Hon. Members, I wish to introduce to you and welcome this afternoon a delegation from Mpumalanga Provincial Legislature in South Africa, who are seated at the Speaker’s Row. They are as follows:- 1. Hon. Pretty Jabhile Ngubeni, MP, Chairperson and Leader of Delegation; 2. Hon. Refilwe Mtshweni, MP; 3. Hon. Blessing Shongwe, MP; 4. Hon. Caroline Refilwe Mahlobogoane, MP; 5. Hon. Lazarus Thabelang Maabane, MP; 6. Hon. Patricia Ngobeni, MP; 7. Hon. Celine Nomakhosi Mamabolo, MP; 8. Hon. Velly Makasana Manzini, MP; and, 9. Ms. Eggy Thabane – Committee Co-ordinator. They are Members of the South African Parliamentary Committee on Improvement of Quality and Status of Women, Youth, Children and People with Disabilities. On behalf of the House and on my own behalf, I wish the delegation a fruitful and happy stay in Kenya. Thank you.

to ask the Minister for Information and

Communications:-

(a) Could the Minister update the House on the status of the Information

Communication and Technology Project for each constituency planned to be

funded through the Economic Stimulus Package?

(b) Could the Minister confirm whether he will supply desktop computers

to each constituency under the same project in view of exorbitant proposal of the

IT Buses of Kshs.7million, which was rejected by the House?

Is Mr. Shakeel not here? We will extend some indulgence to the hon. Member and re-visit that Question a little later.

Let us proceed to the next Question, by the Member of Parliament for Emuhaya!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Fisheries Development the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Could the Minister inform the House the cause of recent death of fish in Lake Naivasha and reveal the scope of effects on other aquatic life in the lake? (b) Could the Minister also indicate the potential toxic levels of all chemicals used, give trends in the levels of lake pollution or eutrophication in the last ten years and reveal the expected long-term impact on aquatic life? (c) What mitigation measures is the Minister taking to save the fish and other aquatic life in the lake?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to bring to your attention the fact that I have not received any written answer despite the fact that we gave him extra time to bring a comprehensive answer.

Yes, I recollect that fact.

Yes, Minister for Fisheries Development! Is he not here? Similarly, I will revisit the Question a little later.

Next Question, Member of Parliament for Keiyo North!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Could the Minister explain the circumstances surrounding the recent interception of assorted firearms in Narok town, the types and quantities, the source and the intended destination of the firearms?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.

(a) On 7th December, 2009, the police, acting on a tip off, intercepted a Mr. Munir Haroun Ismail and his wife, Nahid Tabaasam Sumar, at Embakasi Village. Upon search, he was found in possession of a pistol make SIG 9mm, Serial No.U746797, and an assortment of ammunition. On further search of his godown situated along Nanyuki Road in Industrial Area, the following items were found: Three lorry batteries, 13 military green steel jericans, six military fatigue pangas, five pairs of military boots and assorted motor vehicle parts. At his Parklands home, a pistol, make SIG 9 mm, Serial No.0735732, and 5,000 rounds of ammunition and pair of military uniform were also recovered. The suspect led the police to his Parklands and Narok residences where the following items were also recovered: Over 40,000 rounds of assorted ammunition; shotgun Serial No.A0S2195; three 08 rifle, Serial No.A17444; 3006 rifle, Serial No.40909; four roles of aphlanet cloth, ten military canvas spares, military uniform, assorted motor vehicle spare parts, 11 lorry tyres, 14 motor vehicle logbooks, and cash money to the tune of Kshs429, 000. Mr. Speaker, Sir, all the guns are licensed to the holder, Munir Haroun Ismail vide Civilian Firearms Bureau Licence No.3469. The ammunition was not licensed, and the businessman was charged before Nairobi Chief Magistrate vide CCN.2217/2009, along with three others for possession of unlicensed ammunition. On 1st February, 2010, further information was received that the businessman had more ammunition in his garage. Police officers visited the garage and recovered further 31,211 assorted ammunition. Preliminary investigations indicated that part of the ammunition was from the Administration Police Training College, and the British Military Training Base at Nanyuki. The intended destination is still under investigation (b) The identities of persons responsible for procuring, transporting and storage of these arms are Munir Haroun Ismail, Nahid Tabaasam Sumar, Joseph Maritim, John Wandetu Kiragu and Dominic Abisan Mafuni. The intended user of the firearm is still under investigation. (c) There are no threats or concerns posed to national security as the ammunition are in the hands of the police and the suspects were arrested and arraigned in court vide Police Case File No.152/5AD/09 and Court File No.2217/09. Thank you.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister has said that there is no threat to national security yet these are huge quantities of firearms, including military hardware materials. Could he confirm or qualify his statement that there are no threats? If not, is this suspect licensed to handle this ammunition? Is he a firearms dealer or what is he?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I mentioned in my answer that this man called “Munir” is not licensed to have ammunition. We confiscated all the ammunition he had including those found in the garage. We have charged him. We are also investigating this

Could you table the charge sheet?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to table the charge sheet for all the cases.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister confirm that this is not the first time that the same trader has been found holding ammunition illegally? What action was taken against him last time he was caught with a cache of arms?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is a very serious offence. That is why the Government had to arrest all those who were involved. As far as I am concerned, this is the first time I have heard what the hon. Member has raised. The only thing is that we did not inspect what he had in his garage or residences. However, the detectives got assortment of ammunition when they went to his garage and other residence. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to assure Kenyans that the police will arrest, at any time, anybody found with ammunition or a firearm without a licence. I have indicated in this House that we will conduct the disarmament exercise in areas where people hold illegal guns because we want to make sure that Kenya is a safe country.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister tell us what the National Security Intelligence Service (NSIS) was doing all this time to the extent that those arms were not discovered in good time?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, first of all of I want to commend the NSIS. This is because they are the people who made us find this fellow. The officers in the NSIS are doing a good job and I encourage them to continue with that good work.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Assistant Minister in order to mislead this House? When these arms were discovered, the same Assistant Minister issued a Statement thanking the public for having tipped the police and now he is telling us it was the NSIS.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, what my friend the hon. Member does not know is that the NSIS are policemen. The public gave a tip to one of the NSIS members and we recovered these guns. In any case, all of us should congratulate them for the work they have done.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Assistant Minister to mislead this House that the NSIS are also policemen? Does he understand his docket? Does he know the functions of these two units?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, these are security agents. I understand this docket very well. I am saying that we should congratulate them because they made us find this fellow hiding the assorted ammunition at the right time.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is not the first time that this issue is coming before this House. The first time we brought up this issue, the Minister assured Kenyans that investigations would be carried out immediately. He promised this House

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I indicated in my first remarks that the case is in court. I have some information, which I would not share with you now because the case is in court. However, after the ruling, I will share with my colleagues what has been happening within Narok.

Is the Member for Central Imenti satisfied?

No, Mr. Speaker, Sir. It was just last week I raised this issue with the Minister. My interest at that time was that since the ammunition came from a Government owned factory and was manufactured by members of the Kenya Armed Forces, what steps have they taken to ensure that security at the military barracks in Eldoret where the bullets and ammunition came from is changed and protected from encroachment from outsiders?

On a point of information, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Has the Assistant Minister accepted that point of information?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, he has accepted.

Order, the Member for Central Imenti!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, he is informing me and yet I do not want him to inform me.

Order! As I heard it, the Minister wants to inform the Assistant Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security. Mr. Minister, proceed!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, although this ammunition is manufactured at Eldoret, the Army sells it to all Government and international institutions. Therefore, there is no reason that the officers there should be removed.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Order, the Member for Central Imenti! Mr. Assistant Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security, have you found that information useful? Can you proceed to answer the question by the Member for Central Imenti?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to say that the procedures of acquiring ammunition from the Eldoret factory have been enhanced. As I speak, it is not easy for every Tom, Dick and Harry to have any ammunition in his or her possession. We have also enhanced security within the training centre in Nanyuki. That is where we had a loophole and ammunition was being channeled through there. We are quite happy with what is happening now. We have beefed up security and nobody will have access to the ammunition, as I speak here.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I asked him what measures he has taken but instead of answering he is saying there has been “enhancement”. What form of enhancement and what steps has he taken against the officers in Eldoret who were responsible for sending the ammunition out of the barracks?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, you will agree with me that the Armed Forces is not within my docket. I will ask the Minister concerned to answer that. However, he has also given information with regard to the question the hon. Member, who is a friend of mine, has asked.

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the hon. Ministers, the Minister of State for Defence Mr. Haji and the Assistant Minister, Ministry of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security, Mr. Ojode, to mislead the House by saying that it is the Army that manufactures and sells ammunition, when in actual fact it is the Kenya Ordnance Factory, which is a parastatal that manufactures the arms? Why can they not mention that clearly?

Order Minister! You are pursuing the same matter from the same angle?

Okay proceed.

In view of the fact that the Minister of State for Defence has given information, would we be in order to interrogate that information, because the Question from Mr. Imanyara arises from the information which the Minister has given to the Assistant Minister? Would we be allowed to interrogate it?

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Since the Assistant Minister, Ministry of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security, admits that the proper province for this Question is the Defence Department, would it be in order that I request you to direct that this Question be deferred until tomorrow, or another day, so that Mr. Haji can come to this House and answer the question properly, and we seek clarification properly?

Order, hon. Members! The Assistant Minister, Ministry of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security, had actually handled his part fairly ably; so, in so far as this Question is concerned, the Question asked, has adequately been dealt with by the Assistant Minister, Ministry of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security. However, if there are aspects of the Question which are different and need to be addressed, then the Member for Central Imenti, or for that matter, even the hon. Member for Mutito can bring those Questions and I will order that they be placed on the Order Paper.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to seek directives from you because from time to time Ministers have been coming in aid of others to offer information. Where a Minister has volunteered to offer information, would we, as MPs be given the right to interrogate a Minister who has brought that information. The Minister of State for Defence has just volunteered to answer a Question which was not on the Floor of the House for him to answer?

Yes, you will be allowed to interrogate a Minister where he conducts himself in that manner, but where it is restricted to a matter of information, then

In his answer, the Minister has indicated that part of the ammunition was from the Administration Police Training College and the British Military Training College at Nanyuki. This goes to show that there are serious lapses within the various security agencies. It goes to confirm that the sources of the arms which are in pastoral areas, and are used by cattle rustlers and the gangs who steal in our cities are our security forces. What action is the Minister going to take to ensure that arms within the security forces are securely kept to prevent any theft of them, or sale of them to criminals and other members public?

Anybody found with any ammunition, or firearm, without a licence will be arrested on the spot. The other bit is that disarmament will continue within the Upper Eastern, the Rift Valley and Nairobi. There is no cause for alarm, and I want to assure my colleagues that we are doing all that we can to bring back normalcy and sanity. I will also plead with my colleagues not to politicise it; I need their assistance and their support. Arms and ammunition in the hands of thugs must be mopped up, otherwise Kenya is safe and you are free to move to wherever you want.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Assistant Minister to avoid my question? I asked him what he is doing to ensure that there are no lapses within the security forces, which enable members of the public to access arms.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I said that first of all we have enhanced security within those areas where there were possibilities of getting arms or ammunition. I also mentioned that all those who were involved in this illicit sale or acquiring of any ammunition were all arrested, and we are continuing to arrest those who have not been arrested.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance the following Question by Private Notice. Could the Minister explain the circumstances under which the collapsed Invesco Assurance Company (Under Receivership) was licensed to operate before paying the Kshs600 million owed to claimants?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. I would like to make a correction and state that Invesco Assurance Company Limited, was not placed under receivership, as stated by the hon. Member, but under statutory management. A statutory manager is under no obligation to settle claims owed by the insurer, but he is required to prepare and submit to the Insurance Regulatory Authority (IRA) a report on the financial position and management of the insurer with recommendations as to whether the insurer is capable of being revived, or should be placed under receivership or liquidation. The appointed Statutory Manager,

In that case Mr. Speaker, Sir, can the Assistant Minister tell this House when the people owed over Kshs600 will be paid?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, under the restructured arrangement, the Matatu Owners Association (MOA), who have an investment arm, have already bought 80 per cent of the Invesco Assurance Company Limited, and they have put advertisements in newspapers asking those who have claims to submit their applications, so that they can process the claims. So, far 1,500 members have made their claims, which are being processed and the total amount involved so far in the claims is Kshs300 million.

Thank you Mr. Speaker, Sir. I would want the Assistant Minister to state whether he is aware that there are many insurance firms in this country that are not following the package of the Finance Bill of December, 2009 where we provided that any insurer who does not meet its obligations within 60 days after filing of a claim is supposed to give reasons and just in case the Director or the CEO of IRA gives extension of time for payment of that claim and the same is delayed and paid after 30 days, then the company is deemed to be insolvent or unable to pay the claim. I want him to tell the House what he is doing to make sure that these insurers that have so many pending claims that have not been paid within the provided period, comply.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Insurance Regulatory Authority (IRA) was specifically established to deal with cases of non-compliant insurance companies. For this particular one, a lot has been done. Several measures have been taken. They have demanded for more capitalization. They have decided that the shareholders should not be directly involved in the management of the company. Several other measures have been taken to ensure that members of the public are not cheated. If there are any specific cases of errant insurance companies, we are ready to recommend to the IRA to take the necessary measures and deal with them as per their mandate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister tell this House what he will do with insurance companies which fleece Kenyans, hide under bankruptcy; only to venture into other businesses? For example, we know a lot about the Invesco Company. It came, conned people and started doing another business. What is the Assistant Minister doing to make sure that Kenyans are not fleeced?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have stated that for any insurance company to come up, it has to have sufficient capitalization. That particular insurance business is not easy because it involves matatus . There are only three insurance companies that deal with

in this country. That is because of the type of risk involved in that particular investment. This Parliament, in its wisdom, established IRA in order to deal with those insurance companies which are likely to fleece members of the public out of their ignorance.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank the Assistant Minister and, more so, IRA for a job well done. The Chief Executive Officer has been able to structure the industry in such a way that firms are now able to offer better service. However, my fear is: Since that is a service industry, what is he doing to protect local investors from foreign interference?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, when you talk about protection against risk and you only restrict that business to locals, you must know that, that is a very risky business and,

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am not really satisfied because the Assistant Minister is avoiding to answer a very pertinent question. I said that we came up with a rule that insurance companies must pay claims within a certain specified period. Kenyans are being fleeced every day because the insurance companies are collecting premiums and they are not paying claims. Those claims fall due within the period by which they are supposed to be paid and yet, they are not paid. What is he going to do to make sure that those claimants are paid?

Mr. Assistant Minister, what are you doing to ensure compliance?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am saying that if there are any specific non- compliance cases, let him draw our attention to them and we shall take the necessary action.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Every hon. Member here is sneezing! There is foreign gas here!

Order, hon. Members! I know that our resistance levels are different but hon. Members are put on notice---

Hon. Members are put on notice that there is teargas which has been discharged in the environs of Parliament. This is as a result of activists wanting to push hon. Members to fast-track the debate on the Constitution. That is what I have been told. So, hon. Members will have to tolerate this and when we get to a level where we cannot withstand it anymore, then we may have to adjourn. But for the time being, we will take the last question from Mr. C. Kilonzo!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, my interest in this matter - which the Assistant Minister did not specifically state - is that, that insurance company was put under statutory management purely because it could not meet the claims totaling to Kshs600 million. The new owners have only pumped in Kshs200 million. My question is very simple: What assurance is there that Invesco will be able to pay the previous claims amounting to Kshs600 million? They might as well accumulate more!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is the reason why the licence which has been given to that company is conditional. It is conditional on several performance measures which they must fulfill in order to get a full licence. If they are not able to pay as per the agreement with our IRA, then we might not---

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. He has said that the agreement has certain conditions and that is what I am asking. Could he table or bring all those conditions here?

Mr. Assistant Minister, are you able to table the document with conditions?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the report by the statutory manager which recommended that, that company be revived and be restructured is the only document which is there. Others are just correspondence which we had with those people and the interviews which we held and gave them certain conditions which they must fulfill before they can be allowed to get a full licence. So, the only document which we can table is the report by the statutory manager which gave recommendations for that company to be restructured and not liquidated.

Mr. Assistant Minister, are the conditions captured in the report? Are the conditions that the hon. Member is alluding to captured in the report which you can table?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, those conditions are there.

Please table it!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not have it here with me!

Can you table it tomorrow?

Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The insurance industry plays a key role in the economy of this country. We also know that the matatu industry is a very important sector in our economy. I know that the reason why Invesco Assurance Company is being revived is not what the Assistant Minister is telling Parliament. After 2003, with the adoption of the Michuki rules---

Order, Mr. Keynan! You know that you have stood up on a point of order?

That is what I am coming to. Is it in order for the Assistant Minister to mislead the House when he knows very well that the very reason why the Government revived Invesco Assurance Company is that no other underwriter was willing to accept PSV insurance? All the other underwriters were operating at a loss and the Government had to persuade the Matatu Owners Association and the Matatu Welfare Association to form an insurance company to manage PSV. Is the Assistant Minister in order to mislead the House?

Order! Mr. Assistant Minister, I think you should be able to deal with that fairly easily from the answers that you gave previously without going into a story.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I said, this is a very risky industry and there are only two other insurance companies which are ready to deal with this. That is why one of the recommendations was to revive it because it is a very vital sector.

Next Question.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Roads the following Question by Private Notice.

What immediate action is the Minister taking to repair the bridge at Seiya River between Kisima Trading Centre and Lekuru Market in Samburu Central District, which has been damaged due to the on-going heavy rains, before it completely collapses?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. The bridge in question is actually a drift across River Seiya. I have set aside Kshs4.5 million which has been availed to the Regional Manager of the Kenya Highways Authority, South Rift Region, for the repair of the drift. The tunneling process has already commenced and the works are expected to begin in early April, 2010.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I must thank the Assistant Minister for the prompt action he has taken. Now that he has given the works to be undertaken by the Regional Manager, South Rift, could he tell the House which districts form South Rift region will benefit to ensure that leaders from the larger Samburu will not be left out in the tendering process?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was answering this Question in respect of the area that the MP asked. In view of the ongoings on the constitutional review process, may I request that the hon. Member leaves it as such.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Ministry of Roads knew that there was a lot of focus on El Nino rains. I am sure in our country there are so many bridges that are destabilized and many culverts washed away because of El Nino rains. Did the Ministry prepare for this eventuality this time and how much money do they have to cater for this? Are there any emergency funds set aside for such occasions?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, although this is a different question, we had set aside Kshs500 million for purposes of emergencies, but the extent of the construction of our road network has been far much in excess of that. We have requested the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Ministry for Finance to avail Kshs2.2 billion for the purposes of the repair. We have got an undertaking and an agreement to our request by the Prime Minister. I believe the Prime Minister is in the process of trying to see that we get this money for that purpose.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, in January we had floods in Mogotio and Rongai and two bridges were swept away. These were very important bridges. We have since requested for the Ministry to assist to repair those bridges. How long will it take the Assistant Minister to respond to this?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, amongst the emergency projects that I have on my list are those two projects. I will endeavour to repair them as soon as finances are available. I think the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Ministry of Finance has listened to our case. They will respond.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, given that this is the road that links Samburu Central and Samburu East, could the Assistant Minister tell the House how long the project will take to ensure that the traders who rely on this road for transportation of goods and services will not be inconvenienced for long? How long will the project take to reach completion?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, since the bids for the same projects are supposed to be opened on 22nd April, I will seek the indulgence of the hon. Member that I do not talk about it this time because it is in the process of bidding.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I think the Assistant Minister is being unfair to the people who are served by that road. According to the expectations and planning of that Ministry, how long did they expect the works to take so that the people who rely on that road for transportation of goods and services will not be inconvenienced? That is what I am asking! He should be able to give an estimate.

Order, Mr. Assistant Minister! That is a genuine concern. Could you give us an estimate in terms of time?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, as soon as possible.

asked the Minister for Forestry and Wildlife:- (a) what plans he has to compensate Mr. Joram Ochenga, who was attacked and seriously injured by a lion at Maragoli Hills on 3rd September, 2002; and, (b) what measures he will take to protect the residents of the area from such attacks in future.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, before I respond to this Question, let me say that last week on Tuesday you had issued a directive that we will not transact business here because there was no Minister from this Ministry. I want to explain by giving two reasons.

One, I had expected my colleague, the Cabinet Minister to be here to respond to this Question but unfortunately, he was not able to make it. Secondly, when I made efforts to get sufficient information to answer this Question and the supplementary questions that would have arisen, that directive was ignored by the senior technocrats in the Ministry. Following several directives, I have got the information I need to respond to this Question. I can only plead with you to allow us to proceed since in the past we have not failed to represent the Ministry and to respond to the Questions that hon. Members have asked my Ministry.

Mr. Assistant Minister, you may resume your seat for a minute. The explanation given by the Assistant Minister is obviously inadequate but since this Assistant Minister has normally been very dutiful - I know that he has always been in the House to answer Questions and it appears there are administrative lapses in your Ministry. So, we will not penalize you for those lapses, but maybe the Head of the Civil Service will take care to ensure that there are no such lapses. So, you may proceed.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are trying to address that through the respective offices to try and sort this so that it does not happen again.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Assistant Minister for the answer. He has indicated that the recommendation for the claim has been received by the Ministry. Could he give an indication specifically when this claim will be paid to the complainant?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, as you will notice from previous presentations in this House, cases of human/wildlife conflict has increased, which we had not anticipated. For instance, during this financial year, we have received about 1,500 cases as opposed to 763 cases in the last financial year. We have asked the Treasury to give us the finances to address this particular claim alongside 399 others. As soon as we get the finances, we will pay the compensation.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, Maragoli Forest was vandalized, but we intend to have it back in place. Could the Assistant Minister consider setting up an office to deal with these kinds of situations in Vihiga other than us going to Kakamega, which is a bit far from us?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is a matter that we can consider. I would like to ask the hon. Member that we meet outside the House and look at the details of that proposal.

asked the Minister of State for Immigration and Registration of Persons:- (a) whether he could provide the staffing level at the Department of Registration of Persons in North Eastern Province, the months worked in 2009 and the amount of money they were paid; (b) whether he could give the names and number of applicants for national identity cards in the province in the last one year, indicating how many were issued with the document; and, (c) whether he could also explain the requirements for vetting procedures in North Eastern and clarify whether the procedure applies nationwide.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a)The staffing levels of the Department of Registration of Persons in North Eastern Province are 106 officers. In 2009, the officers worked for 12 months less their leave days. The total gross salary paid to these officers in 2009 was Kshs24 million. (b) The number of applicants received from North Eastern between 1st January, 2009 and 10th March, 2010, was 12,236. Out of these applicants, 9,497 were issued with identity cards and 1,641 are in progress while the remaining 1,098 applications were rejected on either of the following grounds:- (i) Some applicants had already registered as refugees and were in our database, or (ii) Some applicants had already been issued with national identity cards, but were trying to re-apply as different persons. (c) Vetting is carried out in all designated border districts. The requirements for vetting procedures are as follows:- (i) The applicant must appear in person before the vetting committee.

(ii) The applicant must produce proof of citizenship and age;

(iii) The vetting process should be done in one sitting; (iv) The applicant must have been born in the district where vetting is taking place; or the applicant hails from a border district and is applying elsewhere. (v)The applicant must be identified as a Kenyan by at least one of the elders who must vouch this by filing or appending his left thumb print on the form and he will include his name and identity card on the registration form.

(vi) Vetting proceedings are captured in form of minutes which must accompany the application from of the applicant to the headquarters for processing.

These requirements apply to all designated border districts in the country and some urban areas like Nairobi, Mombasa and Thika.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. It is unfortunate that we get misleading information from the Minister. The issuance of the national identity cards in North Eastern Province was suspended. How many months was this exercise suspended? Why and who suspended it? He did not answer those questions. In part “b” of my Question---

Order, Mrs. Noor! Ask the question that you want the Minister to answer!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the whole Question was not answered satisfactorily and that is why I want further elaboration. I want the Minister to understand because this is a very sensitive issue. We are talking about the national identity cards. This is a constitutional right that the people of North Eastern are being denied. Please, I want him to explain because he did not answer that part of the question.

Order! Hon. Noor, please, ask a question that has not been answered! Just one question!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Minister did not answer part “b” of my Question.

Could you, please, ask the question again and I will compel the Minister to answer it?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like the Minister to table the names of the applicants who were issued with identity cards from each location in North Eastern Province, so that we can know them.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to apologise that I did not give the names from each location. However, the names are here. We have 9,497 names of those who were issued with identity cards. You can go through the gymnastics of checking. Below the list, there are the 1,098 applications that were rejected. I think I have now answered that question.

Hon. Noor, are you able to go through those names and interrogate the Minister further or you want more time?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to have more time. The people who were issued with identity cards are 9,497. If you divide that by 12 districts and then by 12 locations, you will realize that it is only 65 people who were issued with identity cards per month. According to the figures that the Minister has just given us, if you analyse them, you will realize that it is only two people who were issued with identity cards per day. So, I need more time to go through this list.

Order! Order, hon. Members! The concern by the hon. Member is genuine and we want to give her a fair chance to interrogate the Minister fully on the answers that he has provided. So, Mr. Minister, I want to defer this Question to tomorrow afternoon. Will you be available tomorrow afternoon?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I should be available tomorrow afternoon, only that we deal with applications and I have said that they were 12,000---

Order, Minister! Prepare to respond to all supplementary questions including those by the Member and any other hon. Members who may come to her aid.

The Question is deferred to tomorrow afternoon.

asked the Minister of State for Special Programmes:- (a) whether she could explain the reasons that led to the suspension by the World Bank funding for Western Kenya Community-driven Development and Flood Mitigation (WKCDD&FM) Project; and, (b) what steps the Government is taking to have the project back on track, and when the project is expected to restart.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) The suspension by the World Bank funding for WKCDD&FM Project was a result of the draft report of an in-depth audit carried out by the internal audit department of the

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, one of the actual reasons that led to the problems being experienced in this project is very obvious inherent and, indeed, incurable defects in the structural design and implementation of this project, which went to such critical elements like accountability mechanisms within this project. What is the Minister or Government doing to ensure that when this project takes off in the next phase, these defects will be cured, so that we forestall a similar scenario occurring?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, yes, we have noticed that there are quite a number of loopholes in the project and that is why we were working on it with the World Bank to make sure that those loopholes are not used again to derail the project. The project has done very well in western Kenya and the worst thing that would happen is for us to stop it. We think it can move on to change the lives of the people of western

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is one of the largest projects ever implemented in western Kenya by the World Bank to the tune of over Kshs6 billion. Only Kshs600 million had been disbursed that far. By the time of the suspension of this programme, the World Bank was actually happy with the performance of the programme.

I wish to table here a letter from the World Bank showing that it was actually entirely satisfied with the performance of the programme. The suspension of this programme was by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Ministry of Finance unilaterally. Could the Minister now confirm that actually it is a witchhunt with serious ethnic overtones in the sense that somebody is displeased by the fact that this programme employs Luos and Luhyas as per the terms of reference of this programme?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as for the ethnic intonations in it, I beg to differ with my colleague. The truth is that there are some issues in this project. Unfortunately, action was taken before the validation was done. That was basically where the problem was, but it has nothing to do with the ethnic communities or the people who work in this project. This project has been tailor-made to help the people of western Kenya; Siaya and Bondo. It does not cover the whole of Nyanza, but it is intended to help the people improve on their basic livelihoods. I believe that the project was already achieving the goals it was meant for. So, the auditors carried out a normal audit and, yes, there were question marks which were there. I believe that the action which we are taking is something we should be able to learn from and cover the loopholes which are there.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I had wanted the Minister to confirm whether this project was suspended by the World Bank or the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Ministry of Finance.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the project was suspended after consultations between the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Ministry of Finance, World Bank and the Ministry of State for Special Programmes.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as the Minister in charge of the implementing Ministry, what is the Minister doing to ensure that the consultations between the World Bank and the Ministry of Finance are done fast enough, so that the project can come back on course?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, consultation have been going on even as late as last week. We had a session with the World Bank officials. We have agreed that we need to move on now to the Ministry of Finance with the World Bank people so that we can finalise. Although the report is already in the head office, we have not had a feedback from the head office of the World Bank. The World Bank Country Director is willing to discuss and see how we can move on and push for faster resolution where this issue is concerned.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this project is critical to the welfare of the western region, including my people in Budalangi. From the answer given by the Minister, this project was stopped on 23rd September last year. It is now exactly six months ago.

The reasons that she has given here for the suspension of this project are at best pariah and completely not of a character that would have warranted a project of this magnitude to be stopped. It is exactly six months of consultations. Six months of stalled projects where money is being wasted, especially for the projects that had already started. When she says that the decision on restarting this project belongs to the Ministry of Finance and the World Bank, yet she is the Minister in charge of the implementing Ministry, she must give a firm commitment as to when we shall expect this project to restart without any prevarication or circumlocution.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do understand the frustrations of the Member of Parliament. I am just as frustrated as he is, because financial matters are dealt with by the Ministry of Finance and the donor. When it comes to those particular issues, I can only put in a word because I want my project to resume and go on to benefit the people of western Kenya.

Order! Order! Member for Naivasha, Question No.126.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Order! Order! Mr. John Mututho!

asked the Minister for Industrialization:- (a) what informed the decision by the Kenya Bureau of Standards to increase the threshold of permissible fluoride level in mineral water from 1.5ppm to 4.0ppm against WHO recommendations that mineral water shall not exceed 1.5ppm; (b) if he could list the mineral water products with fluoride contents exceeding WHO levels indicating the respective manufacturers and dates of licensing as well as those below the WHO standards of 1.5ppm; (c) if he could confirm that all mineral water in the market in the country appears to have the same PH and/or whether this PH levels are falsified; and, (d) when the Ministry will impose the warning prescribed by WHO on all mineral water fluoride levels exceeding 1.5ppm.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. With all due respect to the Chair, the Question on the World Bank projects touches on the lives of the whole western Kenya and Nyanza. We feel that we have not been given time to ventilate.

Order! You know what to do if you are not satisfied with an answer given by the Minister. The rules are very clear you can come back and you know the procedures.

Go on, Mr. Minister!

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Continue, Mr. Minister!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) The decision to increase the threshold of permissible fluoride level for mineral water from 1.5ppm to 4.0ppm was based on WHO guidelines which do not indicate the maximum levels of fluoride for mineral water directly obtained from natural or drilled sources from underground water bearing strata, and without being subjected to any treatment other than filtration and decantation process. The CODEX standard, CS 108:1981 (amended in 2001) for Natural Mineral Waters, provides a threshold of 2mg/l fluoride for purposes of labeling and does not indicate the maximum limit of fluoride in water. The maximum level of 4.0mg/l was, therefore, adopted based on the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Standards for water and the mean value of fluoride detected in mineral waters sampled within Kenya. (b) KEBS has, so far, certified 73 firms as per attached list, and issued them with permits to apply the standard mark on their mineral water products. Only two firms out of the 73 exceed the WHO standards of 1.5ppm with levels of 1.8ppm. (c) Laboratory tests conducted during the initial testing of water, therefore, granting of the permits, and subsequent market surveillance are sufficient confirmation that the waters sampled are within acceptable PH range for mineral water (PH 6.5 - 8.5) and carbonated water (PH 4.0). (d) The CODEX standards requires all mineral water manufacturers to place a warning on all their packaged products with a declaration that the product is not suitable for infants and children under the age of seven years when packaging mineral water which exceeds the threshold of 1.5ppm. Kenya Bureau of Standards ensures that this is adhered to when carrying out initial tests on water and during surveillance campaigns. At the moment, we have over 100 firms now bottling water. Due to the increased sourcing of water, we are revising and consulting. We have set up a consultative committee comprising 11 Government organizations to further look at this sector which is growing. This is the list of firms which have been sampled showing PH levels. This is the list of firms which have been sampled to show the fluoride levels. They are 73 firms.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I seek your indulgence to inform the House the dangers of fluoride and then I will ask a question.

No, just ask a question.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, looking at the documents that he has attached and reference made to the CODEX Standards, it is clear that the said

One question, Mr. Mututho!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have the same CODEX standards which the hon. Member has. So, he is not holding a strange document. It is a document that is available to everybody in the standards world. He is quoting on 632. As I said, it does not specify the maximum levels, with respect to water which is drilled from sources underground, from water bearing strata and without being subjected to any treatment other than filtration and decantation. Some of the water from the tapped water is different from underground water bearing rocks. This is where there is no specific maximum. When the people who are formulating our standards looked at this, they had to specify a maximum. They went into US EPA standards and it was quoted a maximum of 4.0 mg/l. So, it was not really that this is specifying 1.5ppm and we had exceeded.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is loud consultation forcing me to raise my voice.

Order! Order, hon. Members!

So, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this codex, the standard here, which is actually a World Health Organization (WHO) standard under 6.32 specifically says a maximum standard of 1.5PPM for different water, which is not the one we are given as a maximum. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, our water – the 73 that we have sampled – all of them conform except two. Even those two had a maximum of 1.8 PPM, which is still within the maximum we had given for that particular---

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, there are loud consultations going on and I cannot be heard!

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Order, hon. Members! Order! Order, Eng. Rege!

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Order! I am aware that hon. Members want us to go to the next Order, but we must allow the Minister to complete and address the supplementary questions coming up. What is your point of order, Mr. Mututho?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, is the Minister in order to continue on the Floor of the House misleading us about the threshold of parts per million while in his answer, No. 58 is Keringet Water, which he says is 1.1 PPM, whereas the

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, in fact, Keringet falls exactly on what we have defined as water originating from rocks, underground water. We have said that since this standard does not specify the maximum levels that particular source should be, we have specified a maximum of 4 PPM, so, that, 1.1 PPM or 1.8 PPM, is still within our recommended maximum levels.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, bottled mineral water loses its viscosity or density of 1 after you open it and in three days time; it becomes very thick. Can the Minister assure this House that this water is still drinkable by children, if they happen to get hold of water inadvertently?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have said in my reply that if water exceeds the maximum level for infants; if it exceeds 1.5 PPM, they are required to put a warning on the label, which says that the water is not suitable for infants and children under the age of 7 years. Now, if water has been opened and, as the hon. Member has said, it loses its viscosity – it becomes, probably, thicker or whatever – I have not been able to analyze a sample which has been opened to be able to know what chemical changes occur when it is exposed to air. Of course, as a chemist, I know that if you really expose a fluoride or a chloride, for that matter, to air, it can have a small reaction to produce a hypochlorite or a hypofloride. So, it can change its viscosity. Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Ask your last question, Mr. Mututho!

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. You heard the Minister admit that in Kenya, it is legal and perfectly in order to have 4.0 PPM as fluoride levels. Is he prepared then to accept public liability if he is taken to court, particularly by children and mothers, pregnant ones in particular?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member should not be allowed to get away with that kind of statement. I have said, and I repeat, that the maximum levels that are allowed of water, say from the tap which has been filtered, is 1.5 PPM, as specified in the codex standard here. However, when you go to water bearing rocks, we have said that there was no specification for that, and we have specified that as having a maximum of 4 PPM, in conformity with the standard which already exists – the American standard. We have also said that wherever there are maximum levels above 1.5 PPM, producers should have a label saying that it is not suitable for children under 7 years old. So, if you are giving your child fluoride levels above the recommended 1.5 PPM for ordinary water and then--- You should read the labels! So, there is no liability to be incurred by KEBs or anybody else. Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

asked the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government:- (a) to explain why the money allocated to Eldoret Municipal Council, for the development of Kimumu Market in the financial year 2008/2009, amounting to Kshs.50 million has not been spent; (b) why the Ministry diverted funds meant for the development of the Eldoret East fresh produce market, which was obtained through the stimulus package budget in 2009/2010, to the Kimumu Market; and, (c) when the market will be constructed? Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have not received the written answer.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this answer was provided to Parliament early this morning, and it was signed by the Minister; I apologize if she has not received it. But I do have a copy of the answer; I do not know if she would indulge me, so that I read through it and then she can continue to interrogate me? Is that okay? Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) It is true that the Government allocated Kshs.50 million for the development of Kimumu Hawkers Market in the Financial Year 2008/2009, but the amount was withdrawn by the Treasury due to the austerity measures introduced by the Government vide Treasury Circular No. 2 of 2009. (b) I am not aware of any diversion of funds under the Economic Stimulus Programme from Kimumu Market. The Economic Stimulus Programme is at the evaluation stage and the allocation of Kshs10 million to the Eldoret East fresh produce market is intact. (c) During the 2009/2010 Financial Year, funds for the market development were not provided; even for other on-going market projects and, therefore, there are no funds to undertake the project.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister has said that he is not aware that the funds were diverted. Is he telling us that there is another Ministry that put up adverts to say that the stimulus package market of Eldoret East would be set up in Kimumu, the same site they had allocated Kshs50 million?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the adverts that appeared in the newspapers depended on the information provided by particular constituencies. The constituency which the hon. Member comes from, including mine---

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Assistant Minister in order to mislead the House? I am telling him that they put up the advert without consulting the people of Eldoret East?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the information that I have is that the funds that were allocated for Kimumu Market are on a two-and-a-half acre plot adjacent to the market. It is not on a particular plot where the original project was to be carried out.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, having heard the Assistant Minister clearly on the Stimulus Package Project concerning the fresh produce market, could he indicate to this House when the market will be established so that wananchi can know that this was not an illusion or a failure as indicated?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the majority of the tenders for the Economic Stimulus Package markets are in the final stage of evaluation. The majority of the tenders

Mr. Speaker, Sir, in his answer to part (a) of the Question, the Assistant Minister has said that the project could not be sustained and had to be taken away because of stringent conditions. He has said now that they will award tenders for the Economic Stimulus Programme (ESP) by the end of April. Could he assure this House that the markets under the ESP will be started within this financial year, and that they will not run the risk of diversion of funds?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the funds that were reduced were those for major markets which had not been started. However, all funds under the ESP are intact and all projects due will be carried out.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, now that I have informed the Assistant Minister that we did not submit anything, could he assure this House that they will desist from awarding a tender to the market whose site we had not chosen and give us a chance to select the site for the market?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, with all certainty, if the venue was not selected upon consensus and consultations from the hon. Member and her constituents, we will give them the chance to select the venue they desire.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, once again, I beg to ask the Minister for Fisheries Development the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Could the Minister inform the House the cause of recent death of fish in Lake Naivasha and reveal the scope of effects on other aquatic life in the lake? (b) Could the Minister indicate the potential toxic levels of all chemicals used, give trends in the levels of lake pollution or eutrophication in the last ten years and reveal the expected long-term impact on aquatic life? (c) What mitigation measures is the Minister taking to save the fish and other aquatic life in the lake?

Is the Minister for Fisheries Development here? The Minister for Information and Communications, could you hold brief for your colleague? What is happening to the Minister for Fisheries Development?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thought that the Minister had indicated that he would not be able to answer the Question today. However, now that he is not here the Question can be deferred to another day and I will pass the information to him.

Is the Assistant Minister for Fisheries Development here?

Order, Members! The impression we get, unfortunately, from the record of events is that the Minister may very well be avoiding answering this Question! This is because

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I request for a second chance and see if that can be disproved.

Fair enough! I will defer this Question to Thursday this week. In the meantime, the House will not hear the Minister on any business whatsoever, including his contribution to the Constitution until we have an explanation.

to ask the Minister for Information and Communications:- (a) To update the House on the Status of the Information Communication and Technology Project for each constituency planned to be funded through the Economic Stimulus Package. (b) Will the Minister supply desktop computers to each constituency under the same project in view of exorbitant proposal of the IT Buses of Kshs7 million which was rejected by the House?

Hon. Members, Question No.1 by Private Notice is deferred until Wednesday afternoon. This is largely because the Member for Kisumu Town East was not able to get here on time. The Minister was actually dutifully here as we started. So, the Member for Kisumu Town East, please, try to be on time next time. I know there is a problem with the traffic, but it affects all of us.

Hon. Members, that brings us to the end of Question Time.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to make the following Ministerial Statement regarding the cancellation of the KQ Flight No.0403 on 26th February, 2010 scheduled for Addis Ababa-Nairobi route. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to clarify that the Kenya Airways Flight No.KQ.0403 of 26th February, 2010 was cancelled after its crew ran out of the duty time allowed. This was caused by the delay in sorting out passengers who had overflowed from the flight that had been cancelled the previous day. The route’s normal operations were restored the next day, 27th February, 2010. The main reason of the first cancellation arose from the Kenya Airways issuance to the media on 25th February, 2010 of a statement announcing that its pilot under the umbrella of the body of Kenya Airlines Pilots Association (KAPA) had withdrawn goodwill with the management of the Kenya Airways over a failed agreement during

Mr. Speaker, Sir, first, let me thank the Assistant Minister for the Ministerial Statement. Kenya Airways is our national career and I would like, on the onset, to congratulate them for the many awards they have received. However, the concern we have is that, being “ The Pride of Africa”, I did request the Assistant Minister to indicate to this House how much money was spent on payment to hotels and parking fee at Addis Ababa Airport. Secondly, the reason that he has given for the delay on that particular day is because the crew ran out of their duty time. From Addis Ababa to Nairobi is only one hour and forty minutes flight time. Would it not have been better for the crew to fly to Nairobi and protect the good name of this country? I saw serious disappointment from those who were on board.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, earlier last year, the former Minister for Transport, Mr. Mwakwere, told us in this House that Kenya Airways was not a national airline. Could the Assistant Minister confirm whether the former Minister was correct?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, is the Assistant Minister aware that when a flight was parked in Ethiopia on 26th February, 2010, on 28th February, 2010, another flight left Bujumbura, landed in Kigali, where passengers were kept in the aeroplane for three hours, causing the crew to also run out of duty hours and, therefore, causing them to sleep in Kigali?

Yes, Assistant, Minister!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, first, on Prof. Kamar’s question, I am not aware of the incident that happened during that particular time. Since that is not part of what was sought in the Ministerial Statement, I will not interrogate that process. I hope that satisfies you, Madam. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to state that the total cost for the two nights hotel accommodation, Visa and telephone expenses was US$19,429. I would also like to reiterate that the reason for the cancellation of the flight was not just that particular flight. It was because there was another flight, Flight KQ0406, which had affected the flight to Ethiopia. Flight KQ0406 was cancelled. The cancellation of that flight affected Flight KQ0402. In response to Mr. Shakeel’s question, I would like to state that it is a matter of public importance to note that Kenya Airways is a company floated at the Nairobi Stock Exchange. Therefore, it is a public company. It has shareholders who are foreigners and locals. The Ministry’s responsibility is derived from the fact that flying is a matter of national interest. So, whether the company is private or national, the Ministry has to ensure that the passengers’ safety is catered for. Even if the airline belonged to a private company and a question is raised in this House, it becomes the duty of the Ministry to find out exactly what happened in order to respond. Thank you.

Order! Order, hon. Members! Is there any other Statement due for delivery that is ready? If not, we will move to requests, starting with hon. Kioni!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise on a point of order to request for a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Lands on the secret sale of public plot L.R. No.2097437, popularly referred to as “The International Casino”, which is located at the Museum Hill.

In that Statement, I would like the Minister to give the background of this property, indicating the following: The rental income on it, who the developer who had erected a fence around the property is, when and under what circumstances he acquired the property; confirm whether the procedure of allocating this public land was followed,

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I undertake to inform the Minister so that he can respond sometime next week after doing some serious consultations.

Is Tuesday next week, okay?

Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Order, hon. Members! Hon. Otieno Kajwang has full instructions to brief the Minister for Lands.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Ministerial Statement will be issued on Tuesday afternoon.

It is so ordered! This is a matter of public interest. We all have known The International Casino for many years. So, it should not be too difficult for the Minister to deal with this matter.

Hon. Members, you will recall that the Chairperson of the Parliamentary Select Committee on the Review of the Constitution tabled the Report and the Draft Constitution submitted by the Committee of Experts (CoE) on Tuesday the 2nd March, 2010 pursuant to Section 33(3) of the Constitution of Kenya Review Act, 2008. He further gave Notice of Motion for the House to approve the Draft Constitution. The House is expected to consider the Draft Constitution and do either of the following as required by Section 33(4) of the Constitution of Kenya Review Act:- (a) Approve the Draft Constitution without amendments and submit it to the Attorney-General for publication; or (b) Propose amendments to the Draft Constitution and submit the Draft Constitution and proposed amendments to the Attorney-General, who shall, within seven days, submit them to the CoE for consultation and re-drafting. Consequently, I would like to guide the House on the procedure that will obtain with regard to the consideration of the Draft Constitution. There are certain precedents that have been set in the past that could be useful in the present scenario, which it must be noted, is very unique. On the 27th October, 1964, when the House of Representatives was debating the Constitution of Kenya (Amendment) Bill which led to the creation of the Republican Government in Kenya, the amendments were introduced in the House in the form of a Bill. The House then, as it is today, was embarking on a very important constitutional debate and changes. Whereas the House then carried a major review of the Constitution in the form of a Bill, in our present case, the House is required by law to approve the Draft Constitution, with or without amendments.

A situation like the present case occurred on the 30th June, 2005 when the House was deliberating on a Report of the Select Committee on Review of the Constitution of Kenya on contentious issues identified in accordance with Section 27(1) (b) and Section 27(2) of the Constitution of Kenya Review (Amendment) Act, 2004 (now repealed), laid on the Table of the House on the 29th June, 2005. The House passed the Motion which culminated in the 2005 Referendum. This Motion was treated like any other Motion in the House. Hon. Members, I will allow those at the Bar to come in! Hon. Members, in view of the above, I direct that the considerations of the Draft Constitution by the House shall be done in the plenary through a Motion to be moved by the Chairperson of the Parliamentary Select Committee on the Review of the Constitution as indicated in order No.8 in the Order Paper.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the convenience of hon. Members, would it be possible that a copies of your directions are made available in our pigeon holes? It will be difficult to retrieve it from the HANSARD as quickly as possible; it is important that when we are debating this very important motion that we strictly comply with your directions.

Yes, Minister for Lands, that is okay and I direct that this communication be made available at the rise of the House today, so that all Members have access to it from their pigeon holes.

What is it Mr. Isack Ruto?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to request for directions as to the stage we are in according to the Constitution of Kenya Review Act. I also wish to seek clarification as to what document is before the House. We are dealing with it as a Motion from the Chairman of the Parliamentary Select Committee on Constitution Review. There are various generous references to it as a “Draft Constitution”. At what stage does it become a Draft Constitution? It has been generously referred to as a Draft Constitution all the way from Bomas. But at this stage, in my view, we have to be guided by the review Act and the Act states--- The Constitution refers to it generously but I will leave that to Mr. Orengo. The point I am putting across is that you have indicated to us that we are now at Section 33(4). At this stage, we are supposed to debate it and do either (a) or (b). After this, it is indicated what happens to the document. But Section 33 (5) specifically states, and I wish to read it out for us to understand. Section 5(a) states that the National Assembly shall consider the draft Constitution submitted under Sub-section 5. That is, whatever will be submitted to us after Sub-section 5 in accordance with the provisions of Section 47A (2) (b). At this stage, it assumed that, that is when this document starts a life as a draft Constitution.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am wondering whether we are reading the same law with Mr. Ruto because we cannot, in any way, try to interpret that law in any other way. Everybody in this House and the country at large knows that the intention of Parliament is to make alteration if necessary and if possible. But it should be so grave a matter that it should gather two thirds majority support of the House.

Is it in order for us to seek to try and introduce an interpretation that seems to suggest that a simple majority should, in fact, be able to amend any section? This is not a simple report. Everybody knows that it is a constitutional matter. Is he in order?

Order, Dr. Machage! The Member for Ikolomani was on his feet earlier than you were!

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This point of order by Mr. Ruto--- He has raised two issues which are really disturbing me and I beg that, in your ruling, you address yourself to them. The first one is that, without saying it, he is implying that the Chair should find that for us to make this decision, we should not be guided by the requirement of two thirds majority, but a simple majority. If this is what the Chair should, therefore, rule, then it means that we want to use the Chair to help hon. Members who want to mutilate this particular draft to fit their own desires. The second thing which he has raised, and which I would like you to comment on, is that only a group of seven has worked on this document. If that is not arrogance; if that is not lack of respect for the millions of Kenyans who sat for all those days to give their views; if that is not lack of respect for the PSC, CoE and assume that the only competent people who can now talk about this is us, then I beg that the Chair finds him out of order.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Mr. Ruto raised a point of order that is of far much importance to us in the House and yet, Mr. Mungatana purported to answer it on your behalf. Was he in order to do that? The point of order was raised directly to you, the Chair! Would I, therefore, be in order to suggest that Mr. Mungatana’s suggestions be completely erased from the HANSARD for the purposes of this discussion?

Order, hon. Members! I will deal with the concern by Dr. Machage easily. Dr. Machage, the Speaker enjoys that discretion to take Members contributions when a matter is raised, more so, a matter of a weighty nature such as this. So, the contributions by Mr. Mungatana are legitimate and the Chair accepts them in good faith; except that the Chair does not make a finding on them. What Mr. Mungatana attempted to do is persuade the Chair to think in a given direction which Dr. Machage you could reverse by putting in place a contribution that will persuade me otherwise. So, I will not direct that the contributions by Mr. Mungatana be erased from the HANSARD because I will find them useful even as I exercise my mind on what ruling to make.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the points brought out by my friend, Mr. Ruto, are important, but I think they are based, with respect, on some fallacies. I think it is because he is reading the Act without reading it together with the Constitution. Indeed, the CoE had indicated that there was a need to amend the Review Act because it came before the constitutional amendments and there were some sections in the Review Act which were not completely in consonance with the constitutional provisions. To answer his question, if you read the Review Act, it takes about a draft Constitution. That is the document which would be introduced to this House if we were solely dealing with the Review Act. But the document recognized by the Constitution--- If you look at your copy of the document which was introduced by the Chairman of PSC, it is titled “Proposed Constitution”. Those are two different things!

The second fallacy is that Mr. Ruto is still looking for this animal called the constituent assembly. A constituent assembly can actually enact a Constitution!

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is it Mr. I. Ruto and be careful that you do not go to argument.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not going into arguments. I only want to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister that I am not arguing along the lines as to who has the responsibility of replacement and I am not arguing against the participation of the Kenyan people and its replacement through the referendum. I was asking about the sequencing of our events and at what stage, which I am requesting the Chair to make a ruling on, at what stage do we apply the provisions of Article 59(a) of Section 33. I want to confirm to Mr. Orengo that I have read the Constitution. I can read them simultaneously, but you cannot challenge my ability to read them. I am talking about the sequencing. What is the sequencing and at what stage do these things become applicable?

Order, Mr. Ruto! Your point is made. Indeed, it is repetitive.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I understand and know that the term of the Committee of Experts has expired. Are they still an organ of the review process?

Order, hon. Members!

Member for Nyando, you either freeze or find a place to sit.

Freeze! Freeze!

Hon. Members, I have heard the matter canvassed by Mr. Ruto on a point of order and I appreciate that he has serious concerns with respect to interpretation of the Constitution of Kenya Review Act as passed by this House in 2008 read alongside the Constitution of this country and the supplements made in the points of orders raised by other hon. Members; Mr. Mungatana, Dr. Khalwale, Dr. Machage and Mr. Orengo.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir, on a different matter. Thank you for indulging me. I know the excitement for the next Order. You made a ruling two weeks ago on the memorandum from the President on the matter of the Office of Ministers Bill that was due to the House on 17th March which was last week. Now today if my reading of the Order Paper is the same like yours, it reads 23rd March. I just need further guidance from the Chair.

Indeed, I gave directions on that matter and I gave further directions on Wednesday last week. I directed that I would be reading the Presidential memorandum tomorrow Wednesday. We will then proceed to transact business on that memorandum as I will direct tomorrow.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, pursuant to the provisions of Section 33(4) of the Constitution of Kenya Review Act, 2008, this House approves the Draft Constitution submitted by the Committee of Experts and laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 2nd March, 2010. Mr. Speaker, Sir, to call historical, the functions that we are asked to do by this Motion is an understatement. The journey to seek for a new constitutional order in this country has been long and torturous. It started before Independence. It has been on since Independence and if the activities of the election violence were to show anything, it has been bloody. Indeed, many people have lost their lives through the process that we have undergone. Probably, I should start with an elucidation of the philosophy of the Act. This process is predicated upon the earlier processes. It is not a fresh start. If anything, we are at the very tail end of the process. The architecture of the Act is such that we are to build

Order, Members! We are applying the provisions of Standing Order No.87. The Chair of the Committee had 60 minutes at his disposal. The Seconder will have 20 minutes while the Minister will have 30 minutes. The rest of us will have 20 minutes.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, in seconding this Motion, allow me to start by humbly reminding this House of two fundamentals which I hope will remain at the back of our minds as we debate this critical Motion in the life of our nation. The first fundamental is that the role assigned to Parliament in this process is critical, but not divine. We have a role that is critical, but it is not divine. So, we must not at any moment imagine that even though we are the supreme law making organ in this country, that we are superior to the other organs of review. This is because we are not. This process has been designed by its very architecture. The architecture was designed by this very House in such an interlocking manner that gives due recognition and respect to each organ of review in a forward moving manner. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to remind hon. Members that if we, by any chance, fail to undertake our responsibility as an organ of review, we shall have thrown away the great opportunity to influence this process in a fundamental manner. In saying that, I want to invite hon. Members to look at the Constitution of Kenya Review Act that governs this process. Section 33(6) says:- “If the National Assembly fails to approve the Draft Constitution in accordance with sub-sections 4 and 5, a joint meeting between the Parliamentary Select Committee and the Committee of Experts (CoE) shall be convened by the Chair of the CoE to consider the issue or issues and make recommendations to the National Assembly. In considering issues not approved by the National Assembly, the meeting convened under Sub-section 6 shall invite the reference group to make recommendations on how the issue or issues may be resolved. The meeting convened under Sub-section 7, a meeting to which a reference group shall have been invited, shall be held in consecutive sessions over a period of not more than seven days and shall be chaired by the Chairperson of the CoE. Upon decision of the meeting, the CoE shall within seven days revise the Draft Constitution and submit a report and the new Draft Constitution to the National Assembly.” Section 33(10) says:- “The National Assembly shall within 21 days approve the Draft Constitution and submit it to the Attorney-General for publication.” Mr. Speaker, Sir, what I am reminding hon. Members is that if by any chance we choose not to approve this draft, let us not imagine that that will kill this process, because we will not. This process will proceed onwards only that, unfortunately, rather than this House bringing its influence and collective wisdom to bear on this process, we shall give that responsibility to the reference group to make those critical final decisions. We shall give that responsibility to the CoE as an organ of review. So, it is up to us as we undertake this draft - allow me to paraphrase President Harry Truman, the 33rd President of the USA – to either say the buck stops here and we make the critical decisions that must be made or to pass that buck to other organs of review because the process shall not die on the Floor of this House.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise in support of the Motion.

Order, hon. Members! I hear murmurs that the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs should have caught my eye. The Minister did not picket for a place!

Please, Ms. Karua, proceed!

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise in support of this Motion which has been so eloquently moved and seconded by the Chair and Vice-Chair of the Parliamentary Select Committee (PSC).

I will endavour not to repeat what has already been put before the House. A lot of issues have been raised by people about the checks and balances of a presidential system of government. I will begin by saying that it must be noted by all that the system we have is a parliamentary system, but corrupted by the Office of the President being merged with the Office of the Governor at Independence and, therefore, creating a presidency that is unknown to a pure parliamentary system.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, yes, it is a historic occasion that will be remembered either for boosting the morale and interest of development of our people in Kenya or demoralise and subject some communities of this country into oblivion. Yes, the Constitution has been designed and carefully so by lawyers and able people, referred to as a Committee of Experts. It aims at reducing imperial powers of the Presidency as we have all known since Independence. But this proposed Constitution should not be used as a document of oppression to minorities and marginalised communities in this country, with a mere promise that it will give birth to an equal society. That will never happen. That is the truth.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, population increase is a demographic factor and it is exponential. This document has many clauses and articles that need to be relooked into. I pray that this House becomes wise enough to see the details that lie in these statements as being derogatively oppressive or totally inconsistent with what the Kenyan people want. I beg to quote some of these issues from the same book.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this document says those holding offices of power; I believe Presidency or leadership either before or currently are barred from contesting the next election. It sounds nice. However, remember we have a National Accord. This National Accord was signed a few months ago by the two Principals. It says the President and the Prime Minister will share power equally. This power sharing deal is embedded in the current Constitution. This document as it is, accept it or not, bars the Prime Minister from contesting in 2012. I am not a lawyer, but that is the truth.

Which Section?

You read it. You have been reading this book.

Hon. Members, we have come to the end of today’s sitting. Therefore, the House stands adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, 24th March, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.

The House rose at 6.30 p.m .