Good morning, hon. Members. The House being low in the morning, I, therefore, order that the Division Bell be rung.

I now Order that the Division Bell stops ringing. We have a quorum ready to transact the business of the day. Next Order!

Hon. Kang’ata, are you in the Chamber? Does anyone have instruction from hon. Kang’ata to hold his brief this morning? Okay, the hon. Member is not in the Chamber, we will defer it to the next session, maybe in the afternoon. Next Order! Is the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Lands in the Chamber?

Very much in the Chamber.

Is hon. Alice Ng’ang’a in the Chamber?

I am trying to look around to see if Mhe . Ng’ang’a is around but I cannot see her.

Would it not be prudent to have her in the Chamber?

Indeed, it would be prudent that I undertake to issue the Statement when she is in the House.

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Suggest that perhaps we see if we can get time in the afternoon to get it done or another day that the Member may suggest.

Yes, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I will be ready as well in the afternoon.

But are you ready with the Statement anyway?

In the afternoon.

Are you ready right now?

I will be comfortable with the afternoon, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Would you have been ready if the Member was here?

I am ready, I have the Statement.

Alright, you will read the Statement tomorrow morning, be prepared and perhaps let the Member know that we will have that Statement read in the morning.

As directed, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Alright, Chairperson of the Committee on Transport, Public Works and Housing, regarding delayed tarmacking of roads by the Kenya Urban Roads Authority (KURA) and the Kenya Rural Roads Authority (KERRA) as requested by hon.Muthomi Njuki.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I rise to respond.

Chair, is the Member hon. Muthomi Njuki, in the Chamber?

Yes, he is behind me.

You may proceed.

I rise to respond to a Statement sought by hon. Muthomi Njuki.

The Member had requested for a Statement regarding upgrading of major roads in Chuka Town. He wanted to know the following:-

(i) the cause of delays in releasing funds and commencement of the work;

(ii) reasons for the Government spending money on road design and budgeting for roads and not implementing the activity; and

(iii) the time period in which this road can be completed. I now beg to respond to the Statement.

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Thank you so much Chair, Committee on Transport, Public Works and Housing. Hon. Onesmus Muthomi Njuki, do you find that answer comprehensive enough?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this morning, I am happy and smiling man. First and foremost, I want to very sincerely thank the Chair of the Committee and commend him even for higher positions. I requested for this Statement on 17th October, 2013, about one and a half months ago and the Chairman tells me that it has taken that long because he had got a very unsatisfactory answer from the Ministry, which he found to be noncommittal and did not make any sense. Using his experience as a former Minister for Roads, he pushed the officers and today, we can smile that Chuka Town is getting Kshs150 million. However, if you look at the cost of doing one kilometre of road today, it is around Kshs60 million. That means that this money will only do two and a quarter kilometres of road. Considering that the road is around eight kilometres, then a big chunk will be left undone.

I want to be thankful and say that half bread is better than no bread at all. This Kshs150 million coincides with the President’s visit this Friday. The President will be visiting Chuka Town and I hope that the Ministry will consider giving us the balance of the money so that we can have a tarmacked road in the next few months. With those few words, I thank the Chairman once more and hope that the rest of the money will be on the way.

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Thank you, hon. Njuki. We are happy when you are happy. Half a loaf of bread is better than no loaf at all. Hon. Karani, are you on a point of order on this?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, last week---

No, do you have anything, which is arising from the responses that we have just got?

No.

Okay, then hold your horse. I mind when people raise their hands in the august House because I am able to see all of you from where I am. Hon. Serut, you want to speak to this issue?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as much as I appreciate the response from the Chair as far as Chuka Town is concerned, I want to request him to tell the House what is happening to the GOK funded projects which are ongoing in terms of tarmacking. I have roads in my constituency which were started way back in 2007, which have stalled and there is no word from the Ministry as to what is happening.

Thank you, hon. Serut. I gave you the chance because you are an independent Member. Therefore, when you put your request, I will recognise you. However, do you not think that the question you are asking is either supplementary or not within the question that the Chair was asked? You may want to raise your own Statement, so that the Chair may investigate and respond to is appropriately.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Chair of the Committee on Transport, Public Works and Housing should all the time be prepared to answer at least, supplementary questions.

I know that he should be able to answer all questions, but related to what he was asked. The Chair is just a conveyor belt that brings information that has been investigated around the subject that he was tasked to respond to. Hon. Member, draft your Statement and prosecute it alone. Do not hang on the tails of another Member’s Statement.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to thank the Chair for that Statement and for informing us that at least Kshs150 million has been set aside for Chuka as an emergency fund. During the April rains this year, a number of drifts were washed away in my area. I requested for emergency funds and up to now, the Regional Engineer has not received a single cent. I am wondering whether this is a case of discrimination. I do not know whether this issue of Chuka Town is more urgent than the drifts which were washed away and people cannot reach their homes as I speak.

Again, hon. Member, you are in my words, hanging on the court tails of another Member’s Statement. You may

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I believe that when we request for Statements, they should cut across the country. When you say that it should be specific for Chuka, I do not agree with you. When a Member requests a Statement, we believe that the issues contained there cut across the country for it to be approved. The issue of upgrading roads is all over the country including Kitale Town. What measures is the Government putting in place to take care of other towns?

I appreciate your comment, but two things: One, from the Speaker’s Chair, even though you may disagree with the Speaker, you will still follow the decision he makes. But more importantly, it depends on the nature of the Statement that has been requested. When a Statement is very specific to an issue, the Chair puts that Statement to his Members in the Committee and it is investigated within the context of that Statement. So, the answers that he brings are related within the facts that he gathered around that Statement. You must know that he is not a Minister. He is only the Chair of a Committee who is bringing responses from the Committee. I am sure you are a Member of one of those Committees. The same way they go in those Committees is the same way we expect them here. So, I appreciate that but you will have to make either a specific request or a general one which deals with the whole nation. Then all of us can now rise and investigate because we would have that allowance.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. The issue of roads is very emotive and every region would want their roads to be upgraded just like Chuka. I would like to find out from the Chairman the policy in the Ministry. As a Chairman, I am sure he must have found out from his Minister what the policy is in terms of balancing these projects. Just like the people of Chuka want their roads to be upgraded, the people of Mumias also, especially Mumias East where I represent, would like to see our roads also upgraded. What is the policy? How would the Ministry ensure that roads in all the regions are upgraded?

Thank you so much. Members, I want to steer you away from that direction. We need a change of mindset. Chairs are not Ministers, hon. Washiali. When we used to ask Ministers what the policies are, the Ministers would come, in a parliamentary democracy, rise and state the policy of the Ministry. Chairs are simple people that sit in a Committee and send information around the areas they have been asked. They bring here what the Government has given them. So, what you do, if you are looking for a policy, request for the policy by way of Motion or some other way, and then the Chair will have the time to bring that information from the Executive. I need us to have a shift of mind.

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

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Hon. Shill, I do not want to engage in discussions on this. Hon. Murungi, is it on the same subject?

Yes, hon, Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is on the same subject, but very specific to Chuka. On record, Chuka has been promised so many goodies by the previous Governments. Is this Kshs150 million available immediately or in the Supplementary Budget that will be coming to the Floor of the House soon or it is just a promise like it has been happening for many years? This road is in Chuka and other regions of Meru, including where I come from. Just like the other Members, in my constituency, there are many projects which were approved by the previous Government, which are stalled at the moment. The roads within Kanyeki-ini Market and Igoji Market---

Thank you, so much. That is a very relevant discussion but only to the extent that the Chair needs to explain whether these goodies are just but a promise or that this time it will be delivered.

Thank you hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I want to say that KURA deals with municipalities. This money was supposed to be there in the last financial year. There was some work that was done and it was not completed and that is why the Ministry has decided to apportion part of the emergency fund to see whether they release some little money to sugar producing areas.

I also want to respond to the Members who have risen about their roads in their constituencies. I want to say that it is true that there is emergency money that is supposed to go to the constituencies. Within the course of this week or next week, the money will go to the constituencies. So, I would urge hon. Members to hold their horses and consult their local engineers. In another one week, that money will be there. But the one for Kshs150 million is available.

All right. Thank you very much. The money is available for Chuka, it is not goodies that have been promised since you were born. Let us have Hon. Shill on an intervention.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just wanted to raise an issue on the same direction.

Okay. Come to your own intervention.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, hon. Abongotum is not in, but I just wanted to put an ---

Would you now speak to your own intervention?

On this one?

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No, you are on an intervention and the Chair has recognized you. Would you now speak to the National Assembly?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I really wanted a direction on the way we request for Statements. This is because when you are requesting for statements---

I am afraid hon. Shill--

It needs some bit of direction, please.

Okay, let me hear you.

When we are requesting for Statements, we are always advised that we cannot be specific. We are told to frame it in such a way that it has a national outlook. So, we expect when the Statement is responded to, it will touch on policies affecting the whole country. We are very much aware that Chairpersons of Committees are only serving as conveyor belts. When we are getting these answers, we have citizens and civil servants watching and sometimes they are not pleased with the way things are going.

For instance, when roads are shared, this should not be a country where we have some people having it and others not having it.In my constituency or North Eastern Province, we have been marginalized for 50 years and now we are going to celebrate 50 years of independence. Some people have a balance of Kshs150 million, which is just for emergency while others have none! Therefore, what we are saying, this is a House where we represent the people of Kenya. We want people to understand that, some people are being favoured. We know very well that a certain powerful Minister in the last regime has done very well by getting more roads for his constituency in Meru done. But some of us---

Hon. Shill, it is very clear, do not be jealous about---

I am not jealous but what we are saying is that we must have equitable distribution of resources and people must have equal shares. That is a fact.Why should some people in this country have more while others have nothing? We must change, we have a new Constitution.That is the truth! Nyanza, Western and North Eastern provinces are marginalized. Some people get more things than other places, which is very wrong.

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

All right. Thank you. There is nothing which the hon. Member has said which is out of order. Everything he has said, he is entitled to say it as an hon. Member. Except that, let me advise you, hon. Shill, from the Chair and I hope you are listening, you are multi-tasking

I am just getting water. I am very thirsty and annoyed.

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Thank you. I need you to understand this as a matter of principle: The speaker has made a direction which is now part of our Speaker’s manual directions on Statements. I need you to go and extract and read it carefully. You will be guided very well on how Statements are done. But two, our role here is legislative. If you want the Government to do something or refrain from doing something, the best way is not to ask for a Statement. This is because you will simply get the facts the way they are.

But bring a Motion urging this National Assembly to resolve that certain things must be done. If you do that, then the civil servants you are talking about would have to do them, the way the National Assembly has done. Therefore, let us not use time for Statements the way it was before, let us use the time for Statements to ask for facts which are urgent in nature and which cannot wait for Motions or which cannot wait for legislation. I think that is the direction we will go. Please, stand advised. You can bring a Motion on roads, water or whatever else in the whole country and then the House will resolve that certain things must be done within the terms of the National Assembly. Thank you very much. Actually, you were on an intervention on something else and you ended up forgetting and saying other things. Can you be relevant?

I am sorry, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. It was about my question on police issues, which hon. Abongotum was supposed to answer.Last Thursday, he pushed it to this week. So, I would request that this afternoon or tomorrow, he answers my question.

All right. Thank you very much. You can see that the Chairperson of the Committee is not here. Therefore, that question will be carried to tomorrow morning. Thank you.

Thank you, hon. Speaker, Sir. Last week, the Speaker gave instructions that a question which had been raised over the appointment of Director of Veterinary Services be answered specifically this morning.

Which Committee was this?

The Departmental Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Cooperatives.

You had asked a question?

I had asked on behalf of Kanini Kega.

You had asked on behalf of another Member. Is hon. Kanini here?

No, he is not.

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Do you have his instructions to keep on prosecuting that on his behalf?

Yes, I do hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Written instructions?

No, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Do you know what the Standing Orders say on when a Member allows you to do something on his behalf?

He had given instructions over the phone because he was away.

All right. Is the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Cooperatives here?

He is not there!

All right. We will have to consult the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Cooperatives and find out. But I would request you to look for that hon. Member and tell him to do his things by himself, not through proxies. Next Order.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move the following Procedural Motion:- THAT, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 256(1), this House resolves to exempt the business appearing in today’s Order Paper from the provisions of Standing Order 40(3), being a Wednesday Morning, a day allocated for Business not sponsored by the Majority or Minority Party or a Member belonging to the Majority or Minority Party or Business sponsored by a Committee.

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Before hon. Chris Wamalwa seconds the Motion, hon. Members, you were not listening to the Leader of the Majority Party when he said that you sat in this Chamber up to 10.00 p.m. Therefore, you did not applaud to yourself. Can you applaud to yourself for staying in the Chamber up to 10.00 p.m. to transact urgent business?

Proceed, hon. Wamalwa.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I rise to second the Motion because it is quite in order. We have been doing this the entire of this week, including last week.

Therefore, I beg to second.

Yes, hon. Clement Muchiri Wambugu.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I rise to support this Procedural Motion and congratulate the hon. Members who stayed here until very late. This is something very commendable, especially because this House has been seen by people from outside like we do not do anything. They are not aware that we have been transacting business here for the last two weeks, until very late. If we can continue with this spirit, we will be able to cover many Bills. By the time we break for Christmas recess tomorrow, we will have covered quite a lot. With those remarks, I beg to support.

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Hon. Members, I want to give direction on the business appearing as Order No.1, under which we have sections “(i)” and “(ii)”. I direct that the Order appearing under “(i)” be deferred to tomorrow morning. That leaves us with the business appearing as Order No.10 (ii). Next Order!

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Members, we are now in the Committee of the whole House to consider the National Social Security Fund Bill (National Assembly Bill No.27 of 2013).

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 3 be amended in sub-clause (3) by deleting the figure “73” and substituting therefor the figure “72”.

This is because there is no provision of 73 in the Bill.

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(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Yes, hon. Were.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I support the amendment because we do not have 73 in the Bill. So, it is supposed to be 72.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:-

THAT,Clause 4 be amended by inserting the following new paragraph immediately after paragraph (f)-

“(fa) ensuring that the liabilities of the Old Provident Fund are settled within five years from the commencement of the new Provident Fund and the close of the Old Provident Fund.

If you look at Clause 4 (f)(2), it proposes that the Old Provident Fund be kept running but we felt that it cannot be kept running indefinitely. So, we thought that we put a definite time for it to be closed. So, we are proposing as indicated in the Order that it only stays alive for five years.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Abdinoor Mohammed, do you have a further amendment to what has been proposed by the Chair of the Committee?

I do not have a further amendment.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): It is on the Order Paper on Clause 4.

It is almost the same because I was also catering for those five years.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): So, would you want to withdraw your amendment?

Yes, and I support the Chair on that.

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(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Okay. Therefore, I put the Question.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 6 be amended in paragraph (d) —

(a) by deleting subparagraph (i) and substituting thereof the following new subparagraph-

“(i) two persons, one of whom shall be of opposite gender, nominated by the most representative employers’ organisation with knowledge and experience in matters relating to employers to represent employers in Kenya”;

(b) by deleting subparagraph (ii) and substituting thereof the following new subparagraph-

“(ii) two persons, one of whom shall be of opposite gender, nominated by the most representative workers organisation by virtue of their knowledge and experience in matters relating to employees to represent employees in Kenya”;

The reason for this being that we wanted to be specific because the way (d)(i) and (ii) are specified in the Bill would be ambiguous and noting that the contributions are coming from employees and employers, we felt that we should actually specify the organisations that represent employees and employers but with the majority or the highest number of contributors.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I support the amendment as proposed by the Chair of the Committee. This specific part as put in the Bill just really gives it a general feel but we know that NSSF is a tripartite Fund. It is a

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(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh):Hon. Limo, do the amendments as proposed by the Chair cover your proposed amendments or you feel like yours is different? Hon. Limo is not here?Hon. Serem, do you want to speak to this particular amendment?

Yes.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Are you in agreement?

No.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Okay. Let us hear your views.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I have so much concern in a situation where we have two Members from one institution being directors of an institution. If we are saying we are putting two out of the seven, it is very difficult to have a board where two members who have the same opinion would have a consensus. It would be difficult to accommodate different views. So, if you have two bodies sending two members, we will have four members there from two institutions out of seven. If the two can gang up, it will be very difficult to run an institution where we have four members coming from only two institutions. In my view, we should see how best we can have at least one member coming from an organisation instead of having two coming from an organisation. This is because it is about the interest. What interest do we have in two members coming on board?

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Member, therefore, you are opposing?

Yes.

(Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Nyikal.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. Mine is a clarification. Whereas I agree that it is fair to say you will have the largest body representing workers but in practical terms, it is not clear to me how that will be

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(Ms) Shebesh): Hon. Were, you will clarify as we take your last remarks on this before we put the Question for the Floor to decide.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, first, I am surprised because the Member who has spoken is a member of my Committee.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Chair, are you saying that the Committee unanimously accepted the amendments that you are bringing?

Yes because if he disagreed then it would have been recorded in the report that we tabled here.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): But being an old Member, hon. Were, you know that Members can still bring variations from their Committee.

I was only bringing it for your attention.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): We do not encourage that committees split on the Floor of the House. Could you please clarify what hon. Nyikal has asked for clarification? Did you understand what he asked?

I understood because he first said that he supports. Two, he wanted to know how this organisation with the highest number of representation can be known. These organisations are registered and members who are contributing to NSSF indicate which organisations they belong to. So, as they contribute it is possible to know which umbrella body they belong to and that is how you can determine which umbrella body has the highest number of contributors.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Members, I think it is fair that we therefore put the Question. Please, be cognizant of the fact that what we are proposing is the amendment brought by the Chair of the Committee, hon. Were on clause 6 that talks about membership from two organizations.

Hon. Ms. Odhiambo-Mabona, therefore we would have to skip that amendment and go to the next clause.

I beg to move:-

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(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Were, could you just repeat that for clarity?

In the appointment of the new board, it is proposed that there should be staggering so that the whole board is not appointed at the same time, so that one part is appointed and then the other part is appointed later. In the Bill, it was proposed that the staggering takes six months, but we are proposing that we reduce the six months to two months.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): That is very clear. Hon. Gichigi, do you want to speak to that particular amendment?

Yes. I support that particular amendment, the reasoning is that, if we are creating a new fund, we do not want a situation where there is a problem with quorum for a long time. We providedthat the Minister is going to stagger this in six months.It is going to take about two years for the board to be appointed. Two months means that about a year, the board is going to be in sitting.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): I want to say hon. Members that hon. Serem had brought an amendment that was approved but it does not appear to be on the Order Paper. He can therefore read the amendment for the benefit of the Members. Do you have a copy that contains the amendment? Please come for it so that you are able to articulate your amendment.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:-

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(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): I have understood that.I give the first opportunity to the Chair of the Committee.

I oppose that amendment, as much as I respect hon. Serem. He is a Member of our Committee.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): He has got the point; he just does not agree too much with some of your amendments, so go ahead.

What I want to state is this, this is a fund where employees and employers are contributing. So, it is a fund actually covering two very key groups, and that is why we are saying, the quorum must have atleast a member of any of the two bodies so that the interest of either side is taken care of at any time of a meeting. So I oppose the amendment.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): So, for the very reason that hon. Serem is suggesting that it is not necessary to have any of the two, the Chair feels that one of those two must be present because they represent the workers; employees and employers. Am I clear on that?

I have said that contributions are coming from each side and each has got its own interest. The employer cannot be a representative of the employees, he cannot be sitting there to safeguard the interest of the employees,they need to safeguard the interest of their side and the representative of the employees will safeguard the interest of their side. That is why we are saying it is necessary for both to be there to form a quorum.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh):So, hon. Were is opposing your amendment? Let me take one or two more Members, hon. Ngeno. Yes hon. Cheboi on a point of order

I just want to be clear because hon. Serem is a Member of the Committee and hon. Were is also a member of the Committee.

Are we, therefore, saying that hon. Were is speaking on behalf of the Committee because there is a Member here who is giving a different opinion? We want to be very clear on this so that we make a good decision. Probably, he could be speaking on his own behalf and not on behalf of the Committee asthe Chair.

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(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Let me make it very clear hon. Cheboi; the amendment that has been brought by hon. Serem was not brought by the Committee. If the Committee had issues with that clause, it could have brought an amendment when it was going through this Bill. I take hon. Were not agreeing with the proposal of hon. Serem as the position of the Committee. That is why I am saying that as hon. Were speaks in this House today, he does not speak as an individual but he represents the Committee that is responsible for this sector. I want to make that very clear.

However, we have already had a discussion that hon. Serem is a Member of that Committee, he is obviously disagreeing and he has a right to do that. Let me hear hon. NgenoKipyegon’s opinion on this matter.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, my opinion is that we should not define who is supposed to be there if quorum is to be met.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): So, you are agreeing with the hon. Chair of the Committee?

Yes, I am agreeing, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. A quorum is a quorum regardless of who is present.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Let us hear one last opinion from hon. OpiyoWandayi.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I must support hon. Serem’s amendment. Once you have appointed a board of trustees, the membership of that board is the same. So, the idea of giving some trustees importance over the others should not arise. This is what usually creates room for some members of the board to start thinking that they are more important than the others. Therefore, I support that, that amendment should hold.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Members, I can see very many requests coming in and I believe that this is an issue that is – I do not want to use the word “controversial” – but needs to be ventilated a bit more. This is because what we do and pass in this House will have an impact on the new structure that is being formed in the National Social Security Fund (NSSF). So, I will give a chance to a few more Members. I can see hon. Members trying to come to a consensus and that will even be better. However, let me give hon. Abdinoor Ali a chance.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I want to support hon. Serem’s amendment. This is because there is no way the institution can be taken to ransom by organizations. This board has seven members and the way we appoint members of the board is clear in the Bill. Since the issue of quorum came up, there have been no meetings in the NSSF because two organizations boycotted to go for a meeting. So, the entire organization is being held to ransom by two organizations. We cannot allow this and we all support hon. Serem’s amendment.

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(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Serem and the hon. Chair of the Committee, it will be good for you to tell us if you can reach a consensus before I put the Question.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I rise to oppose hon. Serem’s amendment. The question is that the two organizations are the bigger stakeholders in this Fund and you cannot leave them out when you are making important decisions in that committee. So, I support the Chairman and the Committee for arriving at that decision.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I wish to support hon. Serem’s amendment. The reason is that it is not fair to give special treatment to some of the members of the board. We are creating an impression where we are saying that it is mandatory for others to be available for a quorum to be met. In so doing, we are setting a very serious precedent. It is important that all members of the board are given equal treatment so that if they are available in terms of quorum then they should proceed. Otherwise, those two institutions will hold the board to ransom and it cannot proceed.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Chair of the Committee, are you convinced on the amendment or are you still adamant that it should stay?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I am still not convinced.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): We have two amendments on Clause 15. One is by the hon. Chair of the Committee and the other one is by hon. (Ms.) Millie Odhiambo who is still missing in action. Yes, the hon. Chair of the Committee.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:-

THAT,Clause 15 be amended –

(a) by deleting sub-clause (5) and substituting therefor the following subsection-

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I do not agree with this amendment because the three-year term for the Managing Director is a relatively short period. I get the impression that what the Committee thought was that six years is a very long time for somebody to serve and they will not have time to probably terminate his or her services. If there is need then we should have this person serving for more than one term. I would have preferred, and I do not know whether the Chair agrees, that we give the person a five-year renewable term and but he cannot serve for more than two terms. Three years in this organisation is not enough for the Managing Director or the Managing Trustee to make a big difference.

If on the other hand there is a feeling you may be giving somebody five years and you do not know what to do in case of a problem, there are other provisions that will enable the organization to get rid of that person. I think a three-year renewable term is too short. In that case, I would prefer to have just six years. However, my proposal, if the Chair agrees, is that the Managing Trustee should serve for a five-year renewable term and cannot serve for more than two terms.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Member, as much as you have given a very good explanation as to why you want it that way, you know that if you have any amendment to change what is currently in the Bill,you would have had to bring an amendment or you would have to convince the Chair to move that amendment---

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady that has been my endeavor and I was looking at his face---

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): You know the procedure. Your amendment does not speak of five years; it speaks of three. The Member is suggesting five years, but what is currently in the Bill is actually three years. Are you convinced about that?

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, we reached this figure of three years after a lot of deliberations. I do not think it will be fair---

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): The Member’s best option would have been to approach the Committee when they were deliberating. Is there any contrary view?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I just want to support the Chairman of the Departmental Committee. I think three years is a good time for a Managing Director. Any time longer than that is going to cause---

I want to put the Question.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): There is an amendment by hon. Ms. Odhiambo-Mabona, but she is not here. It is unfortunate when a Member proposes an amendment which is put on the Order Paper and then they are absent. Since there is no other amendment I will put the Question.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:-

THAT, clause 26 be amended by inserting the words “in consultation with the Board” immediately after the words “Cabinet Secretary”

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:-

THAT, clause 27 be amended in paragraph (3) by inserting the word “that” immediately after the word “employee” appearing at the beginning of the third line.

This is just to tidy up the statement. This is because without the word “that” after “employee” the statement does not make sense.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:-

THAT, clause 40 be amended in sub-clause (1) by deleting the word “ten” appearing immediately after the words “lump sum ” and substituting therefor the word “forty”.

We discussed this matter with actuarial scientists. They advised us that changing the funeral grant from Kshs10,000 to Kshs40,000 might not be sustainable. So, I wanted to withdraw that amendment.

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(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): You are therefore, withdrawing the amendment.

Yes.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady I beg to move:-

THAT, clause 47 be amended in sub-clause (1) by inserting the words “in consultation withthe Board” immediately after the word “Cabinet Secretary”

This concerns regulations by the Cabinet Secretary on benefits under the Act. The Cabinet Secretary can come up with regulations in consultation with the Board.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:-

THAT, clause 48 be amended in sub-clause (2) by deleting the word “fifty” and substituting therefor the words “three hundred”.

This one regards punishment for those employers who do not conform to this. The fine that is indicated here for non-compliance is Kshs50,000. We felt that this amount of money is so low. We are proposing to increase the amount from Kshs50,000 to Kshs300,000.

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady I want to clarify further. It is not really the employer who is supposed to be charged this. It is a person who fraudulently goes and receives money pretending to be the beneficiary. We felt that Kshs50,000 is not enough and Kshs300,000 would be a better fine.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): So, this is about individuals not corporate bodies. Is hon. Gichigi right, Chairman of the Departmental Committee? This is because your explanation is at variance

He is right; I want to thank the Member for assisting me in this.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): That is why you have Members who are very alert in your Committee.

( Question of the amendment proposed )

( Question, that the word to be left out

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:-

THAT, Clause 52 be amended by deleting the words “as and when necessary” and substituting therefor the words “at once every three years.”

The Social Security Fund shall then be valued as and when necessary; it is open now as is written in the Bill. So I am proposing once every three years.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): What is being evaluated once every three years?

That is Clause 52 be amended by deleting the words “as and when necessary” and substituting therefor the words “at least once every three years”. It is now open but it will be coming after three years and then the State can value the Fund.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): It is okay for the valuation of the Fund by the State.

Exactly; the way it is written now, it is open.

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(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): So, you are now saying once every three years? Hon. Were, are you in agreement with that proposal?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I am in agreement with that amendment.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Gichigi are you in agreement with it.

I am in agreement.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Then, I will now put the Question.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): We have three amendments hon. Members, on the Third Schedule. One is by the Chair of the Committee on Labour and Social Welfare; another is by hon. Abdinoor Mohammed. Another one does not appear on the Order Paper but was approved; it is by hon. Serem. We will start with the one by hon. Abdinoor Mohammed.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady I beg to move:-

THAT the Third Schedule is amended-

(a) by deleting the words “Tier 1” appearing at the heading to the Schedule

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Hon

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I agree with that.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): I will now put the Question.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I have chosen to withdraw my amendment.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Serem, you have chosen to withdraw your amendment, and that is your right.

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(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): There is an amendment to the Fourth Schedule by hon. Were. Chair of the Committee on Labour and Social Welfare, look at the Fourth Schedule and your amendment to it.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:-

THAT, the Fourth Schedule be amended in paragraph 1- (a) By deleting the figure (3) and figure (4) appearing in subparagraph (c), and substituting therefor figure (2) and figure (3); (b) By inserting the words “by the Authority” at the end of subparagraph (f)

This is just to ensure that the correct references are made rather than figure 3 and 4; reference should be on figures 2 and 3, so that we do not refer to the wrong sub- paragraph.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): You also have another amendment (b) can; you explain it?

Sub-paragraph (f) states: “Complies with any prescribed requirements”. It is a bit general; that is why we are inserting “by the Authority” so that we are specific about whose prescription should be complied with.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Members, I do not see any interventions on this matter. I, therefore, assume that the House is ready to adopt this amendment.

(Hon. (Ms.)nShebesh): We have three amendments by hon. Were, hon. Abdinoor Mohammed and hon. Millie Odhiambo, who is missing in action. Hon. Were, take the Floor.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:-

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(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Gladys Wanga, do you want to speak to this particular amendment?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, not on this particular one, but I have an amendment, if it is admissible, to Section 2 on the definition of “social security”.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): To Clause 2?

Yes

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Gladys Wanga, you are a senior Member of this Committee; you know the procedure is to approach your Chair. He is the only one who is allowed to bring amendments. I would suggest you quickly move over and ask him if that amendment is possible. Maybe, we can listen to the amendment by hon. Abdinoor Mohamed.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:-

THAT clause 2 be amend in sub-clause (1)-

(a) by deleting the definition of “Actuary ” and substituting therefor the following definition-

“means a fellow of the institute of Actuaries in England or to the Faculty of Actuaries in Scotland or of the Canadian Institute of Actuaries, or a person holding such equivalent qualifications as the Board may, by notice in the Gazette, prescribe”.

(b) in the definition of “TIER 1 PENSION FUND CREDIT” by inserting the words “provided that the maximum deduction for the funeral grant and minimum benefits on death and disability shall not exceed two

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(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Abdinoor, I wish you could just slow down. You have important amendments and I would like the Members to understand what you are speaking about. Hon. Members listen to this amendment because it is a bit wordy. Hon. Member, please, slow down.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, the first one is in the definition of the word “Actuary, which is not provided for in the Bill. I have defined “Actuary” according to the RBA Act. That is how it is defined in the RBA Act. In (b), in the definition of “TIER 1 PENSION FUND CREDIT,” I have inserted “provided that the maximum deduction for the funeral grant and minimum benefits on death and disability shall not exceed two per cent of the Lower Earning Limit per Pension Fund member” immediately after the word “thereon”.

I am saying that the contribution is 12 per cent of the lower and upper earnings. Ten per cent will go to the Pension and Provident Fund. Two per cent of that amount, we have agreed should go to the grants for death and disability. It is not provided for in the Bill. I am proposing that, at least, this provision should take care as stated.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I have discussed this with the Member and the definition of the word “Actuary” is lifted from the RBA Act. So, it is not controversial. When you come to the second part where he is limiting the amount that is to be paid for the extra benefits to two per cent, this is something that we also discussed and we said that if we leave it open, the additional benefits could easily eat into the Fund, and we end up having no money to pay the pensioners when they retire. So, we are capping that spending to two per cent. That is why I even withdrew the earlier

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(Hon. (Ms) Shebesh: Hon. Members, especially those from this Committee, I would be interested to hear your opinion on this. I do not have interventions; yes, hon. Gichigi.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, as the two speakers have indicated, when we engaged the actuary, he came up with figures indicating that unless we cap the expenses, we might find that when people retire, they do not have any money as all the money will have been spent on medical expenses for the people suffering disability or on funeral expenses. We can even have ghost deaths. There is a capping on this, so that when people retire, they will have a pension from the Fund.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I support my colleagues. That is what we agreed in the Committee.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): We are waiting for the amendments by the Chair and any other amendments; you might have been convinced by hon. Wanga.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, we have agreed to have only these amendments. So, there is no other amendment coming.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Has your original amendment been taken care of by hon. Abdinoor’s amendment? You had an amendment to Clause 2.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, my amendment on Clause 2 is on the funeral grant; I said we are replacing 39 with 40. That is the only amendment I had.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): That does not contradict what hon. Abdinoor has moved?

No, it does not.

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move that the Committee do report to the House its consideration of the National Social Security Fund Bill, (National Assembly Bill No.27 of 2013) and its approval thereof with amendments.

( Question proposed)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that a Committee of the whole House has considered The National Social Security Fund Bill, (National Assembly Bill No.27 of 2013) and approved the same with amendments.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Committee in the said report

seconded.

One or two Members who have something burning. I can see Gladys Wanga.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. Is this the time when we should speak about the Bill, generally?

You are right; proceed.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, what this House will do by passing the National Social Security Fund (NSSF) Bill with the amendments will radically improve social security in this country. We are going to see people making enhanced contribution to the NSSF, and the enhanced benefits coming back to them. When people retire, they will retire to much better lives. We are going to see an NSSF that is far much strengthened. We look forward to seeing much more accountability at the

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move that the National Social Security Fund Bill be now read a Third Time.

econded.

(Hon. Cheboi)

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, for giving me an opportunity to speak on this Bill. As a Member of the Committee on Labour and Social Welfare, I am so excited to know that the Bill has gone through all the stages of a Bill and is about to be approved. This marks the beginning of a journey for this country that is going to transform NSSF. There is a saying that a journey of a thousand miles starts with one step. This is the first step that this House has approved for this nation to take the journey; we are very committed to move this nation forward. This Bill will transform our minds about the NSSF; it is also going to transform the lives of Kenyans who have suffered after retirement. Now Kenyans will live happily after they retire. They will be able to celebrate in their old age after they have spent the first part of their lives working for this country. This Bill will give an opportunity---

It should not be a debate, hon. Korir, but just a word. You are taking too long.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I am so excited.

Save that excitement for the afternoon.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I am not a member of that Committee but I must laud the Committee Members led by the Chairman, hon. Were, for the good work they have done for this country. Thank you.

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Very well. Instead of giving the chance to the Chairman of the Committee, and because he has contributed a lot, let us hear from the Vice-Chair.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, for giving me this opportunity. Mine is in support of the Bill. My fellow hon. Members have already talked about the importance of this Bill, which will transform this country; it will give us the motivation to save for our working and non-working members out there. The Bill, if passed, will give this country a lot of resources. As I have already said, the Government will not borrow money from other countries. I think we have looked at all the dimensions of this Bill; we have looked at the issue of the Board of Trustees and membership and have ensured that we have put enough measures in place to ensure that we do not give all the powers to particular individuals; at least we will have checks and balances. Therefore, I urge hon. Members to support this Bill because it will transform the whole country. I am sure quite a number of us are dealing with issues of social security in our respective counties. We are taking care of old people who have been working. For example, if this Bill is passed, then we will have no problem in terms of hon. Members chasing terminal benefits for their constituents. I support the Bill and I thank hon. Members who have really put in their time on our behalf.

That is fine. I did not hear anybody congratulating the Chair for having steered the process very smoothly. So, I take this opportunity to congratulate him.

Hon. Members, we were at the Second Reading and we are resuming debate which was interrupted on Wednesday 27thNovember, 2013; at that time, hon. Omulele from Luanda Constituency had eight minutes to go. Therefore, he can make use of those minutes. Hon. Omulele, the Floor is yours.

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Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I think debate on this Bill was interrupted when I was on my feet. I had stood and indicated that I was opposed to this Bill. I had also indicated that although I was opposed to it, I had seen some good provisions in it. But the vast majority of the proposed amendments to the various laws that are set out in this Bill have actually forced me to oppose the passing of this Bill. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, speaking on the bad side of the Bill, I have looked at the proposed amendments to the Public Benefits Organizations Act and, honestly, I did not see why we want to control the budgets of NGOs. We know we have had our problems with NGOs in this country. But I do not think that denying them funds from donors outside this country will be the best way to deal with them. I think the work they do is good, and the people they employ are Kenyans. If the funds are used by Kenyans, the only thing we should do is to make the NGOs more accountable, but we should not starve them of funds. For that reason, I will oppose the passing of this Bill. I also want to speak to the proposed amendments to the Anti-Corruption and Economic Crimes Act, Act No. 3 of 2003. I do not understand why we are proposing to amend Section 26, which empowers the Secretary and the Director to force a Kenyan to provide a statement on their worth. We are all aware of the ruling of a constitutional court in this country in the famous case involving hon. Murungaru; the Director of the EACC had purported to require him to provide a statement on his worth. The court found that this was actually an infringement of his constitutional safeguards. I want to agree with the court in this respect. We have known criminal practice in this country. He who accuses should always be the one to prove his allegations. We are having a situation here where Kenyans can be required to provide information that might implicate them in crimes; I do not think that this would be a proper way of observing constitutional safeguards. I will also speak to the good parts that I have seen in this Bill. I have seen the proposed amendment to the Counterfeits Act. This is a good one, because it is very important for Kenyans to clearly and actively protect intellectual property in this country. This is because intellectual property is a novel thing; protecting it is protecting the foundations of wealth. We should encourage people to be innovative by making sure that other people do not reap from where they have not sown. In this way, we will be doing this country a great service. That is a good proposed amendment in the Bill.

It is also good for the agency to compound offences where offenders have admitted their wrongdoing. This is a good one because we know that court processes sometimes take a long time. Where a party has clearly admitted that he has done wrong and is willing to make amends, it is good that the agency should have power to deal with a matter in-house rather than going to court to seek redress; that is a good provision. Another good one, in my opinion, is the proposed amendment to the Kenya Ports Authority (KPA) Act, where we are seeking to align all matters involving inland

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Your time is over.

Thank you; I generally oppose.

Let us have hon. Shebesh.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I was consulting one of the Members of the Justice and Legal Affairs Committee. You will remember that when we started this debate we were cognizant of the fact that the Committee had not looked at these particular amendments. I am now told that they have done so, and the Vice-Chair will be coming with the report of the Committee. My contiribution is that before the Committee’s report what has come out is clearly controversial. There are proposed amendments to the NGO sector, gender balance in the appointment of the Inspector-General (IG) and his deputies. Another controversy is about the SRC. I will be interested to see the proposals of the Committee. It was good to hear the hon. Member who has spoken before me speak about the good things in this miscellaneous amendments Bill. There are controversial proposals, but we must always be able to recognize those that are not, and those that are helpful. I want to be one of those who want to go on record---- I have already given my opinion to the Leader of the Majority Party, who moved these amendments. It is that for as long as you keep on clawing back at the gains that women in this country have fought for, for years, we will not be party to supporting anything that is brought here in the name of doing away with the gender balance in the appointment of the IG and his deputies. As we speak now, the deputy of the IG is Lady Grace Kaindi. It is obvious that by bringing this amendment you are saying that either you have no confidence in the leadership of Lady Kaindi, or that there are no other women who can do the kind of work she has done. It is good to note that during the interviews for the IG, gender balance was observed. The person who became second in position at the interviews was a woman.

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Hon, Shebesh, did you say that there were issues about how people dress? Let us all dress properly, whether we are ladies or men. That is with a light touch. Let us now have hon. Oyoo; since he is not here, I will give the chance to Prof. Nyikal.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to oppose this Bill for very basic reasons. One of the reasons is that miscellaneous amendment Bills are meant to deal with minor amendments and correcting typing errors, ambiguities in the law and so on. That is the explanation we have had. This particular miscellaneous amendments Bill contains numerous substantive changes in several Acts. Again, the process of bringing this Bill to the House bypassed a stage which, in my mind, is extremely important. This is the stage when we have a report of the committee of this House. We hear that the report of the committee is going to be available; it is not with us as yet, yet this Bill has so many Acts that it will really be difficult for hon. Members to go through it. I have seen the memorandum and the explanation for the Acts that are being amended. Even with that, it is still difficult to understand the amendments. One has to go and read through every Act. We have 49 of them, yet we missed out on the committee report that would have been of tremendous help to us. The other reason for my opposing this Bill is that some of the proposed amendments raise questions as to whether we are going against the Constitution. The gender issue has come out very clearly in this regard.

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I want to be clear about that. You say there is a situation where miscellaneous amendments amended the Constitution?

In the previous Constitution--- We know that very many major changes were made in the last regime through miscellaneous amendments Bills, and so I would suggest that in future we should even get a way of really getting rid of miscellaneous amendments; if it must be there then it really must be confined to what is explained as minor amendments that do not effect basic changes in Acts. We have the issue of gender in the police force, the granting of bail, and parole to people in prisons; all these are in these amendments. The issue of the Salaries and Remuneration Commission (SRC), the issue of the role of the Deputy Public Prosecutor (DPP) and NGO funding are all in these amendments, yet they are major changes. The role of the National Youth Council is also here. Again, it is being changed and there is a big public outcry. We have something like the funding of NGOs; we know a lot of funding comes, and a lot of our services, particularly in the health sector, are actually funded through NGOs, yet we are limiting it. Again, we are bringing this change not through a substantive Bill but in an amendment hidden among 49 amendments. We even do not have the committee report to help us in this. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, in my mind I think we need to look again into the issue of miscellaneous amendments being used to bring in so many changes in the law. With that, I oppose this Amendment Bill.

Very well. Let us have hon. Opondo Kaluma.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for the opportunity to address the matter of this Bill. It has been said by so many Members that a miscellaneous amendments Bill deals with small clean up issues relating to legislation. Looking at the Bill before us as a Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill, first you reckon that we are seeking to have amended a whole 49 Acts of Parliament or statutes. The number, for one, is too big. Again, if you look at it, we are dealing with very substantive issues even in respect of those statutes in which we are amending single provisions. You will discover when you look at those singular provisions very keenly that we are seeking to amend the very policy or foundation of that Act. I would want to agree with hon. Members that we do not use a miscellaneous amendments Bill to do such a thing. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, we were reminded yesterday that laws on detention without trial in this country were brought to Parliament through a

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Hon. Kaluma your time is up.

May I mention just---

Just mention as you finish.

Thank you. There is a proposed amendment to the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions Act. The extradition regime is being removed from the Office of Director of Public Prosecutions and is not being given anywhere. Now, you extradite people because they have committed a criminal offence. Issues of criminal law are under the docket of the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. Whether you want to give them to the Attorney General or any other person, it is an amendment which goes against the Constitution and I would ask that we leave it.

Your time is up. I am, therefore, going to give the opportunity to hon. Okoth. Hon. Kaluma, always make use of--- I am sure you have very good eyesight and brains too. So, look at these gadgets here.

I am happy to rise up to contribute to the Statue Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill and say that in its current format, it is not acceptable and I oppose it fully. I would like us to make some amendments before this is worth passing. Some of the key concerns we have here is about the public benefits organizations, I come from a constituency where NGOs and other public benefit organizations including faith based organizations have been doing a lot of good work, happily helping our children and our mothers on issues such as education, health care and any attempt to muzzle the NGOs and public benefit organizations will really take us a step back. For many years now, our people have been benefiting from ARV treatments and other forms of support which comes from public benefit organizations and our people would lose a lot if we make sure that this Bill passes in its current form, limiting their funding to 15% from foreign sources. So, this is something that is a national issue, not just a constituency issue for me in Kibra. We know even schools like Alliance High School are run by missionary churches which are public benefit organizations. So, we would lose a lot. Many of our tertiary institutions and colleges such as the Catholic

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Speaker (Hon. Cheboi): I am perfect with your contribution but I am just trying to say: Let us look out for areas that other Members have not mentioned because we have listened to these things and, therefore, we will not end the debate. Really, we need to move forward. Let us get the new areas.

I am glad that this section that I was touching on might be amended and changed quickly. My next issue that I want to bring up on page 993 of this Bill concerns the Kenya Airports Authority Act. The proposal is to amend the Kenya Airports Authority Act to increase the number of independent board members from two to five. Why? I do not think there is any good reason when we are talking about capping the wage bill. To expand that board is unnecessary and I think the board composition should stay as it is without adding three more independent members. There is no benefit to be gained. That will cause additional expenses. This is a window for bringing in political interference through cronies who will do the bidding of the appointing officers.

When we go to page 995, this is very important to the youth of this country. It deals with the National Youth Council Act 10 of 2009. The Bill proposes to amend the National Youth Council to streamline the membership of the Youth Advisory Board and further clarifies its functions. There is nothing wrong with National Youth Council Act as it is. Trying to amend it to take away the powers of the Youth Council that has been established and voted by the Kenyan youth to serve and advocate for their interests and abrogating its powers and prerogatives to give to a Cabinet Secretary to appoint an advisory board, is a very significant issue. That will control the youth council. It will not manage its own matters. It will only get advice from the Cabinet Secretary. I think it is a betrayal by the Jubilee Government to attempt to take away the rights of the National Youth Council and we have seen this systematic approach to cripple the National Youth Council through the denial of funding for the last two years. This year, we as Parliament allocated funding to it. But the funding has not fully reached the Council. So, it seems sinister to me, and I fully oppose it. I hope this will be dropped and let the National Youth Council be fully implemented as it has been set up.

On page 996, we are talking about the Political Parties Act of 2011. Again, the Bill proposes to amend the Political Parties Act provisions relating to the appointment of the Registrar and the Assistant Registrar of Political Parties. This is only acceptable if we make sure that the Registrar and the Assistant Registrar of Political Parties - which are sensitive positions - are also subject to the approval by Parliament rather than appointment without the approval of Parliament. This is very important to us.

The final point that I want to raise is on the National Police Service Act. I have said this before and I am glad to say it again. Anyone who knows me knows that I am a

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By the way, your time is over. You may now summarize.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it says that a final report by an Aircraft Accident Investigator should not be used in court, in suits or actions for damages. Philosophically, why do we want to make sure that reports that are valid are not used for purposes of supporting the families of victims? Families of victims cannot commission their own independent aircraft investigation report. I think we should drop this amendment and allow the report to be valid and usable by the families in seeking damages.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for your indulgence and God bless Kenya.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I rise to raise a few issues that I have seen in this Statute Law ( MiscellaneousAmendment) Bill. I will start with the one on the national honours. I have seen the National Honours Act has proposed amendments but even before then, may I say that it is very disappointing how some men find themselves on the national honours for commendation by this country or the Head of State. This is because we still continue to see people topping that list but they do not find themselves on the final list. Even as we seek to make amendments on this, we should really think, as a country, who should find themselves on that list.

I can see hon. Kabando wa Kabando looking at me. He thinks that, that is a very good point.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Section 6 of that Act should be amended. This is because we have Section 6(2) which establishes the Parliamentary Honours Advisory Committee which is to be chaired by the National Assembly Speaker and the Speaker of the Senate. This is how we come up with legislation that continues to perpetuate the fights and conflicts that we have between the Senate and the National Assembly. This is because if that Committee will be chaired by the National Assembly Speaker and the Speaker of the Senate, who is actually chairing that Advisory Committee---We should either say that one of them is assisting the other. Of course, I believe that the National Assembly Speaker should chair that Advisory Committee, assisted or deputized by the Speaker of the Senate.

I want to add my voice to those who have raised issues on the amendment to the National Police Service Act of 2011, No.11(A). The proposal to amend Section 14(b) of that Act is extremely annoying and unacceptable. This is because the proposed Section

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I am trying to avoid this statement that we use, that you want to add your voice. That becomes a leeway to repeat probably what other Members have said before. You will speak to it but we are trying to wind up this debate because it has been going on for long. Really, when we start repeating what others have said, it is time that we end it. However, proceed.

I hear you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. But, sometimes, contributions are individual. While I take your advice, I still must say that I abhor this. I have discussed a lot with the women movement and they are asking Parliament to reject this proposal.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Section 14 on the Prisons Act is proposed to be deleted completely. This Section allows the Commissioner-General of Prisons to evaluate prisoners who have been held and allow remission to the extent of one-third of their serving term or the term they are supposed to serve.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I think this is not rehabilitative. If we remove this provision, then we are saying that if I am put in for 20 years and I have shown signs of rectification, rehabilitation and improvement, then I am not of any value and I must continue to remain in jail for the entire time. For me, this is a retrogressive proposal and so we must reject it. We must allow the rehabilitation centres; that is, the prisons to be able to evaluate and allow remission of the sentences that have been given by the courts. We must reject the entire proposal because we are saying that remission is not necessary.

There was a provision that proposed to make amendments to the Advocates Act requiring that any person sitting in the Judicial Service Commission (JSC) should not be allowed to practice. The Commissioners of JSC are not full time commissioners and they do not earn a full time salary. Therefore, to penalize any lawyer that he or she will not be able to have their practising certificate renewed or not allowed to practise, that goes against the economic and human rights of an individual. It also goes to counter the Bill of Rights and that must be rejected. In any case, to sit in the JSC, the lawyers are elected.

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I stand to oppose this Bill in its current form. I am happy with the former speaker because she rightly put in the words for these miscellaneous amendments – it is an abomination. That is because you do not make laws like this.

The reasons are I am opposing this Bill are four. I will go to the specifics. The first one is that there are several proposals that are in contravention to the Constitution. If at all we let the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill pass in this form, then we will be contravening the Constitution in the various amendments that we make. The second reason I am opposed to this Bill is that public participation is a cardinal role of law making in this country and it is enshrined in Article 10 of the Constitution. You appreciate very well that there has not been sufficient public participation in the various legislation that we seek to amend.

The third reason I am opposing this Bill is that miscellaneous amendments are making fundamental changes to the various statutes, in fact, 49 of them and so, it does not really fit the bill of being called a Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill.

The fourth reason I am opposing this Bill is the un-procedural nature in which we are discussing and debating this Bill. I have already raised an issue on this matter for a couple of days. We are actually proceeding to debate this Bill without a committee report. You appreciate very well that debate should proceed only when we are comparing or juxtaposing the committee report versus the Bill that we are debating. That is the only way of sufficiently informing the debate on the Floor.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, those are the four reasons I am opposing this Bill, but now allow me to go to the specifics.

The first amendment I will start with is the one that hon. Alice Wahome has spoken to. The National Police Service Commission Act that is sought to be amended. It takes away the gains made by women in this country. This is also carried in the National Police Service (Amendment) Act which this House is presently considering. The women of this country as per Article 27(8) of the Constitution need to have their rights realized by having them represented, one-third of either gender each time an appointment is done or each time considerations are made. The National Police Service Commission (Amendment) Act seeks to make sure that it is not an obligation on the part of the

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Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I rise to oppose this Bill in its current form. Without repeating what has been said by others---

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On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. With all due respect to my good friend, hon. Muchai, I think he had spoken on this Bill earlier on. This can be confirmed in the HANSARD.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Mwaura, you have given yourself a role that is not yours. However, I can confirm that hon. Muchai has not spoken on this particular Bill. Hold on, hon. Muchai. Hon. Mwaura could be right. Have you spoken to this Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill? You know that you are not supposed to speak to a Bill twice.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, when I got the opportunity to speak to this Bill---

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): So, you have spoken?

Yes, but---

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Then you are out of order and I want to thank hon. Mwaura for doing work that is not his. He has done it well. I cannot allow you to continue speaking, hon. Muchai.

If you give me a hearing, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. There was very little time left when I was given an opportunity to speak. If I recall---

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Muchai, whatever you are saying maybe valid but, according to the Standing Orders, you have spoken to this and so, I will give a chance to the next speaker.

I thought I had some time left to speak to this Bill. Can that be confirmed?

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): It is confirmed. Please resume your seat. Let us not even go into debate on that. Hon. John Mbadi.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I stand to oppose the Bill in its current form. I am disturbed and shocked that this kind of legislation could come from the Attorney-General’s office. I want to speak to the Attorney-General and ask him to be serious whenever he is giving us the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill.

You will remember that in the last Parliament, the Speaker was very categorical and made a Communication that, that was the last time we were going to accept the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill to be discussed with substantive amendments to Statute laws. I expected that this time round, the Attorney-General would only have used this Bill to make small amendments or corrections to various statutes. But what he has done, and which has been introduced in this House, are serious amendments to various Statute Laws. The worst part of it is that this Bill is even attempting to amend the Constitution. I want to demonstrate how.

Looking at Clause 3 of the Schedule, it says that Cabinet Secretary means a person appointed as a Cabinet Secretary of the Government of Kenya under the

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(Hon. (Ms) Shebesh): Thank you, hon. Ng’ongo for your discipline. I can see the Deputy Leader of the Minority Party wants to speak. But because of your status and because you have been away, I will give you a chance. You know, when you are away, we lose institutional memory. So, do not be keeping off the House for too long, especially when we are at the state where we are passing very important laws. Go ahead hon. Midiwo.

Thank you hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. Thank you for welcoming me back. I was on duty. But I am back and I want to stand to oppose this draconian law. I was in the House Business Committee two weeks ago. I said it on the Floor that we are bringing down the Berlin Wall which divides us unnecessarily. I had the word of the House Business Committee and the Chair of the House Business Committee, who is the Speaker of this National Assembly. I had the word of the Majority Leader that this law is so big that we need time to look at it. To amend 49 statutes is not a small issue in our country. We said we want to do it together. We agreed we do it properly for the sake of our country. We brought that issue here on the Floor of the House on Thursday,

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On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I do not think it is in order for the Minority Leader to say that Madam Kaindi did not kill enough people in Nyanza. That is incitement and we cannot continue with business in this respectable House, when such a reputable person holding the highest office in this

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(Hon. (Ms) Shebesh): Hon. Kariuki Ndegwa, I think I could have seen you at the right time. But I think you are behind hon. Midiwo and I could not see your point of order. But I do know that I cringed when hon. Midiwo made that statement. Hon. Midiwo, you insinuated--- It is, of course, your right because what you are doing is debating. But I think for the sake of decorum and because of the position that you hold, could you just give comfort to the Member seated next to you that those words are not incitement?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, he is my neighbour and so, I will be cordial if I offended him. But I will only ask: What is wrong with Madam Kaindi? She is a perfect officer, a woman who has risen from the bottom to the top echelons of the Police Force. She is a perfect officer, in my view. So, I withdraw whatever may have offended my friend. Of course, he comes from Lamu where nobody lost any blood, leg or limb during the post-election violence. So, he does not know. He is there dealing with

. But let me say that the issue we are talking about is serious. Look at it this way;somebody now purports to take away the power of extradition from the Office of DPP to the Attorney-General. When we changed the Constitution, the role of the Attorney-General was to advise the Government---

(Hon. (Ms) Shebesh): The hon. Deputy Minority Leader is speaking. Please, give him time to be heard. It might be important to hear what he is saying.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, thank you for protecting me. Let me say this: When we passed the Constitution, what became of the role of the Attorney- General? The Attorney-General is now simply the adviser to the Executive. The DPP is now a constitutional office which is supposed to handle things like extradition. They are court matters. What is the interest of the Attorney-General, who is my friend, hon. Githu Muigai, that he wants powers to extradite? Who does he want to extradite? What does he want to do with it? It is mischievous. Those things are wrong in this law. Let me tell you that if we continue with this mischief, we will be doing more harm than good. Let me say this: If I was my friend hon. A.B. Duale, who is lucky to have super majority in this House – the rest of us may be irrelevant – but he needs to carry all of us along. If I was him, I would carry everybody along and whatever I do, I would use the numbers correctly, and not to hurt or harm Kenyans. We are in too many controversies. Let me say this lastly: The President and the Deputy need more peace today than they needed it two years ago. They need peace. We do not need to create chaos for them as a House. Those

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(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Thank you hon. Midiwo. Hon. Wa Kabando. He is another Member who has institutional memory.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. Could I request to sit because this thing is too short?

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): No, you could, maybe, go to another microphone or come to the Dispatch Box.

Why is it short? Thank you for giving me the permission. I will address three issues which I think constitute significant contention in this Bill.

Number one is on the NGOs. It is a two-pronged perspective.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): I can see a point of order from the Leader of Majority Party.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I do not want to interrupt my good friend but, because this Bill has been debated for long, maybe, you can reduce the time for Members who are yet to speak, so that--- You know we have only tomorrow for a number of other Bills. That way, everybody can speak.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Members, is that the feeling of the House; that we could reduce the time-frame?

Yes.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Your suggestion of reducing time, hon. Duale, is how many minutes?

Maybe, three minutes.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Members, we are going to be reducing the time to three minutes, so that we get all Members who have shown interest to be able to speak. Is that agreeable with the House? Is that the mood of the House?

Yes.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): So, hon. Wa Kabando, we are giving you three minutes.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I thought it would be effective after me, since I came prepared for the full time?

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Member, just bear with the House.

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Okay. I will comply with your instructions. On the NGO aspect, capping at 15 per cent, alongside many of my colleagues here who were the alumni of the civil society at one time, I can tell you that there are civil society organizations and public benefit organizations that derive their total funding externally and expend that total funding on humanitarian activities. It will be very limiting to limit them at 15 per cent. So, I think a review of this section is required, either to remove it totally and seek to track the financing of NGOs. That is the issue. We should know their funding sources. That is because we also know there may be “briefcase NGOs” that are misappropriating monies and they are operating secret accounts. But as we are trying to streamline those that are very wayward, we may end up suffocating the NGOs that deal with public health, reproductive health, child welfare and even education through financing orphans through bursaries and education in high schools and universities. So, on that particular aspect, I have difficulties approving the amendment.

Secondly, I was an Assistant Minister for Youth Affairs and Sports for five years. When we constituted the National Youth Council, it was a very rickety and contestable process and its completion was a sigh of relief. I am uncomfortable with a supervisory board that will end up being appointed wholly by a Cabinet Secretary controlling the National Youth Council. The Youth Council matter is not a time-bomb. It is blasting every day. That is why we are seeking the extension of the Uwezo Fund, Youth Enterprise Development Fund and so on. Having a supervisory board; that advisory and supervisory and seeking issues of the budget, I think you are telling those democratically elected people that they will be controlled.

Finally, on the question of the Kenya Defence Forces (KDF), I think this Parliament needs to sharpen its teeth. I am speaking with full understanding of my colleagues across the House. This business of talking about CORD and Jubilee every time and issues coming here, even seeking hypocrisy to hold Press conferences to blame one section of the House just because an issue has passed, is really immaturity and I think it is something that should come to an end. It is hypocrisy of the highest order. I seek to oppose so that we can seek redemption because that is the mood that is there. I seek to tell my counterparts on the CORD side to stop this hypocrisy and immaturity.

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. Is the speaker on the Floor in order to say that calling a Press conference is hypocrisy? I think there must be a purpose for calling a Press conference. You cannot call a Press conference for the sake of it. Could he withdraw?

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Member, shorten the time because this is important discussion. Hon. Isaak Mwaura.

Ahsante sana, Bi Naibu Spika wa Muda, kwa kunipa wakati huu. Kwa sababu muda umeyoyoma sana, hatutazungumza sana kama chiriku. Ningelipenda kusema yafuatayo.

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(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Wesley Korir.

Thank you so much hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this Bill. I stand to really oppose this Bill the way it is and as amended. The way the Attorney-General is trying to sneak in things in this Parliament, is not good. I think they know that most of us are new in this House and it will take us a lot of time to read this thing and understand at this short period.

But I want to contribute and add my voice on this issue of Public Benefits Organization Act – the NGOs issue. Many people in this House are here or have gone through life because of NGOs in one way or the other. You know that having 75 per cent of funds coming from this country is impossible. When you have many people suffering because of lack of money, it is important to support them. Even if you do harambee in this country, you will not even raise what an NGO can bring in one second. So, I oppose that. There are many places where they are deleting the words “with prior approval of the National Assembly”. I wonder why. Are they trying to get rid of what we are doing; as an oversight body of this country? We cannot allow that. If the Cabinet Secretaries are trying to give themselves so much power and take away the powers of this House, it will not be possible. That is why I completely oppose this thing.

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On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. We are discussing the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill. We are actually dealing with 49 Acts. Even if we are given three weeks, I do not think this House will come to any consensus. That is because in this Bill, we have some Acts which are---

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): So, what is out of order, hon. Washiali?

What I wanted to ask is this: Would I be in order to call the Mover to reply so that we can move to the Third Reading, where we will be able to clean up this Bill and move forward?

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Washiali, in many words, what you are asking is whether we can ask the Mover to reply. What is the mood of the House?

No!

Yes!

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Members, I must go with the mood of the House. But it must be clear to me whether you want me to ask the Mover to reply, so that we can go to the Third Reading and amendments or not.

We will now call upon the Mover to reply. Hon. Members, before the Mover replies, I would like you to allow me to give hon. Zuleikha Juma one minute because she has really been lobbying for this. Then I will ask the Mover to reply.

Thank you. Just quickly before I contribute, I just wanted to react to something that one of the Members said earlier on this Bill. That is at the time I was sitting here. That was hon. Sakaja. He said that he was the Chair of the Kenya Young Parliamentarians Association. I just wanted to say that I am the duly elected Chair.

I stand to oppose this Bill because of essentially what it says about the National Youth Council (NYC). One of the things that it has done is that it has removed--- There were eight nominated young members from the Council who had to be in the board. It has removed all the eight and so, there is no youth representation in the Board. Also, as alluded to by hon. Kabando wa Kabando, it says that the functions of the board should be changed from advisory to supervisory and approval of plans, financial statements and so on must be ensured.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker, the NYC as it is, is stifled by the Ministry through the Directorate of the Youth. For instance---

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(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Zuleikha, I gave you one minute because of the passion on this issue. Please, wind up.

Okay. I just want to say that I oppose that and we will be bringing amendments to this House. Thank you.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Leader of Majority Party.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I want to confirm that I have talked to the Deputy Leader of Minority Party. We make laws for posterity. That is why we are different from the Executive. We are different from the Attorney-General. We are different from anybody who wants to bring mischief to this House. I want to confirm thatI am good recipient of donor money. I want to confirm that I will withdraw the amendment on the Public Benefits Act. I will withdraw the one on the Salaries and Remuneration Commission. The one on gender is unconstitutional. We want our women to rise up in the Police Force. I will withdraw that. So, out of the 49 statutes, I will withdraw those ones and any other issue which is contentious. We will have a consensus. We will perform. I want to say that let us have that spirit that we have consensus.

On a point of order.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): I wish you would wait for the Mover to complete because the point of order would interrupt--- Anyway, because of time, let the Majority Leader conclude his remarks.

At the end of the day, we should make laws that are for generations. I happened to be in the last Parliament. I participated in the Public Benefits Act enactment. The way hon. Zuleikha said, even the one on the youth, please, improve on the one you brought. Improve the one on NHIF. That is the essence of Third Reading. There are a number of laws that are also beneficial to the Executive. The one of the Vetting of Judges and Magistrates is very crucial. We are here to make sure that, at the end of the day, what comes out of the House will benefit the Republic of Kenya. I want to confirm that, that will happen and I beg to move.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Members, we have come to the end of session for today morning. The House stands adjourned until this afternoon at 2.30 p.m.

The House rose at 12.30 p.m.

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