Order, hon. Members! There is supposed to be a Communication at this point, but I am not certain as to whether or not our visitors are already in the gallery. I am told they are not yet there. We have a delegation visiting from the Republic of Botswana and it appears they have not arrived as yet. We will recognize them as and when they are in the House.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek your indulgence with regard to the matter that was brought before the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade on the nomination process and the nominee whose name was presented before us. I would like to request that you grant us an extension of time up to Tuesday, next week. We have heard from a number of witnesses and so we have gathered a lot of evidence. We are now in the process of writing the Report. We believe that in order to serve the best interest of this country, we need to do a good job. In order to do that, we want to take advantage of the weekend. We want to retreat to go and do a thorough job so that we Table our Report on Tuesday.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise on the same matter of nominations to four constitutional offices. You referred the matter to the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade and the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs. The Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs has had occasion to start prosecuting this matter from the time you referred it to us. We have endeavoured to fulfil the mandate of the Committee and execute that task which the Committee appreciates fully as a matter of critical national importance. Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have worked round the clock. Yesterday, the Committee sat the whole day without a single break. We worked from 9.00 a.m. to about 8.00 p.m. in an attempt to beat today’s deadline. The Committee appreciates the urgency of this matter. It understands the eagerness of this House, the Chair, and the nation at large to receive this Report. However, the Committee also believes that, that urgency notwithstanding, the

Hon. Members, I have heard the presentations, if not, pleas, by the two Chairmen of the respective Departmental Committees on behalf of the larger membership of those Committees. Whereas I appreciate the public interest in this matter and the anxiety to hear what the findings of the two Committees are, I am satisfied that the Committees have made out a case for extension of time on the ground that contrary to the expectations, they have been overwhelmed by the number of witnesses who have turned up prepared to make submissions and give evidence before them. Indeed, a number of documents have also been tendered before the Committees. Therefore, it is necessary that we accord these Committees more time, at least, until Tuesday next week at 2.30 p.m. Please, the two of you, hon. Okemo and hon. Namwamba, note that this matter still remains very urgent and that the whole country is holding its breath as to the outcome of the work of the two Committees. You should try and expedite your inquiry, investigations and recommendations as you will make. In the meantime, on behalf of the membership of the House, I want to thank your two Committees for the commitment that you have demonstrated towards this assignment. I am aware that you have had to sit late into the night and that, perhaps, contrary to what some sections of Kenyans would have wanted to believe, you work much longer hours than just the four hours Kenyans believe you sit in this House. In fact, I am reliably informed that those journalists who were covering your proceedings yesterday tired at some point and left you to continue working.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Information and Communications the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Could the Minister indicate the amount of taxes paid by the four major mobile companies/operators over the last five years and state how much money in taxes the Government is losing due to the current “price wars”? (b) What action is the Government taking to protect the 750,000 local shareholders and erosion of the value of Government shareholding in Safaricom Limited from the imminent decline due to the “price wars”? (c) What measures is the Minister taking to ensure that Safaricom does not outsource activities such as customer care, IT and network management, which will result in over 1,500 Kenyans being retrenched?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise not to answer this Question, but to seek your advice and ruling. This Question was forwarded to my Ministry the day before yesterday. As we attempted to get appropriate answers to the Question, we realized that it was touching on matters of taxes. We are all aware that matters pertaining to taxes and revenue are handled by the Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA) which is a parastatal under the Ministry of Finance and not my Ministry. Mr. Speaker, Sir, part (b) of the Question touches on the shareholding and investments of a company. I believe that my Ministry is not competent enough to tackle this Question. I suggest that this Question should be tackled by the Minister for Finance. There are some aspects in the Question that my Ministry could be able to respond to, for example, the issue of price wars between the service provider companies and part (c) of the Question. We thought that instead of answering the Question halfway or bits of it, you either rule that this Question be redirected to the Office of the Prime Minister because it has issues that cut across two Ministries, that is, my Ministry and the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Ministry of Finance. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I seek your guidance.

What is it, hon. Member for Yatta?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am surprised that this Question was forwarded to the Ministry of Information and Communications. I had requested for this Question to be sent to the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Ministry of Finance for very obvious reasons. One of the reasons is the issue of price wars. There is a difference of opinion between the Permanent Secretary and the Minister himself. The shareholders are of the opinion that they can never get justice from the Ministry of Information and Communications. It is for that reason that I thought it necessary that this Question be taken to a Ministry which is not controversial as far as the issue of price wars is concerned. I still insist that the Question be taken to the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Ministry of Finance or the Prime Minister’s Office.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to vehemently deny the allegations that have been made by the hon. Member that there is some squabbling between the Minister for Information and Communications and the Permanent Secretary. I have clearly stated the reasons why I think my Ministry is not competent enough to answer this Question. For the hon. Member to allege that there are some squabbles in my Ministry is misleading and so he must be made to withdraw and apologize.

Order, hon. Member for Yatta! Please, relax! You are actually imputing improper motive on the part of the Minister as against his Permanent Secretary. So, if you are able to substantiate that matter, yes, then it can rest. If you are not, I am afraid you will have to withdraw and apologize.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, what I said is the difference of opinion in as far as price wars are concerned. I have personally----

Order! Order! Order! Resume your seat! We do not want to spill out this matter unnecessarily. You did not say that there was squabbling between the Minister and this Permanent Secretary. You did not say that?

No, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Mr. Assistant Minister, you have raised a false alarm. So, let us leave it there; let it rest where it is. Order, hon. Members! Taking into account the sentiments expressed by the Assistant Minister and the complement by the hon. Member for Yatta, I will direct that this Question be sent to the Office of the Prime Minister so that the Prime Minister will answer it or delegate it to whichever Ministry he will consider appropriate to answer it. I say so because it is the constitutional responsibility of the Office of the Prime Minister to supervise and co-ordinate Ministries. So, it is the right place for this Question to go.

asked the Minister for Landsá (a) whether he could state the original total acreage of LR 164/4/R, belonging to the Kenya Agricultural Research Institute (KARI) Potato Research Centre at Tigoni and indicate the acreage of land currently available for research work; (b) whether he could provide the names of the beneficiaries, if any, of the land that was sub-divided; and, (c) what steps will he take to ensure that all the illegally acquired land belonging to the centre is returned for the benefit of the potato growers and all other stakeholders who benefit from potato research.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) The original total acreage of LR 164/4/R, belonging to the Kenya Agricultural Research Institute (KARI) in Tigoni was 228 acres. About 163 acres were excised leaving a balance of 65 acres. (b) The beneficiaries of the sub-divided land are as follows:-

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Assistant Minister, first of all, for putting a restriction and being able to bring the answer to my Question in the way I would have liked it to be but granted that I have since seen a Kenya Gazette after asking the Question, which was published on 26th of November, 2010. How long are you going to take so that these titles revert to the rightful owner, who is KARI?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to inform the hon. Member that, yes, it has taken some time, but with this current position now, we are actually giving 45 days when he will actually get a Kenya Gazette Notice telling him that the land has now reverted back to its original usage. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to congratulate the Ministry for the good work they are doing in addressing the issue of grabbed public land. However, at this point, Kenyans must know that this Question raises a fundamental issue on the sanctity of a title deed. To the extent that I have looked at the list of the titles that he has given and one of the people affected is a former honorable Member of this House. I have documents here showing that this honorable Member who has lost the property got that property from another honorable Member of the House who is here now. This hon. Member who is here now got it from another businessman, and that businessman got it from another one; and that one got it from the former honorable Julius Gikonyo Kiano. Hon. Julius Gikonyo Kiano was allocated this land in 1973. So, five people have changed title deeds up to the one whose property is now being taken away. Given that this particular property that I am trying to interrogate was not one of those properties that were identified under the Ndung’u Commission on unjustifiably acquired land, how far is this Assistant Minister going to go? Is he going to sweep all title deeds or has he a particular limit, because even in the Ndung’u Commission, they put a limit of up to 1992? But here is an Assistant Minister who is now revoking a title of a land that was allocated in 1973!

Very well. Mr. Assistant Minister?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the history of land is well known in this country. The reason why I have said it will take us about 45 days is because we want actually to direct our efforts to the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC) so that they can take up this matter. They will, up to a certain extent, advise who is actually supposed to go to court and who is supposed to do what so that, at least, the land reverts back to the public. That is my main concern. But in view of the history which has been given out, I think the KACC will be in a position to advise all those persons affected as to what they are supposed to do.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am sorry I took long to build my question, and which he has not answered. My question was, how far back is he going to go? I want to table the agreement between hon. Kuria Kanyingi and hon. Cyrus Jirongo here which shows that Julius Gikonyo Kiano was given this land in 1973 by the late His Excellency President Kenyatta!

Very well, your point is made! Proceed, Mr. Assistant Minister!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the issue of the agreement to me would be immaterial because my concern is that whoever feels aggrieved by the action that my Ministry is going to take has a duty to go to court. That is my position.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the case of KARI land which had been set aside for public interest of research----. I can confirm that for the greater Kiambu zone, it is from this research that seeds are meant to be developed and which should be utilized by farmers, but as a result of this allocation to personal interest, there is even no adequate land for any further research to be carried out. Can the Ministry confirm that it is going to revert these parcels of lands to public interest at whatever cost? These private interests must pave way for the greater public interest.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have made my position very clear; a decision has already been made. We are actually communicating with the KACC, so that, at least, the land reverts back to its original use.

On a point of order, Speaker, Sir. It is only fair that I bring to the attention of the Chair that yesterday when this Question was deferred, the Minister for Lands did not declare his interest in this matter. He had only informed you that they had agreed with the Assistant Minister to come and answer.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I say so, because the Minister for Lands was the lawyer for Courier Green. His advice to them is contrary to what the Assistant Minister has said here. So, is he in order, first to mislead the Chair on the reason why he was not able to answer the Question yesterday? Is he in order not to declare his interest in the matter?

Order! The first two are valid points of order. The last one, I am afraid is not.

I stand guided, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Minister was right yesterday when he said the answer was with me and I came late when the Question had already been asked. It is true that it was me who had the answer to this Question. That is why I answered this particular Question.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is really a tragedy today because we have been told some people acquired the Potatoe Research Station (PRS). I want to declare that I used to work in the Ministry of Agriculture. The PRS was the only research station that did research on potatoes diseases. The current shortage of potatoes is because we have no research station that is screening and releasing good potatoes. How long will it take for them to repossess this land, so that consumers do not continue facing a problem in terms of the availability of potatoes because of lack of land to research and produce good potatoes?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have already answered that question. I said give me 45 days from today and we will get the results. We will actually get this land back to the Kenya Agricultural Research Institute (KARI).

Mr. Speaker, Sir, you can see the interest the Question has generated. I would want the Assistant Minister to tell us, in black and white, these factors you are considering in revoking title deeds that have changed hands, probably, three, four, five or six times?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, since the powers are not bestowed on the Minister, as I said, we have actually communicated with the KACC. They will advise the parties which way to go. One of the remedies is to go to court. However, on this particular matter, I have actually indicated to the House that within 45 days, the land will revert back to its original use.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. You heard the Assistant Minister say he needs 25 days and yet, he will consult the KACC. Is he in order to mislead the House that he has the ability to get the land back and yet he is seeking advice from the KACC?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I said within 45 days that land will revert back to its original use. My colleague was not act actually in the House when I said I need 45 days. I want to correct him; it is 45 days and not 25 days. That is enough time for us.

This matter has taken some time. In fact, I think the hon. Member had indicated that it has actually taken about one and half years. With the new constitutional dispensation, we have actually communicated with the KACC and within 45 days, the result will be seen.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Assistant Minister in order to criminalise each and every transaction entailed in that land, notwithstanding the fact that they have been adequate informed that several people purchased that particular land?

Order! What do you mean by “criminalise”.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, by invoking the KACC, it shows that all these transactions are subject to criminal investigation by the KACC under Dr. Lumumba.

Mr. Assistant Minister, you may respond to that as best as you can.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the land was initially public. How it went into private people’s hands is an issue for the KACC to investigate in order to clear up the matter. I do not see why we are talking about criminalization of this matter. We are actually trying to save the situation so that the land reverts back to its original use.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise on a point of order to insist that the Assistant Minister should declare his interest because I have here a copy of the Kenya Gazette Notice. It shows several title deeds. One of the title deeds is the one in the question that I raised. The others, while he was the lawyer for Mr. Kuria Kanyingi, he advised him to surrender them voluntarily, which he did. But this one, the same Assistant Minister told him not to surrender it. After he was appointed the Assistant Minister for Lands, he then revoked the title deed. So, could he declare his interest?

Mr. Assistant Minister, could declare your interest in this matter? I think it is an easy matter to deal with.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, if any argument was prepared, it was not by hon. Samuel Gonzi Rai, as Assistant Minister for Lands. Maybe, it is another Minister for Lands, but not the one answering this particular question.

Order! Order! I think the Assistant Minister has done very well.

Next Question, Member for Maragua!

asked the Minister for Lands:- (a) whether he is aware that land parcel Nos. Loc.17/Sabasaba/1378 and Loc.17/ Sabasaba/1379, which were registered under Trust Land Board upto 6/04/09, have been illegally acquired and registered in the names of individuals,

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) I am aware that land parcel No. Loc.17/ Sabasaba/1378 and Loc.17/Sabasaba/1379, which were registered under Trust Land Board up to 6/04/09 have been illegally acquired and registered in the names of individuals on diverse dates. (b) The said parcels are registered in the names of: Dennis Kimeru Gachoka - Parcel No. Loc.17/Sabasaba/1378, Moses Mwangi Ndungu - Parcel No. Loc.17/Sabasaba/1379. The transfers to the aforementioned individuals were fraudulently done as no transfer documents were executed in their favour. (c) A restriction was placed against the title deed prohibiting any dealings in anticipation of reverting the land back to public use

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Assistant Minister for, at least, conceding that public land was passed on to private individuals. I also want to thank him for appearing to have taken some precaution to ensure that the same is reverted back to the public. In his answer, he has said that some individuals who still possess that land – which is not theirs - are transferring it to innocent third parties. Could he confirm to me how long he will take to ensure that the transfer is cancelled once and for all? That is because the culprits can transfer it to third parties.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, my communication with the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC) on this particular matter is--- I believe that within six days, we will finalise this matter and the land will be reverted back to its original use.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, land grabbing has been rampant in this country. He has said that he has referred that matter to the KACC. Is he aware that presently, in his Ministry, that practice is still going on? For example, today, there is a heightened push to divide the former colonial villages and dish out the plots to various individuals. What is he doing to ensure that, that practice for which he is taking people to KACC, does not continue in his Ministry? That is because that practice is continuing in his Ministry.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is a totally different Question and if my attention is drawn to it, I will revisit the issue and see the way forward.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the history of Trust Land in our country is very sad. Before Kenya was colonized by Britain, no land was ever registered. When Kenya was colonized, land was registered as Trust Land and the whole concept of Trust Land was for the Government to look after the land in trust for the people. But even after Independence, the Government has misused that trust by evicting people on whose behalf it is holding the land without compensation. So, my question is this: Why did the Ministry invoke the Trust Lands Act to evict people of Kanoo, Kajulu and Nyakwari in Kisumu without compensation?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I invite my colleague to put up a Question and I will go through my documents in the Ministry and then give him an appropriate answer.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, finally, I want to inform the Assistant Minister that he has given the identities of the people who are involved. Some of them are councilors.

Mr. Mbau, do you have a basis to say that those councilors whom you have named grabbed that land?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister was able to identify the persons who have possessed that land. Before then, I could not stand and say that the land is possessed by councilors. But now, the names are those of the councilors.

Mr. Rai, is that so?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, as to whether they are councilors or not--- I believe they are just Kenyans because, in my records, they are known as Denis Kimeru Gachoka and Moses Mwangi Ndungu. Since I do not come from that particular area, it might be difficult for me to say whether they are councilors or not. But be that as it may, with the new Constitution, I believe that once we start putting the necessary laws into place, something will happen to all those people who have grabbed public utility land.

asked the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance:- (a) whether he is aware that commercial banks are taking deposits at less than 2% and lending at over 12 per cent; (b) whether he is further aware the practice is discouraging both depositors and borrowers and hence hampering economic development and, if so, what measures the Government will take to ensure that the above situation is rectified; and, (c) whether he could also explain why efforts by the Central Bank of Kenya (CBK) to persuade commercial banks to reduce their lending rates has not been successful.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I had answered the whole of this Question yesterday and it is pretty lengthy. The only thing is that he did not have a written copy of the answer. I wonder whether you would want me to answer the whole lengthy Question again for the sake of the House.

Order! You do not need to repeat the full answer! Mr. Kombo, ask a supplementary question!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, of course, I was surprised that the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Ministry of Local Government is answering on behalf of the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance. Is he on his way there?

That was on a light note! In his answer which I have now read through, I am glad that he has recognized that the spread is very large. But he talks about cheap deposits that come into the banks. He does not tell us where those cheap deposits are. For the economic growth that he has talked about to be spurred even further, small entrepreneurs are needed. With this large spread, how will he encourage small entrepreneurs to borrow from the banks so that the economy can grow? Do you want to say the rich can borrow but the poor cannot?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, as you may realize, in fact, I have to delegate one of the Ministry of Finance Questions because I had very many today. I am not here as the Minister for Finance as yet, but I can see that there are signs---

Order, Mr. Nguyai! You are answering as a Minister. You need not dwell on side shows!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it was also on a light note. Normally, the spread of interest rates depends on the duration of time that the deposits or savings are made. If you look at what I would not necessarily call cheap deposits---. I mean deposits that come in on a day and go out in probably less than three months. Obviously, they are more expensive to the bank and they would not attract a higher interest rate. If you look at the ones that have a wider spread, you can find that the ones that are over three months, the margin between the savings and the deposits reduce to something like only 4 per cent. So, what we are trying to do in order to ensure that we are able to encourage more and more people to save and access banking facilities at a cheaper rate is to try and encourage banks to become much more efficient in delivering services and, as such, they will reduce the costs of banking services and then provide better interests.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wanted to bring to the attention of the Assistant Minister that the real question here is why is it that the cost of money is so expensive when you are dealing with individuals? I would like to lay on the Table the survey on bank charges and lending rates that was carried out by the Central Bank of Kenya. I just want the Assistant Minister to tell us in terms of reducing the cost of loans to individuals, what is the difficulty the Government is facing in standardizing those costs? If you look at this, there is a tabulation there on interest that is incurred on a loan of Kshs50,000 by various banks. Some of those banks will charge you facility fee, processing fees, early repayment fees, registration fees, valuation fees, insurance fees, appraisal fees, legal fees and all those fees that end up making the loan even more expensive than the interest itself. What is the Government doing to standardize and reduce the costs that affect an individual who comes to borrow money?

Order! Member for Garsen, you know it is Question Time. Leave it where you are, because you have already asked the question. You have asked the Assistant Minister what they are doing to standardize the borrowing and lending rates.

Yes, and going with that---

No, you cannot go with that. You have asked a question, so let the Assistant Minister answer.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, one of the reasons why small loans are more expensive than others is because of the risk factors that we have when it comes to assessing the small loans. What we have tried to do so far is to get shared information by creating information systems through the credit reference bureau. I think it will be very difficult as of now to assess the ability of certain individuals on how they can access loans. However, I think with time we should come up with good legislation that allows us to share information on this issue.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is a very fundamental Question because you must have seen at the end of every year the banks announce supernormal profits in a very weak economy like Kenya. This Ministry, surprisingly, is excited with this answer by saying that there is tremendous growth realized. However, they fail to realize that what is happening in the industry is stifling growth. We are not realizing even half of the potential. Could the Assistant Minister now tell us what percentage of the loans have turned out to be bad debts to prove the fact that the risks are high?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, yes, banks have been making a tremendous amount of profits as, probably, other businesses in this country. I might be quick to first point out that the big amounts of profits are realized from the well-performing loans that are normally borrowed by large corporations that do business with these banks. I do not have the specific tabulation of what percentage of loans are not performing. However, I can easily say that a majority of the non-performing loans come from individuals. The mechanism that we need to put in place is how we can fairly assess individuals and reduce the risk.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This Question is very key to Kenyans. You heard the Assistant Minister say, in the first instance that because of the risks involved, that is why the interest rate for loans is very high and now he does not even have the figure. Would I be in order to request that this Question be deferred, so that he can actually substantiate that issue of non-performing loans?

Order, Member for Isiolo South! The Assistant Minister did assert that he did not anticipate that a question would be raised on proportionality of bad debts in percentages. I think he is entitled to that. What you can do is follow up on the matter with him because he says he is able to furnish you with facts and figures. He has that information.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, in view of the fact that persuading the banks has not yielded any results; the banks seem to have ignored the Central Bank of Kenya (CBK) completely. So that we do not bring back the Donde Bill, that is the in duplum rule, what is he planning to do? He should set the ceilings through the CBK and ensure the penalties for not keeping up the ceilings are very high for the commercial banks to do what the CBK is saying.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the new dispensation, in effect, will bring a better business environment and more efficient services. This will bring down the cost of doing business. We must realize that we are in a free market economy. We are trying to adopt the most competitive and efficient ways of doing business. As such, it is the new monetary policies and laws contained in the Constitution that will make this a better country.

asked the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance:- (a) what he is doing to ensure that District Education Officers (DEOs) are equipped with vehicles for use in their monitoring and supervision of projects funded under the Economic Stimulus Package; (b) what modalities are in place to ensure close supervision of projects under the Economic Stimulus package in view of the Kshs8 billion allocated to the Ministry; and, (c) whether he could confirm that the Ministry of Education requested for Kshs416 million in the 2010/2011 Financial Year for the purchase of 114 vehicles for supervision and monitoring of projects and, if so, whether he could consider allocating funds in the next Supplementary Budget.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) The Ministry of Finance allocated Kshs20 million to the Ministry of Education to enable the officers to monitor projects under the Economic Stimulus Programme (ESP) that is Centres of Excellence and Primary Schools. An additional Kshs47 million was released to the Ministry of Education for ESP training. (b) The Ministry of Education and Ministry of Public Works have undertaken the following measures to ensure quality of construction and timely completion of the projects: 1. All schools must have valid procedurally appointed District Infrastructure Committees (DICs) and School Infrastructure Committees (SICs) for supervising and monitoring the projects. 2. The Ministry of Public Works through the District Works Officer also supervises the projects. 3. The Ministry of Education has carried out capacity building programmes to DICs and SICs on their roles and responsibilities in supervising and monitoring these projects. 4. The Ministry has recruited consultants to supervise the construction of projects to ensure quality. 5. We also have School Management Committees and Boards of Governors that are making payments to contractors based on certificates issued by professional consultants. 6. In the meantime, the Ministry is obtaining updated reports on the progress and challenges of the projects through the District Education Officers. 7. Any complaints from the stakeholders on the projects are addressed immediately by sending a fact-finding mission to the ground.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, you did hear the Assistant Minister say that they set aside Kshs20 million to be used to assist in the monitoring of the progress of these projects on the ground. The client is the District Education Officer (DEO) on behalf of the Ministry of Education. The fact is that the DEO is not able to physically inspect these projects on the ground. Why would the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance find it difficult to ensure that Kshs8 billion is properly supervised by allocating Kshs416 million?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we allocated Kshs20 million to supervise the effective monitoring of ESP projects through the Ministry of Education. Just as I had explained, we were unable to provide any additional funding but we have requested the Ministry of Education, through this House, to ensure that they make that requisition and it will be considered in due time.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. You heard the Assistant Minister say that they have allocated Kshs20 million for transport. That translates to Kshs390,000 per county or approximately Kshs100,000 per constituency. What type of transport would that be?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, you will realize that this is for the Projects Monitoring and Evaluation. It is not a daily expense. It is for ad hoc visits, when need arises, to ensure that supervision is done.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the ESP projects have been well received by the people of Kenya and especially by parents. I would like to ask the Assistant Minister; what plans does he have, since they are very good at cutting the Ministry’s budgets, to ensure that there will be enough money to equip and staff those schools, so that the public can benefit from the same?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are working in close consultations with the Ministry of Education to ensure that the ESP projects are not white elephants, but instead, become successful. We are now looking at the full requirements of particular centers to be put in place. Once we see the requirements, we will see what budgetary provisions we will make.

Mr. Assistant Minister, what will you do to ensure that the unfinished ESP projects are completed by the end of the next financial year?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. As I had said before, we are consulting with all Ministries that have been implementing the ESP projects to see what additional requirements are needed so that they become successful and fruitful.

asked the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance:- (a) how much money the Government has saved as a result of the austerity measures on the cost of transport for public officers outlined by the Minister in his 2009/2010 Budget Speech, and whether he could provide a per-Ministry transport cost comparison for 2008/2009 and 2009/2010; (b) how many motor vehicles were sold, how much was realized and how the funds were utilized; and, (c) whether he could state the number of non-fuel guzzler vehicles purchased and the cost.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) The Government saved Kshs846,355,639 in the Financial Year 2009/2010 as a result of the implementation of austerity measures on the cost of transport. I, hereby, table a detailed breakdown showing the transport comparison per Ministry for the Financial Years 2008/2009 and 2009/2010, which will be contained in the Government Accounts books once they are released. (b) As at 31st December, 2010, a total of 1,491 of the surrendered vehicles had been sold. That sale realized Kshs338,244,955 and that amount has already been paid to the Exchequer. (c) A total of 150 non-fuel guzzlers have been purchased at a total cost of Kshs566,950,000.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have looked at the table that the Minister has laid on the Table. However, it seems as if the Minister is comparing the estimates of the two financial years. That should not be the case. It was a major pronouncement by the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance. I am sure that there must have been some workings to show what the Government was targeting to save. Could he tell us whether there was a target amount aimed at being saved and whether the amount that was saved was within that target amount?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, indeed, the target amount was Kshs1.2 billion and Kshs.846,355,639 has already been realized. The difference between the target and what was realized is the escalation of costs due to the increase in fuel prices. The extra vehicles were purchased for the ESP projects and security operations. That had a trickle effect such that the savings went to Kshs850 million, which is still a major saving.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, if I got the Minister right, he has indicated that they sold those vehicles at a cost of Kshs338,244,955. They bought the fresh fuel guzzlers at Kshs566 million. Could he tell us if there was any logic in recovering those vehicles from different Government Departments?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Kshs338,244,955 is what was realized from the vehicles that were sold. There are still more vehicles to be sold. In fact, hon. Members

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, could I finish?

Order! Member for Nyakach, allow the hon. Minister to finish.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are talking about what has been realized to date. We are not talking about the cost of the vehicles that will be sold. This is the amount that has been realized from the sale of the vehicles. There are still more vehicles to be sold. The new vehicles were purchased at a cost of Kshs500 million compared to what would have been spent on higher capacity vehicles which, at the very least, would have cost double that amount. So, there was realization of costs in terms of buying the Passats and saving on the Mercedes Benzes. The operational cost of the Passats is far much lower than the higher capacity vehicles which are, certainly, much more expensive, as hon. Members who have them may have realized by now.

Thank you Mr. Speaker, Sir. I thank the Minister for the answer that he has given. However, could he also indicate to this House the number of the un- sold vehicles and specify why they have not been bought by Kenyans?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the number can be provided, subsequently. However, the reason for the slow off-take of the vehicles is that previously, they were being sold on auction basis. The Government had, obviously, some reserve prices and did not want to throw them away, depending on the prices determined by the auction. The vehicles whose bids had not matched the reserve prices were retained to ensure that the Kenyan public gets maximum value from the disposal of those vehicles. A second batch has now been tendered and the process will continue until all the vehicles have been disposed off without losing value to the Kenyan taxpayer, who had paid for them in the first instance.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Since we are aware that the policy of the Government is to have 1,800 cc engine capacity saloons; what you are calling the non-fuel guzzlers. How did you arrive at the decision to buy Passats and yet, vehicles within that range are very many? What did you consider in purchasing Passats only?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I believe that Question was responded to in this very House last year and the Minister tabled all the details of the whole tender process that arrived at the decision on the Passats. It is purely a matter of a combination of the cost of the vehicles, the maintenance cost and who was available to supply all those vehicles at the time they were required. All that went through a competitive process by the Treasury with all the major vehicle suppliers. The information is already in this House.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, looking at the cost of the Passats and the amount that has been recovered from the sale of the fuel guzzlers, they are almost similar. It is very possible that the cost of replacing the Passats plus the initial costs will exceed the savings. Could the Minister confirm whether there were actual computations to determine the long-term benefits of this decision?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, indeed, the computations have been going on since 2006 when a transport taskforce was put in place to look at the Government transport. It identified the number of vehicles that were required, the number of vehicles the Government had and what it needed to go forward. The purchase of vehicles with less

Member for Mutito! He is not here. The Question is dropped.

Are there any Statements due for delivery today?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Order, Mr. Nyamweya! Are there any Statements for delivery? Mr. Minister for Transport you may proceed! How long is the Statement?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is the Order for Leader of Government Business.

Yes, please, proceed!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, pursuat to provisions of Standing Order 36(4) I take this opportunity to make the following Statement with regard to the business for the week commencing the 15th of February 2011. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the House is expected to deliberate on the Motion on adoption of the Report of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs on the nomination of the Chief Justice, Attorney-General and the Director of Public Prosecutions, and the Motion on the adoption of the Report of the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade on the nomination of the Controller of Budget. Mr. Speaker, Sir, may I take this opportunity to congratulate you on your ruling which now facilitates these Committees to present these Reports. Also the House Business Committee (HBC) did ballot for consideration:- (i) a Motion by Mr. Eugene Wamalwa to the Ministry of Agriculture;

(ii) a Motion by Mr. Affey to the Ministry of State for Immigration and Registration of Persons. The HBC will convene on Tuesday the 15th of February 2011 to consider business for the rest of the week. Thank you.

Are there requests for Statements? Hon. Members, next will be Order No.8 and in respect thereof, I have received a request from the Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs that they have not quite been able to find time away from the business of nominations to input into this Bill.

So, their report is not ready and they have pleaded that we give them until Tuesday next week. I find that request reasonable and, therefore, defer Order No.8 to Tuesday afternoon.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, at the conclusion of business yesterday, I was in the process of moving this particular Bill, and I was at that time quoting from an extremely old but very relevant decision of the court. It is a decision of 1798 in the case of Buller versus J. Tedlock and it was quoting on justice. It enables me at this point, therefore, to move directly to the Bill and make a presentation to this hon. House as to the purpose of this Bill.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this Bill is a continuation of what Kenyans began in August last year.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, could you kindly protect me? The Bill I am moving is so important that I would like---

Order, hon. Members! Note that it is at this point that we now deal with substantive business of the House. This is legislation which will affect you, your constituents, this nation and indeed, the international community. I think you are all under obligation to contribute to this business. If nothing else, just listen and applaud where you should.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish they could do so every time. This Bill is a continuation of what Kenyans began in August last year. The people of Kenya have for a long time cried out for a fair, efficient and expeditious judicial system. In a sense, a lot of Kenyans recall with nostalgia the Judiciary that was provided for in the Independence Constitution. Unknown to a lot of Kenyans, that Independence Constitution, as my learned friend hon. Orengo continues to remind us, had established a truly independent Judicial Service Commission. In fact, the procedure for appointment and removal of Judges was as good as any that I have come across. But as hon. Orengo has also

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, again, I wish to commend the hon. Minister for preparing this Bill. Let it be known that in preparing this Bill, there were the widest possible consultations. I for one, together with other Cabinet Ministers, including hon. Kingi, Kajwang and quite a number of others, participated together with the Attorney-General, members of the Law Reform Commission and various leaders from the civil society organizations and other stakeholders. They all actually participated in the formulation of this Bill, even before we started working on the draft.

I wish to commend the Minister in the manner in which he made himself available and to be the chief pilot in the preparation of this Bill. In all meetings, where this Bill was presented, including the Cabinet and civil society organizations, he did a commendable job. Not just to present the Bill in these meetings, but being always ready to adopt any

On a point of order, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. Truly we were in Alliance High School together with Mr. Orengo. We proceeded to the University of Nairobi where he happened to be our student leader during that famous demonstration of that Norwegian who was the head of the Architecture Department. At that time, the late President Kenyatta sided with the students. I have that regard for him and I have due respect for him. He is a personal friend. However, my conduct and utterances in this country have always been nationalistic. This is not to mean as Paul says in Rome that he is a Jew that I was not born in some---

Could you now get to your point of order?

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, even with a light touch the likely conclusion of the statement made by my dear friend is that I am inclined to be not thinking rationally in various utterances. Is he in order to say so, without bringing some evidence to this House? I am committed to the reconciliation of this country. I am committed to one Kenya. I am committed to the good and unity of Kenya. Thank you.

I am still waiting for your point of order.

On a point of information, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker.

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I do not want to be informed, but I would wish that the former speaker would rise and say that he withdraws any statement that could likely render the wrong meaning to the good intentions which I know that he has as a friend.

Hon. Minister, did you imply in any way in your statement that the hon. Member was not nationalistic in his politics?

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, that would be a matter of opinion. There is no point of order that has been breached. I quite believe that he is a good friend of mine. He has invited me to his home. We have had discussions. I have gone to his rural home during the day, but when I left it was only hon. Members from his area who were invited. So, I was wondering why does my friend invite me for goat eating in the day in his house and when I think the night is the time that the music starts playing, he tells me there is another meeting of which I was not qualified to attend. So, I was just speaking figuratively.

Hon. Members, I think we should let that matter to rest. If I remember correctly Mr. Orengo said it was with a light touch. Let us not belabour the point.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. I will straightaway go away from the praises and all the good things that have been said and ask the Minister to pay attention to a few things because he really needs our minds here to fertilize the Bill and not for us to praise singers. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, the first thing I want to raise concerns the principle of separation of power. We have brought into this Judicial Service Bill, the terminology “President of Supreme Court, President of Court of Appeal, Vice-President of what and not”. We must not confuse our people out there. The only President is the one that we will elect through the ballot. We do not want this terminology to be brought into the Judiciary. The word “president” has political connotations in it. The word “president” has been the preserve of the people who have been elected through the ballot. We have thousands of terminologies that we can use. You can say: “My Lord, the Chief Justice.” You can call him whatever you want. You refer to him as My Lord or whatever you want. We do not want to import those terminologies into the political arena. Why should this Parliament import those terminologies into the Judiciary? Why are we letting our terminologies to be taken? We just heard the Speaker say very clearly that we must not be impeded in terms of the way we conduct our business here. There must be separation, even in terminology. It would be absurd to refer to the Head of the Executive or the Head of Parliament as hon. Chief Justice or hon. President. Let us leave it the way it is. I will be suggesting, very strongly, to the Minister to remove all those references. They can find other references to refer to the Judiciary so that we keep it in that manner. I am referring, specifically---

On a point of order, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. Is the hon. Member, who is my very good friend and a very senior lawyer, in order to mislead the House by suggesting that the words I have used are an invention when, for example, Article 164(2) says:- “There shall be a President of the Court of Appeal who shall be elected by judges of the Court of Appeal from amongst themselves.”

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I said that in this law, it is my opinion that we do not use those terminologies. With regard to the principal judge, I have no issue with that. I think you got my point. Let us not run away from the principles according to separation of powers. I and you can understand that very clearly, senior counsel. However, it may not go down well with the people of Garsen or Mbooni for that matter. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, the second point I want to make is in relation to Clause 6. In this clause, there are positions of judges that have been created. We have a resident judge; in particular, as the Head of High Court Division, we have the chief registrar and the posts of principal judges that have been created under this. I strongly suggest that we must, at this point, create the position of a county judge. In this Constitution, we have talked a lot about devolution. We created the position of a governor who is the head of the executive at the county level. We have created the Speaker of the County Assembly who is the head of the County Assembly. We have not created the head of the Judiciary at the county level. We must find a way in which this is clear. I do not see any difficulties in that. What are the duties of the resident judge here? It says that he shall be responsible to the Principal Judge of the High Court Division for the administration of their station or division. We can rename this and create 47 county judges. It would be the first time in the County of Tana River--- I said this the other day when the Chief Justice went to open a court in Garsen. There was need for us to have our own High Court. In this respect, I say that we must create the office of the County Judge. I know that there are very many places in this country where there is no High Court. There are Resident Magistrates in those areas and for you to make an appeal, you have to go long distances before you can reach the courts where appeals can be made. I do not need to belabor that point. I know that many hon. Members have suffered the same way that we have suffered. We need services. This devolution must be given effect. This Constitution must not be theoretical. We must make it real. To make it real, this Parliament must create and make it necessary and compulsory that the Judiciary appoints those judges so that those services can be reached right down at the county level. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I also want to bring to the attention of the Minister my third point regarding Clause 18. This is with regard to the commissioners who have been appointed as members of the Judicial Service Commission. We said that those who cannot sit in that Commission include Members of Parliament, a member of a local authority and a member of the executive committee of a political party. I propose that we make it very clear in law here in Parliament, so that we avoid the controversy that was there with regard to one nominee. Maybe, in future, any person who is appointed to this high exalted position should stop any practice of law. We should not have a person who is a lawyer coming to court while he is a Judicial Service commissioner at the same time. It can be intimidating when your employer is before you, as a judge or a potential judge, and still has to come before your court when you are a Resident Magistrate or a Chief Magistrate. The same person is practicing before your court and, maybe, you are

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this Bill.

I have seen this Bill at another level, and I want to support the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs on the way and the manner in which he has presented this document.

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, there is one area which has been mentioned, which I want to re-emphasise. Now that we have 47 counties, there should be an express provision in the law for the establishment of a county judge and the retinue of judges that go with such an office, because one of the biggest problems we are experiencing at the county-level is backlog of cases. Some cases are as old as 20 years, and you wonder how justice is being dispensed in some of those areas. You cannot get the necessary space to be heard in the courts, so that your case can be disposed of. We have experienced this as Members of Parliament. People have come to us requesting that we make appeals. Now that we have a law establishing the offices of judges, one cardinal office we, as Parliament, must establish is the office of the county judge and all other judicial offices that go with it, in line with the Office of the Governor within the county and other offices within the county level. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, another issue I want to address is that the expenses of the Judicial Service Commission. They are now provided for by directly accessing the Consolidated Fund. Therefore, the story of lack of resources to dispense justice should be an historical matter. Clause 26(1) of the Bill clearly states that they shall access resources directly from the Consolidated Fund. One of the areas I heard my friend, hon. Mungatana, criticise heavily is the question of retention of these resources. I have a different opinion. Now that the county courts must catch up with the rest of the High Courts in Nairobi, Kisumu and other major cities, it is only fair and important that they retain those funds for the purpose of renovating or rehabilitating existing court houses in the country, which are in a dilapidated form. When you go out there, you will be very

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to congratulate and commend the Minister and his staff for coming up with this Bill, which is timely for our country. This Commission has become necessary, because there is a culture that we must create within our judicial system. The issue of the Judiciary being financially independent is very important but we must ensure that the same independence goes with accountability. A rigorous system is required to ensure that the people appointed to the Commission are accountable.

The issue of money being retained by anybody within the Government is, in my point of view, irregular. This Parliament cannot abandon making laws, voting for the Budget and monitoring the use of the funds that it votes. When an institution is going to retain some money, one wonders how that money is going to be accounted for. That defeats the principle of this Government or this country ensuring that public use of funds is properly monitored by Parliament. Therefore, the provision on retention of any money should be scrapped from this Bill. Just like other bodies, they should only use money that has been voted for by this Parliament. The same thing should happen to the Judicial

On a point of order, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for the hon. Member to keep on referring to Mr. Minister instead of addressing the Speaker?

I have a lot of regard for the Chair. I started by seeking the permission of the Chair; I am addressing the Minister through the Chair. I hope that is forgotten. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I wish to say that justice delayed is justice denied. Even without all these we are doing in the Judiciary, I would ask the Minister to look at the Judiciary today and ask himself, why does it take five years for some cases to

And women!

Of course. “Men” in the Bible means both men and women, unless you are not a Christian. Let us try to have a panel of great honour and great respect, which is going to be dealing with some of these matters because of what justice is. I wish to stop there. I support all the measures by the Minister and the Government to put our Judiciary in a better form.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for this opportunity. First and foremost, we have run the Judiciary for the last almost 50 years without a Judicial Service Act. We have run the Judiciary without rules on how to manage it. We have run the Judiciary on the whims of whoever is chosen by some luck to be the Chief Justice, and whoever has been chosen to be the Registrar. This has been done without any rules. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is a pity that we have done that. In fact, we are very lucky that we have run the Judiciary without rules for 50 years and it has been running, anyway. I do not know whether it has been running forward or backwards. However, I think most of the people in this country believe that we have not been running forward. In fact, I think that is the reason we have talked of radical surgeries, reforming the Judiciary and now we are attempting to have a Judicial Service Act in place, so that the Judiciary can run on some rules. There was a time when you could walk into the Office of the Chief Justice at anytime, especially when they were wazungus and you were listened to. In fact, if you had an application which you insisted that you wanted the Chief Justice to hear, the Chief Justice would gladly listen to you anytime. Incidentally, the Chief Justice would even give you tea, something which you rarely got. The current Chief Justice of the Republic of Kenya, who is retiring in March--- If you tried to make an appointment to see the Chief Justice, first of all, you would wait for ages. If you wrote to the Chief Justice to get an appointment, you would not be replied to. If you tried to knock the door of the Chief Justice, the policemen would stop you. I am saying that we have been running the Judiciary without rules and certain standards of how they manage this very important institution.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the hon. Member in order to say that we are not able to have a President elected transparently?

Order, hon. Oyongo Nyamweya! You are seeing the disorder in your own mind. The Member did not say so.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for protecting me. I only said that, of course, we go through elections, which are transparent to get a President. However, if the Office of the President were to be filled by interviews---

Hon. Kajwang, your time is up!

I beg to support.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this Bill.

I want to thank the Minister for bringing this Bill at such a time when we are talking about issues of the Judiciary and separation of powers. I have worked for a long time on the issues of access to justice and reform of the Judiciary when I was in the civil society. I particularly worked in the programme called the Governance, Justice and Law Order Sector Reform Programme (GJLOs), that was working around issues of reforms of the Judiciary. That is why the Judicial Service Bill is necessary because it sets the stage and agenda for the reform of the Judiciary. I want to say that if there is one challenge that we face in terms of access and reforms in the Judiciary. There are many people who are unable to get access to the Judiciary. They include especially women and children. This is because of the perception that the Judiciary is corrupt. If the Judiciary is corrupt, then the children and women who are not financially endowed very often do not have access to justice. I mean children and women whose fathers and husbands, respectively, have refused to take care of them. We have many cases - and most of them have been in court for years and years – where women have been chased out of their homes with children. For many of them, if you looked at their cases critically, you will find that it was because somebody was compromised. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I started my legal career with the election petition court which was then one court. I am happy that even though our Judiciary is not where we want it to be, at least, a little has changed. But we do not want just a little but a lot. When I sat in that election petition court, I was shocked. I am sure Mr. Kombo cannot remember but I was a very young petite girl. I can see the Minister is nodding because he remembers very well. I was the one representing the Attorney-General and I sat through when his election was declared unconstitutional. I remember Mr. Kajwang abusing the judges together with his clients. He said that one day, he shall reform this country. I remember he came in a torn gown and as a young lawyer, I was looking at them. I looked at all those heavy weights and said: “Wow!” I did not know that one day, they will be sitting on the same side with Mr. M. Kilonzo as the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs. So, indeed, it is something that is changing but we want more changes than what we are seeing. I also want to talk about what Eng. Maina said on the issue of renewal of our minds. I know that those who are calling for judges from outside the country--- It is not

Order, Mrs. Odhiambo-Mabona! I hope you have your statistics right.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, from the way we are reacting in this country, even from what is shown from the post-election violence, half of this country would be jobless. I also want to talk about the issue of technology. In this century and time, if you do not have basic technological expertise, really you are a relic. It looks like it is a difficult thing, especially for persons who are a little older, but it is not too late. I would want to say that in my activism spirit, today a lot of women are wearing black in protest. We are dressed in black in protest because there are no women in the four positions that have been presented to us. I will not talk about the constitutionality of it because I sit in the Justice and Legal Affairs Committee and I will address the matter there. However, from a factual perspective, there are eminent women in the Office of the Attorney-General. I have given their names before. There are eminent women in the

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir for giving me this chance to support this Bill. This is a very important day since we passed the new Constitution. This country is moving forward, but the biggest challenge that we have is that we are not respecting the new Constitution. The three arms of Government - Parliament, Judiciary and the Executive, are not respecting the new Constitution. As far as I am concerned, people have been saying that the Judicial Service Commission should not appoint the Chief Justice. My take is that the Judicial Service Commission is the one mandated by the Constitution to appoint the Chief Justice. Why do I say that? Some people have said that the Attorney-General and Chief Justice are leaving their offices; that is true. However, they are not the only sitting members of the Judicial Service Commission. There are other capable members of that Commission. We all know that the Prime Minister will be running for the Presidency of this country and we know that the President will be leaving office. For this nation to move forward, we need to have a Chief Justice who people will not see as a man or woman who has been given the job. He or she must have the credentials and experience in an independent legal system. If you allow me, I will refer to Chapter 17 of this Constitution. It says; “Every person has the right to institute court proceedings---“ That means that this Constitution has been contravened. According to me, Parliament can go on and debate whatever it wants to debate. However, the High Court of Kenya, which is a separate body mandated by the Constitution to make decisions, has clearly stated that the appointment of the Chief Justice was a contravention of the Constitution. Parliament could adopt the Speaker’s ruling and talk about it. However, what message are we sending to Kenyans and to the whole world? When we say that we have a new Constitution which we swore in this House to protect---

Order! Hon. Oyongo Nyamweya, you will still have 17 minutes to contribute to this matter when it comes up again. Hon. Members, it is now time to interrupt the business of the House. The House is, therefore, adjourned until Tuesday, 15th February, 2011 at 2.30 p.m.

The House rose at 6.30 p.m.