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{
"id": 1399221,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399221/?format=api",
"text_counter": 211,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wambua",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13199,
"legal_name": "Enoch Kiio Wambua",
"slug": "enoch-kiio-wambua"
},
"content": "I thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I take this opportunity to thank Sen. M. Kajwang’ for reviving this important debate on county boundaries, by bringing forth the County Boundaries Bill, 2023. As Sen. Orwoba has rightfully said, this is a matter that has engaged debates on this Floor severally. It has precipitated conflicts in many counties across this country. For acknowledging that this Bill is meant to provide for proper county boundaries, make provisions for dissolution of disputes among and between counties, I thank the Senator for coming up with the Bill. I will open my debate on this matter by also acknowledging that county disputes are serious disputes. They pose an existential threat to peace, stability, order and national cohesion in any country, not just in Kenya. It is worrying that as we speak today, we have running conflicts between counties, numbering not less than 20. The most recent being the Kisii and Nyamira counties dispute, based on a desire by respective county governments to collect revenue from towns that are declared disputed. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I come from Kitui County, which has a running dispute on boundaries with Tana River. To put the record straight because there are people who like seeing disputes where they do not exist, or just assume there are disputes, Kitui does not share a border with Garissa. There has never been any dispute between Kitui and Garissa counties in as far as boundaries are concerned. We do not share a boundary, but we share a boundary with Tana River, but on the way to Garissa. It will go on record that this matter needs to be resolved as fast as possible, as is the case with all the other disputes in other counties. Why do I say this? I say this because the recent disputes over boundaries are largely precipitated by a genuine legitimate desire by counties and their governments to collect revenue and raise their own-source revenue in order to give services to their people. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there is a standing dispute today on where exactly Konza City lies. Is it in Makueni, Kajiado or Machakos counties? Some of these disputes are easy to resolve if there is goodwill to resolve them. I have just glanced at the First Schedule of the proposed Bill by Sen. M. Kajwang’. I dare say to my brother, Sen. M. Kajwang’, that the First Schedule is the more reason we must review our boundaries. When you look at how those boundaries are captured and even drawn - and I have taken this Bill and read through it - I cannot locate the boundaries of Kitui using this First Schedule. It is not just Kitui, but all the counties. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1399222,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399222/?format=api",
"text_counter": 212,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wambua",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13199,
"legal_name": "Enoch Kiio Wambua",
"slug": "enoch-kiio-wambua"
},
"content": "Mr. Temporary Speaker, just to make reference to it, maybe I should start with the first county, 001, Mombasa. I am not very sure because Sen. Faki is not here, but he is coming back. The boundary of Mombasa defined in the First Schedule as commencing at the centre of the mouth of Mtwapa Creek on the coastline of the Indian ocean, thence due East to the limit of the territorial waters of the Indian ocean. The descriptions of these counties leave no doubt to an average reader that somebody is just deliberately creating confusion. Boundaries and definition of boundaries should be done in simple and straight language that anybody reading where they are, will know where it is. When we are told that Kitui County- that is where I want to go- and I am the elected Senator of Kitui County serving my second term, I have difficulties understanding that Kitui County commences at the confluence of the Rojewero (Mackenzie) Tana River, thence south-easterly by a straight line to the trigonometrical beacon Katumba; thence continuing south-easterly by straight line to the beacon Kandelongwe. This is “Greek”. Why not just define our boundaries using features and language that is easy and straightforward to understand? I know that Sen. M. Kajwang’ is of course not guilty of this. He has put it here so that he may buttress his reasoning for coming up with a better system of dealing with our counties and the boundaries. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to briefly comment on Part 1, Part 2 and, of course, the First Schedule of the Bill. The opening of Part 1 of the Bill says in clear simple language that this is an Act of Parliament to provide for the county boundaries, to provide for a mechanism, resolution to resolve county boundary disputes and give effect to Article 188. That is what I want to comment on. Article 188 of the Constitution begs a provision for a procedure to be followed in establishing boundaries in resolving disputes arising from boundaries and in the composition of an independent commission that is supposed to effect resolutions on boundaries and boundary disputes. Clear reading of that Article of the Constitution is that one cannot alter boundaries or pretend that they can resolve permanently, county disputes in the absence of an independent commission. This Bill seeks to give effect to the formation and operationalization of that independent commission. How I pray that when we get there, the commission that will be set up, which procedure is provided for in the Bill, would truly be independent. I wish Sen. Cherarkey was here because I heard him talk about the people who should form part of that commission. He made reference to age, saying that 20-year-olds should not sit in this commission; it needs people who have institutional memory, which fine. However, age should not be an absolute consideration for people to qualify to sit in that commission. Experience and longevity could be a hindrance to development. When people have entrenched interest in a matter, at times they are unable to think straight. We cannot say that because a man has lived in a county for 20 or 30 years, they understand it. The more you live in a county, the more you have entrenched interest in the county and the boundaries, and the more likely for your views to be blurred by personal interest. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1399223,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399223/?format=api",
"text_counter": 213,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wambua",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13199,
"legal_name": "Enoch Kiio Wambua",
"slug": "enoch-kiio-wambua"
},
"content": "Since the commission is the key and answer to the challenges we face on boundaries as a country, it must be constituted by credible people of integrity, who command respect across the board. I refer to Part 2 of that proposed Bill. Let us talk about the boundary mediation committee. Clause 5 of Part 2, Sub-clause 2: I urge Sen. M. Kajwang’ to rethink the wording of Clause 5 (2) (a), which reads- “a person under subsection 1(a)(c) shall submit the request to the Senate together with evidence that notice was given to every county government over a county whose boundary is a subject of a dispute referred to in subsection (1) addressed to the governor and the county executive member of the county.” Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have a challenge with that provision because what the Senator is proposing in that section of the Bill is that the disputes that are forwarded to the Senate must have gone through the office of the Governor of the respective counties that disputes. I have a challenge with that because in the Constitution of Kenya, 2010, the roles of representation and protection---"
},
{
"id": 1399224,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399224/?format=api",
"text_counter": 214,
"type": "scene",
"speaker_name": "",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "(Sen. Sifuna consulted Sen. M. Kajwang’)"
},
{
"id": 1399225,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399225/?format=api",
"text_counter": 215,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wambua",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13199,
"legal_name": "Enoch Kiio Wambua",
"slug": "enoch-kiio-wambua"
},
"content": "Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, Sen. Sifuna is disturbing Sen. M. Kajwang’. I want to help him in the Bill. The role of representation and protection of counties and county governments and their interest is assigned by the Constitution to the Senate and the Senators. I want to convince Sen. M. Kajwang’ to consider that as a requirement, if a matter of a county dispute is going to be presented to the Senate of the Republic of Kenya, then the Senator of that County must also be notified in writing by whoever it is that is bringing that matter to the Senate. I say that because in that provision that the Senator is making reference to, Clause 5(1)(a), in fact it is contemplated that the governor could be the one requesting. If he is the one requesting, he cannot also be writing to himself, telling himself that he is bringing this matter to the Senate. The governor should be given a responsibility, duty or obligation to notify the Senate or the Senator of the dispute that they are bringing up for resolution in the Senate. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, lastly, this matter of county boundaries and disputes is bigger than what the Senator for Homa Bay has captured in his Bill. I am happy because when he moved this Bill, he made reference to the decisions that occasioned the creation of counties in this country. I have gone on record many times on this Floor, and in other fora, saying that there is nothing scientific about the creation of counties in this country. You cannot put your finger on any science, to say that we have a county called Kitui, Makueni Machakos, Kiambu and Nyeri. There is nothing scientific in that decision. Those were political decisions. These political decisions seemed to favour certain areas and regions in this country at the expense of other areas and regions. That is why today you have a county called Kitui, which is 30,496 square kilometers in landmass, and we have a county called The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1399226,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399226/?format=api",
"text_counter": 216,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wambua",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13199,
"legal_name": "Enoch Kiio Wambua",
"slug": "enoch-kiio-wambua"
},
"content": "Kirinyaga with a landmass of 1,400 square kilometers, and both are called counties. I have no problem with Kirinyaga County. I have no problem with Lamu County. I, however, have a problem with an impression being created that those counties, the number 47 counties, is a magic number and you cannot touch it. You know, these counties are 47, you cannot touch this. That is a wrong premise to begin in trying to entrench devolution. It is known and Sen. Cheruiyot will bear me witness, that I appeared before his Committee, the National Dialogue Committee (NADCO) as I also did before other committees of Parliament and pushed forward the agenda of the creation of Mwingi County with a reason. When counties were created in the Constitution 2010, the decision to leave out Mwingi County was amorphous. It was an amorphous decision because Mwingi District was created at the same time that other counties and districts were created in the 1992/1993 Financial Year. However, simply because Mwingi County was not gazetted as a district, it missed out on the creation of a county. I would urge Sen. M. Kajwang to be magnanimous because he knows the journey we have walked with him to help the people of Mwingi through this Bill. We met them and received memoranda and presentations from them to enrich this Bill. We listened to them argue their case for the creation of their county. That is how we legislate I like it because I know Sen. M. Kajwang is a man who listens. He can listen to good advice and then that matter will be brought here and people will decide which way to go. I will be okay if a proposal is brought to the Floor of this Senate requesting the creation of Mwingi County and the Senators of Kenya say no to it. I will be okay with it because I will have done my duty to represent the interests of my people and the decision lies elsewhere. It is not my decision to make. It is the decision of the House to make and we will be bound by the decision of the House. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, with those remarks, I submit."
},
{
"id": 1399227,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399227/?format=api",
"text_counter": 217,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wakili Sigei",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Sen. Chimera."
},
{
"id": 1399228,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399228/?format=api",
"text_counter": 218,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Chimera",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Asante sana Bw. Spika wa Muda kwa kunipa fursa hii niweze kuchangia katika mjadala wa swala hili lote la Mswada huu wa boundaries za kaunti zetu. Kwanza nianze kwa kumshukuru sana na kumpongeza kaka yangu Sen. M. Kajwang kutoka Kaunti ya Homabay kwa Mswada huu. Nafikiri ni wazi kwamba Mswada huu ni wa maana sana katika hali hii yetu ya kauti zetu katika nchi hii. Nafikiri unafahamu ya kwamba kaunti tofauti tofauti ziko katika hali ya migogoro hususan kuhusu swala la mipaka. Mimi mwenyewe nikiwa Seneta kutoka Kaunti ya Kwale na nikiwa wakili vile vile, niko mahakamani ninapo zungumza hapa kwa niaba ya wananchi wa Kijiji cha Kanjaocha katika Wadi ya Samburu Chengoni eneo ubunge la Kinango Kaunti ya Kwale, wakizozana na Kaunti ya Kilifi kuhusu mpaka baina ya Kaunti ya Kwale na Kilifi. Vile vile, nikizungumza hapa, Kaunti ya Kwale ina mgogoro ambao umekithiri kwa wingi. Kaunti ya Taita-Taveta imeweza kuvamia ule mji wa Mackinon. Mimi tangu nizaliwe, na sitaki kusema umri wangu lakini nimeishi kwa miaka mingi. Sio mingi vile The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1399229,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399229/?format=api",
"text_counter": 219,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Chimera",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "lakini sijaona siku hata moja Kaunti ya Taita-Taveta imeweza kuja Mackinon na kusema ule ni mji wao. Lakini leo hii, Gavana wa Kaunti ya Taita-Taveta, Mheshimiwa na mjomba wangu na pia rafiki yangu sana, Mhe. Andrew Mwadime, kwa kejeli na majivuno na kwa kujigamba, ameweza kuvamia mji wa Mackinon na kuchukua kodi kwa wafanyibiashara mbalimbali kutoka Kaunti ya Kwale. Nimeona kwa First Schedule ya Mswada huu kwamba Kaunti ya Kwale ukiangalia sehemu ya pili imesema kwa kifupi kwamba Kaunti ya Kwale imeanzia upande wa kushoto katika kona ya Mackinon Road. Hii ni wazi kwamba Mswada huu umeweza kuleta mfumo wa kisheria. Sisi kama viongozi katika kaunti tofauti tofauti, tukiwa na swala la mjadala kuhusu mipaka ya kaunti, tunaweza kurudi kwa sheria tukaipekuapekua na tukapata mwongozo au ufahamu ni jinsi gani tutatatua swala hili. Mimi tu nisiseme mengi kwa sababu nafikiri wenzangu wamezugumzia mengi sana kuhusu Mswada huu. Nizungumzie kwa kifupi kuhusu hii kamati ambayo imewekwa katika sheria hii, Kamati ya Mediation . Nimeona kama imepewa nguvu nyingi zaidi. Nimrai tu kakangu Sen. M. Kajwang pengine kuna haja ya kupiga msasa Mswada huu kuhakikisha ya kwamba yale mapendekezo ya kwamba kaunti yoyote inaweza kuruhusiwa kubadilisha mipaka yake, yasikuwe pale katika sheria hii kwa sababu itazidi kuleta migogoro zaidi. Kutakuwa na chuki baina ya kaunti tofauti tofauti na tunajaribu kupata suluhu ya kudumu. Niweze tu kusema kwa kifupi kwamba mimi ninaunga mkono Mswada huu. Nawauliza Maseneta wenzangu, ingekuwa vyema kama Mswada huu ungekuwa wa Kiserikali ndio tuweze kufanya haraka, tuupitishe kwa haraka, ili tupate suluhu ya kudumu katika kaunti zetu hizi za Kwale na Taita-Taveta; Taita-Taveta na Makueni, hata Kaunti ya Kericho na Kisumu waweze kuwa na mfumo wa kisheria ambao watatumia kutatua mgogoro huu. Mimi naunga mkono Mswada huu. Asante Bw. Spika wa Muda."
},
{
"id": 1399230,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399230/?format=api",
"text_counter": 220,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Kavindu Muthama",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13733,
"legal_name": "Agnes Kavindu Muthama",
"slug": "agnes-kavindu-muthama"
},
"content": "Thank you, Temporary Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to contribute towards this Boundaries Bill. Sen. M. Kajwang, I congratulate you for the work that you put in here, but I want to support this Bill with amendments. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the other day, I sat in a room with Sen. M. Kajwang’ and our surveyors from Machakos County because this Bill suggests that Kalama Ward be moved to Makueni County. Kalama is in Machakos County, and this demarcation, which was done in 1992 moved Kalama Ward to Makueni and the people of Kalama demonstrated. They wanted to be returned to Machakos County. They were returned to Machakos.If this Bill passes the way it is, Kalama Ward will go back to Makueni County, and the Kalama people do not want to go to Makueni because they belong to Machakos County. When we had the Building Bridges Initiative (BBI), we suggested that Machakos County be divided into two, so that Kalama be made a sub-county. We had also suggested that Mwala be divided into two, so that we can have two sub-counties in Mwala. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
}
]
}