We do not have a quorum. Ring the Quorum Bell, please.
Hon. Members, we are now properly constituted. We can start business.
Hon. Members, this Communication refers to appearance before the Departmental Committee on Lands by the Cabinet Secretary for Lands, Housing and Urban Development.
Hon. Members, I have received a complaint from the Cabinet Secretary for Lands, Housing and Urban Development, hon. Charity Ngilu, EGH; that the Departmental Committee on Lands seeks to censure her for not appearing before it on 11th November, 2014. This is a matter of concern as the true position on the issue is as follows:- On 31st October, 2014, the Cabinet Secretary was invited by the Clerk of the National Assembly to appear before the Constitutional Implementation Oversight Committee (CIOC) on Tuesday, 11th November, 2014 at 10.00 a.m. In the meantime, the Cabinet Secretary appeared before the Lands Committee on 4th November, 2014 and the meeting was re-scheduled to Tuesday, 11th November, 2014 at 10.00 at the request of the Cabinet Secretary. This re-scheduling obviously led to a mix up where the same Cabinet Secretary was required to appear before two Committees at the same time. Aware of this, the Clerk’s Office, on Monday, 10th November, 2014 got in touch with the Office of the Cabinet Secretary and was informed that the Cabinet Secretary would appear before the CIOC, being the invitation that went to her earlier, and that the Cabinet Secretary had requested to appear before the Lands Committee at a later date. A letter from the Cabinet Secretary to this effect was received in Parliament’s Registry on 10th November, 2014 at 4.00 p.m. and was dispatched to the Committee on Tuesday, 11th November, 2014. I am also informed by the Clerk’s Office that indeed the Lands The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Committee, in their meeting on 11th November, 2014 was informed of the unavailability of the Cabinet Secretary as she was appearing before the CIOC. Despite this information, the Lands Committee elected to call a Press conference to castigate the Cabinet Secretary. From the foregoing, it is obvious that the Cabinet Secretary was not at fault and you will all agree that she has dutifully honoured our invitations in the past. I accordingly ask the Lands Committee to discharge their mandate as per the Standing Orders and respect public officers and witnesses. I also direct that no Committee will use the media to summon any person to appear before a Committee of the House as the Clerk of the National Assembly is the only person authorised to invite public officers and summon witnesses. As the Office of the Clerk does this, the invitation should be synchronised to avoid mix-ups in the event that the Committees re-schedule their sittings without knowledge of other planned meetings. Thank you.
Hon. Chris Wamalwa, I can see that you are on a point of order. What is it?
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I rise to seek some clarifications from the Chair regarding the Communication that you have just made. I do not know whether we are setting a precedent. Maybe, we will be opening a Pandora’s Box. Whenever Cabinet Secretaries do not show up in the Committees, it becomes the order of the day for such Communications to be made here. So, I just wanted clarification as to whether it was in order for the letter to come to your Office directly. Should it not have gone to the Office of the Clerk for onward transmission to the relevant Departmental Committee? In line with Article 125 of the Constitution, a Parliamentary Committee can summon anybody, anywhere at any time. The jurisdiction of oversight of the Ministry of Lands is squarely under the Committee on Lands. The matter that the Committee on Lands was delving into was a matter of public interest, and was a matter of urgency given the seriousness of the matter.
The clarification was very clear. Communication between Parliament and other institutions goes through the Clerk of the National Assembly. Even if communication emanates from a Committee of this House, it is directed through the Office of the Clerk. That is really the message.
Hon. Members, I do not want us to spend too much time because I have obviously communicated that there was an oversight. That is why the clarification was required.
Hon. Speaker, I want to confirm that I am a Member of the CIOC, and that the Cabinet Secretary appeared before my Committee when she was also supposed to appear before the Committee on Lands. Apart from that, we also need to seek clarification from the leadership of the House in both the National Assembly and the Senate. This is because a Committee of this House summons a Cabinet Secretary to appear before it on a certain issue and then a Committee of the Senate calls the same Cabinet Secretary on the same matter. We are not saying that our Cabinet Secretaries or any other person who is supposed to appear before Parliament should not appear, but we need to limit the summonses so that we do not waste a lot of their time appearing before Committees of this House and Committees of the Senate. The Committee on Lands should have consulted first before issuing threats in the media.
Thank you. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
That is, indeed, the gist of the Communication, that Parliament is not run through the media. Our Standing Orders stipulate very clearly how witnesses and Government officers are supposed to be invited to appear before Committees of Parliament. Hon. Members, mine was really a minor clarification. Yes, hon. Mwadeghu.
Mhe. Naibu Spika, ninaomba niheshimu uamuzi wako na mwelekeo wako kwa Bunge. Hata hivyo, mimi ni mwanachama wa Kamati ya Ardhi. Matamshi yangu hayamaanishi kwamba ninaupinga uamuzi wako. Wakati tulipotoa uamuzi wetu, kama Kamati, hatukuwa tumeipata barua uliyoinakili hapa. Kama tungekuwa tumeipata, labda uamuzi wetu ungekuwa tofauti. Kutokana na uamuzi wako, inabainika kwamba Kamati ya Bunge ilienda kinyume na kanuni na sheria za Bunge kwa kuzungumzia suala hilo kwa vyombo vya habari. Kamati ya Bunge haikuwa na habari kabisa kuhusu waraka huo. Ndiyo maana Kamati ya Bunge imetoa mwelekeo mwingine. Je, hiyo barua ilikuwa wapi? Hayo ndiyo mambo ambayo ningependa yawekwe wazi. Ndiyo maana Kamati ya Ardhi inafikiria kwamba labda kuna udanganyifu fulani ama kuna mambo fulani ambayo yanatokea bila ya kuwepo kwa uwazi. Kama tungekuwa tumeipata barua hiyo, bila shaka uamuzi wetu ungekuwa tofauti. Ninaomba nieleweke na wenzangu kuwa Kamati haikuwa imeipata barua hiyo. Ahsante.
Yes, hon. Murugi.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I just want to echo what hon. Mwadeghu has said. The head of the Committee secretariat got the said later at 4.00 p.m. on 11th November, 2014. The meeting took place at 10.00 a.m. So, who is fooling who? That is the question that is baffling all of us. The Cabinet Secretary knew that she was supposed to appear before the Committee for the meeting. She is the one who requested to come on Tuesday; it was not the Committee. So, the least that she could have done was just to communicate the same information to the Committee. We did not have time to just sit there and wait for somebody who was appearing in another Committee she thought was more important. The issue that I want to address is that even though she says that she is obedient, and that she has honoured our previous summonses, one can be obedient and appear before a Committee with half-cooked information – which is what has been happening. Thank you.
Yes, hon. Njagagua.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, mine is, firstly, to seek intervention. I have just consulted my colleagues here and it is apparent that is a bit too cold in here. So, if the technicians could work on that bit. Secondly, I would like to comment on the issue of the Committee on Lands. I have just received a 411 breaking news in my phone. As we are seated here, the Members of the Committee have signed a petition to censure or kick out the Lands Cabinet Secretary. I do not believe every time a Cabinet Secretary does not attend a Parliamentary Committee session, we rush to censure them. We are giving the impression that the Government is not working. Maybe, it is time that you, as the Speaker, sits with the Chairmen of the Committees to advise them on what to do in the event such a thing The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
happens. They do not need to always rush to the media or undertake to censure Cabinet Secretaries.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, protect me from these hostile Members. Protect me from hon. Wamunyinyi.
Order! Order, hon. Members! Hon. Njagagua shall be heard! He has got his opinion, and he is entitled to it. You may not agree with him, but that is his opinion. Allow him to prosecute it.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, if the hon. Members have a different opinion, they should catch your eye, so that they can give it.
Hon. Members, I am inclined to close this debate. I do not want us to go any further with it. My Communication is very clear. There is nothing more to be added. All communication to and from Parliament emanate from the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly. That is the message. The second message, of course, is that Parliament is not run in the media. Those two messages are what I need to come out clearly.
Hon. Members, I have a Petition to convey to the House-- -
Hon. Members, when are you going to understand that when the Speaker is upstanding, you are supposed to be seated? You need to be looking up to know whether the Speaker is standing or seated. Hon. Shakeel, you are not a new Member.
Hon. Members, I have a Petition to convey regarding the removal of the Chairperson of the National Gender and Equality Commission. Standing Orders require that the Speaker reports to the House any Petition other than those presented through a Member. Therefore, I wish to convey to the House that my office has received a Petition regarding removal of the Chairperson of the National Gender and Equality Commission. The Petition is signed by one Erastus Odiyo of P.O. Box 15242- 00100, Nairobi, stating that Miss Winfred Lichuma, the Chairperson of the National Gender and Equality Commission is in serious violation of the Constitution. Amongst the claims made by the petitioner is that the Chairperson has severally acted contrary to the Constitution, the National Gender and Equality Commission Act, 2011, and the Public Procurement and Disposal Act by discriminating in employment, of The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
public officers serving in the Commission and there are alleged claims of interfering in procurement of goods and services. The petitioner further contends that the Chairperson is culpable of the mismanagement of affairs of the Commission, amongst other claims relating to incompetence and gross misconduct. In this regard, the petitioner prays that:- (i) the National Assembly resolves that this Petition discloses grounds for the removal of the named Chairperson under Article 251(1)(a), (b) and (d) of the Constitution of Kenya; and, (ii) the National Assembly recommends to His Excellency the President to appoint a tribunal to investigate the named Chairperson in accordance with the provisions of Article 251(4) of the Constitution.
Hon. Members, a petition of this nature is not new to the House. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order No. 203, this Petition shall stand committed to the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs for consideration.
The work of the Committee is to guide the House by way of a report on whether the Petition satisfies the requirements of Article 251of the Constitution and any other relevant law relating to the grounds for removal of a person from a constitutional commission. The Committee has 14 days within which to submit a report to the House as required under Paragraph 4 of Standing Order No.230. For avoidance of doubt, once the Committee tables its report the House will have ten days within which to consider the report and decide whether or not the Petition discloses a ground for removal of the Chairperson.
I thank you.
On a point of order, hon. Deputy Speaker.
What is your point of order, hon. Chepkong’a?
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. As you know you have committed that Petition to our Committee in accordance with Standing Order No.230 and you have---
It is not clear. Can we have some volume because we cannot hear the Chairman?
Hon. Deputy Speaker, it is just because I am sitting in the wrong seat. You know I am too tall. I should have sat at the back.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, we have some little bit of difficulties in terms of prosecuting that Petition within the timelines. We would like to request that you give us more time. We will apply for more time when we come next week. As you know, we have the Companies Bill and the Insolvency Bill and we are under a lot of pressure from the Executive to ensure that we conclude these Bills.
Hon. Chepkong’a, are you not jumping the gun really? Should you not first meet with your Committee and look at the Standing Orders and make that decision as a Committee and not individually?
No, hon. Deputy Speaker. I am not making that application right now. I am just informing the House that there is every likelihood when we meet as a Committee because of the matters that are pending in this Committee that are of urgent nature. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
You know how to communicate that. You can communicate that in the proper manner. Who is putting the point of order? Is it hon. Dawood?
Yes, hon. Deputy Speaker. I need your guidance on a Petition I brought over three months back. Two weeks ago the Speaker gave direction that it should be taken to the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security but when I speak to the Director of Committees she tells me it is with the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs. So, I am at a loss which committee will pursue my Petition for compensation. Is it the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs or the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security?
At the time the Petition is being read, it is committed to a specific committee.
Yes, hon. Deputy Speaker. At that time I was told that it was to be taken to the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security. Later I am told that it should be taken to the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs but when I speak to its Chairman he says he has never seen it and yet the Director of Committee Services says it is with the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs which should deal with it and it is over 90 days now.
Okay. I direct the Clerk’s office to tell us exactly where that Petition is right now. The staff before me, can we get exactly the position of where this Petition of hon. Dawood is currently being processed?
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table of the House today, Thursday, November 13th 2014:- The Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the University of Nairobi Press for the year ended 30th June 2013 and the certificate of the Auditor-General therein. The Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Kenya Dairy Board Limited for the year ended 30th June 2013 and the certificate of the Auditor-General therein. The Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission for the year ended 30th June 2013 and the certificate of the Auditor-General therein. The Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Kenya Medical Research Institute for the year ended 30th June 2013 and the certificate of the Auditor- General therein. The Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the National Drought Management Authority for the year ended 30th June 2013 and the certificate of the Auditor-General therein. The Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Kenyatta National Hospital for the year ended 30th June 2013 and the certificate of the Auditor-General therein. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
The Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Kenya Institute of Public Policy, Research and Analysis for the year ended 30th June 2013 and the certificate of the Auditor-General therein and lastly, The Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the Council for Legal Education/Kenya School of Law for the year ended 30th June 2013 and the certificate of the Auditor-General therein. Thank you.
Thank you, hon. Melly.
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table of the House today, Thursday 13th November 2014:-
The Report of the Departmental Committee on Education, Research and Technology on the vetting of the nominee for the position of the Chairperson of the Teachers Service Commission, Dr. Lydia N. Nzomo.
Thank you. Before I go to the next Order, I want to recognise the presence of Dr. Godana Memorial Boys High School from North Horr Constituency, Marsabit County and it is the very first time that they have come to the National Assembly. They are most welcome.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:-
THAT pursuant to Section 8 of the Teachers Service Commission Act and the provision of Standing Order No.45, this House adopts the Report of the Departmental Committee on Education, Research and Technology and approves the appointment of Dr. Lydia N. Nzomo as the Chairperson of the Teachers Service Commission.
I request hon. Anami to second.
No, you do not need a seconder for notice of Motion. It is okay. Next Order.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order to find out from the Leader of Majority Party what has happened to the resolution of this House which The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
was passed in June regarding San Marco Space Application Centre. In that resolution, the report of the Departmental Committee on Energy, Communication and Information and the Departmental Committee on Education, Research and Technology recommended that the Government should immediately form Kenya Space Agency to take over the management of San Marco Space Application Centre in Malindi.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, the same report recommended that the Government should either negotiate a new agreement with the Government of Italy or else the Government should take over the station. Since that time the Government has only extended the agreement by the Italian Government to continue running the station from June to September.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, from September that space centre has no management and, therefore, I wish to know from the Leader of the Majority Party what has happened.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I wanted hon. (Dr.) Ottichilo to table evidence that there was---
Order, hon. Members! There is too much movement
Hon. Deputy Speaker, hon. Elmi and hon. (Ms.) A.W. Ng’ang’a must have some serious business. Maybe they will tell us later. The matter that hon. (Dr.) Ottichilo is raising is very serious but to my knowledge, a taskforce was formed at the Deputy President’s Office which was to advise the Government. I will write to the Government and share the report with hon. (Dr.) Ottichilo. Ultimately whichever way it goes, if an agreement is going to be signed between the Government of Kenya and the Government of Italy, that same agreement must be ratified by the National Assembly of the Republic of Kenya and not the Senate. I want to confirm that, that is a function of the National Assembly. So, if they are hearing me they should know that ratification of international treaties is an exclusive function of the National Assembly.
It is not a county function.
Yes, it is not a county function. We will bring information to Parliament because it is sad that from the end of September to date, the San Marco Center has had no management. That is very sad and if you allow me I will write to the Government and on Tuesday next week bring an answer to the House or ask the House to invite the Cabinet Secretary for Defence and the Cabinet Secretary for Foreign Affairs to explain what has happened.
On a point of order, hon. Deputy Speaker.
What is it, hon. Midiwo?
Hon. Midiwo, you continue not to have your card or is it just today? The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I am sorry. You know I am always obedient. I always have my card but it has refused to work. So, it is not to continue; it is only once.
I do not know about you always being obedient but let us go ahead.
I am very obedient, hon. Deputy Speaker. Let me encourage my friend, the Leader of Majority Party, to take this issue seriously. This is a scenario where the Italian Government exploited our Government over the years. A report was done by a Parliamentary Committee. The report came before this House belatedly. We made certain recommendations and this House cannot allow non-implementation of a report, especially after we caught those people looting from our public good. This is not a very small matter because those people were minting millions and Kenyans including the military have no idea what happens in San Marco. For all we know, it could be used for terrorism purposes. We do not know. You use our public good without our knowledge and without paying us. So we want to urge the Leader of Majority Party because he has promised to bring a report on Tuesday, that we do not want a report only. We want a report with a plan of action of implementation. Thank you.
On a point of order, hon. Deputy Speaker.
Is this on the same?
Yes, hon. Deputy Speaker. I was listening to what the Leader of Majority Party was saying. He said that after we had passed that report in this House, the Government went ahead to form a taskforce to investigate again. It is very sad because this is an issue that has been under discussion since 2012. I remember one time the Departmental Committee on Energy, Communication and Information and the one in charge of transport handling that issue. There is a lot of sensitive data that is being collected through that facility and Kenyans do not benefit. We are paying a lot of money even to get that data back. We would like this issue to be handled with a lot of urgency because if we do not, we pay a lot of money on data that is collected from us and we never get anything. Unless something is done, I do not know---
Order, hon. Members! There is much communication and movement on the Floor.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, most of the data that is being collected---
I do not know why hon. Langat is getting applauded. I do not know why. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, it is because Benja has not been around for a long time and everybody was wondering where he disappeared to. So we are only asking that the Leader of Majority Party gets us that report immediately because with that information being that sensitive and Kenyans paying a lot for it, something needs to be done urgently.
Leader of Majority Party, you can see this is really being canvassed from all sides of the divide.
Hon. Ng’ongo, you still want to canvass it further?
Hon. Deputy Speaker, it is very clear that any foreign organization or country enjoying our resources is actually criminal. We made a resolution as the National Assembly. When I listened to the Leader of Majority Party who when this Motion was before the House made a very positive contribution to it, today he appears like he has joined the bandwagon or a group of people who have allowed those people to enjoy our resources without paying for it. I need more assurance from the Leader of Majority Party that we have not lost him to that cartel of people who are--- It is not the foreign nation that is benefiting from that resource, it is some Kenyans, I believe. It appears there are some people who are blocking the implementation of our report. Could I get confidence back on the issue of our Leader of Majority Party because if we lose him, then I do not know whom we are going to lose next. May be we are going to lose the Mover of the Motion next. I am worried and the Leader of Majority Party needs to clarify.
If I remember, hon. (Dr.) Ottichilo has been on this case for a long time; from the last Parliament. So, I do not think you are about to lose him and I doubt whether you are losing the Leader of Majority Party. Leader of Majority Party, just give the assurance and we can move to the next Order. This has been canvassed enough.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I want to confirm that I am not a member of any cartel and there is no Kalausi in the Jubilee Coalition. The only small groups that you can join in this Parliament are from the ODM side which is disintegrating into different factions. But I want to assure the House that on Tuesday, a clear position on San Marco will be availed by the Government.
Order, Leader of the Majority Party! I know you want to engage in politics. I do not think that is where hon. (Dr.) Ottichilo was taking us.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, as Parliament, we make sure that we do not pass resolutions in this Parliament in vain. That is why we created a brand new Committee in the Tenth Parliament which both you and I served. We came up with the Committee on Implementation. Before we take the issue to the Leader of Majority Party, we need answers from the Committee on Implementation so that they take up this issue The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
and give us an answer. If they cannot, then as a House, we can take the necessary decision. That is where we need to raise the case.
Hon. Members are flouting the rule on standing between the Speaker and the person on the Floor. Hon. Ng’ongo, you are almost a third term Member of Parliament.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, we need the Committee on Implementation to take up this issue very fast and give this House a response. We can then go further and take it up with the Executive. The Committee on Implementation has failed to take the necessary action and the case rests with us in this House.
Yes, that is well put. We need to know from the Committee on Implementation before we can even move to the Executive. We need to see what the Committee on Implementation has done and whether they have any report on this matter. I can see hon. Gikaria, the Vice Chair of the Committee on Implementation.
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I want to appreciate what hon. Ganya has just said. It is true that as Committee, we have taken up the issue of San Marco Space Centre. In fact, at some point we needed to visit that place just to understand whether the actual implementation has been done. This is what we were discussing in our meeting today. We have come up with a tracking tool which will show where we are in terms of implementation. Of course, we have agreed with the Information and Communication Technology (ICT) Department to take it up. They were supposed to make request to the senior management of Parliament to spend Kshs350,000 so that we can have that tracking tool in place.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, immediately that is done by the Office of the Clerk and his team, we will at any one time be able to take this resolution at this level. That is going to help us and I take this opportunity to urge the Clerk; if he has received that request from the ICT Department, to speed up the process of giving out the money. Once that tool is in place we can then track the implementation of resolutions.
The ICT people assured us that if they get the money, within two weeks the tracking tool will be available for every hon. Member and the public will be able to scrutinize implementation of resolutions.
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker.
Okay, thank you. At least, there are efforts to enable us track where the different resolutions passed before this House can be located. Let us now move to the next Order. We have another short statement by hon. Gatobu Kinoti. Is hon. Gatobu Kinoti in the House? If he is in the House, can he give us the statement that he has to make?
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I rise to appraise the House on the Union of Young African Parliamentarians (UYAP). The UYAP was formed as a follow up on the
of the various countries on a need to have an African parliamentary forum that would put its priority on addressing important issues of the African youth on the global landscape. Hon. Deputy Speaker, the UYAP’s first conference was, therefore, convened to establish a forum that would address various challenges facing the African youth such as poverty, unemployment, HIV/AIDS, drug abuse and many others. The conference which was held in Morocco Parliamentary Building in Rabat was attended by 80 per cent of African countries, namely:- Kenya, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Tanzania, Uganda, Somalia, Djibouti, DRC, Cameroon, Nigeria, Togo, Niger, Gambia, Senegal, Mauritania, Tunisia, Benin, Mali, Morocco, Cape Verde, Ivory Coast, Gabon and the Central African Republic. The forum was led by the President of the Inter-Parliamentary Union (IPU) ---
Order! Order, hon. Members! This is a very important statement being given by a young parliamentary and there are many such hon. Members in this Parliament. Therefore, the rest of you who do not belong to that bracket and are disinterested can give chance to those who belong to that bracket to listen.
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. The forum was headed by the President of the IPU under the theme: “Investing in the Youth for the Future of Democracy.” The main issues were:- Drafting the Constitution of the UYAP that captured key issues; including the name of the Union, the theme that was submitted to us by the presidents of the African countries and the location and the headquarters of the Union. Meetings to be convened quarterly and the composition of the leadership council was the other agenda of the forum. Article 260 of the Constitution of Kenya defines youth as persons between the ages of 18 and 35 years. Compared to previous Parliaments, the 11th Parliament has the largest number of hon. Members who qualify to be active members as they are within the stipulated age bracket. The union of UYAP, therefore, gives chance to these young leaders to expand their scope of the representation to regional and international platforms. The last agenda of the forum was the election of leaders that was characterized by heavy lobbying, alliances and other intense democratic processes that culminated into Kenyan representative being elected as the first Executive Council Member of the Union. That is hon. Kinoti. The National Assembly is, therefore, charged with the responsibility of ensuring that this rare opportunity is fully utilized, as guided by you, hon. Deputy Speaker and your office, by encouraging and supporting hon. Members to actively participate in the Union activities and deliberations. This will greatly enhance the quality of its leadership hence ensure the country has additional avenues to participate in the process of Africa as Continent. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
The conference was concluded with a milestone having been made in the setting up of the UYAP which was approved to be headquartered in Morocco. It is my believe that future activities of the Union will endeavor to advance issues of interest to African youths as the forum was adopted by the forum of Speakers in Cameroon a month later.
In addition, this membership will go a long way in enabling Kenyan youth to feature prominently and take advantage of opportunities on furthering the connective development of the country. It will also translate into the advancement of the Kenya Association of Young Parliamentarians, chaired by hon. Sakaja.
I sincerely thank the Chair and the entire Office of the Speaker of the National Assembly and the Clerk, Mr. Justin Bundi, and the entire leadership of Parliament of Kenya for granting me the opportunity to represent Kenya at the UYAP. Having been elected the Executive Council Member of the Unions, I promise to defend the interest of Kenya and especially of its youth in the African regions and the world at large.
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker.
Thank you. I hope you will represent those hon. Members in that bracket very well. I am sure you are up to the task. Hon. A.B. Duale, let us have your statement.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, the Leader of Minority Party is now forming another Kalaus in Ukambani. Hon. Deputy Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 44(2)(a), on behalf of the House Business Committee (HBC), I rise to give the following statement regarding the business appearing before the House the week beginning Tuesday, November, 18th 2014. Hon. Deputy Speaker, I just want to draw the attention of the House to the fact that we have a total of 13 sitting days; including today and Wednesday mornings before we proceed on recess. On this note, the HBC has given priority and consideration to Bills with constitutional deadlines. I would like to thank hon. Members for their participation during the Second Reading of the Public Service (Values and Principles) Bill 2014, which is one of the constitutional Bills. It is our hope that the three remaining unpublished constitutional Bills will be submitted by the Office of the Attorney-General before the end of the week. Hon. Deputy Speaker, on Tuesday next week, of priority is the Motion on the Report of the Committee on Education, Research and Technology, regarding the approval of the nominee for the position of the Chairperson of the Teachers Service Commission, Dr. Lydia M. Nzomo. Hon. Members, kindly note that we are expected to conclude deliberations of this Report by 20th November, 2014 in accordance with Standing Order No.45(4).
Hon. Members at the door, could you, please, allow us to have the Question put before you go for any Committee meetings? We are just about to do that?
Hon. Deputy Speaker, we have also given priority to the 17th and 18th Reports of the Public Investments Committee on the accounts of State The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Corporations. On the same day, next Tuesday, the House will also consider for the Second Reading the Persons Deprived of Liberty Bill, 2014, if not concluded today; the Environmental Management and Co-ordination (Amendment) Bill, 2014 and the Prohibition of Anti-Personnel Mines Bill, 2014. On Wednesday, the House will go into the Committee of the whole House to consider the Alcoholic Drinks Control (Amendment) Bill, 2014; the Physiotherapists Bill, 2013 and the Retirement Benefits (Deputy President and Designated State Officers) Bill, 2013. Regarding the appearance of Cabinet Secretaries before the various Committees, the following Cabinet Secretaries will appear on Tuesday, 18th November, 2014:- 1. Engineer M.S. Kamau, CBS, Cabinet Secretary for Transport and Infrastructure, from 10.00 a.m. to 11.30 a.m. before the Departmental Committee on Transport, Public Works and Housing to answer questions from hon. Joseph Nkaissery, MP; hon. Bernard Shinali, MP; and hon. Dr. Wilberforce Ottichilo, MP, in the National Assembly Chamber. 2. Hon. Charity Ngilu, EGH, Cabinet Secretary for Lands, Housing and Urban Development from 10.00 a.m. to 11.30 a.m. before the Departmental Committee on Lands to answer questions from hon. Jakoyo Midiwo in the Mini Chamber. 3. Mr. James Macharia, Ministry of Health, from 11.30 a.m. to 12.30 p.m. before the Departmental Committee on Environment and Natural Resources to answer questions from hon. Chris Wamalwa, MP and hon. Stephen Mule, MP, in the National Assembly Chamber.
The first meeting is from 10.00 a.m. to 11.30 a.m.
No, it is the Committee that you have cited. Is that not the Committee on Environment and Natural Resources? I thought you have mentioned the Ministry of Health?
Yes, it is the Cabinet Secretary for Health and he is supposed to appear according to the direction from the Clerk’s Office. I think it is supposed to be the Ministry of Health. That is the Ministry that oversights. I beg your indulgence to read it again. 3. Mr. James Macharia, Ministry of Health for Health, from 11.30 a.m. to 12.30 p.m. before the Departmental Committee on Environment and Natural Resources to answer questions from hon. Chris Wamalwa, MP, and hon. Stephen Mule, MP, in the National Assembly Chamber. Finally, the House Business Committee will meet on Tuesday, 18th November, 2014, at the rise of the House to consider business for the rest of the week. I now wish to lay the Statement on the Table of the House.
On a point of order, hon. Deputy Speaker. Article 94 of our Constitution 94(5) says that:- The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
“No person or body
The Leader of Majority Party, maybe you have a comment to make on that.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, first I want to confirm to my good friend, hon. Eng. Gumbo that this is a Government that believes in the rule of law, in both the spirit and the letter of the Constitution. We have demonstrated that, not once or twice. We do it every day from the presidency to the junior public officer in the administration. Coming to the mater he has raised, the President made a comment; a policy statement on the usage of the 14-seater Matatus, if I got him right. He does not need to jump the gun. We will bring the necessary regulation to the House through the NTSA Regulations, which are to be debated on the Floor of the House. So, if you give us time, we believe in the rule of law and we create the road map. We have created the road map. Wait up to the end of the road map and then see whether we believe in the rule of law. The President has never, even in the previous Governments, given roadside declarations.
The Leader of Majority Party has commented. So, let us give him time to bring that regulation. At the moment, there is no regulation or policy on this before Parliament. Hon. Sakuda.
Thank you very much, hon. Deputy Speaker. Listening carefully to the Leader of Majority Party, hon. Charity Ngilu is to appear before our Committee on Tuesday. He has only highlighted one agenda item, namely, the Ministerial Statement that was sought by hon. Midiwo regarding the piece of land in Upper Hill area. It is worth noting that as a Committee, we are also waiting for hon. Ngilu to come and shed more light on the Karen piece of land. It will be good for that to be included in the agenda, so that it is well known to this House that the Committee on Lands is waiting for more information on that piece of land.
Okay, the Leader of Majority Party!
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I agree with the Vice-Chair of the Lands Committee. In fact, it was an oversight. Hon. Charity Ngilu is supposed to appear before The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
the Committee to answer both the matter raised by hon. Midiwo and the further issues she was supposed to clarify on the Karen piece of land. I can confirm and I am on HANSARD that she will be with the Committee for one hour and they can extend it to two hours and ask her those two questions. It is within the powers of the Committee to do so.
Nicolas Gumbo, are you on another matter?
Hon. Deputy Speaker, sometimes I admire the enthusiasm of my former friend; nowadays, I do not know if we are friends or not. Could he confirm then to the nation that before the regulations are brought here, the status quo shall maintain? That is what I asked in terms of what happens in the intervening period.
Before the policy or the regulation are in place?
Hon. Deputy Speaker, there is no status quo on the 14-seater
on the road and the regulations will come to the House. Therefore, there is nothing I am going to confirm to the nation. The phasing out of 14-seater Matatus is not anchored in law as we sit here. So, what am I going to clarify to the country? It is a policy issue which must be anchored in law. So, hold your horses. Those of us who own 14- seater Matatus, we are safe until the regulations come.
Okay. I think we should dispense of that matter and move to the next Order.
Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I want to seek your direction. I had a discussion with the Leader of Majority Party, pertaining to Order No. 9. When we were discussing this Order last time, it was postponed---
Hon. Wakhungu, can you hold your horses please?
Hon. Members, I would like to give a Communication before we move to Order No. 9. Can I do that now without hon. Members walking around? Hon. Members, we are the ones making these rules, so, can we abide by them?
Hon. Members, this is reconsideration of the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill, 2014 in the Committee of the whole House.
May I call the Mover of Section 62 (1). Leader of Majority Party, are you the Mover or the Chair of the Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs? Have you sorted out yourselves?
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, there is nothing to sort out. I am the Mover of this Bill. It is the Chair of the Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs who did the critique.
Well, I am not aware, unless I know who is moving.
I am the Mover and the owner of this Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill, 2014.
Okay, I am well advised.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:- THAT, the proposed subsection 62(1) be amended by deleting the words” with executive responsibility”
Hon. Chepkong’a, are you the Chairperson of the relevant Committee? I think we should hear you on this
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. The Committee did liberate on this objection by His Excellency the President and, indeed, it did table its Report in the House on 23rd October, 2014. This Report is found in the Table Office, Room 8. The Committee deliberated on the rejection by the President of Clause 62 (1) with amendments to remove the word “executive responsibility”. We did concur with the President. In Section 62(1), if you remove the two words it maintains the Act as it was. The only thing that we had introduced in the amendment Bill was, “provided that the case shall be determined within 24 months.” And with that, we totally agreed and concurred with the President on his proposed amendments to Section 62(1).
Thank you, very much. Hon. Member for Kiminini, the Floor is yours.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. It will be critical to have further clarification from the Chair on Justice and Legal Affairs Committee. This is because last time we had a stalemate on this. If we read the Memorandum from His Excellency the President, he mentioned that the words “executive responsibility” be removed because it is tantamount to discrimination. In this case, it applies to elected hon. Members of Parliament. The recommendation was that they go on half pay until the matter has been determined. That confusion was there and hon. Members wanted clarification. This issue; “with executive responsibility” particularly the State officers, for instance, the hon. Members of Parliament who are elected and who are also State officers and public officers--- The moment you remove the element of executive responsibility, hon. Members thought it is touching on the elected leaders. What the Chairman of Justice and Legal Affairs Committee should have done was to clarify further so that they can understand better. Thank you. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
No, not on that. If you look at that legislation, it will be abundantly clear the intention of that statute in regard to the class of people you are talking about; that is number one. Number two, this fear which is well grounded that hon. Members could be part of the target of this legislation should be laid to rest because the Constitution itself has elaborately provided for how Members of Parliament can vacate office. Moreover, to that extent, under legislation you cannot change what the Constitution has provided. Just for clarity sake, both for the nation and for you who is listening, this section does not apply with respect to an office, if the Constitution limits or provides for the grounds upon which a holder of the office may be removed or the circumstances under which the office must be vacated. You know that the offices of elected Members and other constitutional offices have been well provided for. Yes, Member for Mvita.
Thank you hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.
Leader of Majority Party, do you want to have a second bite of the sharing?
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:- THAT, the proposed subsection 62(1A) be deleted.
Member for Balambala, how comes I have his request and he is not in the Chamber? Do we have some ghost Members of Parliament in the Chamber? Alright, Member for Mvita, I see you are on request list again.
Actually, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, the reason why I had put it is because I was hoping that we shall have finalised on that particular question and it was for the upcoming statement.
Alright, just press it when you are requesting. I will still see you. Member for Kiminini, I can see you again.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I rise to support this amendment but my worry is when you read further, the report prepared by Committee of Parliament and adopted by the relevant House, shall be suspended until investigations are complete.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, when you look at this statement, it is going to render the work of Parliamentary Committee useless. We spend a lot of time especially in Public Investments Committee where witnesses come and if such an issue is in place, I The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
am worried that then it is useless. We should not continue doing this investigative work. Thank you.
Just be with me. I am not very clear I understand because the proposal is to delete that section. So, in what way, will the deletion affect what you are trying to say? Well, can he first of all explain his frustration?
When you read the amendment, initially it was: “A state officer or a public officer with executive responsibility who has been adversely mentioned in a report prepared by a committee of a House of Parliament, and adopted by the relevant House, shall be suspended until investigations are complete.” I was looking at it in line with the--- Let us look at the San Marco case. A report has come to this House; we have adopted it and hon. Ottichilo, few minutes ago, requested for a statement from the Leader of Majority Party. I am trying to see what would happen when a Parliamentary Committee has prepared a report, particularly like those prepared by Public Investments Committee (PIC) and these other oversight Committees. It says, if it is prepared by the Committee of the House of Parliament and if adopted by the relevant House, it shall be suspended. That means---
Alright, now I hear you.
So, that is where my concern is.
I hear you.
I hear you but probably the Chair of the Departmental Committee will rise to explain it further. But you want to consider whether the National Assembly should do an executive function of sending home people even on a temporary basis; on the basis of a committee report or whether it is in the domain of the Executive to do it themselves or whether therefore the National Assembly should be an oversight body not necessarily sending people home or giving people jobs. However, before the Leader of Majority captures it, can we hear from the Chair of the Departmental Committee?
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. Maybe you would have to be giving the Chair of the Committee first opportunity so that we can guide the House because this matter was exhaustively discussed by the Committee.
To the extent that the Mover is the Leader of Majority Party, he gets the first bite of the chairing.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, because you are a Member of that Committee but now you are the Chair, we have agreed with the Leader of Majority Party that possibly you give it to me so that we let the Members know what the issues are.
When he says so, I will gladly do that but before he says so--- Alright, go on. Proceed.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. The Committee discussed this matter very exhaustively. In fact, if you look at what we have just adopted, with the removal of “executive responsibility” it is more or less the same. It is a duplication of the first one but more importantly, the work of Parliament is not to investigate. We will be playing an executive function. Investigative work should be left The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
to the Director of Public Prosecution (DPP), Criminal Investigation Department (CID) and the police to investigate matters and recommend a person for prosecution. What Parliament normally does under the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) and Public Investments Committee (PIC) is just to establish whether there is prima facie evidence to suggest that this person is culpable of having committed a certain offence. Then, it recommends to the House to adopt the report so that such a person is investigated further by either the Anti-Corruption Commission, the DPP or the CID. That is an executive function. It is not a function of Parliament.
Alright, then Leader of Majority Party, I am sure that you want to give us the policy behind this.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, number one, if you look at the first Section 62(1) and 62 (1A), it is more or less the same. In fact, it is like duplication. We are talking of the same executive authority. More importantly, when we use the same reason as before, it is discriminatory. Why single out State or public officers with executive authority? However, more fundamentally, the Chair did it very well and we discussed this thing even in the last Parliament. Parliament does not have the tools to do even forensic audit. Parliament recommends to other institutions like the Auditor General, Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission and CID. It cannot give a verdict that your salary will be stopped as a public or State officer for the period you are under investigation. So, I think it is more of duplication. So, with that, I agree with the President in as far as deleting this subsection is concerned.
All right, hon. Members. Having exhausted that, remember also that in order to change the recommendation of His Excellency the President, you require two-thirds of this House seated. So, even as we are intervening and expressing ourselves, we are doing so, so that we can understand further what we are dealing with. It is not necessarily so that we can change it because I do not see the Chamber constituted in such a way that we are able to change the recommendations of the President today.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:- THAT, the proposed subsection 17(3) be deleted. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
This is as proposed in the Memorandum by His Excellency the President. This subsection was bringing the element of a parliamentary approval in the Office of the Chief Executive Officer of the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission. After giving the Secretary the opportunity to be heard in accordance with Subsection 2 and if satisfied that the secretary warrants removal from office, the Commission shall submit a petition to the National Assembly setting out the alleged facts constituting grounds for intended removal. The Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission, in the opinion of the President, is within the provisions of Chapter 15 of the Constitution. Under Article 250 (12), the commissions are empowered to appoint their CEOs through a competitive process. This means that the appointing authority in those commissions can also remove their Secretaries without involving the National Assembly. This is a very tricky situation because under Chapter 15 of the Constitution, it is only the CEO who is appointed with parliamentary approval. However, since this is the veto power of the President, I concur with him. I recommend and agree with him that the proposed Subsection 17(3) be deleted.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I support this particular amendment. It is in order for these institutions to be given a free hand to hire and fire Secretaries and even CEOs if they are not performing. This is very much in order. However, I wish to seek your indulgence in a view that you have just raised; the issue of the veto power of the President with regard to these amendments. The understanding herein is that this House cannot reject entirely the whole recommendation of the President. In other words, we cannot throw this away and retain what we had earlier passed. It is very important that we understand this. This has been an issue of confusion before. Otherwise, what is this Committee of the whole House for now if it cannot recommend and pass this issue? This House needs two-thirds to say that in entirety we do not accept this and the previous one will remain. That understanding is something that requires correction.
Hon. Member for Balambala, you are getting into an area of deep interpretation of the Constitution. However, we have pronounced ourselves several times from the Speaker’s Chair and it would seem that the Constitution is clear to the extent that should you want to disagree with the President in his recommendations, the House would have to be constituted in terms of two-thirds to do that. I am not so sure I understand your area of departure, but the Constitution seems clear to that extent. You will still need two-thirds to disagree with the President. The Leader of Majority Party, let us not take this far. The Constitution seems very clear on this. Can we just go to something else? Member for Kiminini, you have something else to say on this? Member for Balambala, did I cut you short? Did you have something else you wanted to say, which I cut you short from saying?
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, no, I did not have anything to say. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
All right. Let us, first of all, hear from the Chair of the Departmental Committee.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. The Committee again deliberated on the rejection by the President and we looked at Section 17(1), which is very clear. It reads as follows:- “The Commission shall through an open, transparent and competitive recruitment process with the approval of the National Assembly appoint a suitably qualified person to be the secretary to the Commission”. These are operative words.
Are you considering 17(3)?
Yes, 17(3). This is a very important Commission. The reason why Parliament saw it fit to ensure that a CEO, who is appointed to this Commission, is shielded by this House is to ensure that he is protected from persons who might interfere with his work, more so, the commissioners themselves. Parliament, in its wisdom, provided that this is the only Commission in which the CEO is appointed with the approval of the National Assembly. In all the other commissions, CEOs are appointed by the commissioners. The Committee felt, very strongly, that the removal process should also follow the same route which was followed in the appointment. If you remove, as the President is suggesting, the CEO without the sanctions of this House, it will be unfair, un-procedural and it will go against the principles which are contained in Section 17(1). There was a very good reason why Parliament found it fit that we should consider approving the appointment of the CEO. There is also very good reason that we should also approve his or her removal from office. So, we expect that the commissioners will recommend to the National Assembly the removal of the CEO, just like they recommend to the National Assembly the appointment of the same. On this matter, we think that the President did not receive good advice.
The Chair will be heard without interference. Let me tell you from my part as the Chair, I admire your freedom of expression.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, on this one, we completely depart from the President’s rejection of this matter. Even if we do not have the numbers here, we will bring it back as a Committee. We will bring it back as an amendment to that Act because it is an Act of Parliament. The President has no role in terms of the approval of the appointment of this person. If it was the President, we would not have had any problems because there would be some oversight role.
On this particular one, the President has no role in the removal of the Chief Executive Officer; neither does he have any role in the appointment of the Chief Executive Officer. So, Parliament has given itself powers to sanction the approval of the Chief Executive Officer and this should happen. When we say this, we are not saying this because we have something against the President. We have nothing against the The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
President. This is a legal question. What we are saying is that we must oppose this one even if we are few as we are. At least, we are over 50 hon. Members, as I can see. The over 50 hon. Members should say no to this. We should reject it so that it gives us a basis as a Committee to bring it back for amendment. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.
On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.
All right; I hear you. I will not give you a point of order, Leader of Majority Party, but I will allow you to contribute; not quite as a point of order. Just make a contribution.
Okay, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I will contribute but in my contribution, of course, I will pick from where my Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs has stopped. One, what are we dealing with here? We are dealing with the Committee of the whole House. We are also dealing with the Memorandum of the President. The President is exercising his powers under Article 115(1)(b) of the Constitution. There is nowhere the President has no powers. The President has powers in exactly what he has done here by sending back some section of the law before he assents to it. That is provided for in Article 115(1)(b). So I want to tell the Chairman that, that is the first thing. Secondly, the reasons advanced by the President are of constitutional---
Yes, that is where you should go to.
I am heading there. They are constitutional in nature. The President has cited Article 250(12) of the Constitution which falls under the sub-title ‘Commissions and Independent Offices”; Chapter 15 of the Constitution of Kenya, 2010. What is the President saying? The President is saying you cannot do discriminatory work. That is a constitutional provision. Article 250(12) says that all Chief Executive Officers of the following commissions--- I think they are about 15 and two independent offices; that of the Auditor-General and I think the one of the Controller of Budget. They will recruit their Chief Executive Officers competitively and if they violate the commission’s mandate, then the same commission that recruited has the powers to sack them. So, the proposed involvement in this case of the National Assembly in the removal of the Chief Executive Officer of the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC), in the opinion of the President and in citing Article 250(12), says that it is contrary again to another provision of the Constitution. If you read that part, you will find that it violates Article 250(2) of the Constitution with regard to hiring and firing of the Chief Executive Officer.
Okay. Let us not make this a point of debate.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, allow me one minute. On this process we are doing now, Parliament has the obligation. The Constitution has not plucked out anything. If you want to disagree with the President, the matter is about the threshold; the numbers. So anybody who wants to disagree with the President can marshal the two-thirds majority. But from where I sit as the Leader of the Jubilee Coalition, I will not allow Parliament, particularly the Coalition that I represent, to disagree with the law that---
I hear you. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
There are no points of order. It is for you hon. Members to debate, persuade and convince or not convince.
Order! Although the issue boils down to the vote I think the issue that the Chair has raised is the substance of it and it is freedom to say so. So that is okay; I can live with it. Let us not make this a debate. This is the Committee of the whole House. We are just interested in the text of that law.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I want to contribute and say that I want to support the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs. It is only today that he has brought out the legal mind in his body.
Today I have given him a certificate from my side as the attorney of this country. The problem we have in these commissions is that there is no separation between the commissioners and the secretariat. The work that is done by every commission; majority of it or the core issues are handled by the secretariat. Commissioners want to muzzle the secretariat. So, we must give the secretariat mandate to do their work and we must give them some security. Parliament is not obliged to agree with the President, whether the President has sent it back here. That is his opinion and according to his advisors. But as the supreme body of law- making we must come up with a mechanism that is going to make sure that the laws we make here are beneficial to Kenyans. I want to plead with the Leader of Majority Party, who normally never disagrees with the President, to disagree with the President on this one so that we can give the EACC more powers and return back this matter. Let him marshal his troops. Let him send text messages to his troops and they will come now.
Well said but fortunately it is not in his hands. I do not think it is in his hands. Let me have the last one on this just because I have not heard a lady speak.
Thank you very much, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I wish to stand up and agree with the recommendations of His Excellency the President on the issue of hiring and firing; more so the firing of the Secretary of the EACC. What His Excellency the President was trying to do here is just that--- In appointing the Secretary, a recommendation is usually sent here for us to approve. But His Excellency the President wants to remove the politics in it in terms of firing. The Commission, which is a constitutional commission, is actually mandated to hire and fire but at the same time we had made sure that we wanted sobriety in terms of hiring. When it comes to a person who has not met the mandate that they were being appointed for and they have been unable to work, it should be as simple and as easy as possible for the commission to exercise its constitutional mandate. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
I beg to support.
All right. I see you. Just stand up so that we count you.
Count yourselves and tell me how many you are and then you will see that you do not have numbers to go for division.
Resume your seats. The shout was not for the two-thirds of this House. If two-thirds of the House had shouted, I would have heard from here.
I beg to move:- THAT, the proposed subsection 17(4) be deleted. This is according to the proposal by His Excellency the President in his Memorandum to Parliament. The Bill proposes to amend the definition of “legal education provider” in Section 2(1) of the Legal Education Act, 2012 by inserting the following words, which the President is rejecting: “except those granted a charter under Section---”
Are you looking at Section 17(4)? Is that what you have addressed yourself to?
Sorry, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairperson. I got confused. You know two-thirds majority is not gained through a shout as the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs is doing. He did not know that this requires a two-thirds majority. Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, the Bill proposes to amend Section 17 by inserting a new subsection immediately after Section 17(3). The subsection that the President wants deleted says: The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
“The National Assembly shall consider a petition and the Secretary shall stand removed from office.” So, it follows the same path as the one we have just rejected. The main reason the President is advancing this situation is the same reason that was said in relation to subsection 17(3), which we have just dealt with. This provision is inconsistent with Article 250(2) of the Constitution. So, we are just following that. They are now only giving the flesh in terms of how Parliament should handle the removal of the Chief Executive Officer.
All right. Member for Migori.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I think I pressed the wrong button. I am waiting to contribute to the next amendment.
Member for Emurua Dikirr.
All right. Yes, the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I think there is some confusion in this. If it is the removal of the Secretary without the input of Parliament, the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs disagreed with the President. When it comes to the removal of the Secretary, it should be with the approval of the National Assembly as it is with the appointment of the Secretary of the Commission. This Commission is totally different from the other commissions. This is a very important Commission. It does very important work in seeking to prevent or arrest persons who are involved in corrupt activities. So, it is very important that the CEO is protected from manipulation from any quarters.
The Leader of Majority Party, are you still the sponsor of this Bill? Are you still the Mover?
Yes, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I beg to move:- THAT, the definition of the expression “legal education provider” be amended by deleting the word “except” and replacing it with the word “including”. This is according to the recommendation by the President in his Memorandum.
Member for Nakuru Town East.
I support the amendment, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. The threshold in the Constitution is just too high even if we wanted to oppose.
No! Of course we know the Constitution provides the threshold. However, you can say something about the substance so that we understand what you are talking about.
Anyway, thank you very much. Member for Emurua Dikirr.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I seek some clarification on the fact that if we are to oppose, we need two-thirds majority.
That has been said over and over. Hon. Members, do not be frustrated by the Constitution. Speak to what this law talks to the country about. You may decide, as the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs decided on another one, to disagree. It is a debate. If you oppose, you need to have the two-thirds majority. So, you should not be frustrated. You should just say what you think about that legislation. Shall I put the Question? It seems that Members are frustrated by the threshold.
Yes, we are.
All right. Member for Balambala, can I hear something on the substance of this amendment?
Yes, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I support this particular amendment mainly because it will safeguard the integrity of our education. There is a lot of challenges lately whereby dubious institutions appear and offer certificates and credentials to students who, after graduating, only come to realise that what they hold is nothing more than just a piece of paper which is not recognised anywhere and is not going to help them. So, the definition of “legal education provider” as recommended here is appropriate. I support.
All right. The last one on this; the Member for Kiminini, are you sure you want to say something on this?
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.
In one or two minutes, please, because we are pressed for time.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I rise to support this amendment. The Commission for University Education is there to regulate universities. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
By replacing the word “except” and putting the word “including”, it is making it inclusive. That does not mean that once you have a charter you are exempted from this. There is that continuous inspection which this Commission will be doing. So, it should not be “except”. It should be “including” so that it is all inclusive. I support. Thank you.
All right. I hear you. Let us hear the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. The Committee considered the rejection by the President and the proposed amendments and agreed with the President on the following basis: As you know, the Universities Act, 2012 imposes a requirement of every university, including the pre-existing universities, to apply for and obtain a charter from the Commission for University Education (CUE). So if it is left as it was, this will mean that some universities will be excluded from the definition of “legal education providers”. So it was important to provide clarity with regard to that amendment. Thank you.
All right. The Leader of Majority Party, do I hear you on a Motion?
Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move that the Committee doth report to the House its consideration of the Memorandum from His Excellency the President on the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill, National Assembly Bill No. 24 of 2014 and its approval thereof with amendments.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker
Very well, let us have the Mover.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.
( Question proposed)
I will give two to three Members. I will start with hon. Nuh.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. I agree and support the amendments that were proposed by the President except that after some period new amendments must be introduced to these issues that were raised by the President, especially the issue that is touching on secretaries. Under Chapter 15, these commissions are not like any other commissions. There is a reason why they were anchored in the Constitution. It shows that they are superior to other roadside commissions. That issue should be relooked at. Thank you.
Very well. Let us have hon. Chepkong’a.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I support the sentiments of the President in rejecting a number of those amendments that had been introduced in the House earlier except with that which dealt with appointment and dismissal of the Secretary to the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC). As you know, this is a legal question in which the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs expressed itself in very clear way; that this is a matter that should not be left to the whims of the commissioners of the EACC. We are not opposing the President just for the sake of it. We are just saying that it is not good law that this House approves the appointment of the Secretary and is removed by persons who have been approved by this House and who are also supposed to be removed by the approval of this House and usurp the powers of this House. That is usurping powers if you bypass Parliament. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I forgot to ask for the re-committal of that particular part but since it has come back to the full House, it is unfortunate. It just escaped my attention but this matter should have been recommitted to the Committee. Thank you.
I will proceed to give a few more hon. Members in the hope that the circumstances existing in the House will change. The Leader of Majority Party, I want to give chance so that you can sum up. Let us have hon. Gikaria.
. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I want to support the amendments which have been brought by the President. It is just to indicate--- The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Order, hon. Gikaria! I see the Majority Whip and the Minority Whip. If possible you can help us change the circumstances existing in the House. The reason why we will be giving a few more hon. Members is to see if we can make it to the threshold.
. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. This is just to support the amendment. It shows that yes, this Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill, was a huge document. So many laws were in it. It shows that the President takes some time to look at what Parliament has passed and to identify some of these small issues that are unconstitutional and some that do not fall within the rule of the law. Of course, what hon. Chepkong’a has said is true but on the reservations of the EACC, it is important for us to appreciate the input of the President. It is meant for the good of this country. Of course, I remember in that Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill, there are laws that were removed or vacated by the Leader of Majority Party because they had so many issues.
I hope that they will be brought back sooner or later so that we can discuss them. Some of these issues that were vacated or removed yet they were not debated were very vital. Maybe the Leader of Majority Party needs to engage the people who were involved in that to try and bring those amendments. One of them was on Non-Governmental Organizations, which has brought a lot of issues. In Uganda the IGAD community has taken care of the issues to do with NGOs and their participation. Again, we are the only country lagging behind and getting scared. It is high time this country made decisions so that we can move forward without being dragged behind by NGOs and civil society groups. So, it is important for the Leader of Majority Party to start thinking. In the next Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill, let him bring these things. Let us take a bold step and address these issues once and for all. Thank you.
Let us have hon. Member for Kiminini.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I rise to support these amendments as recommended by His Excellency the President. Some of these amendments are basic. For instance, one of them was changing “Minister” to “Cabinet Secretary”. It is obvious in the Constitution that we do not have Ministers now. So, there is no controversy about that. When you move to the issue which was bringing a bit of controversy about the Secretary of the EACC, this Commission is the one that hires. Obviously, it should also have powers to fire. We do not see any controversy about this. But in case of any issues that maybe the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal has, he can bring an amendment. In any case, he had an opportunity to discuss this issue when it appeared before their Committee. So, there is no controversy on that. Lastly, on the issue of the universities, the Commission for University Education Act which changed from Commission for Higher Education (CHE) to Commission for University Education (CUE), even the previous universities which had a charter must adhere to the new recommendations or regulations. So, this is partly for purposes of inclusivity. So, for all these recommendations, we do not see any controversy. I support. Thank you. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Member for Igembe North!
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I rise to support this Communication by the President. At the same time, I feel that when these Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bills are brought to the House, they should be brought Bill by Bill. Like what has been stated by the Chair, Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs, we can end up having very serious amendments sneaked in that are dangerous for the good of the country. For instance, we need to look at the issue of the appointment of the Secretary to the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC).
Order, hon. M’eruaki. Hon. Dennitah Ghati, are you on a point of order?
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I wish to contribute to this.
Thank you very much hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for this opportunity. As much as I support, I have listened to the amendments that have been brought by the President. They are all good. My concern is that there is a lot of witch- hunting even within commissions. I would have supported hon. Chepkong’a if there was a way in which the Justice and Legal Affairs Committee would be involved in terms of hiring and firing. It should not be that they hire the Secretary and when it is time to fire him, that is the only time the National Assembly is involved. I wish to support.
Very well, let us have Member for Emurua Dikirr.
Well, we will now sum it up with the Leader of Majority Party and then put the Question.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I want to thank my colleagues. There is nothing unconstitutional that the President has done. He has used Article 115(1) (b) of the Constitution. The requirement is that if the House disagrees with the President, there is a very clear road map in terms of the numbers. From where I sit, I will always support the opinion of the President and the justification given. For example, on the controversial issue of the CEO of the EACC, the lacuna in the Constitution is that, that Commission is part of the 15 commissions and two independent bodies under Chapter 15 of the Constitution. The framers of the Constitution should have treated the EACC as a very unique body. There is no way the EACC can be treated as the Teachers Service Commission, the Commission on Implementation of the Constitution (CIC) of Mr. Charles Nyachae or the Public Service Commission. This is a very critical body. The Commission and the Secretariat deal with corruption and their security of tenure must always be anchored in law. I want to give two pieces of advice. The first one I want to give to my good friend, hon. Junet, who is going on a very long journey tomorrow to Homa Bay. I wish them well. I wish that the white smoke is seen in Homa Bay. The other advice is to my Chair, that if you want to disagree with the President let us amend Chapter 15 and remove EACC from that. If you do not want to do that, you have another opportunity next year during the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill when you can bring the same amendment. However, between now and then, you need to go and convince the President The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
and his legal team, who are very able, learned and up to the task. If you convince them, then you are home and dry. Thank you, I support.
Hon. Members, now that the House has considered and passed the Memorandum from His Excellency the President without amendments, I will submit the same to the President for assent pursuant to Article 155(3) of the Constitution. Thank you very much.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I beg to move that the Persons Deprived of Liberty Bill, 2014, be now read a Second Time. The rights of persons deprived of liberty is one of the main challenges faced in our country. It is a very complex matter that requires this House to design a legislative framework to design the implementation of medium and long-term public policies as well as adoption of measures necessary to address the situation that gravely affect the fundamental human rights of the inmate population. These are people who are in custody; prison. The Constitution of Kenya, 2010 requires Parliament to enact legislation that provides for humane treatment of persons who are detained, in custody and those imprisoned. It should also ensure that the relevant international human rights instruments are implemented and respected, so that Kenya can be part of the world that respects human rights. The principal object of this Bill is to give effect to Article 29 (f) and Article 51 of the Constitution. So, it is a constitutional Bill that is supposed to be implemented, debated, legislated and assented into law in the fourth year of the Constitution. Article 51 of the Constitution talks about rights of persons detained, held in custody or imprisoned. Article 29 (f), for the avoidance of doubt, is on the sub-title “Freedom and Security of the Person”. Part (f) says that those persons should not be punished in a cruel, inhuman or degrading manner. This piece of legislation, which was one of the Bills that we gave an extension of nine months, gives effect to Article 29 (f) and Article 51 of the Constitution by providing for the rights of persons deprived of liberty. Part I of the Bill relates to the preliminary provisions of the Bill. Part II outlines the rights of persons deprived of liberty. So, it gives their basic rights. It also gives the duties of persons who are in charge of such persons. It gives the rights of those who are in custody and prison. It also gives, in the same Part II, the duties of persons in charge of those persons. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Clause 3 of the Bill reiterates the constitutional entitlements of all the fundamental rights. What does the constitutional give these people? What are their fundamental rights? What are the freedoms of the people who have been deprived of their liberty? Clause 5 of the Bill mandates the human and dignified treatment of every person who has been deprived of liberty. There are specific mandates within this Bill on how they enjoy their human dignified treatment. Clause 9 of the Bill requires that any institution holding arrested persons to maintain a receipt book to detail the property of the person being arrested. I know in the villages and constituencies, Administration Police (AP) and chiefs arrest people and hold them for 24 hours. They then extort money from them, deprive them of their fundamental human rights and torture them. This Bill is saying that there must be an occurrence book and that is fundamental and it is in law. You must record the time you have arrested that person, the reasons and the condition of that person and if he has been denied his rights. The occurrence book is meant to detail the property of the person. A person is arrested while in possession of Kshs.100,000 but when he is released, he is not given that money. It is said that he did not have such money. This happens to many people including in my community. I am sure with the enactment of this law; Pangani Police Station will be a different police station. There are police stations in our country that are notorious for harassing people under their custody. If you are a lady, you lose all your gold chains and everything. You lose your money, wallet and telephone. This law will streamline that. This is part of the reform agenda of the Police Service. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Clause 10 of the Bill deals with restrictions on body search and this is very important. You have seen how the police handle our people. If you are a man, they get hold of your belt and trouser and you are thrown into a Land Rover. It is so sad that at times a male police officer will search a lady who has been deprived of liberty. This Bill, under Clause 10, deals with restrictions on body search. It says what part of the body you can touch and what part of the body you cannot touch. I wish we would do a law for Gor Mahia and all the other football clubs; Sofapaka and AFC Leopards so that you can go and watch football but you have no fundamental right to burn my car, if I am driving along Nyayo Stadium. This clause prohibits unreasonable body searches. It requires that a body search be conducted by a person of the same sex. So, if the person deprived of the liberty is female, she must be searched by a female officer. If he is male then he should be searched by a male officer and not a female officer. There are even situations where male prisoners are searched by female officers. That is not provided for here. Further, this Bill provides for an intrusive search. It should be undertaken in privacy. This is very important. There are some parts of the body that cannot be searched in public. I do not need to expound on that; you know them, the biological frame of the man and woman. So, this Bill is saying that there are some parts of my body, as hon. A.B. Duale, that can be searched in public and other parts that must be searched in private. According to hon. (Ms.) Shaban, those parts are called fundamentals.
They are very important and fundamental organs of the body. Clause 11 provides that aliens deprived of liberty shall be immediately informed of such a fact and their right to consular or diplomatic assistance. This Bill is very good. Even aliens and refugees from Somalia, Ethiopia, Congo and South Sudan; cannot be deprived of their rights. The moment they are arrested, that officer must inform their diplomatic mission in the country or the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR). Clause 13 provides for separate accommodation arrangements for various categories of persons deprived of liberty. It is like this Bill has been designed to reform the prison. If you go to the rural areas, you will find men, women, children, pregnant ladies and ladies with other complications put together in a cell of five by five metres. I am sure hon. Waweru will agree with me that those small police stations in Dagoretti--- This Bill says that the State must build separate cells for women, men, children and people with disabilities. Men and women are to have separate accommodation. Children shall be held or detained separately from adults. Male and female children shall be accommodated in separate facilities. Mothers with children shall be accommodated separately from other prisoners. Intersex people who have been deprived of liberty shall be held separate from other persons. Refugees and asylum seekers shall be accommodated separately. This is a beautiful piece of legislation. This is what the Constitution provides. A Kenyan will not be hosted together with a refugee. A refugee will not be deprived of his rights. Clauses 14 to 20 articulate the rights of the persons deprived of liberty. This includes the right to a nutritional diet. So, the person who is in custody must be given a nutritional diet. He must be given decent beddings instead of sleeping on the floor. You must be given decent clothing; the right to health care and confidentiality. If your wife comes and she wants you to sign some cheques, you must be allowed in a small room so that she tells you what is going on and you sign. Currently, police officers tell the lady to talk to her husband as they listen. That is very rude. It has been shown by a comedy that is aired by Citizen Television called KonaMbaya . Kona Mbaya shows the exact reality in police stations. So, this Bill is saying that, if your next of kin; your wife, husband, brother or lawyer comes to visit you in a police station, you will be given a private room to talk to that person. What happens is that the police will tell you to finish your business. Of course, there are other rights but those are not in the Bill. This Bill also provides for the right to freedom of conscience and religion. You must be allowed to pray. Some of us pray five times a day while some pray only on Sunday. So, if you are arrested in the morning, it is a must that as a Muslim, a Christian, a Hindu or a Jew, you must be allowed to pray. This is a very good Bill. You must be given the right to believe in an opinion. For example, if we arrest hon. Nuh, we must allow him to carry his business of Okoa Kenya, Okoa Magerer there ---
Order, hon. Leader of Majority Party! Is that supposed to be construed as a threat from the hon. Leader of Majority Party? Let us have hon. Nuh. What is your point of order, hon. Nuh?
On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. The Mover of the Motion is none other than the Leader of Majority Party of the Republic of Kenya. He The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
is a man who has a constitutional office and he has just threatened me here with arrest. Now, do I prepare myself for the cell or what do I do? Can he elaborate on that? I am seriously terrified.
I feel you hon. Nuh and the only thing I will put restriction on is that you should not be arrested coming for business. During the rest of the time, I do not think we will have a problem. That is with a light touch. Proceed, Leader of Majority Party.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I am only giving hon. Nuh and myself as an example. If he commits a traffic offence on his way from Parliament this evening and he is put in Kilimani Police Station--- If this law was in place, he would still communicate with his party leader. He would still communicate with the people in Migori. He would still continue the Okoa Magerer, Okoa Kenya initiatives. The same would apply to me if I committed a crime. I would still support the President from where I am and propagate the Jubilee Manifesto. I would do that even from a police station and convert more police officers to join Jubilee. That is all I am saying. So, there is freedom of belief and the right to education; if you are in custody you must be given access to education. You must be given access to information and freedom from forced labour. Part III of the Bill deals with imprisoned or detained persons. Clause 28 empowers the Cabinet Secretary in charge to take measures to ensure that the institutions in which persons deprived of liberty are held implement appropriate rehabilitation programmes. There will be rehabilitation programmes that the Cabinet Secretary will implement. Part IV of the Bill deals with complaint and disciplinary procedures if somebody complains of being denied various rights that I have mentioned. Clause 29 permits any person deprived of liberty to, on their own or through a representative, lodge a complaint either orally or in writing. This is good. Hon. Nuh I am not threatening you but the law can one day catch up with you. Now that you are going on a very serious journey to Homa Bay for soul searching - serious soul searching and prayers - we are with you. The Jubilee Coalition will pray for you. Part V of the Bill provides for the establishment of a consultative committee on persons deprived of liberty, whose function is to deliberate and make recommendations on matters relating to persons--- This is about a committee that will be formed, and which will be a consultative one. Part VI of the Bill is basically the general provisions. Clause 39 empowers the Cabinet Secretary to make regulations. After this law is passed there will be regulations that will come to Parliament on proper administration of this Act. Clause 34 provides for principle of non-derogation from other laws relating to persons deprived of liberty. I have said all that I could say. It is a Thursday afternoon; we are approaching the weekend. This is a very good law. Those who say that we are part of the third generation, the so called Saba Saba generation, my good friends Paul Muite and Rev. Timothy Njoya, my good friend the former Prime Minister and James Orengo--- Some of us may have been jailed but, unfortunately, we were not born. That is the only reason why some of us were not jailed; we have more strong convictions. They should not be accusing us, including the The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
President, Deputy Speaker and I. We were still in our mothers’ wombs, Kindergartens or nursery. I can tell you if we had been born, we would have been more serious guys than those who claim that they fought for space. Today I want to assure everybody that if this law is passed and you are put in custody or jail--- This is a serious reform agenda. With those many remarks, I beg to move and ask---
On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.
Hon. Mwaura, what is it? I notice you are in a black cap today.
On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for the Leader of Majority Party to belittle the contribution of those who fought for the second liberation? He is comparing himself with others who may not have participated in the struggle, yet there is no “strugglenometer” to show whether they would have actually participated? Is he in order? We could as well say that may be he was part of those who were trying to jail the people who were fighting during the clamour for the second liberation.
I did not hear the Leader of Majority Party belittle anybody. In fact, I thought he was actually commending them, and saying that if this law existed, then they would have been handled much better. Of course, he did not say they would not have been arrested but they would have been handled much better. Proceed Leader of Majority Party if you have to answer that one.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, you know you have asked why he is in a black cap today. Little did you know he was part of the men in black at Kasarani. He was the ring leader. So, he has only left the coat and the trouser but the cap is still on. I do not know whether he was also the leader of Okoa Magerer in Orange House, but these are side shows. I beg to move and ask hon. (Dr.) Shaban to second.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I stand to second this Bill; the Persons Deprived of Liberty Bill. This has been long overdue. The past Government of President Kibaki had actually put in place a policy of reforms in prisons and a policy of reforms in the police sector. This Bill goes an extra mile, and will put in place better mechanisms. Since the reforms in prisons, we have seen people sit examinations. We have seen people study and pass examinations. We have seen people getting grade “A” when they are in prisons. We have seen people---
Order! You are not allowed to cross the Floor even if it is just for greetings. Yes, I am talking to you.
Proceed, hon. Shaban.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, we have seen people advance their education even when they are in prison. We have seen people showing their talents when they are in prison. We have seen beauty contests when people are in prison. This is what is required to make sure that all the reforms which were started are going to The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
be a reality, and that any time we have a change of Government, it will be in law and nobody is going to change the reforms which have been put in place. The Leader of Majority Party has gone through it and explained why we need this law and it should have been in place yesterday. We have seen women with children in prison. We have seen women with infants in prisons. We have seen women getting infants. They go there when they are pregnant and they deliver babies when they are in prison, but they are not treated well because of the mix up there. There is congestion in prisons. This law once assented will separate breastfeeding mothers from pregnant women, children, persons with disabilities and older persons. Even refugees are going to be given separate accommodation; men and women are not going to be put together. Grownups are not going to be put together with the children. This is a step in the right direction; we are anchoring all this in the law. But I need to point out one or two things. It requires quite a heavy budgetary allocation. So, it is up to this House to make sure that whatever is in this Bill becomes law. The only way to make sure that this is realised, especially to make sure that people get the right accommodation, meals, mattresses and everything else--- Because it has all been written here, it will require money. This is the only House mandated to make sure that, that becomes a reality in the sense that from the next financial year we should be looking at these areas, more so prisons and make sure that enough money is voted to them. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I do not have much to say except that I wish to see our prisons, correctional centres and remand areas being changed to be in tandem with the current times, and as we see in developed countries. I beg to second.
I will give the first shot to hon. Member for Balambala.
Thank you very much, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to contribute to this very important Bill. This is another of the constitutional Bills that this House is, indeed, required to pass within the time period that we have given ourselves. I am quite glad that yesterday we dispensed with one and we are here again dispensing with this very important Bill; the Persons Deprived of Liberty Bill, 2014. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, indeed, the implementation of this Bill will revolutionise quite a lot; enjoyment of rights by persons who are arrested. The provision of rights to liberty means a person who is put in custody for whatever reason--- Institutions that hold a person have also very clearly under this law been put on notice as to the manner in which they must behave and handle this person. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I will go straight to Clause 3 which is under Part II of this Bill. Institutions are required to do a number of things such as ensuring that they maintain a register which shall be used by law enforcing officials to record a person’s details and all that. I say this because sometimes a person is arrested and the reason for arrest is not given. The register must also show the physical condition of the person as at the time of arrest. It is quite a common thing in Kenya to see a person The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
arrested in very normal condition, and hours later they are found with broken limbs and deformed faces in a cell. These things clearly portray how a person was treated. Under Clause 5 of this Bill, there is something here that talks about the rights to human treatment; the law here is very clear that a person must be treated humanely, taken good care of, must not be mistreated and there is a penalty that has been given here. It says:- “Any person who subjects a person deprived of liberty to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment commits an offence and shall be liable upon conviction to a fine not exceeding two hundred thousand shillings or imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or both.” I have my own misgivings about this particular bit and I think I will move an amendment to this Clause. If you remember, when we were passing the Bill that touched on anti-poaching; namely Wildlife Conservation Management Bill, we provided that a person who mistreats, kills or does anything to an animal will be fined Kshs20 million or jailed for a period of 20 years. However, here we are talking of Kshs200,000 only for a person, probably a police officer, who has been found guilty of mistreating an arrested person. I want to suggest that the fine should not be Kshs200,000 but a minimum of Kshs1 million. I will move an amendment at the appropriate time; the term of imprisonment should not, in my view, be two years but five years or more. Persons who are arrested are also given the right to have legal aid. Unfortunately, legal aid is not very common in Kenya, but in the rest of the world when a person is arrested they are provided with lawyers. In many cases in Kenya, people are not able to afford lawyers. This Bill says that the Government will be obliged to ensure that legal aid is given to those who are arrested. Then there is the issue of following due process of the law. That is, the person who is arrested should be given the right to communicate to their families and other persons whom the person may choose. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, in Clause 7 (h)(g), a person should not be compelled to give a confession. Unfortunately, sometimes you will find the relatives of an arrested person walking around or calling us Members of Parliament and saying their loved ones have been arrested, and they do not know where they are. Sometimes several days pass. We have seen Members of Parliament here presenting Statements requesting the Government to produce persons who have been arrested for many weeks, yet the relatives did not know about it. This law says that immediately a person is arrested, the person should be given the right to communicate to their relatives. The law is also very clear. Even if the fellow arrested does not have a mobile phone or a means to communicate to their people, Article 8 says that the officer, or person, in-charge of the facility that has arrested this particular person must provide means of communication for this person to communicate to their families. Clearly, this law will revolutionise the conditions that many of our people live in. Then there is the issue of body search. Unfortunately, when people are arrested on the streets, and even before they are taken to custody, the police often rough them up in a wrong manner; they search them almost inside out. This is also very clearly controlled in this Bill. I do not want to go into details of this, but I think I do agree with it very much. What it recommends is a humane manner of treating arrested persons. Also, refugees who are often arrested while entering our country, or travelling in our country, are also manhandled many times. Those of us who come from Garissa County, or border areas where these refugees are know this. At times refugees want to The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
come and seek medical attention in Nairobi; sometimes they want to move from bad conditions of a camp. Due to their ignorance of the laws of this country, you find them arrested. I can assure you that the conditions in which they are kept are very inhumane. This law is very clear and says that such persons, or aliens, who are arrested must immediately be given a right to seek diplomatic assistance from embassies. In the case of Somalia whose embassy is, of course, in existence but may not be active, I want to say that agencies that are responsible for refugees like the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) must have an office in the police stations of places like Garissa, Mandera and Wajir. This is to ensure that the moment a refugee, who was walking in the wrong place, is arrested, they are given the necessary attention by the UNCHR. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Clause 13 gives conditions for separation of men from women and hardcore criminals from petty offenders. This law is very clear on that, and I think it is going to give a lot of rights to people who will be arrested for minor offences like a traffic offence, and who end up being thrown into a cell with hardcore criminals. This can make one feel devastated psychologically. This law is very clear that those people should not be put together with hardcore criminals. On the right to nutrition, diet and hygiene, one thing that is common in prisons in our country is that they are unfortunately known to be places of horrible conditions where food, clothing and places to sleep are pathetic. Often as we are informed, people use buckets in their rooms as toilets. This should not be allowed.
The other thing is the right to medical care. It is very important that prisoners are given medical care. From the stories that we hear, many of the prisoners happen to be unwell but do not get medical care. I will bring an amendment to provide that persons who are arrested and are known to have certain medical conditions and under medication should be allowed to immediately access medicine that they use. If somebody is hypertensive or diabetic and they use medicines on a daily basis, as the records are being done, they should also be given the right to state the medication that they use.
There should be no forced labour. Unfortunately, we have commonly seen prisoners being used to sweep the houses of prisons bosses.
Your time is up. We will have Member for Narok North.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. From the outset, this is a very good law. In fact, when you look at the criminal laws in this country, they were meant to punish people rather than rehabilitate them. This is because they were enacted by foreign forces, or powers, who wanted to emasculate and ensure that Africans suffered. So, this is a very good law. It gives effect to the Constitution of Kenya, 2010. In fact, it is a ground-breaking law. When you look at the definition of “inter-sex,” or persons with both male and female organs, it is a new thing that was needed. I remember a case where somebody was a hermaphrodite. This is very important at the moment. This law looks at a human being not necessarily as criminal. Before this Constitution of Kenya, 2010 came into being, you were treated as a criminal once you were arrested. From the outset, your life would be threatened and you would be in danger. You could easily come out either on death throes or as a walking corpse. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
First of all, I would like to talk about Clause 4, which sets out the provisions of the right to privacy. Of course, there must be limitations to these freedoms. They are good, and one does not believe that these rights are absolute. You cannot be allowed to hurt others, or compromise security. However, Clause 5 talks of the right to humane treatment and respect for human dignity of persons deprived of liberty. Although there are those limitations, it is very important that a human being, whether in custody in a prison or a police station, should be treated as a human being. As I said earlier, it does not necessarily mean that because you are in a police cell, you are a criminal. It talks about not mistreating the person or treating him like an animal. This is a very important law that shows that even if you are in prison, you are still a human being and you are entitled to constitutional liberties and rights that every human being is entitled to.
When you look at the issue of property, you find that somebody who is arrested may have money or other valuables, and then they never trace it even at the police station. It is very important that this is documented, so that whenever you are in police custody, or in prison, when you get out, you get all your property. The other good thing about it is that, even if you are in prison, you can always have somebody else pick your valuables with your authority. This is long overdue.
The other important thing is the right to due process of law. Most of the time people do not know their rights. Many Kenyans are illiterate. They do not know that they have a right to a fair hearing, legal representation and even an interpreter. This one clearly makes it mandatory that whenever you are arrested before or during trial, you are entitled to some of these things. It is an important thing that when you are arrested, or when in custody, you are always able to access representation, interpreters and all that. As I said earlier, it is a very important Bill. We also talk about the right to communication to your relatives and the right to inspect receipt books; so, when you leave your items with the authorities, maybe at the police station, you have a right to determine by looking at the records that all your items are safe and available. The Bill also talks about restrictions of searches. Most of the time, people are humiliated. Police officers search suspects in a very inhumane way just to humiliate them and make them feel that they are not human beings. It is important, as set out in this Bill that persons of a certain sex should be searched by a person of the same sex. It is very important that we have set the parameters for searches. I support that particular clause.
There is also the issue of reasonable accommodation, clothing and health care. Most of the times, when healthy persons go to prison or even police custody, when they come out, they do not live for long. This is because they are misreated. Somebody has a medical condition, it is not treated even when it is an illness that requires continuous medication. They are deprived of all this. What is contained in this Bill will ensure that everybody gets their rights, medication and clothing. It is an important step which we should, as a House, take.
On beddings, most of the people get into prison healthy and come out dying because of exposure to elements like cold, dust and pneumonia. This is not a big thing. Some people will say that when you make people too comfortable in prison, they will be running to prison all the time. People will be committing offences to go to prison. It does not matter. The most important thing is that you maintain their dignity and health. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
The other important thing is the right to education. Prisons have become incubators for criminals. When you separate them there is a place for the young children and a place for lactating mothers until the child is four years old; this will ensure that children are not exposed to criminal elements. If you mix criminals with children, definitely, you will create a society of criminals. We are providing that women should be in separate places, lactating mothers in a different place and old people in a different place; this is the right step to take. This House should support it because that will be the best thing to do it. A former Minister - I will not mention the name - was never concerned about what was going on in prisons. When he went there, he started asking for blankets. He could not get anything and he was so shocked that when he came out, he just could not survive. Therefore, every human being should always know that each one of us is a potential victim, and one might get into this. We must make sure, as leaders and legislators, that these conditions are fulfilled. When we talk about providing budget proposals for the implementation of this, we should do it. It should not be a hindrance; we should fight for this. Since other Members want to contribute to this important Bill, I will not take long. However, I would like to say that visiting is also very good. Family members can visit, for example, spouses. This keeps the family connected irrespective of the fact that one of the spouses is in jail. I support.
The establishment of the consultative committee on persons deprived of liberty is also important, more given the fact that they can even complain to the Cabinet Secretary when they are mistreated and somebody can be punished.
Therefore, I support the Bill and request my colleagues to support it.
Let us hear the Member for Igembe Central.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I rise to support the Bill as it deals with human beings. It does not matter in what condition or position one is, one should be allowed to enjoy one’s rights just like any other human being. In this country, when one is arrested on suspicion of having committed an offence, enforcement officers treat that person as if he is no longer a human being. You are a prisoner and, therefore, you can be mishandled and treated in the way they want. When their rights have been breached, some people shy away from reporting to the law enforcement officers because they know that they will get worse treatment than what they had already gone through. We have cases where women are raped, but when they report the offence at police stations they get more shameful treatment than what they went through out there. I do not know whether those people are not trained, or they do not know the human rights of our people. Once you get there, they handle you in the manner they want. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, we have got our correctional centres, which we call prisons. The other day, I read a story which said that some prisons which are supposed to hold 500 inmates are holding between 5,000 and 10,000 inmates. I fail to understand if the people who dump those people there feel that those prisoners are humans. In case of a disease outbreak, it can clear the entire prison population, because The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
the living conditions there are worse than in places where animals live. Given that we have so many offenders, and the prison facilities are not increasing, we should have a law to ensure that petty offenders are not held in prison. They should be given time to go home and report to probation officials, so that we can decongest our correctional centres. I visited a prison in my constituency one day. I was shocked when I saw the food that the prisoners were eating. When the maize flour was put in boiling water, it stayed there for only two minutes and they were told to serve the food. I asked the prison warder who was supervising the cooks: “Are they going to eat this meal?” He replied: “This food is ready for them”. I asked him: “If you were asked to eat that food, would you eat it?” He replied: “I am not a prisoner”. According to the way he answered me, a prisoner is not a human being. As the Leader of Majority Party mentioned, when you are suspected of having committed an offence in this country, you are handled so inhumanly that you find yourself out of place. The enforcement officers behave as if they want to humiliate you, especially if you are a person of integrity, an officer, a Member of Parliament or somebody whose social status is above average. Once a police officer gets hold of you, he tries to “enjoy” you the way a cat “enjoys” a mouse to prove that he is more important. Instead of going by the law, they behave as if they have gotten a kill and take it that it was time to embarrass or humiliate the individual. This law will help in correcting these anomalies. It will assist in addressing the problem of people being deprived of their rights, so that as one waits for his case to be heard, one can be treated like a human being. Even those who have been condemned to death, or are serving long jail terms, they are also human beings, as long as they are alive and kicking. Therefore, their rights should be respected. We have instances where mothers are confined and, unfortunately, they have got little children. Even the children are treated as though they are prisoners. There should be proper areas where to hold such children as their parents serve their prison terms. You find that when prisoners go to dig in the farms, kids are on their backs. As a prisoner does manual work, she is molested. That is inhuman because that other human being did not commit any wrong. Young citizens need the protection of the State to enjoy their rights. The Bill has taken into account the fact that disabled people have a right to dignified treatment despite their weaknesses arising from their disabilities and irrespective of the offences that they may have committed. In Kenya, we say that one is presumed to be innocent until proved guilty. However, if you are arrested, it looks like you are guilty from the moment a police officer gets hold of you. So, enforcement officers should not be taking the law into their hands. They should act as per the law. This Bill is correcting that anomaly. It is putting things right. It is high time we enacted this Bill into law for the purpose of bringing sanity in our correctional centres, and amongst those who deal with people deprived of their liberty for one reason or the other. With those remarks, I beg to support.
I would want to give the Floor to the Member for Saku, but there is a specific request by the person who is second on the line. I am sure that the Member for Saku can indulge hon. Gumbo. He has an emergency. He wants to contribute, and he is second on the line. Let him do it and then you will be next. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I thank you for, kindly, giving me the opportunity to contribute to this Bill, so that I can attend to some personal emergency. The intention of this Bill is very good but, in some sense, as has rightly been indicated by the Deputy Leader of Majority Party, hon. Naomi Shaban, once the Bill becomes law, it will occasion expenditure of huge sums of public funds. I hope that when we make provisions in this House for budgetary allocation, the Government will take the same into account. Even as I support the Bill, I must say that some significant amendments will be necessary, if it is to comply with constitutional intentions. I must also point out that some of the provisions of this Bill appear utopic and, in a sense, are at variance with the contemporary Kenyan scenarios. A major omission in this Bill is the fact that it does not create categories of deprivation. I thought it would be nice to distinguish deprivation before conviction, when one is merely a suspect and deprivation after conviction, when one has been proved to have committed an offence. Maybe, hon. Members recently followed a television series which was talking about some cannibal in Naivasha, who actually cannibalised fellow human beings by squeezing out their blood, eating their flesh and swallowing it with their blood. Due to shoddy investigations by the police, the particular fellow was convicted of a minor offence of unlawful detention of persons despite the fact that he had confessed on television, through interviews, that he enjoyed eating people’s flesh as well as raping and molesting women. With all the rights that we are providing in this Bill, this fellow who has killed innocent Kenyans and traumatised one of the ladies who was being interviewed---In fact, the lady said now she cannot even associate with her friends because everybody has shunned her. Her husband left her, considering her a rape victim. One of the ladies whom this fellow had been “eating” alive, went and became a mental wreck. She cannot fend for herself and yet this fellow is being fattened with public resources at the expense of the innocent people he molested. People like these, who clearly exhibit animalistic tendencies, in my view, do not deserve what this Bill provides; as these are human beings in appearance, but beasts at heart. How do you eat a fellow human being, squeeze the blood from a fellow human being and swallow it with the flesh and say that it was nice and the best thing you have ever eaten in your life? The penalty system does not appear capable of punishing a fellow like this; even after it has been identified that he did not even have a mental problem. That is why I am saying that the intentions of this Bill may be good but, in some ways it appears utopist and clearly it has to make a distinction between the liberties that people are deprived of, before conviction and after conviction.
Look at Clause 5 of the Bill, for example, it says: “A person deprived of liberty shall at all times be treated in a humane manner and with respect for their inherent human dignity.” Looking at the fellow I have just described, what sort of human dignity does he have, anyway, when he can eat fellow human beings and boast about it on camera? What sort of due dignity are we talking about here? We are talking about an animal in form of a human being. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Clause 8 says, “A person deprived of liberty shall have the right to communicate whether by telephone or other means with any person of his or her choice.” Are we converting our prisons into some sort of resort? We must work out Bills that are contemporary with the Kenyan situation.
Clause 12 says, “A person deprived of liberty shall not be confined in crowded conditions.” That is a good provision, but as I said, some of our jails carry about ten times the capacity they were intended for. Unless this House finds courage to give the necessary budgetary provisions to make sure this is achieved, it will just be a column in a long wish list. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Clause 14 says, “A person deprived of liberty shall be entitled to a nutritional diet approved by competent authorities.” These are very ambitious provisions. I hope at some point, we will be able to fulfill them, just as it is with the case of Clause 15, which says, “A person deprived of liberty shall be provided with beddings sufficient to meet the requirements of hygiene and climatic conditions. It is something to think about. As I conclude, I have looked at the provisions where you are talking about competence and disciplinary procedures. Clause 29 says, “Any person deprived of liberty who considers that his or her right under this Act has been denied or violated may lodge a complaint orally or in writing to the administrative officer in charge of the facility in which the person is detained.” If such denials are as a result or a consequence of a directive from the officer himself, why would we not in this clause contemplate, even if it is not an independent constitutional body, creating an independent authority where, like with the formation of IPOA, you can make independent complaints? Among the chains of complaints, you have the Commission on Administrative Justice. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, under Clause 31; on the Consultative Committee on Persons Deprived of Liberty, the Commissioner for Administrative Justice is not among people to form that committee. I think that is an omission and we need to look at it when we come to the Committee Stage. In conclusion, I think we have a major problem in our hands with the prisons of this country. When you have a chat with the people in charge of our prisons, it is a problem we have to address. There are thousands of Kenyans in death row, who had been convicted, but the State has been unable to decide what to do with them. Some have been convicted to hang and have nothing to do since their sentences have been passed, they are sitting in prison and they are now engaged in the form of crimes that we have seen involving Mpesa and issuing threats from prison walls. This country must courageously decide on what to do with them. Lastly, I noticed that this Bill gives a lot of powers to the Cabinet Secretary to make regulations. In some places, it makes the Cabinet Secretary look like a judge. When we come to Third Reading or the Committee Stage, we shall require that such regulations must come here. This is because giving a blanket ticket to the Cabinet Secretary to make regulations of a Bill of this nature, which confers so many rights to people, would be dangerous. It must be subjected to scrutiny of this House. With those remark, as I will be proposing my amendments, I support
Very well, hon. Dido, the Floor is yours. Thank you, for your kind understanding. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Thank you, very much hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. From the outset, I wish to say that I support this Bill because it is good. As hon. Members of the National Assembly, we will have done our cardinal duty of legislating for our people by enacting this Bill. Articles 29(f) and 51 of the Constitution provide for it, but we are giving it the backbone for it to stand the scrutiny of time. Article 19(2) of the Constitution, the fundamental part of this Bill, is in the area of human rights. The purpose of recognizing and protecting human rights and fundamental freedom is to preserve the dignity of the individuals and communities. I come from a community where almost 80 per cent or 70 per cent are not literate. This says a lot because they will not have proper understanding of the Constitution, and also their fundamental rights. In the USA, when an individual is arrested by the police, the police will read to the individual his or her rights and why they are arrested. This is not happening in this country. Through this Bill, the individuals will be told why they are being arrested and what their charges are.
Order! Order! Hon. Millie and hon. Gumbo, you are creating some Kamukuji in the Chamber.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. This Bill goes further to provide what we, as a country, are seeing. It is the gradual development of our law and the maturity of the country. Whereas hon. Gumbo said that maybe we are making prisons cosy, we should appreciate the fact that the individuals who go to prison have not been banished from the society; they will return to the society. There are many provisions that have been inbuilt in this Bill. The hon. Members who spoke before me talked about prisoners being visited every seven days or being visited by their families every three months. On complaints and disciplinary procedures, what used to happen previously is that as soon as individuals go to prison, they lose their voice, humanity and dignity. If there are avenues of expressing themselves to the effect that they remain important individuals to the society, then this Bill has provided that. Whereas this Bill is good, without investing in our correctional facilities through better remuneration of prison warders, seriously funding of the Prison Department and investing in the education of prison warders, this Bill will just be a good piece of legislation without the heart to hang on.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, another area we need to address through this Bill is the anger and frustration in both the police force and the correctional facilities. As we look into the welfare of those who are incarcerated, we must also look into the welfare of the gatekeepers. If we do not look into the welfare and the well-being of the gatekeepers, this legislation may lack the goodwill that is required for it to be properly implemented.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, there are areas like psychiatric treatment in prison, which this Bill talks about. We must move further to say that prisoners who need psychiatric care should not be mixed with common prisoners. By virtue of their condition, they do not fit within that frame.
Another important area of this Bill is the legal aid. Majority of people who are in prisons today lack the services of lawyers to defend them. Even when people commit The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
petty crimes, they find themselves spending long days and long nights in jail. Having legal aid built within the statute, a lot of people who should not be in jail will not be there, because the Government is looking into their welfare.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, one commendable thing even in the current condition within the prisons, is the right to education. Whenever the Kenya Certificate of Primary Education (KCPE) or Kenya Certificate of Secondary Education (KCSE) results are announced, we find that some prisoners have actually done their exams. In itself, that is commendable. Through this Bill, we should provide resources to enable prisoners undertake both craftsmanship and formal education, so that our prisons do not just become dungeons that destroy human beings and their souls. We should empower them to reform individuals who can contribute to the society.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity. I also wish to join my colleagues in supporting the Bill. This Bill is timely. The Bill is part of the Constitution that is geared to take care of human rights whenever you are deprived of liberty or freedom. However, what we are lacking in our prisons and places of custody is management or supervision. There should be independent bodies that should visit our prisons and places of custody such as the police stations where people are being held in remand. Otherwise, having the Bill does not mean much. What has been happening within our custodial places is that most people live with a kind of hopelessness. They feel condemned. It takes too long for them to be taken to courts for hearings and most of them breakdown out of being tortured inside the cells by the wardens. Even the hardcore criminals, those who have been condemned to spend a long time in detention, some leave the prisons having been physically abused or disabled. By the time they come out of prisons or wherever they have been detained, they experience breakdowns, go into depression and most of them die. Even the community does not accommodate them well. I want to thank the former President and the Vice-President, Moody Awori, for bringing a lot of reforms to those places. Of late, I think our prisons are becoming better. But they still need further improvements. The Bill gives the right of accommodation, support of groups such as children and persons with disability, right for nutrition and beddings. All those things will come if there is enough resources and money for the Prisons Service. That is the only time we will be able to achieve that. It is high time that this House comes up with the right budget for prisons and wherever people are detained, especially in police stations. If you go to police stations, the small rooms where people are being kept are so congested. In a place meant to accommodate 10 to 15 people, you will find 40 people. Even those people who are not hardcore criminals and have not committed serious crimes, for example just a traffic offence, are being kept in the same place. At the end of the day, they contract strange diseases. For petty offenders, that should not be the case. What needs to be done for petty offenders so as not to congest our prisons and police remand cells is to look for better options. One way is to help the petty offenders become productive by serving the public and giving better services. The legal representation in this country is too expensive. Those who are free are unable to afford it. The legal services should be affordable. The Government must come up with new systems that will support those criminals and people deprived of liberty. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
That includes legal representation that they can afford so that they are able to be represented. Even if they are petty offenders, they are innocent until they are proven guilty. Another issue is medical care. We have big prisons such as Kamiti Maximum Security Prison. But medical care is wanting. We need to review the budgetary issues. Some people stay in custody or prison for almost 40 years and by the time they are leaving, they do not have anything to use for Matatu fare to get home. When somebody is imprisoned for a long time, we should put them into productive work where they can contribute to the economy. As they are working, they should be informed that they are getting a certain amount of money by using their skills on a daily or monthly basis. They should know what they are earning so that, by the time they are leaving prisons to go back to their homes, they can travel well and join their families. I was watching television recently about somebody who was walking home from Athi River Prison. He had stayed there for about 30 years and the guy was walking from prison. Honestly, as a State guest, that is not right, even if somebody has been condemned and taken to jail. He or she deserves better treatment. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, most of our people who have been deprived of their liberty for a long time cannot integrate well in the community. They have been denied liberties. The community disowns them. Others have their farms taken away. Even their wives get inherited. When they are taken home, they should be given the kind of rehabilitation where they can be part of the community. I think there should be a special programme to accommodate and rehabilitate those people when they get out of prison. With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to contribute. I also rise to support this Bill, which is going to become an Act of Parliament that will give effect to Article 29(f) and 51 of the Constitution. I must say that this is a good day for Kenya because ever since we attained Independence, we have not done much in making sure that the people who are arrested are given a fair trial and hearing. I think if our former Vice-President, hon. Moody Awori, is watching debate in this House today, when the NARC Government took over in 2003, he really tried to reform our prisons and cells. But because there was no legislation, there was nothing else to do other than for the Office of the Vice-President to try and reform our institutions. That is why when you look at it today, it has undergone changes. It is not what it used to be. This Bill gives many rights to persons who have been arrested. We must also follow this as Parliamentarians. This House is the one that allocates funding for various institutions in Government. This is one area that we must make sure that there is enough funding, so that we can make this law a reality. Otherwise, it will just be another Act that has been passed and that will be the end of it. I totally agree that the Government of Kenya has been given a lot of responsibility. Sometimes, when the police arrest people, they put them in very inhumane places. It is not because the police want them to be there; it is because the facilities that are good are not there. I hear some people say that we should separate hardcore from petty offenders. It is good to say that. That is what this law wants us to do. But do we The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
have those facilities to make sure that we can separate? I have visited most of those prisons and the facilities there are wanting.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, first of all, let me explain that to you because, probably, you do not know that I am a Member of the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security and so, I have visited them.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I will also let you know that before I came to this House, I was a Provincial Administrator and so, I have visited many of those prisons. I am just saying that this is a very important law to make sure that an institution holding an arrested person shall maintain a register which shall be used by law enforcement officers to record personal details, physical condition of the person and the reason for arrest. Sometimes, a person is arrested and when you ask the police in the registry why the person has been arrested, they cannot even tell you why. I think this will go a long way to make sure that a person who has been arrested is known. We should also know the number and their physical condition. Sometimes, prisoners die in jail. You go to a prison to see a jailed person and you are told that he or she has died or is missing. The right to privacy, set out in Article 31 of the Constitution, may be limited. I have been very lucky to go around this country. I visited Maralal where our first President was incarcerated. In the visitor’s book, one of the guests wrote:- “This is where our fourth President was conceived.” It is very important to note that during colonialism, the colonial government used to give people privacy. This is very important because we are going back to what the colonialists used to do. They were better. They knew those things. However, for us Africans, if you are jailed for ten or 20 years, your wife cannot be allowed to visit you. So, this law will go a long way in making sure that those who are jailed will be given time to be visited by their families. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, when you look at Clause 5(2), it says:- “Any person who subjects a person deprived of liberty to cruel--”
I want to get that particular bit that would facilitate that. I do not want you to encourage members of the public to imagine that presidents would be conceived in those particular areas.
You know that is a very dangerous statement. Well, move to finalize.
Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I am a student of history. If you go to our history, our fourth President was actually conceived when the first President was in jail and that is in record. It is important that we also look at the fine that an officer can be charged. Clause 5(1) of the Bill says that:- The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
“A person deprived of liberty shall, at all times, be treated in a humane manner and with respect for their inherent human dignity.” I totally agree with that. However, the fine of Kshs200,000 that is put there should be amended to be between Kshs500,000 and Kshs1,000,000 during the Third Reading. This will ensure that people are serious on those particular issues. Subject to Articles 50 and 51 of the Constitution, any person who has been arrested and held in lawful custody in relation to any criminal proceedings is entitled to the due process of the law. We should also follow that because, sometimes, a person is arrested and he or she cannot afford the services of a lawyer. Can we afford to make sure that the Government hires enough lawyers who can represent those who have been arrested? Sometimes, a person is arrested and put in jail and all his property and money is taken away. When that person is released, the police cannot give him back his properties. Those police officers can really be brutal. So, I think we have put there that an institution that is holding an arrested person shall maintain a receipt-book of all the things that, that person had when he or she entered that particular jail. With those very few remarks, I support this Bill. I think we need many amendments because this document looks very good in paper. But is it applicable in Kenya? Thank you.
Hon. Members, I see there are quite a number of Members who want to contribute and since we are beginning to speak the same language, I would urge Members - whoever I am going to give an opportunity - to be to the point and speak only sufficiently to pass their point. I see there are quite a number of Members who have been very patient since 2:30 p.m. and I would not want them to go without speaking to this Motion. I will start with hon. Wakhungu. Kindly, let us observe that particular bit. We do not have to take the ten minutes. If we can afford to have three or four minutes--- Well, it is unfortunate that I am following the list. But I also notice that I need to balance. You will get your opportunity. Hon (Ms.) Odhiambo-Mabona, you had not settled down. But now that you are settled, you are likely to get you opportunity. That applies to hon. (Ms.) Gathecha too. But Let us speak briefly.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this great opportunity to contribute to this very critical legislation which is within the constitutional timeframe. I do not want to engage in repetitions. I want to say something new. This legislation is to bring into effect Article 51 of the Constitution. When you go to Article 51 of the Constitution, it talks about the rights of persons detained, held in custody or imprisoned. More importantly, if you go to Sub-Article 2, it is where it says that a person who is detained or held in custody is entitled to petition for an order of
. “ Habeas corpus” is a Latin phrase and it means a situation where a court petitions. It gives an order whereby a detainee or a person imprisoned appears before the judge to determine whether he or she has been detained lawfully or unlawfully. My contribution is on that. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
In this country, we have had many cases of people being detained without having proper investigations. Research has shown that almost 50 per cent of the people behind bars are there not because they are guilty, but because of poor investigations; this goes to the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) and Criminal Investigation Department (CID). This Parliament has allocated a lot of funds to DPP so that he can hire competent lawyers who can do investigations. When you look at examples of other jurisdictions like England, there is habeas corpus, an Act of Parliament which was put in place in the year 1679 during the reign of King Charles. I have gone through this and, maybe, when it comes to the Committee of the whole House, we need to bring more amendments so that this particular aspect of habeas corpus can be detailed. That is because in this country, many people are suffering. Others have been condemned to hang just because of poor investigations. It is important that once you put this legislation in place, at least, for those people who have been doing poor investigations, their days are numbered. Secondly, I also want to mention briefly about Article 29(f) of the Constitution, which says that a person who has been arrested does not forfeit his fundamental rights. They must be treated well and not punished in a cruel or inhuman manner. It was just last week when hon. Sudi, at Kapseret in Uasin-Gishu, was mishandled by police officers. This is a former Member of Parliament. So, this law is long overdue. It is a warning to the police. They must handle people with dignity. If a Member of Parliament can be handled in the manner that we saw hon. Sudi being handled, what about a common mwanachi ? The Bill is long overdue. When you go to Tanzania, I am told that a policeman will come and tell you:- “ Nakuomba tuambatane tuende katikakituo cha sheria” . But what happens in this country? Beba ! They want to search you all over, even in your private parts which, in my community, are only supposed to be accessed by your better-half. We must bring this law into action. The police must listen. We are not going to allow this to happen anymore. It is a big problem. The hon. Member for Narok, hon. ole Ntutu, mentioned something to the effect that a president was conceived in a prison. I do not know what the implication was. When you look at the rights of prisoners, I do not see anywhere where conjugal rights are allowed. But, maybe, going by the Member’s theory, in future, we can see how conjugal rights can be guaranteed. The former Vice-President, hon. Uncle Moody Awori, brought a lot of reforms in the Prisons Department and yet, we had no law in place. I want to salute him for that. We remember the “Moody Hoppers”. Prisoners were brought to court in those nice couches, which were brought in through the reforms by the former Vice-President, hon. Moody Awori. I want to salute him wherever he is. Prisoners now watch television. One of the critical rights in line with Article 35 of the Constitution is access to information. Prisoners must access information. We must have televisions and newspapers for prisoners. They should access information to know what is going on and which information is being held by the State. Indeed, it is very critical.They must access education. We have seen them performing well in the Kenya Certificate of Primary Examination (KCPE) and in the Kenya Certificate of Secondary Examination (KCSE). A prison is supposed to be a corrective centre. It should not be a centre to harden the criminals such that when they come back to the society, they are incompatible. I The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
know many Members want to contribute to this Bill. I do not want to say much. I want to stop there to give them time but, indeed, this Bill has come at the right time. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I support.
You did very well. I hope the rest of the Members will follow suit. Let us look at the gender. Let me start with hon. (Ms.) Gathecha. She is not ready and so, we proceed to---
No! Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this Bill. It is not only a timely Bill, but one that provides sufficient justice for persons who have been detained or whose liberties have been deprived. I want to, particularly, bring to your attention an issue that took place a few days ago in Kikuyu. One of my constituents went to a police station to pick a P3 Form because she had been raped by a neighbour, only to be raped by a police officer. As a result, her three months child died while she was being raped for five hours. Those kinds of injustices are just intolerable. In this day and age, it is completely unfair that our people - and especially women in this country - continue to face that kind of miscarriage of justice at the hands of people who have been placed in positions of authority and who are supposed to be taking care of them. As I contribute to this Bill, I have been involved in assisting migrant workers who have been detained, especially in Arab countries. Today, a body of another of my constituents has been brought back from Saudi Arabia. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, those women go out to look for work but they are detained in centres where their humanitarian rights are not recognised. I hope that this particular Bill we are discussing today will also apply to, not just our citizens here, but also those migrants, refugees and job-seekers who are being detained. We hope that, with this Bill, they will be assisted within the centres they are being held with respect to their accommodation and the way they are being treated in those centres. Indeed, their human rights that are enshrined in our Constitution will be looked after. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I commend this Bill because it provides an opportunity for women held in detention or those who have been deprived of their liberties to be separated from men, and that is critical. Not only should their confinement quarters be separate, but also the accommodation of girls and boys should be separate from the adults. This protects their inherent dignity and rights so that they are not abused or exposed to situations that they are not accustomed to. The other aspect that this Bill deals with is the fact that, if a child is born in jail, the birth certificate will not state that, that child was born in prison. Article 23 (4) of the Constitution states that, if a child is born of a person deprived of liberty, the fact that the birth took place in a detention facility or prison shall not be entered in the birth certificate. This protects the children and ensures that they do not grow up with the stigma but instead, with the dignity that will be accorded to them once the parent is released. The other part of this Bill that I want to speak to and recommend that it is introduced is the fact that any person who is detained in the execution of lawful sentence is entitled to be visited, at least, once in every 14 days. At least, this maintains contact The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
with their families and ensures that the particular person whose rights have been deprived has contact with their family. This Bill also provides that once a child is arrested or detained, and if they do not have a next of kin, their area chief will be notified. If there are no relatives, the area chief or administration will note where they come from. Should anybody go to claim them at any point in time, there will be record. The record-keeping aspect of this Bill ensures that we maintain the rights and dignity of every single individual. It gives the details of the arrested person including name, age, gender, physical condition, reason for arrest and steps to ensure the person arrested or detained is subjected to due process, and shows that we maintain the rights and dignity of every single individual. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I support.
Let us have the Member for Bomet Central to make his contribution.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity to contribute and support this very timely Bill. This Bill is important in two aspects. One, it is addressing very important issues in prisons, police cells and in psychiatric hospitals. It is also a constitutional Bill which can easily send me home. I do not want to go home before my time lapses. This Bill wants to promote the humane treatment of those who are deprived of liberty. I believe the police should be trained on how to treat human beings humanely. The “men in black” should also be trained so that when they handle the likes of Magerer, they do not mishandle him that badly. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, the only issue which I have concerns with in this Bill is that it tries to create lots of luxuries in prisons. I believe prisons should not be made that luxurious in a way that encourages people to commit crimes in order to be in those places. I know the way life sometimes can be so challenging and some people can be tempted to commit a crime and land in prison if we make it a very relaxed place without many challenges. There are some good things like prisoners being given an opportunity to communicate with their families. The people who have been detained should be given such opportunities. If we move out of this place and get arrested halfway here and we are denied, the chance to communicate with our families are slim. Our families may never know where we are. Those are some of the good things which are in this Bill. The right to communicate with one’s lawyer is very important. On the right to good nutrition, I think it should be a balanced diet, but it may not be the very best. I know people are quite challenged outside there and if we have the best of nutrition, beddings and clothing in prison, so many people will wish to commit offences because they are going to receive the best things which they may not be receiving in their homes. The issue of medical care is really very important. Currently, when you see many people who are outside there being brought to dispensaries, they are being brought while they are already in a desperate situation. The wardens should be proactive and ensure that healthcare is provided at the right time for prisoners. The issue of expenses needs to be addressed because to implement this Bill will cost quite an amount of money. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
There is also that other issue affecting prison warders which needs to be addressed. I come from the trade union movement and those officers are working in an environment that is not conducive. One of the hon. Members who contributed talked about the Naivasha case. If you are working in that prison where that person is at the moment, you will not feel quite comfortable. There is somebody who was eating other human beings and enjoying their blood there and you are in charge of such a facility. That is not a conducive environment. So, there should be certain compensation for those prison warders. They should be paid better to reflect the environment in which they are working in. The idea that those who are imprisoned are going to be given opportunities to further their studies is highly welcome because people are not going to be in those prisons forever. As they are being rehabilitated in those prisons, they should get opportunities to learn so that as they leave, they leave as better people who can even be employed in some places. The issue of visits by the family is highly welcome. I believe what hon. Wakhungu alluded to - the issue of conjugal rights in prisons - should also be factored in, maybe, once or twice in a year. I think that could be okay so that immorality can be removed from our prisons. If it is not provided, other things will come into our prisons. So, to take care of that, we need to provide it, at least, once or twice in a year. That would be in order for me. Because of time, I can see that my colleagues really wish to contribute to this and so, let me conclude there. Thank you very much, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.
Very well. Let us have hon. Millie Odhiambo. I hope you will go by the spirit.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I will try and go with speed. First of all, I want to thank the Leader of Majority Party for bringing this Bill. I want to say, at the outset, that I support it because it is a very progressive Bill. I am speaking as the Chairperson of Parliamentarians for Global Action and the Parliamentarians Caucus on Children. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I have worked most of my life on issues of human rights, especially focusing on women and children. That is why I find this law very progressive. I just want to inform hon. Members who are worried about how progressive this law is and who are concerned that it is giving too many rights, that there can never be too many human rights. It is always better to err on the side of good than to lean too much on the side of wrong. Therefore, I think this is one of the very progressive Bills that have been introduced in this House and even if I bring amendments, I am likely to bring them in terms of addition and not subtraction. I will consider this as a sister Bill to a Bill I brought to this House, which is the Victim Protection Act. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, if you look at the Victim Protection Act, it deals with a lot of the concerns especially those that were spoken to by hon. Gumbo; that you have a person who has done so much wrong and yet, we giving them a lot of rights. I was concerned before that even if you look at the Constitution, it tends to provide a lot of rights for persons who are detained, accused or convicted much more than we protect the rights of victims of crime. Now that we already have a law on victims of crime, I am very happy to support this. I am also happy because it also gives effect not only to our The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
Constitution, but also to a lot of international conventions that Kenya has ratified. Those include the Convention against Torture, International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination against Women and the Convention on the Rights of the Child. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I am very happy because I think I was very concerned about this Jubilee Government that, for a long time, when it came in, perhaps, because of the shadow of the International Criminal Court (ICC) looming very heavily over its head, it looked like it was hell-bent on taking away rights. I am glad that this Bill moves away from that. I know that I have already also brought before this House a Bill that is pending, which is the Child Justice Bill. I know we are still in discussion with the Constitutional Implementation Oversight Committee (CIOC) over that Bill. Whether it comes in the form that I have proposed or in the other form, I notice that under this Bill, there are certain provisions that are very similar. I am very happy especially on issues of children. When children are detained, they should be separated from adults and the girls separated from boys. That also means separation of men from women. One of the things that I noted when I was working in the children’s sector is that, whenever children are detained; whether as children in conflict with the law or children in need of care and protection, what happens sometimes is that their education stops and the Government does not provide for them. That is not provided for under this law. So, I want to request or urge the Committee to consider that. If they do not, then I will probably want to consider that, in future, especially when they come to the Committee of the whole House. For me, the greater challenge in Kenya now is not just the laws. We have a plethora of laws that are dealing with a lot of issues. When we go outside this country, people use Kenya as an example or model country for a whole lot of things, including the salaries of Members of Parliament. One of the things that we are mostly used as an example is our Constitution and the laws that we have built around it. The only challenge for Kenya is that we have not built the culture of constitutionalism which is a culture of obeying the law. I would like to encourage and urge the President that he must build that culture. He must desist from the culture of roadside declarations. I know that he wants to be a public relations President by taking photos and all that but the Bible says that there is a time for everything. He should therefore take his work and role as a President more seriously so that even as he is taking photos, he should limit the photos that he is taking. Finally, I want to encourage the Leader of Majority Party. As he was speaking and even moving the Bill, he mentioned the issue of hon. Magerer. Hon. Magerer was not derived of his liberty even though I strongly condemn that act. That is an act for which I have been branded a mole in my party. I have absolutely no apologies. First, before I am a legislator, I am a Christian. I have said it here. I may do crazy things but my calling, first, is as a Christian. Then I am a human rights lawyer. Those are the first things I adhere to. Because of that, I cannot support any barbaric act of treating people without respect. My party is ODM, which is the Orange Democratic Movement. The “D” is about democracy. Hon. Duale was saying the other day that I have formed a splinter group in The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.
my party. I want to tell him that I am not about to and I will not form one, but I stand for democracy and I speak my mind, whatever the cost or the price. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I have been beaten in the past. I am willing to be beaten in the future, but I will stand by the truth. I support.
Amen! Let us have the Member for Dagoretti South.
Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I promise to be brief. First, I want to support this Bill. A person does not cease to be a human being because he or she has been imprisoned. It is said that if you want to know a nation, you have to go inside its jails. A nation should not be judged by how it treats its highest citizens, but by how it treats its lowest cadre in the society. Kenyan prisons are more of punishment, retribution, disparagement and almost no effort whatsoever is put on rehabilitation. I am impressed by this Bill, first, because it protects the rights of a child. A child who is under four years has nothing to do with the imprisonment of either of the parent. The mother and the child in prison should be accorded all the rights and protection for the child to enjoy similar upbringing and rights like any other child in other environments. I am also impressed by the provision of medication and proper diet for those who are unwell and are imprisoned. That should be safeguarded. I have heard hon. ole Ntutu talking about visitation and trying to allude that we would not be having a fourth President if we did not have a visitation in Kapenguria. I am not sure of that, but it is a very important basic right for a prisoner to be accorded the necessary rights for visitation. Also, in case of persons with disability, it is important for us to have facilities to cater for the disabled. .
Order, hon. Waweru. You will have your eight minutes when debate resumes. Hon. Members, the time being 6.30 p.m., this House stands adjourned until Tuesday, 18th November, 2014, at 2.30 p.m.
The House rose at 6.30 p.m.