Hon. Members, we do not have quorum. I order that the Division Bell be rung for ten minutes .

Hon. Members, we now have quorum.

Order, Members who are standing! You cannot be all standing at the same time. The business appearing as No.8 on the Order Paper, debate on that Bill was concluded yesterday in the morning, being a Private Members’ day. What remains is for the Question to be put and I proceed to do so.

THE SECURITY LAWS (AMENDMENT) BILL The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

The Mover is absent and not desiring to be present. There is a place for interventions. For all these hon. Members who have put in requests, are they interventions or requests to contribute? The time can only come after the Bill has been moved, seconded and then proposed. There is no Mover. There being no Mover---

Hon. Speaker, I was requesting, in the absence of the Mover, if I could be allowed to move.

No, you cannot. Read your Standing Orders properly. This is not like a village fundraising function where a chief guest may be replaced by others. Yes hon. Chepkong’a.

Thank you, hon. Speaker. In accordance with the Standing Orders, I am requesting that you rearrange it so that we deal with the Law Society (Amendment) Bill. Once we finish it, then we come back to the Security Laws Bill. Thank you.

Very well. Since the Mover is not there, we move to the next Order. Hon. Members, the business to be transacted is the one appearing as No.10 on the Order Paper. Therefore, the House goes into Committee of the whole House.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Members, we are now in Committee of the whole House. Hon. A.B. Duale, please let us have some order so that we go to the next business. Hon. Members, the amendments to the Law Society of Kenya Bill, National Assembly Bill No. 25, 2013, are currently being circulated.

Leader of Majority Party, please help me get the House in order. Hon. Katoo, please come to where the Chair is.

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I am going for the vetting of hon. Nkaissery because I am a Member of the Committee on Appointments. I will ask the Chair of Justice and Legal Affairs Committee, hon. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Chepkong’a, to move the amendments. He is a member of the relevant Committee that takes care of this Bill; therefore, he can stand in for me.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): You are supposed to be the Mover, but you are saying that hon. Chepkong’a moves the amendments for you. What is it, hon. Chepkong’a?

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. The Leader of Majority Party has defaulted the moving of the Bill in the Third Reading. As the Chair of Justice and Legal Affairs Committee, we are the ones who are carrying the amendments. The amendments are from the Committee; they are not from the Leader of Majority Party. He does not have any amendments.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Therefore, you can then move.

Yes

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Members, we are now going to consider the Law Society of Kenya Bill.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 7 of the Bill be amended in sub clause (2) by deleting the words “suspended or whose name has been struck off the Role of Advocates shall not be a member of the Society during the period of suspension or” and substituting therefor the words “whose name has been struck off the Roll of Advocates shall not be a member of the Society during the period of” The reason we are doing that is to align it with the Advocates Act itself. The words that were used were inconsistent with the Advocates Act. So, we are just cleaning it. What we are seeking to do is to delete the words appearing in Clause 7 “suspended or whose name has been struck off the Role of Advocates” and substituting therefore the words “whose name has been struck off the Roll of Advocates shall not be a member of the Society during the period of”. That is all we are seeking to introduce in accordance with what is contained in the Advocates Act. It is important to have correct language that is similar to what is in the Advocates Act. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I---

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Ng’ongo, I am sure today you do not want to see the outside of this door through the Serjeant-at-Arms. So, please do not direct my work. Hon. Gichigi, the Floor is yours. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. The purpose of this proposed amendment, which I support, is to ensure that a person who is suspended loses enjoying rights of membership, but a suspension itself does not remove somebody from being a member of this Society. You are just stopped from enjoying those rights. So, it is an apt amendment.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I beg to move:-

THAT, Clause 13 of the Bill be amended- (a) by deleting sub clause (1) and substituting therefor the following clause- (1) Any member of the Society, other than an honorary member, may be suspended or expelled from the Society upon such grounds as are set out in the Advocates Act. (b) by deleting the full stop at the end of sub clause (3) and substituting therefore the words ‘and shall be subject to section 81 of the Advocates Act”; (c) by inserting a new sub clause immediately after sub clause (3) as follows- (4) A person who has been expelled from membership of the Society shall not be re-admitted as a member of the Society without the authority of a special resolution. The reason why we are seeking to have those amendments is to ensure---

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. (Ms.) Nyasuna and hon. (Ms.) Khamisi, please take your seats. You can consult while seated. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, as you can see, they are all County Women Representatives and they are talking about table banking.

We are seeking that those members who are honorary members should not be expelled. Only those who are members of the Society should be expelled, the others are not practising members. So, we want to bring that distinction fairly clear.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Nyasuna, are you a point of order?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, yes I wanted to take issue with the Chair of Justice and Legal Affairs Committee. We are hon. Members of this House. We speak about laws; the Law Society of Kenya and many others. Do not reduce us to table banking! Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I would like through your order, the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs Committee to apologise and withdraw that statement. Thank you.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Please hon. Chepkong’a, do it quickly and move on with what you are supposed to concentrate on.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, as you know, they were holding an illegal meeting.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Chepkong’a, withdraw and apologise and go on with what you are supposed to be doing.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I sincerely want to apologise to the very imminent ladies, hon. Members because you know table banking is very important. It has got nothing to do with them.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Chepkong’a, that is not what is on the Order Paper. I do not know whether I should call back hon. A. B. Duale so that he---

I have withdrawn and apologised, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Had you finished moving?

Yes, I had finished.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Okay.

Hon. Mbadi, are you on a point of order or you want to contribute to this?

No, I wanted to (inaudible)

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): That is already done. Have you put your intervention, hon. Gichigi?

I would want clarification from the Chair on whether he is moving all the amendments on the Order Paper or just one. Is he moving Clause 13 (a)(b) and (c), The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

all of them? I want to understand what happens to member who fails to become honorary, who loses the right to continue being a member because of bad conduct. What happens?

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Chepkong’a, why do you not answer that before we put the Question?

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. An honorary member is honoured by the Society, not for the purposes of practising. So, there is no way he can bring disrepute to the Society just merely by being a member. If he is a member of the Society just by virtue of having been honoured, he does not practise as a lawyer. What we are dealing with here are instances when advocates can be expelled and not honorary members.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Are you convinced hon. Gichigi?

A little bit.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): If you want to speak, let everybody be part of the conversation or no conversation at all.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): We have an amendment from hon. Aduma. Do I see him here? He is the only one who had an amendment. He is not here. Hon. Members, that amendment will therefore be dropped because I do not see the Member who had wanted to amend it.

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Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 17 of the Bill be amended in sub clause (2) by deleting the full stop at the end of paragraph (c) and substituting therefor the words “one of whom shall be an advocate of at least 25 years standing.” We are seeking that one of the members to be elected to the Council of the Law Society of Kenya (LSK), should include a person who has been practising for at least 25 years. The reason being we have a serious problem with the LSK Council. It has only elected very young people and so at times we run into problems because of the exclusion of senior counsel who want to provide wisdom in times of crisis and so we lose out on that experience. As you know, you cannot teach experience, but you only acquire it over time. So, we are seeking that Clause 17 (c) be amended to provide that a person who has practised for at least 25 years should be one of those who would be elected to the Council. Thank you.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Aduma, again has an amendment but I do not see him in the House. Therefore, we will drop the amendment.

Thank you hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 18 of the Bill be amended in sub clause (1) by deleting paragraph (b) and substituting therefor the following new paragraph- (b) is qualified to be a Judge of the Supreme Court. We are seeking that one of the requirements for a person to be elected as President or the Vice President of LSK should not be only a practising advocate of at least seven years, but must be a person who is qualified to be a Judge of the Supreme Court. This is a very important position. It guides the entire legal profession and so it The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

should not be left to a person who is not qualified as a Judge of the Supreme Court. It is a very important amendment. Thank you.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): I see hon. Millie Odhiambo.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I wish to oppose that proposed amendment because what is contained in the Bill is an advocate who has practised for at least seven years. By the time you have practised for seven years, you are very ably qualified. I practised for less than seven years and I was very brilliant. I do not see why you want to inhibit growth of young advocates. So, I oppose.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Ali Rasso.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I also rise to oppose that because if you are going to place the threshold very high, then it means it will affect those who qualify to be Judges of the High Court or the Court of Appeal. That will lock out many able men and women who are practising. Therefore, the Chair must explain further why they have placed the threshold that high. Thank you.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Chair, why do you not explain that issue before I put the Question?

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. The amendments that we are proposing are with the concurrence of the LSK itself. We conducted public participation in which the LSK participated. One of the things that we looked at is the general trend within the African continent and globally. We found that the persons who ordinarily hold the position of President or Vice President are senior persons. They are not necessarily persons who have just practised for about seven years. They also conceded and admitted that whenever they attend international fora they are always viewed as too young in the profession compared to their peers, particularly within the African continent. So, they also admitted that it should be a person who is qualified to be a Judge of the Supreme Court, which is ordinarily 15 years.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Okay. I believe that. Yes hon. Millie Odhiambo.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I just wanted the Chair to clarify. Of course, I disagree with him. One of the strengths of the Kenyan Parliament is that when we go out, people are so impressed at how young the Kenyan Parliament is. It is not a negative, but a positive. If you look at this amendment, it says that a person is eligible for election as a President or Vice President if the person is a member or former member of the Council. So, it is saying that you must be a member or a former member and you must, on top of that, have practised for 15 years. I want to look at the Council even as currently constituted, what you may be doing without noticing is that you are only telling us that about three or four people will be qualifying. That is not competitive at all. You are making this a preserve of a very few people by putting the word “and”. I would want to ask the Chair whether they considered putting the word “or” instead of “and”, so that it is The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

not just one. You are limiting the number of people who can be eligible. For instance, by putting the “Council and”, I cannot be President neither can I be Vice President even though I have practised for 15 years. Why are you limiting the number of people who can be President or Vice President?

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Thank you, hon. Millie. Let us have the Member for Kipipiri and that will be the last intervention.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I also reluctantly oppose this amendment. This is a Society, which has an open membership. It is not a statutory body as such. It is people who contribute and give their money. They do not rely on public coffers. Why do you want to stop them from electing the person they want, even if that person is young? I have no alternative, but to oppose this particular amendment.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): What is your point of order, hon. Chepkong’a?

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. In the spirit of consensus, I concede to the proposal by hon. Millie, that I introduce a further amendment. THAT, Clause 18 be amended by including the word “or” and deleting the word “and”. This will take care of all those opinions and views that have been expressed in the House. It appears that it sits well also with hon. Millie.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 19 of the Bill be amended by deleting paragraph (d) and substituting therefor the following new paragraph- (d) conducted on the same day by members physically present. We are proposing, as a Committee, that Clause 19 be amended by providing what needs to be done while the Vice President and President are being elected. This includes an amendment to 19(d) to provide “conducted on the same day by members physically present.” The election of the President and Vice President should be conducted on the same day by the members who are present. It should not be taken to another day. They should be done simultaneously.

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 20 and substituting therefor the following new clause- 20. The elections for the membership of the Council shall be conducted by such body as the Council may propose and approved by the general meeting preceding the election. This clause should be amended to remove the express participation of the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (IEBC). We propose to delete the IEBC as a body expressly mentioned, so that it gives leeway to the general membership to determine which body, including the IEBC itself, can conduct elections. Article 88(4) of the Constitution provides that the IEBC shall conduct, upon request, all elections of statutory bodies. That should not be put here, so that it gives the membership an opportunity to determine which body can conduct elections. They can decide that they are going to elect senior counsel to conduct elections. It is incumbent upon the Society to make a determination of who should conduct the election and not necessarily what is provided here expressly.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I wish to oppose the amendment. This is the legal institution of this land. They have told us that they believe in an independent body and at the same time, they are coming to this House to tell us that they can choose who can conduct their elections. You cannot have your cake and eat it. They have said that they want transparent and fair elections in the previous section. It cannot be that now they want their elections to be conducted by a body the membership will choose; is not a fair law.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I wish to support that amendment. The reasoning here is that you give the Law Society of Kenya the freedom to choose who to conduct their elections. In any event, the IEBC has a different mandate and can only be engaged on private basis by the Law Society of Kenya. We cannot cast it in law that the Law Society of Kenya has to engage the IEBC in the conduct of their elections. We need to give them freedom to choose who their arbiter would be in any event. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I would have preferred that we retain what is in Clause 20 with the addition of the words “and as approved by the general meeting preceding the election”. That is actually what they have done. Even by not mentioning the IEBC, you have still imported it in your new amendment. I do not know why the Law Society of Kenya would be averse to using the IEBC. Even though the IEBC is not good, it is better than nothing. It is a better means of conducting smaller elections like the ones for the Law Society of Kenya. I would want to persuade the Chair, if we could consider putting those words. What you have basically done is not to mention the IEBC, but you have not precluded it being used. The new amendment that you have provided is “to be approved by the general meeting preceding the election”, which means you are taking the authority from the Council to the Annual General Meeting (AGM). The Chair would consider doing that amendment.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I wish to persuade the hon. Members present in this House to support this particular amendment. Please, remember this is a society; it is not the elections of a parastatal. We have a challenge when you say they must do single sourcing. If you restrict the body to conduct elections to the IEBC, then they say they want Kshs.1billion from the Law Society of Kenya (LSK), you are actually saying they cannot go elsewhere. They are using members’ money; not public money. I would want to persuade my colleagues to support this particular amendment.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh)

Thank you hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady I beg to move:-

THAT clause 22 of the Bill be amended in sub clause (1)- (a) by deleting paragraph(b) and substituting therefor the following new paragraph- The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

(b) suspension or expulsion as provided under the Act. (b) by deleting paragraph (d) and substituting therefor the following new paragraph- (c) failure to attend four consecutive council meetings. (c) by deleting paragraph (e). We are proposing that the instances of expulsion be enlarged to include failure to attend four consecutive Council meetings by the President and the Council members. If they fail to attend at least four consecutive meetings, they cease to be effective. If you have failed four times, it means you have no interest in the work of the Society. So, you should not continue to sit in the Council. So, we are proposing that an addition to failure to attend four consecutive Council meetings be included.

Can I seek clarification, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady? When you say failure to attend four consecutive Council meetings and you do not bring a proviso to exempt those who are sick, or one who has sought permission are you being fair? I propose that you amend it further so that one can be excused for reasons acceptable by the Council itself. You can be sick or you can be out of the country for further studies or something

(hon. (Ms.) Shebesh)

I support what he is saying. That we add ‘without apology’ maybe.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. Again, hon. Members are very wise and they have hawk eyes. I wish to propose that Clause 22 be further amended to read as follows:- ‘failure to attend four consecutive council meetings without authority from the council.’

(hon. (Ms.) Shebesh)

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. That is what I was seeking clarification on. When you say “without authority”, I can be sick and I am not given authority. It is the same problem we are facing here in Parliament now. I would want to suggest that we use “without reasonable grounds” instead of saying “without authority.” If I am sick, then it is a reasonable ground. If I have suffered a loss or have somebody deceased, it is a reasonable ground. So I am persuading the Chair that we say “without reasonable ground”.

(hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): So, you will read it as you would want it to be.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady

That is okay with me.

Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move;- THAT, Clause 23 of the Bill be amended in sub clause (3) by deleting the words ‘co-opt persons who are not members’ and substituting therefor the words ‘engage any person who is not by resolution a member’. The reason being, “co-option” is different from engaging a person. What we are seeking to do is make it very clear that we are not co-opting people into the Council but we are engaging consultants for purposes of performing a particular task that the members cannot do. So, we want to make it very clear that it is not co-option of members to the Council but to engage persons who are only competent in the task that is ahead.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move;- THAT, Clause 24 of the Bill be amended by deleting sub clause (3). The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

We are seeking for deletion of sub clause 3, which reads as follows:- “The council may, from time to time, amend the schedule to alter the centers comprising each branch.” This is provided in law. We do not want the council to amend it. If it is something that has been passed by Parliament, we cannot consider substantive law being amended by the council. We do not want to give power to the council to amend a substantive law.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh)

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I beg to move:- THAT Clause 26 of the Bill be amended- (a) in sub clause (4)- (i) by inserting the word ‘as’ immediately after the word ‘appointment’; (ii) by deleting paragraph(b) and substituting therefor the following new paragraph- (b) meets the requirements of Chapter Six of the Constitution. (b) in sub clause 6 by deleting the words “neglect” appearing in paragraph (e) and substituting therefor the words “desertion”. On this one again, we are just cleaning. This is just purely a grammatical thing. The other amendment that we are seeking is to delete the requirement of Certified Public Secretaries (CPS) qualification for the secretary of the Society. The CPS qualification should not be included here but instead we have introduced that such a person must meet the requirements of Chapter Six of the Constitution. As you know, for you to be an advocate, you do not need to be a Certified Public Secretary. For you to be appointed as a CEO of the Law Society of Kenya, you do not require to have CPS qualification because you are not managing the Institute of Certified Public Secretaries of Kenya (ICPSK). So, that should not be a requirement; it is a The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

requirement for a different body. So, the requirement should be that one meets the requirements of Chapter Six, so that anyone who is appointed to statutory body---

(hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Your point is made.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I think you are addressing two different issues. In one case, you are addressing technical competence but when you talk of Chapter Six, you are talking more of issues of integrity. I do not know whether the Society expects any level of competence in the secretary who is running the affairs or all that they require is somebody of integrity. If I were a lawyer, I would have insisted that this be there because this is--- In fact you need both; a technically qualified person to run it and also a person of integrity. So, I would oppose that amendment because it gives more competence. The LSK is a very important society in this country performing very important duties. So, I would oppose that.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Wandayi, again are you on this?

No, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

(hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): So please remove your card. Hon. Gichigi, are you for this?

Yes. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I will support this particular amendment. Anybody who is aware of qualification of CPS will agree with me that it is just an issue of taking minutes. The job that is given to the secretary here is not a secretarial one; he is a Chief Executive Officer. We are just using the word “secretary” for purposes of a CEO. Since this is a society of advocates, the necessary qualification is simply an advocate with proper experience. It is not just an issue of taking minutes, which is really clerical as it were. I urge hon. Members to support this amendment.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Chepkong’a, do you have anything to add?

Nothing.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Is hon. Owuor still not in the House? I drop that amendment as well.

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(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Can we have some order? Can we have people concentrating, especially the Mover?

Thank you, the Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT Clause 28 of the Bill be amended in sub clause (2)- (a) by inserting the words ‘and evaluation’ immediately after the word ‘receipt’ appearing in paragraph (b); (b) by inserting the words ‘legislation’ immediately after the word ‘issues’ appearing in paragraph (d) These are directorates which are being created or heads of divisions within the LSK. We are saying that the departments, particularly this one dealing with compliance and ethics, should not only receive complaints but should also evaluate those complaints. So, in addition to receipt of complaints, it should also include evaluation of the complaints. Secondly, with regard to part “(d)”, the directorate of public interest should also deal with issues of legislation. It should not only be issues and litigation but should also include legislation because one of the functions of the LSK is to support Government in making legislation. Thank you.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Aden.

No, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I beg to move:- The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

THAT, Clause 31 of the Bill be amended in sub clause (2) by inserting the word ‘in’ immediately after the word ‘be’ appearing in paragraph (a). It is just pure grammatical error that was created maybe in drafting of the Bill. It should read as follows: “The notice requisition in a special general meeting under subsection 1(a) shall be in writing.” Instead of “be writing”, it should be “in writing.” Thank you.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): There is another amendment by hon. Owuor, but he is still not in the House. Therefore, I drop that amendment.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 36 of the Bill be amended by deleting sub clause (2). We are just cleaning that. Clause 36(2) is already provided for in Clause 31(1)(b) of the Bill. So, this is just superfluous. It ought not to be there.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. Again we are just cleaning the Bill. I beg to move:- The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

THAT Clause 38 of the Bill be amended in sub clause (1) by deleting the word ‘on’ immediately after the words ‘audited as’ and inserting the word ‘of’ Thank you.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 41 of the Bill be amended by deleting the word ‘to’ appearing immediately after the words ‘Act and’ and substituting therefor the word ‘with’. That was just a small correction there. Let me mention this for the benefit of Members; all regulations that will be made by the Council must be brought to the House and they will be examined by the Committee on Delegated Legislation.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Gichigi. Let me first propose.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I am inquiring from the Chair if it would not be wise to subject the regulations to a general meeting before they are enacted even if they will later come before the relevant Committee of the House. Should we just leave it to the Council and the Committee on Delegated Legislation or should the members, first of all, examine them before they are brought here? Perhaps, he can consider putting that particular further amendment.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Chepkong’a, would you like to respond to that? Let me take hon. Mulu?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, let me make a clarification so that he can respond.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Chepkong’a is already on his feet. Let him go first. I will come to you, hon. Mulu.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, hon. Gichigi has just missed the sentence. My proposed amendment was to delete the word “to” and replace with the words “with the approval”, so that all regulations, which will be made by the Council shall be subjected to the approval of the members. It reads as follows:- “and the Council may, subject to the provisions of this Act”, which will require that they bring The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

them to the House; “and with the approval by a resolution of members make regulations”. So, the regulations must be approved by the members.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I just wanted to follow up on what the Chair has said, so that I can get it right. Is he saying that the regulations will have to come to this House? I just wanted to get a clarification. Would it be in order that societies bring their regulations to the House to be approved? We have so many societies. That clarification is important.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. Other than the Law Society being a society, it is also a statutory body created by an Act of Parliament. If they make any regulations, it is incumbent upon them as required by the Interpretation Act, to bring the regulations before the Committee on Delegated Legislation for purposes of being examined, so that we can consider whether they are in line with the substantive Act.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Chepkong’a, do you have an amendment or you are dropping the amendment?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended- (a) in the item relating to North Rift Branch- (i) by deleting the word “Nandi”; (ii) by deleting the word “Pokot” and substituting therefor the word “Kapenguria”; (iii) by deleting the words “Elgeyo Marakwet”; (iv) by deleting the word “Turkana” and substituting therefor the word “Lodwar”; (v) by deleting the word “Trans-Nzoia” and substituting therefor the word ‘Kitale’ (b) in the item relating to Rift Valley Branch- (i) by deleting the word “Baringo” and substituting therefor the word “Kabarnet”; (ii) by deleting the word “Samburu” and substituting therefor the word ‘Maralal’ (c) in the item relating to West Kenya Branch by inserting the word “Vihiga” The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

The reason we are seeking the deletion of certain centres as referred to in the Law Society Bill is that some of them are tribal in nature. For instance, when you refer to Nandi Branch, it ought not to be Nandi Branch, but Kapsabet Branch. That is the headquarters of that particular region. Instead of referring to a branch as Pokot, which is a tribe, it should read “Kapenguria.” Instead of referring to a branch as Elgeyo Marakwet, we do not have a branch called “Elgeyo Marakwet”, but one based in Iten. Referring to a branch as Turkana instead of Lodwar is tribal. We are eliminating those words that are tribal in nature.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Makali Mulu.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, with the explanation the Chair has given, it is right. When you say “Lodwar”, I was wondering whether the Chair would mind amending it to Turkana County Branch or something like that rather than just Lodwar. Lodwar is just a town. I do not know whether bringing the word “county” would have helped other than just basing it as a tribe.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I support that. In view of what my colleague is saying, advocates normally operate from towns where there are courts. They do not operate as a county or as a certain region. It is actually towns where the courts are based. So, what the Chair is proposing to do is correct.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): The Member for Turkana East, do you want to speak on this? I am sorry your name is a bit tricky. How do you pronounce your last name? I want to be able to use your name. I know Nicholas, it is written here, but how do you pronounce the other one?

How does it read there?

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): It is reading Ngikor.

Just read it the way it is. I wanted to support the Chair on what he said on the issue of naming. When we talk of Turkana, Pokot or Marakwet, it is good to use the names of towns, so that it does not look like we are just talking about tribes. So, it is good to say “Lodwar, Kapenguria” and “Eldoret.”

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon Chepkong’a, are you listening? Hon. Regina Ndambuki, please, let the Chair listen. Did you hear him to the end?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, in fact, I gave the clarification and I was supported by hon. Gichigi. If you look at the Schedule, all the other branches are referred to using the names of the towns. For instance, Eldoret, Kapsabet, Iten and the rest. If elections are conducted in those branches, they are conducted in a town and not in the entire county.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Have you made a further amendment?

No, no.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Ngikor, have you understood that there is no further amendment? Are you satisfied? Press the intervention button. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, it is good for this to be done the way it has been done in other towns. In some areas, he has mentioned the names of the counties and in others, he has mentioned the names of towns.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): You are supporting. Thank you.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady. I beg to move that the Committee doth report to the House its consideration of the Law Society of Kenya Bill (National Assembly Bill No.25 of 2013) and its approval thereof with amendments. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Let us have the Chair to report.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered the the Law Society of Kenya Bill (National Assembly Bill No.25 of 2013) and approved the same with amendments. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Let us have the Mover to move agreement with the report.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report. I also request hon. Njuki to second the Motion for agreement with the Report of the whole House. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

seconded.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Bowing is seconding. Thank you for seconding.

Let us have the Mover to move the Third Reading.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I beg to move that the Law Society of Kenya Bill (National Assembly Bill No.25 of 2013) be now read a Third Time. I also request hon. Njuki to second. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

seconded.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): He has bowed and that is seconding. Order, hon. Members!

Before I put the Question, let me give two people to make a comment. Do we have the quorum? Before I confirm about putting the Question, let me give the chance to hon. Member for Ol Jorok Constituency, hon. Waiganjo.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. The amendment we introduced this morning for the Law Society of Kenya is very important. Most of the proposed amendments came from the Law Society of Kenya itself. As a society of the legal fraternity in this country, the Law Society of Kenya needs us to make laws that will be in consonant with the spirit and the progress of that Society at this particular point in time. I am sure that what has gone through this House this morning will be of a lot of benefit to our legal fraternity. I hope that the Law Society of Kenya will continue representing the people of this country. As a way forward, it will take its place in the international community. Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Thank you. Member for Chuka/Igambang'ombe Constituency, hon. Njuki, you have the Floor.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for allowing me to add my voice to this Bill. The Law Society of Kenya takes care of the people who take care of the laws that we make in this country. Ensuring that their operations and Society is well structured to deal with their issues is a good thing. If we do so, we can actually have people who are level headed to apply justice in our laws and in the courts because they represent our people. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

With those few remarks, I support.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Order, hon. Members! This is the last one, at my discretion. Is hon. (Ms.) Odhiambo-Mabona in the House? Order, hon. Members! It is the mood of the House that I put the Question. Hon. Members, I am not in a position to put the Question for obvious reasons; we do not have quorum.

We are okay.

(Hon. (Ms.) Mbalu): Are you okay? The Speaker is not in a position to put the Question now. I order that the Question be deferred to the next sitting. Next Order!

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): I have seen numerous points of order. First of all I have to call upon the Mover, hon. Kamama to take the Floor.

I thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. First of all, I wish to apologise this morning, I was in a serious traffic jam.

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): On behalf of those who have raised points of order, let me listen to hon. John Mbadi. If you are not speaking on this, please remove your--- Do you have a point of order? What is it?

Although I expected you to start with my Secretary-General before you come to the Chair, I rise on a point of order because we are just about to debate a very important Bill. It is an omnibus Bill. The Constitution, in Article 118, is in line with previous rulings of the Chair regarding constitutionality, when debating matters that come before the House. If you go to Article 118 and specifically 118(1)(b) it states: “Parliament shall facilitate public participation and involvement in the legislative and other business of Parliament and its committees”. I am aware that Parliament did request the public to submit their views and this was done through adverts in the newspapers. The deadline of that was Monday, next week. Many members of the public are preparing to present their views to the Committee today and Monday.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Mbadi, just repeat what you said. What is it about Monday? The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I have just said that according to the advert put up by Parliament inviting public to present their views on this particular Bill, that deadline is Monday, next week. Therefore, the people of Kenya are preparing to submit their concerns, proposals and suggestions regarding this Bill, either today or even on Monday because from tomorrow up to Sunday, those will not be working days. If we continue to transact this Bill having invited the people of Kenya to present their views to the Committee by Monday and we go ahead with Second Reading, we are going to disadvantage a good section of the society of Kenya. Allow me to take you further on issues of constitutionality. The Chair had ruled, not even in this Parliament but previously, that when it comes to matters of constitutionality, a Member can raise it at any time. This is a ruling by hon. Kenneth Marende and even by hon. Justin Muturi, who has made this ruling before. On the Bill of Rights, Article 31 regarding privacy, that is a fundamental human right, protected by the Constitution. Further, the Bill of Rights, Article 34 on freedom of the media, it is a clearly protected right in the Constitution. Finally, Article 36 on freedom of association; the Bill of Rights is one of those chapters of the Constitution that are protected and for you to even amend them, you have to subject it to the people of Kenya in a referendum. If you look at this Bill carefully and I want you to look at the first page, you realize that this House is going to amend through the Public Order Act---

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Order, hon. Members! I know what you are agitating for. Hon. Mbadi, you are on a point of order, please do not pass the threshold of starting to debate on this particular Bill.

I am actually not debating the Bill, but our rules do not allow us to debate an unconstitutional Bill. How then would you determine that a Bill is unconstitutional without citing a few clauses in the Bill? This idea of people saying that you cannot debate the Bill, I am hearing it for the first time. Actually, I think it is informed by ignorance. A lot of times, and you can go through the HANSARD Reports - I urge the hon. Members who came in this Parliament recently to be reading HANSARD Reports. I think the problem is that we think we can learn without reading---

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Mbadi, please, this is not the time to lecture. Go to your points, which I will give you one more minute.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I have just mentioned various articles on the freedom of the media; the freedom to associate and the right of privacy. If there is any Bill introduced in this House which is going to alter or limit those freedoms, then that Bill is unconstitutional. Therefore, before we even move ahead to even allow debate, because moving a Motion is actually a debate-- The moment the Mover moves, it is already a debate. So, I would urge the Chair to make a ruling on this matter; and a careful ruling. This is a precedent. You need to make a considered ruling on this matter. If we allow---

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Your point has been made, hon. Mbadi.

If you allow this House to be debating unconstitutional Bills--- The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Mbadi, your point is made. Let me give hon. Junet the opportunity. I have not seen a point of order from the other side and that is why I have not given the Floor to anyone.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. I want to rise under Standing Order No. 127(3). It states:- “The Departmental Committee to which a Bill is committed shall facilitate public participation and shall take into account the views and recommendations of the public when the committee makes its report to the House”. These are our own Standing Orders, leave alone the constitutional issues that have been raised by hon. Mbadi, under Article 118. The new Constitution plus our Standing Orders emphasize the need for public participation. Indeed, Parliament advertised in the media; in two newspapers that have a wide circulation, that they want public participation for three days. The Chairman is here, they have only conducted public participation for one day only. This Bill---

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Nuh, Please listen to me.

I have only one issue to add.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Please, listen to me; do not try to talk over my voice. I am saying that the issue of public participation has been canvassed already by hon. Mbadi. So, please let us hear another point.

The other issue is that when you look at the face of this Bill, it is unconstitutional in the sense that----

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): That has also been canvassed.

It is negating many constitutional provisions. I want you to make a ruling on whether we need to do a constitutional amendment rather than doing an Act of Parliament. I want your ruling on that. This Act is amending the Constitution---

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Ababu Namwamba.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. We are a house of rules and we are also a house of records. This is why, indeed, we are called the honourable House and the august House. So that I am not accused of rising frivolously; I am rising specifically under Standing Order No. 47(3) which says: “If the Speaker is of the opinion that any proposed Motion- is contrary to the Constitution or an Act of Parliament, without expressly proposing appropriate amendment to the Constitution or the Act of Parliament; the Speaker may direct either that, the Motion is inadmissible, or that notice of it cannot be given without such alteration as the Speaker my approve or that the Motion be referred to the relevant Committee of the Assembly, pursuant to Article 114(2) of the Constitution.” Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, this point of order which I raise and which my colleague, hon. Mbadi and hon. Junet have ventilated upon, is a fundamental part of the procedures and, indeed, the integrity of this House. That is why this House has been called to respond and to deal with this matter of constitutionality. Only recently, on 25th September, 2013, the Chair made a ruling on a similar matter of constitutionality raised in The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

respect of the National Police Service (Amendment) Bill, 2013 and the National Police Service Commission (Amendment) Bill, 2013. Allow me, this being a House of records, to take the Chair back to the ruling on that respect on a similar matter raised in respect of the Constitution affecting a Bill submitted to this House. The Chair said the following:- “You will, however, recall that my predecessors have previously ruled on numerous other occasions, in the past, that notwithstanding the approval of any business by the Chair under the Standing Order, the issue of constitutionality can be raised by a Member at any stage of consideration of any business by the House. The request for consideration of the constitutionality of a particular business, however, must be specific. It is through being specific that the Chair is capacitated to revisit the issue”. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, this is a ruling of the Chair and the Chair is saying that when you are raising a matter of constitutionality to enable the Chair to consider the matter and rule, you must be specific and you must raise specific issues. Therefore, the attempt of my hon. colleagues to be specific is within the customs and the rulings of this House. The Chair then went on to say the following: “In conclusion, this House has set precedents on these matters; the matters of constitutionality. My predecessors have ruled that a question of constitutionality of a proposal before the Hose cannot be subjected to a vote but to the conscious decision of the Speaker” Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, therefore, that precedent has already been set by this House through rulings of the Chair; that the question of constitutionality can be raised at any stage and when it is raised, the Speaker is obligated to make a conscious considered decision on the matter. Two, the Chair has ruled previously on various occasions that in raising the question of constitutionality, the person raising must be specific. Allow me to be specific on this question of constitutionality in terms of the ruling of the Chair. Hon. Speaker, this Bill introduces or seeks to introduce matters which if even considered by this House would amount to this House itself breaching the vow that we took as hon. Members to defend and protect the Constitution of the Republic of Kenya. I will only cite three examples and I am doing so to fulfill the requirement in a previous ruling of the Chair; that when you raise a matter of constitutionality, you must be specific. Allow me to be specific. This Bill assaults core provisions of the Bill of Rights of our Constitution. It is an assault on the letter and spirit of the Bill of Rights that we have given unto ourselves as a people and we have vowed as a House to defend and protect. Number one---

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

I am on a point of order.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Gethenji, he is on a point of order, you can also raise yours after he has concluded.

Hon. Temporary Deputy, the first issue of constitutionality and I am being very specific, is Article 37 of the Constitution. The Article is on the freedom to assemble, demonstrate, picket and petition. The Constitution, without ambiguity, prevarication, or circumlocution specifically provides that every person has the right, The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

peaceably and unarmed to assemble, demonstrate, picket and present petitions to public authorities. The Act we are just about to debate in Section (4) of the amendment Act---

Be specific!

There is no other way to be specific, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. Hon. Gethenji should calm down. He will have an opportunity to respond to these specific issues. We do not want to engage in generalities because that is how impunity operates.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Ababu, continue.

Hon. Speakers, Section (4) of this Act says: “The Public Order Act is amended by inserting the following new section immediately after Section (5) - “The Cabinet Secretary may by notice in the Gazette designate the areas where, and times at which public meetings, gatherings and public processions may be held”.

Section (5) goes on to require that any person who unlawfully convinces, organizes or promotes a public rally, meeting or procession or neglects or refuses to comply with any law relating to public meetings commits an offence. It is my submission that the attempt to give the Cabinet Secretary arbitrary powers to determine when, where, how, in what form and the content of your speech at any public gathering is utterly a violation of Article 37 of the Constitution. Example number two, and I am being very specific is Article 29 of the Constitution. Article 29 of the Constitution is on freedom and security of the person and it provides: “Every person has the right to freedom and security of the person, which includes the right not to be- (a) deprived of freedom arbitrarily or without just cause”.

You are debating now.

I am not debating, I am raising specific issues. The good thing is that the Chair of the Security Committee can make all the noise but I have the ear of the Chair. No amount of heckling or grandstanding can diminish our fidelity to the Constitution of the Republic of Kenya. Nothing can subject the Constitution to ridicule or anything of that nature.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Ababu, please remain on course.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Section 18 of the Bill we are about to debate; Section 18 of this amendment Bill amounts to detention without trial through the back door. This section which is an outrage and an assault on Article 29 of the Constitution which guarantees the freedom, the liberty, the security of the person purports to grant a police officer the power to appear in court and arbitrarily, for reason which may be “cooked”. Someone my claim you are a terrorist now that we even have Chinese monitoring people and the Government saying that they have no idea how the Chinese have set up a cyber centre to monitor us. Someone may determine that you are a terrorist The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

arbitrarily with impunity and decide that you shall be held in detention, which is a violation of Article 29 of the Constitution. My final example is on Article 47 of the Constitution.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, taking note of the due transformation of the gender of the Chair, I refer you to Article 49 of the Constitution which is about rights of arrested persons. Sections 25 and 26 of the proposed Bill---

Order! Order, Members! Can we have some order so that we can listen to each other? Member for Budalangi, you are looking at Article 49?

I have referred you to Article 49 of the Constitution that guarantees certain rights to arrested persons.

Which sub-section are you looking at?

I was looking at the whole section on the rights of arrested persons.

I am submitting that Section 25 and Section 26 of this Amendment Bill which places restrictions on bail; the right to bail is a direct assault on the entitlements of arrested persons as protected by Article 49 of the Constitution. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, those are very specific examples and there are more examples. I want to submit that besides those very specific examples, I have linked sections of the Constitution; Section 18 of the Amendment Bill to Article 29 of the Constitution; Sections 25 and 26 of the Amendment Bill to Article 49 of the Constitution; and Sections 4 and 5 of the Amendment Bill to Article 37 of the Amendment Bill. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, it is my submission that having given those specific examples, I have fulfilled the requirement in the ruling of the Speaker that anybody raising the question of constitutionality must be specific in terms of the areas of the Constitution that have been violated. Besides those very specific provisions of the Constitution, this Bill also violates certain inalienable principles of the Constitution in both letter and spirit, including public participation; including the role of the Senate; the Senate must have a role in this Bill because it touches directly on the affairs of counties. But this Bill also touches on the procedures and customs of this House. It has been determined by this House through rulings and customs and traditions of this House that a Miscellaneous Amendment Bill, what we have traditionally baptized “omnibus Bill” cannot be a Bill that alters the character, content or nature of the parent Act, substantially. An omnibus Bill--- The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Member for Budalangi, you cannot go on and on.

I am concluding, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. In conclusion, let me say that we also do not have a report of the Committee here with us. Information reaching us, and this is subject to confirmation, is that the House Business Committee did not meet prior to scheduling the Business of today. It will be important to know if the House Business Committee did meet as required by Standing Order No.171---

No, hon. Member for Budalangi; you cannot proceed on rumours on an issue like House Business meeting. Those are facts. We will get information, so do not talk about rumours on this.

Let me conclude. Hon. colleagues, this is a historic moment. We, as a House, are seized of an opportunity to demonstrate our fidelity to the Constitution of this Republic. So, as you shout and seek to be influenced, may I remind you that even Nazi German had cheerleaders. In the aftermath of Nazi German, Martin Niemoller had the grace to say: “First they came for the socialists and I said nothing because I was not a socialist; then they came for trade unionists but I said nothing because I was not a trade unionists; but when they finally came for me, there was nothing to speak to”---

Order! Member for Budalangi, I am on my feet. Freeze all of you and sit down. Before you raise your point of order, let us have some order in the Chamber. That is not negotiable, that we will have order in the Chamber. Now, do not filibuster; let us now discuss and debate on law, facts and on things that concern the nation. Forget about filibustering because we do not have time for it. Now, several Members have spoken to this subject, I have here hon. Mbadi who has spoken; I have hon. Junet who has spoken and I have hon. Ababu Namwamba who has spoken. You remember that these are ventilations. Before the Bill was moved, we allowed you so that we can feel the mood of the House, but in itself it does not go into the merit or the substance of the Bill itself. So, I will have some more ventilation from my right side.

Hon. Junet, the last time I checked you were not the Chair of the National Assembly. I recognize the Member for Gatundu South.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. What we are witnessing in this House is an attempt by the likes of the new Secretary General of ODM to kill this debate before it starts. Members of the other side will have a chance to be heard during the substantive debate. The issue of constitutionality is an issue that may differ on interpretation between one Member and another Member. You cannot, behind your assumed competence on matters of Constitution, be allowed to kill a debate before it starts. The hon. Ababu Namwamba is a Member of the House Business Committee.

No!

He is a Member of the relevant Committee.

Order! Member for Gatundu South! Member for Gatundu South, you are addressing the Speaker of the National The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Assembly. You do not address Members across the Floor. Do what you must do and address the National Assembly, not Members across the Floor. Proceed.

It is my contention that this House now needs to expeditiously give the Mover of this Motion a chance to move and everybody else will get a chance to debate this Motion. Thank you.

Alright, where is the Chair? Where is the relevant Chair?

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

You cannot have a point of order when the Speaker is trying to create some order in the House. The same order you are crying about does not exist in the Chamber. Member for Ol jorok.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me the opportunity to ventilate on this very important Bill. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, this is a very important Bill and the fact of the matter is that this House has been urging the Executive to move quickly and take care of the country’s security. Unfortunately, that cannot be done without an appropriate legal framework. So, what this House is trying to do is take its constitutional mandate; to legislate in order to take care of the security of this country. As this country does that, therefore, we are cognizant of the fact that we are also one arm of Government. Every arm of Government has its own role to play. The Executive has a role to take care of the security of this country; this House is an arm of Government---

But even as you are speaking, please help us in discussing those issues that have come as a matter---

I am moving there. I will go straight to the point, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

Go there directly.

I have looked at this Bill and realized that this is an omnibus Bill. It does not come entirely as a Bill under the Committee on Administration and National Security. It also involves other committees. For instance, it has amendments to the Penal Code; Criminal Procedure Code and Evidence Act. Those Committees have not had time to look into the specifics of this Bill. Therefore, even as important as this Bill is, I think we need to subject it to the Administration and National Security Committee, Defence and Foreign Relations Committee; Justice and Legal Affairs Committee; Labour and Social Welfare Committee and even Transport, Public Works and Housing Committee. If we proceed with this Bill as it is, these Committees will not have opportunity to look at it. It is an important Bill but let us debate it at the point where we should. I think it has come before the Floor of the House before its time. My submission is that it is prematurely before the House and I would urge the Chairman of the Administration and National Security Committee to withdraw it and re-introduce it after the other Committees have gone through it.

Alright, well said. The last one will be the Member for Nairobi County.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I do not want to go into the substance of it, but on the face of it, from what my colleague has just spoken about, I The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

think in the Speaker’s ruling we will need to know which processes were followed. It has been raised by that side and it will be raised in this side, for me, I have always believed in Committee reports. Committee reports minimize the work that we do on the Floor. They give us guarantee. We will be going to its Third Reading where amendments are brought. I would seek the indulgence of this House that we either have the Committee look at it or by consensus we agree that we will be bringing amendments to this Bill so that we can also move on. Amendments are allowed and amendments can be brought to the Floor of this House by the end of the day. Thank you.

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

Member for Ugunja, there cannot be anything out of order. You could just be raising ventilation. We are not going to go that way. We cannot have intervention take the place of debate in the Assembly. You cannot replace intervention with debate. Member for Tongaren, just because you are a ranking Member, I will allow you to address a specific issue on the order.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I stand on Standing Order Nos.47, 119 and 127. Standing Order No.47 (3) (1) states: “If the Speaker is of the opinion that any proposed Motion- (a) is one which infringes, or the debate on which is likely to infringe, any of these Standing Orders---” That Motion should not proceed. The debate on this Motion will infringe on the Standing Order. Standing Order No. 119 clearly states: “Every Bill that contains a provision limiting a right or fundamental freedom in terms of Article (24(2) of the Constitution shall contain separate and distinct provisions- (a) clearly expressing the specific right or fundamental freedom to be limited; and (b) the nature and extent of that limitation” So, it is not right for us to debate it. Standing Order 127(5) says: “If for any reason, at the commencement of the Second Reading the report of the Committee has not been---”

We have heard that argument. It was ably canvassed by your brother, Member for Suna East.

He did not canvass on part (5).

He canvassed on sub- section(3).

I am canvassing sub-section (5). It says: “If for any reason, at the commencement of the Second Reading the report of the Committee has not been presented, the Committee concerned shall report progress” So far the Committee has not reported progress and that is our infringement of Standing Order. So, I believe this Bill should not be debated.

Member for Homa Bay, you have one minute.

I rise on a point of order on a fundamental constitutional issue elicited by the debate of this Bill and it being brought for the Second Reading. First The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

of all, I would like to confirm that as a Member of the House Business Committee, the House Business Committee did not meet to schedule these Bills as they appear here today.

Order, Member for Homa Bay! It is not permissible that you can bring the decision of the House Business Committee on the Floor of the Assembly in a manner that disparages that Committee. Even when you are a member of that Committee, it is not permissible for you to reveal what you discussed other than in a formal text.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I did not reveal anything that was discussed because the Committee did not meet. This is just what I am reporting to this House; the Committee did not meet.

Well, I have ruled you out of order. Resume your seat. I have ruled you out of order in the extent to which you are revealing, whether by persuasion or dissuasion, what happens in House Business Committee in this Assembly other than in a conventional text. So, I have ruled you out of order. Do not contest that.

Much obliged. Artcle 93 of our Constitution creates a bicameral parliament. Article 110(3) states: “Before either House considers a Bill, the Speakers of the National Assembly and Senate shall jointly, resolve any question as to whether it is a Bill concerning counties and, if it is, whether it is a special or an ordinary Bill.” Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I would like to request your considered ruling or revelation from the Chair on whether the question---The question has arisen from the Senate that this Bill concerns counties. The Constitution that we swore to defend requires that before we proceed on this Bill, the Speakers of the Senate and National Assembly shall present to us and say that they have agreed. This is not my creation; this is what is stated in the Constitution that I, as Member of Parliament for Homa Bay County swore to defend on the Floor of this House. I am just presenting the position. I am of the opinion that there is a disease that has crept on this side called “Ideopenia” which is a severe bankruptcy of ideas. Thank you.

Order! Upon resumption of the House, the Chair of National Security Committee rose to move the Security Laws (Amendment) Bill, 2014. But before he was able to move it, several hon. Members; hon. Mbadi, hon. Junet, hon. Ababu; hon. Waiganjo and others rose in their places to contest the constitutionality of some of the clauses contained in this Bill. Hon. Members, the presiding Chair has heard all the submissions that have been made to the National Assembly. Many of them are now replete in the HANSARD. The substantive Speaker will peruse the HANSARD, consider the law regarding the Constitution, the Bill and the Standing Orders as is before the House and make a considered ruling this afternoon. I, therefore, order that the Security Laws (Amendment) Bill, 2014 appear in the Supplementary Order Paper this afternoon before which the Speaker will make a ruling on constitutionality or otherwise of those sections of the Bill as before us and consequent upon that ruling, the relevant Chair may wish to move the The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Bill in the manner in which the Speaker will have ruled, one way or the other. It is so ordered. .