Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Administration and National Security the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Is the Minister aware that a police officer, Erick Kipsang Sirtui (PC 60310) was accidentally killed by a colleague on 11th December, 2006, while on duty in Machakos Police Station? (b) Is he further aware that the deceased officer left behind a widow and three young children? (c) Could the Minister take immediate steps to compensate the widow for the tragic loss of her husband?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) Yes, I am aware that the late constable Erick Kipsang Sirtui (PC 60310) was accidentally killed by his colleague on 12th December, 2006 and not on 11th December, 2006 as stated. (b) I am also aware that the late police constable left behind a widow and four young children. Already, we have initiated the following steps to have the widow compensated: 1. A group personal accident scheme compensation claim has been processed and submitted to the Director of Pensions for payment. The following pension claims are being processed: (i) Death gratuity and dependants pension payable by the Director of Pensions; and, (ii) Workman compensation payable by the Ministry of Labour and Human Resource Development.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, while thanking the Assistant Minister for the reply, I would like to remind him there is something seriously wrong with the Pensions Department. I pity people like this poor widow. Could he take steps to ensure that those payments to be paid by the Pensions Department are expedited? We all know the Pensions Department is a very difficult place?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we will undertake to do that in consultation with the hon. Member and the department concerned.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the question of compensation for a person who 4418 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007 has been wrongfully killed is the responsibility of the Government. How does the Pensions Department come in? This was a civil servant who was erroneously killed. The question of compensation lies in the hands of the Government which should pay the equivalent of Kshs60 billion to the dependants of the deceased, so that they can benefit from it. This is because we do not know whether this man was going to live for 100 years.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, currently, the law allows us to pay compensation as I have outlined. If the hon. Member wishes that we do more than we have done, I think it is incumbent upon him to initiate a law in Parliament that will assist us to do what he asked for.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the issue of police officers being killed and their families being taken for a ride is becoming too much in this country. Sometimes when a police officer has been killed let us say for about only a month, you find the family being chased out of the police lines or told that they are not supposed to take anything from the police station. What is the Assistant Minister doing to ensure that the families of the deceased officers are taken care of by the Government, so that they can feel that they are part of this Government?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to admit that, that had not come to my attention yet. Now that it has, we will do everything possible to ensure that the families of the deceased officers are not harassed.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister tell the House and the nation when the compensation which is an insurance matter, will be paid? An insurance matter should not take more than three months; it is now over a year. Why can the insurance not pay the Group Personal Accident immediately?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I have already said, we will ensure that this payment is done as soon as possible in order to avoid suffering by the family.

Mr. Kingi, the hon. Member has said that this matter has taken almost a year to pay. The issue of compensation and payment to public officers who either retire or are killed, is of contention. The hon. Member wants to know why it has taken nearly a year for the compensation to be paid and what you are doing to ensure that it is done almost now. I think that is what the hon. Member is asking.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have undertaken to get personally involved in this matter. That is why I have said that we will liaise with the hon. Member to ensure the family does not suffer.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. You have put it quite well to the Assistant Minister. The hon. Member is asking whether there is any form of insurance scheme put in place because as a qualified man; an insurance claim does not take a year to be settled. Is there any form of insurance cover in place?

I will allow Mr. Muriithi to ask that although he stood on a point of order. It was certainly not a point of order but in public interest. Could you, please, answer the question?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as far as I am concerned the scheme that is in place is a Group Personal Accident Scheme. That is the one we will use to ensure that these people are compensated.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am wondering whether the Assistant Minister is really aware of what happens to the widows of police officers. Most of these widows stay in the rural areas; they do not stay with their husbands. When the husband dies, first of all, it is not easy for the widows to access the police station where he worked. In most cases, the compensation takes forever or it is never paid. Is he aware of this, because this has been going on from time immemorial and even today? He says that he will personally intervene in this case, but what has he been doing for the past five years? The intervention should have taken place a long time ago. This October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4419 is what happens!

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you will agree with me that this is not the only police officer that passed away. He is only one out of many. Definitely, we have been doing a lot and that is why you will find that we only have this case in isolation. As I have said, now that this matter has been brought to our notice, we will do everything possible to ensure that, that compensation is paid as soon as possible. KILLING OF MR. WILSON ISUMBA

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Administration and National Security the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Under what circumstances was Mr. Wilson Isumba gunned down on Saturday, 6th October, 2007, at Hamisi district headquarters? (b) How many suspects have been apprehended in connection with the incident? (c) Could the Minister assure the House that proper investigations will be conducted to ensure that the perpetrators of the killing are brought to book?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg the indulgence of the House to allow me to bring the answer to this Question on Tuesday, next week. The reason is that the information that we received is not very satisfactory. I want to have some time to go through it and get more information.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is fine, but the reason I brought this Question through Private Notice was that we are burying this young man on Saturday. I was hoping that the Government could shed some light on this matter before then. However, I accept that the Question be deferred.

I think the Assistant Minister has a valid point. If he wants to get you correct information, I think we can give him up to Tuesday, next week. Therefore, Mr. Assistant Minister, come up with an answer to the Question on Tuesday afternoon.

asked the Minister for Labour and Human Resource Development:- (a) whether he is aware that over 40 people hired on casual basis by a sub- contractor (Kang'ethe Contractors) at Nyari Sisal Estate, Taru, between 2005-2006 have not been paid their dues; and, (b) what steps he is taking to ensure that the workers are paid their dues.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) I am aware that 87 casual employees engaged by a Mr. George Kang'ethe Mwanzia, a sub-contractor of Nyari Sisal Estate, Taru, have not been paid a balance of Kshs6,324,030 from a total of Kshs19,250,000 that was agreed upon in clearing 50 blocks of bushes at the latter's sisal 4420 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007 plantation. The non-payment of Kshs6,324,030 was occasioned by the fact that the employees did not perform the job to the satisfaction of the management. Consequently, the management asked the employees to re-do the clearing. However, to date the repeat work has not been done. The management has already paid them Kshs12,921,970 through the sub-contractor, and is willing to release the balance as soon as the repeat work is completed. The Provincial Labour Officer, Coast Province, held a meeting with the management of Nyari Estate and Mr. Kangeta on 16th February, 2007---

Mr. Minister, are you answering this Question?

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

You have taken quite some time now!

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am detailed but I am about to finish.

All right; finish, Mr. Minister!

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, at that meeting, it was agreed that the bush clearing balance be paid immediately. I confirm that the employees will be paid once they complete the bush clearing job to the satisfaction of the management. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, first, I would like to differ with the Minister. The total number of employees involved is 127, and not 87. Secondly, I would like to get proof of payment of the Kshs12 million from the Minister, because no payment has been made to those employees up to now. So, I want proof from the Minister, showing how the Kshs12 million was paid to those people.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there were 40 permanent employees in the company. The employer hired the services of extra casual employees, bringing the total to 87 employees. As to the evidence of payment, I am sorry that I do not have it here, but I can avail it to the House next week.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I seek the indulgence of the Chair for the Minister to come with evidence on Tuesday to prove that a sum of Kshs12 million has been paid to these employees. So, I would like the Chair to direct that the Question appears again on the order on Tuesday, so that the Minister can bring proof of that payment.

The Minister has indicated that he will bring the evidence. Therefore, it is only fair that this Question is deferred, so that he can bring the information the hon. Member wants. Therefore, I defer the Question to Tuesday afternoon. Is that okay with you, Mr. Rai?

I am much obliged, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Is that okay with you, Mr. Minister?

It is okay, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. On Tuesday, we would like the Minister to also furnish us with information as to how long the casuals were hired. For how many months were they hired?

We will not be going into the details of the Question. What the Minister should be asked to do is to bring as much evidence as possible on everything that he is going to say.

October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4421

Next Question by the Member for Samburu West!

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have a request from Mr. Lesrima to ask this Question on his behalf.

Very well, Mr. Sungu!

, on behalf of

, asked the Minister for Finance:- (a) what the salary and emoluments of the Controller and Auditor-General is; and, (b) what the salary and emoluments of the Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA) Chief Executive is.

Minister for Finance!

The Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs will answer!

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I regret that I will not answer the Question, but will ask for your indulgence that this Question be deferred to Thursday next week, the reason being that the Minister for Finance, Mr. Kimunya, is out of the country, and the Assistant Minister for Finance, Mr. Kenneth, is out of town. So, I request that we put this Question on the Order on Thursday next week, when both will be here, and will be happy to answer it. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have no objection to that request, except that I would prefer that the Question be put on the Order Paper on Tuesday, the reason being that we are not sure whether we are going to be here next Thursday.

You are not even sure whether you will be here on Tuesday. So, really, it does not make any difference. So, we shall have it answered on Thursday as requested by the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs.

Hon. Members, regarding the next Question by the Member for Mumias, I have information that the Minister for Education has requested that it be deferred to next week. Therefore, it is deferred to Tuesday. Is that okay, Mr. Osundwa?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is not okay, because the Minister is here.

Mr. Osundwa, the Minister for Education, Prof. Saitoti called, and I will go by his word. So, the Question is deferred to Tuesday.

CONFIRMATION OF GOVERNMENT 4422 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007 PLEDGE ON FREE SECONDARY EDUCATION

Hon. Members, the next Question is by the Member for Eldoret South. Again, the Minister for Roads and Public Works is out of town, and he requested that the Question be deferred to next week. Therefore, the Question is deferred to Tuesday, next week. Is that okay, Mr. Koros? Is Mr. Koros here?

No!

Mr. Koros is not even here. Therefore, the Question is deferred to Tuesday

Hon. Members, that is the last Question we have on the Order Paper. Next Order!

Hon. Members, we have four Bills to consider this afternoon. We shall start with The Work Injury Benefits Bill. THE WORK INJURY BENEFITS BILL

Hon. Members, the Minister has an amendment to Clause 2. Mr. Minister, please, proceed as per the Order Paper, on page 682.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4423 THAT, Clause 2 of the Bill be amended- (a) in the definition of the term "Board" by deleting the words "established under the Labour Institutions Act"; (b) in the definition of the term "Council" by deleting the words "established under the Occupational Safety and Health Act"; (c) in the definition of the term "Director" by deleting the words "appointed under Section 23 of the Occupational Safety and Health Act" and substituting therefor the words "of Occupational Safety and Health".

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 3 of the Bill be amended by inserting the words "other than the armed forces" immediately after the word "Government" appearing in the second line.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 9 of the Bill be amended in Subclause (4) by deleting the words "in terms of the Employment Act".

4424 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 21 of the Bill be amended- (a) by deleting the words "as soon as possible"; (b) by inserting the words "and a copy of the written notice or a notice of the verbal notice shall be sent to the Director within twenty four hours of its occurrence in the case of a fatal accident" immediately after the word "employer" appearing in the fourth line.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 22 be amended in sub-clause (2) by deleting the word "of" appearing immediately after the word "that" in the fifth line.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 23 of the Bill be amended in sub-clause (2) by deleting the words "any investigation in terms of the Occupational Safety and Health Act", and substituting therefor the words "any other investigation". October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4425

Dr. Kulundu): Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 26 of the Bill be amended by inserting the following new clauses immediately after Subclause (3)- (4) An employer or insurer against whom a claim for compensation is lodged by the Director under this section, shall settle the claim within ninety days of lodging the claim. (5) The Director shall, within thirty days of receipt of the money claimed under sub- section (1), pay the money to the employee who made the claim or his dependants. (6) An employer or an insurer who fails to pay the compensation claimed under this subsection commits an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding five hundred thousand shillings or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year or to both.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 45 of the Bill be amended in sub-clause (1) by deleting the words "under the Occupational Safety and Health Act or".

4426 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 52 of the Bill be amended in sub-clause (2) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefore the words "Industrial Court".

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 55 of the Bill be amended by deleting the word "fifty" and substituting therefor the words "two hundred".

Order, hon. Members! Your Excellency the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs, we need this to appear in the HANSARD and there is absolutely no support from the Government side, neither is there any support from the Opposition side. We are making law here and if you do not vote, we will delete those clauses from October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4427 the Bill. So, hon. Members, be alert if you are interested.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, the Second Schedule be amended in Part 1- (a) in paragraph 30 in the first column by deleting the word "server" appearing in the fifth line and substituting therefor the word "severe"; (b) in paragraph 33- (i) in the second column by deleting the word "The" appearing in the second line and substituting therefor the word "the"; (ii) in sub-paragraph (b) in the first column by deleting the word "a" appearing in the second line and substituting therefor the word "the".

Mr. Minister, you have proposed to amend Part 1, but I notice that you are only doing it because of a typing error, which will be rectified accordingly in the drafting stage. So, there is no need to move the amendment.

Order, hon. Members! I understand that there are amendments to the Labour Relations Bill (Bill No.8) and the Employment Bill (Bill No.7) as they appear on the Order Paper, but apparently, all the amendments are not ready. In that case, we are moving on to the last item, which is the Nutritionists and Dieticians Bill (Bill No.5). This is 4428 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007 Item No.IV on the Order Paper.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, the Labour Relations Bill is ready and I can move the amendments. What is not ready is the Employment Bill, which we shall deal with at a later stage.

Mr. Minister, I would wish you to consult with the Clerk, so that we are sure about this. I am told that all the amendments are not ready. I agree with you that your amendments are ready, as they appear on the Order Paper, but there are other amendments by Prof. Ojiambo on that same Bill, which have already been submitted to the Clerk, but they are not ready. They do not appear on the Order Paper. So, we cannot proceed.

Dr. Kulundu): Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I do not want to be seen to be not complying with what you are saying, but I think Prof. Ojiambo had amendments on the Employment Bill. We talked about it just before lunch. I do not know if she has any amendments on the Labour Relations Bill.

You have made your point. Let us hear from Prof. Ojiambo.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, there were amendments on the Labour Relations Bill and I have got a copy of them here, except that I was informed that they were under authorship. But I do not see them here from the Clerk's office. It is true that there are amendments.

Order, hon. Members! I think we have cleared the confusion now. A Supplementary Order Paper, which includes the amendments by Prof. Ojiambo, is now with us. So, we can proceed. We will now go to the next item, which is the Labour Relations Bill (Bill No.8).

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. We do not have the Supplementary Order Paper.

The Supplementary Order Paper is being distributed as we move on. While it is being distributed, we will proceed to the last item, which is the Nutritionists and Dieticians Bill (Bill No.5) and then we will come back to the Labour Relations Bill (Bill No.8), so that the hon. Members are clear about it. Let us now move to Sub-item (iv) under Order No.7, which is the Nutritionists and Dieticians Bill (Bill No.5). This is what we will now consider. THE NUTRITIONISTS AND DIETICIANS BILL

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 2 be amended - (a) by deleting the definition of "Director of dietetics"; (b) by deleting the definition of "Director of nutrition"; and (c) in the definition of "Kenya Coalition Network for Nutrition" by deleting the words "Kenya Coalition Network for Nutrition" and substituting therefor the words "Kenya Coalition for Action in Nutrition".

Yes! Is there any explanation for moving your proposed amendment?

October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4429

I did not hear Prof. Ojiambo voting. So, I do not know whether she agrees with her own amendment!

I said "aye"!

I understand that the Minister for Health has proposed some amendments to Clause 5. Is the Minister with us?

I thought she was sacked!

There is no Minister for Health.

Yes, Minister? No, unfortunately, unless you have been named as the Acting Minister for Health, you cannot move that amendment. So, since the amendment is in the name of the Minister, we shall ignore it. The amendment by the Minister is, therefore, dropped. Prof. Ojiambo, you had an amendment to Clause 5?

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. I have a Supplementary Order Paper and all the amendments to Clause 5 appear to be proposed by the mover. Was it proposed by the mover or by the Minister for Health? There is no indication that the Minister was to do it.

This one has been proposed by Prof. Ojiambo. I have asked her to move it. Yes, Prof. Ojiambo, could you move your amendments to Clause 5?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 5 of the Bill be amended in subclause (2), by deleting paragraphs (f), (g), (h), (i) and (j) and substituting therefor the following - (f) one representative of the Kenya Medical Association elected by the Association; (g) one representative of the Kenya Coalition for Action in Nutrition elected by the Coalition; (h) one representative of the Federation of Kenya Consumer Organizations elected by the Federation; (i) one representative of faculties of nutrition and dietetics of public universities elected at a meeting of the faculties convened by the Kenya Coalition for Action in 4430 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007 Nutrition; and (j) one representative of the faculties of nutrition and dietetics of private universities elected at a meeting of the faculties convened by the Kenya Coalition for Action in Nutrition.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, let me just seek some clarifications. I just want to understand from Prof. Ojiambo. She is saying that those representatives will all be elected. For instance, one representative of the Kenya Medical Association elected by the Association; one representative of the Kenya Coalition for Action in Nutrition elected by the Coalition; and then, the more curious one is: One representative of faculties of nutrition and dietetics of public universities elected at a meeting of the faculties convened by the Kenya Coalition for Action in Nutrition. I just want to understand the following: In the event that those faculties do not convene those meetings, what then becomes of that kind of representation? Is there a mechanism in which they will be compelled to hold those meetings to elect those representatives?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, those are professionals who meet at their own forums. Faculties in the country do meet to consider their professions. So, it is not possible that they will not meet.

Are you satisfied, Mr. Muturi?

I am.

It is important that you vote, Prof. Ojiambo. Otherwise, let us now move to Clause 6. Proceed, Prof. Ojiambo. You have proposed an amendment to Clause 6.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move - THAT, Clause 6 be amended - (a) in the opening paragraph by deleting the word "institute" and substituting therefor the word "council"; (b) by deleting the paragraphs (d) and (e) and substituting therefor the following - "(d) approve institutions as institutions for the purpose of training persons seeking registration under this Act;". Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I also wish to consider a request for consideration to amend Clause 6, where it reads "institute" by substituting it with the word "council".

Order, Prof. Ojiambo! Are you moving a further amendment or it is already there? October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4431

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, this is just a correction of a title.

What are you saying? Are you making a further amendment to your amendment or you are moving the amendment as per the Order Paper in front of us?

I have moved an amendment as per the Order Paper and I noted a title. Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I was proposing that I make an amendment to the title.

Title of what? Of the Bill?

A typographical error.

Yes! Can you just say what it is, so that we can note it? Tell us if it is in line with the Bill.

At Clause 6, I am proposing that where it reads "the functions of the institute" it should be amended to read "the functions of the council".

Yes! But you have already moved that in Sub-item (a) of your amendment. If you read your amendment to Clause 6, you said:- THAT, Clause 6 be amended - (a) in the opening paragraph by deleting the word "institute" and substituting therefor the word "council"; The other amendment is there. So, you do not need to move any further amendments to your amendment. You should move as per the Order Paper.

Yes, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, Prof. Ojiambo's amendment in part (b) reads:- (b) by deleting paragraphs (d) and (e) and substituting therefor the following - "(d) approve institutions as institutions for the purpose of training persons seeking registration under this Act;". Is it "approve" or "approved"? Maybe, Prof. Ojiambo could explain.

I think that goes without saying. It is just a question of language. I think Prof. Ojiambo would agree that it should be "approved". Could you respond, please?

Approved!

I will kindly request you to use the microphone because we want what you say to be recorded in the HANSARD so that there is no doubt about it. The drafters are going to use these records to draft the final Bill and we do not want mistakes to occur. Prof. Julia, the Chair will exercise its discretion and allow you to use the Dispatch Box so that we can hear you better.

Thank you.

4432 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007

I think the Minister has some amendments. The Minister is not here, So, her amendments are dropped!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I was just going to---

Hold on, Madam Minister! Unless you are the Minister for Health---

No, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. We have a collective responsibility which requires that---

I will order for the time being that you hold on to that as we hear Prof. Julia's amendments. As you know, your colleague was here when we dropped the other amendments.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 13 of the Bill be amended in paragraph (a) by deleting the words "elected as per the First Schedule" and substituting therefor the words "appointed by the Minister".

Do you want to state why you want to make that amendment? Hon. Members, the amendment is on page 701 in the old Order Paper and page 722 in the Supplementary Order Paper. We are talking about Clause 13!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 13 of the Bill be amended - (a) in Subclause (1) - (iii) by deleting the words "Examinations Board" and substituting therefor the words "Accreditation Board". (iv) by deleting the words "which shall be a corporate body". (b) in Subclause (2) - (i) by deleting the words "three" appearing in paragraph (c) and substituting therefor the word "two". (ii) by deleting paragraph (e) and substituting therefor the following -(e) two October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4433 persons nominated by the Minister responsible for health". Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, this is as a result of consultations between the various stakeholders.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, we consulted and we agreed on that matter.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 14 of the Bill be amended by deleting the words "Examinations Board" and substituting therefor the words "Accreditation Board". Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, again, this is as a result of extensive consultations.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I have no objection.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 15 of the Bill be amended by deleting the words "Examinations Board" wherever they appear and substituting therefor the words "Accreditation Board". Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, again, this is as a result of consultations. 4434 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I have no objection.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 16 of the Bill be amended in Subclause 2(c) by deleting the words "Examinations Board" and substituting therefor the words "Accreditation Board". Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, this is also as a result of consultations.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, we have no objection.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 16 be amended in Subclause (2) by deleting the words "university representatives" in paragraph (b) and substituting therefor the words "representatives of local universities."

October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4435

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move: THAT, Clause 17 of the Bill be amended - (a) in paragraph (b) by inserting the words "certificate, diploma, or" immediately before the word "degree". (b) in paragraph (c) by deleting the words "Examinations Board" and substituting therefor the words "Accreditation Board". Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I would like to confirm that this is as a result of consultations.

Prof. Julia!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I have no objection.

I hope you do not mind me calling you Julia!

It is a popular name!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 26 of the Bill be amended---

Order, Madam Minister! I am sorry, we have to start with the amendment proposed by Prof. Ojiambo because of the order of the clauses. Prof. Ojiambo, you have your amendment on page 722 of the Supplementary Order Paper!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 26 of the Bill be amended in sub clause (2)- (a) in paragraph (a) by inserting the words "appointed by the Council" immediately 4436 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007 after the words "a chairperson"; (b) in paragraph (b) by inserting the words "appointed by the Council" immediately after the words "at least seven years' experience"; (c) in paragraph (d) by inserting the words "elected by the Council" immediately after the words "with at least five years' experience".

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 26 of the Bill be amended in paragraph (e) by deleting the words "Examinations Board" and substituting therefor the words "Accreditation Board". Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I confirm that the amendments by the Mover of the Bill do not in any way contradict this further amendment.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I have no objection.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 28 of the Bill be amended in paragraph (c) by deleting the words "Clause 13(c)" and substituting therefor the words "section 14(c)".

October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4437

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 28 of the Bill be amended in paragraph (c) by deleting the words "Examinations Board" and substituting therefor the words "Accreditation Board". The amendments by the Mover are in line with this further amendment.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I have not objection.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 37 of the Bill be amended by renumbering the existing provision as sub clause (1) and inserting the following new sub clause- (2) Any person who markets food and nutrition supplements without analysis, certification and registration

by the Council commits and offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding two hundred thousand shillings or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or both. Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, this, once again, is as a result of extensive consultation.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, we have not objection.

4438 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, the First Schedule to the Bill be amended in paragraph 1 - by inserting the following sub paragraphs immediately after sub paragraph (6)- (7) The members of the Institute shall at every annual general meeting, elect eleven provincial representatives, being nutritionists or dieticians, who shall constitute the national officials of the Institute (8) The national officials shall elect from among their number a vice-chairperson, secretary and treasurer of the Institute. Again, this is as a result of consultation.

Prof. Ojiambo, this is your Bill. Do you have any objection to that amendment?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I have no objection to the Minister's amendment.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, the Second Schedule be deleted. The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Mr. Sungu): Prof. Ojiambo, I note that you are proposing to delete the Second Schedule. Maybe, you could explain to us why you are intending to do so.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, it was found not to be necessary.

Well, I need an explanation from the initiator of the Bill.

Prof. Ojiambo, it was found not to be necessary.

Order, Madam Minister, you cannot do that! Prof. Ojiambo, in the absence of any explanation, I will put the Question!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, after consultation with the Minister and other stakeholders, it was found that it was not necessary to include the Second Schedule in the Bill.

So, do we delete it? October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4439

So, I am proposing to delete it.

So, you are deleting the provisions as to the conduct of the business of the Council.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, the Third Schedule be deleted and the following replaced. (1) The Head of the Division of Human Nutrition and Dietetics in the Ministry in liaison with- (a) the Nutrition Association of Kenya; (b) the Kenya Community of Action in Nutrition; (c) the Kenya Community Nutrition Association; and, (d) the Clinical Nutrition and Dietetics Association of Kenya shall within twelve months from the date of the commencement of this Act convene the First Annual General Meeting at which the first members of the Institute shall be elected. (2) The Head of the Division of Human Nutrition and Dietetics in the Ministry shall chair the meeting referred to in paragraph 1. (3) Prior to convening the meeting referred to in paragraph 1, the Head of the Division of Human Nutrition and Dietetics in the Ministry in liaison with the organisation referred to in paragraph (1) shall facilitate the registration of the persons carrying on business or holding themselves out as nutritionist and dieticians. (4) No person shall be eligible to participate in the election referred to under paragraph 1 unless such person is registered in terms of paragraph 3. (5) After the expiry of twelve months after the commencement of the Act, no person may carry on business or hold himself or herself out as being a nutritionist or dietician, except in compliance with this Act.

4440 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. I am seeking your indulgence and guidance. You will notice that on page 719, Clause 5 which is an amendment by the Minister, was passed. Unfortunately, I did not come in on time because the Question Time ended early. These amendments were shared between the Minister and the Mover. They were a result of consultation. This is a very important clause and it will affect the rest of the Bill. I am, therefore, seeking to be advised in what manner we could seek the re-opening of this issue by the House, so that this amendment is proposed with the leave of the Chair.

Order, Mr. Minister. I have heard your explanation and do understand that it will affect the Bill. It is unfortunate that you were not there in time to move the amendments. The way to proceed--- As you know the Standing Orders, we cannot revisit an issue which we have made a decision on. We can do it when we report back to the House. The Clerks will advise accordingly, so that the matter could be reconsidered at the next Committee. I mean that particular section only. Thank you.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 1 be amended by deleting the words "but not later than thirty days from the date of assent".

Order, hon. Members. We have now completed the Nutritionists and Dieticians Bill. We are now moving to the other item that we had left out. That is the Labour Relations Bill. For purposes of following the Order Paper properly, we will use the Supplementary Order Paper which has just been provided to hon. Members. It has all the amendments which were missing from the initial Order Paper. The Bill is the Labour Relations Bill. Sub-item No.2 in the Order Paper. THE LABOUR RELATIONS BILL

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 2 of the Bill be amended- (a) in the definition of the term "award" by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court"; October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4441 (b) in the definition of the term "Board" by deleting the words "established under the Labour Institutions Act"; (c) in the definition of the term "Committee of Inquiry" by deleting the words "established under the Labour Institutions Act" and substituting therefore the words "appointed by the Minister to inquire into any matter relevant to a trade dispute", (d) by deleting the definition of the term "employee" and substituting therefor the following new definition- "employee" means a person employed for wages or a salary and includes an apprentice and an indentured learner"; (e) by deleting the definition of the term "employer" and substituting therefor the following new definition- "employer" means any person, public body, firm, corporation or company, who or which has entered into a contract of service to employ any individual, and includes the agent, foreman, manager or factor of such person, public body, firm, corporation or company; (f) by deleting the definition of the term "judge" and substituting therefor the following new definition- "judge" means a judge of the Industrial Court"; (g) by deleting the definition of the term "National Labour Court"; (h) by deleting the definition of the term "redundancy" and substituting therefor the following new definition- "redundancy" means the loss of employment, occupation, job or career by involuntary means through no fault of an employee, involving termination of employment at the initiative of the employer, where the services of an employee are superfluous and the practice commonly known as abolition of office, job or occupation and loss of employment; (i) by deleting the definition of the term "Registrar" and substituting therefor the following new definition- "Registrar" means the Registrar of trade unions"; (j) by deleting the definition of the term "sector" and substituting therefor the following new definition- "sector" means an industry or service or part of an industry or service; (k) in the definition of the term "trade union" by deleting the letter "s" appearing at the end of the word "organisations".

4442 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 4(1) be amended by adding a new paragraph after (b) to read as follows:- (c) "leave a trade union"

Do you not think, Prof. Ojiambo, that you need to explain that further? This is because you are saying that Clause 4 be amended by adding a new paragraph after "b" to read as follows:- "leave a trade union". What do you mean by that? I am not following?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, we are merely trying to make it possible for a worker to leave a trade union.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I did not quite understand what she meant by saying that so and so could leave a trade union. But in this country, non-workers actually leave trade unions.

I think, Mr. Minister, it appears you are in agreement with the Mover of that amendment. This is because if you look at---

What is she saying?

Take your seat! I will tell you. What Prof. Ojiambo is proposing to do is to amend Part Two - Freedom of Association Clause 4(1) - by adding a further sub-paragraph there. Now Clause 4(1) reads:- "every employee has the right to- (a) participate in forming a trade union or federation of trade unions and; (b) join a trade union; and, (c) leave a trade a union. In other words, they also have a right to leave. That is what she is saying. That is the amendment. If you want to oppose it, just say so. The amendment she is adding gives the right to an employee to leave a trade union.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, could I consult my officers?

I will give you five seconds!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, we have no problem.

October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4443

The Minister has an amendment to Clause 10. There were no amendments to Clauses 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9. So, there was no need to move them.

Mr. Minister, do you have an amendment to Clause 10?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 10 of the Bill be amended - (a) by deleting the expression (1); (b) in paragraph (b) - (i) by deleting the words "National Labour Court"; (ii) by deleting the words "in accordance with the provisions of the Labour Institutions Act".

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 12 of the Bill be amended by adding the following paragraph after Clause 12(3) paragraph (b):- "provided that in exercising his or her powers under this section, the registrar shall not seek the consent of any existing and related trade union in the same sector or act in any way that reasonably restricts the formation of trade unions in a given sector of trade"

Mr. Minister, do you have any objections?

Yes, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. I stand to object to the proposed amendment by Prof. Ojiambo. This is on the basis that the Registrar must be allowed to consult with the existing trade unions and the federation of employers as part of social dialogue under ILO Convention 144. Without such consultations, there will be an unnecessary duplication of the trade unions in industries or sectors where workers already have representation. This will lead to confusion, kill the spirit and the practice of the tripartite consultations, which are key to sound labour administration.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I just want to urge my colleague, Prof. Julia Ojiambo, to withdraw this 4444 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007 amendment because the bargaining power of labour is when people come together in large groups. This clause, which is seeking to register trade unions without consultations with the labour movement, will lead to the fragmentation of the trade union movement, thus weakening the bargaining power. In the end, it will militate against the workers' ability to organise and speak in one voice. I seek to oppose the amendment but also beg my colleague to withdraw this clause as being anti-labour in the long run.

Prof. Ojiambo, can you respond?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, the argument could also work contrary to the interest of the workers. There are incidents where these kind of consultations have worked against the workers because the existing institutions have not been in favour of workers consolidating themselves and starting their own trade movements. Therefore, it is felt by the workers that extensive investigations and consultations, as much as they are useful, some of them have hindered workers from moving on and organising themselves into unions.

I do not want there to be an exchange. I would like to involve all hon. Members.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, there exists legal provisions where an unpopular decision by the Registrar of Trade Unions can be challenged in court. The issue of proliferation is something we have seen in our political system. The issue of proliferation of trade unions does not necessarily make them efficient or even representative. In fact, they may be ethnic or intended for profit making, among other issues. So, I still insist that the Registrar of Trade Unions should be allowed time to consult as widely as possible before a trade union is registered.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 18(4) of the Bill be amended by adding the following paragraph after 18(4)(b):- "provided that the registrar shall not refuse to register a trade union only on the grounds that there is already in existence, a trade union in that particular trade or sector of employment"

It would always be helpful if you explained your amendment of the Bill so hon. Members understand what you are amending.

October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4445

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I object to the amendment for the same reason that I offered for the previous one.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I just wanted to say that the proposed amendment by "Her Excellency", Prof. Julia Ojiambo, may cause confusion in trade unions. It will, definitely, cause a lot of confusion.

What is it, Mr. Katuku?

I withdraw!

Ms. Karua): Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, he has withdrawn!

Mr. Githae, there are only a few people in this country who are allowed to be called his or her "excellency".

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I am wishing her good luck.

But I understand that you are apposing this amendment. This amendment flows from the other amendment which has been deleted. Prof. Ojiambo, your amendment to Clause 12 has been defeated. What do you say?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, this amendment follows the previous one that we have deleted. It is in the interests of the workers that if the first amendment worked, then this would have automatically followed. Therefore, there would have been an opportunity to have one or two trade unions in one employment sector, but I have no objection.

So, are you withdrawing your amendment?

Yes.

So, there is no amendment to Clause 18. The amendment by Prof. Ojiambo has been withdrawn.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 27 be amended by adding the following subclause after Clause 27(3) to read:- (3A) "Upon receipt of the notice of change of name or constitution, the registrar 4446 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007 shall give a notice of at least 21 days in the Gazette and in three daily newspapers of national circulation inviting any objections to the proposed change of name or constitution by members of the trade union, and where any such objection is raised the registrar shall investigate the complaint and the grounds relied upon and may- (a) refer the matter to the National Labour Court; (b) refuse to accept the proposed amendments; or, (c) make any orders that he or she may deem fit in the circumstances.

As I said before, since you are amending the Minister's Bill, a short explanation is necessary for the other hon. Members to understand why you are amending it. Do it if it is possible.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I accept this amendment, except that in part (a) she refers to :the National Labour Court" which we have consistently replaced with "the Industrial Court". So, either she deletes part (a) or she re-aligns it with the rest of the Bill by referring to the Industrial Court instead of the National Labour Court.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I think the proposed amendment is introducing something that has already been deleted. It says that the matter may be referred to the National Labour Court. We have already done away with any references to such a court. Therefore, I think even if the amendment was to be carried, it would still be making reference to something that is not in existence. I would propose to Prof. Ojiambo to delete "the National Labour Court" and in place thereof insert "the Industrial Court".

I think it is fairly clear, Prof. Ojiambo. The Minister has no objection to your amendment except that the National Labour Court is not in existence. So, would you concur with those comments and make a further amendment to your amendment?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 27 be amended by adding the following subclause after Clause 27(3) to read:- (3A) "Upon receipt of the notice of change of name or constitution, the registrar shall give a notice of at least 21 days in the Gazette and in three daily newspapers of national circulation inviting any objections to the proposed change of name or constitution by members of the trade union, and where any such objection is raised the registrar shall investigate the complaint and the grounds relied upon and may- (a) refer the matter to the Industrial Court; (b) refuse to accept the amendments; or, (c) make any orders he or she may deem fit in the circumstances.

You will now do it in writing and there is concurrence and a good understanding on that.

October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4447

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 28 of the Bill be amended in Subclause (5) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court".

I think it is the same thing again, namely replacing the words "National Labour Court" with the words "Industrial Court" which is understood.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 30 of the Bill be amended by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court".

It is the same thing again.

4448 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 34 of the Bill be amended in Subclause (4) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court".

I understand that it is the same thing again; just replacing the words "National Labour Court" with the words "Industrial Court".

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT Clause 41 of the Bill be amended- (a) in Subclause (1) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court"; (b) in Subclause (2) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court".

It is the same thing again.

October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4449

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 47 of the Bill be amended in

Subclause (1) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court".

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 48 of the Bill be amended in Subclause (3) by deleting the words "in the prescribed form" and substituting therefor the words "in Form S set out in the Third Schedule".

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 49 of the Bill be amended- 4450 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007 (a) in Subclause (1) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court"; (b) in Subclause (6) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court".

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 54 of the Bill be amended- (a) in Subclause (7) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court"; (b) in Subclause (8) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court".

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 56 of the Bill be amended in Subclause (3) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court". October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4451

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I just want to support the Minister's amendment. Kenyans have a lot of confidence in the Industrial Courts. So, we should not substitute it with something else.

I think it was so self-explanatory here.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 57 of the Bill be amended- (a) in Subclause (6) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court"; (b) in Subclause (7) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court".

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 58 of the Bill be amended- (a) in Subclause (3) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court"; (b) in Subclause (4) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court". 4452 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 59 of the Bill be amended in Subclause (5) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court".

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 60 of the Bill be amended- (a) in Subclause (1) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court"; (b) in Subclause (2) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court"; (c) in Subclause (3) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court"; (d) in Subclause (4) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court"; (e) in Subclause (5) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court"; (f) in Subclause (6)- (a) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court"; (b) by deleting the words "under the Labour Institutions Act"; (g) in Subclause (7) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court". October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4453

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 62 of the Bill be amended in Subclause (4) by deleting the words "in accordance with Section 40 of the Employment Act".

What is the explanation of deleting the words "in accordance with Section 40 of the Employment Act"? Why are you amending that?

There will be no Employment Act!

Okay, I understand. I have to follow because questions can arise later.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 65 of the Bill be amended in sub-clause (4) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court".

4454 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 72 of the Bill be amended by deleting the words "Labour Commissioner" and substituting therefor the words "Commissioner of Labour".

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 73 of the Bill be amended- (a) in the marginal note by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court"; (b) in Subclause (1) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court"; (c) in Subclause (2) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court"; (d) in Subclause (3) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court".

October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4455

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 74 of the Bill be amended- (a) in the marginal note by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court". (b) in sub-clause (1) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court".

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 75 of the Bill be amended by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court."

Mr. 4456 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007 Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 77 of the Bill be amended- (a) in the marginal note by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court; (b) in Subclause (1) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court"; (c) in Subclause (3) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court".

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 78 of the Bill be amended in sub-clause (1)- (a) in paragraph (c) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court". (b) in paragraph (d) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court".

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 80 of the Bill be amended in sub-clause (3) be deleting the words October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4457 "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court".

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 81 of the Bill be amended in sub-clause (4) by deleting the words "National Labour Court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court".

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 82 of the Bill be amended in sub-clause (1) by deleting the words "subordinate labour court" and substituting therefor the words "Industrial Court".

4458 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, the Third Schedule to the Bill be amended by inserting the following Form S immediately after Form R.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move that the Committee doth report to the House its consideration of the Nutritionists and Dieticians Bill and its approval thereof with amendments, subject to recommittal of the Bill today in respect of Clause 5 to a Committee of the whole House, pursuant to Standing Order No.109(2).

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that a Committee of the whole House has considered the Nutritionists and Dieticians Bill and approved the same with amendments, subject to recommittal of the Bill today in respect of Clause 5 to a Committee of the whole House pursuant to Standing Order No.109(2).

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.

(Ms. Karua) seconded.

4460 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007

Order, hon. Members! We are back to the Committee of the whole House. We are looking at the Nutritionists and Dieticians Bill with reference to Clause 5 only. This was a proposed amendment by the Minister which could not be moved due to her absence, but now that we have come back to the Committee of the whole House, this is what we are going to consider only. Yes, Madam Minister!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 5 be amended in sub-clause (2)- (a) in paragraph (a), by deleting the words "elected as per the First Schedule" and substituting therefor the words "appointed in terms of the Second Schedule"; (b) by deleting paragraph (g) and substituting therefor the following new paragraph- (g) four representatives appointed from four registered associations of nutritionists and dieticians. (a) by inserting the following new paragraph in proper alphabetical sequence- (i) two representatives from faculties of Nutrition and Dietetics from public and private Diploma Colleges. Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, this amendment arose as a result of consultations.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I want to agree with the Minister that we had held consultations and agreed to the amendment as it appears on the Order Paper.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move that the Committee doth report to the House its October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4461 consideration of The Work Injury Benefits Bill, The Labour Relations Bill and The Nutritionists and Dieticians Bill and their approval thereof with amendments.

Order, hon. Members! As you know, we are dealing with three Bills. We will be concluding all of them. We will start with the one by Prof. Ojiambo, the Nutritionists and Dieticians Bill. I will ask the Chairman to report on that Bill and then we will move on to the other Bills. THE NUTRITIONISTS AND DIETICIANS BILL

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that a Committee of the whole House has considered the Nutritionist and Dieticians Bill and approved the same with amendments.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.

seconded.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move that the Nutritionists and Dieticians Bill be now read the Third Time.

(Ms. Karua) seconded.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just want to take this opportunity to congratulate Prof. Ojiambo for all the efforts she has put in bringing this Bill to fruition. It is clear that what she has done is a very noble thing in the sense that, for the first time, we now have a Bill dealing with nutritionists and dieticians. It was not there. Really, today, is a wonderful day for this Parliament and the country.

4462 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007

Hon. Members, we will now look at the Report on the Work Injury Benefits Bill. THE WORK INJURY BENEFITS BILL

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that a Committee of the whole House has considered the Work Injury Benefits Bill and approved the same with amendments.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.

(Mr. Githae) seconded.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Work Injury Benefits Bill be now read the Third Time.

(Mr. Yattani) seconded.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just want to congratulate the Minister. I also note that it is a great day for the workers of this country because this Bill has helped Kenya to comply with the International Labour Organisation (ILO) conventions for the benefit of our workers.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me also endorse what Ms. Karua has said. Let me take this opportunity to congratulate the Ministry, together with Central Organisation of Trade Unions (COTU) and all the other stakeholders, who were involved in the formulation this Bill. This is an important Bill for the workers of this country. It is very clear that the Ninth Parliament has the welfare of workers at heart.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also want to thank the Minister and the team that was involved in actually updating the Work Injury Benefits Bill. I believe it is repealing the Workman's Compensation Act and, therefore, actually updating and bringing to par our laws relating to the compensation to workers when they are injured at their work places. I, therefore, want to welcome this Bill and say that it is a great achievement. Let me also warn the Minister that, in future, when he wants to bring Bills, they must be tidy. This Bill has given us a lot of headache! Thank you.

October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4463

Very well. We will now move on to the next Bill - the Labour Relations Bill. The Temporary Deputy Chairman, can you report progress? THE LABOUR RELATIONS BILL

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I beg to report that a Committee of the whole House has considered the Labour Relations Bill and approved the same with amendments.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I beg to move that the Labour Relations Bill be now read the Third Time.

House doth agree---

Order! Order! Order, Mr. Minister! You are reporting what you have agreed on in the Committee stage! We are not yet in the Third Reading! You are only reporting on what you agreed upon in the Committee of the Whole House! What was the progress?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.

(Ms. Karua) seconded.

Yes, Minister, you should have--- That sounds right!

Mr. Minister, you can now go to the Third Reading!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Labour Relations Bill be now read the Third Time.

(Ms. Karua) seconded.

Thank you very much, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for this opportunity. Having chaired the Committee of the whole House, I want to congratulate the Minister. It has been a big Bill. These are important Bills for the benefit of Kenyan workers. I want to congratulate the capable Minister and his technical staff. I also want to congratulate hon. Members of this Ninth Parliament who have been sitting with us here to make sure that this Bill is passed into law. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would only like to recommend to Ministers or other people bringing Bills to this House to do a lot of consultations. That is because many amendments make it very difficult for Parliament to work. Parliament has got a lot of work. But the Ninth Parliament deserves a pat on the back for passing some laws which are going to improve the 4464 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES October 11, 2007 welfare of workers in this country. Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I just want to take this opportunity again to thank the Minister, his Permanent Secretary, his team and all the other stakeholders who were involved in the formulation of this Bill. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am one of the people who was happy that those amendments were there. Kenyans have a lot of confidence in the Industrial Court. Kenyans have a lot of confidence in their hon. Members. Therefore, this is an important Bill. It shows that the Ninth Parliament has the interest of workers at heart. Since Independence, it is only the Ninth Parliament that has been able to update all the labour laws. Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I also want to congratulate the Minister for bringing these important laws and having them passed this afternoon. I just want to urge the Minister to ensure that workers enjoy their rights in their places of work. They should not be subjected to frustrations by their employers. Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Let us move on to the last Bill - the Employment Bill. Is that right? No! We have finished! That brings us to the end of reporting on the Committee of the whole House. Next Order!

The debate was interrupted on 3rd October, 2007. I am advised that the Minister, Dr. Wekesa, was replying.

Mr. Yattani, do you want to continue?

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

What is out of order now?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just want to seek your guidance. When we were debating this Bill the last time, the Minister was in the process of concluding. He was October 11, 2007 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 4465 replying to the debate on the Floor of the House. We were then going to put the Question. But it appears that the Minister is not here. So, I do not know whether, under the Standing Orders, somebody else can finish replying to the debate on his behalf or not. I seek your guidance.

Mr. Sungu, I was just trying to find out how it was. Then, you interrupted me, and rudely so! Surely, that is the business of the Chair and not your business! I have asked whether the Minister is here. I am told that the Assistant Minister is here. I have asked: What do you want to do, Mr. Assistant Minister?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to conclude the Minister's contribution.

Yeah! You are allowed!

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Hon. Members may wish to know that I shall be introducing some amendments at the Committee Stage. Those amendments will include, among others, views advanced by hon. Members and other stakeholders who, in many workshops organized in Nairobi and Mombasa, proposed various issues that will now be captured in those amendments. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, in particular, I have noted the contribution by Prof. Anyang'-Nyong'o, who pointed out that the Chair of the Biosafety Authority needs to be an eminent scientist, rather than a judge of the High Court, as earlier proposed in the Bill. Further, we have noted the need to have a majority of members of the Appeals Board and National Biosafety Authority to be comprised of many scientists. The moral aspect of biosafety as relates to stem cell technology, among others, shall also be addressed. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, finally, I want to assure the House that this Bill is not intended to interfere with the health of our people nor the environment. Countries like Brazil, India, Spain and others have been raising benefits of biotechnology for a long time and their economies have grown. We hope that the same will happen to Kenya. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank hon. Members and hope that they will still support the Bill during the Committee Stage. With those few remarks, I beg to move.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister is engaged elsewhere and he is not present. With your leave, we seek for your indulgence that we go to the next Order to enable the Minister to be present and move this Bill.

Very well! We will go to the next Order!

Is the Leader of Delegation of the Kenya Parliament Representatives to the Pan African Parliament present? Who is it? The Leader of the Delegation seems not to be present in the House.

Hon. Members, that concludes the business on the Order Paper. The House is, therefore, adjourned until Tuesday, 16th October, 2007, at 2.30 p.m. The House rose at 5.10 p.m.