Hon. Senators, I have a communication to make. Distinguished Senators, you may recall that in April this year, a consultative meeting between Senators and Governors was held in Eldoret during which a number of issues of common interest were discussed. I am therefore pleased to inform you that a follow up meeting for the entire Senate has been organized from 30th July to 1st August, 2014. The meeting will focus mainly on the state of play of devolution and the relations between the various institutions, among others. Other details relating to the actual programme and the logistical arrangements will be communicated to you in due course. Hon. Senators, it is in the interest of the Senate as the protector and promoter of counties and their governments that we take time to reflect on the progress we have made so far in the process of making devolution a reality and to continue to engage all the other key players. We all must therefore continue to work together and take keen interest on the welfare of counties. Consequently, I take this early opportunity therefore to invite you, hon. Senators, to this very important workshop and urge you to attend. Please mark your calendar. Thank you. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Any Statements due? Sen. Mositet, do you have a Statement from the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget? ESCALATING BANK INTEREST RATES STATUS REPORT OF THE ECONOMIC STIMULUS PROGRAMME
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir. We have two Statements in response to requests from Sen. Kembi-Gitura and Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo. I notice that these two Senators are not in the House.
I thought you agreed with them yesterday that you would issue your Statement next week. I think that was the agreement you had entered into yesterday.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I can see it had already been indicated on the Order Paper.
It is true. I think they did not listen to the Chair yesterday. I had actually disposed of all of them.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
What is it, Sen. (Dr.) Machage?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, would I be in order to inform you that I am privy to information that Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo is bereaved? He lost his father and that is why he is not in the House today.
Thank you, Sen. (Dr.) Machage for the information, but that is what informed the decision to defer the matter to next week. What was the status on the Committee on Roads and Transportation? The Chairperson of Committee on Lands and Natural Resources was actually very ready with the Statement yesterday. I see the Member who sought it here and we agreed that it be issued today.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, last year, I sought a Statement from the Chairman of the Committee on Roads and Transportation and it was like something happened. He has not communicated to me or otherwise. Now, do I have to remind him that I need the Statement now?
He issued a Statement last year?
Then? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was promised by the Committee that they will come visiting my county to inspect the status of the road and we are now into the following year and they have not come. Now I am worried that I will continue sitting here and not getting any communication from the Chairman. That is the Kutus-Karatina Road.
Order, Senator. You know better that all the business of last year elapsed last year at the end of the Session. This is another Session and so you need to revisit the matter afresh if you wish to continue with it.
Can I do it now, Sir?
You cannot. There is a procedure in which we operate in this House. Next Order!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to move the following Motion:- THAT, the Senate approves the Report of the Mediation Committee on the County Governments (Amendment) (No.2) Bill (Senate Bill No.4 of 2013) laid on the Table of the Senate on Tuesday, 1st April, 2014. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is a Report of the Mediation Committee relating to the amendment to the County Governments (Amendment) Bill No.2, seeking to amend the County Governments Act to provide for the establishment of County Development Boards in our counties. You will remember that this is an amendment Bill that was moved in this House, the Senate approved the Bill as provided for under the Constitution, and the Bill was forwarded to the National Assembly for its consideration. The National Assembly rejected the Bill and as provided again by the Constitution, the Bill was subjected to a Mediation Committee. The Mediation Committee comprised of Sen. Amos Wako, Hon. Samuel Chepkong’a, Sen. Kiraitu Murungi, Hon. Katoo ole Metito, Hon. (Dr.) David Eseli Simiyu and myself. We sat down as a Committee and I want to take this opportunity to appreciate the support and the contribution by the various Members of the Mediation Committee. We had issues that were raised by the Members of the National Assembly. You will remember that this Amendment Bill had provided for the establishment of development forums or consultative forums across the county level, the sub-county level and the ward level. The Members of the National Assembly raised valid concerns on the existence of the proposed Ward Development Boards and Sub-county Development Boards. At the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. Billow, do I take it that you have a point of order?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the hon. Senator in order to continue talking about the need for national dialogue when the promoters of that programme have since publicly announced that they have called it off and they are no longer interested?
Order, Sen. Billow! I do not think that is really a point of order. You cannot stop somebody from having similar ideas to another one. So, he is perfectly in order to give us his opinion. Proceed, Sen. Sang.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the basis of this Bill is to provide a platform for dialogue at the county level. The challenge that we have had before is where you have dialogue in an uncoordinated manner; where myself and my governor have had to make consultations over funerals and weddings. We are just providing a legal framework to provide an opportunity to dialogue. This is the same thing that our friends in CORD have been raising, the need to have dialogue. All of us agree on that. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to conclude by appreciating that this is the first Bill, other than the Division of Revenue Bill and the County Allocation of Revenue Bill and one of the key enactments that this Senate will have undertaken. I want to plead with the leadership of the entire Parliament, that let this be a precedent that we will need to engage through while dealing with Bills that are supposed to be handled in both Houses. If we The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I did not want to interrupt Sen. Khalwale’s seconding at this point, but the Chair yesterday ruled that Prof. Anyang’-Nyong’o, the Senator for Kisumu, was required to substantiate something that he said in the House this afternoon. I am not saying that he should substantiate now, but I was requesting your kind permission and indulgence, so that you can schedule what time he is going to do so.
Order, Sen. Murkomen! I thought that you were following the Mover of the Motion. He said that our good sense of judgement should follow on certain things. It should also follow when we raise points of order. That is valid, but let us allow this Motion to flow. The Standing Orders allow the one who is to substantiate the second day. The second day is yet to end. So, you will have plenty of opportunities in the course of our business to raise that matter. Let us dispose of this one first. I am fully seized of the matter. Proceed, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to second the Report of the Mediation Committee on the County Governments (Amendment) Bill (Bill No.2) (Senate Bill No. 4 of 2013), pursuant to Article 113 of the Constitution of Kenya. Mr. Speaker, Sir, before I make any specific references to this Mediation Report, I want to justify my seconding this Motion, by my realization that, indeed, what this board is going to end up doing is that it will allow this particular amendment to flow from Articles 6, 10 and 174 of the Constitution. Specifically, Article 6 (2) of the Constitution reads:- “The governments at the national and county levels are distinct and inter-dependent and shall conduct their mutual relations on the basis of consultation and co-operation.” The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. My friend, Sen. Khalwale has made very serious allegations about the constitutionality and legality of the office of a County Commissioner. He even went further to say that it was ruled by the High Court. Could he tell us whether that ruling came before or after the National Co- ordination Act came into place? Is he in order to mislead this House that the court said that it is unconstitutional?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, indeed, there is no way that I can mislead this House. I am not the Registrar of the Judiciary to know which Act or pronouncement came before which one. But I am aware that Justice Mumbi, sitting in the High Court of Kenya, found that the position of County Commissioner is unconstitutional. I am also aware that the Attorney-General, Prof. Githu Muigai, for the interest of Sen. Murkomen and others who might be in doubt, was a Member of the Parliament when this statute was being discussed in this very Chamber. He has gone ahead and also advised that he finds it unconstitutional that anybody should contemplate appointing the so-called County Commissioners.
Order, Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr.! I was about to allow you, but I have not seen your name in the system. I thought that you have no excuse. Proceed, Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of information, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I would like to inform the distinguished Senator from Kakamega that the ruling of Justice Mumbi was, in fact, vacated by the Court of Appeal.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, my second comment on this amendment Bill is on page 4 on the functions of this particular Board, specifically “(c).” The Committee found that the Board should consider and give input on county annual budgets before they are tabled in the county assembly for consideration. I want to give the example of Kakamega.
Order, Sen. Boni! You have been challenged and informed.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am forever grateful for the information. I had earlier on indicated that I am not a Registrar at the High Court to know what comes first. So, I am very grateful for the information.
Saying that you are not the Registrar does not show your gratitude. So, you need to do it the way you have done now.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. It is so nice that Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., who Sen. Wetangula and I have been vigorously training on how to debate, has now gotten up and is up to it. Thank you so much. Mr. Speaker, Sir, on page 4, section “c” of the Report, one of the functions is to consider and give input on county annual budgets before they are tabled in the county assembly for consideration. I wanted to remind the Members, using my example of Kakamega County, on the day when the public is supposed to do what they call public participation in the budget, an announcement is made through an advertisement in the national newspapers. As you know, the majority of Kenyans do not read newspapers. They are read by a minority. So, whenever we have such a day in Kakamega County, usually at the Kakamega Social Hall, you will find a very small section of people going to that hall. They are lost and do not even know how to critique the budget. Therefore, the Governor or his representative simply walks in or then out without having received any critique whatsoever, positive or negative, from the intended public participation. With this Board in place, it will give us an opportunity to allow, through the elected leaders – Members of the National Assembly, leader of the majority and leader of the minority, the Senator and Woman Representative – to represent those people and ensure that they critique the budget for purposes of enriching it. Mr. Speaker, Sir, my third point on this Report which I support is on New Clause 91 (c), on page 5. This new clause talks about the measure of offence of obstructing the county development board. It is my belief that given the resistance that you are seeing right at the beginning, where Governors are now taking public funds and putting up The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. It is not my wish to interrupt the debate but I rise to seek your indulgence on a matter that took place on 25th June, 2014 on the County Governments (Amendment) (No.2) Bill (Senate Bill No. 2 of 2014) that I had sponsored to the Senate. The Speaker then ruled clearly that the voting will be done today, 9th July, 2014 according to the HANSARD. I want to quote:- “The Deputy Speaker (Sen. Kembi-Gitura): We shall have the Division on 9th July, 2014. It is so ordered.” I am therefore seeking your guidance and petitioning you on the same.
As expressed, Senators, it is so ordered. Today, 9th July, 2014 between Order No.9 and Order No.10, we will vote. Sen. Njoroge, are you on a point of order? If you are not, it is okay. Hon. Members, I want to believe this is a very popular Motion. So, try to limit your contributions so that as many Senators as possible may participate. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me an opportunity to support the Report as laid on the Table of the House. This is a milestone in our short history as a Senate. The process that culminates in this report today puts to shame doomsday believers that have been saying that bicameral system in this country cannot work. For the first time, a mediation process as provided for in the law has brought fruits to the Table. This Bill was supported by the whole House. Indeed, at the operationalisation of this Bill, there might be one or two hitches but it is very fundamental that Senators have an opportunity to participate in what goes on in counties. There are some governors who are good, there are some who are not so good and some who are very bad. We need to bring our entire devolution house to order. I want to encourage governors not to see this as an intrusion into their work because there is no governor who has a title deed to any county neither is there any governor who has exclusive right under any law to do what they wish in any county. Indeed, I am sure there will also be some Senators who may use this process to exceed their authority and lord it over the governors; again, that would be wrong. I encourage that we have an approach that helps counties. Indeed, we have seen of late that certain governors are conducting their affairs in a very poor manner and they need somebody to put them to order. You find a governor who embarks on misusing resources allocated to a county in a populist stand to carry out functions that are exclusive to the national Government. When you find a Governor engaging in populist activities like buying 120 police vehicles when it is not the duty of a county government to buy vehicles for the police, how is he accounting for that money? Even when he is summoned to come and explain, he does not show up. Then we have other governors who know very well that certain functions are not within their domain but they are budgeting money for them, contrary to the law. Senators are the only elected representatives given the legal and constitutional responsibility as the defender, upholder and protectors of counties and devolution. In doing so, we expect that Senators will be like a balancing act. I have received and read mail from certain counties where some governors who have a hold on county assemblies are denying certain sections of their own counties development activities and focusing only on areas they think they enjoy political support. This is what Senators must come to correct. We also have some governors who are engaged in activities that are an affront to the law. We know of governors who are themselves contractors while others are suppliers. It is not all of them but there are some bad apples that I encourage Senators to take responsibility seriously, sit with governors, not in competition but in complementing the support that we need to give to ordinary people. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have said this before; that there are some counties in this country, and I am very fond of pointing at Wajir as an example, where my distinguished friend and my able deputy chair in the Finance, Commerce and Budget Committee comes from. In Wajir, 50 years after Independence, children still read about tarmac roads in books, children still read about piped water in books. Devolution has come to correct this The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I did not intend to interrupt the Senate Minority Leader because he was making very weighty submissions except that sometimes he deviates to areas that you have warned about. As much as we may disagree with the manner in which the National Assembly runs its affairs, we have been very careful not to debate other people in this House. It is your ruling and it is on record. We agreed that even if we have our differences with the National Assembly, one of us has to take the higher moral ground in terms of utterances and approach.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not debating any individual from the Lower House, I just commented that when a Member talks inaudibly, recklessly and without any due regard to other people’s feelings, he is rattling and I will leave it there. I am not saying anything more.
Order, Sen. Wetangula. First, that was a bit out of way on this particular matter. Secondly, you did not acknowledge the contribution by Members of that House to this particular one. That way, we would see a balanced view.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was rudely interrupted by the distinguished Senator for Elgeyo-Marakwet. I was acknowledging the mediation team and charity begins at home. I have to acknowledge our Members from here, then move on to Members from the other House. That is why I brought in a man, who if he sat in that Committee, probably, we would not have reached these results. I salute the team from the Lower House for seeing the direction that the Constitution, the law, the common man and the country desire. We cannot and we shall not, as a country, engage in endless unhelpful turf wars between the National Assembly and the Senate. Indeed, those of us who are asking this country to start auditing the Constitution and take the country through a process of change that would make the Constitution even better, we must start thinking as a House; how we can restore and bring the Senate to a level where Senates in other comparable jurisdictions are. The Senate in any jurisdiction, The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have much respect for the Senate Minority Leader but is it in order for him to mislead this House and the whole country that the Constitution is clear that every county has one Senator whereas the membership of the Senate is clear in Article 98? It says that Senate consists of 47 Members---
Order! You are both right. So nobody is contradicting the other. If there is somebody out of order, it is you. Sen. Wetangula talked about delegations per county but you are talking about the composition of the Senate. Those are two different things and you are both right.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. My distinguished friend and good lady here knows that in the presence of Sen. Kembi- Gitura, she has no vote here unless she is delegated to vote.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is just for clarity.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, Sen. Martha Wangari who is my good friend is not part of a delegation from Murang’a County. She is part of delegation from Nairobi County. That should be made very clear.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am, in fact, told that she is from the Nakuru delegation.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I gave you information that you did not solicit, but that is the position I got.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in fact, I am told that she is from the Nakuru delegation. But be that as it may, votes in this Senate Chamber are by delegations. Each delegation has one vote. When we say that Nyeri County will have the Senator chairing the board, it will be one chair and one delegation; and so is everywhere else.
Order, Senators! This is a matter we have disposed of before.
What is it, Sen. Elachi? This will be the last one.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise on a point of order. Is the Senate Minority Leader in order to say that it is a privilege to be nominated in this House while he knows The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, obviously, English language is a foreign language and our levels of understanding it are quite different.
Order! Order! But once we have made it an official language in the Constitution, it is no longer foreign.
It must be used properly. I think the point Sen. Elachi is contesting is nomination based on the word “privilege.” Hon. Wetangula is using it in the normal way because when you go to meetings, you say “I am privileged.” Does that mean you are not there by merit?
Proceed, Sen. Wetangula.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, even privileges confer rights.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, let me say my last two points so that others can also contribute. I saw in the media that the Council of Governors (CoGs), which is chaired by a very distinguished and respected Governor for Bomet County, put up an advertisement attempting to indict this Bill. I want to ask the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget and the Public Accounts and Investments Committee (PAIC) to find out whose money they are using to fight an unjust cause.
This money is from public funds. Nobody has the right to take public funds to take out paid advertisements costing about Kshs1 million just to defend an indefensible position both in law and fact. These Committees should look at the accounts and find out where that money is coming from. If it is being taken from the money we allocate to counties, then they have to be held to account because every shilling counts. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have been seeing some situations where people are spending money as if we have some pit somewhere where we are just drawing out money from, and yet when you go to some counties, people are dying of hunger, thirst and many other The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to thank you---
What is your point of order, Sen. Kagwe?
You should press the gadgets---
Should I sit or should I stand?
You should sit.
So, Mr. Speaker, Sir, why, then, are we all standing?
Because some habits die slowly.
I am much obliged, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Proceed, Sen. Kiraitu.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to thank you. Allow me to do the unusual and thank the last speaker; the Senate Minority Leader, especially for the last comments that he made regarding the Mover of this Motion, Sen. Sang. This Motion touches at the very heart of the Senate. That is why it has tremendous support from both sides of the House. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to commend Sen. Sang most sincerely for the passion---
Order, Senators! I can see that there is immense interest in this Motion and we have three Motions to vote on. Could I suggest that we take five minutes each? It is so ordered; five minutes per contributor. Proceed, Sen. Kiraitu. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was already on my feet when you introduced that new rule and I hope it does not apply retrospectively---
Order, Sen. Kiraitu! In fact, it applies and you are still advantaged because what you have contributed so far, is not counted. So, start counting your five minutes now.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I was commending Sen. Sang and the other Members of the Mediation Committee. The Mediation Committee had very distinguished Members from both Houses, led by the former Attorney-General Emeritus, Sen. Wako, Sen. Sang and myself, who are distinguished lawyers from this House. We had hon. Chepkonga and other lawyers from the other House. I must commend all the colleagues because we worked very well as brothers. However, there was no sister in the team. I recommend the spirit within which we arrived at this Report. Every issue was agreed on by consensus. We have been bad neighbours with our brothers and sisters from the National Assembly. But now that we are in the same building, I would urge my colleagues to improve our relationship with our brothers in the other House. Mr. Speaker, Sir, we already passed the original version of this Bill on 28th of November, 2013. Very slight amendments have been made and those amendments are to remove the sub-county development boards, the ward development boards to make Governors the Vice Chairpersons of the County Development Boards. We also made different provisions for the women Members, which I will highlight as I take you through the Bill. Mr. Speaker, Sir, Article 96 of the Constitution gives us two roles; first, to protect and promote the interests of the counties. Secondly, is oversight the national resources that go into the counties. The question is: What are those interests? A Senator represents a huge geographical area with varied, opposing and sometimes contradictory interests. It is necessary for us to have a forum where those interests can be mediated. We are not only talking about the funds that go to the county governments, but we are also talking about the national Government funds from those units which are not devolved and which find their way into our counties. There is a need for us to make sure that there is no overlap and misuse of funds either from the national Government or the county governments. So, we cannot represent interests that we do not know about. Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is a very real possibility that a Senator can be alienated or a Senator can be a stranger in the very county that he or she represents. This Bill creates a connection between a Senator and the county. We all know that the Senator is the senior politician in the county. It is his duty to bring all the political forces together and to listen to them in order to get those interests articulated so that he can be informed as he represents those interests before this Senate. What is greater interest than development interest? Wananchi are not interested in the beautiful language that we use. They are not interested in some of the issues that arise out there. They are only interested in tangible issues of development. If a Senator does not address those issues, then he fails in his cardinal duty of representing the county in this Assembly. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Sen. Kiraitu! Your time is up, but I will give you one more minute to conclude.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I urge all the Members to fully support this Bill because of the new spirit that we have. The National Assembly has passed it. Therefore, it will be ridiculous for the Senate which originated this Bill, not to pass it. I thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to support this Motion and, indeed, to thank the Senator for Nandi County for coming up with this very important Bill. I also want to take the opportunity to thank the Mediation Committee for a job well done. This is the first mediation between the two Houses on a matter that initially proved to be divisive. They have managed to find a common ground. The essence of this Bill is to create a forum for the leaders who were elected from the counties to come together and share ideas on how to develop a county. There is nothing sinister about this Bill as it is being spread by other quarters, particularly by the Council of Governors. There is nothing sinister. This Bill does not, in any way, usurp the powers of the Governors nor does it in any way undermine the principles of separation of powers. It does not confer any executive powers to Senators. All it does is to create a forum to exchange ideas on issues of development. This is the most important thing that The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Would I be in order, while I know that this is a Bill that many Senators want to contribute on, to use Standing Order No.98 to bring the debate to closure so that we vote on the same?
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to concur with Sen. Elachi. All of us, at the end of the day, will stand to support the Bill. We are all heading to say the same thing. It is important for us to close it, pass it and move on to another business. What we are saying is a repeat of what has been said once and again. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, hon. Senators! I am inclined to agree with that, given this is a Bill that has already gone through the Motions. Given the fact that I am also alive to the requests on my screen, I will allow four more interventions; two from each side and reduce the time to three minutes each. I hope that is sufficiently democratic.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. With a lot of respect to you as the Speaker, we have moved from 15 minutes to 10 minutes to five minutes and now three minutes. With respect, we may as well have a reply because I do not know what one can say in three minutes to such an important Bill. This Bill affects all of us and is very important. We were hoping we could contribute. However, if you find it fit that the Mover should be called upon to reply, then we will comply. However, three minutes is not adequate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. With a lot of respect to the House, I have my personal reservations in the manner in which we at times curtail very important Bills. Sometimes we sit here for a whole afternoon looking for serious business to debate. When we now have serious business to debate, which every Member wants to debate, we instead want to curtail it. We, as a House, need to be candid with ourselves. There is nothing wrong by saying that we vote on the Bills that were waiting voting. However, this important business can continue and we vote on it tomorrow. I think a Bill of such magnitude and considering its success in terms of bicameral legislature, needs a lot from Members to go on record. Rushing it like this will not encourage anyone in future when you have serious business in the House.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I also concur with the enthusiasm aired by my colleagues that we all have to contribute to this Bill. I am also heavily inclined to remind my colleagues to remember that this is a Bill that concerns counties. As we debate the Bill, we need to be mindful that most Senators are in, but may be going out. At voting time, we need the requisite number of Senators. So, we need to balance the two so that at voting time, we have enough Members present to vote and pass this Bill. We have the numbers now. Probably, we need to think along those lines.
.: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am concerned and want to concur with hon. Members who suggested that we vote quickly. However, I am of a different view, that we need to pass the Bill so that we take it down to the county considering that the budget for this Board must be prepared by the County Governors. I am aware that budgets are almost done. Therefore, it is urgent that we vote now.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I was waiting with a lot of anticipation to debate this Bill. I was not in the Mediation Committee. This is the first Bill of serious magnitude that this House is dealing with. In fact, hon. Murungi was right to say that the Bill is at the heart of this Senate. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Senators! I must confess that I am equally enjoying the debate. I am persuaded by my able Temporary Speaker, Sen. Murkomen and all the Senators who wish that the debate continues. First and foremost, this is primarily a debating Chamber. I think any true democracy worth its name will appreciate that we would rather debate rather than make quick resolutions that have not been exhausted. Otherwise, we will be rendering ourselves irrelevant, anyway. The Homa Bay Senator has agreed with Sen. Murkomen and Sen. Kembi-Gitura that we need to be on record. Our people have sent us here for a purpose. It is important that in future when people are looking at these things, they can confirm that the Head of Delegation from a certain county had these views on this important matter. With regard to the concern by Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. that we need to do it like yesterday, doing it tomorrow or even at the end of the day today will not take away the sense of urgency. This will still take into account your worries. I think I have married many of the views. Therefore, I propose that we adjourn this debate so that we vote on Orders Nos.9 and 10 and dispose of the matter of the substantiation of the allegations and then we can go back to item 8 which is this Motion. We will exhaust it until the end of the day, then we put the Question. It is so ordered.
On a point order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I do not intend to challenge your ruling and, indeed, I cannot. However, the general temptation is that after we vote and go back to this very critical Bill, by the time we reach the end and put the question, we may not have the requisite delegations to vote. Therefore, I want to implore you to vary your order, so that you let the debate to go on and then we vote on all the three Bills at once at the end. That will also be a deterrent to some of our colleagues who may be tempted to run to other things which are legitimate. However, duty calls that we have to be here. That will help us finish these matters conclusively and positively today. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. Wetangula, we are reading from the same script. Do you want to deal with the balance of probabilities or do you want to be assured of, at least, two votes? The third one, even if we do not get it today, there is another day given that this has just started today. Others have been pending, including the reminder by Sen. Wangari, that there was a communication to that effect. You will appreciate that I take into consideration a lot of opinions. But I am afraid on this one; let us proceed the way I have suggested. Let us take the vote and proceed with the debate later. The spirit is to allow as many people as possible to contribute.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I beg to move:- THAT, pursuant to Standing Order No.99 we now adjourn the debate as directed. I move that the debate be adjourned to allow us to vote on Motion No.9 and Bill No.10 under Standing Order No.99.
We are scheduled for a division on this Motion. Hon. Senators, according to Standing Order No.74, any Division shall be by electronic voting. I, therefore, order the Division Bell to be rung. Since we have just adjourned for the purposes of voting, I will order that the Division Bell be rung for one minute.
Hon. Members, if you are representing a delegation, let us know. That matter was raised last week and we agreed that we are addressing it administratively. The purpose of the Bell is to make some notification and I think it serves that purpose even better. Hon. Senators, we will take two votes; Order No.9 first and then we will separately do Order No.10. We will vote in one minute.
Order Senators! We will have to do a second round. Apparently some people are abstaining without wanting to indicate so. That is not allowed. You either vote “yes”, “no” or you abstain. There are many ways of knowing, but I want to give you a second chance. If you have forgotten your card, then you need to notify the Clerks-at-theTable and register. We will give you an oral vote after the other voting has taken place. I will give those ones without cards one minute to register. There is nothing to be embarrassed about it. You should make sure you have logged in and every Senator should be their neighbour’s keeper. I will now give you one minute to vote. Press whichever button that you are interested in once, while leaving the card logged in.
Hon. Senators, I said that the voting will take one minute and it took one minute. That is why on the screens there is “end of voting.” I did not say that the entire process will take one minute. Order, Senators! The results of the Division are as follows:-
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The distinguished Senator for Wajir had his instrument malfunctioning. We requested the Clerks-at-the-Table to give him an opportunity to vote manually. We are 28 Delegations and that is why we are recording 27 votes. It is Sen. Hassan Abdirahman who was unable to vote.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I was also wondering if the electronic voting shows either the names of the counties or the names of the Senators for purposes of record.
The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. Kajwang, unless you confirm that you are not digitally compliant, I will not allow you.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am quite digital.
Then you know what to do.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the improvement of the technology, I think that we should be having on the screen the name of the person voting and the county, so that we can see those who press their button twice. We will see their names disappearing and coming back, and then deal with them. Just as an improvement of this technology, I think that they can work on it. This is something which has been developed in Kenya, because we have very brilliant technologists. They can improve on it as we go along. Since the names appear on the screen of the Speaker and the script that is published later, they can as well appear on the screens.
Order, Senators! I think we have said that the system is working quite well. It may have challenges which have not denied us the ability to vote. Whatever recommendations that are being solicited will, definitely, be taken into account as part of the improvement. However, for now, it is serving us well. The only thing that we are concerned about is the malfunctioning of the gadget, as pointed out it the case of the Senator for Wajir. If you are present and voting and you did not vote, then it is considered disorderly. The fact that the Senate Minority Leader made presentation to that effect that one Member may have had that problem, is when I have given the excuse that maybe it applies across. The only reason I did not want to go to the bottom of it is the time it takes time to confirm whether it was actually malfunctioning, he had actually voted or he logged in after the voting had been concluded. That should be for another day. For now, I am satisfied to proceed as we have done so far. Before the next vote, Sen. Abdirahman, you need to check your gadget.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have reset it now, hoping that it works.
I think that, that might be the problem. Order, Senators! We will now go to the vote on Order No.10, which is The County Governments (Amendment) (No.2) Bill (Senate Bills No.2 of 2014).
Hon. Senators, this is not Sen. Sang’s Bill. This is Sen. Wangari’s Bill. Therefore, I wish to put the Question. We will assume the Division Bell was for everything. It is now time for voting. Is each and every Senator voting logged in? This is a matter affecting counties so we will take one minute to vote. Hon. Senators, I am told that it is being fed into the system first before we do the voting. So, bear with us.
I hear murmurs that they do not know what the Bill is all about. You actually debated it. I want to invite Sen. Wangari for a minute to explain to the House, to refresh the memory of distinguished Senators on what the Bill is all about.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this Bill was a very simple amendment. It was basically on how the county assemblies were constituted. To refresh the memories of hon. Members, when we were sworn in, the county assembly members were also sworn in, in March. However, the nominated Members, including women, youth and people living with disabilities were not sworn in together with the elected Members of the county assemblies. They were actually coming on board as late as July of that year. That means they missed out on very critical decisions that were made by the counties including the constitution of committees. You will find that in many of the committees you will not find a woman, a young person or a person living with disabilities who is a chairperson. That was challenged. It was really unconstitutional because the constitution of the county assemblies is very clear in the Constitution under Article 177. This Bill, therefore, was correcting that wrong, that the first sitting of the county assemblies takes on board every Member of the county assembly. That means that the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (IEBC) should be compelled to do the gazettement in time and the swearing in of the Members.
What was it, Sen. Murkomen? I want to use this issue to confirm about the issue of where Sen. Wangari belongs in terms of delegations. I can confirm from the original county as stated by the Deputy Speaker that she actually belongs to Nairobi County delegation.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think my point of order has been overtaken by events. I am just saying that such a procedure re-opens debate and creates a mechanism not anticipated in the Standing Orders.
That possibility is there, but as you can see it was just information. The Chair is competent enough to deal with contributors who would The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Senators! The Standing Orders do not disqualify you or find you out of order or disorderly for abstaining, for voting negative or positive; whichever way you vote, that is your right. I, therefore, wish to announce the results of the Division. They are as follows.
You may now draw the bar and open the door. Hon. Senators, before we proceed to continue the debate on Order No.9, there was a matter of substantiation which had been raised by Sen. Murkomen. Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’Nyong’o, what do you have to say?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, yesterday during the Motion on Adjournment on a matter of national importance, which I had requested for, I was, indeed, asked to substantiate on a matter regarding the attendance of a meeting at Serena Hotel on Wednesday last week, the 2nd of July, 2014. I would like to really clarify because it must be relevant to that meeting. This meeting was organized by the Media Council of Kenya (MCK) and the invitations were sent to selected officials of the media, particularly editors and officials of the Kenya Editors Guild (KEG). The invitations stated, among other things that:- “Kenya has, in recent months, experienced a host of happenings bordering on national security and freedom of expression. The media is a very trusted institution in Kenya. It is for this reason that people have touted the role of the media in reporting national security issues and political contestations now going on in the country. It is for this reason that the MCK has organized a dialogue session for media owners, editors and various arms of the Government and Parliament that deal with security and communication matters.” The closed door meeting was held on Wednesday last week, as I said, at Serena Hotel beginning 7.00 a.m. in the Hibiscus Room. In attendance were the following: Mr. Sam Shollei, Media Owners Association (MOA) Chairman; Madam Farida Keroney from
, Mr. Davit Ohito, Vice Chairman of the Kenya Editors Guild (KEG); Mr. Samuel Maina, Acting Editor in Chief of Kenya Broadcasting Corporation (KBC); Mr. Michael Mumo, Director of Capital FM ; Mr. Macharia Gaitho, Chair of the KEG---
Order, Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’Nyong’o! Do you have a copy of that?
Yes, I do.
Do you only have one copy?
No, no; I have carried a copy for you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
It would have been good to follow as you also proceed.
Okay, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
You can get your neighbour to bring it to me.
Can you pass it over?
Mr. Wellington Nyongesa, Radio Maisha ; Mr. Linus Kaikai, NTV; Mr. Mwenda Njoka, Director for Communications in the Ministry of Interior and Co-ordination of National Government; the convenor, Dr. Harun Mwangi, CEO and Secretary of the MCK. There is a name that is missing from that list, Mr. Paul Illado, Group Political Editor at The Star . Mr. Speaker, Sir, from the Government were the following: Mr. Masoud Mwinyi, Police Spokesman from the Administration Police (AP); Gen. Muthethe, representing Gen. Julius Karangi; Mr. Joseph Tiampati, the Principal Secretary (PS) representing the Cabinet Secretary (CS) in the Ministry of Information; the Inspector-General of Police, Mr. Kimaiyo; Mr. Mutea Iringo, the PS of the Ministry of Interior and Co-ordination of National Government and Mr. ole Lenku, CS of the Ministry of Interior and Co- ordination of National Government. From Parliament were Members of Parliament as follows: hon. Ndung’u Githenji and hon. Jamleck Kamau. The core subject was insecurity and a worrying Al Shabaab hype in the media. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to apologize to the Senate that Gen. Karangi, who is my friend, and CS Matiangi, who is equally my friend, did not attend this meeting personally, but sent their representatives.
In the case of Gen. Karangi, it was Gen. Mwithethe. In the case of the CS, it was the PS, Joseph Tiampati. So, I will render my sincere apologies to the two gentlemen; both in person and in writing. I render my apologies to the Senate for mentioning those names because they were not personally represented in those meetings. As I said, they were represented by their representatives. I thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. That substantiation---
But let me also make it very clear, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, so that we really do not take this matter beyond what it was intended to be. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, indeed, I am alive to that. But there is something which is worrying me and for which I would like you to guide the House. The Senator has just substantiated that senior officers in charge of security in the country did what they did. Mr. Speaker, Sir, if you will bear with me, in 1972 in the United States of America (USA) exactly the same thing took place. In that case, President Richard Nixon and his close aides ordered harassment of political activists, political groups and political figures using the Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) the Criminal Investigations Agency (CIA) and the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). As a result of that parallel, Richard Nixon was impeached. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in view of this seriousness, I would like you to consider that since we want to discourage our military from walking into the arena of politics, a Committee be formed so that people who have passed this information to the Opposition can enjoy the Witness Protection Act and on oath, give us the details, so that we get to know why, on a purely political issue, the Opposition is being harassed; activists are being harassed and the media is being gagged against the provisions of the Constitution.
Let me take the last intervention from Sen. Mutahi Kagwe in terms of a point of order. Let me say this: The way we are moving, it is very clear in my mind. I will not entertain more and will pronounce myself on this matter decisively.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am, indeed, the person who raised this matter yesterday. First and foremost, I want to thank the Senator for Kisumu, Prof. Anyang’-Nyong’o for being a gentleman. He is not only a professor, but a professor and a gentleman. That is the spirit in which we can take the statement. I want to clarify one small thing. As Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o has rightly said, this meeting was called by the Media Council and not by the Security Council to discuss a matter that is of important to the nation. Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale has quoted 1970s in America. I want to say that I was in America when the Gulf War was declared. I am quite aware that the security apparatus in the States were also engaging the media to tell them that when there is an external threat, there has to be responsibility. That is why, despite the war in the Gulf, you would not find a picture of a dead American soldier in any of the American media stations or newspapers. This is pure nationalism and responsibility. There comes a time to engage all The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order, hon. Senators! It is in your own interest, Senators, that you hear me first. We have to be fair to each other. When Sen. Khalwale went on and on, I heard you urging him to proceed. When a contrary view has been elicited, you are now agitated for closure. Let me put it this way. One, both Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale and Sen. Mutahi Kagwe are out of order.
No, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not think so.
Order, Sen. Wetangula! You are a Minority Leader and I would hate to do the needful. I can only say that Sen. Kagwe’s response was uninvited. He had an interest because he is the one who had put a question to Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o on whether he can substantiate. The HANSARD is very clear on what the issue was. Senator Mutahi Kagwe asked Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o to substantiate the assertion that the two gentlemen were present in a meeting. Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o has come and clarified that position. They were not present at the meeting. He has tendered an apology and even gone further. An apology to the House would be sufficient enough. He has gone further and said that he will write to the two gentlemen. Now, do you wish to flog a dead horse? Even if it is dead, you may want to consider the words of the Attorney-General, lately, about who is a mortician and who is a surgeon. Let us leave that one that way. The only honourable thing to do is that when you fail to substantiate, you apologise and withdraw. That has been done. I will not entertain debate. Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, you are out of order because you are making reference to a point that we all know about President Richard Nixon. He actually ordered. Such an order was not given by the President of the Republic Kenya. You can see why I am saying it is safer that we leave it this way. Let us proceed, hon. Senators. Let us go back to Sen. Sang’s Bill.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to ask my colleagues here that we go straight into voting. We are going through Ramadhan. Sen. Billow has already left. Sen. Hassan also wants to leave. I am requesting that we go straight into voting. I will get two more Senators from outside and we will have the numbers.
That ruling was as a result of the mood of the House. The mood of the House has drastically changed.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as the Mover of the Motion, looking at this House, we do not even have the numbers. You gave directions, earlier, that we continue with debate. My feeling is that we continue with debate, exhaust it and I will reply. As we have always done traditionally, the voting can be scheduled for tomorrow since we do not have the numbers. It would be dangerous for us to imagine that we can get two or three Senators from out there.
order Senators! Let us proceed with debate. If we get the requisite numbers, we still have up to 6.30 p.m. to conclude the matter. You can always petition the Chairperson to call for the vote. You know the requisite Standing Orders. So, if we will not have the numbers, we will proceed as we had decided earlier. I plead with the Whips and the leadership; the Senate Majority Leader and the Senate Minority Leader that we must conclude this matter, at least, by tomorrow. This is our Bill. It has already gone through a mediation process. The National Assembly has already voted on it. It will not be kind to ourselves and to them if we appear to be the ones procrastinating on the Bill.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I request that you direct this to be the first business of the day tomorrow knowing that on a Thursday many Members will want to go to their constituencies. We will vote on it and those who want to take the liberty to leave can leave.
I will direct so if you assure me by the commencement of business we will have the requisite numbers. So, do we have a deal? Let us proceed. Sen. Muthama, by the way, it is a directive. You do not need to respond to it.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is just to make the Chair aware of what should be expected tomorrow. Thursdays have turned out to be the most difficult days to get Members in this House. We have even discussed this issue in the Rules and Business Committee. On Thursdays, we have been sending messages to Senators to request them to be in the Chamber in order to attend to the business of the day. So, tomorrow could be The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. Muthama, until the words come from your mouth is when they make sense. I had said as much until your leader talked of tomorrow. I gave both options that you can actually continue debate. The moment you raise the requisite numbers, you can always call for the vote because the Standing Orders enable you. If you do not, there is a tomorrow. The only disclaimer I put was that by tomorrow, we must dispose of the matter. Let us proceed now. Who wishes to contribute? Sen. Murkomen, for no other reason, but in particular for being compliant today.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. First of all, I would like to appreciate the work done by Sen. Sang and the Mediation Committee in ensuring that this Bill finally goes through the constitutional procedures that are required by our constitution. You can see the benefit and the fruit of the processes contemplated by the Constitution, particularly when we talk about processes.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am concerned that the amber light has been switched on and yet I still have 15 minutes.
No. You have ten minutes.
That order has not been given.
We had agreed five minutes. However, it is up to you, if you want us to increase the time.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thought that order was in regard to the initial issue. I do not want to argue with you.
The order that we did not pass was the three minutes, but the five minutes had been carried.
Let me begin now, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
We will allow you to begin now. You have five minutes.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to appreciate the work that has been done by the Mediation Committee. You can see that the Bill as initiated by this House has gone through various changes, including finally having a Bill that has removed the fora that were provided for in the ward and the constituency. This is the benefit of a bicameral legislature. The reason we have a bicameral legislature is to facilitate dialogue and consultation to the extent that, finally, you agree on something that both Houses think is good for the country. I want to appreciate the two Houses. I want also to appreciate the work that has been done by Sen. Sang and his team and the work that was done by Hon. Chepkonga and his team from the other House. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Asante sana, Bw. Spika. Nikiunga Mswada huu, ningetaka kuwapongeza wale Maseneta watatu waliotuwaakilisha vizuri katika Kamati hii. Ningependa kuwapongeza kwa kazi nzuri waliotekeleza katika kikao hiki cha kuratibisha Mswada huu. Lengo la Mswada huu linadhihirika wazi wazi na haina haja tukumbushane kwa sababu tuliwahi kutoa maoni yetu kuhusu Mswada huu hapo mbeleni. Hata hivyo, Sen. Sang ambaye alipendekeza Mswada huu inafaa ajue kwamba siku huwa na alfajiri, adhuhuri na jioni. Siku njema huonekana asubuhi. Pia siasa nzuri huonekana mapema. Akiendelea hivyo, ninaona siku nzuri imeanza na imedhihirika kwa mawazo yake, katika siasa yake nzuri na mapendekezo yake yenye maana na hekima kwa Bunge hili. Ninaamini ya kwamba Magavana watasoma Mswada huu na kuuelewa vizuri. Ni Mswada wa uwiano na kuleta watu pamoja. Unahimiza kukaa, kufikiria na kutekeleza mapendekezo ya maendeleo mashinani vilivyo. Kulingana na desturi za Waafrika kikao kilicho na mzee kinatosha. Seneta ni mzee wa kaunti kulingana na Katiba yetu. Ni lazima apewe wajibu wake kuwa mwenyekiti wa kikao hiki na kutoa mashauri na si amri, kufuatana na mapendekezo ya viongozi wa mashinani, wakiwemo Wabunge. Bw. Spika, pia ningependa kuwataatharisha kwamba mwisho wa Mswada huu unatoa hukumu kwa yeyote yule atakayefikiria kwamba anaweza kuhujumu kazi hii isitekelezwa kule mashinani. Bw. Spika, naunga mkono.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for allowing me to add my voice to this very important Bill. Mr. Speaker, Sir, first of all, I want to appreciate the efforts that were made by Members of the Mediation Committee. I want to thank the Members from the Senate who have played their role effectively. I also want to note that the supremacy battles between the two Houses seem to be waning. It is important that we reduce those divisions, because it does not pay. It is important that both Houses agree for the interest of this nation on matters that affect our people. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the passage of this Bill will go a long way in actually building consensus among the political leadership, irrespective of who performs an executive function and who performs a legislative function at the national level. It will also help in addressing the serious disparities in terms of development within counties. It will actually The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Senator, your time is up!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to support. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to join my colleagues in thanking Sen. Sang and the Mediation Committee for finally coming up with this Report, in which we now see light at the end of the tunnel. Mr. Speaker, Sir, Article 1 of the Constitution says that all sovereign powers belongs to the people of Kenya and shall be exercised only in accordance with this Constitution. It goes further to say that it can be exercised through elected leaders. The Senators and Members of the National Assembly are elected leaders. By being involved in development matters in the constituencies, they are not trespassing. It is their duty. Since the Senate represents the counties, I wonder how Senators will represent the counties effectively if they have no forum with the leadership at the county level to discuss issues on which they can now effectively represent. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Constitution also talks about inclusivity and participation. The county government is not an exclusive place for the county assembly and the executive. The elected leaders at the national level also have a role to play. The County Development Board is a forum and does not, at the end of the day, make legal provisions that will supersede the role of the county assemblies. The county assemblies still have their power to make the final decisions. Currently, in many counties, there are duplications. We know that in some counties they have funds allocated to wards and the CDF is there. There is no limit and there is duplication all through. This is not healthy. There is unhealthy competition that is going on and it is only fair that whenever disputes arise we sort them out. There is no organization whether we are talking about a cattle dip, a nursery school or even big private companies that can run without a board. When governors say that they want counties to run on their own without involvement of other leaders, we wonder how they will succeed. It is important that these boards be there. It will be good for the county government and the national Government. Mr. Speaker, Sir, regarding the issue of nominated Members of this Senate, perhaps, one day we shall come back to it and look at it. It is good to consider including them as ex officio . I would personally feel comfortable to sit with my Senators and Members of National Assembly. Their jurisdiction should also be wide because they can go to any county. If one is representing the youth like Sen. Kanainza, she can go to any county to articulate issues that concern the youth. With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also rise to congratulate Sen. Sang. I also want to congratulate those who managed to mediate over this matter. Considering that the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget is also in the process of mediating with the National Assembly on the matter of Division of Revenue Bill, I think it is a good starting point. Article 96(3) of the Constitution mandates Senators to oversight expenditure that has been given to them by the national Government. To me, this forum that has been created by Sen. Sang’s Bill is a way of giving effect to Article 96(3) because even as The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Considering that every speaker is supporting this Motion---
Proceed, hon. Senator. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Considering that every speaker is supporting this Motion, would I be in order to ask the Chair to request the Mover to respond?
Order, Senators! I, therefore, wish to put the Question under Standing Order No.98 – Closure of Debate. That the Mover be now called upon to reply.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I know I have 30 minutes to reply, allow me to donate a few minutes to the Members as we also finalize. I want to donate three minutes to Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o, two minutes to Sen. Hassan, two minutes to Sen. Obure, one and a half minutes to my friend Sen. Wangari and one minute to the young people represented by Sen. Kanainza. The balance, I will distribute them later on.
Sen. Sang, you may wish to extend your generosity to Sen. Njoroge.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also donate one and a half minutes to Sen. Njoroge. Since it is my time, I would request that you give the first priority to Sen. Wangari, then progressively to other Senators.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to oppose this mediated report and the Bill because you will remember that when it was first moved on this Floor, I was one of the strongest proponents of the Bill. But as it is, it leaves out the women of this country; it leaves the youth and it leaves out the people living with disabilities who are sitting in office, not by favour, but by constitutional right. Even the women representatives who were recommended to be deputies were thrown out.
Secondly, Mr. Speaker, Sir, the composition of the Mediation Committee only had men; that means we lost this battle from the beginning. But I hope that this will not be repeated and that next time, it is considered that these women are there by right. Even if it has to be a man, then we have men living with disabilities in this House; that the two Houses can include them not by favour or by privilege, but by right. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to oppose.
Sen. Hassan Omar. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to support this Bill and, at the same time, commend the Mediation Committee for coming up with this excellent undertaking. I think what we need to do is to device methodologies through the provisions in this Bill that will allow us to invite our colleagues who are nominated so that they can participate in these forums. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wanted to share what Sen. Kagwe indicated, that this Bill actually strengthens the role of consultations in decision-making and actually provides that cover for Governors to be participative and inclusive in decision making. I do not see any fears that the Governors are trying to express that this Bill in any way usurps or encroaches on the roles of the Executive. Most of these Senators here are people with distinction and who will distinguish where their boundaries are and where the boundaries they must never cross are. I think, therefore, as we pass this Bill, most of us will take that personal responsibility to ensure that we stay the course and allow the Governors to do their job while we do our jobs as Senators. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to support.
Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’Nyong’o, you have three minutes.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as a former Minister for Planning and National Development, I would like to strongly support this Motion and this Bill.
I support it because, one, it is going to allow us, as Senators, to ensure that not only do we supervise and co-ordinate planning and development at the county level, but it will also open up opportunities for cross-county collaboration. This is because there are a lot of development projects that can be better implemented if counties collaborate. For example, the Lake Basin counties, which are about nine, could do a lot of things together and enhance development if there is proper co-ordination and planning. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is important that the office of the Chairman, although we say that we are only going to sit four times a year for two hours, in between, it is extremely important to plan for the meetings. So, I hope that the office of the Senator will be empowered properly to ensure that the co-ordination of this work in the county and the collaboration among counties is something that we take seriously so that what we do is not just in form but in content. So, Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is an extremely important landmark in the history of this Senate and I hope that an issue like inclusivity, particularly of the nominated Members, is reasonably covered in that sub-article that has been referred to in Article 91(a)(m), which gives room for inviting ex-officio persons to participate in the meetings. I think it is upon the Chairman of these meetings to ensure that we reach out to those groups of people that Sen. Wangari has referred to, including our Nominated Members. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. Obure! What is it, Sen. Muthama?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, if I may remind the Chair, your ruling and directive is that as soon as we have the numbers, we go straight to voting.
It is not up to the Mover of the Bill to decide on the business of the House but the Chair.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, Sen. Hassan, Sen. Abdirahman and others here want to break for Ramadhan, and we have to respect that. Let us go into voting.
Order, Senators! Order! Order, Sen. Muthama! Let me clarify to you. The Speaker directs, but my directive to the extent of the closure of the debate. The requisite Standing Order was invoked and the Mover has decided not only to exhaust the time allowed to him, but also to extend his generosity to other Senators. Sen. Muthama, I think you cannot find offense in an act of generosity. So, I think we need to persuade the Senators concerned just to indulge the House for the few minutes remaining, because the time has already started running out. Proceed, Sen. Chris Obure.
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to thank Sen. Sang for his generosity. I want to thank him also for the initiative, first of all, to bring this very important Bill and for participating in this mediation effort. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to try and allay the fears of Sen. Wangari, first, by informing her that the elected Women Representatives are actually Members of this Board. In addition, Senators who will be chairing these meetings will ensure that your interests are taken on board. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
What is it, Sen. Njoroge?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, is it in order for the Senator from Kisii to refer to women representatives at the ward as representing women in this board when for sure they come from the National Assembly? We are also referring to the Senate and also the county assemblies. Is he in order?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was just trying to allay the fears by informing Sen. Wangari that the situation is not as bad as she thinks, because Members of County Assembly (MCAs) who are women will be Members of this forum. Mr. Speaker, Sir, devolution is a new concept in this country---
On a point of information, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
No, please; I have only two minutes.
Your time will be saved.
If my time will be saved, that is fine.
Order, Senators! We are not saving any time!
Okay. Devolution is a new concept and a new phenomenon and in the initial period of implementation, we expect problems. Even as we go along, we expect new challenges to emerge and it is up to this Senate to respond. In this case, we are responding through this Bill by creating new forums and new structures to ensure that we address the challenges that emerge.
Order, Senator; your time is up! Proceed, Sen. Njoroge.
Bw. Spika, ningependa kukushukuru kwa kunipa nafasi hii. Kwanza, ningependa kuipinga Hoja hii. Licha ya mjadala huu kuwa mzuri, kuweka kando walemavu ambao walichaguliwa kwenye kaunti ni dhuluma na ubaguzi wa hali ya juu. Bodi hii itakapokuwa inakaa, walemavu watakuwa wakiwakilishwa na kina nani? Hii ni bodi ya kaunti ambayo itakuwa ikijihusisha na mambo ya maendeleo. Ikiwa katiba ilipiganiwa na ikapita na tukapewa nafasi hizi, sielewi kwa nini Seneti na NationalAssembly zilifikiria kutunyima nafasi hizo. Ingekuwa afadhali kama tungewaweka walemavu katika Bodi hiyo badala ya kuwaacha nje.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Nominated Senator, Sen. Njoroge, in order to mislead the country that in this Bill, the disabled have The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Bw. Spika, alichosema ni jambo la kutia kidonda chumvi. Kusema mlevu atawakilishwa. Akishawakilishwa---
.: Thank you Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to support this Motion on two accounts. First, this is one of these things that we need in this country for purposes of transparency. We will help the public to understand that the idea of devolution is not just about when governors are coming to Senate to ask for money. This is a symbiotic relationship between the Senate and the counties which is two- way. They should not just be coming to us when they need money. When they go back to the counties, they tell the public that Senators have nothing to do, have no money and they have nothing to do at the counties. There are instances where trees have been planted and they have been referred to as “governor’s trees.” I would like to stop there because I participated in the debate and in a great deal in the drafting and the public hearings of this. I support.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Mediation Committee has done its part. It is very important for us to have a board that will be in charge of development. I rise to strongly oppose this Report by the Mediation Committee. Sen. Khalwale talked about part “m” and said that some people will be attending the Board meetings on invitation. That is not right. The reason for this is that the young people of this country are not an “AOB.” We are part of the systems and our issues in terms of development must be captured. We will not leave it to some people to decide what the young people of this nation are supposed to get.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, first, I want to thank the Mediation Committee. I want to say this. In terms of affirmative action, we have come from very far. I plead with all our Members to move in a direction where we can lobby and see things work. We want to thank the National Assembly for what they have done. Most of us who have gone through the lobbying to ensure that the Bill goes through know that we have a long way to go. For the sake of women, we will have an amendment later. So, I plead that we pass the Bill. I will also ask the Senators to ensure that whenever there is a meeting and someone wants to attend, that you allow them to be there and take part in the discussions.
Finally, let us have Sen. Sang. Do it in three minutes.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not intend to use more than three minutes. However, I must appreciate the contribution and the lobbying that Members of this House have done. We know the challenges we have had with the National Assembly were great The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
I order that the Division Bell to be rung for 30 seconds. Hon. Senators, take this opportunity to inform us if you have been delegated to vote. Let us know so that we activate your card. Make sure your cards are not malfunctioning.
Order, Senators! The results of the Division are as follows:-
Order, Senators! It is now time to adjourn the sitting of the House. The Senate stands adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, 10th July, 2014, at 2.30 p.m. The House rose at 6.20 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.