Order, Hon. Senators! Could we confirm if we have a quorum? Yes, we have a quorum. So, we can proceed.
Yes, Sen. G.G. Kariuki. Sen. G.G. Kariuki is not here? Where is Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale? You gave notice.
Yes, Madam Temporary Speaker, but it will come under Statements.
Okay. Today we are supposed to debate the Petition from Ms. Wanjiru Gikonyo on repeal of the National Government Co- ordination Act, 2013. Are there any Members interested in deliberating on it? That notice was given and granted by the Speaker last week. Yes, if nobody is interested, I refer it the Committee on Devolved Government. There is another Petition from Mr. Joseph Kalinga on Tarmacking of the Kibwezi- Kitui-Mwingi Road. The notice is supposed to be given by Sen. David Musila. Is he in the House? TARMACKING OF THE KIBWEZI-KITUI-MWINGI ROAD
Since Sen. Musila is not in the House, could we then move on to the next Order? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Madam Temporary Speaker, I beg to give notice of the following Motion---
Madam Temporary Speaker, we are at Order No.6 on Notices of Motions.
That is what he is doing!
Is he moving or---?
He is giving a Notice of Motion. He is in order. Proceed, Sen. G.G. Kariuki.
Madam Temporary Speaker, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:- THAT, aware that over the last twenty years thousands of people in some counties in Kenya, especially within the Rift Valley, Western, North Eastern and Coast regions have suffered displacement due to politically and ethnically instigated violence, violation of the nation’s sovereignty, natural disasters, resource-based conflicts and forced evictions; noting that during displacement people lost lives, livelihoods and property with some families losing their bread winners; aware that thousands of families live in deplorable conditions and their economic life has been disrupted; appreciating the efforts undertaken by the government, donors, civil society groups and individuals to alleviate the suffering of Internally Displaced Persons (IDP’s) and resettle them; concerned that the problem of internal displacement has been worsening and that the budget for feeding IDPs currently living in tents continues to grow by the day and that the number of IDPs continues to rise, partly aggravated by individuals posing as IDPs; further concerned that the country has no reliable, comprehensive and disaggregated data on IDPs; the Senate urges the Government to profile all the current Internally Displaced Persons and to take urgent and immediate steps towards resettling IDPs and finding a lasting solution to their plight. Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker.
Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, give your Statement.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I rise to request the Chairman of the Committee on Devolution to bring here a Government Statement relating to the issue of the Transfer of National Government Functions to County Governments. Madam Temporary Speaker, yesterday, the 19th of June, 2013, at a Summit meeting with governors, the President is reported to have directed that all Government functions that are supposed to be discharged by the county governments be transferred enmasse to the county governments with effect from 1st of July, 2013. Madam Temporary Speaker, this brings to light a serious constitutional matter found in Section 15 of the Sixth Schedule of the Constitution. With your permission, it reads as follows:- “Parliament shall, by legislation, make provision for the phased transfer, over a period of not more than three years from the date of the first election of county assemblies, from the national government to county governments of the functions assigned to them under Article 185.” Madam Temporary Speaker, Article 185(2) emphasizes the following:- “A county assembly may make any laws that are necessary for, or incidental to, the effective performance of the functions and exercise of the powers of the county government under the Fourth Schedule.” Madam Temporary Speaker, the country is aware that not many county governments, if not none at all, have had any deliberations on the legislative agenda of their respective counties. The President is going ahead and is directing that all these functions go to the county governments with immediate effect en masse . Could the Chairman clarify what informed the President’s decision to direct like this and whether the Executive is deliberately bypassing the Senate in its exercise, in spite of the provisions of Section 15 of the Sixth Schedule of the Constitution? We would like the Government also, through that Statement, to give Kenyans an assurance whether this transfer of national Government services to county governments will be done strictly in adherence to the provisions of this Constitution – which, obviously, they are contradicting – to the provisions of the Transition to Devolved Government Act, 2012, and the provisions of the Public Finance Management Act? Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker.
Is the Chairman on Devolution Committee in the House? Majority Whip, could you, on behalf of the Chairman, give an undertaking when that Statement will be issued?
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I know the Chairman has travelled out of the country. However, I request the hon. Senator to give him two weeks to issue a comprehensive Statement on that matter.
Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, two weeks? That will be after the implementation dates, as directed by the President.
Madam Temporary Speaker, I have no problem giving them two weeks or even more on condition that the Government takes an undertaking that if they are not going to give this Statement, especially an assurance before the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale and, maybe, Majority Whip; it is my opinion that the urgency of that Statement is valid. However, at the same time, I am aware that you might not be able to revoke a directive issued by the Presidency. Therefore, I rule that we get that Statement on Thursday, next week. That will still be before the implementation date. I think that is sufficient time. I also take note that the Senate Majority Leader is not there to give us the Senate Business for the following week. In his absence, the Chief Whip should undertake that responsibility. Proceed, Majority Whip. BUSINESS OF THE WEEK COMMENCING TUESDAY, 25TH JUNE, 2013
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. Hon. Senators, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order No.43(2), I present to the Senate Business for the coming week. On Tuesday, 25th June, 2013, the Rules and Business Committee will meet at 12.00 noon to schedule Business for the Senate for the next week commencing Tuesday, 25th June, 2013. The Senate will continue with the Business that will not be concluded in today’s Order Paper. In addition, the Senate will conclude debate on the Motions by Sen. Catherine Nobwola concerning the establishment of Graduates Enterprise Fund. The Senate will also debate Sen. James Orengo’s Motion on review of legislation that may undermine the authority and functions of county governments. The Senate will also commence debate on the Motion by Sen. Kipchumba Murkomen on the transfer of functions relating to development of institutions of learning to county governments. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Next Order. On the Order on Motions, I want to state that I have already granted leave to Sen. G.G. Kariuki to move his Motion today, which he just gave a notice.
Madam Temporary Speaker, I must thank you very much for according me this opportunity to move this Motion, which I think I need to read it first before I start.
Madam Temporary Speaker, I beg to move the following Motion:- THAT, aware that over the last twenty years thousands of people in some counties in Kenya especially within the Rift Valley, Western, North Eastern and Coast regions have suffered displacement due to politically and ethnically instigated violence, violation of the nation’s sovereignty, natural disasters, resource-based conflicts and forced evictions; noting that during displacement people lost lives, livelihoods and property with some families losing their bread winners; aware that thousands of families live in deplorable conditions and their economic life has been disrupted; appreciating the efforts undertaken by the government, donors, civil society groups and individuals to alleviate the suffering of Internally Displaced Persons (IDP’s) and resettle them; concerned that the problem of internal displacement has been worsening and that the budget for feeding IDPs currently living in tents continues to grow by the day and that the number of IDPs continues to rise, partly aggravated by individuals posing as IDPs; further concerned that the country has no reliable, comprehensive and disaggregated data on IDPs; the Senate urges the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker.
Yes, Chief Whip, what is your point of order?
Madam Temporary Speaker, is the hon. Senator in order to say that our IDPs have given birth to criminals? It would be wrong and a bad impression to say so. I know there are some of us living in good environment, but we have given birth to criminals.
Madam Temporary Speaker, I wish to dismiss that as a cheap statement---
Order, Sen. G.G. Kariuki! Please, take note that you can only respond to the point of order. You cannot say you dismiss it. Give us points that will negate that statement.
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Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker for controlling my feelings about this issue. I come from where this problem is. If the gracious lady had not left the Chamber, I would have explained to her how I think we are encouraging criminals. This is by keeping people in tents and allowing them to give birth to children who have no opportunities. What do you expect of those children to become? They have to look for their livelihoods. That is why I am saying they could be criminals. However, not all of them are criminals. Some of them have relatives who take them to school. But for the majority, those are breeding centres for criminals. I beg to repeat that. The moment we herd people together in an area and fence them in, they have no facilities to feel like human beings. When children from such areas grow up, they will want to fend for themselves. How do they do this? They may get their food, for example, from Sen.(Dr.) Khalwale. It is not because these people have no brains. They exercise their brains by looking for what to survive on. Madam Temporary Speaker, on the issue I was addressing of people who were moved from forest areas, during the 2007/2008 post election violence crisis, 663,991 people were displaced. From this number 350,000 sought refuge in some other areas. Another group of 118,000 disappeared to our neighbouring countries such as Uganda and Tanzania. Can you imagine a situation where people get out of Kenya; a country known to have one of the best systems of Government? It is considered as the best democratic country in East and Central Africa. Kenya is considered by other countries as the best example in the region. With all those kinds of expectations, we had people running away to Uganda where there were perpetual wars. We have never had the kind of wars that Uganda went through. It was such a shame for our people to run away to Uganda. This was quite embarrassing. They could have run away to Tanzania, which is a bit stable. But is this a credit to our leadership even if they went there? We are living in very interesting times. We fail to understand ourselves. We are not capable of investigating ourselves so that we understand the kind of political environment we are giving to this nation. Our political life is simple. At any time we either want a Kikuyu, a Luo or a Luhya President. That is what we concentrate on. Would you tell the people in camps that we attained Independence in 1963? They would prefer that that Independence never happened if they are going to continue living in the camps. If I was in their place, I would do the same. I would hate to hear that there is something called Independence if my mother and other family members are living in a tent. Madam Temporary Speaker, I hope that good minds like Sen.(Dr.) Khalwale and other hon. Senators will manage to describe the situation better than I have. I am older than Sen. Nyong’o, but he is my Professor and my teacher.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker.
Professor, what is out of order?
Is the hon. G.G. Kariuki, who is my student and my friend, in order to call me Nyong’ when my name is Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o?
Oh my God! I do not know that.
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Order, Sen. G.G. Kariuki! Could you correct that?
Madam Temporary Speaker, he did not allow me, as a student, to describe him properly because of fear that he might take action against me. But I know that he is called Prof. Anyang’-Nyong’o.
That is a good student, indeed!
Madam Temporary Speaker, since I left out the word “Professor”, that is why I am suffering.
The Professor has gone through this kind of life. People who are friendly to books try as much as possible to understand the cause and effect of a situation. But in this case, this issue is highly political. Madam Temporary Speaker, God will bless us if we forget politics now and do something for Kenyans. This problem is all over the country. If you go to the former North Eastern Province people have been moved from one area to another. Many other problems have arisen through disarmament. In the process of disarmament, people disappear from their own areas and become IDPs. You cannot allow people to have guns for 30 years and then you wake up one morning and start disarming them. Who are you deceiving in this country? It is not possible to disarm them. They will voluntarily give you old guns which are non-functional. Then you come out and say that the Government has managed to recover 20,000 guns. I have been a Minister and I know all these intrigues. It is high time we declared our faith. We have to change and become new people. Kenya is blessed because we got a Senate of intelligent men and women who are elderly enough in politics. They can forget politics and think of the future of their children and country. It is not how much power you want to wield more than others. We want to take care of our children. Madam Temporary Speaker, if you come to Nairobi, a lot of displacement has taken place. For example, a person is allowed to stay in a place for over 20 years, but one morning, City Council askaris supported by the Administration Police officers come and throw them out of that area. What would you feel? Those people did not go to stay there because they had left their fabulous homes. They are there, because they have no alternative. I think time has come for us to understand the causes of this violence. Partly, private developers are also not to be blamed because it is their property and you allow people to come and settle there. Where has the law of trespass gone to? Nobody should come and settle on your property if there is a Government. But if you have nothing, but corrupt officials of the system, what do you expect? This matter is so critical that I challenge my brothers here that we have to lead and show the way and make sure that we know what Government is. All these problems come about because of corruption, abuse of power and politicization of security and administration agencies. When any displacement occurs, the rights of the affected persons are infringed as they are forced to live in situations that do The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I also thank the Mover of the Motion because I can see that he has done thorough research, only that he has been out of Parliament for many years. I support and second the Motion. Even though the Mover of the Motion described the IDPs the way they were described by the former Attorney-General, Amos Wako, I would want to personally describe IDPs as people who may have been shifted from one place because of political reasons and they have never gone back to the same place. In that regard, I would say that the Maasais, particularly have suffered a lot. This is known to all Kenyans. In fact, if you go to many areas of this country you will wonder how we got the name Olomuruti and yet the Maasai do not leave there. If you went to Ol Kalou where we used to have shrines and our cultural activities taking place all the way from the 1890s, up to now, nobody has bothered to consider them. I believe with the new Constitution which addresses the historical injustices, we are going to be there. Madam Temporary Speaker, as I support this Motion, the Mover mentioned very strong and good words when he was describing our President. The whole country is so happy to have Hon. Uhuru Kenyatta as our President. For sure, we are seeing---
This is true! Ooh, not everybody?
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. Is the Senator in order to stand here and tell this House that President Uhuru Kenyatta has been accepted by all Kenyans and yet we know very well that we have the CORD coalition which opposed Uhuru Kenyatta’s presidency and we continue to oppose it?
Madam Temporary Speaker, I may not say that this is my personal opinion, but that is what democracy presupposes. After you go to the polls and the majority wins, even those who lost the elections have to join those who won in building the nation. I agree with what he says because that is his personal opinion, but the fact remains that Hon. Uhuru Kenyatta is our President. He is also one of the most focused leaders we have in this country. That is why this morning we had prayers of healing this nation, so that the IDPs do not stay in the tents. What has been causing people to be displaced will not arise again.
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Order, hon. Senators! If you feel that something is out of order, simply stand up, you will be given an opportunity to point it out.
Madam Temporary Speaker, as I stand here to second this Motion, I will also in future come up with a Motion to also consider those who were displaced earlier, so that we may not have problems like the ones we are having at the coast. The hon. Senator mentioned how in the 1960s people were chased from Lamu. Knowing very well that in Mombasa and the entire coast region we have a lot of problems as a result of people being displaced, it is an issue I feel that we need to look at comprehensively. With regard to settling these IDPs, I think it is now quite possible because we have a President and a Deputy President whose communities were most affected, especially in the RiftValley. It was the Kikuyu community which was fighting with the Kalenjins. Since we went to the elections, the two communities have reconciled.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. Is the distinguished Senator for Kajiado in order to suggest that the 2007/2008 problem only adversely affected the Kikuyus and Kalenjins when all Kenyans know that just about every community lost something and even more so, the Luhyas were displaced from Trans Nzoia? We were butchered and our property was destroyed. The Luos in Naivasha, Nairobi and Nakuru were also displaced.
Madam Temporary Speaker, when I mentioned the two communities, it was just an example. There were quite a number of communities which were affected.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. Is the hon. Senator in order to continue provoking this House and issuing statements which suggest that the problem of IDPs only affects two communities? Is he trying to prove that because the two communities are in power that is why there were no displacement of people in 2013? Is he suggesting that unless the two communities are in power, there will be no peace in this country and that we will continue having IDPs?
Madam Temporary Speaker, I am here to support the idea of IDPs. I gave an example of our good leaders who will solve this problem. I do not want to isolate any community because all of us are here to find a permanent solution to this problem. This is the time when the Government needs to act and take a major roll call in all IDP camps in various parts of this country. The Government should settle them in areas where they will live with dignity. I second the Motion.
Madam Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am sure that it is much easier for everybody to use that name. It is, indeed, my name. Sen. Wamatangi is a name that I was given by my community because of trying to change the livelihoods of people in tandem with the Motion we are discussing, by focusing on alleviating poverty and solving problems that affect communities. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I stand to support the Motion by my friend, Sen. G. G. Kariuki, Senator for Laikipia, a veteran politician, former Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security in the Nyayo regime. I will begin by debunking one falsehood. Yes, democracy says that when elections are held, winners are upheld while the losers accept the elections as legitimate. However, that only assumes that the elections were free and fair and truly competitive. When the elections are not competitive or semi-competitive, the consequences do not follow because choices have consequences. When it is non-competitive or semi- competitive, it does not follow what has been said here.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. Is the Senator in order to continue to cast aspersions when he knows very well that the Supreme Court of this land said elections were held in a fair and competitive manner? We all know the results. We cannot continue to belabour that point. It has been ruled and a decision made and accepted by all.
Stick to the point of order. What is out of order?
Madam Temporary Speaker, it is in order for him to continue to mislead the nation that a decision made by court is not binding?
I need to give a ruling on this. Senator Wamatangi. I appreciate your concern, but this is a debating Chamber. Rules of debate cannot subject a debater to gagging. So, let us hear Prof. Anyang’-Nyong’o. Let us sustain the Debate.
Madam Temporary Speaker, hon. Wamatangi was advancing an argument, but not a point of order. However many times you shout a lie, it will never become the truth. The truth in Africa today – I am not referring to him. I am just making a statement and so do not feel guilty – is that we are having leaders, who once they lose, persist to stay in power. This has happened in Zimbabwe, Cote d’Ivoire and much nearer home, there was a recent experience. Let me now come to the issue of IDPs. I congratulate my friend, G.G. Kariuki. He knows and I know that there is one fundamental cause to the IDP problem. That is the issue of land. Unless we deal with the issue of land and have proper land reforms and redistribution, we will continue to have IDPs. Even if we think that currently there is an impasse, this is not a solution. As it has happened elsewhere in history, impasses usually wait for an hour when they again rear their ugly heads in commotion. Therefore, I would like to urge that as we seek to settle the present problem of IDPs which we have even in my own county--- There are people who in January and February 2008 were “bussed” out of various parts of Kenya. There was, indeed, a camp in Limuru where we picked people and took them to Kisumu. The only difference between IDPs in Nyanza and those that you will find elsewhere is that they were absorbed within the family systems. They were promised some Kshs10,000 per family. I The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. This is, indeed, going out of the way. The hon. Senator stood to contribute to a Motion on resettling of IDPs, but instead, he is taking a long route to create an atmosphere that is not conducive. It would be in order for the Chair to confine him to the debate that he is contributing to. It is also not in order for him to continue to live in denial.
Denial about what? Can you be specific?
Madam Temporary Speaker, that there is a leadership in this country, in the name of President Uhuru Muigai Kenyatta.
Sen. Anyang’-Nyong’o, stick to the Motion, but we are not gagging you and there should not be any attempt at all to do so.
Madam Temporary Speaker, I did say that there is, indeed, a leadership in this country in the name of Uhuru Muigai Kenyatta who inherited the size of a province in terms of land. He can use it to resettle the IDPs. That is the fact that I am making. I was saying that 500,000 acres of land---
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. I am raising this point order from the bottom of my heart. I think that it is not in order for us to discuss about the late former President Jomo Kenyatta and also the land ownership of the current President, because it is not only him who owns land. There are many other leaders who own land. So, he should desist from dragging the names of these leaders.
Sen. Anyang’-Nyong’o, while you should proceed, take note that you cannot extensively mention the President in this Chamber, without---
Madam Temporary Speaker, I do concur that there is a minimal number of people who inappropriately own land in this country, which The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. Apparently I have heard Sen. Anyang’-Nyong’o very well talking about the cousins of whoever. I come from Nakuru County. I believe that each and every person in this country came from somewhere. I was born in Rift Valley and do not know any other place that I can call home apart from Rift Valley. So, if we start talking about that in this House, then some of us came from very far away. So, I would pray that the Senator refrains from that kind of talk.
Sen. Anyang’-Nyong’o, take note that we are all brothers and sisters in this nation, as you proceed.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. Are the Senators who stood up here on points of order in order to tell this honourable House that the crimes that were committed by people who were given the mandate by Kenyans to protect them, cannot be talked about or mentioned? The Constitution that we have today gives us the freedom of speech. It must be noted that the first President, the second President and the third President are the owners of the biggest chunks of land in this The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. Muthama, you are now debating. Hon. Senators, I think that we have to bring some sanity to our debate. Let us debate with restraint and also limit points of order. Instead when you are given time to speak, you can then negate the points raised by another speaker.
Madam Temporary Speaker, thank you for protecting me. Actually, they have eaten into my time. But when you say something which is true, it pricks people. So, I am not surprised. Madam Temporary Speaker, the point that I am making is that if we are going to solve the IDPs problem - I am just being very truthful – we must understand the genesis of the problem. You cannot run away from it because it exists in history. The genesis of a problem must be limited to a certain time. In this regard, we are not talking about since Kenya became a colony and since it became an independent nation. We are more concerned now about how these issues of IDPs start after Independence. It is more reasonable. If we do that, then we shall know what kind of policies we have - Sen. G.G has asked for the kind of Government policies that realistically address this IDPs issue. But if we are going to do it by pretences, excuses and so on, it will be there perpetually. We may hold elections in future, but if we do not have serious policies on land reform and redistribution, which take into account the historical antecedents of land conflicts in this country, we shall be going nowhere. This is as true as it is that Tuesday follows from Monday. Madam Temporary Speaker, secondly, at the moment, power politics in this country is very much associated with land ownership. That is why it is also going to be very difficult to solve the IDPs problem realistically. This is because we have very vested interests in solving the land question. Unless this Senate can confront that truism, we shall sit here and be partisan one way or the other and not get an answer. That is my honest opinion. This is because we seem to be offering a very simple solution, which politicians always offer, which says: “We have the correct person who will do it.” That is not enough. You must say whether that correct person has the tools for doing what you are saying that he is going to do. Those tools must come from conviction and proper social relations in society. But at the moment, for example, the very leaders being applauded now, are busy in politics that will take us back to the 1960s; buying and inducing people with money to join them on their side. This is not going to help. We will go back to the one-party system which will not help us at all.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. Is the Senator in order to drag the names of the leadership of this country in an inappropriate manner and actually peddle information that has no bearing or backing in law or anywhere in this country?
Madam Temporary Speaker, the words “peddle” and “drag” are very popular with Jubilee Senators, but I do not think that they are very important words in the English language, in the issue that we are talking about today. We are talking about land redistribution and IDPs. If we talk about that and think that, that is The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker.
Please allow the Senator to conclude.
I am almost completing, then you will have time to raise points of orders even in the bar outside.
Order Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale! We are in the Senate, the Upper House of Parliament.
Madam Temporary Speaker, one of the things that I think is important in the spirit of Sen. G. G. Kariuki’s Motion is the concern for social deprivation. I talked about this yesterday in this House and I think we really must have a feeling for it as Senators. When somebody lives in a shelter made of cellophane, it is really the lowest level of existence. Right now Nairobi is very cold. Some of us are dressing in three-piece suits for the first time, the standard dressing during the Nyayo period, but nonetheless---
Your time is up.
I beg to support.
Madam Temporary Speaker, I also rise to support this Motion. When I look at history and I want us to take this as leaders in the Senate knowing very well that the Constitution also gives us the mandate to look at our boundaries and knowing very well that we have Internally Displaced People (IDPs) across the whole country and not just in the Rift Valley and Central provinces. When we talk about IDPs, the issue of land comes in and it becomes emotional. I want to challenge the Members of the 10th Parliament and I know many of them are here and others were Ministers in this country and when you are a Minister, you are supposed to do your duty in terms of serving all Kenyans. Madam Temporary Speaker, when you look at the issue of IDPs in this country, it goes way back to 1963. At that time, we were struggling with structures of Independence and building a country. As we speak today, when you look at what happened in 2007 and when we visited Rift Valley, we realized that we needed to address the root cause of our The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Madam Temporary Speaker, first of all, I want to thank the honourable Senator for Laikipia for moving this very important Motion concerning the citizens of this country who have continued to suffer without a place called home. While supporting the Motion, I would want to propose and move and amendment. I beg to move that the Motion be amended by deleting the words “over the last 20 years” appearing in the first line and substituting thereof the words “since 1895.” And further by deleting the word “current” appearing in the second last line. Madam Temporary Speaker, the history of IDPs in this country is long and it is not restricted to 20 years. It is on record that when the colonialists set foot in Kenya and admired our land, they started scheming how to forcibly remove citizens from their land. Some of those families which were displaced from the colonial times are really the original IDPs, some of whom have never been resettled. Madam Temporary Speaker, this is not only restricted to one area. If you went to the former Coast Province and the Rift Valley, and particularly Trans Nzoia where I come from, the same thing happened. Families were deprived of their land. Some of them were moved to forests and later on, the same forests where they took refuge were gazetted as Government forests or national parks and people have continued to be displaced. Some Kenyans had to seek refuge in foreign lands. We have Kenyans who used to be residents of Trans Nzoia and they were forced by the colonialists to move to Uganda where they have never been accepted as citizens of that country. Some moved to Tanzania and beyond. The Constitution which we overwhelmingly passed took cognisance of the problems of those citizens. The National Land Commission has been given the mandate to look into the past injustices visited on Kenyans. Madam Temporary Speaker, it is not proper for us to ethnicize or personalize issues of land because they are emotive. In the Constitution, we know that a person has a right to own land anywhere in this Republic but what we need is to objectively, in a unified manner, look at the problem of the IDPs right from the beginning. Perhaps that is where we have failed. Now, coming to the recent IDP resettlement programmes, the Government has tried, but I think sometimes the manner in which it has been done has not been well informed. Arising from the conflicts that we had, some IDPs went to camps and some went to be accommodated by relatives, neighbours and so on. There are communities that do not believe in being in camps. This is a category that looks like it was not taken care of and we need to take stock. I thank Sen. G.G. Kariuki for bringing this Motion, but let us revisit and do a proper census of all these IDPs. Madam Temporary Speaker, the Trans Nzoia communities are known to be welcoming. They have welcomed people from other communities to live there, yet they are the ones who suffered most from colonial deprivation of land. We have the original IDPs and the recent ones that also came about because of the recent conflicts. If you go to Kabolet and Teldet camps, there are IDPs. No IDP from Trans Nzoia has been settled yet we have willingly received and settled IDPs from other counties. In a situation like that, how do you expect the residents of those counties to feel? Are we not unnecessarily setting citizens against each other? If there is any land to be shared – the Constitution The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. Now that the Mover of the amendment has successfully done so, before we give it an opportunity to be seconded, I would like the Chair to make a determination. Before any Motion is debated in this House or even in the Lower House, a determination must be made whether that Motion is constitutional or not. I want to invite you to look at Article 67 of the Constitution of Kenya on the National Land Commission. It says:- “There shall be established the National Land Commission whose function would be as tabulated”. But I would like you to look at function No.2 (e) which says:- “The National Land Commission shall initiate investigations on its own initiative or on a complaint into present or historical land injustices and recommend appropriate redress”. Madam Temporary Speaker, I am saying that you make this consideration, because, to open up this discussion to 1895 as he says, you are now taking the national debate into an area where documentation of facts might not necessarily be authentic. In so doing, we could engage in debate in this very serious House, which could destabilize the country. I beg that we continue with the debate in the original form so that we uphold the provision of the Constitution in Article 67 (2) (e) and do so cognizant of the fact that when the people who sat in Serena thought these things and that is why we had the Truth and Justice and Reconciliation Commission (TJRC). The reason why it was created was that we speak to these things but then not stock the flames.
Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, I have made reference to the Article you have pointed out and it is my opinion that this Article does not limit the kind of debate that we are undertaking. It talks about initiating investigations on its own initiative or on a complaint into present or historical injustices. The word The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you Madam Temporary Speaker. As I thank Sen. G. G. Kariuki for coming up with this timely Motion, I would like to support and second the amendment as proposed---
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker
We shall grant that point of order because you are the Mover of the Motion. What is out of order, Senator?
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. I invite you to look at the Standing Order which I do not have here. The Standing Order says that no one is allowed to amend any Motion or whatever is presented here to include something that is outside the scope of the main Motion. The Chair will look at that Standing Order because we are getting out of the scope of the Motion.
On a point of information, Madam Temporary Speaker.
Sen. (Dr.) Machage, just allow us one minute. Let us take that point of information. .
Indeed, what Sen. G. G. Kariuki has alluded to is very important. The Standing Order say; “No amendment to a moved Motion shall be made that renders the Motion materially different.” So, the intention of his Motion was not where this amendment is taking it. Basically, the amendment is rendering the Motion materially different. Therefore, if Sen. Ndiema is in the mood of creating such a Motion, he can always file his own but allow us to conclude this one of Sen. G. G. Kariuki. Tunaenda wapi na mambo ya mwaka wa1895 ?
Senator, further to the Standing Order you have given us, I would like to draw your attention to Standing Order No.54. It is my opinion that the amendment is not changing the substance of the Motion. It simply allows us to use the word “historical” and to backdate the Motion to 1895 as opposed to having it as from 1963. You have not given us enough reasons to convince the Chair why you want the word “history” to be limited to 1963 and not, for instance, 1959. You have not convinced the Chair and it is my opinion that we are not deviating. The amendment is within what is allowed by the Standing Orders. Can we proceed with the Seconder?
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. When a lady sweeps her house, she does so properly. She does not stuff some dirt in a corner, sweep The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. I have a problem in the manner we are proceeding with the debate on this amendment. The substantive Motion reads in part; “The Senate urges the Government to profile all the current Internally Displaced Persons and to take urgent and immediate steps towards resettling IDPs and finding a lasting solution to their plight.” The use of the word “current,” to me, by any stretch of language or imagination should not be seen to refer to any IDPs whether from 1895 or 1920s. “Current” refers to those who are present right now. Anybody talking about an amendment which takes us out of the word “current” cannot be within the Standing Orders of this House as far as amendments to the Motion are concerned. Therefore, I would like us to revisit this issue on whether this amendment is properly before the House before we proceed.
Senators, I want us to be very sober with regard to this. Let me have your attention. If somebody said that we need to give a list of all the current patients or people suffering from malaria, would that limit us to people who contracted malaria only under the current dispensation or to people who also could have been suffering from malaria for the last 20 years and who are still currently suffering from malaria? Where would you classify those people? I still want to believe that the word “current” cannot be construed in this instance to mean only those who are currently living as IDPs. If we have a 90 year old man or somebody who is 120 years old, who is an IDP but was displaced in 1950, does that disqualify him from being considered when we are resettling IDPs? You must convince the Chair. In my opinion, when we talk about the word “current”, this simply limits us to have updates of whatever we are referring to. However, this does not limit us on where to start the investigations. All these points you are bringing are points you can bring during debate when you are given an opportunity and they will all be factored in the final statement that will proceed from the Senate. However, I believe that we cannot limit or leave out our old men who are also IDPs. When we are settling others, we should not be telling them that their status, as IDPs, is not current and, therefore, we will not sort them out as a Government or that we are sorting out people who are 40 years and below because they happened to be IDPs in the last 20 or 10 years. We now have to proceed with the Seconder of this amendment. It is in order. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Madam Temporary Speaker, thank you for that protection. I am only seconding the amendment and with good reasons. While a pandora’s box may have been opened, yes, it had to at one point in the history of this country because the truth cannot be concealed always. Historical injustices have to be addressed as they are. We can only talk about them to seek solutions. This is the House of the Senate. We have to appear to protect and defend every Kenyan, whatever their status or source of origin. We have to be seen to be non-partisan in protecting Kenyans in all counties. Let us pick one issue of the Mau Mau. These are people who our former colonizers have seen the need to compensate. You know what the Mau Mau uprising was all about in the early 1950s to the late 1950s. We cannot exclude these people who fought for our Independence, lost their land and limit ourselves to a period that addresses our small communities. We will be making the Mau Mau case with the British totally irrelevant. We have to be seen to say that these people lost their land and that their land was taken by colonial masters. The community that some people may be focusing on suffered a lot; the Kikuyus. The people of Mount Kenya suffered a lot because they were evicted by the colonial masters at that time. We cannot just bury our heads in the sand. Some of the families of these people are still alive. Some of the old men are also still alive. They see their land being cultivated by other masters. We cannot bury our heads in the sand. We must address this issue in totality. It is known, whether we talk about it or not. The people of Baringo have taken their time to go to court over the years to try and regain their land of origin; their home. They won the case and yet the Senate purports to bury its head in the sand and not to address the issue. The truth is that unless land issues are addressed, we will never go anywhere. This also affects the people of Coast Province because of the ten miles coastal strip. We cannot refuse to address that. They were forcefully evicted from those places. Their land was given to the colonial masters at that time who allocated their land to the Zanzibar Government. Now that we have Independence, these people have not been considered and have not been given back their land. They are squatters in their own land. We, from other areas, have occupied that land. That is cultivating anarchy. We must address that as the Senate. We must address it. When hon. Sen. G.G. Kariuki was a Minister in the late 1970s, my own people from Migori were evicted from Trans Mara. We have people now living in marshland. They always pray to God not to send rain when the rest of Kenya is praying for rain because God forbid, when the rains come, they have nowhere to put their heads. Do you want those people to be forgotten? There are IDPs in Trans Nzoia; the Sabaots. If you go and resettle other IDPs in those places without considering the others who were there, will they accept it? So, really, expanding and enlarging this period to start from 1895 is really to address the genesis of the problem. You can only treat a disease if you know the cause. Otherwise, we will operate the tumor out and then after a few years, it grows. We will keep on operating and finally, kill the patient. That is exactly what is going to happen if we do not, as the Senate, look at this issue as a problem that needs to be addressed holistically with wisdom that is expected of this House; of course, while upholding that respect to our country and not punishing other people for injustices that were done by The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Hon. Senators, you can now understand why this is rightfully referred to as the Upper House, because of the thorough manner in which you interrogate all issues. Senators, before I propose the Question, I want to revisit the issues that have been raised, because specific reference has been made to the Constitution. Because of the supremacy of the Constitution, let us revisit what was raised by Dr. Boni Khalwale, under Article 67(2)(e) on the Land Commission which reads:- “to initiate investigations, on its own initiative or on a complaint, into present or historical land injustices, and recommend appropriate redress;” The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Madam Temporary Speaker, I rise to oppose the amendment. Madam Temporary Speaker, I oppose the amendment because I believe that the Motion itself has been brought in absolute good faith. I also believe that the amendment has been brought in absolute good faith. But it is my opinion that as we debate, we also need to look at the end result. What do we want to get from the Motion? Like you have rightly said, we are the Upper House and, hence, as we debate the Motion, we also need to project and see where we want to rest the case. So, if it will form the basis of a complaint, then it should be something that we can deal with. Madam Temporary Speaker, by making an amendment that will draw back the timeline up to 1895, we are bound to also discuss and bring up issues and facts that cannot be substantiated or supported even by documents. For example, if I come and make an allegation or contribution, which is just my word against history, that this happened to a particular group, me or certain community in 1897, there is no way that anyone of us in this Chamber today or even our grandfathers can attest to the truth. There The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. Is Sen. Wamatangi trying to mislead this House that there are no documents on historical injustices in this country since 1895? There are plenty.
Madam Temporary Speaker, my point is that even though there could be some documents, there will even be no system of verification or authentication of those documents. But as Sen. (Dr.) Machage said, indeed, we can dare to open the Pandora’s Box.
On a point of information, Madam Temporary Speaker.
Do you wish to be informed, Senator?
Yes, Madam Temporary Speaker.
Madam Temporary Speaker, I would like to inform my very good friend, Sen. Wamatangi, that we have the National Archives which has plenty of all these documents and information that we can use for interrogating these facts.
Madam Temporary Speaker, I take that information well. But I will still stand by my point that, yes, we do and may have some documents, but it is almost impossible to call up to absolute convictions that any fact adduced here in this House, over this Motion, when it is referring to events that date as far back as 1895, can be absolutely authenticated or affirmed beyond reasonable doubt. Madam Temporary Speaker, having said that, Sen. (Dr.) Machage also said that, indeed, we can dare open the Pandora’s Box and see what is inside there. Bring it on! But if we open that Pandora’s Box, we also must remember that we should open it with responsibility. This is because we must also realize that we are leaders in a nation that is looking at us. Whatever debate or discussions that we hold, have got overbearing reverberations and consequences in the country and population. As a responsible Senate, we should only discuss and pass Motions that we can stand by. Madam Temporary Speaker, I oppose the amendment to the Motion.
Asante, Bi Spika wa Muda. Ningependa kuwashukuru waliozungumza mbele yangu na kuunga mkono mabadiliko yaliofanywa kwa sababu nchi ambayo haina historia haiwezi kustawi. Lazima tuangalie yaliopita ili tubadilishe historia kwa vizazi vijavyo. Bi Spika wa Muda, katika swala hili la watu ambao walifurushwa makwao, ni lazima tuangalie kwa historia. Watu wa Pwani walifurushwa kutoka kwao na Mwarabu na mpaka leo hawajawahi kupata ardhi yao kando ya bahari ya Kenya. Kwa hivyo, tukisema tuangalie tu ya sasa, basi tutakuwa tunasema kuwa tuponye mmoja na wengi waumie. Hiyo si haki au sheria ya Kenya. Kwa hivyo, naunga mkono turudi nyuma itakavyowezekana. Tatizo hili lilitokea hasa kuanzia mwaka wa 1992 kama tatizo la kisiasa, lakini tuwache siasa. Tusizingatie ni Wakenya wangapi walifurushwa makwao na makaazi yao na kuwekwa hohe hahe na kulala barabarani. Tukifuatilia hayo, basi mazungumzo haya hayatakuwa ya kisiasa bali ya kuboresha maisha ya Wakenya kwa kutatua matatizo haya. Bi Spika wa Muda, pili, tukianza kuangalia mambo ya kuboresha au kutatua matatizo na ardhi peke yake, nafikiri kuwa hiyo italeta vurumai. Unapozungumza mambo The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Madam Temporary Speaker, I want to thank you for giving me this opportunity. I like what my colleagues in the Senate have been saying that indeed this is the Upper House and this is the place for mature debate. This is a place where we should remove emotions from our debates, look at issues very realistically and in a practical manner knowing that our core business and the very fundamental reason why we are here is to ensure justice for all Kenyans irrespective of where they come from. It is from that approach that I would like us to look at this Motion. Nobody is saying that those who have suffered historical injustices should not be given one form of redress or another. We should remove that from this debate. We have too many issues in this country. Even within central Kenya, there are historical injustices which might require to be resolved. This particular Motion is talking about a specific category of people and indeed, there have been very many Motions like this dealing with certain categories of people. So, we should not deny those people their rights or justice because we have not dealt with other categories. We should be able to deal with some categories today and others tomorrow. Madam Temporary Speaker, the issue of IDPs gained currency in this country after 2007/2008 post-election violence. There are people who were displaced in 1992 but we did not think of resettling them then. There are also others who had been displaced before. Do not forget about the mass displacement of the Maasai Community by the British in 1904 to 1911. A whole population was removed from Laikipia and brought to Kajiado, south of Rift Valley. Nobody has talked about taking the Maasai Community back to Laikipia because they were also displaced. They even went to court in 1914. We The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker.
Yes, Sen. ole Ndiema?
Is it in order for Sen. Murungi to insinuate that there are some communities which are being discussed here negatively, because we are discussing about individual IDPs regardless of whichever communities they come from? Is he in order?
Madam Temporary Speaker, I am seeing a number of Motions which have come here saying “These communities were highly privileged; there are more things there than in the others; these ones are like this---” Most of these IDPs also tend to come from a certain place, and if you read in between the lines, some people could feel that, maybe, the reason why we are expanding the debate to 1895 is because we do not want this particular group of IDPs to benefit. So, Madam Temporary Speaker, let us not always have in mind these groups where we come from and all that. Let us talk about Kenyans as Kenyans. And if you are disadvantaged, let us correct that situation in the Senate. I thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker.
Sen. Janet Ong’era.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I rise to support the Motion and also support the amendment that was raised here by Sen. ole Ndiema. Madam Temporary Speaker, for the first time in the history of this country, we are faced with a monster and in order for us to slay that monster, we must see how big that monster is. We must see whether it is the size of this Senate; or is it the size of the whole Kenyatta International Conference Centre (KICC)? But we cannot be told that we look at the monster in a very small, microcosm way. We must slay the monster, and the monster The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I want to go into the mind of Sen. G.G. Kariuki, and it is best stated if you look at the last sentence where it says:- “ The Senate urges the Government to profile all the current Internally Displaced Persons and to take urgent and immediate steps towards resettling IDPs and finding a lasting solution to their plight.” That is all that he is looking for; he is looking for action. We cannot be debating for nothing. Now, that action he is seeking seems to be misunderstood by Sen. ole Ndiema. Sen. ole Ndiema wants to ride on this Motion by addressing historical injustices, and he is perfectly right. Soon, we must address historical injustices. But, please, Madam Temporary Speaker, allow me to oppose this Motion so that we can give Sen. ole Ndiema an opportunity to draft a proper Motion on historical injustices so that we can fix these urgent issues of IDPs. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
What is your point of order, Sen. (Dr.) Machage?
Madam Temporary Speaker, we have no quorum.
Clerk-at-the-Table, could you confirm if we have quorum?
We actually do have a quorum. Proceed.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker---
We actually do not have a quorum; we are 14. So, can we not continue---
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. Before you ring the Division Bell, you probably want to guide me a little bit; I might be confused. Is it not that if the Speaker who is in the Chair is not the substantive Speaker, then in terms of determination of quorum and even voting, the Speaker who is in the Chair is part of the House? If that is true, then we are 15!
Well, first and foremost, whenever any Senator – whether it is the substantive Speaker or not – is on the Chair, he or she does not form part of the quorum. Secondly, we are now even one Senator less; so, we do not have a quorum. Ring the Division Bell.
Hon. Senators, we have not been able to raise the quorum and, therefore, the Senate stands adjourned until Tuesday, 25th June, 2013 at 2.30 a.m. The Senate rose at 5.25 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.