Hon. Members, I would like the Quorum Bell to be rung. We do not have quorum.
Hon. Members, we now have quorum. We may begin the business of today.
Is there any Member with a notice of Motion? Hon. Wangamati. You are listed to give a notice of Motion. He is not here? Next Order!
Okay. Today being the day that we get responses to Statements, we will go by the order as in the Order Paper. I do not see any of the Chairs who have been asked to respond. We want the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security to respond, following a request by the Member for Turkana, hon. Nakuleu. Okay! He is there. Is hon. Nakuleu in the House? He is around. Okay. Then you may proceed. EVICTION OF MPS FROM SAMBURU COUNTY
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. On 19th March 2014, the Member of Parliament for Turkana North Constituency, hon. Christopher Nakuleu, requested for a Statement on the alleged attack and eviction of three Members The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Okay. We will give the first chance to hon. Nakuleu.
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I wish to thank the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security for making an attempt to respond to my request. From the bottom of my heart, it is my assumption that the Chairperson, hon. Kamama, is not really satisfied and convinced with the Statement that he has given since it does not give a reflection of what I sought. Two, the Statement is a mere response that has been in this House for quite some time. It has been prepared by the CS. Hon. Deputy Speaker, I want a clarification on circumstances under which a very calm community would mobilise itself against visiting leaders who came for a church funds-drive. Under what circumstances would the community mobilise itself against such visitors. Two, hon. Deputy Speaker, the response does not give the precise information that the County Commandant of Police gave us. When the County Commandant of Police visited the hotel, he met the three of us. He briefed us that he was just from Yare Restaurant where the Governor and the Member of Parliament for Samburu West were hosting a delegation. There is a lot of distortion of the information since it does not reflect the exact scenario and situation that took place. To add on to that, those of us who were victims would have been called to appear before the Committee and the CS. Hon. Deputy Speaker, when I requested for this Statement in April, I pleaded with the Speaker that we be called to appear before the Committee and the CS when this Statement was being compiled and nothing was done. Now, what will prevent our community from doing the same when leaders of other communities visit our area? If a very dangerous scenario like that is taken casually against the leadership of other communities, then is that not gross intimidation? I am not at all satisfied with the response and I wish the CS revisits it in the presence of the three of us.
Okay. Your point has been made. Any other clarifications before we return back to the Statement? Hon. Benson Mulu.
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I have keenly listened to the Chair when he was giving the response. In that response, there is a statement which is a bit worrying. The Chairperson has said that the police are not aware of that incident. This is not the first time I am hearing that statement come from that Committee - in a situation where hon. Members have reported something as serious as this, and the police say that they are not aware. Is it an indication that the hon. Members are cheating or they are not being honest with themselves? This statement is a bit worrying! Maybe, the Chairperson can clarify. Thank you.
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I have listened very keenly when the Chairperson was responding to this question. It is time we took things very seriously when hon. Members complain. It is not just merely complaining, but there is a reason. I want to find that out from the Chairperson of that Committee because the incident happened long time ago. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Okay, hon. Rotino. Hon. John Serut. Hon. Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security, I hope you are noting. Your answers are becoming monotonous; they are not giving the way forward in terms of how they are being responded to.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I have listened to the response given to the Statement sought by my brother, hon. Nakuleu. I am shocked that the same question was referred to the same people whom the hon. Member was complaining about. Could the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security consider talking to the Cabinet Secretary (CS), Interior and Coordination of National Government and other security agents to ensure that when a complaint is raised against officers in a particular area, the same officers are not allowed to investigate themselves so that we get the correct position on some of those issues?
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. When you listen to the Statement that has been issued by my Chairman - because I belong to the Departmental Committee of Administration and National Security - it is shocking me. Being one of the victims who were attacked, I thought we were to appear before that Committee so that we could provide some information. That is because we were involved in that incident and we had more information than anybody else. But I am shocked to hear from the Chairman that the police are not aware of what happened. At the same time, it is the same police commander who reported to us at midnight on that particular day. We were to leave Maralal that midnight to another place because some people were re-grouping to attack us. How come that the same police commander is saying that he is not aware of that particular incident? Hon. Deputy Speaker, this is something which has been taken lightly and no one wants to take responsibility. If the Chair says that the Statement that was sought by hon. Nakuleu--- If you look at the question and the response, they are not matching at all. It means that these responses to statements are just written - and I do not know from where. I am not even sure if that commander was called and interrogated so that he could give some information on what transpired on that particular day. Therefore, according to me, this is a shoddy job and we need to revoke it so that some of us who were attacked can appear before the Committee and provide information on what happened on that particular day. Hon. Deputy Speaker, during that particular day, we did not report to the police that we were under attack. It is the police who reported to us that there were people who were re-grouping. Therefore, I do not understand why the police are again saying that The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I also sympathize with my colleagues and I would like to ask the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security to clarify whether, due to insecurity in this country, senior police officers do not have the powers to transfer the police officer who was there. After listening to my colleagues, that was a very serious case. Some Members of Parliament were attacked. I have also heard similar problems and when you ask the Inspector-General (I-G), he says that some police officers do not have powers to transfer others until they go to the Kavuludi Commission. Could he clarify whether that is true so that this House can amend the law to give senior police officers some powers to transfer their officers?
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I do empathize with my colleagues in Parliament and I would like the Chairperson to clarify on what security is offered for a hon. Member. When hon. Members of Parliament were attacked in a dangerous place and they were to be moved away at night, what security measures and what plans are there to offer better security to Members of Parliament?
Okay. Hon. Chairman, you can see the interest because this matter is concerning hon. Members of this august House. If they cannot be provided with security, and if that attack can happen to hon. Members, what about the public? I want to agree with hon. Members that your response is totally general and is not real. The fact that you did not even call the hon. Members who were victims in that attack to give their side of the story is really not acceptable in this House. We need to take this House seriously and, particularly, on matters that concern your own colleagues, I would expect that, at least, there would have been much more care taken in the response. We are not more special than others, but because at the level that you are, you should get security when you are out of your station. Hon. Chairman, what do you have to say because you will have to re-do this Statement because it is not satisfactory at all?
Hon. Deputy Speaker, first of all, I just want to say it is not constitutional. It is actually unconstitutional for anybody to deny any hon. Member or even members of the public to visit any part of the country. This is because that is provided for in law and in the Constitution. Therefore, if anybody attempted to prevent the three hon. Members from visiting Maralal, I think it is not legal and it is unconstitutional. Hon. Deputy Speaker, the tradition in this House has been that when a statement is read out and the hon. Member is not satisfied, the matter is referred back to the Committee. The Cabinet Secretary is called to come and do a proper and comprehensive clarification on this. We have done this many times and I know the hon. Member, my good friend, Christopher Nakuleu, has actually asked these questions on several occasions. But the response has been interfered with by recess. Every time he asks this question, the recess approaches. Therefore, this Statement ends up being postponed. Therefore, I want to confirm first, like we did before we went for recess, we had four statements. One was for hon. Kolele of Laikipia, hon. Ndegwa on somebody who was killed in Embakasi and the hon. Members of Parliament from Marsabit on the issue The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Order, hon. Members! The consultations are too high! We cannot hear the response.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I want to confirm to hon. Nakuleu that it is wrong for any group of leaders or anybody to conspire to deny hon. Members an opportunity to hold a church harambee . It is not within the beacons of the law and so, I want to agree with him. I also want to agree with hon. Akuja and hon. Mulu that is not possible for the same officers who went and reported the matter to the same officers to deny that they have no such information. That is a bit paradoxical. When the CS comes, these matters will be addressed.
On a point of order, hon. Deputy Speaker. I want to raise an issue of concern in terms of interventions. I am a Member of this Committee and when hon. Members are questioning and referring to this Statement as inadequate, as a Committee’s response, I do not remember the Committee being seized of this matter in any way. Therefore, I think this was initially a Statement by the Chairperson. It is unfortunate because the Committee cannot continue taking responsibility when the matter has not come before it. I would agree with our Chairperson that the matter needs to go back to the Committee. But it should not be taken as if the Committee has actually engaged in this matter.
That is a clarification from the Committee. Hon. Mulu, do you still have another point of order on the same?
Yes, hon. Deputy Speaker. What we are hearing from the hon. Member is very disturbing. She is telling this House that the Statement the Chairperson has issued in this House is an individual Statement. So, is this in order? Is this the right procedure that a Member of a Committee can stand in this House and say what has been said?
Remember that responses to Statements come from the CSs. They do not come from the chairpersons but we expect that they would be prosecuted, at least, in a Committee meeting so that, even the other hon. Members are aware of the questions that have been brought to them and the responses. Even at that point, you could even have decided at the Committee meeting that the answer is inadequate and, therefore, you need the CS to be called. That way, we do not bring half answered statements that you need to go back and repeat the process which could have been handled before bringing the answer here. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, first of all, I want to confirm to hon. Mulu – and it is common sense - that this is not my personal statement. I would like to remind hon. (Ms.) Wahome that I do not miss most of the meetings. But when I tell some hon. Members that we have a number of questions, most probably, she was not there when I was telling them this. So, I will encourage hon. Members to be present most of the times because, sometimes, I am present for like three hours and an hon. Member just comes for 30 minutes. Sometimes, they do not even appear. So, I would encourage hon. (Ms.) Wahome to be attending those meetings on regular basis so that she knows what is happening in the Committee.
This is a topic that can take us a long time and so, we are not going there. Proceed to complete what you are saying!
Order, hon. Members!
On a point of order, hon. Deputy Speaker. going by the fact that it is now basically agreed that the response given by the Chair is not satisfactory, would I be in order to suggest, therefore, that, instead of spending more time attempting to respond to supplementary questions, he goes back to the CS and then come back with a more comprehensive response to the original question? This will save Parliament’s time.
That sounds like a reasonable way forward. Hon. Members, the point has been made that we are dissatisfied. Let us now not start asking who is right, who is not right and whose information is correct. The best way forward for now, hon. Abongotum, since we have said that this needs to be re-done, we do not want to spend time now and again on the same Statement. Just go and do it properly, invite the Members who were involved in this, let them give you their side and investigate it thoroughly, and then bring us a comprehensive answer.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, when we invite the CS together with hon. Members, sometimes, the hon. Member if given sufficient information to the level where we do not need to bring it back here. If he is satisfied at the Committee level, that would be fine.
That is true!
So, in two weeks time, we will invite the CS and the three hon. Members and any other interested party to the Committee so that we can prosecute this matter to its logical conclusion.
Just publicize it!
We will do so, hon. Deputy Speaker.
Publicize when that meeting is going on. Any hon. Member interested can then go and get that information. Not all of it needs to come back to the Floor. You can finish it at the Committee level.
Much obliged hon. Deputy Speaker. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Okay! Let us move to the next response. Again, it is yours, hon. Abongotum. It was asked by hon. Wafula. Is Hon. Wafula in the House? ALLEGED CORRUPTION IN THE DEPARTMENT OF IMMIGRATION
Hon. Deputy Speaker, on 12th March, 2014, hon. Wafula requested for a Ministerial Statement on alleged corruption cases in the Department of Immigration. The hon. Member informed the House that in the recent past, there have been alleged cases of corruption at the Department of Immigration and, subsequently, investigations into the matter were undertaken by the national investigations agency and, consequently, a number of officers were suspended. The hon. Member particularly sought to be informed on the following:- (i) The findings of the preliminary investigations and the allegations. (ii) The details of the officers suspended, designation and status of the suspensions. (iii) Why the suspensions were discriminatory against officers at lower cadres. I wish to respond as follows:- The Department vide letter Ref.No.IMM5/6/7/Vol.1(64) dated 18th July, 2013, requested the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC) to conduct integrity testing of systems and staff at all passports issuing centers. That is at the JKIA and all border controls under the integrity testing programme. This is an ongoing programme and, so far, the Commission has conducted random integrity tests in the department and forwarded to us their report on the findings for necessary administrative action. The following cases of officers have been filed. The names of those who have failed the test have already been forwarded to us and we have taken the required action as indicated. There is of course--- I have given that work to hon. Wekesa. There are three officers with their personal numbers, designations, job groups and case status. I do not know whether it will be in order that I read their names. Do I have your permission?
Yes, you may read them. It is now a public document in the House.
Okay. Officer number one is a lady called Joyce Gesare Mainye, Personal No.1984142054 and designation is Principal--- I think PSC Job Group K. The officer was interdicted and the case is ongoing at the Human Resource Management Advisory Committee. Number two is Mose Okoth Oloo, Personal Number 20005026904. He is a Senior Immigration Officer Job Group L. The officer was interdicted and the case is ongoing at the same Human Resource Management Advisory Committee. Number three is Ezekiel Otiende, Personal Number 2007134591. He is in Job Group K. The officer was interdicted and the case is ongoing at the Ministerial Human Resource Management and Advisory Committee. Number four is Humphrey Marete Mbugi, Personal Number 2007136682. He is in Job Group K. The officer was interdicted and the case is ongoing at the same advisory committee. It is worth noting that any officer failing an integrity test regardless of his or her rank is dealt with in accordance with the existing code of regulations. However, in the case of the above mentioned officers, the tests were carried out at the targeted front offices and banking halls where duties are normally assigned to lower cadre officers. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Okay, hon. Wekesa. You get the first chance to get your clarification.
Let me thank the Chairman for a very brief response. I do recall that when I asked for this Statement, I said I am not in a hurry to receive the answer. I was even ready to wait for two months. However, I am not satisfied with his response. To me, it appears like a public relations exercise between the Chairman or the Committee and the ministry. In my first request, I wanted to know the findings of the allegation towards those who have been suspended, even though we have been given four names. I wanted to know exactly the mistakes they committed. Secondly, it is obvious or an open thing to the House and even to the public that officers from the Department of Immigration, including the Director, were summoned to the Integrity House and we all know what happened on the first day. Then they went there the other day. We want to know the results of the investigations that were undertaken at Integrity House. Thank you Deputy Speaker.
Okay. Now, these other Members, do you want clarifications on the same. Hon. Kisoi, do you want clarification on the same or you are on a different on? Your light is on, hon. Gichigi? Not on this one. Hon. Ochieng, is yours on the same?
Thank you so much hon. Deputy Speaker. I think the issue raised by the hon. Member is very important. I just wanted to know why the Chair could not take this opportunity to deliver a comprehensive statement on the status of the Immigration Department in this country today and why he should not take this opportunity to tell this country the plans it has. What is happening on the issue of terrorism and runaway crime? I thought the Chair should have taken this opportunity to tell this House and the country the plans that have been put in place by the department concerned to address issues of corruption. What they are doing in avenues relating to fighting of runaway crime? If you could do that, I think it would help this House. It would reduce the number of questions that would be raised in this regard.
Okay. That is a clarification. Hon. Njagagua
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I was just wondering - and I am seeking your good counsel and guidance on this matter. When a Member rises or seeks a Statement from a Committee Chair or from a certain committee, there are specific queries that they raise. When we come here and we receive the responses, certain Members are very fast from the starting block to tell the Chairman of the committee what he should have said. Is that really in order, when we know the Statement never sought--- For instance, in the current situation today, we are being told that the Chairman should have told us about the current status at the Immigration Department and the investigations that were carried out. What we are doing about anti-terrorism. Was that specifically asked by the Member who sought that Statement? If it was not sought, then it is good to know that what you seek is what you get. Thank you.
Yeah! That seems to me to be a good point. Now, these other Members, before I give back to the owner of the question, are you seeking clarification on the same?
Yes! The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
So, I do not know from which point. Is it hon. Mule? Because the first two I had called said no, so, where are we? Are you on the same?
Thank you Deputy Speaker, I request for a clarification on that because if you look at the Statement which has been read by the Chairman of the Committee in charge of security, as the owner of the question has said, he is very brief. If you look at the entire department, we want to know what the Government is doing to curb corruption within the entire Department of Immigration. This is the most serious entry point of violence in this country. We know very well that most of the people who are coming into the country without being screened by those officers and, at the end of the day, corruption takes centre stage at the entry points and they get their way into the country. We want to know exactly what measures has the Government put in place to curb corruption within the Department.
Okay, hon. Bowen.
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I think this is an issue that we had in the last Session before we went on recess. I asked a similar question to do with work permits in the Immigration Department. It is in the Ministry or Department of Immigration where corruption in this country is perpetrated.
Order Members! Hon. Ochieng and hon. Wandayi, please, find a better place to carry on with your consultations.
The insecurity that we have in this country is because of the corrupt immigration officials, especially at the border points. What I want to ask the Chairman is to tell this House, apart from the few, those are just small junior officers because from the position you are reading, you are reading people of job groups K and L. Those are very junior officers. We want to know what the Government is doing seriously, if possible, to overhaul the whole immigration management; so that we can end this corruption that we have seen in the immigration borders and which has led to the runaway insecurity in the country. The bombings we are seeing around is because of the bribery and the corruption at the border points. The youth unemployment in the country is because the Immigration Department is giving out work permits for employment which is supposed to be done by Kenyans in the name of specialization. It is not specialized at all. We have very skilled Kenyans who can do that work but ever Thursdays, there are meetings at the Immigration Department.
Now, hon. Bowen, are you still on this question or you have got your own question now? That is because you seem to be answering a different question. Hon. Ibrahim Sane!
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I would like to seek some clarification on the same matter. Actually, the response of the Chair is so brief compared The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Hon. Members, I want to agree with hon. Njagagua. What you are now going into are things which are not in the question. Your own question states that the Department carried out investigations into the matter. The investigations were undertaken by the national investigations agency. You say that, consequent to the investigations, a number of officers were suspended. The response the Minister has given is in respect to the number of officers that were suspended. They have not gone into the details because investigations are not complete. The issue has moved to a different body. That is my understanding of this question. If Members wanted the state of the Immigration Department, then that is an issue that can be handled by a Committee in terms of a report and not as a Statement. It could come as a report from the Committee giving us the full status of the Immigration Department in the country currently, in the past and the future plans. That is a completely different Statement from the one that we have before us, in my view.
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. Indeed, I said that Kenya has suffered a lot as a result of massive corruption in the Immigration Department. I agree with all what the Members of Parliament have raised here. A lot of legal Kenyan documents, starting from birth certificates, IDs, work permits and so on are in the wrong hands. I am requesting the Chairperson of this Committee to come back with a very comprehensive response after the investigations.
Okay. Chairperson, in my view, they are really two different matters. The Members seem to want the status of the Immigration Department. Concerning your question, I think it is sufficiently answered. The question that Members are seeking an answer to is the one on the status of the Immigration Department. That is a matter that can be taken up by the Committee. We do not even need to ask a question.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, to the best of my knowledge, the question is sufficiently addressed. But the issues that were raised by hon. Mule, hon. Ochieng, hon. Bowen and others--- The Statement that was requested has actually been sufficiently addressed. On the issue of the status of Immigration Department as requested by hon. Ochieng, I think that is totally a different question and it needs a comprehensive report from the Committee. If he really wants it, then I want to request him to request for a special Statement in that regard and---
Hon. Kamama, I have just said that you do not need a Statement. You can see that it is the interest of Members. It is a topic they would like you to come and give a report on.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, in a nutshell, I would like to tell Members that the Government is taking the issue of corruption in the Immigration Department very seriously. It is in the public domain that the Director of the Immigration Department---
You are not giving us the Statement now. You have been asked to go and carry out investigations and then bring a comprehensive report.
Investigations on corruption and what else? The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
On the status of the Immigration Department. What is happening there? What measures are being taken to curb corruption? That is a full report.
Suppose I have all the knowledge, I can inform the House in a nutshell on what we are doing. I can remember everything. Hon. Deputy Speaker, if you allow me, I can remember everything and I can tell the House what the Committee is doing.
No! Not now. We do not have the time now.
Okay. Let me respond to what hon. Bowen asked. On the issue of work permits, something is being done. That section in the Immigration Department has been streamlined and the threshold has been raised to the extent that if a foreigner wants to come to this country, there must be a lot of justification. First of all, one has to have a degree and must be able to add value. In most cases, they have minimized the number of approvals. So, that issue is being addressed. On the issue that was raised by hon. Wekesa, about the reasons for interdiction, it is because they failed an integrity test by the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission. So, they just failed the integrity test which is close to corruption. That is the case. If the House requires a status report, that I can do in a month’s time.
The next Statement is still yours. I do not know how quickly you will handle it. The request was made by hon. Emanikor. Is she in the House? Yes, she is. Please, summarize your report. BODA BODA RIOTS IN LODWAR TOWN
Hon. Deputy Speaker, on 24th April, 2014, the Member of Parliament for Turkana County, hon. Joyce Emanikor requested for a Statement regarding the protest by boda boda operators against exorbitant and unaffordable fines for lack of helmets which resulted to loss of life and destruction of property. The hon. Member informed the House that in dispersing the youth, the police officers used live bullets and, in the process, the Officer Commanding Station (OCS) shot dead Mr. Eregai Kapua while Mr. Paul Mburu was shot on both legs and hospitalized at Lodwar County referral hospital. The Member sought to be particularly informed on the following:- (i) Why the OCS authorized the use of live bullets on unarmed protesting youth. (ii) Action that has been taken and will be taken against the officer involved; the measures taken by the Government to restore order and assure the business community of security in Lodwar Town. (iii) Whether the Government will meet the cost of treating the injured person and the burial cost of the dead. (vi) The deterrence measures that the Government will put in place to avoid similar incidents in future. (v) The Government’s plan to assist the boda boda operators in the country in terms of training on road use and traffic requirements, considering that most of them cannot afford formal training. Following a series of serious accidents involving motor cyclists in Turkana County, most of which were caused by unlicensed and incompetent riders, the police The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Yes, hon. Joyce Emanikor.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I am surprised that the Chairman’s narration is a list of injuries sustained by police officers. He has not actually addressed the question. I asked why the police used live bullets on unarmed youths, and what action has been taken against the police officer who shot dead one of the youths and injured another. Those questions have not been answered. The only question that the Chairman has answered is the fact that the Government is not compensating the costs that I have highlighted. He also said that the fines ranged between Kshs2,000 and Kshs3,000. The youths were fined between Kshs10,000 and Kshs15,000. Actually, Kshs10,000 was the least. He only talked of running battles. There were shootings. People were killed. You cannot equate chest injuries to deaths and the gun shot injuries that the youths sustained. Therefore, I am dissatisfied because the Question has not been answered. Thank you.
Do I see a further clarification request by hon. Wandayi?
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I have been listening keenly to the Chair as he gave his response to the Statement request.
Order, hon. Members! Your consultations are too high!
Hon. Deputy Speaker, it would be important that the Chair comes back to this House with a comprehensive policy statement from the Government because what they are talking about in terms of boda boda operators clashing with the police is simply the symptoms of the problem. The root cause is obviously unemployment. So, could the Chair come back to the House with a more comprehensive policy statement on what the Government is planning to do in the short-term and the long-term in so far as tackling the issue of unemployment is concerned?
Hon. Wandayi, do you not think that you are loading the Chairman with too much?
Hon. Deputy Speaker, the issues are tied. The issues of insecurity and boda boda riders cannot be separated from that of unemployment. More importantly, since boda boda is a phenomenon that is here to stay with us due to the Government’s failure to tackle unemployment, could the Chair come back and inform us what measures the Government is putting in place to ensure that motorcycle boda boda riders are trained by the Government? The Government has a duty and responsibility to train boda boda operators, so that they can be able to ride on our roads safely. Thank you.
Yes, hon. Timothy Wanyonyi! The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. First, I would like to declare that I am a Member of the Committee and proceed to seek clarification from the Chair. If I heard him right, he said something about Government’s plans to train bodaboda riders. I do not know how the Government plans to do so, and how they are going to come up with such a programme. If the Government has such plans, when is it going to be done, how, from where and when?
Okay, hon. Francis Waititu
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I want the Chair to clarify whether he now understands that there is a devolved government. Are they going to give some responsibilities of training boda boda people to the county government, especially the governors, before the national government comes in? What are you doing to enable the governors train boda boda riders ?
Hon. Paulata Korere
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I wish the Chair of the Committee would have clarified what action the Government intends to take on the police men who are using live bullets on peaceful demonstrations. I think that habit by the police is going out of hand. Recently in Laikipia, most hon. Members of this House saw the police dragging me on the tarmac and firing live bullets on 250 women from my constituency who were just demonstrating peacefully. I still carry the spent cartridges of the live bullets which were fired by the police. It is a high time we have the Cabinet Secretary (CS) coming to answer those questions here. That is because some of the responses they give in this House are actually demeaning and disgusting!
Okay. Hon. Christopher Nakuleu.
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I wish to seek a clarification on two issues. The boda boda association in Lodwar has got some form of leadership. If there was a misunderstanding between the boda boda operators and the police, the police hierarchy ought to have consulted the leadership of the boda boda association. This issue ought to have been resolved forthwith. My question is this: Why has the Kenya Police formed a habit of taking the law into its hand, even in situations where methods of resolving disputes are very clear? Secondly, the Government has said that it is not ready to foot the bills of those victims of the conflict and yet, the Government is the custodian of security apparatus. It has an opportunity to protect the lives of those people. My opinion is that the Government is trying to abdicate its role and it must meet the medical bills of all those who suffered in the course of the police and boda boda operators conflict. Thank you.
Okay. Chairman, please, respond quickly and briefly. Try to summarize the answers. We keep repeating this. Time is not on our side.
The clarifications were also many but I will ---
But some of them are saying the same thing.
I will be very brief, hon. Deputy Speaker. I will start by saying that the police are not authorized to use live bullets, unless when their lives are threatened. That is very clear and even the National Police Service Bill that we passed recently in this House has those provisions. So, it is only when their lives are threatened. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
These hon. Members also, it is not in order for you to seek a clarification and then you leave the Chamber. Do not even continue on that because the hon. Member is not there to listen to the clarification. Please, move to another issue.
So, on the issue of live or blank cartridges, it can only be done by ballistic experts. It is not easy. You can actually see a cartridge from a blank bullet. That is for experts to determine.
Lastly, on the question by hon. Nakuleu, I think the concern is okay. But we need, as a House, to vote for this money. If you want the medical bills of anybody who is involved in an accident in this country to be footed by the Government, you need to appropriate funds. I think the Budget and Appropriations Committee can handle that if it is acceptable. So far, there is no vote to take care of that. Thank you.
Okay hon. Members, that brings us to the end of Statement responses. We now want to move to the next Order.
The hon. Millie Odhiambo.
Thank you, hon. Speaker. I had already commenced moving and I just want to say that this Bill, from what is provided in the long title, is an Act of Parliament to give effect to Article 59 of the Constitution to provide for protection of victims of crime and abuse of power and to provide them--- Yes, hon. Deputy Speaker. To provide for reparation and compensation to victims, to provide special protection for vulnerable victims and for connected purposes. If you look at Article 50(9) of the Constitution that it seeks to give effect to, it provides that:- “(9) Parliament shall enact legislation providing for the protection, rights and welfare of victims of offences”. This law mainly seeks to give effect to Article 50(9) of the Constitution. What informed this law was the way the law treat victims vis-a-vis the offender. I want to seek your indulgence. I know that you are not supposed to read but I am referring to my notes on the IPad, so that it does not appear that I am reading and also because we reduced time and it is very short to move this. What informed this was the way the law treats victims vis-a-vis the offenders.
Order, Members! When the business of this House begins, your legislative function starts. Please, Members, can we give the Member a chance? Remember we have been saying that we have so many Private Members’ Bills which have not been passed. So, can we give each other time so that we can prosecute them quickly?
Hon. Deputy Speaker, it is presumed that the State will treat the victims with dignity and protect their rights. But that is not the case. If you look at Articles 49 and 50 of the Constitution on what the Constitution provides on the offender, you will find that you have very lengthy provisions in relation to offenders of crimes. But when you look at the victims of crime, there is very little. It is only a paragraph that some of us pushed through when we were doing the constitutional review process. If I go to the Bill, it defines the victim of crime as any natural person who The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Order, Members! The consultations are too high. Please, Members, we do not want to repeat this. We have just started and we do not want to start throwing people out of the chamber. Please, consult quietly.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, they are actually not interrupting me. So, I can proceed. Being sensitive to special circumstances of victims like religion, age, right to legal and social services and protection of vulnerable victims. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Thank you very much, hon. Deputy Speaker. First, I would like to congratulate my very able sister for bringing this particular Bill. I really think it takes the hawk eyes of a serious legislator to see that there is a lacuna in the law. Article 50 of the Constitution is very robust in terms of providing for fair hearing processes and also providing for the offenders of crime, but pays very little attention to victims of those crimes and, of course, Parliament is under obligation under Article 59 of the Constitution to enact such a law. Actually, Parliament is being compelled under Article 59 of the Constitution to provide for legislation to protect victims and I really think this particular Bill was long overdue. I think it is really ripe. Hon. Deputy Speaker, hon. Millie Odhiambo, of course, has taken us through the various provisions of the Bill. But I would like to speak to a couple of specifics of the Bill. One, the Bill provides for the protection of victims of crime and abuse of power. You appreciate that there are often times when people are victims of crime and yet, they are treated like the ones who are criminals in the first instance. Half of them are not given information which this Bill seeks to do. The Bill will be compelling the various Government agencies to provide the victims of crime with better information and proper support services. Of course, she has enumerated how victims stay in court not knowing that there are issues taking place or not being given sufficient information in terms of how to help them get justice and this Bill seems to do actually that. The Bill also provides for reparation and compensation of victims. Quite often, you have criminals being charged and people being jailed for acts that they did, but no one ever bothers about compensation of the victims. So, I really think offering reparations and also compensating the victims is something that ought to have been considered and I really think this Bill does well in terms of enumerating how that is going to happen. It also speaks to the provision of special protection to vulnerable victims of crime and many times, the people who are victims of crime have been treated in manners that reduce or diminish their dignity and I really think that anchoring that in law is sufficient and very useful. Hon. Deputy Speaker, the Bill does provide in Article 3(c) to promote co-operation between all Government departments and organisations involved in working with victims of crime. You appreciate that half the people who are engaged in the justice process face a number of conflicts. Those are the people in the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) Office, the police and the Administration Police (AP). All the people who work with the victims half the time are not working in harmony and, sometimes, it makes it really difficult in terms of ensuring that the victims get justice when the issues are coming in place. So, there is, therefore, need to have people who are working with victims to work together as inter-agencies in a manner that is well co-ordinated. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I rise to support this particular Bill and I will begin by congratulating the Drafter and Mover of this Bill. It is true that our current Constitution has gone a long way to take care of the rights of---
Hon. Gichigi, we have an intervention by hon. Chepkong’a. What is your point of order?
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I have consulted with the Mover of the Bill and we have agreed that the Bill be stood over; the reason being that this matter is still pending before our Committee. We had a retreat in Naivasha where the stakeholders met. We are meeting the Witness Protection Agency who will be making a presentation with regard to the amendments that we are seeking to make in this Bill. We hope to file our report by Tuesday next week and so, pursuant to Standing Order No.96, I beg to move that the debate be now adjourned pending the filing of the Committee’s report on Tuesday. I have the concurrence of the Mover of the Bill. Thank you.
Okay. Who is seconding you? Do you have a seconder to your proposal?
The Mover herself.
Is it procedural?
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I will ask hon. Millie Odhiambo-Mabona to second it.
That is okay.
Yes, hon. Deputy Speaker. We have already spoken and, therefore, I second.
THE PHYSIOTHERAPIST BILL The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Hon. Members, I have been informed that the next Order had been deferred to allow the Committee to complete its report. I want to find out from the Mover whether that is the position. Hon. Lenard Sang.
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I hereby wish to inform this House that the Bill has rightly been referred to the Departmental Committee on Health where I am a member. We have discussed with the leadership of the Committee and we are finalizing the report. We wish to beg that we defer this Bill to next week on Wednesday. Thank you.
Okay. That Order also is deferred.
Are you on a point of order, hon. (Ms.) Nyamai?
Yes, hon. Deputy Speaker, thank you. I beg to move the following Motion:- THAT, pursuant to provisions of Standing Order 97, this House resolves that the debate on the Bills appearing under Orders Nos.11 and 12 be limited to a maximum period of one hour and thirty minutes; with five minutes for each hon. member and ten minutes for the Leaders of Majority and Minorities Parties; five minutes for the Mover in moving and five minutes in replying. Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker.
What reason do you have for this?
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I am bringing up this Motion because we have so many Private Members Motions that need to be prosecuted and many hon. Members would like to get involved in contributing to them. That is the only way many hon. Members can have a chance to speak to the Motions. Thank you.
Do you have a Seconder to your Motion?
I hereby request hon. Benjamin Langat to second the Motion. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I wish to second the Procedural Motion. If you look at the Bills listed on the Order Paper, some of them are just amendment Bills and they have just one or two pages. We have Bills which are big. Even in the House of Commons, those Bills which are small in size, do not pass through the procedures because they have just one or two lines. Therefore, I think even going forward in this House, we need to see Bills which really require going full-length and determining how many hours we should spend on the Bill given the size. Therefore, I would want to support the Motion in that respect; that every Bill is seen in its own merit, given the size, so that we allocate time according to the size of each Bill. Therefore, I would like to second and urge hon. Members to support the Motion so that we can become efficient in this House as we transact more Bills going forward. I have seen the Order for Private Members Bills. I think in addition to what the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Health is proposing, I would propose that we look at how to create more time so that we are able to clear those Bills as soon as possible. I have also seen that we are postponing Bills because Committees have not acted on them. Our Standing Orders are clear that you can debate a Bill even if the Committee has not finished its work on the Bill. Therefore, I want to second and ask hon. Members to support. Thank you.
Hon. Members, that is in order.
On a point of order, hon. Deputy Speaker. Just for clarity, I just want to know because the last time; just before we went on recess hon. Gladys Nyasuna Wanga had moved a similar Motion. I do not know why we are moving this because I am presuming that, that Motion that hon. (Ms.) Nyasuna moved still stays. That is the reason why I have moved my Bill for ten minutes. I had a balance of eight minutes. Having said that, I would also want to ask the House Business Committee, because from what I am hearing from the Mover, it seems to be a little different from what the Seconder is saying. I was actually just about to move a similar Motion before they did theirs. But my Motion was to extend the time. The reason I was going to give--- I do not know if I repeat myself.
Yes. That is because you were talking while I was getting some guidance.
I was just saying that last time, before we went on recess, hon. (Ms.) Nyasuna had moved a similar Motion which I presume still stands. I do not know the essence of moving a similar Motion. Secondly, just before this Motion was moved, I was about to move a similar Motion but the opposite, seeking to allocate more time. I am raising the point of order in respect to what the Seconder did. While speaking, he said that we will be targeting specific Bills. But while moving, I did not hear the Mover talk about targeting specific The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I just wanted to clarify that I am referring to Order Nos.11 and 12 for today. I feel that hon. Langat and I spoke to the same matter but only that he gave an exemption to Bills where we may seek an extension if it requires more time. I hope that this is in order. In addition to this, looking at the Private Members’ Bills that we have, it is a long list, from hon. Members who are keen and others who are asking how long it is going to take before their Bills are executed. So, if we can adjust time as per the Motion that I am moving, it means that we will handle two Bills on a Wednesday morning. That is the purpose of this and also looking at the international meetings and conferences that we attend, 15 minutes for a Mover is not really a short period or five minutes for someone who wishes to support or not is adequate time, if hon. Members prepare adequately.
Just to clarify, you know that in our Standing Orders, we already have what is always put at the back of our Order Paper stating exactly how long the business should take. There is 45 minutes for the Mover and a maximum of 20 minutes for replying. So, that is already in the Standing Orders. When we are making any change; when we are deviating from the Standing Orders like she has proposed, then we have to give it and that is why she is very specific that it is only with respect to Items Nos.11 and 12. But what is in our Standing Orders is what is the norm but when we deviate then that is when we are giving these specifics. It is your word against somebody else’s in terms of how long. You might find it inadequate for what you have to say and for another hon. Member it is more than adequate. For others, some of them may not even understand or have not taken the time on it. So as much as you are, I do not know whether it is casting aspersions to say that we are not taking legislative work seriously; it The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
On a point of order, hon. Deputy Speaker. It should be subject to not include Order No.12 in that because Order No.12 is very substantive. It is coming from our side of the coalition.
So you want to exclude Order No.12?
I propose an amendment to exclude Order No.12.
Are you moving an amendment?
Yes, to exclude Order No.12.
Then move it!
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I am moving an amendment to exclude Order No.12 in that it is substantive; it comes from our part of the coalition. The original Mover had not consulted us before talking about our own proposal by hon. Ngong’o. They did not consult us on this particular one and Order No.12 is substantive.
I am told that this matter was debated in the House Business Committee (HBC) where both sides - the Majority and the Minority parties - are represented. This is not a matter that we are just canvassing here, it was brought there.
Hon. Kangara, are you a Member of the HBC?
On a point of information, hon. Deputy Speaker. The CORD coalition is represented in the HBC and this decision was taken there where the Leader of Minority Party of the said coalition sits. I am also a Member of that Committee. So, we were properly consulted, we discussed the matter and as the HBC, we agreed on it.
In the interest of trying to make progress, the large number--- All of you have been complaining that none of the Private Members’ Bills are getting finished. They are so many of them and yet nobody is saying that theirs has been completed. So in that respect, we have to find a formula, therefore, reducing your debate to one hour and a half. That is why I was saying we should do more research so that we speak less; so that your points are concrete and you are not thinking about them and taking a very long time to prosecute what you need to say. Allow me to put the Question. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, as I move this Bill, I want to begin first by paying my very deep respects to the tens of our citizens who lost their lives recently when we were on recess in over five counties; Makueni, Kiambu, Embu and two other counties. They lost their lives and many other hundreds of them lost their eyesight and are suffering numerous health problems out of alcohol abuse. The principal objective of this Bill is to increase the functions of the National Authority for the Campaign against Alcohol and Drug Abuse (NACADA).
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, one specific function and objective I intend to give to NACADA will be the provision of support and assistance in establishment of treatment and rehabilitation programmes and centers in this country. As you may be aware, alcoholism and abuse of alcohol in this country has been a problem that has bedeviled it for many years. Hon. John Mututho did bring the principal Act, what is called the Alcoholic Drinks Control Bill of 2010. I seek to bring amendments to this Bill. We want to create an environment where part of the money that is allocated to this agency goes into establishment of rehabilitation centers and treatment programmes that will help many of our citizens who are suffering from alcoholism and alcohol abuse. It is important, and that is a second principal of this Bill, to recognize alcoholism and misuse of alcoholic substances as a disease. You will realize that the second bit of the amendment that I seek to move is to have the agency and indeed the Government recognize alcoholism as a disease and the many disorders that emanate from misuse of alcohol. We need to recognize the diseases as defined by the World Health Organization. If we do that, then the agency and the Government will be able to access more funding in the same way malaria and HIV/AIDS are able to access global funds from the World Health Organization. Through that assistance, we have Antiretroviral (ARVs) centers established. Other African countries, through funding by the World Health Organization and other donor agencies, have benefited immensely. When we recognize alcoholism as a disease, we will be able to access more of this fund. I am also looking at our public hospitals. You recognize that in this country a majority of the rehabilitation centers that are there that deal with drug and alcohol abuse are basically in Nairobi and the areas surrounding Nairobi. These centers are out of reach for the ordinary citizens. You recognize that many of the poor Kenyans that lost their lives in the three or five counties when we were on recess are not Kenyans who ordinarily The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity. I rise to second this very important Bill by the Member for Kikuyu, hon. Ichung’wah. First of all I want to recognize and honor posthumously my good friend, our departed hero, the MP for Gatundu South who after acknowledging that there is a huge problem of alcoholism gave out one of his houses in Runda to be used as rehabilitation centre. We should now go beyond looking at this issue from a philanthropic point of view to entrenching it in law. It was painful to see over 100 young men and women die after being poisoned by what was supposed to be beer. It happened in Makueni where my good friend, hon. Maanzo comes from. It also happened in Embu and Kiambu. It is high time we bit the bullet and agreed that alcoholism is not just a lifestyle issue rather it is a problem that we have at the moment. We have lost many young men and women who we believe are the engines that are going to push this country to the next level. During recess we went to our constituencies. Sometimes when you want laborers or people to do certain jobs, you do not find people to do such work. In fact, we had an instance which was aired on one of the leading television stations whereby the young men are not ready to work; it is actually women who are doing the manual work. When you inquire and check you realize that the young men are indulging in alcohol drinking. It is high time we set up rehabilitation centres from the constituency level. As I said earlier, these cases are not isolated; they are happening all over the Republic. It is important that special funds be set aside to set up affordable rehabilitation centres. At the moment, for any person to be admitted to a rehabilitation centre it costs about Kshs100,000. How many of those young people can The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Members, as I call out those who are going to speak, I would like the Deputy Leader of Majority Party to give guidance with regard to the Chairperson of the relevant Departmental Committee because we plan to complete the Second Reading of this Bill. You could help us get the Chairperson, hon. Kamama or his Vice-Chairperson.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, as I start to contribute to this Bill, I would like to send my condolences to the families which lost their loved ones in Embu some weeks ago. The challenge of alcoholism is becoming a national problem. I support this Bill so that we give more powers to NACADA to be able to move across the country and educate our youth on the effects of alcoholism. Our youth are spending many man-hours drinking. It is sad that some of these young men wake up very early when the police are still asleep so that they can have a drink. This is a serious national problem which needs to be addressed. I think NACADA has been doing some good work although it looks like in many occasions they are reactive. I want to encourage my good friend, hon. Mututho to be more proactive on this issue so that we do not appear to be reacting when there is a problem. We want to give him those powers so that he is able to execute his mandate, but we will also demand that he performs the job. With regard to the issue of duty remission which my good friend here is advocating for, I agree with him, but I do not think this is the right Bill to include issues of duty remission. Perhaps, he needs to consult so that we get the right place to put this clause. This is because the issues of taxes fall under another purview. If we want the Cabinet Secretary to give exemption on duty, let us do it in the right place. Having said so, let me say that I support the idea. The ideal situation in this country would be to ban consumption of all alcoholic drinks, but that is not possible The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Your time is up, hon. Langat!
Thank you very much, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I was seconding the other Procedural Motion. It affects me. With those remarks, I beg to support.
(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Yes, hon. Moses Injendi.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. Before I make my contribution, I would like to welcome my girls from Malava Girls High School. Unfortunately, they are leaving but I would like them to feel welcome at the gallery. I rise to actually oppose the Motion because, personally, I feel that going into rehabilitation centres would be like encouraging young people to get into excessive drinking. I would recommend that instead of spending money on rehabilitation centres, it would be better to spend the money on controlling the consumption of alcohol. It is like we have very many centres that are providing alcohol. We have many persons supplying substandard alcoholic drinks. If we can empower the Mututho group to control the supply of such drinks, it will not be necessary for us to establish treatment centres as proposed. Personally, I have been at a place of work where some people have been victims of alcoholism. When such persons were asked to go for treatment, they refused. Those who went to rehabilitation centres for treatment eventually returned home and continued with the same habit. So, I oppose the Motion on those grounds. Thank you.
(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Yes, hon. Christine Ombaka.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the Motion. I support the Motion because alcoholism has now become a national disaster. It is very sad that people who drink and go through alcoholism are not young people alone. I used to associate alcoholism with young and jobless people who are idle, and who just want to take alcohol, so that they can pass time. However, even adults now are victims. Alcoholism is breaking homes. Many people are dying. Many more people are breaking their families. You find adults and young people sleeping on the streets. It is a bad sight. It means that the country is going through a hard time. Very soon, we will not have people who are strong enough to bring development to this country. I believe that joblessness is partly the cause of this problem. There is too much idle life because young people, who are strong, have nothing to do with themselves. In The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Yes, hon. Abdikadir Omar of Balambala!
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. Let me take this opportunity to also support this amendment Bill and say that, indeed, going by the deaths that we have seen as a result of the alcohol menace in the last few weeks, as a responsible leader, even though I do not drink, this kind of amendment to this law will come in handy to give a hand to the Mututho team to create rehabilitation and treatment centres, so that we can care for the unfortunate aftermath of the kind of things that we have seen happening in the last few weeks. As a Member of the Budget and Appropriations Committee we are, indeed, prepared to financially support the Mututho team, so that the proposed rehabilitation centres can be created and funded, so that we can deal with the problem of alcoholism. I would like to say that, indeed, it is not only alcohol that has caused havoc to the lives of many Kenyans. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, as a House, we have sent a very strong signal to the NACADA that they also need to look at other drugs that are affecting the lives of many Kenyans. The use of hard drugs and the uncontrolled use of even some of the allowed drugs like khat is causing a lot of problems to the lives of many Kenyans in the region I come from. Many young people are suffering. Some of them do not go to school The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I wish to support this amendment. We realize that what is going on in this country is driven by greed and uncontrolled use of alcohol and substance abuse among our young people. If the Government can regulate the use of the otherwise traditional alcoholic drinks like busaa and muratina, this is something that can be done. These drinks are much healthier than what people are drinking today. When I say “driven by greed” I refer to the unscrupulous businessmen and women who use dangerous chemicals to adulterate the drinks that they sell to the people. That is why we end up with many dangerous drinks which kill and main the people. If we empower NACADA and also use the proposed tax that will come out of this regulation, we can set up rehabilitation centers to rehabilitate people. Otherwise, the youths have been lost to alcohol. If you look at it critically, there is a generation that has been lost to alcohol abuse. If you go to some slum areas especially areas that fall in my constituency, you will find that these people drink from morning to evening. They do nothing. They wake up on a drink and just end up being hopeless. They do not work. They do not do anything. That is also an area that we need to look into and empower NACADA to regulate. There is some jurisdiction where we know that the tax that comes from alcohol is labeled as sin tax. This sin tax is used to rehabilitate and protect the victims of alcohol abuse. So, if we can come up with a tax regime that can regulate this, then we can rehabilitate some of our youths who are lost to alcohol. Rehabilitation centers in this country are very expensive. Most of them are run by NGOs. Most of the times, the people who abuse alcohol have no access to these facilities. So, if the Government can come up with proper facilities that can rehabilitate the victims of alcohol and other substance abuse, it will be better for the country. Also, we have institutions like the Kenya Bureau of Standards which are mandated to deal with standards and I do not know how some of the drinks that people take have authorized stamps of KEBS. I do not know how they manage to get it. But if that goes through their laboratories and still end up in that kind of situation, then we must re-look into how to deal with this situation. I support this Bill because it will go a long way to regulate and control some of these abuses we are seeing in our society and loss of lives. I beg to support.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for also giving me an opportunity to ventilate on this very important piece of legislation. I want to congratulate the Member for Kikuyu for bringing it to the House. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Your time is up, hon. Member. Just conclude because your time is up. The microphone has gone off because we said five minutes. Hon John Nyagah.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this Bill. First, I would like to congratulate hon. Ichung’wah for this amendment. I am one of the Members of Parliament who are highly affected by this menace. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Your time is up hon. Member. Hon. James Nyikal. Please we said five minutes per each Member since there is so much interest. Let us try to keep it that way.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I rise to support this Bill because the main object of this Bill, as I see it, is really to enable us to recognise in law and in all our programmes that excessive drinking or alcoholism is actually a disease. We need to treat it as a disease that needs to be prevented, controlled and treated and that is the essence of this Bill and that is why I support it. If you look at the World Health Organisation definition of “health”, it is not just the mere absence of disease but complete mental, physical and psychological well being and not just the mere absence of disease. Those who take excessive alcohol are sick. Do not try to lecture or take people where there is addiction to alcohol because they will not recover that way. They need treatment and hence the need for programmes for prevention The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Your time is up. Hon. Naomi Shaban.
Asante sana Mheshimiwa Naibu Spika wa Muda kwa kunipatia nafasi hii ya kuweza kuunga mkono mabadiliko haya na mapendekezo haya ya kubadilisha sheria ambayo inasimamia maswala kuhusu unywaji wa pombe hapa nchini. Nataka kuunga wenzangu mkono kwa kumpongeza Mheshimwa Ichung’wah kwa kuleta mabadiliko haya ambayo yataweza kusaidia zaidi watu wetu wengi ambao ni watumizi wa pombe. Pombe kwa wingi ni hatari kwa maisha. Pombe haswa kwa wengi wetu hatujaona umuhimu wa pombe lakini kwa wale ambao ni watumiaji wa pombe ambayo ni wapigaji kura wetu na ni Wakenya wenzetu, ningependa kusema ya kwamba kuna pombe ambazo ni za kienyeji ambazo kuna umuhimu wa hizo kupatiwa nafasi wananchi waweze kunywa bila wasiwasi wowote bora wasipitishe kiwango fulani. Sheria hii haswa inazungumzia maswala ya kuhakikisha kuwa kutaweza kuweko mipango kabambe na Serikali ya kuwezesha wale ambao wamezidiwa na shida hii na wenye kupenda kunywa pombe zaidi ya kiasi kuweza kusaidika. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Daniel Maanzo, find a way of being generous to other hon. Members because there is so much interest on this Bill. Please, you do not have to take a total of five minutes, do what hon. Shaban has done.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. Let me say that I thank hon. Ichung’wah for bringing this Bill and I support it. Recently, in my constituency I lost 20 people to poisonous alcohol. When it was analyzed it was found that it had methanol, while the original alcohol is made of ethanol. Methanol is poison. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, alcohol which killed my constituents and people in other parts of the country – in fact, over 100 people died of poisonous alcohol. The poisonous substance was manufactured in Kenya. It had even the KEBS symbol and was done by people who actually participated in a criminal activity resulting into deaths of many people. In one of the homes in Makueni, Kithuki; I lost 12 people in a village and seven children were left without a father and a bread winner. All of them are in primary and secondary schools. Therefore, alcohol has devastating effects when it turns out to be so. I support the amendments. We should have rehabilitation programmes which are supported by the Treasury and also recognize alcoholism as disease. What is the way The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I rise to support this Bill and congratulate hon. Ichung’wah for the bold move he has taken to bring this Bill to this House. First, I support the amendment that alcohol has become a national disaster. We get several deaths and officers are sacked but nothing happens after that. Those aggrieved are left with their families to suffer the consequences. There are no follow-ups done. I support that this should be taken as a national disaster. Rehabilitation centres should be opened within our counties so that we can rehabilitate those who have been addicted and their conditions are almost irreversible. The cost of rehabilitation should be made affordable. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I have a case in my constituency where a family is toiling to get their son to a rehabilitation centre because of alcohol. The charges at the rehabilitation centres in Nairobi are very exorbitant and people cannot afford them. The boy is still languishing down there at his home and the parents have nothing to do. These alcoholic drinks which we are talking about pass through the hands of the Government and the Kenya Bureau of Standards. I take exception with them because these drinks which kill our people have their labels. If you go to muratina or busaa and whatever we take down in our villages, we have not heard people dying out of them. Therefore, even those officers are sacked irrationally because people have died, what can they do if a bottle is labeled and has got the KEBS label? The chief does not know which label is genuine and which one is not. We should start with the brewing points. Those people who had brewed the drink that was sold in Makueni, Meru, Embu or any other part of the country should have been arrested. Therefore, I do not support the The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I would like to support this amendment Bill and thank my brother, hon. Ichung’wah, for bringing it to this House. Essentially, alcohol is a form of beverage, like other beverages. But alcoholism goes beyond it because taking alcohol is highly addictive. It takes people to this condition of alcoholism very easily. Therefore, we need to deal with this issue of alcoholism. I want to agree with those who have alluded to the fact that alcoholism should be treated as a disease. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, indeed, it is a disease because when you go beyond the measure you can take of alcohol, you become alcoholic and start suffering from alcoholism. It has grave effects on the health of individuals. It also has effects on productivity; both economic and human. So for this, as a Government, we must take interest in treatment. First of all, recognizing the levels of danger and then treating it by establishing rehabilitation centers. I want to say that in establishing those rehabilitation centers, we should do it equitably. We should go further and say every county should have, at least, a minimum number of rehabilitation centers. As things are now, we have rehabilitation centers but they do not have the necessary facilities. They are also not equitably distributed across the country. We also need to recognize that there is no community or national entity that does not have its traditional foods and beverages. Some of these alcoholic drinks and beverages are very important to communities for their identity and continuity. They need to take certain levels of alcohol without getting into the dangers of it. So, we need to have capacity building programmes that will help those who are managing these drinks not to use poisonous substances because we have lost many lives. We also need to sensitize administrative entities to make sure that they do not criminalize alcoholics. If you throw a person suffering from alcoholism in cells, you only make the situation worse because he gets depressed. Those people need to be taken to hospital. You cannot take a sick person to a police cell. That person should be taken to hospital. We need to take those people to rehabilitation centers for treatment. The brewers of the alcohol, especially the traditional ones, need to be given accolades because they are safeguarding a heritage that we need to share with the rest of the world. We need to investigate what it is they have that we can adopt and develop so that it is used in modern life. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Your time is up!
There is a lot we can say about this, but I support.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I rise to support this Bill and like my colleagues, I congratulate my brother, hon. Ichung’wah for acting on this prevalent problem. The reason I support this Bill is because it brings clarity on the function of the establishment of the rehabilitation centers. As we speak, it is an issue that has not been addressed by the law and it is left to any person. It is not a responsibility of any person as per the law but now it is. This is a law that we need to pass very fast because under the current Budget for the next financial year, NACADA is getting funding for this purpose of establishing rehabilitation centers. We have a problem in the country, in that there are few centers. Where I come from in Nyandarua County, we do not have one and sometimes we get into problems trying to transport a person with alcoholism to some centers in Kisii. It is, therefore, very costly. I have had a look at the principal Act and it gives NACADA and other Government agencies the duty to sensitize and educate masses so that we can prevent alcoholism. Apparently, this has not been done and this Bill is now dealing with the consequences of that failure. The adage “prevention is better than cure” is exactly what we ought to focus on. Looking at the amount of money that we are spending in our hospitals trying to treat people who are not only suffering from the effect of the poison that they are drinking as alcohol but also the habitual drunkards suffering from liver failure, we are using so much money. Secondly, we have the problem of catering for the vulnerable groups that are left behind by people who die from the usage of alcohol; the widows, orphans and widowers. It is a big problem and even if you go to your constituency and look at the number of orphans that you have to give funding through bursaries or cash transfers, people are suffering. Some people are also literally the living dead. Some of the people you meet our there are living dead. The guy is there, he has not left us but he is not with us. He is literally dead because of alcoholism. On the issue of taxation, for a certain period I think since 2007, the law was that the Keg beer was not attracting Excise Duty. What happened is that most of the people shifted from the ordinary bottled beer to the Keg beer. The Government realizing that it was losing a lot of tax; it reintroduced the Excise Duty on the Keg beer. Perhaps, we need a scientific study and research---
(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Your time is up!
I support this Bill and ask NACADA to up their game.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I stand to support. I want to congratulate hon. Ichung’wah for this Bill which is an amendment Bill. What I like about it is that it is declaring alcoholism a disease. I think in the last Parliament I was very involved in this issue and when we spoke to several hon. Members, each and every one I spoke to was affected very directly either their brother, sister, husband or wife was directly affected by alcoholism. By treating this issue, I hope for most of us when we are talking, we are thinking of the poor, miserable who died yet it affects us even the elite. I want to say that even as I am speaking to another hon. Member who said it does not concern him, he was saying his father was not there for him to educate him because he was an alcoholic. It affects each The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Member for Turkana East.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this chance to give my views in support of this Bill. I think this is the right time for us to find out how we can assist Kenyans who have been dying day by day because of this alcohol. It is time to support NACADA and give them power so that they can control the use of alcohol in this country. I support the Members who have already talked of the issue of creation of rehabilitation centers. Those centers are supposed to be created in all sub-counties so that those who have been affected can be supported and come back to their normal life. The other issue is creating public awareness, so that the Ministry concerned can be given funds, with which the public can get awareness on use of alcohol and through that, so many people will benefit and will support the control of alcohol. The other issue is that Kenya is a working nation and our economy depends on the youth and people affected in this country through alcohol, majority of them are the youth. If we support NACADA, the youth will be assisted and they will support our country because this is a working nation. If we leave it the way it is now, those youth will be affected and our nation will lose focus when it comes to economy. When we talk of local brews; this is where the problem is. You find our local people just drinking from morning and yet we have allocated time for drinking in bars. We need to make it uniform even for those local brews so that people will just not wake up in the morning and start drinking, yet they are supposed to work. There is no need for us to call some busaa others chang’aa and others. That is where the main problem is. We need to support NACADA so that policies can be put in place to safeguard the control of local brews to allow people to take it at the right time and also to have a limit. Not just to take it the way you want up to evening. The other thing is to have laws for implementing this amendment. It is not just the issue of just coming up with the amendment then we leave it that way. We need to have some laws to govern the amendment, so that when we start implementing it, if somebody goes against it, they should face the law. There is need for us to support even the implementation of policies by the Ministry. Thank you, I support.
(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Thank you, your time is up. This is the last Member who will be speaking before I give the Mover the Floor. I really apologize. There is too much interest but let us have just one hon. Member. This is a conversation worth having another time.
Thank you very much, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me an opportunity to air my views on this very important amendment Bill. I want to oppose this amendment very vehemently although it is pitting me against my very good The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Thank you. Hon. Member, your time is up. Hon. ole Ntutu will be responding on behalf of the Committee on Administration and National Security.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity. I just want also to join my colleagues first of all to say that this issue of alcoholism is a disease. The Government has been taking it very casually as though it is just another issue. I want to say that on behalf of the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security, we have indeed put measures particularly through NACADA, that they must come out very clearly on how to prevent alcoholism. I also The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I would like to donate seven minutes to hon. roho safi; hon. Nassir, one minute; hon. Kiragu, one minute; hon. Leshoomo, one minute; hon. Duale, one minute; hon. Kiptui, one minute; and hon. Mary Mbugua, one minute.
(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Please, stick to one minute. I will just put off the microphone.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, first of all, I want to thank hon. Members on behalf of the family of the late hon. Joseph Ngugi for your support. On behalf of that family, I thank you very sincerely. Secondly, I would like to bring to the attention of hon. Members that hon. Ngugi was very committed to this subject of drug abuse and alcoholism. Indeed, he was running a rehabilitation centre at Garden Estate called Bridgestone Rehab Centre. He had a passion for this subject. On his behalf, I would like to say that I support this Bill. This Bill recognizes alcoholism as a disease and, indeed, it is a disease when you take into account the number of people dying out of alcoholism; the compromise of alcoholism in terms of the economic productivity of this nation; and the social and cultural values. Alcoholism kills more people, perhaps, more than road accidents. Recently, it killed 100 people. It is even worse than the Westgate killings where we lost 67 people. For me, it is a real problem and, particularly in Central Province. Excessive drinking in Central Province is a real problem and it should be declared a national disaster. It not only kills people, but we have people who are walking corpses; they are unproductive to their families, the nation and to themselves. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this chance to support the amendment. I want to thank hon. Ichung’wah for the amendment. May I say that alcoholism is evil. As people say, it is a disease but it is evil. It has changed our happy homes to unhappy homes. Many children, including students, are getting killed by alcohol. I would like to say that this evil should be dealt with without any delay. That is why I have stood here to support this amendment Bill. It is timely. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, people say that charity begins at home. East or west, home is best. Therefore, this evil---
(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Mbugua, your time is up! Yes, hon. Duale!
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I want to thank hon. Ichung’wah. I can see that he has followed the footsteps of hon. Mbadi in bringing up matters that affect the people. Hon. Mbadi brought an amendment to the Value Added Tax. Hon. Ichungwah has brought an amendment to the Alcoholic Drinks Control Act. Last night I pushed in the House Business Committee that this Bill be brought to the House today. I am sure that the Leader of Minority Party will agree with me. This is despite my coming from a constituency where the population is 80 per cent Muslims. For us Muslims, we will not have a problem of deaths arising from consumption of alcoholic brews. However, I have a huge population from my neighbourhood of Ukambani, for whom we have created jobs in Garissa. I have people from the whole of lower Mwingi, Ukasi and Kitui counties. One of the greatest sources of employment for residents from the larger constituency of the Leader of Minority Party is my constituency. I do not want his people and many other Kenyans who do not profess the Islamic faith to go through the problem of alcoholism. This amendment Bill is timely. I would urge my colleagues that, in fact, it should up next week for Third Reading. We should bring the necessary amendments and have the President assenting to the Bill before the end of the month, so that our people’s lives can be saved. Thank you.
(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Yes, hon. Nassir!
Thank you very much, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I would like to, first and foremost, thank hon. Ichung’wah for bringing this excellent amendment Bill to the House. However, there is something which needs to be clarified. It is true that we have the problem of alcoholism in this country but the major problem that is found in the area that I represent in this House is drug addiction and drug abuse. This particular Bill talks about setting up a rehabilitation centre. The funding for the rehabilitation centre is meant to come from a levy that will be taxed from the sale of alcohol and alcohol-related products. The current anti-narcotics law says that funding for rehabilitation centres has to come from income that has been attached on drug dealers but since that law was enacted, we have not been able to see proper drug dealers being taken to court. So, we are having a major problem. So, when this amendment Bill comes up for Third Reading, we will be seeking to amend it. The current rehabilitation centres within the Coastal region are only The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Your time is up, hon. Nassir! Yes, hon. Nyenze!
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I want to congratulate and thank the Member for Kikuyu, hon. Ichung’wah, for bringing this very important amendment Bill to the House. We have lost very many Kenyans. I do not know where to start from because the church that I attend does not allow worshippers to take alcohol. I am sure that my pastor is watching. If I had the power and authority, I would request that hon. Kimani Ichung’wah goes ahead to propose a total ban to alcohol consumption. There have been over 100 deaths. In Kitui County alone, we buried 20 people. Many other places were also affected. If possible, there should be some amendments to provide for alternatives to illicit brews. One of the alternatives could include stopping levying tax on Keg, which was a better alternative to illicit brews. Since the Government levied tax on it, the price of Keg went up, and Keg disappeared.
(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Time is up, hon. Nyenze! But because of my faith, I urge hon. Kimani Ichung’wah to move and amend it, so that we can ban all alcohol consumption all together.
(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Members, the putting of the Question will be done in the afternoon.