Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Could the Minister clarify whether the Police have established the circumstances surrounding the loss of two High Court files, No. HCCC 1909/09 and HCCC 1416/95, from the court strong room? (b) Could he also confirm whether the police investigated the loss of a title deed and transfer transaction of proposed sale of property LR 36/VII/586 (Original No.50-52, 117) I.R 5666/2 by Mr. George Chege and Mr. Mark Ngarira?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I request the indulgence of the Chair to allow me to answer this Question on Thursday, this week. This is because there are some issues which the Questioner wanted me to sort out first, that is, make some arrests and charge the suspects. So, I request that I answer this Question on Thursday.

The Member for Ndaragwa, the Assistant Minister needs a little more time to source information for you.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have no objection, but it is good to note that this Question was placed on today’s Order Paper on the direction of Mr. Speaker, because the Assistant Minister had given an answer that was unsatisfactory. We hope that he will give an appropriate answer on Thursday.

Fair enough! I direct that the Question appears on the Order Paper on Thursday at 2.30 p.m. Let us move on to the Question by the Member for Bura!

Is the Member for Bura not here? Let us move on to the Question by the hon. Member for Laisamis.

Hon. Members, on this Question, I have intimation from the two parties, that is both the hon. Member and the Minister of State for Development of Northern Kenya and Other Arid Lands that they will not be able to transact this Question this afternoon. So, I defer this Question to Tuesday, next week at 2.30 p.m.

asked the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government:- (a) under what circumstances the City Council offices in Harambee Ward in Makadara Constituency were demolished and the offices transferred to Jericho; (b) why the land meant for the said council offices is currently occupied by a private developer; and, (c) what action the Ministry is taking to ensure the land reverts back to the public.

Is anyone here from the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government? We will attempt another round on this. Let us move on to the Question by Member for Vihiga!

asked the Minister for Co-operative Development and Marketing:-

Is anyone here from the Ministry of Co-operative Development and Marketing? We will treat this Question in a similar manner as Question No.549.

asked the Minister for Immigration and Registration of Persons:- (a) to indicate the number and names of people issued with new identity cards in Kwale, Mombasa, Kilifi, Taita Taveta, Malindi, Tana River and Lamu districts from January to August, 2010; (b) whether he is aware that applications approved by the Lamu District Committee are routinely rejected at the headquarters in Nairobi and, if so, what is the point of having the District Registrar of Persons Committee at the district level; and, (c) whether he could table a list of names of people who have not collected their identity cards in Kwale, Mombasa, Kilifi, Taita Taveta, Malindi, Tana River and Lamu districts as at 15th September, 2010.

Is anyone here from the Ministry of State for Immigration and Registration of Persons? There seems to be something the matter with the Front Bench notwithstanding my willingness to accommodate them. We will come back to the Question a little later. If there is any Whip for the Front Bench, please, take some action.

Is Mr. Ethuro not here? Let us move on to the Question by the Member for Kisumu Town!

asked the Minister for Lands:-

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. The title deeds which are a subject matter of the Question were allotted to the persons to whom these pieces of land were allotted on the basis that they were available for alienation. Eventually, the subsequent dealings on the land were on the basis that the land was available for alienation. However, since the land was alienated to the persons whose names appear as title holders, I have given instructions to the Commissioner of Lands in collaboration with the Office of the Attorney-General that forfeiture proceedings be instituted for the recovery of the said pieces of land under Section 77 of the Government Lands Act. Just for purposes of clarity, I want to point out that the following parcels of land, that is, KSM MUN/BLOCK 13/10, KSM MUN/BLOCK 13/11, KSM MUN/BLOCK 13/12, KSM MUN/BLOCK 13/13. KSM MUN/BLOCK 13/14, KSM MUN/BLOCK 13/15 and KSM MUN/BLOCK 13/87 were allocated to the late Hezekiah Oyugi; Mr. John Kokwaro and Mr. Donald Joseph Okiro. This was done through the office of the Commissioner of Lands. However, I have since determined that all of them have not been developed which would be in breach of the conditions of the lease. So, I have given instructions for all those pieces of land to be recovered by the Government.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, allow me to say that I am very proud of what the Minister is doing not just on these allocations, but on all other allocations of illegally acquired land in Kenya. However, as the Question states, this land belongs to Joel Omino Primary and Secondary Schools in Kisumu. The alienation of this land was clearly obtained by falsification. First, there was an allegation that the land was available for registration which is not true because this was school’s land. Secondly, there was an allegation that the land would be developed by the people to whom it was allotted. That has not been done up to date. Under these circumstances, and given the answer by the Minister, could he confirm how soon it will take the Ministry and the Office of the Attorney-General to finalize forfeiture proceedings and revert this land to Joel Omino Primary and Secondary Schools?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, to give assurances on timelines is very difficult for me because when the proceedings are before the High Court, I cannot control them. However, I can assure the hon. Member that the instructions are being acted on. I will make sure that this is resolved as quickly as possible. Indeed, in line with the new Constitution, there is a provision that Parliament should establish a court with equal

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am glad that the hon. Minister is taking steps to ensure that no further impunity occurs in Kenya with regard to allocation of public land. The persons to whom those parcels of land were allocated were clearly public figures at that time. I am, however, satisfied with the action the Minister has taken.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, just for the purpose of clarity, there is no transaction that can take place against those titles as we await the decision of the court. So, the hon. Member should rest assured that nothing will happen.

Is the Member for Ol Kalou not here? Since we have given other hon. Members the benefit of another round, we will let the Member for Ol Kalou enjoy the same.

Is the Member for Kiharu not here? We will give the Member for Kiharu the same treatment. We will now do the second round. Member for Bura!

Is the Member for Bura still not here? His Question is dropped!

asked the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government:-

Is the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government still not here? Mr. Minister of State for Public Service, will you hold brief for your colleague?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will draw the attention of the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government on the serious breach. He should be able to answer the Question during the week.

I will then defer this Question to Thursday at 2.30 p.m. I expect that the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government will be here with a tenable explanation as to why he has made this breach.

Let us move on to Mr. Chanzu’s Question!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the second time, I beg to ask Question No.468.

asked the Minister for Co-operative Development and Marketing:- (a) whether he is aware that Vihiga Teachers SACCO is owed a lot of money by the borrowers; and, (b) whether he could provide names of persons indebted to the SACCO indicating the amount each owes and what steps the Minister is taking to ensure that those who owe the SACCO repay their outstanding liabilities.

Is the Minister for Co-operative Development and Marketing still not here? Hon. Orengo, will you hold brief for your counterpart? The Ministry of Co- operative Development and Marketing is not very far from the Ministry of Lands.

You are very right, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I will alert the Minister about the serious breach. However, with your permission, could this Question be deferred until Thursday?

How many workshops do we require before you people can change, turn round and do what you should do?

Probably, we need an overhaul.

Can we invite Chuka Dancers to come with their drums and beat them for the Executive?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is very pleasant. It will be an easier task than being grilled by the side opposite.

Order, hon. Members! Mr. Minister, you were not here when this Question was called out and when it was due. This is the third time we are calling it out. Do you have anything to put in by way of account or explanation? We were wondering why the Legislature, jointly with your leadership in the Executive, has endeavoured to put together several workshops to sensitize you on your duties and roles to Kenyans and to the House and yet it does not seem to be making any difference. So, what do you suggest that we should do to make you do your work?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do apologise most sincerely. I was aware and then I forgot. That is what happened. I know the Question from the hon. Member who is my friend about Vihiga teachers. I forgot to come with the answer to Parliament. However, if he gives me a copy of his answer which he is holding, I can answer the Question. I apologise for this. It was not deliberate. I take your warning very seriously. I know we have had seminars. I am very sorry. Since I know the answer, if you allow him to give me the copy of the answer, I will answer the Question.

Mr. Minister, I am afraid you are being very casual. You were aware that this Question would be placed on the Order Paper. You have said that you have prepared an answer, but you do not have it. Now you want the hon. Member to give you his copy of the answer. Really, what are we talking about, Mr. Minister?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have said that I am sorry I forgot to bring the answer. However, I know that we had given the hon. Member a copy of the answer. So, I plead with you to allow me to get the copy of the answer so that I can answer the Question. It was not deliberate. I am very sorry. You know that I respect you and the rules of the House.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Could the Minister tell us what he came to do in the House if he forgot the business of the House?

Order, hon. Members! Of course I take this matter very seriously. I note that even the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government was not here when Question No.549 was called out. He came in subsequently after we had called

asked the Minister for Immigration and Registration of Persons:- (a) to indicate the number and names of people issued with new identity cards in Kwale, Mombasa, Kilifi, Taita Taveta, Malindi, Tana River and Lamu districts from January to August, 2010; (b) whether he is aware that applications approved by the Lamu District Committee are routinely rejected at the headquarters in Nairobi and, if so, what is the point of having the District Registrar of Persons Committee at the district level; and, (c) whether he could table a list of names of people who have not collected their identity cards in Kwale, Mombasa, Kilifi, Taita Taveta, Malindi, Tana River and Lamu districts as at 15th September, 2010.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to raise a matter of procedural nature before I can answer this Question. First, it is the same Question that I answered on 28th October, 2010. I remember bringing before this House volumes of names from Kwale, Mombasa, Kilifi, Taita and Tana River. At that time, my brother did---

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Minister has just rose to answer the Question and yet he was not here when the Question was called out first. Is he in order to continue answering the Question before explaining why he was late? He should apologise to the House.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank my brother for reminding me that. Actually, I was walking in when the Question was called out for the first time. I was of the view that

Mr. Minister, what you are saying is very important and I would like to verify that. Mr. Yakub, is that so?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to remind the Minister that the copy of the HANSARD which I have in this House says clearly that I had asked the Chair at that time to give me more time to go through the list so that I can ask supplementary questions the following week. That is why the Question has been put on the Order Paper.

Very well! Could you now ask your supplementary question?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, from the list given by my good friend the Minister, 68,162 is the number of people issued with identity cards. Part “c” of the answer shows that 25,127 have not collected their identity cards. Could the Minister tell us the arrangement he has made to ensure that the 25,127 uncollected identity cards reach their owners?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, as a matter of fact, it is the responsibility of the citizen of Kenya who applied for registration to collect his identity card when it is ready. As a matter of fact, it is very painful that we spend a lot of time to register Kenyan citizens and keep some of those identity cards for more than a year before their owners come for them. Last year just before the referendum, we did something extra-ordinary. We asked the District Commissioners to ask the District Officers and the chiefs about the owners of some identity cards. In my village, I found a headman carrying them while walking from gate to gate asking the owners to pick them. However, I do not think that, that is our responsibility. Kenyans must be told that it is their right and duty to make sure that they are registered. They should collect their identity cards when they are ready. However, I am willing to co-operate and ask the DCs of the various districts that the hon. Member has mentioned to find ways of working with the chiefs to make sure that the identity cards reach their owners. I urge the hon. Member to inform the public, as I am doing, that it is their responsibility to collect their identity cards and not to wait for them to be taken to their homes.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have a community in my constituency, the Somalis who migrated from North Eastern Province. They have lived there for a long time and have given birth to children who have now reached the age of acquiring identity cards. When they meet the screening committee, they are told to go and get identity cards from North Eastern Province. Are we not discriminating against these Kenyans who have now become residents of Bahari Constituency? They have lived in that constituency for a long time and have given birth to children who are now old enough to get identity cards and yet they are told to go back to North Eastern Province to get the same.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was unaware that, that is happening and it is good that the hon. Member for Bahari has brought it to my attention. Every Kenyan has a right to be registered wherever he lives as long as he can be identified as a Kenyan. The only problem is that sometimes we are doubtful whether one is a Kenyan or not. I think sometimes we take that too far and consequently deny people who have a right to be registered their right of registration. On top of what I have just said, could the hon. Member write a letter to me addressing this particular issue so that we can take it up as a special case?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, 25,177 uncollected identity cards is a very large number indeed. Is the Minister satisfied that the directive he had given to the DCs to contact chiefs and chiefs to contact assistant chiefs and assistant chiefs to contact headmen was acted upon given the fact that this Minister is on record as having said that these people should pack up and go? Is it possible that they have refused to implement his directive given the fact that he said publicly that they should pack up and go?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, of course, I said that when the time comes; that is when we have the devolved governments, they will not have a role or if they do, it will not be in the manner in which it is currently established. I am not willing to withdraw that but this happened last time when we had the referendum. That was because we co- operated with the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security. I request the Minister to assist me in this regard because it is not his responsibility to be distributing identity cards. However, because they have to reach the owners, and we want to co-operate in this regard, we request for his assistance. Again, it is important that every Kenyan knows that it is their duty to register, collect and carry their identity cards.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I acknowledge the answer given by the Minister, and noting that there are many applications rejected at his Ministry headquarters, what assistance does the Ministry give to those applicants when their applications are rejected, so that they can have the required documents?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the consultations were a bit lould; so, I did not quite get the gist of the question. But it is that there are certain applicants whose applications are rejected, that is normal. I am not saying that it should happen, but it happens because maybe the form was not properly filled, maybe the person who was taking the finger prints did not take it properly or maybe the person who was taking the photograph did not take it properly. For such reasons, we take them back so that the application is done properly one more time. We usually take them back to the District Registrar of Persons and he routes them down the line to the administrators, so that this information reaches the applicants. So, if there is anybody who has not gotten his ID because their application was rejected, it is our duty to replace it within 21 days if it is an upcountry applicant. Please, if there is any pending case raise it with me.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I just heard the Minister saying that those uncollected ID cards should be collected and Kenyans should carry them. I want the Minister to clarify, is it a must that every Kenyan must carry an ID card, or is it an option?

The law is that the applicants should register. The law does not require you to carry an identity card, but definitely if somebody was to ask you whether you are a Kenyan or not and you do not have it, you would go to unnecessary inconvenience before you prove it. So, we would advice that if you cannot carry the original, at least carry some information that can show that you have been registered and you are a Kenyan.

asked the Minister for Public Health and Sanitation:- (a) to provide a list of all health facilities in the Turkana County from 1980 up to date, stating name, location/site, type of facility, staffing levels, distances from each other, registration of vehicles assigned and names of the District Health Management Board Members, where applicable; (b) to indicate the number of cases of emergency treatment, especially vehicle accidents, gunshot wounds and other victims of cattle rustling, cholera outbreaks, malaria, dysentery that have been treated in those health facilities per facility in the last 3 years, and what the Ministry is doing to address these emergencies; and (c) what plans the Government has to ensure each sub-location, location, division and district has a dispensary, health centre, sub-district hospital and a hospital respectively, and how much funds have been allocated for the upgrading of Lodwar District Hospital to a referral facility following an earlier Government commitment, in March 2010. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I apologise for coming late. I expected it to be reached after about 30 minutes because it is the seventh Question on the Order Paper.

Note it and be careful next time!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not have a copy of the answer and it is quite a detailed one; I am entitled to a written answer.

Order Assistant Minister! Where is the answer for the hon. Member?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I just wanted to tell the Member for Turkana Central that there are two Ministries that deal with health matters in this country, and that parts “a” and “b” of his Question belong to the Ministry of Public Health and Sanitation, but part “c” belongs to the Ministry of Medical Services. Therefore, we have brought back the Question to

Very well, that appears genuine. So the Question has to be broken into three, so that parts “a” and “b” go to which Ministry, Assistant Minister?

(Dr. Gesami)

Will Thursday afternoon be fine for you to answer parts “a” and “b”?

(Dr. Gesami)

Why next week? You had time; you have seen the Question already, and you have only brought it back!

(Dr. Gesami)

Hon. Ethuro!

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Initially, the Assistant Minister was talking about responsibilities, now he is talking about the magnitude of the task before him; which is which? More fundamentally, I think the Government has a collective responsibility to Parliament. I would have expected my good friend, the Assistant Minister for Public Health and Sanitation, to have consulted his colleagues. But, as you directed, let him answer what he is comfortable with and we will give the rest to the responsible Ministry, if it is convenient to him; but that is no reason for him to ask for more time.

Assistant Minister, I will direct that you be ready to answer parts “a” and “b” on Tuesday afternoon, at 2.30 p.m., and sensitize your counterpart in the other Ministry to bring the answer to part “c”, as a substantive Question to that Ministry, also on Tuesday at 2.30 p.m.

Most obliged, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. If you look at part “c”, apart from the referral status of Lodwar District Hospital, the sub-location dispensary, the location and the division are within the mandate of his Ministry. Is he in order to abdicate his responsibility by transferring the whole thing to the Ministry of Medical Services?

Order, Member for Turkana Central! I have given directions. Given that the Assistant Minister appeared to be genuine, as I said, he will answer parts “a” and “b” and his counterpart will answer part “c” as a substantive Question to his Ministry. Let us see what happens on Tuesday at 2.30 p.m.

asked the Minister for Roads :- (a) whether he is aware that Road C83, which joins C77 with C99, was designed in 1994 and 1997 for tarmacking but it is yet to be tarmacked, and how much money was used for the two exercises; (b) whether he could state how much money was used, how many kilometers were tarmacked and the fate of the remaining part of the road; and (c) what plans he has to tarmack the road which links two district headquarters and one provincial headquarters. Mr. Speaker, Sir, first of all I apologise because I do not know whether you called out my Question before I arrived here.

Order, Mr. Mureithi! What is the subject of your apology?

I am told that many Questions were not answered and I was not here. So I need your indulgence---

Order! The fact that other Questions have not been answered does not explain why you were not here when the Question was called out.

We were coming from Embu.

That is not a good reason, I am afraid!

On Parliamentary business---

You may just be the one to be punished this afternoon.

I want to apologise, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Please, be careful not to repeat that because that is not a reasonable explanation.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Assistant Minister, you may proceed!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) I am not aware that Road C83, which joins C77 and C99, that is Dundori to OlJororok was designed to bitumen standard in 1994 and 1997. (b) My Ministry carried out in-house maintenance sometime back in 1991, in which a section of five kilometers was sealed to hold the gravel. (c) The Ministry, through the Kenya National Highways Authority, has advertised for the design of the roads. The contract is expected to be awarded by January 2011. The road will be considered for tarmacking after the completion of the design work.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to tell the Assistant Minister that the information about the design of Road C83 is common knowledge because it was given to previous contractors. The Assistant Minister has not even answered my question regarding how much they used in terms of what he is referring to as minor sealing or tarmacking to hold the gravel. Could the Assistant Minister tell us how much money they used for both design and the issue of sealing the road to bitumen standard to cover the gravel, and whether that was the purpose for the design work?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I have indicated, my records at the Ministry indicate that no design was carried out. However, we did an in-house sealing process that cost a total of Kshs4 million in 1991. What the hon. Member is referring to as “common knowledge” does not appear in our records, and I would be glad if he could furnish us with the information.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank my neighbour, the Assistant Minister, because he has done a commendable job from Pipeline to Elementaita. I did ask this Question last time and he promised me that in the emergency kitty they had Kshs900 million set aside for emergencies. Could the Assistant Minister consider releasing that Kshs900 million for work between Mau Narok and Elementaita? Is it available?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to confirm to the hon. Member that the section of the road he has referred to, although that is a different Question, has been declared impassable and my Ministry is considering setting aside funds through the emergency kitty to ensure that the it is maintained to motorable standard.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not think the Government is serious. This road traverses a very high potential area. It delivers milk and foodstuffs to Nakuru, Nyahururu and also the northern region. It has become the norm; the Ministry of Roads always says that it will do design work. Could I get an assurance from the Assistant Minister that he will consider this road, considering that other roads are equally impassable in my constituency, and upgrade it to bitumen standard in order to increase investment in the area?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I appreciate the concerns by the hon. Member, but also wish to assure him that the section of the road that leads to Ol Kalou also goes through Lanet-Dundori. It is a road for which my Ministry has already awarded a contract---

Order, hon. Members! Please, lower the level of your consultations so that we hear the Assistant Minister.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was saying that I wanted to assure the hon. Member that my Ministry recognizes the importance of this road, and we will ensure that we do everything possible to upgrade it to bitumen standard, more so, noting that it is the only road within that highly productive area that has not been upgraded. I also wish to inform the House that a contract on the road from Lanet to Dundori has already been awarded and work will commence within this month. It is only logical to connect it to the Ol Jororok Road.

asked the Minister for Roads:-

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) I am aware that the work of tarmacking Mukurweini-Gakonya-Rutune and Mahuini Roads, that is D529, D559 and D554, stopped due to exhaustion of funds. (b) The contract for construction of the above roads was awarded to TM-AM Construction at a tender sum of Kshs1,113,073,000. (c) The unfinished works are due to be retendered before the end of November this year and subsequently the contract will be awarded after evaluation.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, while I appreciate the answer given by the Assistant Minister, the roads that have been referred to in the reply--- It is a little bit worrying because the Assistant Minister acknowledges that the design was done 20 years ago. After the design was done 20 years back, the contract that was given of Kshs1.1 billion has been exhausted. Could the Assistant Minister, please, tell this House how much more the Ministry will spend on the unfinished job?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I appreciate the concerns by the hon. Member and wish to assure him that we will do everything possible. At this particular moment, I may not be able to certify the amount required to finish the road. But given time, I will be more than happy to give him that answer.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, while thanking the Assistant Minister for that positive reply, could he indicate to this House the amount of funds that have been allocated for the retendered project, and the action he is likely to take to make the three roads motorable?

As I have indicated in part “c” of the answer, we are in the process of compiling the cost of the remaining works, and, therefore, will retender it within this month. The process is ongoing, but I am not able to give the exact amount of money required. However, my Ministry will release funds to ensure that the road is maintained to a motorable level as we await the works to be completed.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think the Assistant Minister would still have to confirm the amount; the answer he has given, as I said earlier on, is worrying. If I read that part of the answer---

Order, Member for Kiharu! The Assistant Minister read the answer and we heard it. Interrogate him. If you are not satisfied, push the Assistant Minister to satisfy you.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, he says that the budgetary allocation is not adequate. In which ways would we be able to know that the budgetary allocation is not enough if he is not ready to say how much more they will spend over and above Kshs1.1 billion?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to shed more light on my answer. I want to clearly state to the hon. Member that upon commencement of works, several challenges were encountered which brought about the exhaustion of funds. The first challenge was inadequate design. Fresh design works and alignment had to be done; these cost quite some amount which was not initially envisaged. Secondly there was the presence of obstructions from water and power lines. Water and power lines had to be relocated on an emergency basis to avoid high delay claims. The total expenditure on reallocation and reinstatement was Kshs11 million against a contract provision of Kshs1 million. Thirdly were inadequate contract provisions. After re-design and appraisal of the contract documents, some missing bill items were identified and procured on variation orders. Also there was inadequate works quantities. Several bill items were found to be under quantified, and this led to quantity overrun in several bill items, especially on drainage, earthworks and guardrail quantities. Lastly were the physical issues and resettlement. The road alignment passes through hilly terrain, offering very little leeway in terms of realignment to avoid heavy earthworks. This resulted in an increase in the quantities to be filled. In view of the issues I have stated here, the cost of the project went up. I want to assure the hon. Member that we have now taken into account all the issues that I have stated here and a proper sum will be availed as we go to tender this month.

Hon. Members, we will take Statements which are ready and then after that, we will take requests for Statements. So are there Statements which are ready?

Jambo la nidhamu, Bw. Spika. Majuma mawili yaliyopita, kulikuwa na Swali niliuliza Wizara ya Kilimo. Mawasiliano kutoka kwa wenyekiti wako, yalikuwa ni kwamba Waziri atafute jibu kabambe baada ya majuma mawili. Swali lenyewe lilikuwa linahusika na bei ya mahindi na vile vile, hatua za Serikali za kufungua ghala la halmashauri ya nafaka ili mahindi yanunuliwe kwa wakulima. Mpaka sasa hatujapata taarifa yoyote. Vile vile mawasiliano kutoka kwa kiti chako yalikuwa ni kwamba, Kamati ya Bunge inayohusika na ukulima ilichunguze hili swala na kutoa taarifa hapa Bungeni, kuelezea hatua ambazo Serikali itachukua ili wakulima wapunguziwe gharama ya kukaa na mahindi kwa sababu, hivi sasa, hakuna soko. Nilipitia kwenye shamba lako juzi na nikagundua kwamba pia wewe unahangaika kama mkulima yeyote yule, kwa sababu wamekosa soko la mahindi yao. Ningependa taarifa kutoka kwako.

Order! Hiyo ilikuwa hoja ya nidhamu na sijui lilikuwa Swali nambari ngapi. Hilo Swali unazungumzia lilikuwa nambari ngapi?

Bw. Spika, daftari za Bunge zikipekuliwa, nafikiri litapatakina na pia nafikiri Waziri anaelewa kwa sababu alikuweko wakati taarifa ilipotolewa na Mwenyekiti.

Bw. Kutuny, Swali lilikuwa lako; utakosaje kujua nambari yake? Tutakusaidia lakini inafaa ujue nambari yake, haswa ukija kusimama hapa Bungeni, lazima uwe na habari kabla hujasimama.

Keti basi! Ninaona tutaangalia ratiba ya Bunge na tuone lilikuwa Swali nambari gani halafu tutaliwasilisha kwenye Orodha Jumanne wiki lijalo. Lakini hata kabla hilo halijafanyika, nataka Bunge lielewe kwamba Bw. Spika hahangaiki kwa vyovyote.

Ni kweli mimi ni mkulima huko Kitale na nimevuna mahindi lakini sijaanza kutafuta soko. Sina haraka!

Kwa Jambo la nidhamu Bw. Spika. Ingekuwa vyema kama ungemwelekeza Mwenyekiti wa Kamati ya Kilimo, kwa sababu analijua hili suala ili aweze kutupatia ripoti yake.

Tutaweza kufafanua hayo kutokana na maandishi ya Bunge ya kila siku. Tukishaelewa kufikia Jumanne, tutapeana mwelekeo. Sasa, subiri mpaka Jumanne, tutapeana mwelekeo. The Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, on 2nd November, 2010, Mr. Konchella, Member of Parliament for Kilgoris, rose on a point of order seeking a Ministerial Statement from my Ministry with regard to the invasion of veterinary laboratory sports club land. In the Statement, the hon. Member wanted to know the following:- (i) How the developers were able to use the police to invade the land despite the presence of the Administration Police (AP). (ii) The action that has been taken against the perpetrators of this heinous crime who destroyed public property with impunity. (iii) Why and how the police was used to defeat the cause of justice and the rule of law. (iv) He also wanted the names of the companies which had been allocated this land and their directors. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to respond as follows:

Order, hon. Members! Please lower the level of your consultations so that we can hear the Assistant Minister.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, on 30th October, 2010, there was a golf tournament at the club and a large crowd of players and caddies assembled early to start the tournament. As the tournament was about to start, the assembled crowd noticed a Mitsubishi Truck off-loading an excavator within the grounds. A spontaneous outrage broke out and it is reported that caddies surrounded the truck, Reg. No.KAN 681F and the excavator Reg. No. KBM 3206 and set them ablaze. During the skirmishes, Messrs. Kenneth Kimari and Jackson Ng’ang’a Gitere were injured and treated at Avenue Hospital. The irate mob proceeded to the home of one of the men accused of encroachment on the club land, a Mr. Mutuku Wambua and torched his four bed-roomed house. The club officials alerted Kabete Police Station officers and AP officers based at Kabete Veterinary Laboratory who quickly moved to the site and arrested six persons. Those who were arrested were identified as Justus Oloo Matu, Jackson Kunga Kalii, Peter Mwaura Mbugua, Ibrahim Muvuro Akumu, Kamau Kanyaihu and Godfrey Ng’ang’a. The six were arraigned before the Kibera Principal Magistrate’s court and charged with arson, contrary to Section 33(2) of the Penal Code and malicious damage to property, contrary to Section 33(9)(1) of the Penal Code vide Kabete Police Station, No.CR163/138/210 and Kibera Law Courts Criminal File No.4782/2010. They denied the charges and were given bonds of Kshs500, 000 and surety of the same amount. They are still in police custody as they could not raise the bonds. It is clear that the involvement of police from both the regular Kenya Police and the AP in this matter was purely for restoration of law and order. The police were not used to defeat the cause of justice as the suspects arrested were destroying private property, attacking and injuring innocent citizens and threatening the peace and tranquility that existed at that particular time. The area is still under regular patrol by both the AP and the Kenya Police to ensure that peace prevails. I wish to table the list of institutions and individuals who benefited from this piece of land. I have a long list of those who were allocated this piece of land.

Let us have clarifications beginning with the Member for Kilgoris!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, while I thank the Assistant Minister for that Statement, there are issues I want him to address. I am not satisfied with the action he has taken so far. I have not looked at the list he has tabled so that I can be able to---

Order, hon. Members! Member for Nakuru and Member for Makadara, what you are doing is not permitted by the Standing Orders. Just look at your Standing Orders again; you are not allowed to stand in the passage ways for anything longer than a few seconds. You are supposed to transit through those areas. Please, note that! Mr. Konchella, please, proceed!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, one issue I would like the Assistant Minister to address is Gazette Notice No.751 of 1963 which set aside the land in question to be utilized by the Director of Veterinary Services. I believe this Gazette Notice has not been revoked. Could he confirm, therefore, whether it has been revoked? If it has not been revoked, it means the people are there illegally. They acquired public property illegally. So far, the people who have been arrested and are languishing in remand unable to raise a bail of Kshs500,000 are a student of the university and two workers. Those people will never be able to raise that money. We asked the Assistant Minister earlier to consider allowing those people to go home while the matter is being pursued by the relevant people in authority. They are suffering, yet they were arrested four hours after the incident took place. The burning took place at 5.30 a.m. and the police were alerted by the club. They came four hours later, at 10.00 a.m. and arrested a member of the club who was showering. This was a diplomat from the United States of America (USA). He, however, had to be released because he is not a Kenyan. Why do we have these double standards where you release foreigners because you fear them and allow poor Kenyans to suffer yet they are innocent? Mr. Speaker, Sir, these are the issue I would like addressed---

Order, Member for Kilgoris! You must have heard my directions last week on what you do when you seek clarification. I think you have sought two clarifications and because you had the major interest in this matter I allowed that. Otherwise, you can only seek one clarification at a time. Anybody else interested? Assistant Minister, please, take notes!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have taken a quick look at this list which includes at least one Judge of the Court of Appeal. I have noticed that many of the allotees are limited liability companies. Could the Assistant Minister consider lifting the

Mr. Speaker, Sir, now that this land has been allocated to certain individuals against the interest of the community near this area, could the Assistant Minister consider revoking the title deeds so that the tension in the area is stemmed?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will start with the clarification sort by Mr. Konchella. Yes, it is true that there was a Gazette Notice of 1963 and I wish to table it here.

If you go through the Gazette Notice of 1963, it has given the areas which were demarcated for institutions. These include even Mlolongo. This land at Kabete Veterinary Laboratory was left as Government land. It was not among what was gazetted. The hon. Member can go ahead and peruse the Gazette Notice. Mr. Speaker, Sir, with regard to the release of the fellows who were arrested, the work of the police is to maintain law and order. First, where the skirmishes took place is a private land that belongs to somebody. It does not belong to the golfers. I even told my friend that the golfers had long applied for land and they were given an allotment letter in August 1995. To date, they have not paid for the legal fee that is required which is only Kshs2,500. I would urge the questioner to ask the golfers to contribute the Kshs2,500 in order for their title deed to be processed. There is no way I can release criminals. The police came in swiftly, arrested those who caused havoc and we took them to court. Ordinarily, that is the end of the work of the police. If there is anything else which the questioner wants me to do, then that belongs to the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs or the Attorney-General because it involves court cases. Mr. Speaker, Sir, with regard to Mr. Gitobu Imanyara’s question, the companies’ names are there, he can go and check the names of the directors from the Registrar of Companies. There is nothing being hidden there. On the issue raised by the Member for Lari, revoking of title deeds is beyond Ojode. That belongs to the Minister concerned with matters related to land. Thank you.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Assistant Minister has not come to the grip of the issue. The issue here is that club members are not able to develop---

Order, Member for Kilgoris! Let me assist you. Please, resume your seat!

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Just hold it, Member for Kisumu Town West! We are still with the Member for Kilgoris. Member for Kilgoris, you did seek certain clarifications, the Assistant Minister has responded perhaps the best way he could. If you are still not satisfied, will you please

Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you for that clarification. In fact, I was going to ask the Chair to allow this matter to go to the relevant Committee of the House because there is more than meets the eye. The Committee should carry out investigations so that we can do justice to this problem and the club and other Government agencies can utilize the land.

Order, hon. Members! With respect to the request by the Member for Kilgoris that this matter be referred to the Committee, the Speaker does not have to give those directions. The Committee concerned will know that this matter falls within its mandate and it is at liberty to commence inquiry at any time as it deems appropriate. I do not have to give any directions.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. There was a Public Investment Committee (PIC) which investigated the same parcel of land. It was in the PIC Report for 2004 headed by hon. Mwai Kibaki.

Order, Member for Kamukunji! Perhaps, that is just information given to the Minister and he does not seem to agree with it.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. For record purposes, by the year 2004, which the hon. Member is talking about, hon. Mwai Kibaki was the President of this country. Perhaps, he is talking about the Public Accounts Report of 1995/1996.

Correction, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Order, Member for Kamukunji! That is not the way you do it. Do you now want to withdraw your information as inaccurate?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I withdraw and stand corrected.

Very well! Leave it there! What is it, Member for Kigumo?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I heard the Minister say that the issue of revoking the title deeds is not under his domain. Given the theory of collective responsibility, could he undertake to liaise with the Minister for Lands, who is also in the House, with a view to having these titles revoked immediately?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not know which titles the questioner is talking about because some of them belong to Government institutions. I do not know whether he wants the Minister for Lands to revoke all the titles which were given to institutions. Could he be specific as to which titles he would want us to liaise with the Minister, for cancellation purposes?

Order! Hon. Ojode, given that the Minister for Lands is present in the House this afternoon and when I deferred this matter to today, we had indication that if need be, the Minister for Lands would be available to complement you on dealing with this matter, perhaps, he is prepared to give that response so that we clear this matter on whether or not he is prepared to revoke any titles at all, and if so, when he will do so.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, on my part, we need to fully interrogate every title from the moment it was allotted, registered and issued. If we find that, that title had no foundation at all, then we will proceed to revoke. But I cannot undertake to revoke before we have fully interrogated each and every title.

Member for Garsen, are you standing on a point of order?

Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

No, that is done already! Is there any other Ministerial Statement?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to request for a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs. I rise to ask for this Statement on a matter that for the last few days has been talked about by Kenyans and which Members of Parliament and the Minister concerned has been addressing through the Media. I think this matter should be rightfully addressed on the Floor of this House. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this pertains to the Report by the Interim Independent Boundaries Review Commission of Kenya (IIBRC) and the validity or otherwise of the Report that the Commission may have or intends to gazette. The Statement that I seek from the Minister ought to address itself to the following pertinent issues:- (a) The independence of that Commission as set out under Section 41(b) (8) of the former Constitution under which the Commission started to operate. (b) The tenure of the Commission as set out under Section 41(b) (11) of the former Constitution. (c) The delimitation of electoral units under Article 89(5) and (6) of the Constitution. (d) How the Commission will proceed under the Constitution in line with Sections 27 and 28 of the Sixth Schedule of the Constitution and whether or not the Commission has gazetted the boundaries. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in asking for this Statement, I am informed by the fact that information available indicates that the Commission has not been able to gazette its report because of instructions from the Head of Public Service to the Government Printer not to accept the report for publication. This is a matter that has captured this nation’s attention fully and we ought to ventilate on the Floor of the House so that peripheral issues surrounding this matter can be addressed fully and with finality on the Floor.

Very well! Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs, this is a very urgent matter as I have heard it. Deputy Leader of Government Business, you are here and must take responsibility. This is a very urgent matter and as much as possible, it must come tomorrow afternoon.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am informed that the Minister is not in the country, but hon. Orengo seems to have some information which I do not have. Let him share it with the House.

Hon. Orengo, do you have something on this?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I just know that the Minister is in the country, but I do not think he will be here tomorrow. He is on a Government assignment beginning tomorrow. So, if it is---

What Government assignment?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, he is on a Government assignment, the specifics of which I may not be able to reveal to the House. But I know that today he was making arrangements to leave tonight for Geneva on a Government assignment.

Order! Are you saying that the business of this House is not Government business?

No, Mr. Speaker, Sir. All that I am saying is that, if the Minister can be accommodated. If we say tomorrow then he will not be here. But in the spirit of collective responsibility, we could be given time to liaise with the Minister to find out when an adequate response can be made, because it is a very serious matter. Personally, I would want to hear what the Minister has to say on this matter. It is a matter which, if he was in the House, one would demand--- I have seen it before that if it is a matter of national importance, the Minister would not even be required to wait another day because of the urgency of the matter. But since he is not here and will not be here tomorrow, he should then be accommodated. Under the spirit of collective responsibility, we can discuss with the Deputy Leader of Government business and find out how we can get that issue dealt with at an appropriate time.

Deputy Leader of Government business, I am aware that the Minister has an Assistant Minister. Where is the Assistant Minister?

Dr. Kosgei): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I saw the Assistant Minister here in the House, a few minutes ago, but I am told that he stepped out. However, I am also told that the Minister is in the country and that he did not go to Geneva. Therefore, I will convey the information to him that the House wants to talk to him over this urgent matter, and that he should consider either availing himself or his Assistant Minister, tomorrow.

Deputy Leader of Government Business, I just want you to note that many times, this House has been reminded as to the definition of “a Minister” and that has been repeated from time to time. However, Assistant Ministers are also Ministers, which, indeed, is true, if you take the definition in the Standing Orders. So, if the Minister is away, but the Assistant Minister is here, we expect that the business of

Dr. Kosgei): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I could not agree with you more. Therefore, business will be transacted.

We will proceed and at 2.30 pm, tomorrow, that Statement will have to be delivered.

Dr. Kosgei): Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is accepted and it will be conveyed. WORKERS’ STRIKE OVER TEA PICKING MACHINES

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Last Thursday, I had requested for a Ministerial Statement from the Minister of Labour with regard to the strike in Kericho. You directed that the statement be delivered today. There was an undertaking from the Deputy Prime Minister and the Minister for Local Government that it would be delivered this afternoon. May we have some directions?

Where is the Minister for Labour? Mr. Deputy Prime Minister, you took responsibility last time.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, could I, for a second time, plead with the House, so that I make sure that the Minister for Labour issues this Statement on Thursday?

On Thursday at 2.30 pm?

Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir!

It is so directed, but he must come with an explanation as to why he was not here this afternoon.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have noticed with a lot of concern that Members of the Executive come to this House, but when they notice that an issue is coming up, that touches on their docket, they slowly slip out. I saw the Minister for Labour in this House. I also saw the Minister for Justice Constitution Affairs and National Cohesion. The matters here are very serious and very urgent. I seek your ruling on what kind of reprimand we can give the Executive so that they take this House seriously.

Order! I have already given directions on that matter. I will expect the Minister to be here tomorrow at 2.30 pm. If he will not be here, then we will cross that bridge tomorrow. You can also be certain that we will deal with the Minister appropriately depending on the circumstances. Before we move to the next order, I have this communication to make.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Thank you for that direction. I had wanted to raise this by way of letter, but I think now that you have raised that issue, I will raise it on the Floor. I do not know if this is the appropriate forum. As the Vice-Chair of the---

If it relates to this Communication, yes.

Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir. As the Vice-Chair of the Constitutional Implementation Oversight Committee, I would like to get the direction and guidance of the House as to where I should be getting information about the agenda, where and when the meetings are held. Today, there was a meeting of the Constitutional Implementation Oversight Committee. I had no knowledge of it. I had no communication of it. In fact, half of the Members of the Committee had no knowledge or information on it. Could I, please, get direction on where I am supposed to get that information as the Vice-Chair of the Committee?

As the Vice-Chair of the Oversight and Implementation Committee, that is a bit surprising. But information on meetings is always permanently available in Office of the Clerk and also in Room 8. So, there are two places where you will get that information from. It is available in the Office of the Clerk and you will also find it in Room No.8. You, as the Vice-Chair of the Committee, really, must be aware of meetings as a matter of course. So, maybe, there is a problem between the Office of the Clerk and the Committee.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Order, Member for Gichugu! I know this is a passionate matter. All communication is supposed to be made to the membership of the Oversight and Implementation Committee without exception. So, all Members, really, must be notified by all notices convening meetings by the Clerk’s Office. Henceforth, it will have to be done and I have that undertaking from the Clerk. He is actually surprised that there appears to have been a lapse.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am also a Member of that Committee. I heard about it in the car as I came. I was also not aware. I am hearing it for the first time. There are serious issues to resolved before any such step is taken. There is also the fear that the interpretation of the parties that are supposed to nominate is not agreed upon because it must not be made to mean parliamentary political parties. That is not the language in the Constitution. This is a thorny issue which had better get your direction lest we end up like the Interim Independent Boundaries Review Commission (IIBRC), which promised that it was going to use boundaries as bridges for cohesion and which has now bridged that---

Order, hon. Members! As I have indicated in my Communication away from the written script, the Office of the Clerk will ensure that all Members of the Oversight and Implementation Committee get notices convening all meetings without exception. Your notices will normally be posted in your pigeon holes, dutifully so, at the very latest two hours before any meeting is convened. With respect to the second matter raised by the Member for Gichugu, I have been careful in my Communication to refer to political parties represented in Parliament. I have not talked about parliamentary political parties. However, it is up to the membership, whose intelligence I have said in the past is well above average, to interpret the Communication as I made it. You may need further directions if there is default, and I will be available to make that interpretation. For the moment, I believe that I am clear in that Communication. Next Order!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, as this House is aware, on 31st August, 2010, the House debated the response by the hon. Attorney-General to a Question raised by hon. Karua relating to the mismanagement of funds by the Central Management Committee (CMC) and the management of the Harambee SACCO Limited. The Attorney-General’s response generated a lot of interest in the matter among the Members and reference to documents in the House over the subject matter. You directed the Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Co-operatives to inquire into the matter and make a report to the House. Of particular concern were letters tabled and related to the allegations.

Subsequent to your ruling, the Departmental Committee, during its sitting on Monday 20th September, 2010, resolved to invite witnesses to give evidence on the issues raised during the debate. The Committee received oral and written evidence from Monday, 27th September, 2010, to Monday 11th October, 2010, from witnesses involved in the matter. These witnessed included hon. Karua, about a dozen whistle blowers, the Director of the Criminal Investigations Department (CID), Mr. Muhuro, the Director of the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC), Mr. P.L.O. Lumumba, the Attorney- General, the directors and the management of Gina Din Communications SACCO Limited and the management of the Harambee SACCO. The Minister for Co-operative Development and his officials also gave evidence. The Committee first heard the nature of the complaints made by some members against the Harambee SACCO. They presented information relating to cases of mismanagement. Thereafter, the Committee utilized the information to gather evidence in its subsequent meetings with the management of Harambee SACCO, investigation and prosecuting agencies and the Ministry of Co-operative Development. After analyzing the evidence presented, the Committee was of the opinion that the allegations were perennial in nature and not new in the SACCO fraternity. The Committee observed that investigations had been done on the allegations, but lacked merit in law since the complainants failed to record statements which would allow the prosecution to be expeditiously instituted. We came across a very serious matter here where the complainants flatly refused to record statements with the Director, CID, on the subject in spite of the fact that they had perennially complained---

) Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Members are consulting fairly loudly. I request you to ask them to consult in low tones.

Order, hon. Members! The Member on the Floor requires to be heard. Please, consult in low tones.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Subsequently, the Attorney-General was totally handicapped in proceeding with the prosecutions against those thought to be culpable. I want to explain again that the 12 whistle blowers refused to record statements with the police. The Attorney-General, on request, could not constitute a charge sheet because he lacked evidence from the same whistle blowers. This was confirmed by the whistle blowers. More interestingly, some of the complainants whose letters raised these allegations and which were tabled in this House were found to have been members of the SACCO who had various challengers which I will come back to later on. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, at this very early opportunity I would like to state that the Committee found it grossly irregular that somebody by the name J. S. Lagat, whose identity was denied by both whistle blowers, the Criminal Investigation Department (CID) and the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC) found his way into the precincts of Parliament and placed “urgent” fliers in the pigeon holes used by hon. Members and this House was moved by the “ghost” Mr. Lagat, who until now, in spite of very spirited efforts by the Director of CID, cannot be traced and the police will have again to use miracles to identify who Mr. Lagat is. The big question is; How did Mr. Lagat, a mysterious man, find his way to the pigeon holes in front of the cameras and nobody can trace him to know who he was? Nevertheless, we gave all the benefits to Mr. Lagat’s comments and went ahead and investigated each and every 31 of the allegations that were contained in his letter. Despite these observations by the Committee, it still proceeded with the investigation. We discovered that Mr. Lagat, mysterious as he is, was able to cause the Chair to order this Committee to move with speed within two and three weeks and investigate this matter. We feel, as a Committee that we need to re-organize our information system so that in future--- I am speaking with a lot of information as the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Co-operatives that it is possible that such a letter could have even contained the anthrax virus which is fatal. We must have security in place so that hon. Members only open mail that is authorized by the Serjeant-At-Arms. I am glad that, on administrative complaints, these days they drop mail to our offices. I hope that the trend will be improved in future because we found that to be gross. The Committee made observations that on allegation of mismanagement, some of the employees were guilty of fraudulent actions and consequently they were discharged or dismissed. Some cases are still pending in court. Among the allegations which were brought here, is that there were death threats. We asked the Director of CID, Mr. Muhoro, and we thank him because we had him for over eight hours to counter-check again whether somebody had recorded statements or complaints in any police station with regard to death threats from Harambee SACCO officials. To the contrary, we found that there was only one complaint by a Mr. Malonza, that some members were threatening his life and not the other way around. That did not corroborate with what we heard in this House that people had died and the police had failed to prosecute.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Once the Chairman has said that most of the whistleblowers are in court over misappropriation, he is under obligation to substantiate, lest he character assassinates, which he had warned himself against. So, could he substantiate or withdraw that remark?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if I said “all of them”, I withdraw the words “all of them”; but some of them are, indeed, in court. I think in modern democracy, we need to respect whistleblowers, because they try to highlight what they feel is wrong in that particular Sacco. Whistleblowers against us, Ministers, the Speaker or anybody should be encouraged, particularly when they identify themselves. So, I am declining to name them because that would amount to something not very good to be picked by the Press; I do not really feel comfortable doing that. So, I beg to continue. I have already covered the issue of death threats. I said that we asked a direct question to the Director of the CID, Mr. Muhoro; it is in the HANSARD and also in our minutes. Nowhere in the whole Republic we have anybody who has recorded a statement claiming that he was under threat. There was the alleged fraudulent purchase of Class A shares of Co-operative Bank Holdings worth Kshs19.95 million by Gina Din Corporate Communications Sacco. The Committee observed that the transaction was clean. In our evidence, we found out that the Minister for Co-operative Development and Marketing is, indeed, a small shareholder in Gina Din SACCO, which is based in Nairobi, and the transaction on Class A shares was reserved as a transaction between co- operative societies, which are themselves shareholders in Co-operative Bank of Kenya.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to second that this Report be adopted by the House. By seconding, I want first to thank the entire membership of the Departmental Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Co-operatives

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the Committee’s Report with a few reservations which I will mention. I did ask three questions in this Parliament; one directed to the Attorney-General, one to the Minister in charge of internal security and another to the Minister for Cooperative Development and Marketing. All the questions were relating to issues surrounding Harambee SACCO. It was a Question to the Attorney-General and the police that caused this matter to be referred to the Committee. I must say that the Question that I had asked the Minister initially was resolved by the Minister agreeing to see the complainants in his office, listening to them and promising that the regulator who was being put in place at that time would be able to sort out the problems of the SACCO. I want to say, therefore, from the outset that the gentlemen who gave me the material from which I asked the Question are not anonymous people. They are people who were even able to go and sit in the Minister’s office. They are members of the SACCO who at one time or another, have been barred from participating in the general meetings of the SACCO by the current management who are unhappy with their raising issues. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I must say that the Minister was helpful but we are still waiting for the regulator to sort out the problems of this SACCO. The Committee has also been helpful but there is the limitation that a Parliamentary Committee cannot play the role of the investigators of crime. That is the role of the Criminal Investigation Department (CID) or the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC). This matter brings to fore the limitations of Parliamentary Committees. During the same time that the Speaker referred this matter to the Committee, the Attorney-General did indicate that he had directed the KACC to investigate the matter and call for a forensic audit. That ought to have settled the matter but because of the letter of the anonymous Mr. Lagat, the Speaker referred the matter to the Committee. May I say from the outset that the questions that I had raised in this Parliament were never about the Minister for Co-operative Development and Marketing. Those who asked me to raise the questions had no issue with the Minister. Therefore, it is somewhat unfortunate that the focus of the Report has been allegations that have been unsubstantiated which were

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to also support this Report that has been presented by the able Committee that was given the assignment some two or three months ago. It has been a difficult time for me to have been accused by a person who turns out to be non-existent and to have been in the newspapers basically to be called corrupt. So, to see this come to an end, I am very grateful. I just hope that it would be possible in future for things to move a little faster, so that those unfairly accused are able to clear their names as soon as possible. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is my hope that we will study what other parliaments do in situations like this when at a time as now when there is so much going on, a Mr. Langat, who is non-existent, miraculously got his documents into the pigeon holes of every Member of Parliament. He also found his way to every newsroom, to the Officer of the President and the Office of the Prime Minister. I am sure there are very powerful systems which can assist this Parliament in the new dispensation to investigate this kind of thing. Personally, I am grateful that I can sleep soundly tonight. For almost three months, I have not been able to sleep. Harambee SACCO is a very important institution. It plays a very important role in this country. As the Minister in charge, I can confirm that with 12,000 co-operatives, there are bound to be problems. It is not possible for us to run them perfectly. In the 1990s, there was no control of any kind. There were almost no laws governing these co-operatives. However, in the last few years, the Government has attempted to try and improve governance. So, I wish to confirm that we are not perfect and that we have 12,000 co-operatives. Those who lose in the elections will always try to fight back just as hon. Members of Parliament do when they lose elections. We know the problems we face from those who lose elections. So, it is a similar situation. I am hoping we can encourage co-operatives run their businesses smoothly. If there are problems, please, alert us. We, as Parliament, will try to work with them because we want to have a clean structure in the sector. However, let us not in the process destroy them. There have been rumours about others which have been investigated in a similar manner. I would appreciate and hope that we can go through this in a programmed manner. I am quite happy to come to Parliament as often as possible. However, 12,000 SACCOS are very many and will keep this House preoccupied with nothing else, but co- operatives. We will not even have time for any other business. We need to encourage them and not to kill them. I know that the management of the Harambee SACCO has gone through a very rough time for almost over a decade. Therefore, I fully support them. I have talked to them and we are in agreement that a forensic report would make sense so as to conclude this issue once and for all. There is no need of going on forever with this issue. A time comes when we must say enough is enough, even if there any other things being mentioned here and there. I would like us to support the recommendation by the SACCO Societies Regulatory Authority (SASRA). I would like also to see all the other regulatory

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I also rise to very strongly support this report that has been submitted to this House. On the onset, let me thank the Chairman for the manner in which he has presented this Report to the House. I also extend the same appreciation to the membership of the Committee who really assisted the Chairman to generate this Report. In addition, I wish to thank all the people who assisted in the formation of this Report. For instance, I wish to thank the Director of the CID and the Director of KACC and the Minster for Co-operatives and Marketing. Without whose contributions, this Report would not have been complete. I note with some excitement that the agony the Minister underwent during that critical period has been cleansed through this investigation. He is now enabled to continue enjoying his integrity and dignity which he suffered then. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me also thank the entire Committee for the commitment and sacrifice they have shown in investigating the 31 allegations they were mandated to look into. One of the allegations that came to their attention was the alleged misappropriation of Kshs724 million. To my delight, it is only Kshs23 million that has been found to have been misappropriated. This Kshs23 million should not be allowed to disappear without a thorough investigation into why it has disappeared. This is money that has been contributed by very innocent small contributors. Therefore, a thorough investigation must be executed to unearth the culprits who have misappropriated this money. The contributors of this SACCO enjoy their right by getting small loans to educate their sons and daughters and even to put up some houses. Therefore, the loss of this Kshs23 million must be investigated thoroughly and the culprits arrested and prosecuted. We want this giant SACCO, which is the biggest in the African Continent, to be a role model in our country. For it to be a model society, its transparent and accountable systems must be set right. I have noted that SACCOs have played a pivotal role in enhancing the quality of lives for our people, but it is still fresh in our memories that recently, we had the pyramid schemes, which were being executed by mischievous characters in our society. As a result, people have lost their lives, livelihoods and even committed suicide. I am calling upon the Minister to execute his responsibility, in the

Mr. Mututho, there appears to be no one willing to contribute. So, you may reply.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want to thank the Members who have contributed. I also want to clear the fears that, indeed, all figures were not checked. All the figures were checked and the amount in question is Kshs4 million. As for the mysterious Langat, I am gratified to note that already, Parliament is delivering letters to the Members’ own offices and not in the pigeon holes as, perhaps, it studies the system to see how it can enhance security within Parliament. That notwithstanding, we will still be looking forward to somebody being prosecuted for illegal entry alongside those people who may have destroyed documents at Harambee SACCO. Criminal activities within and without us need to be addressed at that level. The pyramid schemes fall within the purview of this Committee. We may not require excess permission from you to deal with this issue. May I take this opportunity to ask the Minister to co-operate with this Committee, although the Standing Orders do not allow us to summon him through the newspapers. We are already on it, so that the Members can know the truth. We need to know this person who has made so many widows commit suicide, grasped billions of shillings from savers, came up with a scheme that he thinks is water-tight and has stolen people’s money. While thanking the House again for its patience, I am hoping that during the coming Supplementary Budget, the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance will wake up to the reality that people’s funds need to be safeguarded. On an issue like this, I would like to assure the Minister and, indeed, the Executive that we, as oversight Committees, are not in witch-hunting business. We are responding to the people’s

Is Mr. Kaino not in the House? He is not in the House. I will defer the Motion to such time as it will be allocated by the relevant Committee.

Hon. Members, that concludes the business on the Order Paper. Therefore, the House stands adjourned until tomorrow, 17th November, 2010, at 9.00 a.m. The House rose at 5.35 p.m.