed it up.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I believe that this is something we need to approach with very sober minds. We should not consider political party affiliations or anything of that sort. This is about the Political Parties Registry that we are setting up. We are saying that you should actually deposit lists of your party membership with the Registrar. If we do not remove that amendment, it will mean that the Register is null and void. It is of no use at all because you can be in one party this afternoon, move to another party tomorrow morning and move yet to another party in the following day. So, there will be no need to keep a register.
Hon. Members, do not look at it that it is Dr. Eseli saying it, in case you do not like Dr. Eseli. Look at it like it is Kenyans speaking to you, through Dr. Eseli.
With those remarks, I beg to move.
Dr. Eseli, could you indicate whether you have a Seconder?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, hon. Martha Karua will second the Motion.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I do not think hon. Eseli is doing justice to the amendment. Is he in order to mislead the House that, indeed, we have removed the Clause which states that when someone is quitting a party, he or she will give notice? We only removed the timeline. The notice is there. In fact, we said “upon written notice”. So, hon. Eseli is not in order to mislead the House by saying that we have removed the Clause requiring a member to give notice of quitting a party.
Hon. Nuh, you will have time to respond and put those issues into perspective. So, keep your cool.
Yes, hon. Martha Karua!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to agree with Dr. Eseli, and go further and say that there are two issues with Clause 14, which require re- committal to the Committee of the whole House. As a Committee, we had asked the secretariat to save two Clauses in the Political Parties Bill, 2007, until the end of this Parliament. These were Clauses 17 and 30. They said that Clause 30 omitted Clause 17 and we did not realise that as we were going through the Bill. The object of saving Clauses 17 and 30 was to take care of the realities in this House. This House is made up of political parties which came together to support a presidential candidate. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the parties that support PNU, and which continue to articulate themselves as independent parties, will be offending the Act, if Clause 17(4)(a) in particular is not saved. In the current Bill, this comes under Clause 14. If this provision is not saved, on either side of the Coalition Government, there will be people directly affected because there are political parties on both sides. On the Clause on notice to quit, which Dr. Eseli articulated, notice is necessary. If not 14 days, some days are necessary. I am asking hon. Members to picture a scenario where you are before the electoral body presenting your nomination papers, the requisite number of people having signed for you. Then suddenly, people just walk in there and say: “we withdraw our signatures. We have now moved to another party”. There will be a written notice but because no time is stipulated, you will be found to have not complied. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, what we are saying is that we did not give these Clauses enough thought, and that also the secretariat omitted one Clause. We now cannot talk of the secretariat because we also did not see it when we were considering the Bill during the Committee Stage. These are issues which need re-committal. With those remarks, I beg to second.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have listened to hon. Eseli, and I want to categorically oppose this Motion.
The purpose of pushing a Bill through the First Reading, the Second Reading and the Committee Stage is so that we debate, listen to each other and convince each other. Even if one is not convinced, once the question is put and the “Ayes” have it, we expect the “Noes” to support the Ayes. At that stage, they are supposed to have been convinced to the other side. So, it is late for hon. Eseli to bring forth that argument at this stage. It is, maybe, mischievous. Why did he not bring it at the beginning? I want to indicate that, as a House---
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the hon. Member in order to say that my interjection is mischievous when it is actually provided for in the Standing Order? Under Standing Order No.119 (2); it is specifically allowed to remedy a situation that might have arisen through an oversight by the House.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member did not listen well. I said that it could be mischievous. It is for him to confirm whether it was mischievous or not.
What I am saying is that this House has sat. We even ended up deferring the last Committee of the whole House session to today. For the hon. Member to take us back to start from square one is taking this House for granted. Therefore, I request my colleagues to consider this matter, so that we adopt the Report of the Committee of the whole House as it is.
With those remarks I beg to oppose.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to oppose the Motion by Dr. Eseli. I was here throughout the session of the Committee of the whole House. I listened to the deliberations. For the benefit of the hon. Members who may not have been here, and who may be persuaded differently, Clause 14 was debated at length. There are two issues which the Mover and the Seconder of this Motion have mentioned. I would like to clarify what happened. On the issue of saving the old Clause 17, which is basically to allow members who are in a coalition arrangement to promote the activities of the parties within the coalition, indeed, an amendment was brought to Clause 10 by hon. Njeru Githae. The amendment was moved but the Committee said that there were no coalitions. We brought back coalitions because Clause 14 which was proposed by the Committee had left out that bit. This was re-introduced by hon. Githae through an amendment which said that the limitation on the promotion of activities of a party within a coalition shall not apply to members in a coalition. So, that was already said and we do not need to go back to reintroduce a matter that has already been sorted out. On the second matter that was introduced to this House as an amendment by Dr. Nuh, indeed, there is a notice required for a member to quit or resign from a political party. The spirit of the amendment, as I got it and as we discussed on the Floor of this House was that, once a member has decided they are resigning from a political party--- The amendment that had been brought by the Committee was basically saying that once you give that notice, it will not take effect until after 14 days. The issue was, once somebody has decided they do not want to be in a political party, you cannot force them by law to continue belonging to that political party because that goes contrary to the Constitution which gives freedom of association. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, that was the spirit of that amendment. Once a person has decided they are not a member of a political party, give them the freedom to go. That does not mean that they will be allowed to go to other parties because there are other provisions within the Constitution and there will be provisions within the electoral laws and political parties in terms of what they can do or what they cannot do. We must look at it, not just in the context of the example that has been given, that on the election day or nomination day, a member could be bought off and he resigns. Take the case of a member dying on the nomination day. Do you postpone their death for 14 days and recognize that they are still members and they have not died? Let us open up our minds and remember what we should be looking at in terms of the actions that were done by a member when he was a member of the political party. Such actions will continue to be binding on him so long as he was a member of the political party at that point. But once a person has resigned, and supposing that member is the chairman, do you then continue having them in the bank, signing cheques for 14 days because he is bound by law to continue being a member of the party? Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think that is the spirit of the discussion. So our reopening of this Clause 14 will not be adding value. With so much business that we have to conduct today and in the next few days, I would urge Members that let us continue with the matter as it is. Let us look at the Act when fully finalized and we can still come back here for an amendment, should the need so arise, once we have seen the full implication of all these amendments that were brought by the Committee. I can confirm to you that all these amendments were brought in good faith and address the fears that have been raised by the two Members who moved and seconded. With those words, I beg to oppose the move to get the matter back to the Committee.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to be very precise and brief because I do not want this to consume so much time. I want to oppose this amendment. This is basically for one reason; the scenario being portrayed here, that once a Member of Parliament has presented his nomination certificate with a list, a member would purport that he has resigned from the party does not apply. This is because the member is not resigning on the spot. We said that such notification should be given to the Registrar. The Registrar---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir,
Order, Dr. Eseli! You will allow Dr. Nuh to continue to speak!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the notification to the Registrar would also take some time, at whatever time it is. I would want to urge Members that there is no mischief in this amendment to remove the clause for some time limit to be put. As Mr. Kimunya has put it, once I have decided to quit a party, why would you want to restrain me in law to keep me in that party for 14 days or even 24 hours? Once a member has decided, he has made it explicit within his mind; he must have searched his or her soul for all that long. Ms. Martha and others who are party leaders should not curtail this freedom that has been enshrined within the Constitution.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also rise to very strongly oppose the amendment by Dr. Eseli. I want to indicate that this Motion is neither timely nor meritorious. I recall that this House discussed Clause 14 and overwhelmingly supported it. A few minutes ago the Speaker of this House okayed the support that was given by this House on Clause 14. It is important that we should not try to destroy the spirit and letter of the Political Parties Act. We should retain it for the well being of the political parties in this country. With those few remarks and without hesitation, I oppose this Motion.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is a really important point. We need to find a balance. I am not without sympathy with what Dr. Eseli is saying. But I think in the context of the Constitution, where there is freedom of association which is critical that you have the right to associate, if we are going to limit that right, then it must be within Article 24 which lays down the basis for limitation of any rights under the Constitution. This is a Constitution that is very strong on rights and liberties. I find the argument very persuasive, but to limit the right of association unnecessarily would go against the grain of the Constitution. To that effect, once I have elected to resign from a political party, there should be no further discussion on that matter because I am exercising my freedom of association. We have passed the stage where KANU was mother and father. You can be sired by any of the political parties if you so wish. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think we need to get that balance. I think the confusion is what the Political Parties Bill is contemplating. I think you can actually put those provisions in quite a different statute. However, when it comes to a political party, it revolves around the issue of the freedom of association. I am convinced that to limit that right will go against everything that I have fought for in this country because I cannot be told that for any extra day, if I wish to move out of any political party or any society or tribunal, there should be any barriers. At a certain point, when it comes to the electoral law, the fears of Dr. Eseli will be addressed adequately. I beg to oppose.
Order, hon. Members! I now want to put the question. You better be clear; if the question that I am going to put carries, it means we shall go back to the Committee of the Whole House stage for this one clause. If it does not carry, it will mean we will conclude the Committee of the Whole House.
I will now put the question on the original motion.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that The Political Parties Bill be now read the Third Time.
(Mr. Kimunya) seconded.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just want to say that as the Bill has passed that hon. Members will regret having passed it without further consideration of Clause 14. I also want to say that even as we pass this Bill, it is unfortunate that it was guided by self-interest and not by national interest.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I congratulate the House for passing this Bill. We should do everything possible to make sure that the new dispensation--- This is because the provisions in this Bill are in light of the new Constitution. The old Bill was based on an old Constitution which did not enlarge the democratic space. But more importantly - and I think what Ms. Karua is saying is important - is that for the first time in our history, political parties will become organs of the Government. Political Parties will be audited by the Auditor-General and will be subject to many other principles that are set out in the Constitution. I appeal to this House that, in future, if we continue to run political parties the way they are presently and the way they were in the past, then the new democratic dispensation will just be like an animal farm. I plead with hon. Members that we take political parties seriously. Col. Gadaffi tried to have a no-party system and Uganda tried the same but it did not work. So, there is no other democracy which is not party-based that really works. It all works when there is order and discipline within political parties. I pray that this new spirit should be carried through.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to congratulate the House for the amendments and the scrutiny that this Bill has gone through. It is one thing to attract members but it is another thing to be able to retain the same Members through a democratic process or mechanisms within the party. The amendments that have been made by hon. Members have addressed these issues very seriously. If those amendments had not been made, some of us would not have been in this House today because of the mischief of the big boys in the political parties.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I welcome the passing of this Bill, I think it is important to take cognizance of the fact that we now have a weaker Bill than what we had before. Certainly, this has been necessitated by the political atmosphere prevailing now. I believe that at an opportune time, this House or another House will pass a Bill that ensures that there is discipline within political parties.
Order, Mr. Kioni! Hon. Members, on a serious note this is the Third Reading. We are not re-opening debate. You just make wrap-up points, then we continue.
Proceed, Mr. Kioni!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is exactly what I was doing. Looking at a similar Bill done by our colleagues in India, you cannot even vote against a position held by a whip. That may sound like we are limiting the Members’ freedom but it is important that even parties have some form of discipline because it is by doing so that you end up with better governance. As it is, I am happy that we have a Bill to serve us for the time being as we navigate through the turmoil or turbulence that now prevails in our country.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I congratulate the Minister for having been able to push this Bill through. However, it is important for us to know that as much as we have got the document now, what we fought for 10, 15 or 20 years ago was a battle in futility. In the first place, even the Political Parties Act that we have would have served us even in a better way than what we have passed here today. It is also important for Kenyans to know that through this Act, we have now legitimized political tourism. You can now hope and jump from one party to another.
Lastly, after elections, Kenyans should be ready for coalitions even more than even the experts of coalitions like Israel and other democracies.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would sincerely like to thank the Minister and his personnel as well as the task forces including the hon. Justice Ransley Task Force, which has made it possible to stand here this afternoon to second this very crucial law for our country.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also want to pay special tribute to the Constitutional Implementation Commission (CIC) and the office of the Attorney-General. You will recall that even long before the promulgation of the Constitution, the Ransely Task Force had already been appointed. However, upon the appointment of the CIC, they felt that they needed to go round the country to collect comments and engage in public participation. I think it is essential the country recognizes the role that is being played by that Commission.
Article 245 of the Constitution requires this country to appoint an Inspector- General and this law that Mr. Saitoti has so ably put forth will facilitate the appointment of this critical office for our country. I do not need to remind this House of the challenges that it has faced. There have been challenges of extra-judicial killings and Members of Parliament, time and again, have stood up on points of order and on urgent Motions on this matter. Time has come for a law like this to be passed. You will recollect that time and again, the issue of police recruitment has engaged this country. There have been challenges on how recruitment was being carried out. But above all, you are aware of the challenges that the police have had on allegations of corruption. Time and again, the existing police force has appeared top on the list of corrupt and unfriendly institutions. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, you will also recall - because I know you were there - that during the election of 2002 when NARC came to power, Kenyans celebrated so heavily that they could even arrest police officers who were demanding bribes. Unfortunately, the country has slipped backwards in this area. Above all, let me remind the House that the performance of the police during the election of 2007 was as serious challenge to law and order. You recall the case of Mr. Kirui that went to court and even the International Criminal Court (ICC) has demanded for that file in the Hague and it will be sent there. You also recall that a former Commissioner of Police is one of the suspects facing the ICC proceedings. These are not idle issues but critical issues for this country. Allow me to say that this country will hold elections in the course of the next one year or so and I want to assure the public that there will be no idea of postponing elections or changing anything. In order to conduct transparent elections a police force that can be respected, recognized, loved and above all be obeyed is crucial. As you may recall, recently, this House approved the appointment of the first ever Director of Public Prosecutions; the only one, as far as I know, outside South Africa, who enjoys independence and security of tenure. However, his work could be very difficult if not impossible unless we have an investigation arm for the country that can be able to collect evidence in a credible manner and present that evidence including forensic evidence in a manner that satisfies our criminal justice system. Therefore, since the Minister has taken the House through express provisions in the Bill, I just want to emphasize Part IV on the Directorate of Criminal Investigation. Hon. Members will find this on page 757 of the Bill. We are legislating on this very important Criminal Investigation Directorate and giving it functions which include financial autonomy. The other one which I want to draw the attention of the House is the Sixth Schedule on page 824. This schedule requires very careful attention because it is a schedule under Clause 61(2) on conditions as to the use of force. Mr. Orengo has kept on reminding us that the legal and political theory of our new Constitution is freedom, equality and above all protection of human rights. Therefore, this Sixth Schedule is a matter that must be looked at very carefully so that we can audit it and through the wisdom of this House improve on it, so that the police understand the limitations as they are under law, and the conditions upon which they cannot use force. We will not want, as a country ever again, to have somebody like Prof. Alston coming to Kenya to tell us what to do with our citizens, particularly when the allegations relate to the killings and elimination of our citizens. Therefore, this Schedule is very fundamental and it is so critical that hon. Members should look at.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, there are a number of other Schedules. For example, there is the issue of “Superiors” on page 827. I have noticed in the police force people who think that you can always cite “superior orders” as protection for using firearms to shoot Kenyans, like that man who was taken to court in the Kirui case, using a gun and a boot bought by taxes to shoot and kick a Kenyan. It is unfortunate. It is because of faulty investigations that the case took the turn that it did. We have even gone further in these recommendations, and I want to draw hon. Members’ attention to page 829, that is, matters to be included in the rules of a police association---- We want their welfare to be protected and for them to know that they are Kenyans and are entitled to good welfare, but they must also respect the rights of Kenyans.
On 830 you will find offences against discipline. This is also another area that I recommend this House to look at very carefully to ensure that they are audited as regulations to reflect the actual powers of the police.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, again, allow me to refer to the Fifth Schedule, under Clause 59, which is Arrest and Detention Rules, which is critical. You will find a woman who has been molested or beaten up by her husband in some parts of this country and even in the City; when she calls the police, she is told called that; that is a “dome.” We want to make sure that the arrest and detention rules are understood by this House, as it passes this law. Therefore, the Schedule says:- “In the performance of the functions and exercise of the powers of arrest and detention set out in the Constitution and in this Act or any other law, a police officer shall carry out an arrest and detention only as provided for in the law.”
In fact, if the House deemed it fit, we could even repeat them here, so that they are clear as to what is required. Allow me to refer you to page 815 where you will find Clause 132. It says:- “The Inspector-General shall put in place a system of ensuring continuous and sustainable police reforms with regard to service operation matters.”
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, these are fundamental clauses and I think that this is an historical moment, in an effort to reform our police.
Without much further ado, I recommend this Bill to the House and beg to second.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Will I be in order to request that the time of contribution be reduced to a maximum of five minutes because of the interest we have in this matter?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have decided to stay here so that we can scrutinize these Bills and deliberate on them. To say that we can deliberate for five minutes would be too short time. I would propose that we do it for ten minutes.
Let us first see the level of interest and then we can cross that bridge when we get there.
Thank you Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to support this long awaited Bill. I want to congratulate Kenyans for passing the Constitution. I honestly believe that without the command of the Constitution, the Government was not going to bring this Bill. One can even see that it has even come towards the tail end. The Ransley Commission was set up before the Constitution was passed. Nothing stopped the Government from bringing the Bill then. Nothing stopped them from bringing it a day after the Constitution was passed. The Government has dragged its feet on police reforms and that is why I salute Kenyans for passing the Constitution which has compelled the Government to finally lay the Bill on the Table of the House. The Bill is well thought out. I have gone through it and I think it is revolutionary. For the first time, it is accepting the principle that within the appointments in the Police Force, not more than two-thirds of either gender shall be considered whether for recruitment, or for the top positions. It is truly a progressive Bill to this extent. I wonder why the same Cabinet would think that this principle is impossible to apply when it comes to the election of Members of Parliament. I think they should ask the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security to help them in the implementation of this Clause because he is way ahead of his time. I want to congratulate him. I also noticed that the command of the Police Force is now in the hands of the National Security Council. Our Police Force has finally been freed from political manipulation. This, again, is fundamental. We have had problems in this country, especially in 2007/2008, where most Kenyans felt that we had lost control of the Police Force, and where people blamed the Force in some areas for acting in a partisan manner. That can be traced to different political interests within the country. For the first time, the Force is freed and even the hiring of the Inspector-General will be open, transparent and subject to parliamentary approval. This will ensure that whoever is appointed Inspector- General realizes that they owe their position to Kenyans. That is because it is Kenyans who will be giving out the job through this Constitution and through their representatives. Clause 10 is very progressive. For the first time, we are talking about human rights in the police Bill. We know that we have gone through very hard times with extra- judicial killings where it is believed that over 2,000 young men have been killed by the police under the guise of maintenance of law and order. The Bill, for the first time, is helping us to instill in the Police Force a culture of human rights. I looked at Clause 95 which prohibits torture. Again, every police officer being recruited will know that torture is illegal. It is not just torture, but also inhuman and degrading treatment. I have looked at this Bill. It has penalties for a police officer who unlawfully inflicts torture or subjects a citizen to inhuman and degrading treatment. This Bill also recognizes that police officers have human rights, just like everybody else. I have seen in Clause 103 that it becomes a serious offence to assault a police officer. We have seen images on television of police officers being assaulted while trying to arrest people. Recently, a traffic police officer was trying to arrest a truck driver. Members of the public watched as the police officer got assaulted by people whom he was trying to arrest. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think that even as citizens, we will also realize that it is a serious crime to assault a police officer or obstruct them while on their duty. I think this Bill, for the first time, is balancing the rights of the law enforcers with the rights of the citizens. I have also noticed that this Bill is invoking the Chapter on human rights in the Constitution, and that is really very good. Cases of police officers who abuse power are addressed by this Bill. We know that, other than politicians, other citizens can also corrupt police officers to abuse their powers and to punish their opponents. It is now a criminal offence for a police officer to abuse power. Any officer who acts contrary to the law will have this Act to answer to. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think all the issues that we have been talking about with regard to the police have been taken care of. Police officers are forbidden from engaging in business that conflicts with their duties. Imagine how many police officers have matatus and who therefore, terrorize the other matatu business people because they want their matatus to get the business first. Imagine the many police officers who have bars and, therefore, harass other bar owners so that their bars may profit. This is a Bill that is saying: “Choose your profession.” If you want to be a police officer, be a professional police officer. If you want to be a business person, get out and do business like other people. I think this will help us go a long way in streamlining issues of discipline within the Force. Finally, I want to salute and laud this Bill for creating several institutions. The Bill has created not just a National Security Command, but also, it has envisaged an independent oversight authority for the police. That way, when police are accused of excesses, whether torture, unlawful killings or any other issue, it is not fellow police officers who will investigate them. Investigations now will be carried out by the Independent Oversight Authority. As I have said, there is co-ordination of the various forces. There will be coordination between the Administration Police and the regular police because they will be under one Inspector-General. There will be coordination between them and the Criminal Investigations Department. Another very good feature is the issue of co-operation with foreign jurisdictions. We are now having cases seeking to extradite Kenyans to other jurisdictions. The courts are taking their time in making decisions, probably, because there is no clear guideline. This law now mandates the police to co-operate beyond the borders. With those many remarks, I want to support this very timely Bill.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to support this very important Bill. First and foremost, let me pay tribute to the men and women of the Kenya Police Force. As we know, those men and women work under very difficult conditions. They live in poor housing and are paid low salaries. Many of them put in many hours and, as we all know, they put their lives on the line in protecting the lives and properties of Kenyans. So, I think it is fair for us to pay tribute to the Police Force. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as we all know, the Kenya Police Force used to be famed as one of the best in Africa. But, regrettably, the Police Force in Kenya, both Administration and even the Kenya Police, have gone down so much that we cannot claim that our Kenya Police Force is one of the best; neither does it even meet any standards. That has been so because of rampant corruption in the Kenya Police. In short, all the branches of the Kenya Police have failed Kenyans miserably. An example is the Traffic Police. For example, everyday as you drive along the road you will see traffic policemen shamelessly receiving bribes from motorists. This happens every day. The result of this is what we all know; we are losing many lives. Over the weekend many lives were lost. All this can be attributed to laxity of the Kenya Police, particularly those of the Traffic Department, because of corruption. Un-roadworthy vehicles and overloaded vehicles are on our roads, courtesy of the Kenya Traffic Police.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, even the regular police can be blamed for the breakdown of law, order and national security. They set up road blocks, and because of corruption, they allow firearms, and foreigners to come into this country, thereby risking lives and properties of Kenyans.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, another branch of the Kenya Police Force is the Criminal Investigation Department. One of the roles of the Kenya Police is to detect and investigate crime. Today, wananchi are taking law into their hands, simply because the police have failed to do their work. Many crimes are committed under the watch of the police, and they do nothing. As you recall, last year some men walked to a religious function at Uhuru Park, and hurled grenades at the crowd. As of today, the Kenya Police has not been able to arrest the perpetrators of this crime. Many crimes are being committed in this country with no action being taken.
Therefore, this Bill is welcome. This Bill puts together the Kenya Police and the Administration Police. It, therefore, repeals the Kenya Police Act, and the Administration Police Act. It puts the Kenya Police Force under one command. I have no doubt that this will improve discipline and enhance command and control of the Kenya Police. This is very important. Now, for the first time in many years, we are making progress in getting a police force that can work in a civilised society.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have looked at Part VI of this Bill, which talks about County Policing Authorities. I would like to invite the relevant Committee of this House to carefully look at this part. There appears to be a lot of conflict and things which are not very clear as to the role of the County Policing Authority and the composition of the Authority. I have seen, for example, that in the Constitution we have preserved the service called the “Provincial Administration”; at least it is to be re- organized in five years. But in this County Policing Authority, I see no role of the Provincial Administration, which in my view, is very important. Therefore, there is need for the Committee to carefully scrutinize this Bill, particularly Part VI which creates the County Policing Authority to ensure that it is in tandem with the new Constitution. They should make sure that all the authorities are consulted.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to finally say that the image of the Police Force in a way reflects on the country. Therefore, as you walk around, you see policemen and you wonder whether they are really policemen. For example, most of the policemen are overweight. In other countries, you have a limitation of the waistline. I saw this morning a Traffic Policeman riding a motorbike and I sympathized with the motorbike. He was too huge to ride a motorbike, yet he is a policeman. How can this policeman run after a criminal? I would like to suggest that the Code of Conduct that is going to be prepared by the Inspector-General must, of necessity, prescribe the maximum weight of a policeman. Similarly, the Code of Conduct must also prescribe the waistline of a policeman. If it is 32 inches and a policeman exceeds that, he must be given notice to go home unless he reduces the weight. I know this matter may be looked at as petty, but it is so crucial because the image of this country must be reflected through our policemen. Today, I am sorry, it is not the case. Therefore, I would like to ask the Minister, when prescribing the Code of Conduct for policemen, to ensure that the matter of weight and waistline is considered.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand to support this Bill. It is a Bill that has brought back the confidence that we had in the system. I remember during the constitutional review exercise, much was brought and I can see that many of the issues that were discussed during the constitutional review exercise have been captured here. The police, as my colleague has stated, is the image of the country. Our policemen have done a great job and continue to do a great job. The fact that they are marked as the most corrupt institution in Kenya is sometimes a mark on our culture itself. Unfortunately, these police officers are paid very little and work very hard. There is a word that I used many times before, namely, corruption for survival. This basically has been corruption for survival. Police officers have tried their very best to make money on the side. The fact that they have stopped engaging in businesses is very good. I am hoping that our police officers will be treated as professionals. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am very pleased that we now have the Administration Police and the boys in blue under one Inspector- General, but commanded individually by Deputy Inspector-Generals who are Accounting Officers. Hitherto, the Administration Police and the main Police Force have had a very big rivalry that even when two people were shooting at each other, one police force felt that the other was favoured while the other was being subdued. By bringing them together, we have done a great thing. I cannot stand here without remembering that this is the same Police Force which stood aside when 87 people were shot dead in Kisumu. This is the same Police Force who, when some rogue officers---
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is not only Kirui. Kirui is just one of many. I remember that, at that time, I was the only Member of Parliament there and my vehicle was picking up dead bodies. I went to see the Provincial police officers and we had a meeting, not far away from the Nyanza Club, with the Provincial Police Officer, (PPO), the Provincial Commissioner and the district security team. I pleaded with them to stop using live bullets. The District Commissioner (DC) and the Provincial Police Officer (PPO) confirmed to me that they would stop using live bullets. They gave an order through their radio communication that no more live bullets were to be used. However, about 20 minutes thereafter, the police were still using live bullets. One of my supporters was killed, and we took the body to the security team.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the point I am trying to make is that when I confronted the provincial and district security teams, they threw their hands up in the air. They said: “Sir, we do not know what is happening. We have given the order, but there is somebody else controlling the Police Force”. That is a fact. The fact of the matter is that we put together 87 postmortem reports, with 87 documentations on these people, and sent them through human rights organisations. That is probably why the then Police Commissioner is among those who have cases at The Hague. Maybe, he is at The Hague because he was not in control of the Police Force. Now that we will have an Inspector-General of the National Police Service, this will detach the Police Force from political men; we shall get somewhere. The “police state” must now come to an end. We must not go back to where we came from. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have seen somewhere in the Bill where it says that within ten days after commencement of this Act, the Inspector-General of the National Police Service must be appointed. I plead that once this Bill has been approved, the Government will put the Act in operation immediately. The Government pushed us today to sit overtime, and we do not want to wait for another three months for the appointment of the Inspector-General. I expect the Inspector-General to be appointed within two or three weeks, whichever is feasible, of the passing of the Bill. I am very pleased about the re-establishment of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs.
Hon. Shakeel, you are the one who has asked that hon. Members speak for five minutes.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, with due respect---
Order! Order, Mr. Shakeel! I just pointed out that you are the one who suggested that the time for each hon. Member be limited to five minutes, and you have spoken for more than five minutes. Continue.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I suggested that, hoping that we would all adhere to it. However, when you left us to make our own decisions, and nobody else followed the suggestion, I felt that I should also follow suit. However, in the interest of time, I will be brief. What I am saying is that I am very pleased that the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs is now in place. I hope that they will now be effective and put things in order. With those remarks, I beg to support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Bill. It is long overdue. For the first time, the powers and responsibilities of the police force and the administration police have been clearly spelt out. They have been brought under one unified command and, therefore, there will be no orders emanating from a specific commandant or Commissioner of Police, but it will be under one unified command, giving one direction and one purpose and one control. After all, their main function will be maintenance of peace and order. It is, therefore, very important that these functions are there for the efficient and transparent management of the service and also for the principles of equity and meritocracy to be applied. The Minister in charge had already enumerated the criteria that will be used for these police officers to be recruited into the service. One of the other areas that have attracted my attention and interest is the issue of border control. The inter-ethnic quarrels and border snippets have been a major issue of concern for the people at the county and rural levels. Now, for the first time, it is clear who is in charge of the border security through the Administration Police under the command of the Deputy Inspector-General. Therefore, there will be no passing of the buck to anybody; at least we now know which command is directly responsible for the maintenance of law and order, for the maintenance of security at the border between one ethnic group and the other. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, only recently, we have been treated to a specter of many inter-ethnic quarrels and fights resulting into very serious deaths. I think now that the Administration Police know what they must do, it is my expectation that in the process of arranging their duty patrols, they will be able to work out with the neighbouring counties on how to counteract this menace which has been a very important feature in the police force. The other element which is commendable in this Bill is the involvement of citizens in the activities of the Police Force. It is the citizens who know where the shoe pinches. It is the citizens who know where the problem is. Without involving the citizens, we may be missing a very important and fundamental area of trying to keep Kenyans safe. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also believe that this will also overcome these problems of inter-territorial border problems. We know who is in charge and who is responsible. Therefore, we do not have to quarrel about that. Part II of this Bill for the first time provides for the qualifications of who should be what in what rank. I think qualifications will be in accordance with the established qualification meritocracy list that is given through the normal educational programme and qualification framework which is so crucial and important for all of us.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Part IV talks about the specific functions of the Inspector-General. One area which is critical to this nation is about our vital installations. They have been open to vandalism and sabotage particularly as relates to the economic activities. You will get an entire area covered by fibre optic cable being vandalized with much abandon, resulting in huge financial costs and losses. Therefore we are unable to provide the necessary Information Communication Technology (ICT) in the digital villagers where Kenyans are very keen, eager to learn and access the skills. We now know where to place the responsibility for this vandalism. One of the most important things is the vital installations, the strategic points and government property so that there are no people sitting on government property without any legal framework like we have witnessed recently in some Government buildings. I hope this will now be a thing of the past. It will not be entertained because security must, indeed, stand out as one of the major functions. Our Police Service must carry out its security duties in order to safeguard the citizenry of this country.
I know that there are many other contributions that will be made but one of the things that I wanted to mention is the direct funding and the sub-autonomy that has been given to the Directorate of Criminal Investigation Department (CID). I think this is a very good way of ensuring that they operate independently and they source their resources from the centre rather than waiting to be told that no funds are available. At the end of the day, I think that one of the features that would make these forces efficient and effective are the tools of work that they will be given in terms of vehicles to transport the officers to areas of need and distress. Without the transportation element and communication channels, it may be difficult to perform. We may have a very good police force which will be rendered ineffective because they lack the necessary facilities. I hope that when it comes to resource allocation, they will be accorded priorities just like when, later on, I will come to teachers, I hope that they will also be accorded top priority.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, training is an important factor and, therefore, every police officer who does not conform to the training schedule should not be in the service. I think we need to bring in a culture of training, research and innovation. We are now demanding that we must have innovative methods of doing things, carrying out some business and responsibilities. I think the police force is no exception from this innovativeness on how they want to carry out their duties.
With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Since I am now hearing a lot of repetition, I now limit the contribution by each Member to five minutes.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to congratulate the Minister and all those who were involved in drafting this Bill. This Bill is very good and for the first time it will make our police force independent and be able to transact their business without any undue influence from the Executive or anybody else. So, I want to congratulate the Minister and all those concerned. There are a number of issues that I would like to raise that need to be considered. The first one is on the definition of torture. When it comes to the definition of torture, below it there is a sentence which actually seems to negate what the definition says. It says that provided the torture does not include any pain or suffering arising from inherent or incidental to lawful sanctions. I want to know what that means because it makes it look like there are certain areas where it is lawful to have torture.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the other area which we also need to look at is the functions of the Inspector-General. One of the functions, which I believe should be important for the Inspector-General is to establish and maintain a dynamic and comprehensive database on crime, including creation of relevant maps. The information is extremely important when it comes to the deployment of the police. This is because we need to know where a particular crime is prevalent, so that we can deploy the police there.
The other area which needs to be considered under Clause 11 is with regard to the conditions or qualifications we need for the Inspector-General. I believe that we need an Inspector-General who has experience in strategic planning and management. If he does not have that, he should also have interest or qualification in Sociology.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the other area that is of interest is the County Policing Authority. This needs to be relooked into, as hon. Musila said, because there is conflicting interest there. The role of the Provincial Administration under this County Policing Authority needs to be re-examined.
Under the Criminal Investigation Department, I also believe that one of its functions should be to establish a dynamic crime database and monitor crime trends by type and area. This is because criminal investigation is very important and the establishment of a database that is dynamic is very important. Without a database on criminal activities, it is unlikely that the Department can transact its business very efficiently.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the other area that is of interest is Clause 56. Clause 56(1) says:- “A public officer in uniform may stop and detain any person whom he or she witnesses doing any act or thing”
I do not know what that means. I suspect that it must be witnesses doing any unlawful act or thing. So, I also need the drafters of this Bill to look into this. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the other area is “b” which says: “Finds in possession of anything or.” I think there must be a definition there. What does “anything” mean? That is an area that I would also like to be looked into. In conclusion, I would like to say that with regard to Community Policing, we need to examine how the Community Policing Committees will work at the community level. As much as it is said in this Bill that they will operate without payment and that they will volunteer, I believe there is need for them to be given some allowances to operate. Currently, community policing is not functioning well because of that. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, with those remarks, I beg to support.
Thank you very much, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want, first of all, to congratulate the Minister for working very hard with his team to bring, not just this Bill, but several other Bills. This is a lot of work that has been carried by the Minister. Indeed, this is an important legislation. I was asking myself. Has the Minister succeeded in transforming this police force from a colonial police force, because I think that legacy remained with us, into a new police force that can serve the second Republic of Kenya? This is because after the promulgation of the Constitution we, indeed, have a new Republic. You will remember during the colonial times, it was our own native sons and daughters that were deployed by the colonial police to carry out police operations. They were kept under a discipline that they had to obey orders. A lot of police misconduct and misbehavior is from that history and legacy that they had to carry out orders, however illegal and unconstitutional they were. I am happy to say that reading through this Bill generally, and I want to congratulate the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security, that lo and behold! You have done a great job in transforming the Police Force into a truly civilian Police Force which is accountable to the people. One of the things that happened during the colonial days was that police officers had no rights. However, instead of lamenting about what the police have done to me, I am happy, as a starting point, that we have a Police Force where their rights under this Bill are clearly spelt out. The police will be well looked after. The Bill says that they cannot be members of trade unions. However, they can have police service associations in which their grievances can be heard. This, together with the fact that we are improving their terms and conditions of service, can greatly contribute towards transforming the Police Force in the manner that we require. The other important thing that the Minister should look into – and I know he is looking into it – is how to ensure that the police have the ways and means of carrying out their duties and functions. The important thing that even you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, have been subject to arrest and detention in police stations--- The schedules here are very important. They can form part of the Bill and we need to look at them. However, before I get there, I must say that hon. Otichillo was right in saying that the definition of torture as contained in this Bill is not correct. That is because under the Constitution, freedom against torture cannot be limited. It is one of the freedoms that the Constitution says cannot be limited. Even the right to life cannot be limited. So, I think hon. Minister, you need to look at that and make sure that it comes in tandem with the Constitution. Our police officers must know that when they arrest and detain anybody under this Bill, there are conditions spelt out on how and in what circumstances you can detain. If you detain anybody, that person has certain rights which are spelt out. One of them is to communicate with their members of the family and to receive visits. They should also have a right to have members of their family be informed of their arrest. This is critical, having been one of the persons who, at one time, was locked up for two weeks without access to family or lawyer. That is now clearly spelt out and I think the Minister has done a good job. In the Sixth Schedule, conditions of using force are clearly spelt out. The circumstances under which a police officer can use force is now not a matter for debate. It is there in the law. The conditions to use firearms are also clearly spelt out. We cannot have conditions like the ones we had during the post-election violence where the use of ammunition and firearms was a matter that was left to individual police officers. Now, they are accountable under this new law which sets out very clearly when they can do that. I wanted to persuade the hon. Member who was talking about the County Police Authority. Even at the local level, we must have a police service which is alive to the interests and rights of the communities. In fact, in other jurisdictions, you have autonomous police services in every region, state and county. We had to look for a balance and see how we can have a Police Force that is accountable to the people at the grassroots and also has a national command. Recently, when I was I complaining to a policeman in my area, even with the position I hold in Government, he told me: “I am not answerable to you. I am only answerable to the OCPD.” It was a situation where members of the public were there. I was being embarrassed and I had a genuine complaint. He told me that if I had a problem, he cannot talk to me. I could talk to the OCPD. When I went to see the OCPD, he also told me that he needed to see a man in Kisumu. Now, this new arrangement gives some level of accountability to the Police Force on the ground because security issues cannot just be left with somebody in Nairobi. Security problems exist and the people on the ground know how to deal with them and they can, indeed, help the police. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, now, from the day the President will put his signature on this Act, I will be a very happy man because many times, I have been arrested and tortured by policemen. I remember in Kisii where I was being paraded in front of market women and there was nothing I could do. They were holding me by my trousers at the back and I was frog-marched from the bus park to the police station. By the time I got there, I really had no clothes to talk about. So, I think with this Act, I will now be very supportive of the Police Force. Secondly, I plead on their behalf that they should get all they need to make sure that we have the security that we need; vehicles, forensic instruments and so on. Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Sir. In order to avoid repetition, I want to go directly to some Clauses in support of this Bill. I am very happy because, first of all, this Bill will involve citizens in the management of police affairs. That will make it more transparent, accountable, efficient and effective in its role of serving wananchi . Clause 29 is on the term of the Director of CID. It is five years and not renewable. That is very commendable. Clause 41(d) is on the issue of the Chairman of the County Security Committee. I have not seen in the Bill who is really the Chairman because it talks about the Chairperson of the County Security Committee. That is Clause 41(d). That needs to be made specific. But it is not indicated. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Clauses 58 to 60 deal with searches and arrests without warrants. This should be really clarified because it may be abused in some instances. This should be addressed if we really want to have a transparent police force. Clause 65 is on powers to erect barriers. This needs to be justified because some of the barriers are turning to be toll stations. There should be some provision to justify that power to erect barriers. Clauses 70 to 73 have been dealt by the previous speakers. They are on the issue of trading, especially where police officers should avoid engaging in businesses. But it is not very clear on recruitment both at the county and the national level. How will recruitment be done? Will it be the way it is being done now, based on the constituencies? Will there be that equitable distribution of recruitment slots? On the Sixth Schedule, a lot has been said on the use of Information Technology (IT). On the use of force, it is good to be very specific on some instances, because it can be abused. This issue of police investigating the police must be looked into. I know there will be an Independent Police Oversight Authority that will take over investigations. When you look at those conditions for using force, there is a lot to be done; some of the conditions may be abused and need to be justified. When a police officer goes against the rules, this is not supposed to be a disciplinary offence. It is supposed to be a criminal offence. If you look at condition number 8 among others, you will see that the conditions need to be looked into.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, finally, I want to comment on Schedule VIII on offences against discipline. This Bill will be very important in enforcing discipline within the police force. Some of the offences against discipline really need not to be disciplinary actions; they should be criminal offences. If you look at element one of Schedule 8, it talks of “an unlawful strike”. I do not know whether there is “lawful strike” with respect to the National Police Service. If you take into account Clause 93, they will not be eligible to join any trade union. I do not think the issue of an unlawful strike really can arise.
With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the outset, I also want to join others in thanking the police for what they have been doing, and the security that they have continued to maintain in this country under very strenuous conditions.
I also wish to thank the Assistant Minister, Ministry of State for Provincial and Internal Security, Mr Ojode, for coming to the defence of the police, even at times when such a defence is very difficult.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, going directly into the Bill, the debate that has been in the public domain as to whether we want to retain the Administration Police (AP) or not has been put to rest by this Bill. Clearly, we will benefit from the experience that has been generated over a period by the presence of the APs in our country. This again reflects the wishes of Kenyans, who by and large, mentioned that they had seen the need for the APs. The good thing is that both the forces will fall under one command; we have recognized the advantages that we can derive from the regular and the Administration Police.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, clause 28 talks about appointment. I want to say that I come from Nyandarua County. I will be happy to see the appointments that have been going on in the country--- At least one should come from my County, and at least from an area that is near me, not because of anything else, but because I believe that even in my area we have men and women who are competent and qualified to serve in all the positions that have been advertised. I fear that this trend could easily apply even to the young people. When they apply for jobs, many of those from my area do not even get shortlisted. I hope it has not been by design. But it is something that we have reasons to complain about.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Clauses 82 to 86 need to be read together with Clause 93; they allow the police officers to have an association. This will give them room to air their grievances; their grievances must be heard, respected and responded to.
It is good to read it with Clause 93 which by and large, takes care of the fact that we could end up with a Police Force that is composed of activists. To some extent, Clause 93 seems to limit the presence of activists or the activities of activists within the Police Force.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is important to also recognize the work that has been done by the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security and the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs and his team because we now have provisions that clearly deal with police uniforms. We will not confuse security guards with police officers because of the uniforms that they have continued to use. They have confused the public as to who is a police officer as opposed to security guards but also with the qualification that uniforms can be used for artistic purposes. I like that qualification.
Again, the recognition of community policing and providing for it within the Bill is something for which we must commend the Minister and those who drafted this Bill. Community policing has helped a lot in this country. I join others who are saying that it is important that they also be considered for some form of allowances because the work they do is very crucial and has helped to reduce the incidences of violence and crime in the areas that we represent.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, with regard to the issue of torture, many Members who have spoken before me have talked about it. It is telling to see that torture or cruel treatment to those who the police come across has been prohibited. It is important to pay attention to the provision that there is no way that you can qualify any amount or extent of torture, but I am happy to read it together with Clause 103 because we may want to say that we do not want people to be tortured, but it is important that we also protect the police from being tortured. In the recent past, we have seen members of the public taking it upon themselves and unleashing terror on police officers. That is not a very good thing to happen to us as a society. It is important that we also maintain some respect for the police officers. It is crucial to say that even as we prohibit police officers from using excessive force, the members of the public should also not torture police officers. With those many remarks, I beg to support.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I stand to support the Bill. Kenyans have for a very long time lost faith and confidence in our institutions of governance, namely, the Judiciary, the Police Force and the Civil Service. When we passed the new Constitution, we wanted to renew our confidence and faith in our institutions. The Bill before this House is intended to produce the necessary reforms in the Police Force. I would like to salute the Minister for coming up with a very comprehensive law that I believe will go a very long way in reforming this very important institution of the police. I would like to refer to Clause 24, which talks about the functions of the Police Force. Clause 27 talks about the functions of the Administration Police. It would appear to me that the functions of the Administration Police are more elaborate and exhaustive. If you look at the Clause 27(b), it provides for border patrol and security, which is not given to the Kenya Police Service. It would appear to me that, that is limiting in the sense that it will reach a time when we might need the police also to play the role of border patrol and security. I would like to request the Minister, perhaps, to consider expanding the functions of the Police Service with a view to including that provision. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am glad that under Clause 110, we have the National Police Reserve. Our police officers in the rural areas have not been able to provide adequate security to our people, especially in regions where cattle rustling is rife. The community policing policy has not been very successful. I would like to commend the Minister for clearly providing for the first time that the Government should be able to provide police reservists, popularly known as “KPRs”. Unfortunately, this Clause does not clearly spell out who will determine the appointment of police reservists in the rural areas. In areas where we have insecurity, like in the pastoral areas, where we have the police not being able to provide our people with adequate security, we will have people in those areas empowered under this Clause, so that they will provide security for themselves and their property. Clause 110(3) provides that the reservists may be deployed in Kenya to assist the Kenya Police Service or the Administration Police Service in their respective mandates, including maintenance of law and order, preservation of peace, protection of lives and property. This is really critical; in my own constituency, for instance, it is my people themselves, when sometimes the police officers are far, who participate in protecting their lives and their livestock, especially in times when they are raided by aggressive communities, whom we, perhaps, live with. It is, therefore, very important that we make this mandatory; The Government should ensure that community policing is clearly provided for under Clause 110 of this Bill. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, provision of security for the Kenyan people is very important. Under the Constitution, it is the responsibility of the Government to ensure---
Assistant Minister, your time is up!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, with those remarks, I beg to support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me thank the Minister for bringing the Bill and attempting to reform the police. It is a good attempt but I want to say that what we need, as a country, is the total overhaul of the police force. First of all, I want to say that our existing police force needs to realise that this is not a Bill that is against them, and that the time for reform is here. First of all, I want to suggest to the Minister that in this Bill we need to be very categorical. We need to make sure that we do not create confusion by creating several police forces. There is no need, after the experience that this country went through in 2007, to have more than one police force. We need one police force, and not the Administration Police Service, because it will be difficult to change the thinking of individual officers. We need to collapse the Administration Police Service and the Kenya Police Service into one police force under the command of one person. Nothing will stop the force from having different divisions. We must achieve this in this Bill. Secondly, there must be good support for the police. We must spend our money in changing the attitude of the old police force and reforming it into the new envisaged police force. This is total change. We need to do certain things that will have reforms that are fundamental in the police force. Something like the traffic division of the police is unwarranted. You do not need a traffic division in a police force. Right now as it were, out of over 200 Members here, we drive on the roads every day and see traffic police officers only stopping public service vehicles. This happens yet there is escalation in accidents. What do they stop them for? It is a tax collection organization within the police force. Every police officer that you talk to wishes that this division is abolished except for those in the traffic department. That particular division must be abolished in this Bill. Thirdly, we do not need police reservists. Create one police force. Let it have divisions. If they feel they need the CID or police reservists, plain clothes police officers, let them do it in there. The way we have known police reservists, they are a big cause of crime in this country. We do not need them. If we are going to have them, the Minister---
Minister, I wish you could listen because you asked us to contribute. The Minister will owe a duty to this House to explain who is a police reservist and how we will equip them in terms of their operations so that Kenyans can know. We do not need another force to negate the aspirations and demoralize the police force in a way we have seen before. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if you look at this Bill, the functions of the Administration Police (AP) and the functions of the police force are identical. Why do you need the two? We need a scenario where all officers are able to enforce the same law in a way that if I were in my village the AP - because they live in the village - can appear in court to give evidence because they are the arresting officers. We need to use this law to address simple anomalies that affect our people on a day to day basis. Right now, if an AP arrests you, they hand you over to the regular police who is not the initial respondent in a crime scene. Therefore, you end up being prosecuted by a third party. So many of our people are going to prison and languishing there because of bad and cooked up evidence by people who have not responded to specific crimes which somebody is accused of. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, something must be done in law to specifically change the attitude of the existing police force. I want to support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice in support of this very progressive Bill. Foremost, I want to thank the Minister for coming up with a very progressive Bill which was a product of very wide consultation right from the onset. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I must confess that immediately the first draft was out, the Minister through the task force had the courtesy to invite us as a committee together with the Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs and the Constitution Implementation Oversight Committee (CIOC) in Mombasa to go through the draft. After our input, the second draft that came out, the Minister through the task force, again, had the courtesy to give us that draft. We added our input and forwarded it back to the task force.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, considering where the police force has come from, that is, from 1963 to where it is, this is the first time that the police force will be comprehensively reformed. I say this because, like what Mr. Orengo has said, the police force, right from the beginning in 1963, has been used as a tool by those in power to suppress the opposition and perpetuate themselves in power. It has been used more as a repressive tool. That explains why the police force has been neglected over time. The conditions that they have been working in have been horrific and their welfare has not been taken care of. Their tools to fight crime and their emergence have been at the mercy of the power barons. That is why the Englishman says that he who pays the piper calls the tune. The police had been left at the mercy of those who could facilitate them in a way. That way, we ended up with a repressive organ. That is why I say kudos to the promulgation of the new Constitution which has resulted to a very progressive product in the name of this Bill that will reform the police force.
We had an opportunity, together with other stakeholders led by the Office of the President yesterday to go clause by clause, and I must admit, on behalf of the Committee that during the Third Reading, there are a few grey areas that we will point out. For instance, an area that has been neglected is while we appreciate the work that the police do, there has been no inclusion when a policeman is injured or dies in the course of duty. Some form of insurance should be provided to police officers because they work under very dangerous and difficult conditions. This is to ensure that those they leave behind in case of death while on duty are also taken care of. Since this Bill defines the roles of the Administration Police and the regular police, the conflict that was there will be a thing of the past. The level of discipline emanating from both the civilians and the police officers knowing the consequences of, for instance, beating up a police officer or torturing a civilian will be very dear. The discipline that we will have arising from this Bill will be very progressive for this country. For the first time, the Inspector-General will have security of tenure. He or she will be vetted before getting into office. The independence of the police force will be there.
Time is up, Mr. Kapondi!
Without sounding repetitive, I want to say that this is a progressive Bill that requires the support of the House.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for allowing us to continue despite some intimidation from some quotas here. I rise to support this Bill for four reasons. The Constitution of this great Republic regarding the fundamental rights and freedoms, perhaps the most fundamental right is the right to life. The Member of the National Assembly is elected to represent people. You can imagine one fateful morning in 2009 when several dozen Kenyans died in a gunfight in my constituency. Since then, not a single arrest has been made and yet it is three years down the line. So, I support anything that reforms the police force so that we can provide policing services that are required by the citizens of this country.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, around the world, a police officer or an officer in uniform, in fact, is often referred to as an officer of peace. So, if you are in Sydney, New York or some other city and you get lost, you approach somebody in uniform who might be able to help you with directions. Here, if you meet a police officer walking towards you, you will probably cross the street. This is what we need to reform; that over time, the citizen has lost trust in the police service, just as they had lost trust in the State. So, policing is not just about the use of force. I think it is about hearts and minds. That is why I laud the inclusion of community policing in this Bill, so that for the first time, we can have it legislated.
Today, if you have a complaint – and I heard Mr. Orengo talking about having a genuine complaint – there is no place for you to go. So, I absolutely laud Article 87 that establishes the Internal Affairs Department to which, as a citizen, you can complain and they can investigate the Police Service.
Finally, on the Kenya Police Reservists (KPRs), I want to go on record supporting it. If you live in Laikipia, Samburu or many parts of this country, then the KPR is an absolute necessity. So, I laud again the inclusion of the KPR and its definition in Part 15, particularly, the provision to retrain existing KPRs so that they can conform to the standards demanded by this Act and also the standard demanded by all of us and by the Constitution of Kenya.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will start by thanking the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security, who has vigorously laboured for us to have this Bill here. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Bill is good and it will improve the Police Service, now that it will be under the Inspector General, who will not be acting under fear or intimidation from the political class. Therefore, we expect the general public to get justice from the police force. A lot is expected of the police force, but very few of us give the police force the tools they deserve. Where I come from, the police force hardly have vehicles to use. Some of them even rely on public transport to get to one station from another. I want to believe that money will be set aside by the Government to equip our police force to be a police force which is able to deal with crime as they get sophisticated with the advent of new technology. If you look at Schedule Four on page 820 on the affirmation of office--- I want to read out the last two sentences for the Minister to note. It says:- “To the best of my knowledge and skills, I will discharge all the duties thereof faithfully according to law and will not---“ There appears to be an error there that needs to be noted by the Minister and the Committee for correction. Going back to the role of the National Police Reserve on page 807, Clause 110, I want to go on record as supporting the police reserve. Those who live in the rural areas know very well that it is very difficult for the regular police to access those areas. Crimes are committed and there is no police. A good example is last weekend. I visited an area near Magadi on the border of Kenya and Tanzania. People were moving freely from Tanzania into Kenya. A lot of poaching is being done there. It is the KPR who maintain law and order. Therefore, forming that unit will help complement the efforts of the Police Force. This is one area that I feel we should support. Those who live in the urban areas may not realize the importance of that team. The other issue I want to comment on is the role of the Inspector General. There seems to be a disconnect in this Bill with regard to the role of the Inspector General and the title given to the county police. Therefore, I want to support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, first of all, I want to start by thanking the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Even though I did not want to interrupt the hon. Assistant Minister, hon. Kamama, I think we have ventilated on this Bill a little bit. Would I be in order to request that the Mover be called upon to reply, so that we move on to the next issue?
Order, hon. Members, you will notice that there is a lot of interest. Let us allow one or two other Members.
Thank you Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would like to thank the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security for coming up with this very exhaustive and comprehensive Bill that will reform our Police Force. I am passionate because I have served as a Commander of the Administration Police, under Cap.85 - The Administration Police Act. So, I know the kind of problems that those officers face. At the same time, I have also worked with the Kenya Police who are governed by Cap. 84 - The Police Act. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am happy that, those Acts have collapsed; Cap. 84 - The Police Act, and Cap.85 - The Administration Police Act and now, we have one Bill that will actually bring one command to the police force. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am happy that we have one Director- General and two Deputy Director-Generals in charge of the Administration Police and the Kenya Police. Nobody should doubt that when we have two forces, somebody should say that we will have conflict in command. The two forces have co-existed with the few problems that you have always had. But I am sure this Bill will address those small teething problems. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to agree with Mr. Kapondi who has said that we need a clause that provides for compensation of officers. One week, when I was a District Officer in Garissa, I lost three inspectors. I was also shot. I was flown to Forces Memorial Hospital where I was treated. I lost the three officers in a very sad situation. I am even sure that up to now, nobody has actually compensated their families and they are suffering, wallowing in poverty and deep penury. So, something has to be done about that. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me go to the Kenya National Police Reserve on Clause 115. We must draw a dichotomy between the Kenya Police Reservists and the ones we used to call homeguards. Homeguards should actually be maintained. But if you want to abolish Kenya Police Reservists in urban areas, we do not need them. I do not think they are necessary. But we want the Kenya Police Reservists in pastoral areas and all ASAL regions to be maintained. They should actually be remunerated. They should actually get some funds. Otherwise, at the moment, they are serving like missionaries to the Ministries. They are actually missionaries of the security sector. On the issues of the county police authority, I am happy that now under this Bill, the chairperson of the county police authority is actually the governor, together with two other executive members nominated by him. I only want us to provide for the transition. Where are the provincial administration officers? Have they been abolished? What has happened to them? I am happy the Minister has just mentioned that he will take care of that. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me turn to the issue of powers to erect barriers under Clause 65. The Minister must look at that very carefully. As it stands now, those police barriers are actually not helping Kenyans. When Kenyans see a police barrier, they are actually intimidated because the next thing they will be asked is to produce money. I want the Minister to look at the best ways of managing all police barriers in this country. He should even consider having CCTV’s or mobile CCTV’s at all police roadblocks because Kenyans have suffered under that kind of situation. I also want to propose that the entire Traffic Act be abolished and the existing officers be replaced by new officers. The officers who are there should be taken to other departments. You heard what Mr. Musila said. He said that all traffic police officers are actually over-weight. We need to compare them with the ones who are in the Traffic Police Department. There is a lot of difference. That presupposes that something must be happening. They must be eating something. I want an overhaul of the Traffic Police Department.
With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to support this Bill. I want to thank the Minister for having tried to cover the Police Service so elaborately.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to say three things. One, in the timetable for the appointment of the Inspector-General, which is a very important office-- - There must never be a delay in that appointment. I want to suggest that the timeline set out needs to be as definite as possible. We define time as the difference between occurrences of two events. For example, when you want to say that the President shall within seven days of receipt of names forwarded under subsection (6) by notice in Kenya Gazette nominate the person for appointment as Inspector-General, there is always some vagueness in the time of receipt. So, I would suggest that an event occurs when Parliament approves something, that must be taken as a definite event, and the President should be compelled to appoint an Inspector-General within seven days of Parliament approving.
The other thing I want to add is that in the appointment of the Inspector-General as covered under Clauses 12(1), (2), (3), (4), and (5), I do not understand how the selection panel is going to be a permanent part of this Bill in the future, because the structure of Government is going to change.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the other point I want to bring out is in the qualification of the key personnel that are going to serve in the police force. This being the era of technology, I want to suggest that over and above the qualifications that have been spelt out here for the Inspector-General and the Director of the Criminal Investigations Department, the appointees must be technologically literate.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, last but not the least, I want to suggest that the police force at the county level be made to report to the governor of the county. This is because the Governor, being the elected leader of the county, will have responsibility for the security of his people; a mechanism should be found, where the governor and the police force will be able to interact.
With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just want to add a few points. I have looked at the Bill. To me, it looks a very good Bill; it covers very comprehensively areas of reforms.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, of late, we have had problems along our international borders, particularly this year, be it Migingo, be Todonyang, be it along the Somali border. The fact that the border patrol unit has been put under a specific service, the Administration Police, is to me, one of the key positive things that this Bill has brought out.
I will ask the Committee on Administration and National Security that when they will be bringing amendments to this House, they should re-look very carefully at Clause 41 on county policing authorities, so that we maintain consistencies when we talk about the county policing authorities because this is a new input that is coming in where county governments are also going to play a big role in working hand in hand with the national security policing institutions to enforce security. I will also refer you to Clause 21(e) and 41(3). There has to be some consistency in terms of the members who the county governor is supposed to appoint. Are they six, seven or ten? I think we have to be very consistent here so that we do not have two articles that conflict each other. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the same clause sub-section 7, I have seen that many authorities that we have passed in this House, we have maintained a consistency of three years and then re-appointment for another term but this specific one talks of two years. Within two years, the members of that authority will not have sufficient time to have worked enough. Let us make it consistent with all the other authorities and say three years so that all these are consistent. The other issue is on the National Police Reserve, Clause 112. This is reformed because we are talking of moving away from the Kenya Police Reserve to form a National Police Reserve. If you look at Clause 112(2), it states that:- “Notwithstanding subsection (1) where there is a state of war or a state of emergency under Article 58 of the Constitution, every reserve police officer shall serve for the duration of the war or emergency, or for as long as the regulations are in force---“ Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the issue that I want to bring up here is that you may realize that certain parts of this country may not be relevant to be equated to a state of war or a state of emergency, for instance, the conflict and insecurity of cattle rustling areas in upper Eastern and Turkana where even now, we have Kenya Police Reservists working. We may need to bring in an amendment to this clause to say that in situations of instability, this can be--- I beg to support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to commend Prof. Saitoti for working hard on The National Police Service Bill. I know the amount of time, expense and the taskforces involved. That should be the way it is because I subscribe to the opinion that unless we reform the police force, the Government will never be effective because the policing arm of the State is the police force. I just want the Minister to know that it is one thing to do this law, which he has done in terms of consolidating the police force and ensuring the powers and coming up with a service for the police. When you look at this, and I hope the Committee has looked at it, you get the impression that the Police Service has two services in one. They could operate independently as units just like the General Service Unit has its command and the CID has its command, but in terms of that structure, and that is why we got the position of the Inspector-General, it is very important that even if the Administration Police and the Kenya Police are separate entities, they should not bear the name of a service. There should only be one service, namely, the National Police Service. That is extremely critical. I support the separation because of my own experience during the 2002 general elections. It was the Kenya police who saved me. The Administration Police were highly compromised by the powers that be. So, there is need for separation. In terms of uniformity, regularity, terms and conditions of service, qualifications for employment and remunerations, we must have one national police service.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, secondly, where I come from, the National Police Service is augmented by the Kenya Police Reservists (KPRs). I am made to believe that the KPR may also be found in the urban areas. As the Minister thinks of amendments, he may wish to clarify that there is the KPR and the National Police Service. He should give us another name, because they play two different functions. Where we come from, and in most parts of northern Kenyan, as well as in other places where the state of insecurity is in play on a permanent basis, we need to call them “Homeguards”.
If you look at the recommendations by the Minister in terms of Clause 11(5) and 11(3), they essentially say that police reservists shall not be entitled to any claim, but they are entitled to be mobilised by the Inspector-General, in consultation with the Cabinet Secretary. You will appreciate that this arrangement is meant for the KPR in urban areas. Where we come from, the KPR personnel are mobilised all the time, instead of the regular and Administration Police. At the end of the day, they risk their lives. Police reservists are on duty at all times, but who gets paid? It is the police officers who have personal numbers. Those who are mobilised to fight are those poor peasants, whose only claim to a police status is possession of a gun that has been issued to them by the Kenya Police at the expense of their own guns. They even trade in our own guns and they do not pay us for one.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want the Minister to consider that proviso because it is completely critical on the kind of issues and areas they are interested in. I want to encourage the vetting of the police officers, so that we weed out those officers who look even bigger and fatter than their own seniors. With those remarks, I beg to reply.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the Minister for doing a very good job on this very complicated subject of transforming our Police Force into a Police Service. He has done a good job, and we need to thank him. I do not want to repeat what other hon. Members have said. I would particularly like to appreciate the creation of the County Policing Authority, which will bring in synergy between the National Government and the county governments in providing policing services at the grassroots level, in the county governments. I am sure that this was, again, a very difficult area to legislate on but the Minister has worked on it very well and brought up a structure which provides synergy, and not conflict; between the National Government and the county governments. That is why we are suggesting that when other legislations relating to conflict resolution and policing are brought, it would be very useful to bring in the reforms of the Provincial Administration, if it will be there, because the Constitution insists that the Provincial Administration must be reformed to accord with the county governments to. We would like such legislation to, again, create synergy between those departments, so that they can be able to work very well. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the issue of the National Police Service is also another very noble idea that will help us, especially in times of emergency, and especially in our border areas, where our citizens are many times attacked by militias from outside countries. We will be able to mobilise our National Police Reservists to compliment the regular police in dealing with external forces that threaten the security of our country, especially threats which are not necessarily by foreign governments but by amorphous groups that come into our country to either loot our resources or kill our citizens. So, the National Police Reservists will be a very key component in policing our borders and making our border communities secure. This will be very important in even restoring the national faith that many of our border communities have lost when they were attacked all the time and the Government was never there to take care of them. It is also important to point out the fact that the National Police Reservists have been operating underground. In the past, nobody knew how they were recruited and what the selection criteria was. Now that this is recognized in law and criteria is set and transparency will be taken when recruiting them, we are sure they will be a very useful force to help in policing our country. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, without much ado I want to support this extremely important Bill that is going to transform the police force into a good service for the country.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. You have realized as the Chair that we are now repeating ourselves. Would I be in order to ask that the Mover be called upon to reply?
Let me allow two minutes each for Mrs. Kilimo, the Member for Lari and Mr. Mututho and then I will oblige.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, in supporting this Motion, I have an issue with Clause 115. I am one person who comes from a community which just survived through the teeth of a crocodile or whatever you can call it, because of insecurity. Thanks to the Kenya Police Reservists (KPR). Looking at Clauses 115 they say they shall be given allowances as may be prescribed. Let us be definite. The first month and the second month, they should do something. This is because the KPR, currently, in my constituency work on full time basis. This is why we have peace between us and the Pokot. I appreciate the work of police officers but unfortunately, sometimes the terrain is difficult. Some of them are from flat grounds and if you post them into these difficult and stony terrains where cattle rustling is common, they are not able to follow the cattle. I feel that the KPR do a great job especially as far as cattle rustling and maintaining peace in these areas is concerned. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Clause 113(2) talks about the state of war and emergency, but what about our areas where fighting over cattle is common? Our young men still marry and raid cattle. What happens? We need them to be called to maintain peace and order at such times especially for women and girls who suffer in such cases. I support.
Thank you Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for the few minutes to make a contribution to this very important law. Let me start by thanking the Minister for deploying security forces to Migingo Island and again to our border with Ethiopia to secure our brothers in those regions. I also thank the Minister for disbanding the Kwekwe Squad that was being accused of terrorizing Kenyans. I also wish to thank the Minister for the very able manner he has presented this Bill. This Bill is coming into this House for the first time after 47 years of Independence. This new law will tame some of the security incidents that we have witnessed in this country, for instance, disappearance of people who were later found murdered, carjacking in our towns and even kidnapping of children and old people. We have also witnessed extra-judicial killing of our people. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is almost evident that we have witnessed very poor investigations of cases, very poor prosecutions and finally acquittals of people because the job has not been properly done. The new law---
Order! Your time is up! Mr. Mututho, you have two minutes!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Bill and go straight to Clause 24. In my view, the first functions would have been coordination of emergency evacuations so that in a scene where we have emergencies like the bomb blast and other things, the police are expressly in charge of that scene. The same could be said of scenes of crime and all other areas that are not specified and where we are not likely to have any further Act that define such scenes.
Looking at the functions of the police and their very nature, I find Clause 67 a bit wanting because it says that they cannot use public property on their own. We need to define that further because the house, the beddings and other things are part of public property and somebody malicious might say that it is public property. I know perhaps they may have meant things like firearms, handcuffs and so on.
If you look at Clause 95, you will find that the fines and sentences proposed for offenders are really harsh. I think 15 years or 25 years is not practical. As much as we do not agree on torture, imprisoning somebody for those years as proposed in this Bill is on the higher side. Perhaps it would have been better if it was five years or thereabouts so that somebody reforms, comes back and join the nation building exercise. I support the Bill.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I rise to support the Bill before us. The issue of the police being reformed is definitely a necessity. But in spite of all this, we should not forget the fact that Kenya has one of the best police force. It is not just enough for us to talk about a few bad elements. I am saying this because there is no doubt that our country has enjoyed peace and security for a long time. I must say that these reforms must come. I remember an incident in my constituency where 29 people died. I want to thank the Minister for having stood firm on some decisions. There were some people who had come up with a force called “vigilante group” which had the authority to arrest you, try you and judge that you are a criminal who requires to die. So, you were only given one option; either you hang yourself or you are chopped into pieces. Therefore, there are such bad elements in the police force. The massacre in Mathira was done with the full knowledge of the police force. People crossed from one district to another in broad daylight while armed but nobody did anything about it. The other incidences that we have witnessed in this country are extra-judicial killings. Some of these things are done for criminal purposes and not for security purposes. Therefore, there is need to reform the police force.
With those few remarks, I support the Bill.
We shall have Mr. Ngugi before we allow the Minister to respond.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me a chance to support this Bill. From the outset, I would like to say that if there is anything that Kenyans would remember throughout their history is the passing of the new Constitution. It is as a result of the passing of the Constitution that we are getting to reform our police and all our institutions.
I would like to address one clause of this Bill. Section 41 talks about the county policing. If you look at the way the members of the county policing will be selected, their distribution and the competitive recruitment, you will find that it is a new dawn for this country because it provides equity and transparency. It is good for this country.
With those few remarks, I support the Bill.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Bill be now read a Second Time.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
What is your point of order, Martha?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. The order was read out with leave of the House. I think that although we set out to stay late, starting to move a Bill at 9.30 p.m.----
Order! Do you know what leave of the House means? It means before the Member moves. It is immediately--- You have been over taken by events.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was standing, actually.
I actually looked around---
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I have already moved this Bill. The main purpose of the Bill is to establish an independent Ethics and Anti- Corruption Commission which will ensure compliance with the enforcement of the provisions of Chapter 6 of the Constitution. One of the principal objectives of reviewing our Constitution---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. These Standing Orders were not meant for nothing. If I read Standing Order No.108, it says: “Not more than one stage of a Bill may be taken at any one sitting, unless by leave of the House.” Who gave the leave? The point I am making is not the issue of whether he has moved or not. In fact, the Question has not been proposed. That is when we can argue that the House is in possession of this Bill. So, hon. Martha Karua and any other Member, including the hon. Member for Turkana Central, is perfectly in order to raise objections.
Indeed, you are perfectly at liberty to raise objections. You had indicated to me and I had pointed out what you need to do if you want to deny the Minister leave. The Standing Order is very clear. This is what it says: “Leave of the House means there being no objection by any Member, either with the sympathy of the Speaker or the support of, at least, two other Members.” When the Clerk-at-the-Table read out the Bill - because it had been indicated to me that leave would be denied - I looked and there were no, at least, two members standing. So, unfortunately, you have been overtaken by events. Minister, you can continue.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker. One of the principal objectives of reviewing our Constitution was to ensure the establishment of a public leadership and integrity system that is clearly guided by defined codes of conduct and public ethics infrastructure. In essence, people wanted their leaders to be accountable for their actions. They also wanted mechanisms in place that would assure them that if leaders strayed, there were consequences to be met. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this Bill proposes to establish a Commission that will guide the realization of those aspirations. The Commission will develop a code of ethics for State officers and also oversee the enforcement of codes of ethics provided for such officers. You will find that in Clause 11(1)(a) and(f). This will ensure that public servants do not engage in business or have relationships that generate conflict of interest. It will also ensure that all public servants are individually accountable to their superiors and to the public. The Commission will also monitor the practices and procedures of public and private bodies to detect corrupt practices and secure the revision of methods of work or procedures that may be conducive to corrupt practices. I refer to Clause 11. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it will also ensure that all offices in the public and private sector are accountable for their organization and reputation. The Commission is also being mandated to prosecute with leave of court, and I emphasize, acts of corruption or violation of codes of ethics in cases where the Director of Public Prosecutions unreasonably fails or neglects to act on the recommendations of the Commission, or fails to prosecute within a reasonable time. You will find that in Clause 11(1)(d) of the Bill. Those people who accept bribes should be taken to court and accused and charged for encouraging corruption. It is also significant to point out that the Commission will be empowered to institute and conduct proceedings in court for purposes of recovery or protection of public property. This will ensure that all public assets acquired through corruption are reclaimed by the State or sufficient compensation is sought. To enable the Commission to effectively discharge its mandate, we are proposing to this august House a transparent and very competitive process for the recruitment of the members of the Commission, the Secretary and the Deputy Secretaries of the Commission. You will find that under clauses 16 and 18 of the Bill. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, in view of the foregoing, it is clear that this Bill is a big boost in the fight against corruption. I would urge hon. Members to support the same with or without amendments, so that we can get the benefit of their wisdom. Looking at the Bill very briefly, because this is not a new area, we have had an Anti-Corruption Commission for a long time. Administration is covered by Part II. Kindly, look at them. Financial provisions are in Part III and they are very well laid out. In addition, you will find savings and transitional provisions. The CIOC has already been talking to me, but I want to wait and hear their proposals on the Floor of the House because I do not have very serious objections to their recommendations. Therefore, I encourage the House to look at this law. The anti-corruption law is not new but now, it has been constitutionalized under the provisions of the Constitution with regard to ethics. If you look at Clause 79, for the first time in this country and in this region, the issue of constitutionalizing the fight against corruption has been recognized expressly. In addition, the requirement to provide methods of enforcement and compliance with Chapter 6 of the Constitution are warranted. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, with those far too many remarks, I beg to move and my good learned friend, Mr. James Orengo, has kindly agreed to second the Bill. Thank you.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to thank you for giving me this opportunity. But more importantly, I wish to thank the Minister for the preparation of this Bill. I know that under his docket, he has had the onerous task of bringing so many Bills before this House, and this is one amongst many that he has brought before this House.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is known that corruption is endemic in the country, and this Bill, just as the previous legislation that is in place, is meant to deal with the cancer of corruption in the country. In addition to the Constitution, we are encouraged to find a new mechanism for ensuring that corruption becomes a thing of the past. Therefore, I want to thank the Minister very much for bringing this Bill.
In supporting this Bill, I just want to make some comments. The intervention to have an anti-corruption institution was supposed to deal with grand corruption. The Commission that is in place, or any other Commission, is not supposed to deal with petty corruption. That is a matter the police can undertake. In fact, the current Director of the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission earns more money than the President of the Republic of Kenya. He has no business investigating police officers for little bribes, when the issue of grand corruption that generated the need to have this legislation in place, and even the previous legislation, is not dealt with.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, secondly, the fact that a Member of Parliament maybe involved in any misconduct is not necessarily grand corruption. I think, time and again, the Commission under its present leadership thinks that when it puts a Member of Parliament into trouble, it is dealing with corruption. That is a misguided strategy. We want to hear of the billions that have been taken away over the years, the last ten or 15 years. We do not want to hear about Kshs3 million or Kshs10 million. We want to hear about the billions; many people who have come before Parliamentary Committees--- I thank this Parliament because, at least, there is some record in form of the Public Investments Committee and Public Accounts Committee reports about grand corruption. Not a single of those cases, as recommended by this Parliament to be dealt with by the right institutions have actually seen the light of day. So, I would want to advise whoever is going to lead this new Commission, because this is going to be a new Commission, that their mandate will be to deal with grand corruption. I am saying this looking at Article 79--- Those who have the Constitution, it says--- I am not sure that really given this body that we are creating should necessarily be to deal with corruption as a criminal offence. Article 79 says:-
“Parliament shall enact legislation to establish an independent Ethics and Anti- Corruption Commission, which shall be and have the status and powers of a commission under Chapter 15 for purposes of ensuring compliance with and enforcement of the provisions of this chapter”. There is nothing in the Constitution, which says that this particular body is so unique that it must be given prosecutorial powers to deal with corruption. Indeed, when you look at the provisions that relate to the National Police Service, there is a more direct mandate given to the Police Service to deal with corruption. Article 244(b) states that:- “The National Police Service shall prevent corruption and promote and practice transparency and accountability” So, this is the constitutional question that we must deal with at some stage. Therefore, whereas I support this Bill in every respect, I hope to commend to the Minister the fact that it will be wrong to give this Commission prosecutorial authority. Even the police who investigate cases and arrest people on a daily basis do not have the power to prosecute directly. It is a donated authority that they get from the Attorney-General. Even under the current constitutional framework, they do not have that power at all. So, that would be a recommendation in respect of that particular section. I am very encouraged by the fact that we are just past that. For this again, I shall never tire of thanking Prof. Saitoti for accepting this new framework for a Police Service that is friendly and accountable to the people. Therefore, we do not want a Commission that is going to turn Kenya into a police state where somebody’s door is knocked at 5.a.m. If you have evidence against anybody including myself, if you have finished your investigations, you are allowed to go to the appropriate authority and have the charges registered. You should not every day talk about dealing with corruption when there is no record of what you have done.
In saying this, I wanted to refer to a very important provision in the Constitution, which is Article 33. It would be important for the Members of Parliament that in the exercise of freedom of expression and the current director is very fond of exercising his right of freedom of expression, that in exercising that right, there is a limitation which says:-
“In the exercise of the right of freedom of expression, every person, shall respect the rights and reputation of others” So that before you have a case against anybody, you should carry your investigations in the office and do everything that is possible. But when you come to the public, you must come with some evidence which is translated into a prosecution. Because there are some people who live by their reputation; the fact that your name has been publicized all over means that already you lose your reputation and you have to suffer the consequences. I think the Minister is well aware of some of these. I believe that this will not necessarily change our commitment in the fight against corruption. Talking even from my Ministry, I want to say that this is a cancer that we are going to deal with. It is rampant in many departments in the Government including mine and I want to say that we must have an effective mechanism for fighting corruption, but we must fight it knowing that we live in a democratic State where people have certain rights. We do not want the age of Marcathism or what was called fascism to be brought in Kenya through the back door. With those remarks, I beg to second.
Thank you very much, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I support the proposed Bill. Corruption has been one of the biggest problems in the country, but the problems in fighting corruption have been systemic. They have been systemic because each of our institutions has failed. Prosecution, adjudication, investigation, our culture and all our institutions have failed. While we strengthen this particular institution, and I want to speak to the constitutional roots for this institution which I think have been misunderstood especially in the drafting of this Bill. It is important to understand that we will finally slay this monster by reforming all our institutions by ensuring that all our courts are reformed, our prosecution is first class and by ensuring that all investigatory authorities do their duties. The fact that we have an anti-corruption entity is a realization and an acknowledgement that our institutions have failed. If the police did their bit, the courts did their bit and the prosecutorial authority did their bit, there would then have been no reason to have a specific entity dealing with this. This was really an emergency treatment. The fact that we have an entity specifically dealing with corruption issues was a realization that we have this problem and the primary institutions to address these problems have not dealt with it. It is important to move from that emergency treatment to moving the patient from the Intensive Care Unit (ICU) to the High Dependency Unit (HDU) and, finally, to the normal ward, so that our primary institutions ultimately take responsibility for this matter.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Chapter Six of the Constitution, under which this Commission will operate, is very specific. It deals with anti-corruption as regards public and state officers. It will deal with private matters. It may overreach private entities and institutions. That is important. Our Committee will probably look into the matter.
The other one is the issue of prosecution and investigation. Rarely are those two functions put together. In each of the best practice institutions all over the world, be it in the American system or the British system, from which we have borrowed, prosecution is the work of an independent prosecutorial authority. Investigations are done by a different arm, for the simple reason that you want to have oversight by an independent prosecutorial authority over the decisions and the work of an investigating authority. Rarely do you have those two functions together, because you would then go further and say that you also want an adjudicating authority.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, indeed, the failure of the Kenya Anti- Corruption Commission (KACC) was not just due to failure by the prosecutorial arm. It was also a failure of the courts. We had a situation where the High Court, in one of its judgements, said that Anglo Leasing cannot be investigated or prosecuted. The court gave an order stopping anybody from investigating or prosecuting matters to do with Anglo Leasing. That was a failure of our courts. I was even going to say that, because we have had that failure of the courts, we do not go ahead and give the adjudicating role to the KACC. My personal view is that the failure of prosecution and the failure of adjudication having been agreed are failures that need to be dealt with. They need to be dealt with by dealing with their primary institutions, and not by trying to curve out a specific institution that deals with one crime out of all the crimes that are possible in this role, and giving it that closed system. That does not mean that corruption is not a big problem, or that we should not give this institution the best support. Indeed, the best support to this institution is to get an independent prosecutorial authority to handle the prosecutions, and is not to give it all the aspects of that process.
Finally, this Bill and the Bill that we have already passed will share quite a bit in. It is for this Parliament to decide whether to have two separate legislations dealing with this Commission and its mandate, or to have one Bill that handles both. I think it would be more useful to have a central location for all the laws. I know that the Ministry of Lands has been working very hard over very many years to try and amalgamate all the laws that deal with the land sector, because it makes sense to have all the laws relating to one sector in one Act. In fact, in modern jurisdictions, all laws that deal with a broad area come under one code. If you look at the American system, you have Code 11 dealing with a huge area, so that you have all the issues touching that particular sector handled under one particular piece of legislation.
So, probably, we will be proposing that when we deal with amendments to the other law, before we handle those amendments, we should take a decision, as Parliament, whether to amalgamate or to have two separate laws. If we decide to have two separate laws, we could possibly look at them in a separate manner, so that we can have more time, as Parliament, to handle those issues which will come later.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, finally, this Bill somehow treats The Land Commission as different from the other Commissions. I think we should deal with the Commission exactly in the way we deal with all the other Commissions under the Chapter on Commissions of the Constitution – the way we deal with their commissioners, their secretaries and members of staff. On the issue of the staff members, there is a proposal in this Bill that members of staff be vetted. I do not see a very good reason for us going that way. Other than the commissioners and the secretary, who have to be re-appointed, which is what the Constitution requires, for the other staff members, we have transited staff from one institution to the next. Unless the Commission, in its wisdom, wants to jettison some staff members, I do not see why by statute, we should require that they all re-apply for appointment unless there are claims or there is good basis for worrying that there might be corruption issues within that particular Commission.. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have a vetting process for the judges and magistrates but that has a proper basis. We have a good reason for doing that. I do not see the good reason for doing these others. With those remarks, I support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also support this Bill that creates the Ethics and Anti- Corruption Commission. It is important to say from the outset that this is a new Commission. It is a Commission envisioned under the new Constitution. Therefore, it is a new body. Just like we are creating a new police force, we are also creating a new Judiciary. This is also a departure from the old body. Therefore, in this legislation, we must be able to address the shortcomings of the existing body so that we have an improved infrastructure that can be able to effectively fight corruption. That is why I am supporting those views expressed by other Members that just like we have created the other Commissions and strengthened them, we must also do the same with this Commission. So this idea of saying that the Commission must be temporary, advisory and, therefore, you leave the actual work to be done only by the employees does not auger well for a functional constitutional commission. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Commission must be strengthened and be given the core functions of supervising the secretary and employees to be able to work effectively. We have examples of commissions that have delivered like the Anti- Corruption Commission in Indonesia where the Commission is permanent. It does the core business and the employees report to the Commission. This is the kind of commission we need so that you do not have a one-man show where we have one person running around, busy addressing press conferences and demonstrating and not actually doing the real work that he was employed to do. Again, this will also bring safeguard where you will avoid witch-hunt, obsession with reporting to press what you are doing when you have not actually done your actual work and recommended prosecution to the institution that it is supposed to recommend to. Good workers are not very mouthy. They do not keep speaking every day on what they do. Good workers sit down, do the work and the work speaks for them. If you look at Ministers who do a very good job, it is not those who address the press every day. I am sorry to say so if somebody feels that---
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not giving any examples. I am just saying that people who work in the Executive arm of the Government, their mandate is not to speak on a daily basis so that they can be seen to be working. The output of the work they do will speak for itself. That is why we are saying; let the commissioners be in charge so that we do not have one person making the decision. Where you have a group making a decision, then you are able to enhance accountability. You are able to make sure that a key decision is not made by one person. You will bring accountability, avoid witch-hunt, you avoid Marcathism as one speaker has said and which is being slowly introduced. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we should look at the Bill so that we avoid infringing on the Bill of Rights. The fact that investigations are being done does not mean that the Bill of Rights that every citizen in this country enjoys are suspended. So, introduction of provisions like phone tapping by the Commission to listen on individual conversations is totally illegal. It goes against the Bill of Rights where the individual’s privacy is protected.
As Mr. Orengo said, from the very beginning, this institution was created to handle grand corruption but it has continued to thrive in this country and yet we have not seen any prosecution of grand corruption. All we hear is about junior police officers and hon. Members being followed over the Constituencies Development Fund (CDF) as if they run it when there are accounting officers in the CDF offices who are employed by the Government. Grand corruption is still thriving in the country and we have not had a single file where investigations have been done and finalized. All we hear is that the anti- corruption body is looking at procurement regulations and systems audit. This is the case and yet we have institutions in the Government that are supposed to deal with systems audit. We have the Efficiency Monitoring Unit (EMU) whose basic responsibility in the Government is to look at systems within Ministries to see whether the systems can be improved to seal the loopholes. Now the anti-corruption body has forgotten its core mandate to go and do systems audit. That is not the mandate the body was given when it was created.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the other key point that needs to be taken into account, and I am happy the Committee has said that it has looked into it, is to give the Commission the power to hire and fire the Secretary of the Commission. You cannot have an employee who you have hired but you cannot fire. So, the employee becomes bigger than you and yet you are the one recruiting. The Constitution is very clear that this Commission will have the power to hire and appoint the Secretary. The person who is appointing must also have the power to disappoint so that the employee is able to work property under the Commission. In the current circumstances, the boards have no power whatsoever. They do not even know what goes on in the Commission. They are only called when they are needed by the Board. So, they earn a salary but they have no teeth to bite and no real power to do any work. We are saying that this time we must correct that so that the Board has the power---
Order, Mr. Munya! You should speak through the Chair and the Chair is in front.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was gesticulating as I spoke but I was obviously contributing through the Chair. I think I have touched on the key issues that I wanted to talk about but the final point which I support that the Chairman of the Committee raised is that instead of hurrying to repeal the old provisions when we do not have enough time, it would be useful to re-look at them so that we can have enough time to scrutinize them properly and make sure that the new provisions that are being created are in line with the new Constitution.
With those few remarks, I support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to also support this Bill. One of the main reasons why Kenyans overwhelmingly voted for the Constitution we have today is because of the provisions of Chapter Six of the Constitution; that is, Leadership and Integrity. Kenyans wanted a break from the past. We have been disappointed although there was a legislation which was passed in this House in 2003; that is, the Anti-Corruption and Economic Crimes Act. So, Kenyans felt that they needed a more elaborate entrenchment of leadership and integrity in the Constitution which then would result into a legislation that would give rise to a more strengthened body to fight corruption in this country. That is why Article 79 of the Constitution stipulates that we form a body that will effectively deal with matters of corruption. So, tonight this House is presented with an opportunity to discuss that legislation which will put in place the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission, which will, therefore, deal with matters of what hon. Orengo called “mega corruption in this country”, and I agree with him. What we want tackled and this body to fight is mega corruption.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, before I go to the specific provisions of this Bill, I want to say that many Kenyans--- Fortunately, I realized early enough – last year – that we were let down by the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC). Even though there is nothing wrong with activism, but it is very wrong to have a negative activist in charge of fighting corruption. The person we have in this body is a letdown. I noticed it very early and some people warned me when I said that this guy is a con. We have actually been conned as a country, because we have put a wrong person in position of responsibility. Many peopled asked me: “Mbadi, do you know that this person can take you to court?” I said: “I have not stolen, I will not steal and he will not take me anywhere.” The only public money I handle is the Constituencies Development Fund (CDF). I said that let him go to Gwassi and carry out his work, but I believe that he is not doing a good job. Now you can see for yourselves. Which kind of Director of KACC demonstrates in the streets, instead of investigating mega corruption? The reason we removed Ringera was because we felt he disappointed us in fighting Goldenberg, Anglo Leasing and other similar kind of corrupt activities. We put him in office and pay him handsomely, more than double what I earn, and what we see is him flashing Kshs100,000 attempted bribe. How on earth can the Director of KACC even organize a fundraising? That is very serious. The Public Officer Ethics Act is very clear that you are not supposed to organize or participate in the organization of a fundraising and yet, he went ahead to organize for a fundraising, invited people and then claimed that the cheque he was given is a bribe. This is the case and yet he does not even show us how this bribe came about. Is it a deal that went sour? My friend has lost it.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me now come to the provisions of the Bill. I am actually happy that the appointment of the Chairman of the Commission and other commissioners will be done competitively and transparently through a panel appointed by the President and there is a set criteria of how to come up with that panel. What I would like to suggest, and I think this will come through a proposal from our Committee, is that we need to start reducing sizes of our commissions. We do not need to have nine commissioners in every Commission. It is expensive and our Committee will propose that we reduce the number to five and have, at least, two on permanent basis, so that we have maybe the Chairman or Vice-Chairman or even all of them, if this House will find it fit, on permanent basis so that they can discharge their duties as we want.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think the idea of prosecutorial powers came about because of disappointments in the past prosecutions. However, we have made the Office of Director of Public Prosecution independent. Let us allow that office to work. If the person in that office is not able to discharge his duty, let us not run away from our responsibility. We remove him and get someone who can discharge those powers. However, giving one office a lot of powers, there are chances that there will be abuse of power. Suppose you gave the current Director of KACC prosecutorial powers, how many people will now be prosecuted on flimsy grounds? Let me not go that direction.
I want to talk about the appointment of the Secretary. Once the Secretary is appointed by the Commission, the Commission should have powers to either fire him or discipline him as the Commission finds it fit within the set regulations of the law, as hon. Munya said. There is no need to allow the Commission to appoint a Secretary after which, for them to discipline him or her, they would need a tribunal. I think that is an elaborate process that is not necessary. My Chairman talked about staff transition and I also hold that view. I know that there are other people who feel, strongly, that we need to clean the entire Kenyan Anti- Corruption Commission. The question is: If, at every time, we legislate on a public body, we will be cleaning it, would it make Kenyans fear to take public appointments? I think once we clean the top, we should allow the Commission and the Secretary to hire or retain the staff as they so find fit. I want to quickly move to Clause 23 of this Bill, which talks about the expenses of the Commission. I do not understand why the expenses of the Commission are put as direct charge on the Consolidated Fund. I think we should only charge the allowances of the commissioners. However, the other administrative expenses should be appropriated the normal way by Parliament through legislation. Under Clause 26 about the Budget, it is clear that the budget of the Commission needs to be presented to the Cabinet Secretary. However, we need to put a time line. Let us make it three months before the beginning of the next financial year so as to avoid a situation where the Commission would submit a budget even two days to the end of a financial year. Finally, there are proposed amendments on the Anti-Corruption and Economic Crimes Act. Those amendments are very many. I heard one of my colleagues alluding to some of them, one being the tapping our phone calls which I do not accept. I do not want anyone to tap my phone. There is an issue of a commercial organization which will commit an offence under this clause if the person associated with it offers to give a public officer a benefit. The association here is not defined. How do we define association? In short, I propose that these amendments be suspended; the ones that are touching on the Anti-Corruption and Economic Crimes Act, so that we deal with the Ethics and Anti- Corruption Commission. Then later on, as House, we can decide to have a complete overhaul of the Anti-Corruption and Economic Crimes Act. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this very important Bill. I will start by saying that the fight against corruption in this country has been a total disappointment. This Bill gives us an opportunity to restart and clean up the process of fighting corruption in this country. If you look at all the things we are doing in pretending to fight corruption, you will see that the process itself is inherently corrupt, starting with the people we have. They got corrupted on the first day they were appointed. The argument in 2003 was that you need to pay the people who are fighting corruption exorbitantly high so that they do not fall into the temptation of corruption, basically admitting that you are hiring people who are vulnerable and susceptible to corruption. Then, you expect them to fight corruption. All they are doing is marking time, earn huge salaries, knowing that, as long as they do not ruffle any feathers, they would continue for five years and then retire with good packages. That exactly tells you why nothing much has been happening. If you were in an organization, tell me where you would pay the watchman more than the manager with the pretension that the watchman will prevent the manager from stealing? When we started by saying we needed a Director of Kenya Anti-corruption Commission (KACC) and we actually paid him more than the Chief Executive of this country so that he can pretend to be fighting corruption, that is where we failed in this fight. This Bill should now restart the process Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, let us retrace our steps. Where did we go wrong in the fight against corruption? If we trust that we are hiring judges to pass judgment on whether one is corrupt or not, why would we be paying that judge one-third or one-fifth of what we are paying the person pretending to be fighting corruption? All he does is going for harambees and being a guest of honor in various fora, talking a lot and actually doing nothing! I can tell you that, if we continue as we are, nothing will be achieved by Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission. The issue of vetting has been talked about. I believe that this is an opportunity - like we are doing with all these other institutions - let us even vet the people who are working there, from the drivers to everyone else. Why should we pay a driver at the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission a salary that is higher than the driver at the Ministry? You pay him or her more than your own driver yet, both of them just drive. What is so special about him because the driver at the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission is paid ten times the salary of the ordinary driver? This is corruption of the highest order. It is obtaining money by false pretences; by pretending that they are special; that they are doing a job; and all they are doing is actually flashing around their lifestyles. We admit that the fight against corruption was lost because of the inherent failures in the other systems. Kenyans took a decision to restart their nation afresh. With the new Constitution, we said we need a Chief Justice afresh; a Deputy Chief Justice afresh, to vet all the judges, to vet all the staff. Let us get new Members in Parliament in another five years time. Let us create all the institutions that have failed. So, why do we then need these parallel bodies, except on matters of ethics where we believe that Kenyans need a re- orientation on the ethical standings, so that they can actually come out better? It will start complete with the leaders we elect. We have just finished with the Political Parties Bill which will bring discipline to the political parties. By the time we finish all these laws that we are bringing within this week, and I am not anticipating debate, Kenyans will see that we are moving into a new Kenya. We do not need some of these pretenders to fight corruption except for purposes of enforcing ethical behavior among the Kenyan people. A lot has been said here about our grand hope; that we were going to capture the grand corruption of the past. We knew about the billions that were lost. We even engaged the services of people like Kroll Associates and they told us that we lost so many billions. Kenyans were excited that all that money will come back. But what happened? In 2003, we came here; we passed the Anti-Corruption and Economic Crimes Act and repealed the Prevention of Corruption Act. So, anything that was done before 2003 became: “You cannot use this new law retrospectively.” So, whatever Acts we have and whatever we are doing can only target what has happened in the recent past. But anything that happened in the past is as good as dead. I hope that because civil proceedings can still be brought, this new body that we are creating will help us retrace some of that money.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we saw very good progress in 2003, when the first term of the Kibaki Administration started. We saw new hope in the Kenyan people. We even saw wananchi stopping the policemen from taking bribes. We saw total change and commitment to fight corruption. That was before the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission came into being. Since then, I do not know what happened. We have only seen harassment of people, pretentions and even writing of reports to Parliament that people have been involved in recovery of some of the biggest assets, when those assets had been recovered even before the people, who pretend to have done it were in office.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we all know the frustrations we have gone through as a country in terms of horses bolting. We have been coming up and saying that the horses have bolted, but let us close the stable doors. Let us take this opportunity to start inculcating the culture of good citizenship in our children, so that by the time they become voters at the age of 18, they know what kind of leaders they want. We, as leaders, must set the pace. Election will be coming soon. I would like to, hopefully, see that by the time we pass the law, and I do not want to anticipate debate, that money will not be an issue in terms of electoral process. Policy should be the issue, so that we start renewing leadership. Once you have ethical leaders, this will cascade all the way to ethical behaviour at home, school and work place. I hope that sooner than later, we will be coming here with a Bill to repeal the Anti-Corruption and Economic Crimes Act; we do not need it anymore, because we have working institutions.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, against that background, I agree totally that the body we are creating should not pretend at any one time to be a super policeman, and ask for all those powers; we keep on hearing things like: “We could have done better if we were given prosecution powers”. It would be a major disaster given what we have seen to give such people the power to prosecute even people they have not investigated. It would be a total terror. On that basis, I support any move to amend this law to remove any reference to prosecution powers being given to this body. Recently, we were in the African Governance Seminar in Mombasa and the Director of KACC came as a guest speaker and said that asking the KACC to eliminate corruption in Kenya is like asking God to eliminate sin. I looked at him and said: So, why are we paying you if you have already admitted that you are totally helpless that you are incapable of fighting corruption? Why are you pretending that you are doing any work and drawing such a huge salary with such a huge establishment, yet you are doing nothing? It was captured live and I could see the delegates who were there, including the retired President Obasanjo, looking in disbelief and asking: Is this the person you are paying to fight against corruption in your country, admitting in front of everyone that he is toothless, powerless and it is like asking God to eliminate sin?
That tells you the challenge we have. This House has a responsibility to save this country in terms of getting it ethical behavior. I agree that we should clean all the people, vet all of them and start the war afresh against corruption through inculcating a culture of good behavior while we give the DPP, the new Chief Justice and the police, power to do their work. Eventually, the sum total of all those interventions will be a better society that we shall all be proud to call Kenya. With those remarks, I beg to support.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this very important Bill. Kenyans have always looked upon this House to pass legislation which will make their lives better. On the contrary, we have been having a problem since we started establishing institutions like the KACC which have been giving statements, threatening people and creating empires to themselves in order to increase the price of corruption in this country. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, when fines for traffic offences were increased to punish traffic offenders, the police also increased their bribes. Therefore, we need to have a legislation which will give the public confidence that they are protected by the law. The first director of the KACC is currently a Member of this House. The second one, who exited some few years ago and the current one have just been talking and doing a lot of nothing while earning a lot of money from the State. This time round, we want the members to rise to the occasion for us to have commissioners and a secretary to this Commission who know their work. We just took a person from the street and told him to head a commission without knowing what he was supposed to do there. We need to protect the rights of all the staff who are there. We need to transit them from the current KACC into the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission, which we are creating through this Bill, so that the members of the public can have confidence and apply for jobs in institutions like this. Grand corruption has never been fought adequately through the courts. The best way to fight against corruption is by deterring people from involving themselves in corrupt practices. We should educate members of the public to know what they are supposed to do, and what they are not supposed to do, especially in respect of petty offences, or petty corruption offences. These are really rampant and are seen by the anti-corruption body as a step forward; they have always been reporting them. I am told that the majority of the members of staff hover in offices of senior officers and Ministers of Government, doing a lot of nothing but gossiping and asking: “Did you see a document going round here? We are looking forward to charging a Minister but we are not getting one”. That is not their work. Their work is to prevent corruption by giving civic education on corruption, and not by trailing people and tapping phones. I wonder why the KACC even bought that equipment. What for? We need to sell it to another country which does not have it, because it does not serve any purpose. In order for you to tap my phone, you have to go to court and seek orders to do so. If you do not have the authority of a court, how on earth can you just say that you heard me speak through telephone? Through what means did you hear me speak on phone? These are criminals. I would say that the cause of some of the deaths in this country is, possibly, this practice because they track your movement. Those gadgets are for tracking people. They can track you as you leave Parliament, all the way to your house. Once they know that you are in your house, they can come for you. This is dangerous equipment. We cannot entrust in armatures, people who are not security agents, with these powers. With those remarks, I beg to support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand to support this Bill. I have read this Bill and formed the opinion that if it is enacted, it will help us fight corruption in this country much better than we have done, although we enacted a very good Act in 2003. It was good but the people who were given the mandate to fight corruption in this country politicised the fight against corruption. Sometime back, people used to say that we were politicising the fight against corruption, but the fight against corruption has now been properly politicised. We made a mistake here by appointing someone who failed in politics to be in charge of the fight against corruption. He has properly politicised the fight against corruption. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if officers from the anti-corruption agency can go to the home of a politician in the middle of the night and even look under the bed of the mother of the politician in search of that politician, it is doing politics at night in the wrong way. Those officers had gone to arrest the politician in the middle of the night claiming that he was a criminal. All of us know that the Constituencies Development Fund (CDF) cheques are not signed by Members of Parliament. I do not believe that a Member of Parliament can take over Kshs100 million from the CDF. That is money which would be disbursed to a CDF account for a period of over three years. Where would the auditors be? The fight against corruption has simply been politicised. The person in charge of fighting corruption in this country tells people to take political responsibility, yet he is supposed to investigate those people, instead of making such roadside pronouncements. When is political irresponsibility a crime? When is being politically irresponsible corruption? So, enacting this Bill will help us fight corruption properly. Corruption is still very rampant in this country, because those who looted the economy of this country--- Whatever they got from the public has not been recovered. We should be talking about the Anglo Leasing scandals, and not about small bribes being given all over the place. After all, the agents of the anti-corruption body are themselves taking bribes from people. If you go to Kisumu, people are complaining all over the streets that these anti-corruption agents are taking bribes from people while they chase police officers when they get them by the roadside. What kind of corruption are these people fighting? They have failed to recover what was looted from this country. They are, themselves, taking bribes yet they chase police officers. One day, around Ahero, they chased one policewoman into the rice field. She then collapsed in the water. They claimed that she was taking bribes. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Anti-Corruption Commission in this country has failed, as one Member of Parliament has said, to do civic education so that they tell people if you do this or that, it is corruption and we shall get hold of you. They have failed to teach Kenyans that the Act that we passed in 2003 is against Harambee .
are being done every now and then and yet he is the one taking Kshs100,000 from a Member of Parliament for Harambee and then turning around and saying: “I was being bribed”.
It is sad for this country if the people who are given the job of fighting corruption can go around to look for money from us yet they have the biggest salaries. They are getting higher salaries than the President, the Prime Minister and Members of Parliament who are being pushed and being taxed socially and also by the Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA). They should take moral responsibility. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, lastly, there is a lot of corruption in the private sector yet these people are only focusing on the public sector. This Bill addresses corruption properly in the private sector. If we enact this Bill, the Commission that will be formed with the secretary to the commission, and they follow this to the letter, we shall have fought corruption that is really a problem in this country and we shall have a better country. Thank you. I beg to support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to commend Mr. Kimunya for being patriotic. This is what we expect Members of Parliament to be talking about from the heart. For me, corruption has always been something that hurts my soul. This is because the problem with Kenya today or the cause of corruption is poverty and theft. This is because the resources that are meant to go to the people for development--- I believe half of the resources of this country goes to waste because of corruption. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, one of the greatest issues that I want this Bill to address is that from now on, this nation can move forward. We have enough resources in this country to enable us to be a net supporter of other nations if only we can save the money we have and stop corruption, put the money we have into proper development projects, avoid wastage of resources through procurement processes and so many other ways. Clause 10(b) of the Bill says:- “The role of the Commission is to investigate and commend to the Director of Public Prosecutions any act of corruption or violation of codes of ethic or either, described under this Act or any other law and Act pursuant to Chapter Six of the Constitution”. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Clause 10(d) is very good. It says that the role of the Commission is to investigate and recommend to the Director of Public Prosecution any acts of corruption or violation of codes of ethics or either prescribed under this Act or any other law enacted pursuant to Chapter Six of the Constitution. Then there is a proviso to water down the whole thing which says that provided that the Director of Public Prosecution had reasonably fails to do so. Surely, any constitutional office today should not fail. There are already laws that are applicable. So, why have something like this in this Bill? In other words, we are creating a monster. We are creating a prefect of commissions. I would like the Minister to expunge the last part because it is watering down a good Bill. It is creating a prefect of other commissions. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Clause 23(c) talks about the powers to take over or hand over investigations. This is another thing that should be expunged from this Bill. It says that contrary to any other law, the Commission may at any time in its sole description with the prior--- a public body which has power to investigate offences assume the responsibility and accountability for investigation commenced by such other body into an offence under this Act. Surely, how can we allow this Commission to take over investigation and then report to the police? Look at the issue of drugs, how many police officers have we lost because once they have reached a certain stage, people like this will come and say that they must now take over the investigation so long as they are paid so much? So, we are creating an entity of super corruption. This is something that has to be taken care of by the Minister. He should get rid of this clause because we want a proper Commission. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the issue of vetting, all the commissioners will be vetted in accordance with the law. It should also include the Kenya Anti-Corruption Advisory Board.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would not like to cut short the hon. Member on the Floor but given the interest of the hon. Members to contribute to his Bill, would I be in order to request the Chair to provide for guidance under Standing Order No.36 for convenience of the House to reduce the time to about five minutes per Member?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I believe my time is not yet over.
Order, Mr. Konchella! Proceed and make your contribution. We will reduce the time if that is the spirit of the House and make it five minutes for each hon. Member.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was talking about the issue of vetting. Of course, the Board should be vetted but I also want the Kenya Anti- Corruption Advisory Board to be vetted. Why? If you look at the people who are members of that Board, you will find that some of them are from institutions and you do not known what they are doing. They could be perpetuating corruption in their institutions and then you give them the role of advising the Board and the Commission generally on the exercise of its powers and the performance of its functions. We must know who goes into this Board. I am saying this because we need to start all over again. If this country has to come out of corruption and we move towards development, let us not only vet the Advisory Board and the Commissioners but also all the officers working in this Commission. Everybody should re-apply for his or her job. Because of their sensitivity and the need for Kenya to move ahead, let everybody apply for the job and be cleared so that we can have a Commission that will prevent corruption in this country.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. First of all, I rise to add my voice to this Bill. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I support the fight against corruption and believe that every Kenyan would like to support the fight against corruption. What is intriguing is the manner and style with which we fight corruption. Corruption is a serious offence. It hinges on the integrity and character of individuals. Therefore, before you make any public pronouncements, one has to carefully tread on what you are saying to the public without any tangible evidence. I believe that one of the biggest mistakes we made in the fight against corruption is to create an impression that when somebody is maligned in public, ipso facto, that individual is corrupt, without any proof of burden through the normal due process. This is the malady that we must cure in this Bill. I believe that such a thing like Clause 11(1) (d) must never find its room in this Bill. It must exit through the window. You cannot give somebody the opportunity to investigate, prosecute and the next thing is to pronounce judgement on you. I need not say much. Recently, we were treated to a specter where somebody pronounces you as a culprit, he prosecutes you as a culprit and sentences you to be able to take political responsibility. I think we cannot accept this height of hypocrisy. There is something else we are missing. Clause 11(1) actually talks about integrity chapter. That is in Chapter Six and Article 252 of the Constitution. Nowhere does it make any reference to private companies. I think one of the biggest mistakes that we will ever be making--- That should be the function of the Criminal Investigations Department (CID) and should never be the function of the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC). I think it is an important feature that we should look at. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if you look on page 1103 of this Bill, Clause 6(d) says: “Not engage in political activity that may comprise or be seen to compromise the neutrality of their office or the Commission.” I think the operative word is “neutrality.” I fully support this aspect because what we are now seeing is that neutrality has been thrown through the window. We are seeing a demonstration of whims; what is tantamount to lifestyle audit as opposed to the system audit. Subclause (e) says: “Not preside over or play a central role in the organization of fundraising activity.” I will support that element of this path because of what we have witnessed in the last two days. I cannot believe that a person of integrity can lure somebody to a crime. We are not in a police state and shall never allow a police state to dictate what this nation must do. We are not subject to tapping of the phones or whatever vehicles we are using. There is a due process. Go to court if you believe that, that individual is culpable. One of the biggest mistakes we made is that we made chieftainships out of this Bill by making people to be superior to others. This Commission is the same as any other Commission such as the Budget Commission. Therefore, one of the things that I would like is to expunge the prosecutorial powers. Thank you.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you. Because our time has been limited to five minutes, I will limit my contribution to one PLO Lumumba. This particular Bill had very good intentions because from the very beginning, we wanted to have a very strong Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission. But the person of PLO Lumumba has removed that not only from Members minds, but also from Kenyans. Today, I was watching as Kenyans were asked their opinions regarding the shenanigans that were going on yesterday between PLO Lumumba and one of our colleagues.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. With all due respect to hon. Shebesh, I want to be the devil’s advocate here. In her introductory remarks, she referred to the character of Prof. PLO Lumumba who is not a Member of this House and who cannot defend himself in this case.
Order! What is your point of order?
My point of order is whether it is fair for hon. Shebesh to bring in the name of hon. PLO Lumumba in her debate and yet, that man cannot defend himself in the House?
Hon. Shebesh, you know better.
What did you say, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker?
You do not have to bring in the name of PLO Lumumba in your discussion. You can just contribute to the Bill.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if you look at the Standing Orders, you will see that this is in respect of personal conduct. However, if you talk about someone who holds public office in his public conduct, then that is the business of this House.
Order, Minister! Mrs. Shebesh, we do not have a Motion to discuss PLO Lumumba in this House. So, you can make your contribution.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I hope I still have my five minutes. Can I carry on?
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Bill before us is on the Ethics and Anti-Corruption. The Commission is already in place. There are issues that have come up and they are of great concern. So, we cannot discuss the issue of Anti-Corruption Commission and fail to touch on the existing one that is in place.
Order, Mrs. Shebesh and Mr. Linturi. The issue here is not about personal conduct of Lumumba. If you can contribute on the Bill before us without going into the details of PLO Lumumba, you could do that. That is how I am being guided here.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I, therefore, imagine that I can call him the Director of KACC.
You can even mention the Director and his name, but not discussing his personal conduct. Proceed!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me just continue saying what I was saying. That is because what I was saying was really fundamental. Kenyans today, in the opinion poll that was carried out in the FM stations and televisions, which I watched very keenly, already showed that they do not have confidence with the work that the current Director of KACC is doing. The horse-trading we do in this House, sometimes, will cost us. I want us to be very clear. The man, whose name I cannot mention, came into this House and was brought through a lot of pressure because of an impression he created that he speaks good English and can articulate issues. We can now see where that has taken us. We need to reach a point where we appoint people to an office because they are capable of doing the work, they are committed and do not need money as an incentive to do their work, neither do they need cameras. What I am saying is that in the conduct of the current Director, we have been forced to really reconsider giving any real powers to this Commission. That is because we are being taught a lesson. My mother says that when you are taught a lesson, you pinch your ear and promise yourself you will never repeat that mistake again. The mistake we are promising ourselves never to repeat is to put a lot of confidence and trust in fighting a big monster called corruption in an individual who has not only let us down as a House that he is supposed to be reporting to, but also the whole country. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, where are we today? We are at a point where people want to know what fighting corruption is all about. Surely, it cannot be about karate and showing people how you know how to do karate. It cannot be about being on sting operations every time. It is really about bringing corruption to an end, bringing people to book; seeing that people are being arrested and seeing that prosecutions are going on. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as we continue to discuss this Bill, let us remember the lessons that we are learning. But let us not close our minds to the fact that we brought this problem on our own, and that we have many other commissions that we are forming. I am speaking to the Executive now. This horse trading that you are continuing to do and you did again today, let it not be a lesson that we are pinching our ears and regret.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me start by thanking the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs for the able manner in which he has brought this law into this House. In this country, corruption has become a very serious cancer that is costing us dearly. The cost of conducting business and the cost of investment in this country has become very expensive. Therefore, this law will kill the dragon that is interfering with the public life of this country. In our courts, file cases have been disappearing because of the very serious corruption in our courts. Not until you grease somebody’s palm, will you have justice in our court system. With regard to employment, not until you give money, that your son or daughter will get employment. The private sector and the public sector have really frustrated our graduates because they cannot get employment until bribes have been given. Many illegal imports have been done in this country. Importation of cars has denied the KRA revenue to be injected into our economy. If you look at the procurement process, the newly bought ferries in Mombasa are stalling in the waters because of corruption. Look at the issuance of land title deeds, fake title deeds are being issued because of corruption. I am happy that the Minister for Lands is doing something to stem that vice. Academic certificates have landed in the hands of conmen and they have been used by our students in our training institutions. Unless this Commission is really formed and given teeth immediately, this country is likely to grind to a halt in terms of service delivery. Therefore, this Commission is very important and I fully support.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I did not want to interrupt the hon. Member because of the time we have but, if I heard him right, he said that the new ferries are stalling midstream because of corruption. I would like him to substantiate how the stalling of ferries midstream is related to corruption. That is because I am not aware, first of all, of the stalling and, secondly, because of any corruption that causes stalling of ferries in the sea. I would like the hon. Member to substantiate or withdraw that allegation because that matter has actually been dealt with in this House through questions and answers.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like the Minister for Transport to remember that that these ferries were bought recently. A lot of money was invested in them, and Kenyans cannot imagine how a newly acquired ferry would stall in the middle of the Indian Ocean with passengers on board.
On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want to inform hon. Njuguna that he is very right. In fact, the Ministry even took action on some officers of the Kenya Ferry Services. The Finance Manager was sacked. That is corruption.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me a chance. I have been standing in my place for so long, but at long last, I have caught your eye.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the fight against corruption is not about this document. It is not about the laws that we will pass. The fight against corruption is the will to do away with corruption. It is the will to combat corruption, wherever it is, either up, down, or sideways. To me, it is the will. The Executive knows very well, even without this Commission, where the corruption is. The National Security Intelligence Service (NSIS), which is part of the Executive, if they collaborated with other agencies of Government, they would tell you where corruption is about to be committed, or where it has been committed. So, for me, corruption is about more than any law that we may pass. It is will on the part of the Executive to have all its agencies working together in order to combat corruption.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I thank the Minister for this document. It is a good start. For the first time, we can see, for example, on page 1056(j), the private sector has been brought on board. At least, the public sector has been on board in relation to the fight against corruption. So, if we continue to fight corruption in both the public and private sector, we will move miles in fighting this evil.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, what we cannot afford in the fight against corruption by giving prosecutorial powers to this body. For good governance, we must separate those who investigate from those who prosecute and from those who convict and hang suspects, or set them free if there is no evidence. Since the former anti-corruption bodies have failed, all the directors have failed; the whole anti-corruption body has failed, let us vet everybody and start a fresh. That is the only way to move forward in addressing this menace called corruption.
With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Bill. I just want to echo the sentiments that this Bill needs to come with minimal provisions that deal with prevention of corruption.
Having said that, I want to suggest further that on matters of education, as a requirement, holders of degree certificates from universities recognized in Kenya should have been added to mean holders of degree certificates that are recognized by the Commission of Higher Education. I know of people who have gone out and come back and proclaimed their degrees and say that those degrees are recognized in Kenya. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Clause 13(d) deals with the powers of the Commission. It says that the Commission shall have powers to conduct mediation, reconciliation and negotiation. I think this is a bad window for the Commission because I know the Commission will now be tempted to prompt people into negotiation and we will end up with corruption money sanitizing corruption. So, from the onset, I would request the Minster to consider its deletion. I also see that the Secretary would be required to have a postgraduate degree. We would better leave that. A minimum of a university degree is good, but a post-graduate degree would be an added advantage. We do not need to legislate that. I have also seen that among the requirements is that the Secretary should have some knowledge in religious studies and philosophy. I wanted to add that computer literacy would be much more useful there. On Part III on the financial provisions, the Commission funds shall consist money allocated by Parliament for the purpose of this Commission. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, part (b) says that any grants, gifts, donations and other endowments given to this Commission. I have a problem with this. If we are going to allow the Commission to receive grants, gifts and donations directly, I see that as a window for abuse. If they are to receive any money, it would be better for this money to be challenged through the Central Government through the line Ministry. I know there are some donors who would want to empower such organizations. With regard to funding, I want to plead with my colleagues that we are seized of the emotions of the moment, but it is important that we appreciate that we need a strong anti-corruption organ and as such, the funding needs to be secured. I would go by the provisions that the funds be channeled to the CFS. I must also say that there are adequate provisions here to protect the whistle blowers, but there are some false whistle blowers and no protection is being given to the victims of con whistle blowers. We need to bring that on board. With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. It is interesting that we are discussing this Bill on a very eventful day as regards to the functionality of the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission. This Bill could not have come at a better time. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the reason as to why I have been standing at night to get a chance to contribute is because I want to go on record that the Kenya Anti- Corruption Commission (KACC) and its Director are rogue and are misbehaving. It is very important that we be in a position to employ Kenyans who understand their jobs, especially if they are of big magnitude. This is not a job which commissioners are doing for free. They are doing it at a cost to the taxpayers. So, I want to suggest that this Bill must give the Board some powers to control the Director. That person must be controlled and must be controlled with sweeping powers, so that if they one day happen to be rogue, they are removed on the following day. It is sad that the work of the KACC has turned into the work of policing the CDF, Members of Parliament and Ministers. There are so many big corruption cases in this country. During the time I have been in Parliament, operations of the CDF have improved so much that we should be seeing chief officers of CDF being arrested, and not Members of Parliament being accused of corruption but without anybody being arrested. It is one thing to fight corruption and another thing to use that position to scare us. We cannot be scared. We are lawmakers. They are not. Some of those people have tried to come here, in vain. So, it is very important to make this point at this point in time. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to agree with hon. Mbadi that the commissions are becoming too many and their numbers are too big. This is one Commission which, with a good board, could do with one commissioner. The Bill provides for at least three commissioners, which is also a good number. It will have a secretariat. So, the work of the commissioners will just be policy, and not setting up a sting for a Member of Parliament. Some of the things they are doing are really lowering the dignity of the fight against corruption. I want to say that as Parliament, we have an opportune moment. We know that the work of the commissioners is saved in the transitional clauses of the new Constitution, but we must vet them to establish their character. I want to disagree with the person who said that we must protect the staff members of this Commission without vetting them. The staff members of this Commission are police officers from the police force we are trying to run away from. They are the agents and the custodians of the cooked up investigations. They are the Commission. This is a political Commission. Look at its history. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, therefore, anybody who works there, right from the sweeper to the Director, must be vetted afresh in accordance with the new dawn that is in this country. We cannot change the commissioners and leave the staff members, because they are policemen from the police force, which we have just passed a Bill to reform. This is not any other Commission. Therefore, I want to plead with this House that we agree to sweep this Commission clean through vetting for the sake of this country. We need to re-direct its attitude. With those remarks, I beg to support the Bill, and promise coming amendments.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Bill. In supporting this Bill, I must say that since we are going to create a new Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission, we are doing so knowing that the Kenya Anti- Corruption Commission (KACC) has let us down. When we got elected and passed the Public Officers Ethics Act in 2003, we really expected that what Kenyans had wanted to ensure that corruption was dealt with was going to be done by KACC. Unfortunately, right from that time to this time when we have this new Director who I hope will be out of that office in the next few days, we have been let down. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I say so because unfortunately, a body that was formed to do a good job has been misused. It has been misused because we really expected that it was going to deal with grand corruption. Unfortunately, it has sometimes been used to settle political scores. I say this because when I was in charge of the Ministry of Health and I was doing a lot to reform the Ministry, I attended one meeting at the Kenyatta National Hospital (KNH). As you know, all directors and those who attend get their per diem . I got Kshs7, 000. That is what Ringera sent his officers to come and investigate in my office. He was sent to write a statement on the Kshs7, 000; “We know you received Kshs7, 000”. I thought we had been let down. Today, we now are passing this law hoping that we are going to create a watertight law that will certainly ensure that what the body is supposed to do is done. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, in doing so, we need to ensure that we educate our people. There has got to be certain values. It just cannot be us looking at what the top is doing. We need to start this thing from the village. You know that today if a motorist is stopped by a police officer, by the way even before the police officers says, “Stop and give something”, the motorist himself or herself is already looking for her handbag so that they can be let to go. We have to look at what the Act is saying and I am happy it is talking about creating awareness and educating. For me, this is where I think we need to start; to prevent, to educate, create awareness and make people know that they can get services without having to bribe or even to give anybody money. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, when you look at this Act again, I am very happy that we all seem to be united that we are not going to allow the same body to investigate and prosecute because they can abuse those powers. If the current person who is sitting as the Director was going to be given those powers, I do not think there would be anybody sitting in this Parliament. This is a person who seems to be hell bent in ensuring that he is settling scores with people. I only learnt the other day that he also wanted to be in this House, unfortunately, he only got 236 votes. He could not make it. Therefore, we have got to be very careful how we deal with these people. When we put people in these offices, they have to be very closely monitored. I say so because if they are not properly and closely monitored, ensuring that they follow the terms of reference that we are going to give to them, they would do what we are seeing them doing. They have failed. I saw the current Director yesterday and realized that the whole world can see he was lying on what he was saying. He was saying that: “I was laying a trap”. When you lay a trap and you do not get a person, you lay again. You do not say that I now want to tell you what I was about to do. What kind of an investigator is that? Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, coming back to my own issue in the Ministry of Water and Irrigation, I wrote a very good report to this Director that somebody was about to steal Kshs652 million from the Ministry and I sent documents for Kshs430 million. To date, he has not even written one letter asking them to come forward or even started investigations. So, the kind of person that we got last year hoping that he will be the right person was a big mistake for us. I do hope that this will not happen again as we pass this law and get the next person.
I beg to support this Bill.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have finally caught your eye and I thank you. I doubt whether there would ever be any person that we will put in the office of the director to deal with issues of corruption who will ever perform. We have tried three and we are all here crying. I think we have to change the style. If you have a director or a person who is charged with this responsibility and cannot be able to arrest a person who is going to bribe him with a Kshs100,000 in his office, how do you expect that person to arrest somebody outside his door? The people of Kamukunji looked at people and gave us Mbugua and ourselves we chose the person Mbugua beat. So, we cannot be here to complain.
I think Mrs. Shebesh said that this business of horse-trading with some of these positions would continue embarrassing us. We are embarrassed now with the Kenya Anti- Corruption Commission (KACC). I am certain that we will also be embarrassed with a couple of other offices that we have filled. This is because we have shot ourselves because we did not want to do better. We knew that we should have done better but we allowed politics to take the better part of us. So, time to pay back is on our way. Until you are invited to make a contribution to a foundation and then you are told that you did something else, that is when you will realize what you did to yourself.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think many things have been said and I want to agree that anything to do with prosecutorial powers to the Commission must be deleted and reduce the number of commissioners to three. We should allow the responsibility to be shared by the Commission. We should never again entrust an individual walking on two feet with this kind of a responsibility. The issue of transiting all the staff to a new Commission cannot be allowed. We must deal with them because this is an opportunity that may not come our way again. We must make use of it now and make sure that we get on board those who can help us. If you look at the panel of people who will appoint the commission, you will find that there is a person from the civil society. If you look at Clause 6, five out of nine, we are again giving it back to the civil society so we might end up with another team like we have now. We are saying that someone needs 15 years experience – again, we have left out the youth. We need to do away with that requirement. If you look at the Third Schedule regarding the panel that is required to appoint, you will find that you have the association of professional societies of East Africa, the Architectural Association of Kenya, the Institution of Engineers of Kenya and the Kenya Medical Association. This are members of UPTAIR?? Why are you reproducing them and leaving very many other institutions. Why not bring all of them on board? You should either go with UPTAIR and leave others or list all of them. I am sure you will not have enough paper to list all of them. I think there is need to do some better work there.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, many departmental committees of this House, not even one has been acted upon by the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC). There are 210 Members of Parliament and this report is saying nothing. The best they can do is to come and look at the Constituencies Development Fund (CDF) because that way, they get better media coverage. This is ridiculous. There is a provision that says that the Commission shall have the following functions:- (i) Investigate any matter that in the Commission’s opinion raises suspicion that any of the following have occurred or about to occur. (ii) To investigate the conduct of any person that in the opinion of Commission is conducive to corruption or economic crime.
I think the drafting of this Bill must have had difficulties like we are having now; speaking at his hour in the night. The kind of things that are in this Bill are very scary and any person can misuse it. I am asking that we look at it again and if possible, re-draft the whole Bill.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this very important Bill.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, from the outset, corruption in this country is one of the biggest monsters that we have today. In the wisdom of this House, when this House discovered that corruption was becoming a menace, it decided to establish the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC). However, as we stand today, we should be asking ourselves a question. After the establishment of the KACC, has corruption gone down? The truth is the contrary. Corruption is escalating in this country. We have a beautiful country with a very good name, but if you go out of this country, every other person will tell you that the only mistake that Kenya has today is corruption. If we can fight corruption as a nation, we do not even require the Vision 2030, because this country will, definitely, move forward. How much money reaches the ground when we release it from the headquarters? How much actually goes into the real projects that we have? How much can we see outside there?
If you look at the police roadblocks in this country, it is as if they were actually put in place, specifically for matatus and buses. They are erected 50 metres or one kilometre apart. You will find the police trying to check the same matatu that has just been checked by another team of police officers. If you go to the countryside, you will find police officers going to the nearest restaurant to book lunch without a single cent in the pocket because they know that by lunch time, they will be having something in their pocket to pay that lunch. That is the kind of a nation that we have.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, in our offices, we must also have a change of mind. How Kenyans today are employed without paying a cent? How many Kenyans joined the police force and are actually employed without parting with a cent? We seem to have sanctified corruption as a nation. You will see some very innocent Kenyans being sentenced because they cannot afford to pay the lawyers. So, the majority of the Kenyans who are in prison today are actually innocent, but those who are able to buy their way out, are actually free and in the streets. We are talking about wanting to change this nation. The only way to change this nation is to fight corruption. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as we look at this Bill, we must, as a nation, ensure that we do not devolve corruption to our counties. We want to see counties that will ensure that there is no corruption, and it is possible. As we look at this Bill, the issue is not about the laws in this nation but it is about ensuring that the laws are followed. The people to ensure that the laws are followed are those officers whom we will put in position. I have heard my colleagues lament. I have also raised the same issues that when you are given a duty, you should be seen to be performing and not lamenting and reciting poetry for this nation. If a whole officer who is charged with the responsibility of eliminating corruption is lamenting, where are we heading to? We must ensure that the vetting process will be nothing close to a give and take situation. It is a question of placing people with integrity in positions so that we can move forward. I have also looked at the appointment of members. I have looked at Clause 6(1)(c). This obviously contemplated the Kenya National Human Rights and Equality Commission would be in place as one Commission. As we speak today, we have approved two separate commissions. So, we need to have an amendment to have the right Commissions. We may make the same mistake we made. I totally agree that we made a mistake in the appointment of the officers. I have seen Clause 17 on the removal from office of the Secretary. We have indicated there that a Secretary can be removed because of incompetence. I do not know whether that was there in the current Kenya Anti- Corruption Commission Act. We want to see action from the Government. We want the Government to ensure that this law is followed to the letter so that, in case a mistake like this one is made, we can remove the officer who is there. I would also like to appeal that we educate Kenyans on fighting corruption. I would like to support and say that this is a very important Bill for this nation..
Thank you Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I was watching news and when I heard hon. Members contributing to this Bill, I had to wake up and come. From the onset, I must say that I rise this night to support this Bill. I believe that corruption is a cancer. It is a disease that we must eradicate at all costs, if this country has to move forward. As I was watching the news, I was shocked to see one of the senior officers in this country charged with the responsibility of fighting corruption trying to explain how he was going to be bribed by a Member of Parliament. For us to fight corruption effectively, we must address the supply and demand side of corruption. If it is, indeed, true, that the Director of KACC has admitted, in the first place, to have received a cheque, in my view, I am almost persuaded to believe that he must have asked for it. It is only that it is so bad in the sense that he is the person who is supposed to be investigating people and yet, he cannot investigate himself. I want to say that absolute power corrupts, and corrupts absolutely. We have given that gentleman a lot of powers and, maybe, the kind of big talk that he exhibits all over is somehow, in my opinion, a way of trying to cover up for some of the inadequacies that the Kamukunji people found in him, that he did not qualify to be a Member of Parliament that he wanted to be. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me also say that when you find people climbing up the ladder and forgetting that the ladder they used to climb to the top may, at one time, be required to climb down, that becomes a serious problem in the mindset of the individuals that we charge with public responsibilities. I am saying that because when you look at the conduct of those officers, especially when they are doing their own investigations--- We want to get people into that office who have the respect for the rule of law; people who respect for various Acts of Parliament that have been passed so that, when they are conducting investigations, they know that they are bound by certain rules of procedure. The audits that are carried out in this country are procedural and system audits. We have not yet amended the Public Audit Act that provides value for money audits. When I hear people complaining all over---You find some of those people questioning when a clear procurement process was put in place and a contract was given for say, a construction of a dam or a classroom, and people start wondering: “How can this class cost so much money?” That office also requires serious capacity for them to conduct that kind of investigation because they do not have quantity surveyors, engineers - both structural and civil - and architects for them to do that kind of work. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is my opinion that those people have forgotten what they are supposed to do. We have given them a lot of work to do, but they have not been doing it. For example, we have given them tips. I chair the Public Investments Committee. We have so many recommendations which we have submitted to them. We have told them there was corruption at Kenya Railways Corporation and NSSF, among others. We have told them: “This is the scanty information that we have got. Because you have the powers to investigate, kindly investigate and if you find those people culpable, then take the necessary legal action against them.” They have not done anything. What we find is an officer trying to pretend to be working so well to the extent that you find him in the streets demonstrating against Ministers and Members of Parliament. Then you wonder: If this is the person who is doing investigations--- For him to investigate, somebody must have already formed an opinion over this Ministry. What kind of a hearing or fair judgment will be given to matters that are presented before him in the case of trying to evaluate the allegations against any one particular Minister. I want to suggest that when we are picking such officers, we must have officers that have basic office etiquette. They must be people who must understand and know how offices should function, so that we do not have activists in some of the very sensitive positions of public offices. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not wish to talk too much but I only want to point out the fact that we have talked so much about ethics in this Bill. But when you look at the definitions, we do not see what ethics are. What is the meaning of ethics? I want to say that the meaning of ethics is a very important definition and it must be put in this Bill. That is because part of the functions of the Commission under Clause 11(1) relate to State officers. Number 2 is to develop a code of ethics. So, in other words, we are giving that body the powers to act as a prefect to all the State officers without controlling what ethics means. So, I would expect the Minister to really define ethics so that we control the role of that body. The functions of that body are going to actually interfere with the professional bodies to the extent that it is going to monitor the enforcement of code of conduct of members of professional bodies established under any law. I think ethics should actually be part of corruption matters, so that we do not go interfering with the Law Society of Kenya and the Institute of Certified Public Accountants. This body may just go there and tell them you must do this. As Parliament, we have our own code of ethics but we have given this body a leeway to enforce those ethics without really limiting it. I am saying we must define the code of ethics.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to join my colleagues in saying that it is ten years down the line since the first Anti-Corruption Commission in 2003; it is high time we really monitored and evaluated to see whether there has been achievement or not. How much have we spent on anti-corruption bodies, and how much have these bodies returned as the money that has been stolen?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I heard many colleagues criticize the current Director, but I want to say that the problem is ours, and we must take responsibility. We were supposed to do our job to vet the people who were supposed to do this job. As Parliament, we must independently do so. We should not say everything that comes is good, just because we do not want to be seen to be anti-reform; we just “yes”, “yes”, “yes”. We must stop being a yes Parliament. We must do the job that we are supposed to do, so that we get the right people who can do the job. It is very unfortunate that one year down the line, after the appointment of the Director of KACC, everybody in this House, including myself, seems to be disappointed. Fighting corruption is enforcing a human right. If corruption has taken place, that is a human right issue. Also, the people who are suspected should have their rights defended. I do not want to wake up one day, and hear that somebody’s name being mentioned by somebody who is supposed to produce evidence. I believe we should tell anybody who becomes the Director of KACC next time that the first time the name of an individual features, it must feature in court, so that we avoid a situation where my name is mentioned just to get publicity.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have seen the transitional clauses on the staff. I think we should agree that for the senior staff, including the Director, we must do a fresh advertisement, so that we get the right people. I believe there is a problem in the current system.
With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, ninaunga mkono Mswada huu. Ghadhabu ya Wabunge hapa inatokana na mambo ambayo yametendeka. Kwa mfano, nilipeleka ripoti kwa Kitengo cha kupambana na Ufisadi na nikasema kuwa pesa fulani zilitumiwa vibaya kwa kununua shamba. Maofisa walitumwa katika sehemu yangu ya uwakilishi Bunge na wakafanya uchunguzi lakini kwa sababu ilikuwa haihusu Mbunge, ripoti hiyo iliwekwa kando na mpaka leo, sijapata jawabu. Katika nchi hii, kazi yetu ni kutengeneza tume baada ya nyingine. Tunaajiri askari baada ya mwingine na mwishowe, tunabaki na askari ambao hawafanyi kazi. Pesa nyingi zimeibiwa katika taifa letu na tangu tuunde kitengo cha kupambana na ufisadi, hatujasikia hizi pesa zikitajwa hata siku moja. Tunasikia kuwa Mbunge fulani ambaye ameandika cheti cha Kshs50,000 au Kshs20,000 ndiye anayefuatwa lakini walioiba pesa ambazo zimeangamiza na kuhujumu uchumi wa nchi hii wako huru na wanatembea na kufanya wanavyotaka. Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, tumesikia mambo ya Triton. Baada ya kuweka watu ambao tuliweka afisini na kumlaumu Ringera kwamba hafanyi kazi na kubadilisha askari huyo na kuleta mwingine, aliyeenda pale hakupatwa na akili hata kidogo ya kusema kwamba pesa zimepotea kupitia Triton na kuwapatia Wakenya ushahidi kuonyesha anafanya kazi. Kimya, kimya! Jana, mtu aliyewekwa katika kitengo cha kupambana na ufisadi, mwili wake unazungumza kwa mafumbo akisema kwamba: “Mimi sungura mjanja, nimepata habari kwamba nitahongwa, nikakimbia nikajificha na nikaweka vifaa vya habari kumnasa anayekuja kunihonga”. Ni nani ambaye anastahili kumwambia anayemhonga kwamba hafanyi kazi namna hiyo? Angemwambia: “Wewe nenda nyumbani, tutafanya uchunguzi na kama hauhusiki, tutakuwachilia”. Kwa nini, kwanza, alikubali na yeye ndiye mtu anayefaa kukamata wafisadi? Anakubali pesa ziletwe na akijua zinaletwa, anaruka na kuanza kucheza kwenye vyombo vya habari. Hatutaki mchezo wa paka na panya katika taifa letu. Tunataka watu wakipewa kazi wanaifanya kwa bidii na kutoa uamuzi unaotakiwa na Wakenya. Watu wa Kangundo walitenga ekari 1,600 walipokuwa wakigawa shamba lao na wakasema kuwa kwa sababu wako karibu na Nairobi, itakuwa ni ya matumizi yao ya baadaye. Hivi leo, kuna kampuni zaidi ya mbili ambazo zimepewa barua za kumiliki shamba hilo kwa miaka 93. Nimeipeleka ripoti hiyo kwa Waziri wa Ardhi na anaangalia. Cha ajabu ni kwamba, mbali na kuwa hiyo ripoti nimepeleka katika kitengo cha kupambana na ufisadi, sijasikia jambo lo lote. Mimi ninalipa kodi ambayo inatumiwa kulipa watu ambao hawana kazi ya kufanya. Waziri anataka kutuambia kuwa hiki kijikaratasi kitafanya kazi? Tutaupitisha Mswada huu, lakini ningetaka Waziri arudi nyuma na atafute nguvu za kuuma. Hakuna meno ya kuuma kwa sasa katika kitabu hiki.
Kwa jambo la nidhamu, Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda. Umesikia hon. Muthama akiita huu Mswada kijikaratasi. Huu Mswada hauwezi kuwa kijikaratasi.
Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, shida ni kuwa hangeweza kuvuka. Katika kusema kijikaratasi, ninasema Mswada huu umeandikwa maneno mazuri lakini inatakikana kuwe na nguvu za kuweza kuuma na kufuata sheria zilizoko ndani. Ninaunga mkono mhe. Mbadi kuwa hata makamishena walioko hapa ni wengi. Tunafaa kupunguza na kuweka kiasi. Kwa hayo machache, ninaunga mkono.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the Bill. You will agree with me that Kenya is the best policymaker in the world and the poorest policy implementer also in the world. We go out for bench-marking and whenever we ask for such policies we are given photocopies of our policies. I want to encourage this House to pass these Bills and follow them up. Let them become part of our culture and be practised in this country. In this country, we have drug barons, land grabbers---
Thank you, hon. Magwaga, for supporting the Bill for a few minutes.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank you but you are very unfair to me.
Order, hon. Magwaga! It is time for the Mover to reply. I am very fair to you.
I now call upon the Mover to reply.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is yet again another milestone. I want to, especially, thank hon. Members for taking such a very keen interest in this Bill. The time now is a few minutes to midnight, and you can see the enormous interest on the Floor of the House. This is a demonstration that although we are in agreement that the war against corruption has technically been lost in this country over the years, the law makers of Kenya would like to have a system that can truly fight corruption and eliminate it.
It would not be necessary for me to go through each of the remarks made by hon. Members. I want to thank you very much and very sincerely. I want to mention three things. I wish those of us here who have the experience in these matters, like hon. Kioni, to listen to me. The original Anti-Corruption Act, Chapter 65, had, in fact, provided that the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission of the time, which we replaced in 2003, had powers to prosecute so long as it obtained the consent of the Attorney-General as per Section 26 of the retired Constitution. We killed it.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, my Ministry’s cabinets on Anti-Corruption are full of skeletons of a continuous series of attempts to fight corruption. I would like to suggest that Article 79 of the Constitution that Kenyans gave themselves as a gift last year is the only provision of its kind that I have found in any constitution in the world. I would suggest that as we wait for the Third Reading of this Bill, out of interest and, you do not kill the spirit to fight corruption merely because we made a mistake and recruited a Director who has proved unsatisfactory to you and to the country. It is like shooting the messenger merely because he has come with a message. I agree with hon. Midiwo, given the events of the last few days. I think it is some magic that we are debating this Bill tonight, in view of the events of the last two days. A Director who was recruited through a transparent process on the Floor of the House can go out there, and instead of fighting corruption, he is saying; “So-and-so offered me a bribe. I laid a trap but they escaped it”. This is something which my Ministry is going to add in the cabinets of skeletons of failed attempts at fighting corruption. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, therefore, I want to suggest that before we go to the Third Reading of this Bill, hon. Members look at page 1064, Clause 11, so that they understand the efforts of wonderful people like hon. James Orengo, and the Hon. Deputy Prime Minister, who presided over the Cabinet Sub-Committee meetings on this Bill. It took us four sittings of the Cabinet Sub-Committee to agree. We shot down a lot of amendments but hon. Musalia Mudavadi, as our Chair, in the end left the proviso you see in Clause 11(d) – a priviso I suggest you look at before we go to the final part of this legislation. Why do I say so? I am saying this humbly. If you look at Clause 11(d) and the proviso, that is a power that is given to confront the Director of Public Prosecutions. You have said one man to a woman. But look at Clause 11(k) at the bottom of the same page; it is a power that is given to this Commission to institute and conduct proceedings in court for purposes of recovery of protection of public property, that is civil litigation. I want to assure you and I know you do not have an objection and that is why I am raising this. I trust you to think very hard. You have the power, you have the ability and God has given you the capacity to think and realize that under Article 156 this power is also vested in the Attorney-General. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, therefore, I would suggest and I will be suggesting to the Committee that we look for a formula to find a window such that subject to control of the court, this Anti-Corruption Commission in special circumstances can be able to advance prosecutions the way you have advanced civil litigation. However, of course, as you know, I will abide by your decision. I beg to move. Thank you.
Hon. Members, it is now time for interruption of business. The House is, therefore, adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, 24th August, 2011 at 9.00 a.m.
The House rose at 11.59 p.m.