Where is the Leader of Government Business?
Mr. Speaker, Sir---
Order, hon. Members! You will note that we are resuming the business of the House today on Order No.8 from where we left off yesterday. The position as at where we left off is that the Motion under Order No.8 was moved and seconded and hon. Members have made some contributions to it. So, that debate will continue from that point. Hon. Members will note that, that Motion was moved in that form by Mr. Musyoka, then Leader of Government Business as the Chair understood it. Proceed!
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Before the Vice-President resumes debate on Order No.8, I have a matter of grave constitutional consequences with regard to the debate before this House. I wish to ask the Chair to make a ruling before we resume debate. The issue that I want to seek your direction on is so fundamental that unless it is resolved before we resume, then debate in the House may not be conducted in the way---
Order, Mr. Aluoch! Before the hon. Member for Kisumu West continues with his contribution on the point of order, which I want to believe pertains to this matter, so that the record is clear, I have explained where we will proceed from. In a nutshell, I have said that it is resumption of debate from where we left off yesterday. The Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs has stood up to begin to contribute. That is not permissible because he had already contributed to this Motion. So, I just want to make the record straight, hon. Members, so that it is clearly understood and properly captured on the HANSARD.
I am much obliged, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The issue that I wish to raise touches on the ability of the House to defend the Constitution and comply with Standing Orders. The Motion that we are resuming debate on is presented by the Vice-President and as appears on the Order Paper, as the Leader of Government Business. The fundamental issue that I wish to raise on that aspect is under our Constitution; who is supposed to move the Motion that has been moved before this House? I wish to refer to the definition of the words âLeader of Government Businessâ. Leader of Government Business is defined under Standing Order No.2 at page two of the Standing Orders. It reads: - âThe Leader of Government Businessâ means the Minister designated by the Government as the Leader of Government Business in the House.â The issue of relevance here is: Who âis the Governmentâ in the context of the Kenyan situation? âGovernmentâ in the context of the Kenyan situation is defined by the Constitution of this Republic. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Constitution, the National Accord and Reconciliation Act and the pre-amble to that Act is very clear and it reads as follows:- âIt is an Act of Parliament to give effect to the agreement on the principles of partnership on the Coalition Government to foster national accord and reconciliation; to provide for formation of a Coalition Government and the establishment of the Offices of the Prime Minister, Deputy Prime Ministers and
Hon. Members, in view of the nature of the matters that have been canvassed by the hon. Member for Kisumu West, I am obliged to hear a few more contributions from the House before I indicate which way we shall proceed.
Mr. M. Kilonzo): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to say, from the outset, that my learned friend and the distinguished hon. Member has not only misread the Act that he has read out, but he is also misleading the House. I would like to say that the Standing Orders No.2 and No.158 (6) that he is interpreting were adopted by this House not very long ago. In fact, it was four months ago, on 10th December, 2008. By the time these Standing Orders were being adopted by us and by the time they came into force two days ago, the Grand Coalition as well as the Office of the Prime Minister were in existence. We all knew that this is a Grand Coalition Government and that the Office of the Prime Minister is in existence. Allow me to read the definition of the LGB at page two of the Standing Orders that I have just referred to and which were passed on 10th December, 2008:- âLeader of Government Bunessâ means the Minister designated by the Government as LGB in the House.â Mr. Speaker, Sir, it has come to my knowledge that, that is the main reason that this House has not yet appointed the HBC. There is a tug-of-war. So, I welcome the opportunity for you to make a ruling. Standing Order No.158 (6) states as follows:- âThe Chairperson of the HBC shall be a Member nominated by the Government.â The point that I want to make is that the Standing Orders that we formulate under the Constitution are subject to the interpretation of law. The law governing the interpretation of these Standing Orders is not as my learned friend is attempting to do by using the National Accord. The law for interpreting this statute was passed in 1949 and it has been revised so many times. The first one was Act No.57 of 1949 and it is called the Interpretation and General Provisions Act. The Clerk of the National Assembly will be able to find that in Volume IV of the books in front of you so that you can look at what I am trying to show you. That Act has been amended countless times. The last amendment was in 2004 when you were a Member of this honourable House. Section 3 of that Act states:- âThe interpretation of terms in this Act and every other written law and all other public documents enacted, made or used before or after the commencement of this Act, the following word and expression shall have meanings hereby assigned to them respectively except if there is something in the subject of context inconsistent with the construction and/or interpretation except where it is expressly provided.â The Government is defined in that Act to mean âthe Government of Kenyaâ. Moreover, the âPresidentâ is also defined and it says:- âThe Presidentâ means the person elected as President of the Republic under the Constitution:â That is what I understood my learned friend, the hon. Member, to say.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the truth of the matter, as I speak to you now, is that I am not aware that there is any dispute as to who is the elected President of the Republic under the Constitution!
Mr. James Orengo!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I stand here with a very heavy heart. The exhibition that we are subjecting the whole country to is a big shame. We should apologize to the country for this exhibition. We are being seen all over the country haggling over the composition of the House Business Committee and, more particularly, who is to become the Leader of Government Business.
It would have been understandable â and I say this with a lot of respect â if an hon. Member who is not in the Government raised questions as to whether or not there is a proper House Business Committee or the persons nominated as Members of the House Business Committee are properly placed before Parliament. Indeed, I did on one occasion rise on a point of order as a Member of the Opposition, to question whether or not there was a Government in place in the Republic, because, at that time, the President had not been appointed.
A lot of times when I am in this situation I say to myself: What is former President Moi thinking about this entire exhibition that we are subjecting the country to? What I can reluctantly praise former President Moi about is that when there were constitutional questions of this nature, he would respond expeditiously by taking certain decisions, however difficult they were. I rose in this House and challenged the Speaker at that time, whether there was a proper Government in place because the Vice-President
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in my view, the issue is very simple. With regard to who is the Leader of Government Business, this is an issue I have raised in this House. It is an issue that has been determined in a Considered Ruling by the Deputy Speaker. The Leader of Government Business is such person as the Government nominates. So, to that extent, Mr. M. Kilonzo is right. The question is: Has the Government informed you who is the Leader of Government Business? If you have been informed by the Government that the Leader of Government Business in the House is the Prime Minister, then it must be the Prime Minister. If you have been informed by the Government that the Leader of Government Business is the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs, then it must be the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in a situation where you have two letters from the same Government, then you must go beyond the communication that you received. Who is the âGovernment?â This is not the Government in the ordinary sense. This is a special Grand Coalition Government that was formed in very special circumstances for a very limited period of five years. During those five years, the normal rules of procedure that govern House business and the Constitution of Kenya stand to give way the agreements that created this Grand Coalition. In this Grand Coalition, the only party that is not in Government is the one headed by Mr. Cyrus Jirongo. All the other hon. Members from the two sides of the House constituted this Grand Coalition.
Therefore, when you are determining who is the âGovernmentâ, because there is no definition of the âGovernmentâ in any of the statutes that you have been referred to, although there has been a definition of the âPresidentâ--- Let us not beat about the bush about the executive authority or the Executive. We are talking about the Legislative arm of Government. So, Mr. M. Kilonzo is absolutely right, but we are not talking about the Executive arm of Government. We are talking about the Legislative arm of Government. The Legislative arm of Government is Parliament. A Committee of Parliament is a Committee of Parliament. The leadership of that Committee cannot be determined from State House. It must be a leader of this House, who enjoys the confidence of the House, and not one who is imposed from outside the House.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, therefore, if you have two letters indicating to you who is the Leader of Government Business, what you should do is make a ruling and call this House to a vote. Let us vote, because a Committee of the a House cannot supersede the House itself. The House Business Committee is just one of the Committees of the House. Its leadership must be subject to the House. It must enjoy the confidence of the House. Therefore, the person who does not sit in this House, except on ceremonial occasions, cannot determine for us who is going to be the Leader of Government Business. We know, from the Government Circular that has been the subject of interpretation in this House, that the Leader of Government Business in this House â the one who supervises and co-ordinates Government Ministries â is the Prime Minister. We cannot escape from that fact. If we are to escape from that fact, then we must as well abrogate the agreement that was so painstakingly done by the former Secretary-General of the United Nations.
We cannot ignore the National Accord and pretend that the President sitting in State House can determine for us, as he used to do in the days before the Grand Coalition
Mr. Speaker, Sir, unless we are careful, this House will stand accused by the Kenyan people of the crime of collective irresponsibility. We are setting precedent. You need to be careful in the ruling requested by the Member of Parliament for Kisumu West Constituency. As we know very well, somebody may tomorrow rise up in this House and say: âI declare myself the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces.â Somebody else might say: âI am the Chief Justice.â That is exactly what is happening! When the Coalition Government was created, exactly one year ago, there were several facts that we knew. The Prime Minister was appointed by the President. On that day, when the President ably stated that he was appointing a Cabinet and that he was considering regional distribution, during which I was demoted as the Minister for the East African Community, the Prime Minister was appointed. He is, therefore, a creature of the President. The impression that we have created here is that we cannot, as a House, elect a Committee of this House as provided for by the Standing Order No.158, which simply says: âThe House shall elect a House Business Committee.â Mr. Speaker, Sir, why should we be forced into semantics by two people fighting for power in Government? It is, sometimes, so embarrassing to see these two gentlemen, when they walk with the President in the middle, outpacing each other to see who will be in front of the other. It is a shame! If I were one of the two, I would simply say: âTake all the powers! Be the Chairman of the Committee! Be the Leader of Government Business! Be Chairman of all Committees in Parliament, if you are able to do so!â
These are egos must not be entertained in Kenya! The problem we have is, really, a constitutional deficiency. It is this constitutional deficiency that led to the skirmishes after the last elections. It is because our Constitution could not address everything. What we should address now is how fast we can change the Constitution to address the maturity of political development in this country. We need nothing more, nothing less!
A whole House of respected hon. Members has been made to discuss peopleâs egos! The people should elect you their boss and not yourself to dictate that you must be this or that, or you must have a toilet and a carpet!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, these are the so-called leaders who want to be elected as the President of this country in 2012. We are watching! Kenyans are watching the level of maturity of politicians in this country. Let us come back to our senses. Let us bring back our wisdom. As hon. Members of this House, let us address the situation that is on the
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I seem to share the sentiments of Dr. Machage. The formation of a Back Bench Opposition Caucus is overdue. There is a Government and we are told that all of us are in it. However, there are Ministers and Assistant Ministers charged with the responsibility of being in the Government, but are unable to come together and agree to play as a team. The only way they can play as a team is by us setting up a Back Bench Caucus. That is the only time they will realize that they have to come together.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it has come out openly, from the party leaders, that they will not allow us to serve in the Back Bench Caucus that is recognized by Parliament. They have had ample time. Kenyans cannot wait a minute or an hour to see this House bickering over who should become the Leader of Government Business or who should be part of the House Business Committee.
The political party leaders in this nation had ample time to marshal hon. Members to mudsling one another when it came to the issue of a red carpet or a toilet for the Prime Minister. Parties came together at that time. Others said that they would hold demonstrations. They had ample time to do that. However, they did not see the importance of putting in place the House Business Committee before this House resumed. That is why I am at a loss and Kenyans are watching.
In the old tradition, there was a Cushitic leader, and I want to share this story with hon. Members. He was a perfect leader who was supposed to give a ruling whenever contentious matters arose. The rule at that time was that when cows went and grazed on a maize farm, the height of the maize stalk was measured. Since there were no tape measures then, they used sticks to measure. The person whose cows ate the maize would be forced to fill the maize to the height of the maize stalk. I am saying this because when it comes to interpretation of the law, I am not a lawyer. The learned friends have spoken. I will call them âmy learned brothersâ because I am not a learned friend. There are as
Order, Dr. Nuh! You are estopped from making that request after you have contributed!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity. I think we have all sworn to defend the Constitution and the Standing Orders of this House. We are very many friends and opponents as politicians in this House. However, we are bound by one common thing, and that is to defend the Constitution and to follow the Standing Orders of this House.
The issue we are discussing, about the appointment of the Leader of Government Business in the House, is covered by Standing Order No.11. The relevant Standing Order reads as follows:- âAppointment of Leader of Government Business and Government Panel. 11. (1) The Leader of Government Business shall be appointed in accordance with Standing Order No.2.â Standing Order No.2 reads as follows:- âThe Leader of Government Business means the Minister designated by the Government as the Leader of Government Business in the House.â The only test that we should apply is whether there is a Minister who has been designated by the Government to be the Leader of Government Business in the House. In my very humble submission, the Government has designated a Minister to be the Leader of Government Business in the House. As the Speaker, you have accepted the Governmentâs appointment of the Leader of Government Business in this House. Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is in our knowledge that you are in receipt of a letter from His Excellency President Mwai Kibaki appointing---
On a point of order Mr. Speaker, Sir. I know and understand that the rules of this House bar repetitions. These things we are being told have been said over and over again.
Order, Eng. Gumbo! I am familiar with that provision in the Standing Orders. However, the discretion to determine what is repetitive and what is not is exclusively for the Speaker.
Mr. Murungi, please, proceed!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, just before I was interrupted by the hon. engineer, I was saying that the Government has designated a Minister to serve as the Leader of Government Business in this House.
On a point of order Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Minister to mislead this House that the Head of Government is the President when he knows very well that this is a Grand Coalition Government where there is a Vice-President and a Prime Minister?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is a general assumption that Members of this House are familiar with the Constitution and the Standing Orders. The Constitution makes it very clear that the President is the Head of State and Head of Government. I am, therefore, not misleading the House. Please, hon. Chanzu, read the Constitution, the National Accord and the Standing Orders!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are requesting you to make your own ruling as to whether the number that political parties should nominate is 21 or 20 in view of Standing Order No.158(6). It is for the Government to appoint the Chairman of the HBC.
Thank you Mr. Speaker, Sir. Today, we are faced with a very difficult question. However, I want to ask ourselves to look at the question before us more seriously. It is, indeed, a matter that is very weighty. The actual issue before us should be to ensure that this House is properly in Session. For us to have this House properly in Session, we have to have the HBC properly appointed. What is in contention is the question of the Leader of Government Business. That, in my understanding, is not a matter for the Legislature, unless it is brought to us.
That is a matter that must be handled by the Government outside this House.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Government is, at the moment, dysfunctional. It is not our fault as Members of Parliament that this Government is not functioning. We do not expect to be dragged through this mud!
The Government is not capable of functioning and; we should move a vote of no confidence in all of them and they go out!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are not going to waste Kenyansâ time. At this particular point in time, 36 people have been massacred in Karatina and apart of the territory of this country is under foreign occupation. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this Government is busy fighting and jostling over positions. There are times when we must rise above petty issues. I consider this issue as petty. We should constitute the House Business Committee as it is normally done. Whether the list of the House Business Committee has been forwarded to us by a Minister or the various Whips of the different parties or not, we want Parliament to be properly in Session. These are matters that will be determined by you and the Government. Indeed, if you are unable to do that, you should bring the issue to Parliament substantially, using the right procedures. We shall dispense with it.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Let us call a spade a spade. Enough is enough! Kenyans are watching us and are disappointed with us! That is the bottomline. We are all in the Government, save for Mr. Jirongo. All of us are in Government. We can no longer continue having a debate as to who is greater than the other. As it stands now, the Government is unable to release monies to attend to critical and crucial matters facing this nation and to feed our people because we cannot get on with the Business of this House, pass the Supplementary Estimates and other legislations as laid down by His Excellency the President. I want to agree with my brother, Mr. Ruto, that we need to establish who is the leader of Government Business and there is an interpretation that has been sought from you. But while that is being done, let us not allow our country to continue suffering. Let us present the list of the names of the House Business Committee and approve it, go out, set the business of the House and go on with the pressing business of running Government and this nation. I think we have had enough. We all agree that we have a Grand Coalition Government and we all agree that we have two principals in that Government. My own interpretation is that we have a President who is both Head of State and Head of Government and that is why he was sitting in your Chair, just the other day, giving his exposition on Government policy for this Session.
The country can no longer continue to wait and watch us play games. We are colleagues. We are sitting here with Mr. Ruto and Kenyans are watching us. Kenyans have had enough and they are saying that enough is enough. Please, let us bring an end to this. Let us present the names that we have. Let us go on with the business or make the ruling now so that we move forward. Mr. Speaker, Sir, please, bring order to this House and this nation and let us move on with the business! Otherwise, let us dissolve this House and go home and allow Kenyans an opportunity to elect the leaders they want!
Order, hon. Members! The first person who catches the Speakerâs eye is the one who was on his feet first! Mr. C. Kilonzo, proceed!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Some of us were in school when most of these senior politicians were seated right where they are. At that time, there was a professor of politics who was none other than the former Head of State, Daniel Toroitich arap Moi. Perhaps, we should look at how the man used to do his things. He knew that the seat of Leader of Government Business was very sensitive. Therefore, he devised ways to keep his students in tow . So, he came up with a system of shifts. One person would be the Leader of Government Business for one month and another one in the following month. However, since this Government is unique, and it is not just a Government but a Coalition Government where power is shared on a 50:50 basis, let us rise and agree that it is not a Government of the people from one party. It is a Government that was formed by two parties, and not even my party. My party is only a guest. They should take this country seriously and know that there are no people who are more Kenyan than the others. Let a Member of the PNU serve in the first term as the Leader of Government Business. The next Session should go to ODM and the other Session to another party. What is wrong? We are all Kenyans! Are we going to stand here and fight over the position of the Leader of Government Business? We saw this when we were students and these leaders were seated there. It is very unfair. They went to Kilaguni and could not agree. They are now bringing their battles into this House. Most of the Members here will not claim to be part of the Opposition purely because they want to make themselves very powerful. Their days are numbered and the people are tired! Kenyans out there are tired and we, Backbenchers here, are fed up. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to refer you to Standing Order No.35 and request, before I read, that this House should pass the names. Standing Order No.35 refers to the Order Paper and how it should be circulated. It reads: âThe Order Paper shall be prepared by the Clerk showing the business to be placed before or taken by the House in the order in which it is to be taken, together with such other information as the Speaker may from time to time direct to be shown therein.â What I am suggesting is very simple. We should pass the names because I believe that all the parties have consulted and leave the Government out there to sort out its mess. The House should continue with its business, regardless of whether they will agree or not.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to make my contribution brief. There are certain facts that we cannot run away from. One, we have a President who is the Head of State and Head of Government. That is a fact!
Two, we have a Grand Coalition Government. That is also a fact. When the Standing Orders refer to âthe Governmentâ, they do not refer to the President but to the Grand Coalition Government. These are facts that we cannot run away from.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I wish also to say that this is a very sad day for the country because we, as a House, are supposed to debate things, which are necessary for this country. There are many things that this House is supposed to address. Yet we are now discussing a matter, which we should not be discussing. As we have said, this is a matter which is specified in the Standing Orders. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I sometimes wonder whether we have Government of Grand Coalition or âgrand confusion.â I am saying this because what we are seeing here is total confusion on th part of the Government. The Members of the Cabinet are supposed to be talking and come up with something that they agree on. This is a matter which they should be discussing in the Cabinet and come up with something that we should work on. Leaders must continue agitating for essential and basic needs, which will help the people of this nation.
Order, hon. Members! We want to come to a close on points of order on this matter. I will, therefore, take two more persons, each from both sides.
So, hon. ole Ntimama is the first to my right!
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am going to be very brief in my contribution.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, people who think we are operating on the Constitution, are behind us. We are operating on the Coalition Government. It is said very clearly that if there is a conflict between the old Constitution and the Coalition Government, then definitely the Coalition must take precedence. We are in this condition because this country got itself into big problems. If we were not organized, if we did not create the Coalition Government, if our friends outside this country did not help us, we would be in the deep heats of the world today. Definitely, this is what people must understand. We were saved. We thought we would continue with this Coalition maybe, for a good time until 2012 when Kenyans would elect their own Government and Parliament. However, we already have problems. This is why when hon. Members here, with respect to lawyers who have a lot of reputation, refer to the Constitution, I feel a little bit unsafe. We were not able to get a new Constitution from Bomas. It was scuttled. We know what happened. Is it that the Lancaster House Constitution or Majimbo Constitution were not good enough? The President, who took over at that time, abrogated that Constitution. We know
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. What this country lacks is firm, decisive, consultative and sacrificial leadership. If we had a leader in this country with those qualities, we would not be seeing the bickering that we are seeing in this Government. To the public, this Parliament has become one of the most unpopular parliaments. We do understand that this Parliament came at a time when none of us wanted this country to cry for a firm, decisive, consultative and sacrificial leadership. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to challenge our President that, as a President, he must take the mantle and lead this country using those qualities. Again, as some hon. Members have said, we are facing several crises. There are issues of insecurity in this country and several other issues. Only yesterday, the Mungiki in his own backyard, killed 26 people. He must show firm and decisive leadership to this country. The reason we are having bickering is because of what hon. Samoei has alluded to. This list is something that this Parliament would have passed in a record one minute, because I do not think anybody has a problem with it. But what we are seeing here is play-out of dissatisfaction with the way the Government is being run. Unless we call a spade, a spade and not a big spoon, we will be wasting the time of Kenyans. Therefore, I am squarely challenging the President of this country to show firm leadership!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this House was recalled through the Kenya Gazette. That was sufficient notice for anybody who was interested in the business of the House to consult and then agree on what was required of them. This House was formally opened on 21st April 2009. At that point, in accordance with Standing Order No.18 (2), you required the Leader of Government Business to lay the Speech of the President on the Table, which he did. If anybody, again, was interested in the welfare of Kenyans, then they should have raised an issue at that particular point, but that was not raised. We are now being dragged back. Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have heard the arguments of our lawyers who have been trying to interpret the Constitution and the Standing Orders. If they are very keen on doing that, they can go and seek constitutional interpretation in court and have that matter settled there, because they are making reference to constitutional matters. The matter that has been brought to the Floor of the House is one that the Government should have decided on. Because they were unable to decide or agree, this matter was brought to your attention unnecessarily. Mr. Speaker, Sir, you are in a privileged position. In that privileged position of yours, I am sure you would not want to be dragged into unnecessary debate, because the law does not say at any point that the House shall decide who the Leader of Government Business will be. It is said that the âGovernmentâ is the one to decide who is to be the Leader of Government Business. It does not say that it is the House to do so. The House and your leadership have now been dragged into this matter. I tend to agree with the hon. Members who say that we should proceed with the list of Members, so that this House can have its business transacted. If the Government still continues with its confusion, then you can invoke Standing Order No.1, because the word âGovernmentâ has not been defined in the Constitution or the Standing Orders. Therefore, there is a gap in understanding what the Government is, or maybe a different interpretation. In the circumstances, then you can now invoke Standing Order No.1 and move this country forward in your privileged position. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
What is it, Mr. Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs, because we are finishing with Mr. Okemo?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, noting the mood of this dialogue and the tone of it, I realize that so many people still want to contribute. To the best of my knowledge, in accordance with your ruling, Mr. Okemo will probably be the last speaker. Will I be in order to humbly suggest to you that you give a few more people time because this is very useful dialogue?
Order, hon. Members! As I have ruled in the past, the Speaker is awake to circumstances as they may be today and as they develop and vary. So, given the mood of the House, I will allow a few more contributions but we will restrict them to not more than five Members from the right and not more than five from the left, beginning now!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I believe what we are dealing with today is a much bigger problem---
Order, Mrs. Kilimo! I have noticed that I need to respect gender balance. At the beginning, for the first 40 minutes, no hon. Lady Member stood up to catch the Speakerâs eye. That is a fact! The Speaker is accurate in his evaluation!
Proceed, Mr. Okemo!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, what I said was that the problem that is confronting Parliament today is much bigger than we are looking at. I think the problem goes way beyond just the leadership or chairmanship of the HBC. What we see here is the virus that exists in the Government that has made it dysfunctional and unable to work as one unit. Now the virus is beginning to come to Parliament to infect its functioning.
We have allowed ourselves to be sucked into a problem that is purely a problem of the Executive arm of Government. The truth of the matter is that the Government that exists today is not a Government in the ordinary sense of the word but it is a special Grand Coalition. We must live to that reality! We must recognize the fact that this is not just an ordinary Government voted in, in the normal way. I think it would be very short- sighted of us to forget what happened in December 2007. We should never forget what happened in 2007 and how we had a problem that paralysed this country. Now that we have peace that was brought about by the Coalition Government, we are behaving as if things are normal. What we have is a temporary solution and it cannot last forever. In fact, it will only survive if we are able to come up with a new Constitution in the next one year, otherwise; this temporary solution is not sustainable.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, my understanding of the Standing Orders of this House and the Constitution is that the Leader of âGovernmentâ Business is nominated by the Government. The Chair of the HBC is nominated by the Government. We have tried very unsuccessfully today to define what Government is because we are assuming that it is what exists in normal circumstances. We have a Grand Coalition Government; a new experience in Kenya, something we have never had before. So, we cannot continue as if we have a normal Government that was elected by a majority and has the mandate to rule. This is a Government that was put together to solve a temporary problem. Therefore, what we are seeing are manifestations of the workings of a failed Grand Coalition Government. Those are the facts of the matter!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we cannot sit here and pretend that the Government is composed of the President as Head of Government and Head of State with the Prime Minister as being appointed by the President. The reality of the matter is that we have two equal partners. One is Party of National Unity (PNU) and the other is Orange Democratic Movement (ODM). The other parties are appendages. However, that being the case, even common courtesy demands that if you have two partners, there must be some element of consultation. I do not know what is so difficult for President Kibaki and Mr. Raila to consult instead of subjecting Kenyans to all these worries and suspension. Why can they not just sit and agree? Yesterday, we suspended the House for consultations and we are coming back today and nothing has happened. Why? Because the two principal parties have failed to consult. By the way, this is going to continue even if we solve todayâs problem. The question of two principals consulting is going to continue. I do not even see why we are bringing you into this thing. It has nothing to do with you. You are supposed to be given the name of the Leader of Government Business (LGB) and the name of the Chairman of the Committee. There is nothing here for you to do. The two parties should go and consult and if there is any
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am very disappointed today. If you look at what has been happening since 2007, the country has not been stable politically. We are not really thinking about the future of Kenya. We can go on talking about Committees and all that, but let me tell you that the other countries around us are looking for ways of how they can take business away from Kenya! We do business with countries like Uganda, Tanzania and Congo. While we are here talking and fighting, they are looking for ways on how to cripple us. I think we should look at matters that are very important. This is a small thing. We should not be talking about Committees. We have bigger things to deal with in this country. So, it is very important for the two principals to sit down and sort out this issue once and for all. We want this country to function for the benefit of the youths of this country. So many people do not want to come and invest in this country now because they are not seeing stability. What are we doing to the future of our children? This is not fair! It is time we stopped all this and started thinking about the future of our country. Some of the people here, their sun is setting but we have others whose sun is rising. So, we cannot cut the future of the youth of this country and make it unstable. If we really care and love Kenya, it is time we did something. If we do not sort ourselves out as Members of Parliament, none of us will come back here again because Kenyans are sick and tired of us fighting everyday. The people who should make decisions should do so. We should stop all the squabbles. I kindly request the President and the Prime Minister to sit down and think about the future of the youth of this country. About 75 per cent of the population of this country is composed of youth.
Order, hon. Members! We must not have more than one hon. Member at any given time on their feet.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I need your protection because they are trying to intimidate me.
Will you please proceed to conclude? I want to urge hon. Members to henceforth last a maximum of three minutes.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the bottomline is that the two principals should take control of this country and make sure that the country moves forward.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is a very sad day for this country. Having listened to my colleagues, I want to say that this country requires unity. The country is yearning for its leadership to give direction. I want to say that we, as hon. Members, must rise up to the occasion and ensure that we correct the mess inside this House. The country is looking up to its leaders and we cannot continue being insensitive to the peopleâs wishes and feelings. I want to remind the Front Bench that they should not bring their mess to this House to the extent of making us not perform the duties that we came here for.
Your time is up! Mr. Munya!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, most of the issues have been highlighted by those who have contributed before me but where we need to look at this matter is the issue of who has the power to appoint the Leader of Government Business. Provisions of the law have been specifically quoted but there is a generalization that people have been making as to what the National Accord says vis-Ă -vis the Constitution. The National Accord did not remove other powers of the President that are in the Constitution except those specific powers given to the Prime Minister to supervise and co-ordinate Government activities. In fact, the National Accord says that he will do those duties and any other duties that may be given to him by the President. So, if the President chose to appoint the Prime Minister as the LGB there would be no problem. But as along as the President has not appointed him, even if he wished or desired to be, he cannot be until the President appoints him. That is the law! So, if the President decides to fire the Vice-President from that position tomorrow--- I am told he has already appointed him - if, in his wisdom, he decides that he wants the Prime Minister to serve in that position tomorrow, nobody will question him.
So, Mr. Speaker, Sir, as much as we want to ventilate this issue in this House and talk about it, we cannot decide on it as a House. It is a power that is outside the province of this House. It is a power that is exercised by the Head of the Executive, who is the President of this Republic!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as we go on, we have to be very careful! Many people, especially Cabinet Ministers and people working in the Government, really need to read the law and understand it carefully! That is because I am hearing people say: âEqual powers, two Principals!â The law does not talk about the two Principals! They were two Principals when they were negotiating the Accord. Once they negotiated the accord, we can only talk of what is specifically mentioned in the Accord and in the law!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, what I am stating is that I do not want to be involved in the politics of the two Principals, equal powers and all that business! I am stating the law. If you want to talk about the law, come and give us the specific provisions in the Accord or in the Constitution that say that the Prime Minister can appoint the Leader of Government Business! But when you talk in generalities, that we need to go and consult, let them go and consult! Consult over what? You cannot consult on a specific power that is already
Order! Your time is up!
Proceed, Mr. Musyimi!
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Sir. As you are aware, the Government has three arms. We have the Executive that seems to have its challenges. We have the Judiciary, and it is on record that our Judiciary needs serious overhaul. It would appear Mr. Speaker, Sir, that the only other arm where there may be hope for this country is the National Assembly, which you head. I cannot help thinking of the day we elected you early last year. I think we made a decision that could prove to be the savior of this country over the next four or five years. What am I trying to say? We have you seated there, and as you sit there, I am reminded of a certain book that talks about two ladies. Each of those two ladies had a child. During the night, one child died. In the following morning, they began quarrelling over whose baby that child was. Eventually, what happened is that somebody asked for a sword. It is the sword that solved the problem of who the mother of the child was. I have no doubt that you have the wisdom of that man. That is why we chose you. So, we ask you to call for the sword. But as you threaten with the sword, please, remember that this lady whose child had died was also a mother. She gave birth and she felt the pain of a mother, although her child eventually died.
So, Mr. Speaker, Sir, we look up to you for leadership.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order, your time is up!
Proceed, Ms. Ongoro!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to start by saying that the matter that is before us is very weighty, and we have built upon a foundation. That foundation was called national unity or the Grand Coalition. As a House, we cannot build upon any other foundation. This Government was formed on the basis of an understanding that there will be constant consultation between the two Principals. We cannot continue building on any other foundation but that which has already been agreed upon.
Considering what has been happening from yesterday, it is apparent that there was no consultation between the two Principals. As the two parties, PNU and ODM, and as hon. Members of this House, we cannot then sit and start talking about a child that was already born! We all agreed on the formation of a national unity Government. We cannot sit here and listen to some hon. Members of this House insinuate that one Principal is lesser than the other!
If that is the case, then we do not have any reason for sitting here! If that is the case, then can we all go back to the foundation so that we can really critically look at that foundation and critically deal with issues that, maybe, were not dealt with at that time.
Order, your time is up!
Proceed, Dr. Shaban!
Ahsante sana, Bw. Spika, kwa kunipa nafasi hii ili nizungumze juu ya jambo hili ambalo linawakera Wakenya sana. Siku hii ni ya pili. Tumekaa hapa na Bunge hili la Kumi limekuwa ni la wanasarakasi badala ya kufanya kazi iliyotuleta hapa.Tumekuwa tukifanya shughuli ambazo ni za kisiasa badala ya kufanya shughuli za Bunge hili. Bw. Spika, mwaka jana baada ya uchaguzi, Wakenya waliteseka sana! Wakenya walifurushwa makwao; Wakenya wameuana na Wakenya wengine wamebaki kiholela- holela, hawajui kama wao ni Wakenya au sio Wakenya! Bw. Spika, wakati huo huo, Wakenya walitulazimisha kukaa kwenye meza moja ili tuwe na Serikali ya mseto. Sasa hivi, Serikali ipo lakini kazi ambazo tunatakikana kuzifanya, tumesahau kuzifanya. Badala yake, tumeamua kufanya biashara kichaa kuwadanganya Wakenya badala ya kufanya kazi! Kila kukicha, Bw. Spika, wakati tunatakikana kutengeneza kamati hii ambayo itaendesha shughuli za Bunge, tumeamua kuwa kila mtu anataka kuligawia kiwango cha shughuli hii, ama ile ama ile nyingine! Na kila mtu yuko tayari kuja hapa kuweza kuzungumza lake na kusoma Katiba kiasi ya vile ambavyo amejaribu kuielewa ama kujifurahisha; yeye na huyo mkubwa wake ambaye amemtuma! Bw. Speaker, nafikiria kuwa kwenye Katiba, ni wazi kwamba tuna Raisi mmoja na Waziri Mkuu mmoja na, vile vile, tuna Makamu wa Raisi mmoja. Tunaomba kwamba, wakati huu ambapo Bunge la Kumi liko kazini kwa Muhula huu wake wa Tatu--- Muhula wa Kwanza na wa Pili, hatukusikia kukuru kakara hizi! Lakini, sasa hivi, tumeamka na tulikuwa ndotoni na tumegundua kuwa anayetakikana kusimamia shughuli hizi za Bunge hawezi kuwa ni yule yule! Bw. Spika, naomba utuonyeshe njia moja kwa moja! Ahsante sana, Bw. Spika.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Listening to lawyers, the first question I asked myself was: Do we really need lawyers in interpreting this? The people who are confusing this country are lawyers. We make laws then they come up and give their own interpretations. I doubt if most of them went to Lancaster House. In fact, the Committee of Experts reviewing the Constitution should not include lawyers. We should put people who are sober; people who will give us a good Constitution.
There was a reason why the Accord was negotiated. We passed the Accord in this House because neither side believed that the other won in the elections. If somebody can stand here today and tell us that all the powers are with one side of the Coalition, that person is living in the past.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we cannot, as a party, accept to share the responsibility and the dirt of mismanagement of this country, but when it comes to leadership you tell us that the person with the executive authority is So-and-so. When it comes to Mungiki killing people in Karatina, there is a Prime Minister. When it comes to hunger, there is a Prime Minister. When it comes to corruption, where is Kibaki and Raila? Today you come here
Order, Mr. Mbadi. Your time is up!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, last year I stood in this august House and said that the country was bleeding. This year, this time and yesterday, I said that the country continues to bleed. It is bleeding much more than even last year. What are the issues that the Chair has been called upon to adjudicate this afternoon? One, there was a point of order which was raised by the MP for Kisumu Town West, of the bona fide reconstituting of the House Business Committee. I think institutional memory will help you in making that decision.
Last year, my colleagues who were with me at Serena will bear me testimony; one of the most acrimonious and hotly debated issue was who should be the Leader of Government Business and who should subsequently be Chairman of the House Business Committee. I think it is only fair that we lay this matter before this House. At that time, the two sides had the two issues in the bracket. We could not agree and adjudicate on who should be the Leader of Government Business. I want to put it to you squarely that when there was an Accord signed by the two principals, the two square brackets were removed. Therefore, the position remained and the tradition was continued as we know it, the whole of last year, and part of this year.
I want to beg you that sometimes if you cannot beat through the law, then traditions speak louder than the law. In many countries it is the traditions that help to resolve some of the most complex issues like the one we are having here today.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, one of the decisions you have to make---
Your time is up!
I wish I had more time like others. Anyway, please do make that decision.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, sometimes it is appropriate for one to stand here and speak for their constituents. Sometimes it is even appropriate to stand here and speak as a Member of a political party. This is one of those times when you must stand here and speak for Kenya. As we speak and reflect for Kenya, I want hon. Members to reflect on these three issues: One, I have heard statements to the effect that if this stalemate continues, we could go for fresh elections. I want to caution Members of Parliament here that we should not even contemplate that because as we stand right now, we do not even have a body that could supervise an electoral contest in this country.
Secondly, this House should reflect and take note of the fact that it is not the responsibility of this House to determine the Leader of Government Business. So, we could sit here until kingdom come, but this House does not have the legal, or any other mandate, to resolve this matter. It is not a matter that we could even put to the vote and determine.
I must exercise my discretion for two hon. Members to share five minutes. Hon. Amos Kimunya, first.
The rest will have to lobby.
( Laughter )
Order, hon. Members! Mr. Kimunya caught the Speakerâs eye.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, listening to the arguments this afternoon, it is all about a challenge to the Chair. As the Chair, you have confirmed that you have received a letter from the appointing authority and you have gone ahead to recognize a Minister as Leader of Government Business. That decision is being challenged on the Floor of this House. All the arguments have been placed here in terms of who appoints, and what the constitutional provisions are. We are asking you to make a ruling on a decision you have already made. It is actually a challenge to your authority. I sympathize with your position because, for three days, we have actually wasted the taxpayersâ money.
As Kenyans sit out there, starving, killing one another and waiting for this House to do business, we are sitting here collecting allowances of Kshs5,000 per sitting, without giving value to Kenyans. I would like to ask the Clerk not to pay me for all the sittings I have attended here until we can properly transact business in this House. This is a fraud on the Kenyan people! If we start on that basis, then we shall start doing proper business rather than coming here, making all manner of arguments and we do not do any business. We then get paid and Kenyans are starving.
Order, Mr. Kimunya. Before you sit, the word âfraudâ is unparliamentary in the absence of any evidence. So, you must withdraw or table evidence of fraud.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I withdraw the use of the word âfraudâ and apologize for that.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Let me start by commending my friend, Mr. Chris Okemo, who made an extremely important contribution in this House today. For the many years I have been in this House, I have always pointed to that saying at the main door into this Chamber: âFor the welfare of society and the just Government of menâ. It is in that spirit that I would like to plead with the House. Please, let us not intimidate ourselves by saying: âKenyans are watching us; power-hungry individualsâ, et cetera .
Order, hon. Members! You have a new Chair! So, there is going to be a new discretion!
Mr. Lenny Kivuti!
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I will be quite brief.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I believe that the definition of âGovernmentâ is very clear. We have three arms of Government. We have the Executive, which is led by the President. We have the Judiciary led by the Chief Justice, and the Legislature which is led by the Speaker. To me, it is not in order that we should be spending so much time defining who is âGovernmentâ. For that reason, I would concur that, for the time being, we need to very much focus on what Kenyans need from us. When Kenyans watch us debate for three days on the constitution of one House Committee, it is not good for us. Speaking as a leader for Kenya, I strongly believe that we should be able to close this debate and form the Committee that we started forming yesterday. Once we form that Committee, let us, first of all, bring the other business, particularly that which affects the passage of the Supplementary Estimates, so that we are able to transact the business we came to transact in this House.
Without repeating what has already been said, I would like---
Order, Mr. Kivuti! You have run out of time!
Mr. Wakoli Bifwoli!
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I think the issue on the Order Paper today is not to know who should be the Head of Government. The agenda of our debate today is to have the list of the Membership of the House Business Committee. It is not the duty of this House to know who is the Government. If the Government is quarreling, that is not your business. I am
Order! Order, hon. Members!
Hon. Members, the point of order raised by the Member of Parliament for Kisumu Town West has been addressed very extensively. I think we must come to the end of the contributions, as I desired. The Chair is reasonably guided. We have listened to the contributions made by you, hon. Members, and we will take those contributions into account.
The matters canvassed are weighty in law. They are of far-reaching constitutional implications. Those matters are equally involving and complex, in fact. Therefore, the Chair will have to consider all those matters. So, I will make my ruling on the matter and deliver the necessary Communication on Tuesday next week. On Tuesday, at 2.30 p.m., the Chair will hold the sword but it will issue no threats. The Chair shall rule.
Hon. Members, we shall now revert to Order No.8.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise under Standing Order No.25 (1). It is important for the House to understand the consequences, as I mentioned yesterday, which the Chair had also mentioned, of the determination of this matter or this Motion.
Order, hon. Members. The Chair received a Motion from Mr. Farah Maalim in the terms that he has moved. The Chair has very reluctantly accepted the Motion, largely because, in accordance with our Standing Orders, this House has a right to move a Motion of Adjournment without restriction, save as maybe provided under the Standing Orders or any other relevant law. Under those circumstances, I have accepted that Motion. I have approved it and if there is a Seconder, we will listen to him.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to second the Motion of Adjournment. I have heard the sentiments of the hon. Members who have spoken. It is very easy to wish away this problem and suggest that it is a problem of the Executive. However, I intend to agree with Prof. Anyangâ-Nyongâo; that it is important that we do things in the right way. It is critical that these things be ruled on because even though we say they belong to the Executive, they rightly belong to this House. This is because it is the Committee that determines the business that would be transacted in this august House, whose primary purpose is to transact Government Business.
The implications of proceeding without either carrying the House with us or proceeding to the point of failure in passing the names are dire. The potential implications of that are not things we want to deal with. If you think about it, even though we are saying that we adjourn until next Tuesday, in the afternoon, the reality is that we adjourn to the next sitting day, which happens to be Tuesday. Therefore, we shall lose the next one-and-a-half hours. Nothing stops us, after consulting all we can, from coming here and passing this list, or whichever other amended list we shall agree on, on Tuesday as the first item. This desire to have a quick fix will just not work. I think it is critical that, that ruling be made.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the other thing we seem to have forgotten is that one of the Members also asked for a ruling as to the actual composition of that particular Committee. He also wanted to know whether that extra person nominated by the Government constitutes part of the total or is surplus to the figure we have set. How then do we hope to pass names today in anticipation of a ruling which we have not heard? In my opinion, I strongly support that we adjourn this debate because it will also allow us a lot of consultation. I am also an elected Member of Parliament and I appreciate that people out there have a problem with what is happening. But, again, there is a time to accept that, that is your role as a leader; that we will have to pay that price if that helps us to achieve a smoother way of transacting business. Do not ignore the fact that we have, hopefully, three-and-a-half years to go. If we get this right by waiting for one weekend, then, hopefully, it means we will have a smoother period within which we can transact much more business. Mr Speaker, Sir, with those few remarks, I beg to support.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the Motion of Adjournment and appeal to the House that consultation and concurrence on the decisions that we make in this House as a Grand Coalition Government, is important and will be in line with the National Accord.
For some of us who have been in the struggle for democracy in this country, we have known times when limiting opinion and discourse, and refusing to listen to the silent voices of the minority so that this country can go to the right direction, has been very costly to this nation. I remember, in 1997, when we were in the Inter Parties Parliamentary Group (IPPG) where we agreed on how the former Electoral Commission of Kenya (ECK) would be composed so that all parties could come together---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. It is not clear why we are adjourning. This is because we have not disagreed with the Motion about the list---
Order, Mr. Ruto! You have stood on a point of order and you cannot begin by saying that it is not clear why we are adjourning. It would be as if you want to question the Motion, which has already been moved and seconded. If you want to question the Motion, then you can do so by your contribution. So, you are out of order! As far as you have come, I do not see you getting into order any time soon!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. My contribution is going to be very brief. All I want to bring to the attention of this House is the importance of the Motion, both in the manner in which the hon. Deputy Speaker has moved it and the manner in which the Chief Whip has supported it. I really want to tell this House that this adjournment is necessary to give us enough time to consult and have a concurrence on how we shall appoint the House Business Committee. It is not the House Business Committee in terms of individuals, but a House Business Committee in terms of procedure. Laws are about procedures and are independent of the persons they affect. This is because, when laws are followed properly independent of our subjective feelings, we have good governance. What has been demonstrated in this House today is that this House needs, on this particular issue, to live to the spirit and letter of the National Accord. The National Accord says very clearly, that it is between two parties who signed it so that peace and good governance could return to this country in a Coalition Government that shall exist for a period of five years. During that period, the letter of the National Accord is very important in guiding the governance of this country. That is why the National Accord is very clear. We understand that there is a Constitution that assigns power to the President and all organs of the Government. However, for the time being while this Grand Coalition is in existence, certain procedures must be followed so that we can create political space to undertake certain reforms. As we begin to establish a very important committee of this House, and wait for your ruling on who the Leader of Government Business is, it is important that we go out there and consult, so that all of us are fully aware of the meaning and implications of the National Accord in the context of the reforms that we want to undertake. This is so that we do not come back to this House on Tuesday, not understanding what we are doing.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the time that is being asked for is not too long for this House to consult. The time being asked for is not too long for the people of Kenya to wait so that we do the correct thing. This House has the responsibility, as I said earlier, to make good laws and make sure that they are not against the principles and agreement we have committed ourselves to in this Grand Coalition Government so that it can run this country democratically.
I beg to support.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me this opportunity. I oppose the Motion of Adjournment.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the mood in this House now is, that we want to have the House Business Committee (HBC) in place. If we were to vote, we woulld have the Committee. What we may not have is the Chairman. That issue can be discussed during the weekend
Order, Mr. Gunda! As I sense from your contribution this far, you are out of order!
The Standing Orders provide for what you could do if you want this Motion to proceed to the vote. I do not think I want to allow you to go beyond where you are, if you are going to continue in that direction!
Mr. Githae, please, proceed!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, initially I was going to oppose this Motion of Adjournment. I have just come from Machakos where we had a meeting with five representatives from every local authority. Their message was not very pleasant. They are saying that Kenyans are tired. Kenyans are fed up with the way Parliamentary business is being conducted in this House. They say, for the last two days, this Parliament has not conducted any useful business. We have been unable to agree on a simple list of names. It is as if, if oneâs name is not in the HBC, it is the end of the world!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, Kenya is bigger than all of us. Kenya is bigger than your name being in the HBC. However, I know the implications of proceedings when we have not agreed. In the event that the list is rejected, I know the implications as specified in the Standing Orders. It would mean that this issue would not come again until after six months. In effect, it will be like having---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. It is not true that we disagreed on the list for Members of the HBC!
Order, Mr. Gabbow! For you to proceed appropriately, on your point of order, if you have facts or information which show that the hon. Githae is misleading the House, then you should challenge him as such. Do not relate to what happened in a meeting that you had. If you think the Member is factually wrong, then challenge him accordingly.
Proceed on your point of order, if you are able!
On a point of order Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Member to mislead the House that we are unable to constitute the Membership of the HBC?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am a lawyer by profession and I am very exact to the words. I said that âin the event a Member objects to any of the namesâ.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I know the implications of what would happen in the unlikely event of one Member objecting to a particular name and we have to go for a vote. If it is lost, it means that in effect, we would be forced to go on a six-month compulsory recess.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am saying that the message I was given to bring to Parliament is that we have enough problems in this country without adding more. We have enough problems without having power games in this House. Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have problems of the Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs), famine, we have criminal gangs like Mungiki, Taliban, Musumbij i and the rest,
Order, hon. Members, after listening to the last three contributions, the Chair is of the opinion that no new issues are being canvassed. Members are tending to be repetitive. So, I will put the Question!
Hon. Members, before we adjourn, I have one or two matters that I have to communicate on. First, hon. Members you will have heard this afternoon, in his contribution, Mr. Kimunya volunteered to forfeit his allowance for today because it is his feeling that he has not worked for it. Hon. Members, because this has gone on record, I have verified with Mr. Kimunya and he confirms that indeed, that is his intention. I therefore, direct the Clerk to withhold payment to the hon. Kimunya for today. Those hon. Members who wish to follow suit are at liberty to do so because the Kenyan public has previously asked me what I will do if a Member volunteered to forfeit his income. So, in compliance and with respect to what the members of public wanted to know, this is what I will do. So the Clerk is accordingly directed.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have no intention whatsoever to raise issue with any part of the ruling you have made. However, you have raised a very pertinent issue, which I think is proper for us, as a House, to address ourselves to. You have raised the issue of being unable to justify the allowances that we would be paid as hon. Members of Parliament ever since the President inaugurated this Session on Tuesday. Many hon. Members here have spoken to that particular issue in their contributions; raising the issue that, indeed, Kenyans are concerned that we are spending public money without them seeing value for it.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that, in that spirit, we, as Members of Parliament, agree to forfeit our allowances---
Order, hon. William Ruto!
Hon. William Samoei Ruto, you are a seasoned Member of Parliament. If I am not wrong, I believe you are doing your third term. You do not know, so as to move a Motion of that nature, that Motion must be prepared and forwarded to the Clerk who in turn passes it on to the Speaker, to approve. You then proceed and give notice of the Motion and you are allowed to move it.
Hon. Members, that brings us to the end of business for this afternoon. The House, therefore, stands adjourned until Tuesday, 28th April 2009 at 2.30 p.m.
The House rose at 5.35 p.m.