Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay on the Table of the House a Report of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs on the Persons Deprived of Liberty Bill, 2014.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I draw your attention to debate in the Senate yesterday, 26th November, 2014 on alleged threats to the life of Senator Hassan Omar. In the debate, Senators alleged that I had made threats to the said senator – a position which is far from the reality. In the debate, the Senator for Kakamega, Dr. Bonny Khalwale, sensationally claimed that, using my account, on the popular and publicly accessible social media platform; Face Book I posted the words “Rest In Peace Senator Wetangula.” As of now, there are four or five fake accounts in the said platform, created under my name by what I believe to be my political detractors to malign my character. After numerous spirited efforts to bring down such fake accounts, I gave up. My efforts have been counter-productive as every now and then, more malicious accounts have come up. My official account is very well known. It is under the user name of Hon. Moses Kuria. However, I have come to learn to live with this harsh reality and such sad state of affairs. I continuously belaboured to remind general public of the existence of such fake accounts. That one I can live with. What I cannot live with is the junior House; the Senate discussing a sitting Member of Parliament without moving a substantive Motion. I would, therefore, like to call upon this superior House to take tough action against the junior House and reprimand them for discussing a Member of Parliament without moving a substantive Motion. Thank you.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Yes, hon. Katoo! The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, as usual, the House Business Committee met on Tuesday, this week, to prioritise the business of the House.

On Tuesday, the House will consider in the Committee of the whole House, the Scrap Metal Bill, 2014; and the Kenya Qualifications Framework Bill, 2014. The Committee has also scheduled for Second Reading, the Prohibition of Anti-Personnel Mines Bill, 2014. The House will also consider two Senate Bills, both of which propose to amend the County Governments Act.

Also prioritised for debate on the same day are Motions on Annual Report to Parliament on the State of National Security by His Excellency President Uhuru Kenyatta – that is if it is not concluded today – and the approval of the increased indebtedness by the National Government. Also scheduled for debate by the House is a number of Committee Reports, including the Seventeenth and Eighteenth Reports of the Public Investments Committee on the accounts of State Corporations and the Report of the Committee on Privileges regarding absence and conduct of Members of the National Assembly.

The House Business Committee has also prioritised for consideration in the Committee of the whole House the Retirement Benefits (Deputy President and Designated State Officers) Bill, 2013 and the Alcoholic Drinks Control (Amendment) Bill, 2014. Regarding Cabinet Secretaries appearing before Committees on Tuesday, 2nd December, 2014, the schedule is as follows:- 1. The Cabinet Secretary for Transport and Infrastructure will appear before the Departmental Committee on Transport, Public Works and Housing at 10.00 a.m. to answer Questions from hon. Joseph Nkaissery, MP; the hon. Bernard Shinyali, MP; and the hon. (Dr.) Wilber Ottichilo, MP; in the National Assembly Chamber. 2. The Cabinet Secretary for Education, Science and Technology will appear before the Departmental Committee on Transport, Public Works and Housing at 11.30 a.m. to answer Questions from hon. Francis Mwangangi, MP; the hon. Cecilia Chelegat Ng’etich, MP; the hon. Isaac Mwaura, MP; the hon. Kenneth Okoth, MP, and a Question by Private Notice from hon. Francis Munyua Waititu, MP; in the National Assembly Chamber. 3. The Cabinet Secretary for Foreign Affairs will appear before the Departmental Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations at 10.00 a.m. to answer Questions from hon. Patrick Mweu Musimba, MP; the hon. Moses Ijendi, MP; the hon. Ms. Sunjeev Kour Birdi, MP; in the County Hall Mini Chamber.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I would like hon. Members to note that we have three sitting days before we proceed for our long recess. In this regard, the House Business Committee has proposed a Morning Sitting on Thursday, 4th December, 2014 to enable the House to conclude prioritised Business. Of course, this proposal will be regularised through the moving of a Procedural Motion in this House. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

The House Business Committee will meet on Tuesday, 2nd December, 2014, at the rise of the House to consider the business of the House for the rest of the week.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I hereby lay the Statement on the Table of the House.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Gumbo, are you on a point of order?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, while I thank hon. ole Metito, there is a matter which has been pending for quite a while. Sometime back, I raised a very sad issue of a Kenyan who was killed by an American diplomat. Following the incident, the diplomat left the country immediately. The late Haji Lukindo left an expectant and unemployed wife with several children. Part of the pleadings pending before this House is if the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations could intercede with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, so that the family of the departed person could be supported. I have been promised many times that the answer would be brought to the House, but it has not yet come.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, as a House, on a matter in which a Kenyan is affected in such a manner, we should not appear to be glossing over the matter. Could the Acting Leader of Majority Party undertake the matter of the late Haji Lukindo, who was killed by an American Diplomat, who fled the country hardly 24 hours after the accident?

Thank you.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, indeed, the matter was raised before the Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations, on which I have the privilege to sit, together with my good friend, hon. Midiwo. For now, all I can say is that, since we have only one Tuesday for Cabinet Secretaries to appear before the Committees of this House before the commencement of our long recess, and given that the relevant Cabinet Secretary already has three Questions to respond to next Tuesday; I will liaise with the relevant offices and see if we can add them a fourth Question. If not possible, I undertake that the Committee will look into the matter before commencement of recess on Thursday, next week.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Gumbo, I understand that the Cabinet Secretary will be coming on Tuesday. So, you can ask for that Question to be substantially answered on Tuesday.

Hon. Members, I would like to acknowledge the presence in the Public Gallery of a group known as “Digital Migration Age Group”, led by a young man called Victor, who is son of one of four colleagues, hon. Gitari.

Let us acknowledge them, please.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Members, what was remaining on this Bill was putting the Question.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 3 of the Bill be amended— (a) in subclause (1) by deleting the word “maybe” appearing immediately after the words “limitation as” and substituting therefor the words “may be”; (b) deleting subclause (2) and replacing with a new subclause (2) as follows— “(2) Nothing in this Act may be construed as limiting the rights and freedoms of persons deprived of liberty otherwise than in accordance with Articles 29(f) and 51 of the Constitution”; and, (c) deleting subclause (3) and replacing with a new subclause (3) as follows— The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

“(3) An institution holding persons detained, in custody or imprisoned shall maintain a register which shall be used by the law enforcement official to record— (a) personal details of the person detained, held in custody or imprisoned, including name, age and address;

(b) the physical condition of the person detained, held in custody or imprisoned; (c) reason for the detention, custody or imprisonment; (d) steps being taken to ensure that the person arrested or detained is subject to the due process of the law; (e) any transfers of the person detained, held in custody or imprisoned to other institutions or facilities; (f) the medical history of the person detained, held in custody or imprisoned.”

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Chepkong’a please, give us the rationale of the amendment.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, some of the amendments are just meant to address typographical errors. For instance, in Clause 3(a), we are seeking to correct the word “maybe” by separating it into two words to read “may be” to give it a proper grammatical sense. With regard to Clause 3(b) (2), we are seeking to remove the words “under any other written law” as contained in the Bill because there can be no “any other written law” once the Constitution has provided on something. There is no limitation to a particular freedom that is to be enjoyed by a person who has been deprived of liberty, except in respect to this law. The other amendment is meant to clarify the personal details of not the person arrested, but of the person detained, held in custody or imprisoned, as shown in the Order Paper under Clause 3(3) (a) and the rest. So, this is to ensure that the wording is correct.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): I see hon. Johana Kipyegon and Grace Kiptui. Hon. Priscilla Nyokabi, proceed.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I just want to support the amendments and to tell the House that this Bill was well drafted. So, a lot of the amendments are merely to put the Bill into shape, correct typographical errors and make sure that the Bill accords with the deprivation of liberty as we want to see it. So, I support the amendment.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I beg to move:- THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 4 and replacing with a new Clause 4 as follows—

Limitation of right to privacy.

4. The right to privacy as set out in Article 31 of the Constitution may be limited in respect of a person deprived of liberty— (a) if the limitation is for the purposes of maintenance and preservation of national security to the extent provided for in the Constitution; (b) if the limitation is for the purposes of security and safety of law enforcement officials and the persons deprived of liberty under their care; (c) where the enjoyment of that right prejudices or is freedoms of others; (d) where there is need for humanitarian assistance of migrants, refugees, asylum or refugees status seekers, stateless and undocumented persons; (e) where there is need for psychiatric treatment of persons with mental or sensory disabilities; or (f) if the limitation of the right is for the purposes of the security and safety of children, elderly persons and persons with disability. What we are seeking to do is to delete Clause 4(d) which is a repetition of Clause 4(b). So, just for good order, we have renumbered and deleted Clause 4(d). Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Anybody?

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 5 of the Bill be amended in subclause 2 by deleting the words “two hundred” appearing immediately after the word “exceeding” and substituting therefor the words “five hundred”. The reason why we are proposing this amendment is that any person convicted of subjecting a person who has been deprived of liberty to cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment should not be fined Kshs.200,000. That is too low. He has committed a serious offence. This is a felony. So, we consider it a serious offence. So, it should not be exceeding Kshs.500,000. As we know, people who have been imprisoned or arrested have been subjected to inhuman conditions. Many a time police officers including prison warders get away with serious crimes. So, we want to retain the sentence as “not exceeding two years” but the fine must not be less than Kshs.500,000. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Again, I see hon. Kipyegon. I do not see him. Hon. Priscilla Nyokabi.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I just want to make the point that in the new system of rehabilitating prisoners, you want to rehabilitate prisoners who are in places of detention. In any rehabilitation, once the person has been deprived of liberty, there would be no reason to continue subjecting them to cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment. The loss of liberty is what they pay for, for the crimes that they have committed. So, the fine that is proposed of Kshs.500,000, for the warders and police officers who continue to treat people in cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment is fine. I support the amendment. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. John Waiganjo.

I also emphasise the need to put the fine at Kshs.500,000 instead of Kshs.200,000. We know that some prisoners have died in prison. The entire Bill is meant to give dignity to people deprived of liberty. So, I support.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Do you want to contribute to this, hon. Peris Tobiko?

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 6 of the Bill be amended by deleting subclause (2); The reason is that this law is being subjected to the application of the Criminal Procedure Code. The Criminal Procedure Code is expected to undergo amendments so that it can be in line with the Constitution. What has been provided in this Bill is very comprehensive. So, we do not require the provisions of the Criminal Procedure Code on matters of arrest. This Bill in itself has gone beyond what is provided in the Criminal Procedure Code. So, this subclause is superfluous. The Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs felt that this should be deleted. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Members who do not want to speak to this, like hon. Peris please do not press the intervention button because it is showing here and I will keep calling you. So, please remove your cards.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 7 of the Bill be amended— (a) by deleting the expression “(1)” appearing immediately after the expression “7.”; (b) by deleting the word “and” appearing immediately before the words “the right to” in paragraph (e); Again, these are purely typographical errors that we are removing under Clause 7(1). There is no 7(2) and so we are proposing that the figure (1) be deleted. Similarly, the word “and” appearing in paragraph (e) should be deleted because it does not make sense and for the paragraph to be grammatically correct. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Okay. That is straightforward.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 8 of the Bill be amended— (a) in subclause (1)— (i) by deleting the words “being detained, held in custody or imprisoned” appearing immediately after the word “upon” in paragraph (a) and substituting therefor the words “the first instance of detention, being held in custody or imprisonment”; (ii) by inserting the words “or movement” immediately after the word “transfer” appearing in paragraph (b); (b) in subclause (2) by deleting the word “liberties” appearing immediately after the words “deprived of” and substituting therefor the word “liberty”; This is to provide that when a person is arrested, their family or a legal representative must be informed. So, we are providing that the person who has been arrested be provided with communication facilities in the first instance. It should not be on a daily basis. Those facilities should be given to an arrested or detained person at the first instance. Once he has made the first call, it should not be on a daily basis to communicate unless they want to do so at their own expense. However, in the first instance, the police must accord that person the right to communicate to their family or a legal representative. So, we are making it very clear that the police must provide the communication facilities. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. To support the amendments proposed by the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs, the presumption of innocence continues to be a running theme in our Constitution. Even at the time of being held by the police for suspicion of committing a crime, you remain innocent until you are proved guilty in a court of law. In that presumption of innocence, it is important that you have a chance to make a telephone call to your relatives or lawyer to come and be part of the case. Remember we are talking about the 24-hour rule. The police should be able to take a detained person to court for the first charge within 24 hours of arrest. So, this clause, in terms of allowing the right to communication, goes in line with fighting incommunicado detention and buttressing the presumption of innocence. I support that amendment. Thank you..

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I support this amendment. I share the view of the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs that communication should be mandatory in the first instance when the person is arrested. That will ensure that the family of the arrested person is aware. Thereafter, the other expenses can be taken care of by the person detained. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I support what the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs has said. In fact, most of the time you find an accused person being arrested and the first thing the police officers do is to take away any communication gadget that he has. So, I totally agree with this amendment. However, it should be on the first instance because if we make it a habit, it may not be good. I am saying this because there was a man who was arrested by the Kenya Wildlife Service (KWS) officers four weeks ago and to date he has not been found. However, that is an issue that we are taking up with the Criminal Investigations Department (CID). I totally support.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. This proposal is very good because sometimes when you get information about people who are arrested, you try to communicate with them but their phones are off. You wonder where they have been taken to. This is going to go a long way in ensuring that at least they can be traced. I am only concerned whether this proposal can be misused because we have seen in the past people in detention using phones to fleece Kenyans, as alleged in the media and other places.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Okay. The last person I am giving a chance is hon. David Kangongo.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I rise to support this amendment. In many cases, we have seen people who have been arrested dying in cells and their families are not informed. This amendment will help. The amendment is also very clear that when someone is arrested, the first thing that the police should do is to provide communication to their families. I want to tell hon. Mwaura that they will not be allowed to have cellphones. The police will provide a means of communication so that they can communicate with their families. I support, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Mover, the Floor is yours.

I beg to move:- The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

THAT, clause 9 of the Bill be amended in subclause (5) by deleting the word “related” appearing immediately after the words “which this section” and substituting therefor the word “relates”; We are proposing that the word “related” be replaced with the word “relates”.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): That is quite straightforward.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I beg to move:- THAT, clause 10 of the Bill be amended in subclause (4) by inserting the words “with due regard to personal safety and health” immediately after the word “sex”; We are proposing that when police or warders are undertaking searches, particularly those of the opposite sex as indicated in the law, the persons who are carrying out those searches must use gloves and not bare hands. Otherwise, they might cause infections to the persons particularly when they touch their private parts as they carry out searches. We want to ensure there is hygiene and decency. You must use gloves and not bare hands because you might infect the person with bacteria that you might possibly be carrying in your hands. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I support this amendment. In the days we live in now there is a possibility of transmission of diseases, especially when we use bare hands. The police could be interrogating and searching many people at any given time. The issue of personal safety is of paramount importance. It should be taken into consideration. The maner in which it is done, as it is envisaged in our Constitution, should be in a humane way instead of being roughed up.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Rotino, the Floor is yours.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I want to support this amendment. These things have happened severally especially in the remote areas. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

When people of the opposite sex are arrested, they are really mistreated by the police. I support this amendment.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Wanyonyi, the Floor is yours

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I have been a victim of this mishandling by these security officers sometimes back. When I am travelling, I have been put through some ridiculous body searches. When you ask them if it can be done in a humane manner, they subject you to a situation that seems to be like “you must obey their orders.” This amendment is very good and I support it.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): We seem to have many hon. Members who want to support this Bill, but unless you have a contrary opinion we can move on. Hon. Kipyegon, why is your name appearing always? Do you want to contribute to this amendment.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. Yes, I want to contribute to this amendment. I also wish to support this amendment. This clause had not included the health and safety of the person arrested or the person deprived of his or her liberty. That is why the inclusion of health and safety of that person is very important in that particular clause.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Kanyua, the Floor is yours.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. As the women of this country, we have really suffered by being subjected to searches by male police officers. Many times it ceases being a search and becomes something else. The law now states that a male police officer will only search male suspects while a female police officer will search female offenders. This is extremely important in protecting the right to dignity for both men and women. As a country, we have to invest in equipment. This old age mechanisms of searching people using bare hands should cease. Bare hands can hardly detect sophisticated crime mechanisms that we want to arrest. As we allow the clause, it is a requirement that the country does invest in mechanization and equipment that can help in these searches. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady

I beg to move:- The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting clause 12 and replacing with a new clause 12 as follows— Right to reasonable accommodation. 12. (1) A person deprived of liberty shall not be confined in crowded conditions. (2) The Cabinet Secretary shall by regulations determine the maximum number of persons deprived of liberty that may be accommodated in any given facility or prison and the minimum space or area of such accommodation. (3) Every Competent Authority shall ensure that— (a) men and women who are deprived of liberty, detained, held in custody or imprisoned are accommodated in separate detention facilities; (b) children deprived of liberty, detained, held in custody or imprisoned are held separate from adults in facilities conduciveto their special needs and age; (c) male and female children are accommodated in separate facilities; (d) mothers with infant children are accommodated in facilities separate from those in which other persons deprived of liberty are held; (e) intersex persons deprived of liberty are held separate from other persons; (f) older members of society deprived of liberty are held in accommodation appropriate to their special needs and age; (g) refugees, asylum seekers or refugee status seekers are held separately from persons charged with or convicted of criminal offences; and (h) persons deprived of liberty on account of a civil debt are held separately from persons charged with or convicted of criminal offences.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. We are merging Clause 12 and Clause 13. We will be proposing deletion of Clause 13 later on. In Clause 12, we are seeking that the Cabinet Secretary under 12(2) should not give notice, but make regulations. Cabinet Secretaries do not communicate by way of notices in the gazette but they should make regulations. We want to make it clear that there should be regulations to determine how many persons deprived of liberty shall be accommodated in any facility. At the moment, a small facility can hold very many people until they are unable to turn in that room. We have been given graphical images of people who are bumper to bumper while sleeping; they cannot turn on their own accord. They have to wait for everybody to turn. We want the Cabinet Secretary by way of regulations to determine that.

Secondly, we are proposing the introduction of Clause 12(3) to require that every competent authority that will include the Commissioner of Prisons and the Cabinet Secretary to ensure that the accommodation that is provided to persons deprived of liberty, persons in prison and persons detained is of such nature that it should separate men and women. It should also separate those ones who have children, depending on their conditions. If they are too sick, they should also be provided with a different accommodation. They should not lump together those who have contagious diseases with those who are well. We have seen people who have Tuberculosis (TB) who are put in the The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

same room with imprisoned or detained persons who are well and they infect them. Treating TB is very difficult in Kenya. We want those facilities that will be provided to deal with such eventualities and that is provided under clause 12(3) as introduced and shown in the Order Paper. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

In supporting this amendment, I want to state that persons deprived of liberty have their rights limited. They are held incommunicado, and so it is very important that when you hold such a person, you give them reasonable and hygienic accommodation. Secondly, we know our jails and the manner in which our people who are in detention thrive. Those jails are full of fleas. We want to separate people who are aged, children, people who are of different sex and people with disabilities. They ought to be held in different cells or places just to enhance their dignity. I support.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady for this opportunity. I want to support the amendment. In this amendment we are taking cognizance of the fact that not everybody who is deprived of liberty is a criminal. We have got refugees, persons with disabilities and children. There are many people who are ordinarily not criminals but who are deprived of liberty because of some other issues. We have had cases where a child is put in the same cell with a hard core criminal. Due to delays in the prosecution and so many other things that happen with our police and the correctional services, somebody goes to the prison and remand and they can stay there for years. Having gone there innocent, one can come out when he is a hard core criminal. Therefore, we are see so many good things in these amendments. The rising cases of intersex that we see these days and the provision showing that people who claim they are intersex can be separated from the ordinary people, is a good move. I support this proposal.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh)

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. In supporting this amendment, we know most of our cells are the dirtiest places in this world. Due to the number of people who are packed in one cell, you find that they are full of bedbugs. It is a pity that most of these prisoners are forced to go and do cleaning elsewhere in other Government facilities, whereas their own facilities are so dirty. You will find that prisoners die from communicable diseases like dysentery and many other diseases. Those are issues to do with hygiene but the Cabinet Secretary will come up with a standard of maintaining cleanliness. Thank you.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh)

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I support this amendment considering that now we are allowing the Cabinet Secretary, by regulation, to determine the number of persons that are supposed to be accommodated within each given space. I think it is a good amendment. I want to just point out that in Machakos Police Station recently or about a year ago, there was a case where individuals had been put in with hardcore criminals and one of them pulled out a gun. This will go a long way in ensuring that people who are held for minor offences like traffic offences, are not subjected to the harsh realities of criminal life. Therefore, so I support.

Hon.Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting clause 13; As a consequence of amendment of Clause 12, Clause 13 therefore becomes superfluous and therefore we are proposing that it be deleted.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, clause 15 of the Bill be amended in subclause (3) by deleting the expression “that the”appearing immediately after the word “ensure” and substituting therefor the words “that the”; That is purely a typographical error. Both words are combined. That is all. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, clause 18 of the Bill be amended by— (a) deleting subclause (4); (b) deleting subclause (5); Subclause (4) is seeking to take away the rights of persons who have been detained in prison and arrested, from pursuing their rights in a court of law. This law is seeking to excuse the actions of either an arresting officer or a prison warder, who has caused harm to a person who has been detained or who has been arrested. The question of culpability cannot be determined by legislation; it can only be determined by a court of law. Therefore, this matter should be left to the courts to determine whether a prison officer or an arresting officer is culpable. It is not for the law to excuse that person and say if that person has mishandled an arrested person. A detained person should not face the court of law; let that person proceed to seek to be excused in a court of law by looking at the circumstances of each case. The other one is subclause (5). The power of making regulations is contained in Clause 30, subclause (4). So, this is superfluous. It need not be there. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Yes, hon. Onesmus Njuki.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I support the amendment because our law enforcers most of the time treat suspects as criminals. That mishandling can be sorted out by this amendment. They are not above the law. I support the amendment that seeks the deletion of subclauses (4) and (5), so that the courts can have the opportunity to try such officers. If they are found culpable, they should face the law, just like any other ordinary mwananchi . Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Let us hear one more person; hon. Kenneth Okoth. Is he not here?

Let us hear hon. Abdikadir.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I support this amendment. The current situation is that most of our law enforcers, especially police officers, arrest somebody who is well but if, as a relative, you visit him hours later, you find him in very bad shape. Apparently, the police sometimes use force to punish a person to get information, something that is not allowed under the law. It is wrong. Any officer who abuses a person who is deprived of liberty should be subjected to the due process of the law, and the courts should be the ones to determine the penalty for that aggression. Thank you.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Yes, hon. Yusuf Chanzu.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. As I support the amendment, I realise that these matters are deeper than they appear. There is the opposite of what mheshimiwa is saying. The reason as to why the police and members of the public behave in the manner they do is that when people are arrested, sometimes they go to court and then they are released. For example, today, following the Motion that was brought here the other day, I received a very painful message. Two girls aged 15 and 17 had been raped in my constituency. When I spoke to the Deputy Officer Commanding Police Division (OCPD), she told me that she suspected that some of the culprits were among those who had been released the previous week. They had been arrested but they were subsequently released. They are now roaming all over the place and committing crimes.

Therefore, this is not just happening in Nairobi. In fact, I wonder what to do. The girls are undergoing treatment at Mbale, but they are in very bad condition. People are getting very agitated that such culprits are taken to police stations but instead of being dealt with in the right way, they are released.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, the idea of discussing Motions for Adjournment without coming to some resolutions should be dropped. We should follow up the matter. We can even amend the Constitution to do away with the situation where suspects go to court and get released on bond. With those remarks, I support the amendment.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

THAT, clause 20 of the Bill be amended by deleting subclause (3).

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, this is because it is inconsistent with Clauses 21 and 22. You cannot legislate for persons who wish to provide voluntary services. If you want to provide voluntary services, it should not be stated in the law. You are providing it willingly. Why should you state it in the law? Thank you.

(Hon.(Ms.) Shebesh): That is straightforward.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting clause 21.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, this clause does not make sense. For instance, in Subclause (1), it states that a person detained in prison, in execution of a lawful sentence, shall not be subjected to afflictive labour – meaning hard labour. We know that there are people who have been convicted, and the judges have prescribed hard labour for them. A law that seeks to negate what is contained in a court order is not a good law.

This clause is not telling the courts not to pass that sentence, but it is telling the prison authorities, who have been required by the courts to implement court orders by ensuring that such prisoners are subjected to hard labour, not to do their work. For instance, a rapist is always sentenced to hard labour. This Clause is saying that although the court may give such sentences, the prison authorities should not implement it because the law allows them to do so. This clause is, therefore, in conflict with court orders – which are always consistent with the law. Thank you.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Yes, hon. Timothy Wanyonyi.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I wanted to contribute to the earlier clause, and not this one.

(Hon.(Ms.) Shebesh): Yes, hon. Abdikadir.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I beg to get more clarification from the Mover. Is there any provision in our laws in which hard labour is prescribed? The Constitution, in terms of protecting the rights of a person, is quite clear: The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

whatever the punishment may be, it should not be with intent to harm a person beyond the bearable ability of a human being. I thought this law would tame the courts, in terms of their old practice of sentencing people to hard labour. The Mover needs to give us a bit of clarity on that aspect. Maybe, this is a good law. Maybe, it is a way of eliminating the element of hard labour. Is it not just a practice of the courts, or is it based on any law? We should consider that aspect. If there was no legal basis for the prescription of hard labour, we should re-consider this amendment. Thank you.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Yes, hon. Robert Mbui.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I support the deletion of this Clause because the Bill seems to be providing for a lot of comfort to detainees. Some of them are guilty of some major offences. The rest of us who are not detained work hard. Many of our youth work hard. Therefore, it is fair that some of these prisoners be subjected to hard work. This is a good idea. Let us delete the clause seeking to give them comfort. I support.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Yes, hon. Onesmus Njuki.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I want to support my good friend, hon. Abdikadir, on the issue of hard labor. This is colonial mentality that a person who was imprisoned had to be given hard labour like a form of punishment. Today, there are other ways that you can rectify the behavior of a person without necessarily having them do hard labour that involves physical strength. In equal strength, we should scrap it and treat it as colonial in this particular case.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): The Mover, do you want to say something because we have had a contrary view?

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. It is good that the Vice-Chair has just walked in. I am using the corrected version of the report because I lost mine. The word “afflictive labour” does not amount to “forced labour”. A court is allowed to sentence someone with hard labour and not with forced labour. The reason why we are saying that this should be deleted, for clarity, is that when there is a lawful sentence, the law cannot take away what has already been provided in a court order. You then have problems in terms of implementing the law and the court order. If the prosecution or the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) wishes to argue that, that sort of order should not be issued, then they should argue it in a court of law. It is not for the law to prevent the execution of a lawful order.

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 23 of the Bill be amended by deleting subclause (1) and replacing with a new subclause (1) as follows— “(1) Where a child is arrested, detained or deprived of liberty in execution of a lawful sentence, the competent authority shall within seven days notify a parent or guardian of the child of such arrest.”; When a child is arrested, we do not want the parents or the guardian to be informed within reasonable time; we want to provide what that reasonable time is. We are proposing that “reasonable time” be deleted and be replaced with “within seven days”. Particularly when it is a child, it is incumbent upon the arresting authorities to inform either the chiefs, assistant chiefs and the District Commissioners to look for the parents or the guardians of those children, so that they are informed that their children have been arrested. It should be done, not within reasonable time, but within seven days.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I want to support this amendment because of the problem of child trafficking. If the parents are not informed in good time, they can easily get worried about their children. I would even have proposed, if it was possible, to reduce the number of days to be less than seven days. The seven days is a whole week, which is quite a long period for a parent not to be knowing where her or his child is. However, I support the amendment.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I also wish to support that amendment. There is need to set a time limit. It is my hope that the competent authority will equally use the fastest mode of communication, so that we can take care of the word “notify” in a proper manner.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I would also like to support this amendment. At times, it may happen and the parents are very worried that the child may have been lost, kidnapped or died because of the insecurity situation. It would have been better if these days were reduced to three because seven days is quite a bit of time and the parents or the guardians of this child may be under distress. I would like to ask the Chair whether this time could even be reduced so that before the seven days, the parents are informed. I support.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. We need to be careful with this amendment because it might actually be inconsistent with Article 49 of the Constitution, under the rights of an arrested person. I want to refer you to Article 49(1)(f), which requires a person to be brought before a court as soon as it is reasonably possible. It further goes to say within 24 hours after being arrested. If a child is arrested and is held for seven days, that would actually be unconstitutional. If a person is arrested, that person needs to be brought before a court of law. I will be very surprised if the The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

parents of a child, especially here where we are talking of a minor, will not have known the whereabouts of the child for all that period of time. We need to be a bit careful with the extent to which this may be inconsistent with the Constitution.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I was listening to the consultations here. I agree with hon. Aden that if a person is not taken to court within 24 hours, it would be inconsistent with the Constitution. However, in this case, we are talking about persons who have been detained, imprisoned, possibly they have already been taken to court and they are in detention or are being held in custody. It is incumbent upon those authorities who are holding those children or that child to inform the guardians, the legal representatives or whoever has been taking care of that child within seven days. It is not that the person is to be detained for seven days; it is the information to be given to the guardian, parent or the legal representative of the child. This is about a child not terrorists.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Do you want to refer to the Constitution?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I am aware. With regard to the Constitution as referred to by hon. Abdikadir, it is about persons who have been arrested. Whether they are children or adults, they must be taken to court within 24 hours. This is just information that the child has been arrested and may be taken to court. The parents are not even aware that such a child has been taken to court or is being held in detention. That information must be communicated. Many times, people are just held and you do not know where they are; whether they are dead or alive. They have been taken to court, dumped in Industrial Area Prison and people are looking for their persons and they do not know whether to find them. This is with regard to persons who have been arrested, charged and have already been taken to court.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, with regard to that Clause, I concur with hon. Abdikadir. The clause is very clear. It talks of “a child arrested”. We have to be specific with the wording. If we start reading things in the way the Chair is saying, then we are introducing something that is not in this clause. So, it must be read with the provision in the Constitution in mind, so that a child is not deprived of the rights that are given under the Constitution. We need to re-look into this clause properly.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, my good friend, hon. Aden is really following this Bill. It is good that we make clear every step so that we move together. I think the Chairman of the Committee is right because here it is not contravening the Constitution which says that you must be taken to court within 24 hours. You have already been taken to court and there is no information; the family does not know where you are as a child. If you read the amendment, it says, ‘when a child is arrested or detained or deprived of liberty’. The key words here are “in execution of a lawful sentence”. So, he is already executing a lawful sentence. Within seven days, at least the family members should be notified where that child is. That does not mean he should spend seven days before being taken to court as required by the Constitution.

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): What is your point of order hon. Aden? The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. The Constitution under Article 49 is very clear. It starts by saying “An arrested person has the right to” and thereafter there are many rights listed. Amongst the listed rights is the right to be before a court of law within 24 hours. The moment we are talking of a child, it makes it more necessary for the parents to know where he is. This is a good amendment, but I think we need to substitute the seven days with 24 hours so that we are in compliance with the Constitution. If it is a legal issue, it is the parents to provide. We will maintain the amendment, but I would like to suggest a further amendment that instead of seven days, we say within 24 hours.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Mover, would you like to respond because I think there are some valid issues coming up.

Yes, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, thank you very much. You know the amendment that we are proposing, we are seeking to bring in a law in accordance with what is required in the Constitution. This is just for purposes of persons being held. All the other considerations must be obeyed as it is contained in the Constitution. It is not for a law enforcement officer to hold the person beyond the 24 hours that is required after arrest. That is not what they are supposed to do. This is just purely for information to the parents, legal representatives and guardians of the fact that a child has been arrested. What we are seeking to do is to define what is reasonable. The policemen can say that they do not know where that child came from; or they arrested that child and were told the parents live in Busia and so they have taken about 30 days, which they consider to be reasonable to search for the parents. We are saying no! Thirty days is unacceptable for something called reasonable which we leave to the determination of police officers. We want to define it in law. Within what period must the guardians or parents be informed? That is what we are seeking, hon. Aden. It is the information; it is not about being taken to court. About being taken to court is regulated in the Constitution.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Mover, are you therefore saying that it would not be prudent to just follow the hours that are given by the Constitution? Sometimes the law is open to interpretation. You can find that interpretation therefore becoming a bog down once you have given two sets of law; the Constitution and one that will be in the Act that we are now debating.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, when it comes to arresting people, I think it is regulated by the Constitution. If you have been detained pursuant to a lawful order, you are in compliance with the Constitution. I suggest that we delete the word “arrested” and we leave

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Are you okay hon. Wetangula and hon. Aden? We are trying to get a middle ground here.

Yes, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I know this Bill is well intended and it is very good. The issue of being detained and the parents not knowing, especially of a child as I had said earlier; it is unlikely that the parents of that child would not have reported in any police station anywhere. Even when it is in Busia and you have the child in Nairobi, the parents in Busia would have gone to a police station in Busia and have recorded a statement that they have a child who is missing. That information is The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

centrally with the police. I want us to be very careful that this particular law, rightfully as you guided us here, will be subject to misinterpretation. If somebody was to arrest a child, I am afraid that they would keep that child for a period longer than the one stipulated in the Constitution, before they present that child to a court of law or before they make the relative of that child know the whereabouts of the child. I think hon. Wetangula is also a lawyer, he will support that one.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. Just looking at the same Constitution, Article 49(c) talks of being able to communicate with an advocate and other persons whose assistance is necessary. If we are going to keep this child who requires assistance from the guardian or the parent for seven days before you can communicate, then I think it will be unconstitutional. I think the middle ground will be we go to the Constitution and accept the 24 hours instead of us deleting ‘arrest’ or ‘detained’. Let us go to 24 hours so that we limit the period. In any case, the child should be able to say where his parents or guardians are and 24 hours is adequate for people to communicate to the relatives.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I think there are two things here that are in contradiction; the Constitution and the right for someone not to be detained for too long. Whereas I can see the difficulty in communicating that information, sometimes Kenya being what it is, some areas are unreachable. In some areas you may not have communication. I do not know whether it is practicable to require that communication be done within 24 hours. I do not know how practicable it is but were it not for the practicability, I would propose 24 hours, but being realistic, I do not know if 24 hours will be workable.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Member, I am going to give you the last say so that we make a decision whichever way.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. We have conceded that when we come to arrests, I note what hon. Aden and hon. Wanyonyi have said. I think we concede removing the word ‘arrest’ because it is well taken care of in the Constitution. But where a child has been detained or deprived of liberty in execution of a lawful order or sentence, then the parents should be informed. What we are assuming is a child who has been to school and the parents of the child are thinking that their child is in school, yet they have been arrested. They are not aware. They have been sentenced and they are serving a custodial sentence. It is only reasonable that the parents must be informed. We are not talking about somebody who has disappeared from home. This is a person who could have been in a boarding school and they have been arrested, sentenced and so the parents must be informed. If we leave it “within such reasonable time”, we do not know what the police will say is reasonable time. But if hon. Aden is comfortable with “reasonable time”, we think to ourselves reasonable time is left to the discretion of the police.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): I think you need to move your amendment with a further amendment.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I propose to move a further amendment as follows:- The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

“(1) Where a child is detained or deprived of liberty in execution of a lawful sentence, the competent authority shall within seven days notify a parent or guardian of the child of such detention or deprivation of liberty.”

24 hours?

48 hours?

Can we agree on 48 hours?

Yes, 48 hours

We concede, 48 hours. Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, let me move the amendment again. I beg to move:- “(1) Where a child is detained or deprived of liberty in execution of a lawful sentence the competent authority shall within 48 hours notify a parent or guardian of the child of such detention or deprivation of liberty.” Thank you.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, clause 24 of the Bill be amended in subclause (1) by deleting the words, “subject to Regulations,” appearing immediately after the word “is” We are proposing that Clause 24 be amended by deleting the words “subject to Regulations” so that the care that is being provided by the mother to a child whom she is with in detention or in prison, should not be subject to regulations but it should be in accordance with the law. A mother deprived of liberty is entitled to take personal care of the child until he attains the age of four years. He should not be subjected to the regulation by the Minister. So, the Minister can decide that such child should be taken away from the mother or something like that. The law should be very clear. Thank you.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I want to support this amendment bearing in mind that in some situations, these regulations have delayed The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

operationalisation of specific clauses in a law. It is important, as the Mover said that the law should be clear on what should be done without saying “subject to Regulations”. I support.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I support this amendment. It is quite in order the way the Chairman has moved it and I support.

I beg to move:- THAT, clause 25 of the Bill be amended in subclause (3) by deleting the words “Cabinet Secretary” appearing immediately after the word “The” and substituting therefore the words “Competent Authorities” The reason why we are stating that is that for people who have already been detained or imprisoned--- You know the Cabinet Secretary just makes policy. It is not for the Cabinet Secretary to ensure that the facilities that are provided in prison meet human standards or meet certain criteria. It is incumbent upon the prison authorities, including the Cabinet Secretary who is also part of the competent authorities, to liaise with the Commissioner of Prisons and Inspector-General of Police to ensure that they provide facilities. We want to hold everybody responsible; the person who is charge of persons who have been arrested, detained or in custody. Thank you.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): That is straightforward.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I rise to support this amendment because when you give the responsibility to the Cabinet Secretary to be the one to determine whether a prison meets the needs and requirements of persons with disabilities, others can abdicate their roles. I think when you say “competent authority”, you are actually encouraging the Cabinet Secretary, the Commissioner of Prisons, prison staff themselves and also, for example, the National Council for Persons with Disabilities which is in charge of giving accessibility guidelines, to ensure that these facilities are conducive. This, if well implemented, will help in terms of ensuring that when persons with disabilities, who are also offenders - sometimes people think that persons with disabilities are not offenders - go to prison their needs are taken care of very well. So I rise to support.

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Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. This is just a very small amendment. I beg to move:-

THAT, clause 26 of the Bill be amended in subclause (4) by deleting the words “an advocate” appearing immediately after the word “between” and substituting therefor the words “a legal counsel”; That expands the persons who can visit those who have been detained. You need not be an advocate. You can be a lawyer working with an organization that deals with persons who have been imprisoned or detained. Thank you.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): That is also straightforward.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 29 of the Bill be amended— (a) in subclause (7) by deleting the words, “whose decision shall be final” appearing immediately after the word “Secretary”; (b) by deleting subclause (9) and replacing with a new subclause (9) as follows— “(9) Any law enforcement officer who willfully obstructs, conceals or fails to act on a complaint lodged by or on behalf of a person deprived of liberty commits an offence and shall, upon conviction, be liable to a The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

fine not exceeding five hundred thousand shillings or a term of imprisonment not exceeding two years, or to both”. The reason we are proposing amendments to Clause 29(7) is because whenever there is a complaint by a person who has been detained, who is being held in custody or in prison, concerning, may be, issues of being mishandled by either the prison warders or by the police, when that complaint is resolved by the Cabinet Secretary, his or her decision should not be final. It should still be appealable. These are administrative actions, which are supervised by the High Court. The law should not provide the decisions of the Cabinet Secretary to be final. It should be subject to be canvassed further if the detained or imprisoned person is dissatisfied with the decision of the Cabinet Secretary. So, we propose that “whose decision shall be final” be deleted.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Mohamed Haji.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. The Chairman has put it ably. One thing that is common is that the Cabinet Secretaries, most of the time will not initiate further investigations or programmes. Most of the time, they rely on communication that is given by the people, who are offenders. So, it is important for us to get other avenues to express and canvass this. That is why I support the amendment. On subclause 9, the fine of Kshs200,000 that has been set for somebody who commits that crime is very minimal. Therefore, Kshs500,000 is appropriate for deterrent purposes. I support.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Aden.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I support this amendment. Not doing it would have made that particular law to be inconsistent with the Constitution. That would have amounted to denying the rights of the person to be heard in a court of law. I agree. The amendment on the fines; Subclause (9), is also good. I had suggested that we would have put it at more than Kshs500,000, but considering that the person being charged is a police officer, whose income might not permit for a fine bigger that this, Kshs500,000 is better than the Kshs200,000, which was earlier proposed. I support.

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 30 of the Bill be amended by deleting Subclause (4); The reason for this is that the power of making regulation is contained in Clause 32 of the Bill.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): That is straightforward.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 31 of the Bill be amended— (a) in Sub-clause (2) by deleting the words “make recommendations on” appearing immediately after the words “on and” and substituting therefor the word “resolve”; (b) in subclause (3)— (i) by inserting the words “who shall be the secretary” immediately after the word “representative” appearing in paragraph (c); (ii) by deleting paragraph (d) and replacing with a new paragraph (d) as follows— “(d) the Director of Medical Services or his or her representative;”; (iii) by deleting paragraph (i) and replacing with a new paragraph (i) as follows— “(i) a representative from the Council of the Law Society of Kenya”; (iv) by deleting paragraph (g) and replacing with a new paragraph (g) as follows— “(g) one person nominated and representing Public Benefit Organizations responsible for matters relating to persons deprived of liberty, appointed by the Cabinet Secretary; and”; (v) by inserting a new paragraph (h) immediately after paragraph (g) as follows— “(h) one representative from the National Council of Persons with Disabilities.” (c) by deleting Sub-clause (4); The reason we are making this proposal is that the persons who have been appointed into this consultative committee as provided by Clause 31 have no secretary. To minimize expenses, instead of employing a secretary, we are proposing that the The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Commissioner of Prisons, his or her representative shall be the secretary to this consultative committee. They will provide secretarial services because the matters that they are dealing with concern prisons. The other one is that we are proposing to delete paragraph (i) and replace it with a new paragraph. In (i), we propose to delete the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) as member of the consultative committee and replace him with a member of the Law Society. In fact, hon. Kajuju has just move closer to me and she used to be the representative of the Committee on Mercy. She was appointed by virtue of her being a member of the Council of the Law Society. So, we thought that a representative of the Council of the Law Society should be part of this. The DPP has already prosecuted that person and has ensured that the person has been jailed. So, to again follow the person all the way to prison is totally unfair. The person who is complaining may not think that they will find any justice. This will amount to double jeopardy; that you prosecute me and then you follow me all the way to prison. So, we thought that he should not be part of this because they are handling complaints.

The other amendment is in (g). We are providing for an amendment that the two persons should be specific. There should be a person representing the Public Benefits Organization and one other person that we are proposing as contained in the amendment, who should come from the National Council for Persons with Disabilities. This will ensure that if there are persons who have been jailed and have disabilities, they will represent women and other categories. We are seeking to make it clear in terms of the persons who will be nominated, where they come from and which organizations.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. This is a very important committee we intend to form. The composition that we have brought on board shows that we are going to have much more in terms of taking care of the interests of persons who have been deprived of liberty. When I served in the LSK, we used to have a committee called the Public Interest Committee. This is a committee that takes care of the interests of various persons, especially those whose liberties have been deprived. By bringing the Council of the LSK representation into the committee, they are going to take care of the interests of such persons if and when they arise. We have also brought on board various other persons for the purposes of public participation. The way this committee is being formed, will remove any conflict of interest that might be brought on board by maybe the DPP sitting in the committee. I, therefore, support.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I also support the amendment, but I would like the Chairman to clarify the matter on (v), where they are saying: “one representative from the National Council of Persons with Disabilities”. I am sure you are aware that we also have other public funded associations which cater for the disabled. How come you picked on this one? For the Public Benefits Organisations, it is general that they must sit and agree on one, but in (v), what happened that you had to pick that one? I need clarification on that. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Mover, you will take note of that as I take a few more. Hon. Aden.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. This is a very good part of the law. I must commend the Mover, hon. Chepkong’a. All the three main amendments proposed here, namely, under (i), (g) and (h) as well will ensure that there is fairness in that particular body. In particular, I want to commend him for including the Public Benefits Organization and people with disabilities. In the past, particularly the people with disabilities were not very much catered for. Hon. Mulu has asked for a clarification, but from what I know, the National Council of Persons with Disabilities is the only public organization that is there. The rest are associations or societies formed by people with disabilities. I support.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I support this amendment. I want to clarify on the issue of representation of the National Council of Persons with Disabilities. Under the Persons with Disabilities Act, the umbrella body for the people with disabilities is the National Council of Persons with Disabilities. Therefore their presence here is a clear representation of---

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Members who are standing on the Floor next to the Bar, you are blocking us from seeing hon. Wetangula.

Therefore their presence here is a clear representation of this sector of the population. I support this amendment and the inclusion of this National Council of Persons with Disabilities is very well captured. I support.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, clause 32 of the Bill be amended in subclause (2) by— (a) inserting the word “be” immediately after the word “may” appearing in paragraph (c); (b) deleting the word “and” appearing immediately after the word “held;” in paragraph (h); (c) inserting the following new paragraphs immediately after paragraph (h)— The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

“(ha) practical and reasonable measures for the enjoyment of the rights to freedom of conscience, religion, belief and opinion by persons deprived of liberty; (hb) the form and manner of vocational training and active employment opportunities available to persons serving a lawful sentence; (hc) the form of prison discipline and manner of disciplinary proceedings to be undertaken with regard to prison offences; and”;

This is the clause that deals with the Cabinet Secretary making regulations. Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, as you know, giving the Cabinet Secretary discretion in terms of what regulations to make has been discouraged.

This particular clause provides the instances in which the Cabinet Secretary can make regulations. What we are proposing are further instances which are contained in Clause (c)(ha), (hb) and (hc). They are on matters of practical and reasonable measures for the enjoyment of the rights to freedoms; the form and manner of vocational training that can be undertaken in prison or the place of confinement, and the form of prison discipline and manner of disciplinary proceedings that can be undertaken by the prison warders when a person is serving a sentence. Therefore, we are just expanding the instances in which the Cabinet Secretary can make regulations. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. This is a very good provision. I am only wondering if we can include the Government giving some seed money to these people when they come out of prison so that they can have something to start their careers with. This is because after being trained, they need some money to start their careers. That will help to make this clause more complete.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Bowen, you have the Floor.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I support and say that it is very important that the people in prison are given an opportunity to go to church or mosque so that they can worship. Again, on the vocational training, we have seen that these are people with skills and expertise. We ask the Government to also give them new tools so that they can improve their skills. When they get out of there, they will become productive people in the community. I support, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Duale, M.D, it is your turn.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I also want to support this amendment because spiritual nourishment is very important for persons deprived of liberty and also in terms of occupational rehabilitation. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Prisoners can come out of prison when they have skills that can earn them a livelihood. I also support the need to give them financial support to start some occupation after prison. Thank you.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, clause 33 of the Bill be amended— (a) in subclause (1) by deleting the words “two hundred” appearing immediately after the word “exceeding” and substituting therefor the words “five hundred”; (b) in subclause (2) by deleting the word “that” appearing immediately after the words “justified on”.

This clause deals with general penalty. That, if you do not comply with what is provided in the Bill or the Act, when it becomes an Act of Parliament, you are guilty of an offence. So, we are seeking to amend this clause to align it with the other clauses on penalties by increasing the fine to be levied upon a person who has been found to be culpable from two hundred to five hundred. The other one is purely a typographical error. It was included in subclause 2. That is all. Thank you.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. M'uthari, you have the Floor.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, this amendment is important because it is meant to deter those people who refuse to comply with the law. Sometimes we make laws and when it comes to the application, people have laxity. However, when we put some penalties where people will feel a bit of pain, then they are likely to comply. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I support.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, clause 2 of the Bill be amended in the definition of “family member” by inserting the words “or legal guardian” immediately after the word “parent”;

The term “family member” should also include “legal guardian.” That was not included. We have parents, sisters and all the rest but a legal guardian has not been provided. You necessarily may not have any relationship with the child, but you are a legal guardian of that child. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

Hon.Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move that the Committee doth report to the House its consideration of the Persons Deprived of Liberty Bill and its approval thereof with amendments.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered the Persons Deprived of Liberty Bill, National Bill, No.30 of 2014, and approved the same with amendments.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said report.

seconded.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that the Persons Deprived of Liberty Bill, National Bill, No.30 of 2014, be now read the Third Time.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): I will take contribution from two or three hon. members. Hon. Members, we are on Third Reading.

Thank you, Temporary Deputy Speaker. I wanted to say from the outset that this is a great achievement because this is one of the constitutional Bills that this House was supposed to have passed. I am glad that this day we have managed to accomplish this. I think there are a lot of good things in this particular Bill. I believe that it is a Bill that will transform the manner in which persons who are detained are treated and their rights protected. It is a Bill that will revolutionize the way in which persons arrested or in custody are catered for up to and including the way they are kept in there. The standards proposed in this Bill, indeed, will meet the world’s standards in terms of ensuring that those in custody are kept under conditions that are humane and treated in a manner that upholds their individual dignity.

I support.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Hon. (Ms.) Tobiko are you ready?

No!

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Hon. Members, when you are putting a request, we are on the Third Reading, so just a few comments. Is hon. Githinji here?

No!

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Hon. Members, if you are not in withdraw your card because what we are having here are requests. Let me go to hon. (Dr.) Pukose now that I cannot see hon. Githinji.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. On the outset, I want to thank the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs for work well done. They have demonstrated that they are up to the task and this Bill actually, as my colleague has put, is one of those constitutional Bills that this Eleventh Parliament was supposed to pass and we have done our part. It is now up to the Executive to make sure The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

that this Bill is implemented: That this Bill gives those who are in the correctional facilities humane conditions. It should give them an opportunity to be corrected well under internationally accepted standards. It also provides that when children are arrested, because more often you find that a child has been arrested and taken to a distant place and the guardian or the parent is not informed, communication is done. So, this Bill mandates that the authorities must inform the relatives, guardians or the parents about the child who has been arrested. I think this is a very good thing.

I want to also thank hon. Members because we have stayed until this time. I think it is commendable that we are able to make sure that is done and it is done properly.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I want to first of all to thank the Chairman. Our Chairman has never disappointed us because he has always done a good job bringing in the legal mind. I think looking at this Bill, we have really fine-tuned it because during the Second Reading, most of us had issues but, indeed, when I look at the amendments that he has moved - and the whole Committee - they have done a very good job. This is also one of the milestones because this is one of the constitutional Bills that we are required to pass before we go for our recess. Therefore, this is a very good Bill for this country. For a long time those who have been jailed, those people who have been arrested, have been abused by the various Government apparatus-- - I think with this Bill now it will go a long way in making sure that the people who are arrested are also taken care of.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Thank you, hon. Wetangula, just a few comments.

Thank you, Temporary Deputy Speaker. From the outset, this is a very good piece of legislation that we have put in. I also want to thank the Committee for the work well done. This is a forward looking piece of legislation to give dignity to the people who are deprived of their liberty. When you are arrested, detained or imprisoned, it does not mean you cease to be a human being. This Bill is just ensuring that all people, whether you are in prison or you are free, still have their dignity. This Bill is going a long way to give respect to human rights. Sometimes people, especially people with disability, when they are detained, they are denied access to medical facilities but this Bill has taken care of that. It is provided in this Bill that they must be treated in a humane way. This is therefore a very important way forward. This Bill has taken care of virtually almost every person including children, women and people with disability. I think we must congratulate the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs for the work well done and even the hon. Members who sat in through to make sure that this Bill has gone through. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Thank you. Hon. Mohamed Haji, Member for Banissa.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I want to congratulate the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs to which I belong and its Chairman for doing a commendable job. It is true that this is a constitutional provision that we are supposed to meet by passing this law and we have done very well. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Our criminal justice system is not a perfect one up to now. We know there are many people who are serving long sentences behind bars not because they are criminals but because of some errors in the justice system. Therefore, as much as we want to give dignity to these people, we know that we cannot do much about the fate of people who have been wrongly imprisoned and put behind bars. What we can do for them now that our system is not perfect is to give them dignity and a human face in the conditions of the places they are in. Two is about people who are serving sentences. When you go to places like the Industrial Area Remand Centre today to visit a friend, relative or constituent, you will see that the situation there is pathetic because of overcrowding. What this Bill seeks to do is to decongest such places, give room and so many other things. The other thing is about religious practice. Some people will serve their lives in prison. For example, if they profess the Muslim faith, they will be expected to practise their religion in that place. Due to the conditions we are in today, they will not be able to attain that. However, with the passing of this Bill those requirements will become a reality. What I want to finally say and tell the House is that the passage of this Bill means that we need to vote more money to these correctional centres so that all these good things we see here can be a reality. As we speak today, if more money is not put into those correctional centres then this will just be paper work. So, I support.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Hon. Members, of course we are just making comments because this is the Third Reading. I want to give chance to two or three more Members. Hon. Pukose, you talked and cannot talk twice. Hon. Member for Laikipia East. Hon. Kajuju, I cannot even see you on the screen neither are you the Member for Laikipia East.

It is hon. Kimaru.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): You can never be hon. Kimaru I want to assure you of that.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I have had some personal challenges and that is why I do not have my card.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Hon. Kajuju, now that you are still at my discretion, I can allow you to contribute otherwise you cannot use Kimaru’s chance because your people and county will refuse you and you will not be representing them. Anyway, hon. Kajuju you can make your contribution.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for understanding. I sit in the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs and I dare say that we have had challenges when we have been trying to look at various other Bills. However, I must commend the drafters of this Bill because it is one of the Bills that we found easy to go through and appreciate. This is because it was written in proper constitutional and legal language, unlike the other Bills that we are still looking at. As I served in various other capacities before I came to this Parliament, we used to visit prisons like Kamiti, King’ong’o among others. We would find that the moment you get incarcerated, you have no rights as a human being. This Bill is going to ensure, as The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

a matter of law, that any person who has been incarcerated gets the rights that he or she enjoys when outside of course subject to the limitations that are there. This is also going to ensure that the Government expands prisons. Most of the prisons that we have were built in the colonial years and are limited in terms of space. In Clause 12 of this Bill, it is going to ensure that prisons are able to create more space by construction of other institutions to ensure that persons who have been deprived of liberty enjoy their freedom. I, therefore, commend the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs and our Chairman for taking us through this Bill and ensuring that we bring a clean Bill before this House. I, therefore, support.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Hon. Members, let me give out the last chance. Hon. Member for Nyaribari Chache, hon. Tongi, do you want to contribute on this?

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. It is a very beautiful Bill which addresses most of the challenges that our people are getting when they are in custody. It addresses about 70 per cent of the challenges and we have a 30 per cent which we will have to address as we move along. In my mind, I have cases in regions like Kisii and other places where when you have been sentenced and have been released to go back home, people do not appreciate you as much. I am thinking that this Bill will go a long way in addressing some of those concerns by way of providing some resources to the people who have been jailed. This is because those who are jailed will get some trainings and skills. Thereafter, they will be able to put those skills into use. Two and going forward, I will also suggest that we need to get ways of ensuring that people in jail are visited as much as possible and not just once in a while. It is something given and provided for but I know it is a tall order because systems will have to be put in place. I am sure we will be able to address it as we move along. I must also commend the drafters of this Bill because they did a wonderful job. They addressed most of the concerns which have been in the public domain. Kenya is one of the countries of the world and we must therefore be measured by international standards. We cannot allow anything less than what the international standards are giving. In other parts of the world and if you are unlucky to end up in jail and you want to study or do anything that will improve your skills, you will be given the facility and opportunity. I think Kenya should be able to give the same opportunity to people who are in jail so that when they finally come out, they are better people to the society and are able to add value and not just to be seen as criminals who are unable to change their ways which landed them in jail. I support it and thank you hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for the opportunity to appreciate the work well done.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Let us have the last word to sum it up from hon. Katoo ole Metito in the capacity of the Whip of the Majority Party.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I only have three comments to make. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

First of all, I want to thank hon. Members for the attention they have given to this Bill and the way it has been concluded; in a consensus way. I want to say that this Bill has brought light into rehabilitation programmes that are now going to be in our correctional areas. Two, it has clarified and simplified the complaints and disciplinary procedures that should be followed by people who have been deprived of liberty and their relatives. Finally, it will instill discipline in prisons once it becomes law. I think it is also making it clear that even those deprived of liberty are not deprived of their human rights. It is, therefore, a good Bill and I support it. Thank you.

Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Thank you. Hon. Members, we are not in a position to put the Question. I, therefore, direct that the Question will be put in the next sitting at the most appropriate time. Next Order.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Hon. Members, hon. George Omondi had a balance of three minutes. I, therefore, give him the Floor. If he is not in the House, his right is forfeited. Is hon. George Omondi in the House? Then his right is forfeited as per our Standing Orders. The next is hon. Peris Tobiko. For your direction, hon. Members, we are on the Motion No.10 in the Order Paper, which is on noting of the Annual Report to Parliament on the state of the national security.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. As you have seen, today I really did my timing to be able to contribute to this Motion. I am joining the rest of my colleagues who had already noted the Report to Parliament on the state of national security as submitted by His Excellency the President, in April this year. As you know, at the moment we have a lot of challenges in terms of security in this country. I could not wait to get time to contribute to this debate because of what we are going through in this country. A lot has happened this year. In the short while that the Jubilee Government has been in power, we have faced a lot of challenges. My The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

contribution is that, we, in the Jubilee Government, must not bury our heads in the sand when things are going wrong. The security of this country is under threat. We have had killings in Kapedo, Baringo, Mandera, at the Westgate and Mpeketoni. These are many Kenyan lives that have been lost. This needs to be addressed by our security enforcers. Those who are responsible and those who have been allocated resources in this country to address security in this country should do their job. As mentioned yesterday, this year the security docket received a very big allocation of Kshs70 billion. So, those who are talking of underfunding in the security docket are not being honest to the country. We have allocated money to the security docket and we want to see this money working for Kenyans. It is unfortunate that of late, we have seen women being stripped and babies being raped. Yesterday, I was disappointed to hear the Leader of Majority Party asking where the mother of the three year old baby who was raped was. I want to go on record to tell hon. A.B. Duale that the mother of this three year old baby could have been in Parliament like me. I have a three year old baby. The mother of this baby could have been in hospital, maybe in a theatre trying to save a life. She could as well be a police woman who is trying to offer security to Kenyans. Finally, the mother of this baby as was shown in the media had been chased out of home. It is very unfortunate for people to ask where the mother of this baby was. What we should ask is: What has happened to our society? We agree that we must all take due care. But, does it mean that women will not move out of their homes to fend for their families because of a crazy criminal who cannot be apprehended? Up to date, these criminals have not been apprehended. The law enforcers have not done their job. Is it that women cannot go around this country safely? Is it that babies will be raped and women will be stripped? We have a problem. Those who are responsible for offering security in this country cannot run away from their role. When the late hon. Michuki, and may God rest his soul in peace, was handling that docket, the country was brought to some sanity under his watch. The

operated in sanity.

Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Order, hon. Tobiko, you should be finishing. The minutes have been reduced to five.

Okay, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I am trying to say that the mob justice that we see in the streets of Kenya is on innocent Kenyans. Our law enforcers must be remunerated well for them to protect us. I wanted to tell my President, Uhuru Kenyatta, not to agree to be brought down by anybody. Those who are not working must leave their dockets and let Kenyans who can offer security do it in this country.

Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Thank you, very well spoken. Hon. Member for Kibwezi West, hon. Patrick Musimba.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. From the outset, as we are noting the President’s Address, I want to extend condolences to the 149 Kenyans who have lost their lives in the many incidences that have occurred. It is high time we proactively echoed His Excellency the President’s words, in saying that this is a broad- based problem which needs a multiple approach. Part of it is the human capital engagement, which is the 12 million youth in Kenya that are currently looking for The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

opportunity to be engaged and provide an able base to this nation as we steer towards the Vision 2030.

One of these approaches could be that the programme which has been ably initiated, which is NYS programmes becomes a base to feeding county employees. These are people who will have a national approach and will be skilled towards security matters. This will have to be a programme that is pushed by this House. The second approach is to remove the pressure from the Internal Security docket and ensure that all Ministries and Government agencies have a certain percentage; even if it is 10 or 15 per cent of the Budgets that we pass in this House. That way, we will have sectoral initiatives towards security and the responsibility of security starts with all of us. It has broadly been handled by the Government, but the Government is the people. People carry this burden of becoming your brother’s keeper. We should take it a step further, that in terms of the risk and threat assessment of our citizenry today, we are mostly Alice in Wonderland. You see a problem approaching you, you think it is a problem, but by the time it is next to you, it has already gobbled you. These were the incidents that were already happening and it is a rendition of the Nazi Germany when millions of Jews were being led to the chamber by just two or three officers and yet people were not thinking of elements of self sacrifice; that a mob of 20 would be willing to die and save many. I am saying this because we have to see each other as part of one problem such that if we can inculcate within the school curricula from Standard One, from the lowest of learning institutions, the element of risk and threat assessment, it will become something which increases our state of alertness. Countries like Turkey, Israel and a majority of the known world have mandatory military service. Where we do not have the capacity - and we are growing that capacity by growing our economy - we can do this through the education sector. We can do this by revamping the scouting movement.

So, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, once again - I see my time is up - I thank you for this opportunity and pray in earnest for this nation.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the Presidential Speech on the state of national security. I want to tell the President that the state of national security in the country is worse than ever before.

With the series of killings we have experienced in this country in the last three months, it is very serious that the state of security in this country is wanting. I want to state that as a country, we do not have a policy. We do not have a national security policy in our country. This is very serious in managing security of a country. The runaway security in the country is purely because we do not have a national security policy. Last time the Cabinet Secretary, Mr. ole Lenku was here and the Principal Secretary by then, Mr. Mutea Iringo, we asked them about the national security policy. They admitted that they did not have it, which is very serious. That is why we are not seeing very well coordinated security operations between our national security forces. We have seen it in many cases including what happened at the Westgate between the Kenya Defence Forces (KDF) and the Kenya Police. It was serious. I want to plead with the President and the National Security Council (NSC) that it is time they moved with speed so that this The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

country can have a national security policy. Let us not cheat ourselves. We have seen Kenya sending the KDF to Somalia to secure it yet we are not secure ourselves.

It is time we called back our forces to defend the citizens of Kenya. They should come and secure the citizens of Kenya and the boundaries of Kenya. You can imagine where we lost 28 lives of Kenyans last week, there was a KDF camp not long ago. It was removed only a week before that incident. On the issue of funding for the security docket, the National Police Service had a Kshs70 billion allocation in the Budget approved by this House. The Kshs70 billion is administered from the Office of the President. When you go to the Inspector-General or the National Police Service Commission (NPSC) to ask for a police station in your constituency, they have to write a letter to the Principal Secretary, Office of the President, which is a very serious matter. We brought an amendment to this House and the President rejected it. So the President himself is part of the insecurity in this country. If he cannot allow the police to have their own funding, how can they operate? There is no equipment. There is no proper training. You saw what happened in Kapedo. The cattle rustlers were more trained. They had superior weapons as compared to what the police had. We want police training to be moved from Embakasi to Kapedo and such other areas. We have seen young men being brought up in Nairobi, going to school at Makini and they are trained in Embakasi---

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Your time is over. Hon. Members, let us plan our five minutes. Hon. Member for Kipipiri, Samuel Gichigi.

Asante sana Naibu Spika wa Muda. Ningetaka pia kuchangia mjadala kuhusu hii Ripoti ambayo Rais wa Kenya aliweza kutupatia kuhusu hali ya usalama katika hii nchi. Ijapokuwa hii Ripoti ilikuwa ya miezi kadhaa ambayo imepita nimeiangalia na ninaona bado mambo yale ambayo imeangalia ni yale ambayo yako. Hakuna kitu kimefanyika kutoka mwezi wa tatu na wa nne mwaka huu ambacho kimebadilisha sababu za ukosefu wa usalama katika hii nchi na pia hakuna mambo ambayo yamebadilika. Yale majadiliano yalikuwa na pia suluhisho ambazo Ripoti hii imetoa bado ni zile zile. Kwa hivyo, hakuna mabadiliko ambayo yamefanyika.

Naibu Spika wa Muda, ningetaka kusema kuwa polisi lazima sasa waanze kuangalia hali ya masomo ya wale wananchi ambao wanaajiriwa katika kikosi ya polisi. Haya mambo ya kuwachukua kutoka mahali ambapo wamelelewa na wamesomea na kuwapeleka hapa Kiganjo ama Embakasi na baada ya hapo wanatumwa Baragoi, Lamu na Mandera mahali ambapo kuna vita kabisa, lazima yabadilishwe. Lazima kuwe na sehemu ya mafunzo yao ambayo inawapeleka Baragoi na kule kwa kichaka Mandera ili haya mambo ya ukora ijulikane. Polisi ambao wanatumwa hapo ni wale ambao wameajiriwa hivi juzi. Wale ambao wamekuwa wakikula mshahara na wana uzoevu wa kazi hawatumwi kule kwa sababu wanaweza kuhongana waweze kukaa hapa Nairobi ama sehemu zile ambazo zina usalama. Vijana wetu wa miaka 21 ndio wanatumwa waende kule. Hawa wengine ambao wamepata vitambi hawawezi hata kuenda kufanya kazi hapo. Kwa hivyo, ni muhimu sana mambo ya masomo yabadilishwe. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Pili, kwa hili jambo la ukosefu wa kazi kwa vijana, tusiliangalie tuseme eti polisi ndio wataleta suluhisho katika hii nchi. Lazima tutafutie vijana wetu kazi. Huu uamuzi wa Serikali kuwa watu waendelee kufanya kazi na wastaafu baada ya miaka 60, lazima ubadilishwe. Tupatie vijana wetu nafasi ya kufanya kazi. Lazima wananachi wastaafu wakiwa na miaka 55 kama ilivyokuwa. Jambo la mtu kupata mshahara kwa muda wa zaidi ya miaka 30 lazima likome. Vijana wetu watafutiwe kazi.

Tatu, ukosefu wa usalama umechangiwa na jambo la ufisadi. Sisi wote tunafahamu vyema kuwa wakora wengi ambao wanaingia humu nchini wamepatiwa vibali katika mipaka yetu, hapa Nairobi na kwingineko na maofisa wa idara kadha wa kadha ambazo zinahusiana na upeanaji vibali. Hao ndio wanasababisha ukosefu wa usalama katika nchi hii.

Naibu Spika wa Muda, hatuwezi kuboresha usalama katika nchi hii kama tunafikiria polisi ndio wataleta usalama. Lazima viongozi wote na wananchi wote wa Kenya wakubali vile Rais alisema jana kwamba, usalama katika nchi hii ni jukumu lako na langu. Sisi ambao tuna watoto, ni filimu gani ambazo tunanunulia watoto wetu waangalie? Ni zile ambazo zina bunduki ambazo watoto wanajifunza nazo? Ukienda kuwanunulia vitu vya kuchezea, unawanunulia bunduki ya maji? Sisi wenyewe ndio tunaleta ukosefu wa usalama katika nchi hii na ni jukumu letu kuhakikisha hayo yanafanyika pia.

Naibu Spika wa Muda, ni muhimu pia tuanze kuangalia mambo ya polisi ili tuhakikisha kwamba wako na vifaa vya kutosha.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Your time is over, thank you. Let us hear from hon. Ngikor, Member of Parliament for Turkana East Constituency.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this chance to contribute to this Report.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Order, hon. Ngikor! Let us make a few consultations. We are not supposed to contribute twice to the same debate. Let me consult a bit.

I have not contributed to this debate.

Jana uliongea kwa hii Hoja bwana!

That was on a different debate. Actually, it was on the Adjournment Motion.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Hon. Ngikor, we have the record for yesterday’s contribution. It is important to clarify. I want to assure you that hon. Nicholas Ngikor, hon. Member of Parliament for Turkana East Constituency, did not contribute on the same Motion. Therefore, hon. Ngikor, you have the right. You can continue.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for that clarification. I rise to contribute to this Report on the security of our country. There are facts that have contributed to the insecurity of this country. The level at which we recruit our officers has contributed a lot to insecurity in our country. We made a mistake when we decided to be recruiting officers at higher grades. Most of these officers do not concentrate on their The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

work but are busy pursuing studies. Therefore, it is high time our officers went back to where we were when we used to recruit officers. In my constituency, those who were joining security forces that time used to have only their identification cards and they used to do a good job. But when we started recruiting young boys from high school with grades of D-(Minus) and D+ (Plus), our security was compromised because they have gone there and concentrated on their studies. They go to university instead of going to Kapedo or Mandera. That is where the challenge is. Therefore, we need to look at that. We should give the right person that job. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, the other issue which has contributed to insecurity in our country is the way the budget is handled. When we talk about the budget here in Parliament---

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Thank you, your time is over.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, my time was taken by you when you were making clarification.

(Hon. (Ms) Mbalu): Yes. It was a clarification because it is important for hon. Members to follow our rules and procedures. We cannot allow an hon. Member to contribute twice. It was good to confirm that the hon. Member did not contribute yesterday. Therefore, the list protects you. Hon. Members, please join me in recognizing Galole Constituency Development Fund (CDF) Committee members who are seated in the Speaker’s Gallery, courtesy of hon. Dukicha, hon. Member of Parliament for Galole Constituency, who is in the House. Let us hear from hon. (Dr.) Robert Pukose, hon. Member for Endebess Constituency.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this very important Motion. One of the biggest challenges in this country is that we have had many cases of ex-servicemen. You can imagine somebody who is trained, has been dismissed from duty, is living outside there and has to earn a living. The Government needs to look into this and see how we take care of the ex-servicemen, so that they do not contribute to the issue of insecurity. We also wonder whether there is internal sabotage among the officers. There are problems in terms of intelligence sharing and being able to neutralise the enemies and prevent crime. That can also be a big challenge. Just to come to the issue of budgeting, when this House appropriated Kshs70 billion, we expected that our officers would live well. When we went to Wajir, we found out that our APs, who live next to the hospital, are living in dilapidated houses, which have been condemned. How do you expect somebody who is living in a condemned house to be motivated to do his work diligently and protect the people of this country? As a nation, we must look at the conditions in which our officers are working. We should make sure they are provided with not just the equipment, but also good housing facilities. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, we promulgated a new Constitution and provided that Cabinet Secretaries are not Members of Parliament, but this was a big mistake. At the end of the day, we bring in somebody who bakes mandazis to be in charge of security and expect that person to give us guidance in as far as security is concerned. This is a big problem and as a nation, we must re-look at the issue of how we The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

constitute our Cabinet. Most of our Cabinet Secretaries are just behaving like Permanent Secretaries. They are in office and are not able to implement some of the issues that need to be implemented by Cabinet Secretaries. We should issue Executive orders that they should implement. Another big challenge is the 12 million youths who are unemployed in this country. They need to earn a living. How do we take care of them? Unless we answer that question, the issue of insecurity is not going to be handled the easy way. Maybe the contribution from the NYS can be something but as a nation, we must also think about better ways of attracting investments. When you go to many places in Industrial Area, many of the factories that were there have been converted into warehouses for storing goods. When goods are stored in warehouses, unemployment becomes a critical issue. A few of those who would have worked in the factories will be absorbed as storekeepers and security officers, but if the factory was operational, the employees would be more. The other issue is that this Report was submitted in March. We are now in November, discussing a report that was submitted in the last financial year. As a National Assembly, we must bring the Presidential Report within the shortest time possible after it is presented. It was presented in March, we should have discussed it and be through with it by April. With those remarks, I thank you.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Thank you. We are discussing the current one that we have. The Member for Laikipia West, hon. Stephen Karani. Hon. Karani, put your card on the intervention slot. Yes, there you go. Please, proceed.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I would also like to join my colleagues and Kenyans to condole the families of the 28 people who were killed in Mandera. I wish to add my voice on this topic. The ratio of police to Kenyans is very low. One police officer is assigned to many Kenyans. It becomes impossible to handle them. One way of solving that problem is to recruit more police officers. This parliament has done its part. It has appropriated funds for that exercise. The Executive arranged recruitment to be done on14th of July. Five months down the line, those young men and women who were recruited successfully have not joined the Police Force because they have not been trained. We have a lot of wastage in this country. We have officers who are being paid fully to recruit and train those young men and women in Embakasi, Kiganjo and Ruaraka. For three months, they have been earning their salaries without doing their work as trainers. That is because one arm of the Government is not doing its work. It is true that the courts have rights to give all types of orders. For five months now, they have not given a verdict on the recruitment case. They could have given it a priority so that our recruited young men and women can go to college. We have a very sad case in my constituency. There is a young girl aged 27 years whose parents died of HIV/AIDS. They were left under the care of her grandmother who is blind. On that particular recruitment day, they called me when I was in this House. They requested me to give them fare so that, that girl could go for recruitment. Fortunately, the girl was successfully recruited. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Five months down the line, the young girl is still at home. The most unfortunate thing is that, if the court orders for the exercise to be repeated, she will be unfortunate because she will have clocked 27 years in October. The police requirement is that you should not be more than 27 years. Even if it was repeated today, that innocent girl would not be part of those who would be recruited. I want to thank His Excellency the President for his address to the nation yesterday. He said that security is not one person’s job. He even reminded us that the buck does not stop with so and so. The truth of the matter is that it stops with all of us as Kenyans. Therefore, we are requesting that this exercise be fast-tracked. The second thing that worried me is this: Recently, I heard a very senior governor say that the security docket should be devolved to the counties. It was a very sad day for me. I tried thinking about that issue. When the unfortunate incident happened at Kapedo, I tried to imagine if the Governor of West Pokot and Baringo had their own army and policemen. I take this opportunity to request all leaders, when they are addressing our people, to give information that would be beneficial to this country. Thank you very much.

Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Thank you, hon. Member. Thank you for helping the girl-child. Hon. M.D. Duale, the Floor is yours.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the Report. From the outset, the security situation of this country has been deteriorating for the last few months. First, I want to send my sincere condolences to the many Kenyans who have lost their lives in various security incidences, including the ones at Mandera and Kapedo. Basically, the security challenges facing this country can be classified into three categories. One is the Al Shabaab or terror related security challenge, cattle rustling and normal ordinary crimes that happen ordinarily. The biggest threat to this country is AlShabaab related terror attacks which have happened in our capital City of Nairobi, Mpeketoni in Lamu, Mandera and Garissa County, including the constituency that I represent. Security personnel have been killed and others kidnapped. I want to say that, if we were to address this issue, we should not shy away from telling His Excellency the President to take action. The President should address the people in charge of security. Security challenges can be attributed to the managers of security and the implementers. For example, if a football team does not perform, you should change the coach. If security situation has been going bad, it is time for His Excellency the President to change managers in charge of security. Those include the Cabinet Secretary and the police chiefs. In Mandera for instance, we have been hearing statements from the Teachers Service Commission (TSC), the Kenya National Union of Teachers (KNUT), Civil Service and other people saying that those Kenyans who do not come from Mandera should leave and go back to their districts. That is the whole intention of Al-Shabaab .

wants to polarize this country in terms of ethnicity and religion. When you direct that people leave such parts of the country, then Al Shabaab shall have won the day. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

As leaders, we should not take that direction. Rather, we should try to correct the situation so that we remain as one country. The reason why we are one nation is to enable the people to work wherever they are. There have been issues of the presence of Kenya Defence Forces (KDF) in Somalia. There have been statements saying that we should withdraw our forces. I want to tell this House that the KDF in Somalia is part of AMISOM. We have troops from Ethiopia, Uganda, Burundi, Sierra Leon, and Djibouti. From all those nations, it is only Djibouti, Kenya and Ethiopia that borders Somalia. Others do not. One time, the Uganda Defence Force lost 70 men in Mogadishu in one incident and yet, they did not border Somalia directly. The issue of terrorism is a global issue. It is something we all wish away. We have to address it together as a nation. We cannot put blame on certain regions, tribes or religions. In my constituency, there are places I cannot go because I fear for my life. The same applies to Members of Parliament from those areas. We were in Wajir last week and we got information that there was an attempt to burn the Diesel Powered Generator in Wajir Town. This was an action that Al Shabaab wanted to do. The activities they are doing include economic sabotage, creating inter-religious and inter-ethnic conflicts. We should be careful not to fall into their traps. The issue of the curfew in Lamu after the Mpeketoni incident was a very sad one because many Kenyans lost their lives. However, having a curfew in Lamu for the last six months is not going to help. The people in Lamu depend on tourism, fishing and trade. When you put a curfew from 6.00 a.m. to 6.00p.m., then you will have literally killed the economy of those people. They have become poorer, impoverished and that is not going to help this country.

Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to also talk about the current security situation in our country in relation to the Report that His Excellency the President brought to this House. The sole responsibility of any Government is to protect life and property. We have heard in this House that since we came to the Eleventh Parliament, we have been forced to adjourn the business of the House to discuss insecurity in this country.

( Loud consultations )

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, please, protect me from some of the Members who are really talking very loudly. I want to say that this country has been on fire since this Government was elected. When you look at the proliferation of illicit arms, we are told in this Report that there are about 500,000 illicit small arms in Kenya. That is very worrying. The 500,000 small arms are very many. Those are too many guns in the wrong hands. The many crimes that we hear in our country are because of those arms that are in the wrong hands. Let me say that the only way we can get rid of them is for the Government to work very hard, particularly in the northern front. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I do not see the reason why we have so many KDF personnel in town. We should take them over there. That is where we need them, instead of having them in camps where they are not doing anything. When you hear that we have 665,747 refugees in this country, particularly in Dadaab where my friend comes from, it is very worrying. The 665,000 refugees are almost an entire county like Narok. That population is bigger than the population of most counties in this country. Probably, very soon, we will have 48 counties simply because of the refugees. People have taken advantage of our generosity by welcoming people from other countries that have problems. I think it is about time, if, indeed, they are the ones bringing problems, to find a way of getting rid of them. It is a hard decision but we must make it for the sake of our own country and ourselves. When you hear of resource-based conflicts such as cattle rustling--- I come from one of the communities that used to practise cattle rustling, but they do not do it anymore. The only thing I can say is that, that problem can be tackled by the county governments. The counties can actually hire game rangers to protect their boundaries from cattle rustling and poaching. I can see my time is almost up. I want to say that poaching is something that, as a country, we must stop. That is because we are killing our heritage. I represent a constituency which has one of the biggest natural reserves in this country, and a lot of wildlife is being killed by people who are coming from all over this country. The reason they are killing those animals is because of the horns and elephant tusks. They are very expensive. I want to call upon the Government to take that matter very seriously. I believe many employees, particularly those who are employed at Kenya Wildlife Service (KWS), are involved in those deals. Corruption is killing our heritage and unless the President, the Deputy President and the Government---

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Your time is over. Hon. Kajuju, you can use the Dispatch Box. Hon. Members you are required by Standing Orders to avoid repetition. Let us have two or three hon. Members contributing before I call upon the Mover to reply. All of you are equal Members and we cannot say that one or two can be specially considered. That one I say no. Hon. Kajuju, you have the Floor.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to comment on this Motion by our beloved President, His Excellency Uhuru Kenyatta. As it was said by the United Nations (UN) Secretary-General Mr. Ban Ki Moon, there cannot be development without peace; there cannot be peace without development. That is so very true because we have seen that the events that are happening in our society, as it were are not only killing the economy of this country, but are destroying the social fabric of human beings as we are. We know that our security depends on individuals to ensure that we are secure. When the Jubilee Government started the Nyumba Kumi Initiative, the idea was to ensure that we know our neighbours. That way, if there are suspicious characters within us, then we are able to report and ensure that we also assist the law enforcers to secure our country. We have seen events that have killed the spirit of our brothers and sisters in Kenya. What is happening in various communities within our country is not a good example, especially now that we are going into the festive Christmas season that we are supposed to be enjoying the birth of Jesus Christ. We know that the economy of, especially, the County Government of Mombasa is supported by the tourism industry. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Should we continue with the kind of insecurity that we are experiencing today, it means that what they get as a county will not be there. So, we are calling upon ourselves as individuals to ensure that we take care of our security. We also call upon our security enforcers to ensure that they are more vigilant. I know Kenyans are resilient people and they are going to ensure that nothing kills their spirit. We have seen cases where our girls and our women are being stripped naked. This is part of the insecurity that we are speaking about. We condemn it in the strongest terms and say that, that is not right. It is not legal. It is not Christian and we do not know why people are engaging in that kind of behavior. We know that we must treat each person with the dignity that they deserve. Those persons who have committed crimes, especially of sexual assault upon our girls and women, must be arrested, prosecuted and must be convicted. Our Judiciary has a right to ensure that any person, who is charged with a crime especially of sexual assault or sexual harassment, undergoes proper channels to ensure that we deter those criminals who are engaging in such acts. It appears, if we look at the incidents that have been happening, that it is more of a cultic issue. Persons take videos to ensure that they have posted in the social media. When they post them, I do not know whether they are getting any rewards for that. As a country and, as a society, as women and as brothers and sisters, we must call upon those people to stop. Whenever they are taken to court, we must ensure that, even as the police, we collect proper evidence so that we can have those persons convicted. At the end of the day, it will act as deterrence to the community so that our girls, our women and children can remain safe. We, therefore, say that Kenyans must ensure that this is a country that is comfortable not only for ourselves, but even the people that want to come and visit us; people who want to come and invest in our country; people who want to come and enjoy what we have in Kenya. I, therefore, support what the President said yesterday. We should ensure that all that we do, we do it in support of all Kenyans. I support and thank you.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): The hon. Member for Sirisia, hon. John Waluke Koyi, you have the Floor.

Thank you very much, for giving me this chance. Let me start by thanking the President for the sentiments that he expressed yesterday, and I agree with him. He should put in more effort. He is the President of this country and he should not fear giving commands because he is the Commander-in-Chief of the Kenya Defence Forces. His father was like a lion! I remember when we were still young; we heard stories about the former President, the late Mzee Jomo Kenyatta – the father of our current President. We want him to follow suit and give very strong commands. As leaders of this country, we should support him. He should not fear to take action against officers who are sleeping on their jobs. Our security chiefs are not working the way they are supposed to work and, therefore, they should go home. The President must act without favour or fear. Those people are letting down this country. The President should not allow them to let him down. They do not work for free. They are paid to look after this country. If some of them are his friends, there is no friendship when it comes to work.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, we have lost very many Kenyans. This should not continue just because of laxity. This country needs peace. It has been peaceful for The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

very many years. I support my colleagues who have said that the Kenya Defence Forces (KDF) should not be withdrawn from Somalia. Doing so would be showing cowardice. I know that they are well trained. The Americans shied off and pulled out their forces from Somalia. But Kenya, as a strong country with well- trained forces, should continue fighting the terrorists in Somalia. As Members of Parliament, we need to remain united. The two Houses of Parliament – the Senate and the National Assembly – should chart the way forward with a view to supporting the leadership of this country to tackle insecurity. Whenever there is a problem, we should think together. If we observe that something is wrong somewhere, we should advise the President to act appropriately.

Refugees are the ones who are causing a lot of problems in this country. Kenya should not host refugees forever. There are many other countries where they can be taken to. We have hosted them long enough. Time has come for the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) to relocate the refugees to another country, so that we can have peace. Thank you very much.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): I will give the Floor to the Member for Laikipia East and, thereafter, to the Member for Kesses, whose request has been pending for long.

Hon. Members, those are rules of your own making. If you look at the Order Paper, on 503, you will appreciate that this House resolved on Wednesday, 12th February, 2014 as follows:- “THAT, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order 97(4), each speech in a debate on any Motion, including a Special Motion, shall be limited in the following manner:- A maximum of three hours with not more than twenty (20) minutes for the Mover and ten (10) minutes for each other Member speaking, except the Leader of the Majority Party and the Leader of the Minority Party, who shall be limited to a maximum of fifteen (15) minutes each, and that ten (10) minutes before the expiry of the time, the Mover shall be called upon to reply; and that priority in speaking be accorded to the Leader of the Majority Party, the Leader of the Minority Party and the Chairperson of the relevant Departmental Committee, in that Order. Hon. Members, that is why we say that this is a House of rules and procedures. Carry on, hon. Kimaru!

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this Report by the President. Security issues are very important. To underscore what my colleague has just said, nothing can go on in this country or anywhere in the world without security. We have witnessed in our own country, the breakdown of law and order. We should appreciate that law and order is not lost overnight. The little things that are happening today – the stripping naked of women and the near-rape of girls in matatus – is worrying. It shows that something really needs to be done to address the situation countrywide.

The situation begs this question: Are we having a re-insurgence of criminal groups like Mungiki ? As we lose control of order in the country, is someone else taking over control of the situation? That is something which the Government needs to seriously think about. I will underscore what other Members have said. When the late hon. Michuki – may his soul rest in peace – undertook to crack down on insecurity, it was not The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

an easy job. It took a while for him to bring security back to where it was. If we sleep on the job today and allow the security situation to deteriorate, it will require a lot of effort to take it back to where it was before. Therefore, the time to act seriously is now. As Members of this House, when we say that the situation is bad, everybody should take us seriously. We also feel for the people out there, who also feel that something needs to be done. It is the responsibility of the Government to act appropriately. If I may be allowed to put a little blame on the Members in the Opposition, it is not time to whine as we go through the challenges that we are currently facing. It is not the time to get political mileage.

When Kenyans die, nobody should seem to be dancing on their graves. Nobody should seem to be taking capital out of that situation. A leader worth his salt should join every other leader in this country to put things right. When some people hail the actions of Al Shabaab, what do you do? You encourage them to do it again. When Al Shabaab feels that the nation of Kenya is not speaking the same language, you give them room to perpetrate more crimes against our people. As a nation, we must stand together during this difficult time, even as we demand our leadership to do what is right.

The courts are not blameless. There are games that are going on in the courts. We cannot afford to play around with our security. We have more than 3,000 Kenyans waiting to be trained as policemen. The courts have no business interfering with the programme, no matter how the process was done. I would ask the President to do what his predecessor did, when he appointed the County Commissioners and the courts declared them un-constitutional. Why can the young men and women not just proceed with the training as we appeal the court ruling? I am not suggesting that we disregard the Constitution and the judicial process but, at times, the judicial process is wrong. At times, we have a judicial system that is more like the people on the streets who are making noise, agitating and doing things they should not do. When it comes to---

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Your time is over, hon. Kimaru. What is your point of order, hon. Keynan?

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I have listened to what my good friend, the Member for Laikipia East, has said. He has said that he has seen Members of the Opposition dancing on the graves of Kenyans. Being a Member of the Opposition, I believe that is a very outrageous statement. The entire country has been mourning. Those criminal acts have been condemned by everybody. Unless he has evidence to suggest otherwise, I want him to apologize profusely and withdraw. That is a reckless statement which should not be entertained at this time of mourning. Therefore, it should not be left in the records of this House.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Thank you, hon. Keynan. Your sentiments have been heard. Hon. Member for Laikipia East, your time is over. Your sentiments have been heard. We allowed you to speak, but the point of order has already been raised. Let us give a chance to the Member for Kesses, hon. J.K. Bett. Hon. James Kimaru has concluded his contribution. Do you want him to reply?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, this is a House of procedure and records. Unless that statement is expunged, with your direction, it will remain permanently as part of the archive of the 11th Parliament. Therefore, I want to plead with you that since the Member cannot really demonstrate that there are Opposition Members The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

of Parliament who were dancing on the graves of Kenyans, then the honest thing for him to do is to stand, apologize and withdraw that statement. Otherwise, it will remain as part of our records.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Hon. Keynan, the Member’s time for contribution was over, but since he was ready to respond to the call by hon. Keynan--- Hon. Kimaru, can you respond to that?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, indeed, I did not infer to Members of Parliament. If you listened to me clearly, I talked about the leadership in the Opposition. When I talk about the leadership in Opposition, I am referring to a particular person. However, if the Members of this House are offended, I will withdraw that statement in as far as it refers to Members of Parliament. There are some who are culpable and guilty. In my statement, I did not refer to Members of Parliament.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Hon. Member, are you withdrawing the statement? That is the satisfaction that hon. Keynan wants to get.

I have withdrawn.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Thank you. Let us move on, hon. Members. He has withdrawn. We should now be calling upon the Mover to reply.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this important subject of the state of security in the country. My attention has been drawn to the incident that happened in Mandera last week. The incident itself was a paradigm shift from what we have traditionally known to happen because it played a religious card. The people who alighted from the bus were supposed to declare their religious affiliation. That is a new paradigm shift from what we have traditionally known to happen, where those clashes have always been ethnic-based. This is a strong indication for officers who are heading the security apparatus in the country that even as we enter the festive season of December, they should pull up their socks and fold their sleeves, so that Kenyans can enjoy the festive season without any fear or intimidation. I am calling upon the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and Coordination of National Government (CS), the Inspector-General of Police (IG) and Johnstone Kavuludi to ensure that Kenyans have a good Christmas festive season. We must ask ourselves as Kenyans: How many Kenyans do the Cabinet Secretary, Inspector-General of Police and the Kavuludi group expect to die so that they can up the security? I also want to mention that the issue of a long porous border between Somalia and Kenya is not an excuse for the insecurity situation in the country. This border has always been there. The border between Somalia and Ethiopia is equally big, but they do not experience those problems. We want to ask the Cabinet Secretary, the Inspector-General and the Kavuludi group to ensure that Kenyans have enough security. I also want to take issue with the level of education at which we take people to the military. In the past, we used to take people who had just finished Standard Seven or Standard Eight. The performance of security officers is not directly correlated to the level of education. In my opinion, we should lower the grade at which we take people both to the military and the police. From experience, the higher the grade, the less the performance! When you take people with grades C+ (Plus) and above, they will not put The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

more emphasis on security but on education. I want to appeal to the recruiting agencies - and I stand to be corrected - to give provision for people who completed Standard Eight and to set a minimum of D+ (plus) grade. This will ensure that we have people who are committed and who are there to protect this country. Otherwise, if you recruit graduates, they will not be interested in the security of this country. In conclusion, the prevailing security situation in the country will definitely deny the Jubilee Government the chance of making our economy to grow at double digits. No single investor will invest in an economy whose political future and security is not assured. I want to ask Kavuludi, the Inspector-General of Police and the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and Coordination of National Government to ensure that the situation is normalized.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Thank you, hon. Member. This is a House of rules and procedures. I, therefore, call upon the Mover to reply.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I have ten minutes and with your permission, I would like to donate two minutes each to hon. Serem, hon. Lomenen and hon. Nyaga. However, be strict. They should take only two minutes each and if they exceed, please cut them short.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Hon. Members, Chief Whip, hon. Katoo, has only ten minutes. He is philanthropic enough to donate two minutes to each of the three Members. So, hon. Members, take two minutes only. Hon. Serem.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. Let me thank the Mover of the Motion. Before that, I want to make a few remarks in terms of the situation that we are in, in this country. We have a safer Somalia and a very unsafe Kenya. As my colleague had mentioned earlier, we have leaders in this country who are dancing on the graves of Kenyans. If you watched news yesterday or two days ago, some were pretending and making noise saying: “Oh, Garissa bomb! Oh Mombasa bomb!” They are not serious when we are discussing issues that touch on the security of this country. I wonder whether they asked to be leaders of this country. They lack the ability and passion to be leaders of this country. I urge them to be careful. You may have differences in opinion with the leaders in power, but you should respect those who were at the Lee Funeral Home. I am very concerned that this country is moving in a different direction. The officers of the National Intelligence Service (NIS) are busy out there showing their business cards and saying: “I am so and so. I work for NIS.” They are pulling off their cover and cannot deliver if they are moving around with their business cards. If they are saying that they went to school and have degrees, they should leave this business and let others do the job. We had Criminal Investigations Department (CID) and Special Branch officers who went up to Class Four and they did a wonderful job for this country. I insist that something has to be done so that our country can be safe again.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Thank you. Your two minutes are over. Hon. Ekomwa, put your card on the intervention slot. You have two minutes please. Be philanthropic, hon. Katoo ole Metito. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you very much for the two minutes. First of all, I want to thank the President for what he said and for giving us this Report. I have some advice for the President. First, for those in charge of insecurity, I will not tell them to resign. I advise the President to reshuffle his Cabinet to make sure he has taken care of security. Secondly, as we speak, there are three groups of criminals in this country that are mistreating Kenyans. One category is the Al Shabaab that is attacking Mandera, Mombasa and even Nairobi. The other criminals are cattle rustlers. The third category of criminals that the Government is supposed to deal with are the strippers - those who are stripping women. The women of Kenya are very worried now. They are not even ready to board buses. They are not ready to go to public places because they are afraid. When women fear, we have no nation. So, this Government must take care of women. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, you are also a woman. You need to be protected. You deserve all the dignity. We all came from women. We need to protect women. I have just shown the Majority Whip one of the portraits that is being shown in USA. It is says: “Do not go to Kenya. In Kenya women are stripped naked in broad day light and there is no help from the Government”. It is here! This is bad for Kenya. We need to change that. Finally, I want to tell this Government that the philosophy of Kenyans is that once they elect a leader, they bring their entire burden to him. They do not want to know whether the leader can afford it or not. So, this Government must know that Kenyans have bestowed their power on them. I urge the Government and my President, Uhuru Kenyatta, that he should take this seriously. We should increase the number of Kenya Defence Forces (KDF) troops in Mandera, Mombasa and the northern part of Kenya. The police who are not capable, let them take care of women---

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Thank you. Your time is over. It is true and nothing but the truth that I am a woman and I need to be protected. Hon. Nyaga, hon. Member for Manyatta, you have two minutes.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this Motion. It is unfortunate that in this era and time, we have people in towns and in bus stops moving around and stripping women. It is unfortunate. We need to curb it with immediate effect. It is sad that, up to this moment, no one has been prosecuted. I will just go straight to the issue of security forces. I want to say this with the experience as a politician and as a person who has served in the military; we need to take stock of our Police Force or the National Police. Do they have the capacity to handle the terrorists? For quite a long time, we have seen policemen being maimed. If police are being maimed and killed by terrorists, what about the common mwananchi ? It is, therefore, important for the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security and the Departmental Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations to take stock and investigate thoroughly whether our Police Force has the capacity. We should stop the business of sending our KDF to intervene always. Let us equip our police properly. Let us pay them well. Let us give them medical insurance. Let us give them equipment and modern technology to fight terrorism and common crime which we have in the rural and urban areas. I think we will move around properly. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

No investor will come to this country to invest with the kind of banditry action that we are seeing in Turkana, Lamu, Mombasa and other areas. Otherwise, we are going to kill our economy because our security forces are not able to tackle security the way they are supposed to. Last but not least, it is the issue of sacking Mr. ole Lenku and the Inspector- General of Police. By doing that, you will not be---

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Thank you, hon. Nyaga. Hon. Members, I now have four minutes for the Majority Whip, hon. Katoo.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I will try to utilize my four minutes. First, I want to thank all hon. Members who got a chance to contribute to this very important Report. I want to say that the views that hon. Members have given are very important. One, it has become very evident that security is everyone’s responsibility and we should all join hands in fighting insecurity in this country. Two, it has also been captured from the contribution of hon. Members that we need to institutionalise security and keep the security reforms on-going through legislation, policy and institutional frameworks. I think this House needs to take its role in that. We need to bring legislation, policy and institutional framework that will fill the gaps that are causing insecurity in this country. Three, it has also become very clear that fighting insecurity requires a holistic approach where all actors are synergized in one basket .We need to do that as a country and stop the blame-game. The issue of resource allocation has also come up from the contribution of hon. Members; that we need to allocate enough or adequate resources to our security agencies in order to modernize their equipment. We should also take care of their welfare. That is also another aspect for this House. As a House, we should allocate resources in terms of budgeting. We should take care of that next time the budget is brought to this House. Finally, we need to strengthen National Intelligence Service (NIS). All hon. Members have talked of proper and modern ways of gathering intelligence. They have even proposed to give NIS powers to arrest. It is also within the powers of this House to think of many ways of strengthening our intelligence and by doing so, we are going to arrest the insecurity in this country. All those views have been taken into account and I want to assure this House that in formulating the National Security Policy that hon. Members have talked about, all this will be taken into account. Therefore, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Hon. Members, the Question will not be put today in this sitting. I, therefore, direct that it be put in the next sitting at an appropriate time. Next Order.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): This is Order No. 11. Do we have hon. Keynan to move?

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I beg to move the following Motion:- The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

THAT, this House adopts the Seventeenth Report of the Public Investments Committee (PIC) on the Accounts of State Corporations, Volume I & II, laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, December 21, 2010.

As you realize, this is not a current Report. This is a Report that was done by the last Parliament. Ideally, this Report should have been concluded in the last Parliament. Again, you realize, PIC, being one of the two watchdog Committees, was unable to table its 19th Report until the 17th and 18th Reports are concluded. You see, sometimes, this is why I say Parliament is a House of rules. We must at all times be prepared to stick to our rules because that is the only way we can also demonstrate that we are people who follow the rule of law. Otherwise, this Report has been overtaken by events. None of the hon. Members, except one person, who participated in this report--- You see the challenge right now because we are dealing with issues that have been forgotten but, again, we must stick to our procedures.

I will take the shortest time possible to go through the Report. The Public Investments Committee is one of the select committees established under Standing Order No. 206 and is responsible for the examination of public investments. Its mandate includes examining reports and accounts of public investments, examining reports of the Auditor-General on public investments, examining investments in the context of autonomy and efficiency of public investments, and whether the affairs of public investments are being managed according to sound financial and business principles and prudent commercial practices.

The members of the Committee at that particular time were the following:- Hon. Mithika Linturi who was the Chairman. He is still a member of the Public Investments Committee. Other than the other commitments he has had, he was prepared to move this Report because he has the institutional memory on some of the pertinent issues that are raised in the Report. The other Members were:- Hon. Yusuf Chanzu, hon. David Eseli, hon. John Mbadi, hon. David Were, hon. Kabogo, hon. Cyrus Rutere, hon. Luka Kigen, hon. Sammy Mwaita, hon. Ephraim Maina and hon. Cyrus Jirongo.

At that time, the committee had a membership of 11 members. The Report looked into the accounts of 27 State corporations. It attempted to look at accounts of many State corporations starting with the Jomo Kenyatta Foundation from 1999 to 2008, Nzoia Sugar Company from 1999 to 2001, Chemelil Sugar Company from 2005 to 2008, Water Services Trust Fund from 2004 to 2007, National Social Security Fund from 2001 to 2003, the University of Nairobi from 2002 to 2008, National Environment Management Authority, Kenyatta National Hospital from 2004 to 2007, Kenya Railways Corporation from 2003 to 2007, Kenya Medical Training College from 2003 to 2007, National AIDS Control Council from 2001 to 2007, Agricultural Development Corporation from 1999 to 2007, Kenya Ports Authority from 2003 to 2008, Kenyatta University from 1999 to 2008, Kenya Airports Authority from 2005 to 2008, Kenya Roads Board from 2002 to 2006, Moi University from 1999 to 2008, Ewaso-Nyiro North Development Authority from 1999 to 2007 and, finally, Kenya Pipeline Company from 2003 to 2008.

We are struggling right now as a Committee to clear the backlog. I wish to report that over the last 12 months, we have already done the accounts of over 130 State corporations in order to clear the backlog. In the last Parliament, for five years, they did The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

about 27. Our desire is just like hon. Khalwale did for Public Accounts Committee. The next Parliament, Inshallah, the 12 Parliament should not have any backlog, so that they can enjoy being Members. Right now, we are dealing with historical issues in one of the corporations. We are forced to deal with issues of 1988. How do you sustain an audit query of 1988 when the players have changed? How do you even remember? How do you even account for it? One of the reasons that caused that delay was not by Members alone; there were issues with the Office of the Auditor-General. But the way the Committee itself carried its activities was also an issue. Those issues will be history once we will be ready to type the 19th Report.

In this 17th Report, one issue that was flagged out was the concession of Kenya Railways Corporation. It is a finding of this Committee that the concession was not properly done. This is not the Report of the 11th Parliament. Therefore, whatever recommendations you will see here are not the recommendations of the current Public Investments Committee (PIC). They are recommendations that were carried over from the last Parliament. The Committee felt that the concession was not handled well. It was not transparent. When the concession of Kenya Railways Corporation was done, national interest was not taken into account. That is why the product is not doing well. One of the recommendations of the Committee is: Because the concession was done, the Director of the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC), as it was called before the new Constitution, should investigate all the players involved.

Secondly, the Committee recommended that KACC should also carry out investigations to establish the role played by the Treasury and why it did not put in place the necessary measures to safeguard public interest. Because of this, the Committee has recommended that the Treasury should always be prepared to safeguard the public interest in any investment venture. That is because those who are supposed to enjoy dividends are the taxpayers. Therefore, should any investments fail--- I stand here to say that, to date, all the serious investments - those of concession and privatisation of public investments - have not been done very well. We have heard about Telkom Kenya, Kenya Oil Refinery, Kenya Airways and many other investments that the Government has divested. They are not doing very well. One of the causes of that is that privatization was not well thought-out. We have the Kenya Privatisation Commission, the Investment Secretary and the Kenya Investment Authority. Those institutions must be prepared to safeguard the interest of the Kenyan taxpayers at all times. Look at what is happening to Telkom Kenya; it inherited one of the biggest telecommunication infrastructures and yet, it cannot compete with Safaricom and Airtel. They inherited everything from the old Kenya Postal and Telecommunications Corporation (KPTC). I do not think the desire was to make proper investments; the desire was to get the properties, the land and everything from the old KPTC and use those utilities instead of having Telkom as a viable investment institution. This issue should be investigated.

With regard to privatisation, you have seen what has happened to the sugar sector. Look at what has happened to Chemelil, Mumias and Miwani Sugar companies. Today, all of them are shells. What has happened to that investment? Is Kenya going to remain a sugar importing nation when we have some of the richest sugar belts in Africa? What has The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

happened to the sugar sector? Why are those institutions not doing well? Why is Mumias Sugar Company on the brink of collapse? Who are the individuals who participated in this? Why are Chemilil and Nzoia Sugar companies not functioning? It is simply because the privatisation was not well thought-out. Those are issues which, as a country, we must be prepared to deal with if we really want to make meaningful gains out of privatisation. It is not fair to privatise a public entity at a throw-away price and then you just leave criminals to benefit. Let us look at the investments and privatisations that we have carried out so far. The Kenya Meat Commission (KMC), Mumias Sugar Company, Telkom Kenya and Kenya Oil Refineries are all dead. Which privatisation of a public entity has succeeded? The only one was Kenya Airways and it is not doing very well right now. We need to go back to the drawing board and find out why those investments are not doing well. Look at Kenya Railways Corporation; for those who are familiar with the history of Rift Valley Railways, we sold it and all its properties. Today, we are back to where we were in 1999. Those are issues which we must address as leaders. That is because our work is to safeguard public interests. How can we safeguard public interest? We must be prepared at all times to safeguard public investments. That is the only way we can have a country- --

Today, one of the causes of insecurity in Kenya is unemployment and high poverty index. How can we reduce that if we have a sluggish economy and one that cannot sustain itself? That is why today we are in the process of increasing our debt ration simply because there is no correlation between what we have done, what we intend to do and where we are going. Those are the realities that we must be prepared to face. Let us call a spade a spade.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, today, for those who are here - and I want my good friend to hear this - our Shilling has been under constant pressure for the last one year. In March 2013, the Shilling was exchanging with the Dollar at 83.84 but today, the exchange rate is at Kshs92. What has happened with all those mega and high projects and investments that we are talking about? It is something that is not adding up. There is a

in our investment portfolio. Those issues must be addressed. Otherwise, today, inflation is spiraling. It is at its highest since the last 10 years. Even what you are earning as an hon. Member of Parliament, you will be reduced to a pauper. The loan that you took will not be viable. The investment that you have made will not be enough. Everything will have been eaten by inflation. How are we going to be different from ordinary Kenyans who are suffering? Those issues must be addressed. There are particular cartels that are benefiting from this. I want to urge those of us who are in Government and all of us as responsible citizens to stand firm and protect public investments. That is the only way we can have an effective and properly managed country that is going to meet the test of one of the key regional economic hubs. It is not only fair to say theoretically that Kenya is an economic hub. That must be demonstrated by action. Two or three years ago, our biggest trading partner was Uganda. Today, they have overtaken us. Four or five years ago, Tanzania was a reluctant member of the East African Community. Today, it is at the fore-front. The reason is because they have more to benefit from Kenya and they want to use that. The roles have reversed. Those issues must be addressed if you really want to remain an infrastructural hub, an The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

economic hub, a diplomatic hub, a humanitarian hub, a security hub and a tourism hub. Who is going to address those issues? It is us the leaders. Unless we bring those incidences of corruption, abuse of offices and wastages to an end, whatever good things we can say, on the face of it, we will just remain a “paper tiger”. For those of us who have had an opportunity to visit Malaysia--- If you visit Malaysia – and I want to urge many hon. Members to visit Malaysia - if you talk about public investment; if you talk about public accounts; if you talk about benchmarking, what they will do is go back to the archives and give you a paper that they borrowed from Kenya in the 1980s. They are very diplomatic. They will tell you that it is theirs but they will say: “Do you know at one time we have had very brilliant economists in Kenya and this is what we borrowed?” You will be ashamed. If you go to Uganda today; if you go to Botswana or if you go to Ghana, some of the best brains being used by those countries are Kenyans. I do not know whether many hon. Members know that some of the best technocrats in Botswana are Kenyans. The best technocrats, the best architects and the best BSCs are Kenyans. If you go to South Africa today, almost half of the universities are being headed by Kenyan professors. If you go to United Kingdom, it is the same. Why is the same not functioning at home here? It is simply because either we are not giving them incentives or we are engaged in a state of deceptive culture. That is why we cannot be an ever-complaining nation. Those issues must be addressed. I want to urge all the hon. Members here to stand firm, remain united and face the evils affecting this country. That is the only way we can be proud Kenyans. The other issue was the arbitrary directives that we used to call “road-side directives”. One of the institutions affected here was the Kenya Pipeline Corporation in their pursuit of having their headquarters. It is a State corporation and yet, the Permanent Secretary (PS) in charge of that Ministry gave an arbitrary directive that flouted the very basic procurement rule. One of the recommendations of PIC in the 17th Report is to investigate the circumstances under which the PS interfered with the workings of an independent State corporation. The other recommendation is that another State corporation usurped its powers and did not use its mandate properly. The staff paid themselves allowances. Those corporations are listed and, therefore, the recommendation is that the Chief Executive Officer of that particular corporation should also be held accountable. Another highlight of this Report is how the Kenya Ferry Services (KFS) has been managed. KFS is one of the key infrastructural hub that links the South Coast with the North Coast. The management has been very poor. Some of the recommendations here are that, that institution has not been managed well and, therefore, the management of KFS should re-invest and ensure that we have a viable institution. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, this 17th Report is talking about investments in land. You realise that many corporations were buying land beyond their means. This was one of the avenues of corruption either to enrich a cartel or ensure that land belonging to public entity is sold at a throw-away price. I think this is no more but the practice has been there and that is why it is being reported. The other issue is that a key institution in the health sector like Kenya Medical Training College (KMTC) has had issues with its own land. Therefore, the recommendation is that some of the pieces of land that have been grabbed from that The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

entity all over the country should be reverted back to KMTC. There are over 30 training institutions. The other one is Kenyatta University, which is one of the key institutions in the country. Part of Kenyatta University’s land has been grabbed and the Public Investments Committee (PIC) recommends that the Government puts in place measures to recover all the land totaling over 38.8 acres, which were stolen from that institution. All this is clearly documented and Kenyatta University, being a key educational institution, I think we should be prepared to assist it. I want to take this opportunity to commend hon. Members for the good work they did in producing this 17th Report. That is because it is not an easy job to deal with historical issues, some of them dating back to 1988. Who do you call? How do you interrogate the issues and the players have changed? This is the scenario and that is why the current PIC is struggling to ensure that, by the time our term comes to an end, we will have cleared the backlog and we will just be dealing with current issues the way the indomitable hon. Bonny Khalwale did for Public Accounts Committee (PAC) in the last Parliament. That is why today, for those who are members of PAC, I think you are enjoying because you are only dealing with current issues. For those of us who are in PIC, I can assure you that some of our Reports date back to 1988. With those, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker I beg to move and ask hon. Serem to second. I hope we can do the same within the remaining time so that we deal with other issues.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Hon. Serem to second. Put your card in the intervention box, hon. Member. That is because I cannot see you in the system.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I want to second this Motion by first making an observation after going through those Reports. I may be one of the lucky Kenyans who got an opportunity to study in the United States of America and I want to share my expertise with the House. The Government should not be engaging itself in business. It should, instead, give that opportunity to Kenyans. Imagine it is even in the business of having grocery stores! What is the Government doing by engaging itself in Uchumi Supermarkets? It should just leave those businesses to competitive guys who have the know-how. Look at the hospitals that we have here; they are poorly run. There is nothing in there. The rates and charges are the same as those of private institutions. In my observation, I looked at it and felt that the Government should not actually engage itself in expanding itself. It should instead be reducing its commitments in terms of investments and allow Kenyans to do business. That is because it is actually failing. If you look at this Report and others, you will see that we are actually failing. In almost 90 per cent of Government parastatals, the executive officers are busy looting. For us to save this country, the Government should move away from business and leave entrepreneurs to do it. If you look at the acreages, and I wish the Chairman could have touched on this, a lot has been looted from Government institutions. I am a neighbour to Miwani Sugar Factory and Chemelil Sugar Factory and I even have farmers that grow sugarcane in my constituency. I tell you it is a disaster. This business where the Government engages itself The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

in is something that we have to look into. There is a sugar factory called Kibos, just a few kilometres away from Miwani Sugar Factory.

I am telling you for free that those guys are succeeding. The Government is failing and we are failing our own people. The Government should sell all this property to Kenyans, so that they can do business and the Government moves away.

We had mentioned about few institutions. The Chairman had mentioned earlier the Kenya Airways and Telkom. Safaricom ran away with the business and Telkom collapsed. We have so many Kenyans out there who have not received their pensions. Whenever I go home, they ask me to ask Parliament to see what it can do so that they can be paid. We know who the owners are. We are not the owners. We gave out the prime property in this country. Telkom sits on prime land in this country and yet, we are not the owners. We are just watching. If you look at the Kenya Railways land across Haile Selassie Avenue, we are not the ones in charge. Something has to be done.

I beg to second.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu)

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I wanted to contribute to the earlier Motion but since it has already passed, I decided to keep my request on.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, yes, but in very few words. I would like to, first of all, congratulate the Committee, which put this Report together. I was expecting hon. Keynan to speak longer than 20 minutes because he had a total of 60 minutes. When I had a brief chance of looking into this voluminous Report, I was quite surprised with the volume of work that has been put into the two Reports. I had the opportunity of going through the Telkom and Kenya Roads Authority Reports. The results were very shocking and damning, to say the least. For that, I was also hoping that more Members of Parliament would sit in to hear when hon. Keynan would be speaking. He has more knowledge in this field than anybody else. I would like to reiterate what hon. Keynan has said; we need to find out the source of the problem. If the 11th Parliament does not find the source of the problem and a cure for the problem, we will not be doing our country any justice. From that point of view, those two Reports are among the most important Reports that Members have produced. It is evidence of one of the roles that we, as Members, should perform. This is the role of oversight, which is very important. We should be able to give a reply to the citizens of our country on the status of projects and many other issues. .

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu)