Mr. Speaker, Sir, on 19th August, 2009, the Minister for Industrialization issued a Statement outlining the reasons for the delay in the reopening of Pan-African Paper Mills, Webuye. In the course of the clarifications sought by hon. Members, the Chair referred the matter and circumstances occasioning the delay to reopen Pan-African Paper Mills, Webuye, to the Departmental Committee on Implementation to investigate and report back within three weeks. Mr. Speaker, Sir, let me take this opportunity to report to the House that the Departmental Committee on Implementation is actively dealing with the matter and, in its quest to give an opportunity to the Minister to appear before the Committee, a meeting is scheduled with the Minister on Friday, 11th September, 2009, before we submit the final report to the House. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Departmental Committee on Implementation realizes that this is the third week since the Chair referred the matter to us. It is in this respect that the Committee seeks the indulgence of the Chair to extend the period within which to report by a further two weeks to enable the Committee to finalize the matter and file a well considered and exhaustive report. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order, hon. Members! Ms. A. Abdalla, you may proceed to lay the Report on the Table but, after that, please, approach the Chair.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to give notice for the adoption of the Report that I have laid on the Table
Order, Ms. A. Abdalla! Taking the provisions of the Standing Orders as they are, and our practice, you cannot, at this point in time, give notice of that Motion because the Motion has not yet been approved by the Chair. But you may be able to do so tomorrow morning after I have looked at the Motion and approved it as appropriate.
asked the Minister for Medical Services:- (a) when he will post staff (clinical officers and nurses) and equip Ebusubi, Mumboha, Ebukanga, Emutsuli and Emusenjeli dispensaries which were constructed under the CDF program; and, (b) when he will also post clinical officers and nurses to Ebusiratsi, Ipali, Edwanda and Esiarambatsi health centers as well as Musitinyi Dispensary, which are understaffed?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) My Ministry has already posted two nurses to Emutsuli dispensary and will consider deploying a clinical officer once the on-going process of recruitment is finalized. The other facilities that have been built through the CDF are not operational. They are Ebusubi, Mumboha, Ebukanga and Emusenjeli dispensaries. They are not gazetted at the moment. However, they will be considered for gazettement in this Financial Year - 2009/2010. (b) The Ministry has already posted clinical officers to Ebusiratsi, Ipali, Edwanda and Esiarambatsi health centers. However, Musitinyi Dispensary will be considered along with others for deployment of additional staff, once the process of recruitment is finalized.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Ministry for posting clinical officers to the named dispensaries which have been lacking them for a long time. I would like to find out from the Assistant Minister the conditions we are supposed to fulfill in order for us to have the gazettement of the dispensaries that have been built using the CDF money.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I answered a similar Question in this House some time ago. I indicated that there were over 1,000 facilities across the country built by money from the CDF and they have not been gazetted. I also indicated that I had instructed all the Medical Officers of Health (MoHs) to inspect them for gazettement so
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is a very important Question because it cuts across the 210 constituencies in this country. Money from the CDF has been used to build many dispensaries. Any time Questions are asked here, the Assistant Minister always says that they will provide staff. Could he indicate to us when these health facilities will have staff? Kenyans are suffering because there are no doctors although the physical structures are in place.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have answered this Question before. I have said that we have about 36,000 nurses in this country. We have 17,000 nurses in Government facilities and another 17,000 in private facilities. We need 76,000 nurses to operate optimally. At the moment, we have about 6,000 nurses in the country, but we do not have money to recruit them. Indeed, we can only be provided money by this House. Therefore, we are unable to recruit more nurses and post them to these facilities.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to know when the Ministry plans to recruit nurses under the Economic Stimulus Package that was offered by the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance. What procedures will be followed and when do we expect this exercise to be completed?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we shall begin recruitment as soon as we receive the money from the Treasury. This exercise is normally done at the provincial level.
asked the Minister for Roads:- (a) to confirm the number of deaths that have occurred on the recently constructed Katito-Nyakwere Road; and, (b) when the Ministry will erect bumps at the market centres along that road to reduce the deaths occasioned by speeding motor vehicles.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) I confirm that there have been 12 deaths on the recently constructed Katito-Nyakwere Road. (b) My Ministry is monitoring the situation with a view of coming up with the most appropriate measure. Meanwhile, the Ministry has planned to install rumble strips in the markets along the road in the course of this financial year in order to slow down speeding motorists.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank the Assistant Minister for the answer which is quite relevant, except that the number of people who have lost their lives on this road has been under quoted. Last month, a matatu and a lorry collided on the same road and 12 people lost their lives on the spot. Despite all that, could the Assistant Minister tell this House when this will be done as a matter of urgency?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I understand and recognise the gravity of this issue. I send my condolences to the families of the people who lost their lives. However, it is important to know that the major causes of road accidents in this country are errors by
Is anybody interested in asking a supplementary question? Mr. Ochieng, ask the last question!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not want to ask any further question because I think the Assistant Minister has satisfied me in his answer.
asked the Minister for Roads:- (a) to provide a list of people who worked under the Kazi kwa Vijana Programme in Limuru Constituency showing the number of days each worked and how much was paid to each person; (b) to state the date when the Kazi kwa Vijana Programme started and when it ended, indicating the road works which were undertaken under this programme in Limuru Constituency; and, (c) when an audit for the work done will be undertaken and who will undertake it.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) I beg to table a list and copies of payroll of people who worked in Limuru Constituency under the Kazi kwa Vijana Programme, showing the number of days and how much was paid to each person.
(b) The Kazi kwa Vijana Programme started on 13th May, 2009 and ended on 30th June, 2009. (c) The constitutional mandate to audit Government expenditure falls under the Kenya National Audit Office (KNAO). However, as part of internal controls, I have instructed my officers in internal audit office to commence this exercise immediately.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order, Mr. Mwathi! You have an opportunity to ask the first question. Please, incorporate your point of order in the question.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have noted that the Assistant Minister has carefully avoided to answer part âbâ of my Question. This is because he has not stated the road works undertaken under that programme. He has only given us the dates when the programme started and ended.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in an answer to the hon. Memberâs question, I would like to table a list of all the roads that were undertaken under this programme.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in my constituency, a dam was allocated Kshs3 million under the Kazi kwa Vijana Programme. When Kshs1.7 had been used, the Ministry of Water and Irrigation indicated that it had exhausted the funds. What percentage of the Kazi kwa Vijana money is supposed to be used for administration costs?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am unable to answer that question considering the fact that he has mentioned the Ministry of Water and Irrigation. I have to compare notes before I answer it.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I mentioned the Ministry of Water and Irrigation but my question was: What percentage of the Kazi kwa Vijana money from the Ministry of Roads is supposed to be used to cater for administration costs? We should be told this so that we can know whether this money is used in the offices or to pay the young people who work in the field.
Mr. Speaker, Sir I do not have that information.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in view of the fact that this question about
cuts across many Ministries or many Ministries were involved at inception, could I be in order to request that this Question be âdeferredâ to the Office of the Prime Minister so that we can examine the amount of money used and how it has been audited?
The Question cannot be deferred to the Office of the Prime Minister. If it is deferred, it is deferred to be responded to by the same Ministry. Let us see if anybody else is interested in asking a supplementary question.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this programme is grossly abused in my constituency because most of the youth who do the roads are not paid. The administration gives ghost names so that they can pay extra money. What measures has the Ministry taken to ensure that the youth who do this work are properly paid and that there are no ghost workers who benefit under this programme?
I am not aware of that information; if the member has that information I would like to receive it. On the issue before me, I have carried with me all the documents that were used for payment of the workers. All the vouchers are here and I table them.
That is a satisfactory answer to that particular Question. Mr. Abdirahman!
I would want to know from the Assistant Minister what informs them in terms of allocation to constituencies for Kazi Kwa Vijana (KKV) and on average, how much they allocated to constituencies in the last financial year.
While I would like to give that information to the hon. Member, for the purposes of this Question, I did not carry that information.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the KKV programme implemented by the Ministry of Roads caused very positive excitement amongst the youth in this country. But the Question we are now asking, which I am asking the assistant Minister before the House, is, why was it stopped and when is it likely to resume?
The programme was stopped because we exhausted the finances and it will resume when we get finances.
Order Hon. Members! Order! What is it Mr. Abdirahman?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is very important for us to know how Ministries allocate funds, but the Assistant Minister simply evaded my question. We should be able to interrogate Ministers based on the information they give us. If we allow him to just get away like that, that will actually---
Your point is made! Mr. Abdirahman, the Chair has heard you. I heard your question. You asked the Assistant Minister to indicate what criteria he applied. Hon. K. Kilonzo asked that the Question be deferred by reason of the Assistant Minister being unable to have an answer as to the proportion of KKV money that goes into roads. In those circumstances, and so that the Assistant Minister can deal with those two aspects, I will defer this Question to Thursday this week. Mr. Assistant Minister, please, come with that information, including the information on how the KKV money is shared out among other ministries, so that we can satisfy the House.
I had a chance of looking at the---
Order, Mr. Mwathi! We have deferred this Question to Thursday this week; you can reserve further interrogation to that day.
Because this is not satisfactory Mr. Speaker, Sir---
Order Mr. Mwathi! I have deferred this Question to Thursday!
The Hon. Shakila Abdalla is away on an emergency in Lamu following the fire in Faza Island. Question No 031 is deferred to Tuesday next week.
asked the Minister for Education what steps he was taking to ensure that trained teachers are posted to Kalulu, Kandongo, Kilanga and Kamaembe Primary Schools in Mutito Constituency, which are understaffed.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. The Ministry will address the shortage of teachers in the named schools in Mutito Constituency and other constituencies country-wide through recruitment of additional teachers once adequate funds are provided by the Treasury. In the meantime, the Ministry will continue replacing annually the teachers who leave service through natural attrition, and will also continue balancing the existing teachers to ensure optimal utilization and equitable distribution in all schools, including those in Mutito Constituency.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is quite disappointing that now schools are being opened and there is shortage of teachers. Even the funds for free primary and secondary education have not been provided. Could the Assistant Minister tell us exactly when he expects to get this money, because there is nothing going on in the learning institutions?
First, learning is going on in the institutions, and the hon. Member should go and verify this in his constituency, because I know schools are on. As regards the funds, when they come to us from the Treasury we will act accordingly.
Mr. Speaker, sir, is it enough to have teachers in the classrooms and assume that there is learning?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, may I ask the hon. Member, through you, to repeat that question?
Hon. Ruteere, please repeat that Question. But Assistant Minister, please, note that you need to have all your attention in the House for as long as you are here.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, my question is: Is it enough to have pupils and students in the classrooms without teachers and assume that there is learning going on?
Mr. Speaker,Sir, We have teachers in all public schools in this country, except that they are not enough. So, the teachers that we have in schools are providing the necessary training to our students.
On a point of Order. Is it in order for the Assistant Minister to say that the teachers are adequate? In which way could he prove---
Order Mr. Mwangi! That is a question; you should rise and catch the Speakerâs eye!
Could the Assistant Minister inform the House why in the circular that has been sent to education offices in constituencies there is Kshs6 million for ICT when it has not yet been approved by this House? Could he tell us why it is in the circular or is it another scam?
ICT is handled by the Ministry of Information and Communication and not by our Ministry.
Order Mr. Shakeel! This is not Webuye market.
Thank you Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Hon. Shakeel is not from Webuye.
Mr. Speaker,Sir, that was done in the last financial year. We recruited 14,000 teachers.
Order Mr. Koech! You are out of order! You seem to be grumbling. At any one time--- You read your Standing Orders, and will see that they say that only one hon. Member shall be on the Floor. As the Assistant Minister responded to a question you were on your feet, and you remained on your feet all the time. You cannot be allowed unfair advantage against your colleagues.
Is the Assistant Minister aware that it is not enough to have students in the classrooms, without teaching and learning materials, and, therefore, see the urgency of remitting funds for procurement of the same?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not sure that I got that question well; but I think we have the facilities and the equipment that are needed for teaching in all our schools.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Assistant Minister to mislead the House by saying that the ICT Bus is not part of the Ministryâs programmes when it is clearly in the circular of the Ministry of Education at each level and the constituencies? Is it in order for him to mislead the House?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we looked through the Printed Estimates for the whole Government here and saw that the Budget line for ICT is in the Ministry of Information and Communication. Please, refer to the Printed Estimates.
Last question, Mr. K. Kilonzo!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, clearly, the Assistant Minister has no adequate answer for the Question. I want him to tell us when funds will be available. I want him to give a specific time because âvery soonâ is vague.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, may I inform the hon. Member that nobody has indicated to him âvery soonâ. I would now like to tell him that money will be availed as soon as the Ministry of Finance releases it to us. That means âvery soonâ or immediately we receive it.
Fair enough! Hon. Members, Question No.138 is deferred to Thursday, this week, because the Member of Parliament for Mumias is away on Parliamentary Business in the Rift Valley Province.
asked the Minister for Energy:- (a) to explain the causes of the frequent power blackouts in Lodwar, which has caused damage to electrical appliances in business premises and posed a health hazard to the mortuary; and, (b) what urgent steps he is taking to rectify the current situation and ensure a reliable and steady supply of electricity to the residents.
Minister for Energy? Is there anybody holding brief for the Minister for Energy, so that we know where he is?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not know where he is but I promise to tell him that there is a Question before the Floor of the House.
We will leave the Question and return to it a little later, assuming that the Minister will be here by then, and have an explanation as to why he delayed.
Next Question, by Member of Parliament for Sigor!
asked the Minister of State for Public Service:- (a) whether he could consider decentralising the recruitment of Clerical Officers and Support Staff at district level; and, (b) whether he could also do away with the requirement of computer knowledge for applicants from districts that do not have electricity supply.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) In order to address challenges presented by the practice whereby recruitment of lower cadre personnel was centralised, the Government approved the operationalisation of the district-based recruitment policy for Clerical Officers and Support Staff in Job Groups âAâ to âFâ in the entire Civil Service. Subsequently, my Ministry issued Circular No.NSPS18/A1/9120, dated 5th June, 2009 to Ministriesâ Provincial and District Commissioners for implementation of the new policy.
I beg to table that Circular.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank the Minister for a job-well- done. However, we have several districts that do not have supply of electricity in this country. In the spirit of collective responsibility, could the Minister tell us when those districts are going to be supplied with electricity, so that they can be at par with other districts?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, if I heard the hon. Member correctly, he is talking about electricity. I talk about human capital, and not electric energy.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order, Mr. Litole! Yes, Dr. Eseli!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is the second time the Minister has assured this House that recruitment of this cadre of staff is going to be decentralised to the district level. He is now telling us that they have applied for the jobs centrally but they are going to be disaggregated to the districts. Could he tell this House what informed the Ministry to still allow the central application and then disaggregate those applications to the districts?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, my problem has been the quick separation of districts. I have not been able to recruit enough human resource management personnel to be posted to all the districts. That is why we are using the capacity available. We will then set up teams to do the interviews over there. Right now, so many districts do not have the relevant district personnel to undertake the decentralised work. Just give us time. We will catch up.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I know from the Minister whether the new districts are still legal, arising from the court ruling that was made recently?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, mine is to look for personnel to work in what is constituted. If they are illegal, my responsibilities will be reduced.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am just looking at the Circulars that the Minister has tabled before the House. One of the things he is talking about is to ensure that there is regional balance, improvement of service, fair distribution in recruiting officers in the Civil Service at the lower levels. That is the reason as to why the Government has introduced the District-based Recruitment Policy. I want to follow up the same question, because we are dealing with a Minister of Government here. We are talking about recruitment at district level. We have been told by the High Court that there are some districts which are not legal.
Order, Mr. Mungatana! It is Question Time!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me ask the question: Can we have it authoritatively stated that the Minister will continue recruiting even at the level of those administrative units that have been declared districts even though we know that the High Court has said that some of them are illegal? We want that authoritative statement from the Minister.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, my policy area is dispersion of recruitment. Whether the districts are legal or illegal, that is somebody elseâs responsibility. So long as an area is an administrative unit, it is my duty to recruit fairly in every geographical region; we will strive to implement the District-based Recruitment Policy. In any case, it is just a matter of dividing several districts. If there are still old districts, I will strive to implement this policy at that level. Even at that level, where the districts are large enough, the recruitment teams will need to take into account the constituencies within those larger district areas. So, as far as the policy measure is concerned, it is to give opportunity to recruits to come from all geographical regions. Even within large districts, opportunity will be given to people in constituencies within such large districts. So, my policy measure will still be implemented, pending legalisation for whatever district boundaries exist and are acceptable to everybody.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister says the personnel officers will be recruited. However, he has not given us a time frame when these officers will be recruited because many districts are suffering.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, because of the large numbers of human resource requirements it will take us up to as long as six months to be able to man or get the personnel in the regions to be able to implement this policy effectively.
asked the Minister for Regional Development Authorities:- (a) how much development money was allocated to Uwaso Ngâiro South Development Authority in the 2008/2009 financial year,
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) The Government of Kenya Development Allocation for Uwaso Ngâiro South Development Authority for the Financial Year 2008/09 was as follows: Development Vote, Kshs46,500,000; UNEP grant for Maasai Mau Forest was Kshs9,258,892, totaling Kshs55,758,892. Out of the said amount budgeted for development in the financial year, only Kshs30,067,072 was received. This translated to a deficit of Kshs16,632,928. (b)The total amount utilized by the Authority on development programmes was Kshs39,325,962, inclusive of the UNEP grant. (c) To ensure that the funds are utilized efficiently, the following measures have been put in place: 1. All development projects are drawn in line with Government policy and development goals and are based on the authorityâs five year strategic plan. 2. The Ministry has put the UNSDA under performance contract in which development programmes or projects and activities are part and parcel of the performance target that the board and management of the authority are expected to implement within the stipulated time frame. 3. In addition, the Ministry has put in place a monitoring and evaluation system that carries out regular progress status review of the projects for effective and timely implementation.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Assistant Minister for the answer. Could he go further and explain the criteria or procedure used to identify the 24 schools which benefitted from Kshs13 million of the original fund?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the 24 schools benefitted from tree nursery planting around the Mau Forest. They were each provided with 5,000 litres of water tanks through the UNEP grant. The management plan for the forest was also done. They are from both Narok North and Narok South constituencies. The criteria used were in line with the UNEP grant. Part of that money was from UNEP grant. A baseline survey was done by the UNSDA around Narok only. They came up with those 24 schools for the two constituencies.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister tell the House what percentage of overall expenditure is the Development Expenditure?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, out of the Kshs39,325,964, Kshs30,067,072 went to Development Expenditure. The percentage is about 90 per cent. It is Kshs30 million out of the Kshs39 million budgeted for.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I thought the Question that was asked is about development money. The Assistant Minister said the total is Kshs55 million. I think he has given us the figures for Recurrent Expenditure, so that he gets the total. I think he is confusing us.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Question is on the Development Vote. The whole Kshs39 million is for Development Vote. In the figures I have given, there is no money for Recurrent Expenditure.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, in creating all regional development authorities in the Republic, the Government was motivated by a desire to spur development in these regions. As long as the regions are underfunded, this objective will never be met. What is the Ministry doing about the stalled headquarters of the Lake Basin Development Authority which this House recommended that the concept should be build, operate and transfer? What is being done?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member is quite right on the objective of the creation of this Regional Development Authorities. He is also quite right when he says that they are all under-funded. All the six of them are under- funded because they all rely on Treasury funding. We have recommended the system of build, operate and transfer. The Lake Basin Development Authority headquarters has stalled and requires Kshs800 million for it to be finished. We are considering that process of build, operate and transfer and it is in progress.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, these authorities have the tendency to use money on the lower part of the areas under their jurisdiction. Part âbâ of the answer says the amount was utilized. It is important for us to know how this money was utilized. How much of it was allocated to the upper zones that have the water towers which feed these authorities downstream?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I really share the concern of the hon. Member, but unfortunately, the Regional Development Authority that is the subject of this Question, does not extent that far. With regard to how these funds were utilized, I hereby table the detailed report on each activity undertaken, the cost and status of the activities done. It is all totaling to the said amount.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the expenditure of the money, the Assistant Minister pointed out that over Kshs3 million was paid to contractors. Could he list the names of the contractors, and state what contractual works they were paid for?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, at the moment, I do not have the details of how much the contractors were paid. However, I welcome the hon. Member we go through the Kshs3 million that went to contractual jobs and see how it was paid. I can provide full information on that.
asked the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security:-
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) The qualifying criteria used in the recruitment of Administration Police Recruits for the recently completed Administration Police recruits course number 12009 from the National Youth Service require that any prospective candidate must have successfully completed NYS basic course. In addition, candidates must possess the following basic requirements in order to be eligible for selection into the Administration Police force:- 1. They must be Kenyan citizens 2. Education qualification â KCSE, Grade D plus and above 3. They must be medically fit 4. They must not have a criminal record They are required to have grade tests professions, specialization or talent. They are also required to be between 18 years and 28 years. (b)The criteria is, therefore, based on NYS units, professional qualification and individual interest to join administrative police force and not on districts, as in the case of ordinary recruitment.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister has given a very evasive answer to the Question. I asked about the issue of fairness in the distribution of the recruitments. In Part âCâ I asked about the per district breakdown of the number recruited. He has said that the recruitment was not based on districts. However, he can still give us the list as per the distributions per district. What he has shown here is the criteria for joining the Administration Police. That is the same criteria for joining NYS except for grade test, profession, specialization and talent. I believe the Assistant Minister has given a very evasive answer and unless he clarifies those issues, I would like him to go back and bring a list of the breakdown per district.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we need to know that these candidates were originally recruited through another Ministry by the NYS. These are NYS trainees in various field stations. They were recruited because it is Government policy to also offer them opportunities in the Civil Service, military, police and administration police. But if you analyse and look at the people taken, in my view, they truly reflect the face of Kenya.
I think Dr. Eseli Simiyu made his case. Assistant Minister, you have not answered the Question. So, the Question shall be deferred. When are you ready to answer the Question?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if it is required that I should go and check the identity cards and provide the list of all candidates as recruited by the NYS originally in all those stations, then I require a lot of time. I will possibly require two weeks or three weeks.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the Assistant Minister in order to continue misleading this House, when the Ministry of State
Mr. Assistant Minister, we do not need to squander the valuable time of the House. This Question is straightforward. It is your business to know where Kenyans come from. The Question is therefore, deferred until Thursday afternoon, this week.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. As the Assistant Minister gets more information on this Question, it would be useful for him to also tell us the criteria for the recruitment of the Commissioner of Police and if he is satisfied that a whole Commissioner of Police can also be---
Order, Mr. Mungatana! This Question is about recruitment of Administration Police from the NYS. Assistant Minister, ignore that!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, to do justice to this House, I require a week to compile the list. What I have now is general distribution per province. So, I need to go into the details.
Where is the list?
I do not have the list now! I am not in the Department of Defence (DoD)!
Assistant Minister, speak through the Chair! I think the Chair will be considerate with the Assistant Minister. Let us give him a week and that is only but next Tuesday. Question deferred to next Tuesday!
DIRECTOR OF PENSIONâS FAILURE TO USE ACTUARIAL REPORT IN IMPLEMENTING PENSION INCREASES
asked the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance:- (a) why the Director of Pensions Department did not use the Actuarial Report prepared by the professional Actuaries in the year 2006 in implementing pension increases;
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a)The Pensions Secretary/Director of Pensions relied on the Cabinet decision in implementing the pension increase in the year 2006. The Cabinet decision was informed by the report of a professional firm of actuaries dated August 2005. (b)The Government spent a total of Kshs7, 500,000 in the production of the actuarial report. I hereby table the Report before the House.
(c)The pension increase granted in the year 2006 was backdated to 1st July 2005 as directed by the Cabinet. No other pension increase has been approved by the Cabinet as yet.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, does the Government have any plans to ever increase the pension for pensioners?
Could you, please, repeat the question?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, does the Government have any plans to increase the pensions?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Government has increased pensions three times. The first increase was in 2006, when the Government raised minimum pensions from Kshs500 to Kshs2, 000. The same year, the Government increased that pension by Kshs300 to make it a minimum of Kshs2, 300. In 2009, the Government increased the pensions from Kshs2, 300 to Kshs2, 600. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Government has also incorporated a permanent increase which will be effected every year. This increase is 3 per cent every two years. That is the Governmentâs plan.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, what is the Ministry doing to minimize delays in the disbursement of pensions to pensioners?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the delays in disbursement in pensions are caused by several factors. One of the factors is the delay in processing documents at the source which is the Ministries or departments employing people. It is not necessarily from the Ministry of Finance. The pensions department is computerizing to make it more efficient in the disbursement of funds.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, you heard the Assistant Minister say that the Governmentâs policy is to increase pension by 3 per cent every two years. I am sure that he is aware that the inflation rate is well over 10 per cent per annum. Is this arrangement really fair?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this increase of 10 per cent, we are aware, is not sufficient. However, this token amount is informed by the fact that the pension bill increases by 25 per cent every year. This is a big burden on the Budget. Though it may not be fair, at the moment that is the much we can do.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, is the Assistant Minister, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance, really serious when he talks about the pension being Kshs2300, and he says that he has raised pension by Kshs300 when we know that, that amount is still below the poverty line. He understands that living on a dollar per day is living below the poverty line? Is the Ministry of Finance comfortable keeping retirees below poverty line?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this policy was instituted after the research report I have just laid on the Table; there were people who were getting only Kshs100 for pension. Due to the concern to uplift the standards of living of Kenyans, the Government increased this amount to a minimum of Kshs2,000, which was many thousands per cent increase. We have now instituted a constant increase of 3 per cent every two years. I do not think we have done very badly.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the year 2006, the Ministry of Finance recommended that pensionersâ payments be increased and backdated to the year 1997. However, the then Minister for Finance made recommendations relying on the Actuarial Report, which was done by the professional firms. The Assistant Minister is misleading this House, saying that the Cabinet relied on the Report when the then Minister for Finance made recommendations based on the Report, which was disregarded by the Cabinet. My question is, therefore, why did the Government disregard the recommendations by the professional firms which did the Acturial Report?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the recommendation by the Report was not binding on the Government. The Government is implementing it piecemeal, depending on our ability to meet our obligations contained in that Report. However, there was no recommendation by Ministry of Finance that these benefits be backdated to 1997. The only backdating which was done was from July, 2005 to July 2006.
asked the Minister for Agriculture:- (a) what the Ministry is doing to cushion tea farmers against unpredictability and decline in tea prices and whether KTDA has any plans to link individual tea factories to tea buyers abroad to maximize on tea prices; (b) to confirm that tea factories continue to use firewood to dry tea, despite wood being uneconomical, and its use posing a major threat to environment protection efforts; and, (c) what steps the Government is taking to ensure that coal is available for use in tea factories as an alternative source of fuel.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) To cushion tea farmers against any unequitability and declining tea prices, my Ministry, in conjunction with the Tea Board of Kenya and other stakeholders, is undertaking the following activities: One, it is encouraging value addition of the
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank the Assistant Minister for trying to answer the Question. However, it is a pity that the country continues to use the old method of fuel. We all know that cutting down of trees in this country has taken us to a dangerous stage. For how long will they continue using firewood when we know that by using coal, you can cut costs by 60 per cent?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the cost of producing or drying tea leaves with firewood is Kshs8. When you use funnels and other methods, it costs Kshs18. We know that there has been exploration of coal. We are consulting with the Ministry of Energy to tell us whether what has been found can be used commercially before we start encouraging factories to use it. Some factories have started running their own mini-hydro factories and they are using their own electricity to dry these leaves. Therefore, we are very much aware and are concerned, although at the moment, we know that the acreage which has been planted with trees is 3,932. We intend to encourage that 2,255 acres be planted with trees this season.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Assistant Minister to tell us that there are things called hydro-power factories? What are they?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I talked about mini- hydro power generators. This is water used to generate power, which is used to dry the leaves.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker. It is very clear that the Government is killing the tea industry as it has killed the coffee industry and the pyrethrum industry in Kisii. Could the Assistant Minister tell us what value-adding measures he has put in place to ensure that small-scale farmers gain from tea? Where I come from, the farmers are about to uproot tea trees. Could the Assistant Minister explain this?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, first, I would like to correct the hon. Member. The Government is not encouraging destruction of the tea industry in this country. In fact, we have put a lot of money into the tea industry to make sure that farmers get returns worth what they invest in their shambas. As far as value addition is concerned, we now have factories which are producing different types of tea. For example, we have the orthodox tea, green tea and the ice tea that is being produced. All these things are being done to make sure that the farmer gets more his tea.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not happy with the way the Government is treating tea farmers and tea issues. One of the ways that tea farmers lose their proceeds is through levies to support Tea Board of Kenya and Tea Research Foundation. Could the Ministry consider funding those bodies through the Exchequer?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Government has put a lot of money into the tea sector. We cannot afford to fund the levies. Those who are
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the core business of Kenya Tea Development Authority (KTDA) is to market tea that is produced in this country. But of late, I understand that KTDA has turned itself into a tea bank. Could the Assistant Minister confirm whether KTDA is changing from being a marketer to a banker?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, KTDA is still a marketer. The bulk of the tea goes through the agency and is sold through the auction in Mombasa.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Assistant Minister is avoiding my question. KTDA has already put aside Kshs160 million to start a tea bank. The Assistant Minister is now only telling us that---
Order, hon. Wambugu! You only asked the Assistant Minister to confirm. He has confirmed that KTDA is a marketer. He did not deduce the information that you are giving now.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this Question is about the prudent use of energy by the Ministry. But I have heard the feeble attempt by the Assistant Minister to say that the Ministry is impotent in advising tea factories on prudent use of energy. That is not the right way to go. What concrete steps is the Ministry taking to ensure that there is prudent use of energy? The Ministry should encourage tea factories to install hydro-electric generating plants and also harness sun power?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is true that some factories are experimenting with solar and other sources of energy. We are encouraging tea factories to do that.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister has talked about value addition by processing tea, marketing and products diversification. Could the Assistant Minister tell this House whether that has started and if not, when it will start? At the same time, he should tell this House whether there is a possibility---
Order! Mr. Maina Kamau, ask one question at a time!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, he should tell this House whether there is a possibility of farmers selling their tea through other agencies and not KTDA?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the things that I have highlighted are in progress. For instance, I have stated what is going on with regard to value addition. I have also talked about what is being done about market diversification. We used to have specific countries where we sold our tea. But now, we are selling it to other places like Iran, China, Russia, Poland and other Asian countries. The other thing is about product diversification---
Order, Mr. Assistant Minister! The hon. Member wanted to know whether you have started that process and, if not, when you will start.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have started.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, there are some factories which are doing that. Value addition was inaugurated by the Minister last month in Kangaita.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Instead of farmers going through KTDA, could they be allowed to sell their produce directly in the market?
Order! That is not a point of order!
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I rise to seek for a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Agriculture. First, could he clarify whether the current sugar shortage is real or artificial? Secondly, why is he allowing the importation of non-COMESA sugar into the country, duty-free, which is against the law? Thirdly, what would be the fate of the farmers, workers and their families within the sugar-belt, who are likely to be hurt by that free-for-all importation?
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I rise to ask for a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Member for Nyakach sought for a Ministerial Statement, but there was no communication from the Minister.
The point is made, but we have not concluded the session yet. Proceed, hon. Kioni.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to seek for a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs. The issue of the re-appointment of Justice Aaron Ringera, Dr. Wanjala and Ms. Fatuma Sichale has generated a lot of interest within this House and in the public. However, it has
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Listening to the request for the Statement, clearly, this request is a set up and is meant to stop the Committee on Delegated Legislation from presenting its report. The subject of my friendâs Ministerial Statement is the subject that the Committees are dealing with. The issue at the moment is not the competence or otherwise of Justice Ringera. The issue is whether the proper procedure was followed. This Statement is, in my humble view, meant to circumvent the report of the Committee and should be disallowed.
Order, hon. Olago! Order, hon. Members! Hon. Members, there is a Communication on this subject and I want to urge the hon. Members to be patient and await that Communication. It will come presently.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to seek for a Ministerial Statement from the Rt. Hon. Prime Minister---
Order, Dr. Eseli! Dr. Eseli, you have not complied with the Standing Orders as they stand today in the sense that, if you want to request for a Ministerial Statement, then you must approach Mr. Speaker, at least, one hour before the Sitting commences. To the best of my knowledge, you have not approached me one hour before this Sitting commenced. The Standing Orders are very clear, unequivocal, categorical and so explicit. So, we cannot short-circuit those Standing Orders. Hon. Ethuro has informed me that you approached him this afternoon, while he was on the Chair. That is just about 15 minutes ago. That does not comply with the Standing Orders. I am afraid you cannot make that request now. You may do so, perhaps, tomorrow after you have consulted the Chair.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the remedy for any debt is to pay it.
What are you doing, Mr. Mbugua?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the First Lady has been dragged---
Order, Mr. Mbugua! Whatever you want to do must find anchoring in the Standing Orders. So, you must satisfy the Chair that, first, your action is now within Order No.7, which relates to Statements. Up to where you are, I am afraid that I am not satisfied because I have not received any indication that you will request for a Ministerial Statement. To that extent unless you persuade me otherwise, you are actually out of order. So, do not proceed to say anything else that is outside Order No.7, because if you do so, then you must be prepared to take the consequences!
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I had sought two Ministerial Statements from the Minister for Lands; one on the settlement of squatters in Solio Ranch, which was issued last week and the second one on the fate of Mt. Elgon Hospital in Kitale, which has not been issued for over three weeks.
Fair enough! Is the Minister for Lands here? Are you ready to proceed with that Statement on the fate of Mt. Elgon Hospital?
I am not ready, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
How long do you require to issue that Statement?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, tomorrow afternoon.
It is so directed!
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Two Minutes ago I sought a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Agriculture but unfortunately, up to now, the Front Bench has not undertaken to respond. I do not know when that Ministerial Statement will be issued.
The Minister for Agriculture or any other Minister holding his brief!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like the hon. Member to give me the details of the Statement and we will issue it next week.
Issue the Ministerial Statement on Tuesday, next week!
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I sought for a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs. I would also like to know when he will issue it.
The Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs, when will you issue the Ministerial Statement on matters pertaining to the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC) notwithstanding the Communication I will make just now?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, notwithstanding the Communication you will make now, I have requested you for leave to raise a further point of order. I will issue that Statement even tomorrow, if you allow.
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Fair enough! It is so ordered!
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
What is it, Mr. Mungatana? Is it on the same matter?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Then, leave it at that!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, Mr. Mungatana had requested for a Ministerial Statement and I would like to make it.
Are you sure that you can issue it within five minutes?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the issue raised by Mr. Mungatana relates to whether the Government should sell profitable parastatals; how much money will be raised through the privatization of the parastatals; whether the institutions to be privatized are a burden to the Treasury to warrant their sale; whether the proposed privatization will protect employees who will be retrenched once investors have taken over the Government agencies and whether the Cabinet has reached consensus on the matter. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the desired objectives of privatization of State corporations are clearly stated under Section 18(2) of the Privatization Act enacted by this House in 2005. These include, the improvement of infrastructure and delivery of public services by the involvement of the private capital and expertise; the reduction of the demand for Government resources; generation of additional Government revenues by receiving compensation for privatizing; the improvement of the regulation of the economy by reducing conflicts between public sector regulatory and commercial functions; the improvement of the efficiency of the Kenyan economy by making it more responsive to market forces; the broadening of the base of ownership in the Kenyan economy and the enhancement and development of capital markets. These objectives clearly demonstrate that a State corporation does not need to be loss making in order to be privatized as there are many benefits to be achieved through privatization. It is for this reason that in the Gazette Notice I have outlined specific objectives to be achieved in each of the State corporations to be privatized. Mr. Speaker, Sir, one of the objectives of enacting the Privatization Act was to entrench the privatization process into law. The law, therefore, stipulates a very transparent process to be followed and disclosures to be made. Let me assure this House that this process is being strictly adhered to. Indeed, the Gazette Notice referred to by the hon. Member is a requirement of the Act under Section 17(3) of the Privatization Act, 2005. With regard to the approvals required under the Privatization Act, there are two main approvals by the Cabinet. This includes the approval of the programme which was granted on 11th December, 2008. That is what has been gazetted in line with the requirement of the Act, as I have just indicated. Some of the details sought by the hon. Member include expected proceeds. This will be known once the professional valuation of specific companies is undertaken as part of the preparatory work to be carried out by the Privatization Commission and once actual bids are received and evaluated. As part of the privatization process, the Act
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance for his Statement. However, I would like to table the Report of the Privatization of State Enterprises by the Government of Thailand, which is on-going. It is not just in Thailand, but also in the Hellenic Republic of Greece and the United Kingdom (UK). Mr. Speaker, Sir, the main purpose of privatization which is stated in this Report, is to ensure that the fiscal burden of state enterprises is reduced. This is to say that the loss making parastatals are the ones that are supposed to be done away with for the benefit of the Republic. In the published Gazette Notice, we have the Numerical Machining Complex which we have no problem with. It is listed as having idle assets. We can privatize that parastatal and make it profitable. However, the Kenya Ports Authority (KPA) has declared a profit of Kshs5 billion and KenGen has carried one of the most successful Initial Public Offers (IPOs) in the country. What is the justification for selling these national assets? Why are we selling the family silver?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, In the Printed Estimates of this year, the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance never indicated that he required to raise funds by selling parastatals. I am wondering how he intends to account for the sale of parastatals that never appeared in the Printed Estimates of the year 2009/2010.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this exercise of privatization has taken place in the past. I would like the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance to clarify how
Due to the mandate you carry, Dr. Khalwale, I will give you the last chance.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the past we have known that in this country, privatization has simply been an avenue to perpetuate further corruption by this Government. I notice from the Gazette Notice that there are a number of hotels that they intend to privatize including Golf Hotel in Kakamega and Sunset Hotel in Kisumu. The Golf Hotel has now realized beyond 100 per cent bed occupancy as has Sunset Hotel, purely because of the development of Masinde Muliro University and Maseno University. Is that not another attempt to remove these public assets so that in the same manner that the Government took over the Grand Regency Hotel, again, the public can lose its interest in these hotels? Finally, how will the interests of the workers of those institutions be protected?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, to respond to Mr. Mungatana, Mr. Jirongo and Dr. Khalwale, it is quite clear, as I stated in the Ministerial Statement, that the desired objectives of the privatization of State corporations are stated in an Act that was passed by this House. As clearly stipulated under Section 18(2) of the Privatization Act, we have said that part of the reason is not a question of just selling assets but it is undertaken to improve infrastructure, delivery of services, reduce the demand on Government resources, generation of additional resources that can be used for other development programmes, the improvement of the regulation environment by getting the Government out of business and allowing business to do what it does best and the Government to regulate. It is also to improve efficiency of some of those entities as well as the economy as a whole. We are also hoping that through the same process, as has happened in a number of parastatals that have already been privatized, we will broaden the base of these enterprises and get Kenyans, through the Stock Exchange, to own shares and to participate in the family silver that the hon. Member is referring to. Mr. Speaker, Sir, with regard to the question by Mr. Kioni, since 2001 and 2008 a number of State corporations have been privatized. There is Mumias Sugar Company that generated about Kshs2.2 billion; KenGen generated about Kshs7.8 billion; Kenya-Re generated Kshs1.9 billion; Telkom Kenya generated Kshs24.3 billion and Safaricom Limited generated about Kshs50.8 billion. Funds generated from these sales have been used to fund development projects throughout the country. These companies now have a broad shareholding for Kenyans from every corner who are participating in the Stock Exchange as owners and receiving dividends from these entities. It has also given Kenyans an opportunity to also invest and participate in the profits that these companies make. In terms of performance, a number of companies have performed very well after privatization. Kenya Airways is an example. It has immensely supported the economy since privatization and is actually a case study of a successful privatization. Safaricom Limited was making profits but since privatization it has moved from 200,000 lines to over 14 million lines that we have today.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance in order to continue taking us round without telling us exactly why he requires to raise extra money and how he intends to spend it without going through the process of this House. In his Printed Estimates, he never told us that he will sell parastatals in order to fund his Budget. Where is this money going to?
Order, Mr. Jirongo! I am not so sure that, that follows from your point of order, but let me hear the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think Mr. Jirongo might have been dozing at that particular time but I did mention in the Budget Speech that we do intend to raise money through privatization.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order, the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance is responding to a point of order. Have you finished?
That is not parliamentary language!
Order, Mr. Mungatana! You are a fairly respectable Member of this House and the answer to what you are trying to do is to catch the Speakerâs eye and not to talk from your sitting position.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Out there, the public is still crying that they have not been refunded the money they invested in the Initial Public Officer (IPO) of Safaricom Limited. The Minister is today misleading this House that one of the success stories is Safaricom Limited. Even the shares of Safaricom after the privatization plummeted from Kshs5 to Kshs3. Can we allow this Minister to continue misleading the House as if the House is full of computer errors the way his office is?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I continue to maintain that Safaricom Limited was a success even though the shares have plummeted. That is not a factor that is limited to Safaricom Limited but the entire global economy and the hon. Member is fully aware of that.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise on a point of order, in respect of this Gazette Notice. It contains all the sugar factories in Nyanza. Is it in order for the hon. Minister to sit down having concluded what he was supposed to say without touching on how this is going to affect the sugar industry in Nyanza Province that has completely been taken?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I know that the Ministry of Agriculture has been working with the relevant Departmental Committee and I think the Minister for Agriculture is the most appropriate person to address that issue.
Hon. Members, that completes Ministerial Statements. I want to direct that the request for extension of time to prepare the report on Pan African Paper Mills is granted a further two weeks from the deadline.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I would like to thank you for that elaborate ruling and, particularly, on the references that you have made to the weighty constitutional issues that attach this issue on the Floor of the House.
Order! Order! Order, hon. Member for Garsen! The honourable M. Kilonzo is actually on a point of order with the permission of the Chair. I think you should allow him to finish and you may, if you catch the Speakerâs eye, have an opportunity to make your point.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the third question that has been posed to the court under the Constitution is: Whether under Section 24 of the Constitution, Parliament can validly delimit the Presidentâs powers to reappoint the Director and Assistant Directors of KACC, whom he has previously appointed in accordance with Section 8 of the Anti- Corruption and Economic Crimes Act, 2003.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, question number four is whether Paragraph 3, Sub-Paragraph 2 of the First Schedule to the Anti-corruption and Economic Crimes Act, 2003, empowers
In a nutshell, Mr. M. Kilonzo, you have asked the Chair to find whether this matter is sub judice and, therefore, to withhold any further processing?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, indeed, it is not my work to make decisions for you, but Standing Order 80 which I cited, protects the conflict between Parliament and the Judiciary since the parliamentary system was established. The principle of sub judice, as I understand it and I stand to be corrected by the Chair, is that so long as the debate or issues before the Committee or the House would go to the merits or undermine the citizensâ rights to a fair hearing, then Parliament should hold its horses and wait for the outcome of the Court case. That is what I believe and I request the honorable Chair to rule that this matter is sub judice. The questions posed are more far reaching than the questions that the Committee may be seeking.
Fair enough. I have heard you, Mr. Minister. Do you want me to be persuaded that you have satisfied the Chair that this matter is sub judice?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, indeed, I am privileged to suggest that I have made a good case.
Fair enough! Because of the importance of the matter, and it is obviously a very weighty matter as you have rightly said, I would like to listen to a few more hon. Members; both those who want to persuade me to be satisfied like you have endeavoured to do very ably and those who may want to persuade me otherwise.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am sure that the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs must have been very happy when this matter was filed yesterday evening because he armed himself with a loaded gun to come and deal with us. However, that is on a light touch. The most important point is to check whether this matter is actually sub judice within the meaning of Standing Order 80. I would like to give a small history. These are new Standing Orders which we adopted this year. When we were working on the new Standing Orders, we visited many countries and looked at many jurisdictions. I remember that the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs was a Member of this Committee. The matter that gave us sleeplessness nights was Standing Order No.80 on the sub judice rule. Why it bothered us most is that this rule had been used previously to stop Parliament from debating matters for decades.
This House tried to debate the Goldenberg issue several times, but could not because the matter was purportedly sub judice because it was in the High Court. So, the House was troubled when we were looking at this Standing Order. We made amendments to the previous position of the sub judice rule to bring us to the level of the jurisdiction on the matters now operating in Canada and Britain. One of the things that we thought would help the House to determine whether debate on a matter would prejudice a hearing
The Hon. Martha Karua.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have looked at the papers that have been laid before the House by the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs pertaining to the court case. None of the prayers relate to this House or to the work of the Committee. It is the citizens who have gone before the court, and who want the law interpreted for them. Parliament is well within its mandate to conduct its business. The principle of separation of powers demands that the three arms of the Government shall not interfere with each other. Parliament cannot stop the Executive from going on with its business. We cannot stop the Judiciary from doing its work, and
Order, hon. Members! Those of you going to contribute from now onwards, please, restrict your points of order to within not more than five minutes.
Yes, Mr. Wamalwa!
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
I have, very carefully, looked at Standing Order 80, particularly the issue of civil proceedings being active. The Standing Order presupposes that by the time the matter arises before this House, there should be pending litigation in court. Indeed, if you look at that provision, you will see that it provides that, provided that arrangements for hearing, such as setting down a case for trial, have been made---â
In this case, this matter came before this House on Thursday, last week. This case was only filed yesterday, when the House was already seized of the mater, and when the Joint Committees of the House had already deliberated upon the matter and subsequently tabled a Report before this House. Therefore, there was no pending litigation before the court at the time the matter arose before this House. Mr. Speaker, Sir, we need to be very clear, so that in the event that any litigants were seeking to abuse the process of court by tying the hands of this House, they would have attempted to shut the stable long after the horse had bolted. We need to make that very clear, so that we guard the supremacy of this House against any abuse or attempted assault on its supremacy. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Yes, Mr. Mutava Musyimi!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am happy to make a non-legal point because the points being canvassed today have been of legal nature. We are discussing a matter of corruption. Corruption has brought our people to their knees. Corruption has taken away the dignity and the pride from the faces of our people.
Order, hon. Members. Those of you who are contributing hereafter, should remember to bear in mind the rule pertaining to relevancy even if you are a lay person. The issue that I want to be assisted on is whether or not, this matter is sub judice and not the general policy on corruption. Bear that in mind.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand to argue and urge the Chair that the question as to whether the issue before the House is sub judice should also be considered in light of the fact that we have two institutions; that is, Parliament and the High Court. Clearly, none of the two institutions is superior to the other. Therefore, Parliament became seized of this matter long before the court came in. To talk about stopping Parliament from proceeding with this business is to confer superiority to one of the institutions.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the other important issue I would urge the Chair to look into is the fact that Parliament is deliberating on its legislative agenda. The process of Committee looking into this delegated legislation is in pursuit of its legislative agenda. There is no way that can cause any prejudice to the proceedings in the High Court to stop Parliament from proceeding with its legislative agenda. If this were to happen, it would set a very dangerous precedent.
I have also looked at the various past rulings. Not every litigation before the court that will suffice to deem proceedings of this House sub judice . This is one particular case where the proceedings have been instituted right in the proceedings of Parliament. If this was to be allowed, it would, therefore, become an avenue for gagging Parliament and its independence. We need to ensure that no such avenue is allowed to gag Parliament and its independence. We must safeguard against such avenues.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the question of the Director and the procedures for the appointment, these are also clearly within the province and jurisdictions of the Committees. Therefore, there cannot be any question that what is being done is outside the mandate of the parliamentary Committees and also that of Parliament.
I, therefore, urge that the matter be considered as well said by Parliament and the committee to proceed.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will not take very long because some of the points have been covered. I just want us to go back to the Standing
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to say one or two things. As we continue listening to this debate and taking part in it, I want to draw your attention to Section 17 of the Constitution. I do this because I have listened to Members of the Cabinet. It states:- â17(1) There shall be a Cabinet consisting of the President, the Vice-President and the other Ministers. (2) The function of the Cabinet shall be to aid and advise the President in the Government of Kenya. (3) The Cabinet shall be collectively responsible to the National Assembly for all things done by or under the authority of the President or the Vice-President or any other Minister in the execution of his officeâ Mr. Speaker, Sir, what we have been treated to by Members of the Cabinet is some interesting circus. They took an oath of office to protect this Constitution but what they have been doing, since a while back, is to make this country look like a failed State. Some of them are behaving like warlords, irrespective of what they are saying. It is important that we live by the law. If we are saying that we do not want impunity in this country, we cannot come here to demonstrate impunity to Kenyans. It is an embarrassment and I think it is import that they reconsider. If they think they are better off in the Back Bench, welcome!
Mr. Kioni, the matters you have raised will be considered, even as we make that ruling. Mr. Ruto!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will restrict myself to the question of sub judice. Mr. M. Kilonzo has brought several issues before this House. However, the matter I raised last week is whether the Gazette Notice, a subsidiary legislation, conformed to the mother law. I invited the Committees to have a look at it on the question of the Gazette Notice. I did not invite that we discuss an individual; the appointment or disappointment of the same. We are inviting ourselves to discuss the validity of that particular notice. Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is nothing in court that is discussing the subsidiary legislation that was published the other week. I believe Mr. M. Kilonzo quickly understands that. Further, of course, I believe that the question of sub judice is very important. I will not invite you to act with impunity and ignore it. Our friend Mr. Kajwangâ invited the Chair to use Standing Order No.80 (5), however, I do not think that that is necessary for now. It is important for us to find, within our functions, whether the publication of
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this House is at cross-roads. The ruling you will give will determine whether in future, Committees of this House will have to exist and whether they will have any functions or we will have to pack and go home. The timing of this court case, and without imputing any improper motive on any person, when Mr. Kilonzo was debating this issue last Thursday, he was very equivocal that this matter should not be taken to these Committees. Today, it is the same Minister tabling papers in front of this House that this matter is sub judice . On those two accounts, I would like to say that this is not an issue of whether this matter is sub judice or not. I would want to refer you to the Standing Orders mentioned by Mr. Kajwang that this is a moral issue. The reason this window was given in the Standing Orders is to circumvent any attempt to gag this House or any attempt by people - I would not like to use un-Parliamentary language - who would want to gag the work of this House. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not have better words to explain this but if I was to use the opposite of sub judice then I would say this is sub-Parliamentary.
Hon. Members, those of you who will now contribute hereafter, avoid being repetitive. If you repeat what has previously been said, I am afraid I will stop you at your own chagrin! Mr. Githae!
Thank you Mr. Speaker, Sir. I wish to persuade you to rule that this matter is sub judice, and that it should not be discussed by this House. To do that, I will pose several questions. If the answer to any of those questions is âyesâ, then this matter is sub judice, and it should not be discussed by this House. One thing, you should ask yourself is if discussion of this matter is likely to prejudice a fair hearing,
Mr. Speaker, Sir to me, the answer is âyesâ. If you had answered that question in the positive, we would not have needed to go further. However, I will go to the next question. Is it the role of Parliament to interpret laws?
No! It cannot be. It is the role of the Judiciary to interpret laws once a dispute has arisen. Clearly, a dispute has risen. The third question is, what are courts for? They are to resolve disputes. Clearly, this is a dispute that has arisen. The matter is already in court, and it has been set for hearing next week on Wednesday. Surely, we can wait for one week. Nothing much will
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. With all due respect, is it in order for the hon. Minister to say that if the other Ministers are not in agreement with the position of hon. M Kilonzo, they should shut up? Is that Parliamentary language?
Hon. Githae, that is not Parliamentary language. It demonstrates serious disrespect for your colleagues.
Mr. Githae, I had no intention of being disrespectful to my colleagues. Maybe, the right words would have been âto keep quietâ under the oath of secrecy.
Very good! That is polite. However, withdraw the words âshut upâ and apologise.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have withdrawn the words âshut upâ, apologised and substituted therefor, the words âkeep quietâ.
Thank you Mr. Speaker, Sir. In making a ruling in this important matter, I invite you to consider two issues. One, is the extra-judicial issues that underpin this debate that go well beyond the law and the province of the Judiciary. I have the privilege of serving in the Committee of Delegated Legislation, and while ceized of this matter, we have gone beyond law and looked at issues of integrity. We have looked at issues of Executive impunity. We have looked at issues of morality of Executive authority and exercise of Executive power. All these issues go beyond the dry legalese rules that the hon. Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs wants to bind us by. Secondly, we must remain alive to the fact that the rule of sub judice is not a cateblanche, a blank cheque or a loose canon ball that can deployed by anybody, anyhow, in any situation. This rule has limits and its limits must be understood in the context of conflict of jurisdictions. Therefore, in making a ruling, you must address your mind as to
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I come here with humility, seeking your indulgence on a matter which I think is crucial for this nation. The issue that has arisen here is whether the law has been applied correctly or incorrectly, in the appointments of the Executive Director of KACC and his two assistant directors---
That is not the issue!
Please, give me time! That is the issue! We are talking about the application of---
Order Prof. Ongeri! Please, address the Chair!
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The issue is whether the subsidiary legislation which was applied - and I heard hon. Ruto clearly--- In fact, he indicated to you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, that you cannot even attempt to enter into subjudice law at this stage but rather, you can discuss the issue as to whether the subsidiary law, as it stands today, is correctly applied or not.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, let us be honest to each other. We should be transparent. As I speak to you now, some hon. Members have already filed a petition in court today. They should tell us what they have done, rather than arguing at cross purposes. We cannot use the platform of Parliament to hijack issues that rightly belong to another organ that is best suited to interpret the statutes. This Parliament has made a law. We feel as Parliament - and I think that is why Members are excited â that, maybe, that law has been flouted. Are we the ones to interpret that law? Is there another organ to interpret that law? This House has painfully gone through the process of making laws and, at some stage, creating organs like tribunals to interpret the laws that we have made. We have just gone through a battery of those after the recent post election violence. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I plead with you that, in your ruling, we should not enter into another battlefield. Lets us not enter into a battlefield. I do not deny that Parliament is supreme, but when you have made a law, let somebody else interpret that law. We should give our judicial system the opportunity to interpret that law. There is always another
Fair enough! I will give a chance to Prof. Anyangâ-Nyâongâo, one more Member from my left, and that will be it.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to say three things. First, I do not think that the principle of collective responsibility means collective suicide. Secondly, I do not think that when we are exercising collective responsibility, we take leave of common sense. So, I feel that the Cabinet is actually adding richly to the debate in the House by not committing suicide nor taking leave of common sense. There are a few questions that we should ask ourselves. The question before us is whether the debate already started in Parliament should continue to be handled by Parliament, or whether Parliament should outsource our responsibility to the courts. I believe that in the principle of separation of powers, it would be suicidal for Parliament to outsource our responsibility to the courts. Thirdly, why are the courts in a hurry to handle a matter that is already in the House? When I was listening to hon. Githae, all the questions he asked could be summarised in one question. Why are the courts in a hurry to handle a matter that is already in Parliament and that could be concluded within a few days? The courts can take up the responsibility of interpreting the law according to those who have gone there? Fourthly, what record do our courts have in settling disputes like these? Are our courts very commendable in dealing with issues of corruption?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, are they very commendable in expediting hearings before the courts? Are we not aware that petition cases which were filed after the elections are still pending before the courts and heading towards the next elections? So, our courts do not have a very good record in the public domain in handling issues like these. Outsourcing these problems to the courts is committing collective suicide. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is, indeed, a matter of public concern. The public is looking at Parliament and wondering whether, indeed, we are going to defend the Constitution under the Standing Orders and whether we are going to defend the laws that have been established in Parliament to guide its procedure. We have already said that this matter should be handled by the appropriate Parliamentary Committees and report to the House. This is a responsibility that the House must undertake. Then after that, if the House does not exercise its responsibility, both the courts and other organs of the State are in a position to exercise the principle of separation of powers to call Parliament to account. So, I think that we are being very responsible Parliamentarians in handling this matter. I do not think that a matter of pulling Members of Parliament to outsource their responsibility to the courts would succeed under these circumstances. I have one more point. I think that the time when people had to sing like parrots behind an Executive Order is long gone. Indeed, if we try to do that, we will be reviving ghosts of the past. We are in a Coalition Government under-pinned by a National Accord. It means that consultations and agreements among the Coalition partners are extremely important in making important decisions. Unless my brain fails me, I do not remember any Cabinet meeting which has discussed this matter, so that we can take a responsible
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I listened very carefully to hon. M. Kilonzo, Senior Counsel, when he was presenting his case before this House. I want to invite Mr. Speaker to see that in the most important aspect of his presentation, he failed to discharge the evidential burden that is upon his shoulders. If you look at Standing Order 80(4), it says:- âA Member alleging that a matter is sub-judice shall provide evidence to show that paragraphs (2) and (3) are applicable.â Mr. Speaker, Sir, Paragraph 3 says that the proceedings must be active. What we expected is not just a filed chamber summons that says that we have gone to court. How many cases were filed on the same day? Going to court does not mean that, that matter is active in court. Going to court simply means that the matter has been brought before the court. We expected, by way of discharging his evidential burden today, to have brought a court order that either has given him a stay or whoever has filed a stay, or has given a date for hearing of those proceedings. There is no date that has been tabled before the House. In fact, he took a long time to read the proceedings so that he can confuse this House. But we have seen through that! There was no evidence presented before this House to show that this matter has a date in court. In fact, the first order that has been sought in the chamber summons is that it should be heard ex-parte in the first instance. They are not asking for a date at all. They have gone on to say that they want conservatory or temporary orders and so on, but they do not even ask for a date. I invite you to see that there are no active proceedings before the court. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also want to say something else. He is a senior lawyer and he knows that it is not enough to discharge evidential burden by standing at the bar and giving evidence yourself. He stood here and told us that he understands that the matter will come for hearing on 15th September. We need proper evidence. An advocate prosecuting a matter cannot be the same advocate giving evidence and saying that he has discharged the evidential evidence that is cast upon him. So, I invite the Chair to consider that as of now, we do not have any evidence of active proceedings before the court. Secondly and lastly, the person who alleges that the matter is sub judice has the burden to show that discussions of that matter before this House will prejudice fair trial. The mood of this House and that of the nation is that there will be no discussions. In fact, once an hon. Member moves the Motion and it is seconded, we will vote on it. There will not be any debate. So, it is already decided. So, the question of saying that we will have discussions--- There will be no discussions.
Order, Mr. Mungatana! You cannot validly say that this matter is already decided without breaching our Standing Orders, particularly the one on anticipating debate. So, I am afraid, you must withdraw that part.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am guided by your ruling. I would like to say that in deciding this matter, because the rules allow you to exercise Sub-Rule 1 (precedence and the mood of the nation), I beg that you find that this House has not been supplied with any evidence to show that these matters are active before the court. I will not repeat all the other arguments that have been placed before you.
Finally, Mr. Attorney-General, you have caught my eye!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this debate. This is because it is important that the debate appears balanced. Many Members from that side have spoken and I think you should also hear this side.
The side which says that the matter is sub
. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am a party to the case which is before---
Order, hon. Attorney-General! Are you saying that what Prof. Ongeri, Mr. M. Kilonzo, Mr. Githae and a few others said was in vain and it amounted to nothing?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it was not in vain, but four times the number that you have just mentioned spoke. So, it is good that I also add a voice to support them. They never spoke in vain.
Order, Mr. Attorney-General! You must take this properly. If you say that and you want it to remain in the record of the House, then it will amount to an attitude that is condescending.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand guided by your comments.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am party to this case, which has been filed before the court and is active before the court. The type of evidence envisaged in these Standing Orders, evidence can be both oral or written. If you read the Evidence Act, in fact, most of the evidence is normally oral and then supported by documents where necessary. Therefore, to the extent that the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs, informed this House that the case came up for hearing today in court and that it is coming up for hearing on 15th, to me, that shows that the matter is active. I am also aware that another case has been filed this afternoon, again on the same matter. Therefore, there is no doubt that there is a case in court touching on matters which is a subject matter of what has been discussed in this House. Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is not true, as somebody tried to say, that those who went to court must have been instructed to do so. Those who have gone to court have done so to assert what is the common view, as the Ms. Karua has stated, that people are already aware that the opinion of this House is to assert what Mr. Mungatana has said that there is no need for debate and we shall just pass it. This is the case and yet there has to be some debate, because this House has to uphold democracy. We must discuss these issues and there should never be any presumption that anything that comes here there will be no need for discussion because we have already decided and we shall enact it. I also want to concede that it is not in every case which is sub judice that will stop this House from proceeding to debate a matter of national importance. It is not automatic. The issue is complex and it requires a balance of the roles played by the various organs of Government, which should not be seen to be interfering with each other, but working harmoniously to ensure that this country is truly a country which is based on constitutionalism. It is a very delicate balancing act that has to be done. That is
Fair enough, Mr. Attorney-General. You have said your piece.
Hon. Members, I will make a communication on this matter as to whether or not the matter pertaining to the re-appointment of the Director of the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC) is sub judice and that therefore, the Report of the Committee should not be debated by this House on Thursday at 2.30 p.m.
Order, hon. Members! Those of you who are withdrawing, please, do so slowly and quietly and please note that this is the beginning of tangible House business and we want you to be here to participate in this business.
Hon. Members, this is a continuation. Mr. Kioni was on the Floor and he still had a few minutes.
If he is not here, then hon. Members, it is now time to propose the Question.
Anybody wishing to debate?
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I want to commend the Committee for undertaking this very difficult job. At the same time, I want to point out that the Committee did not fully utilise their powers under the Standing Orders. Under Standing Order No.173, in their deliberations, Departmental Committees enjoy and exercise all the powers and privileges of Parliament, including the summoning of witnesses, receiving evidence and the request for and receipt of papers and documents from the Government and the public. The question that was referred to this Committee was the number of the dead in Kirinyaga following this insecurity early this year. Prior to this matter being referred to the Committee, I had laid on the Table of this House, an authenticated paper indicating 43 persons had been murdered, 25 of them were hacked with pangas and 18 were hanged. I am very disappointed that the Committee concluded without summoning the doctor in charge of Kerugoya District Hospital or even the mortuary attendant. I clearly
Order, hon. Members! If you are consulting, please, do so in low tones.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, it is quite clear that the initial reaction of the residents was spontaneous but thereafter with this admission by the District Security Intelligence Committee, they mobilised the residents. It clearly shows that all the murders that happened after the initial spate of violence were actually being encouraged by the State security agencies instead of them investigating, taking charge of the situation and ensuring that there is security for all, they mobilised the residents to rise against one another. As a result, even if we were to take only the numbers provided by the Committee which they got from the police, who are the culprits in this case, killing of 26 people, then you add the 29 massacred at Gathaithi, then you add one who was massacred by the vigilantes the next morning, it totals to 56 as opposed to the 73 that I gave. The death of 56 Kenyans is not a trivial matter. The burning of 54 houses, which is the number the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security gave, it is a shame upon our law enforcement agencies. Before the problem could escalate to 54 houses being burnt and 56 people dead, were the police asleep? I still believe that if the matter had not been raised in this House, the killings would be going on unabated. I still believe that there is unwillingness on the part of the police and the Government to be honest about the actual number of people dead. They know the actual number but they try to say that it is from other causes, although they know that it is violent-related to this incident. We have since had a few incidences of people cut with pangas related to the same violence. However, I must admit the security and normalcy is slowing returning. While supporting the adoption of this Report, I would urge the Minister to take this report very seriously and to ensure that they restore security, not only in Kirinyanga, but also elsewhere in the Republic. It is idle for the Government to accuse Members of Parliament from Central Province of not condemning illegal gangs.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. It appears that there is no quorum.
Hon. Members, it looks there is no quorum. So, let the quorum bell be rung.
Hon. Members, there being no quorum, it is now time for the interruption of business. The House is, therefore, adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, 9th September, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.
The House rose at 6.12 p.m.