It is clear that we do not have a quorum. We may not commence the transaction of any business. I order that the Quorum Bell be rang?

We have a quorum now. Let the Quorum Bell be stopped.

Hon. Members, I have a Message from the Senate being Message No.13 of 2015. It relates to the Approval of the Mediated Version of the Environmental Management and Co- ordination (Amendment) Bill, (National Assembly Bill No. 31 of 2014). Pursuant to Standing Order Nos.41 and 150, I wish to report that I have received a Message from the Senate conveying the Approval of the Mediated Version of the Environmental Management and Co-ordination (Amendment) Bill, (National Assembly Bill, No.31 of 2014). This now confirms that the Bill may be presented for assent pursuant to Article 113(3) of the Constitution, having been passed by the two Houses. Thank you, hon. Members.

Hon. Members, before I allow Hon. Mutava Musyimi to give notice of his Motion, I wish to draw the attention of the House to the existence of a Supplementary Order Paper which is more or less essentially similar to the earlier one, but it contains some specific details which captures the Report of the Committee. In that respect, I will allow Hon. Mutava Musyimi, Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee, to proceed.

Much obliged, hon. Speaker.

On a point of order, hon. Speaker.

What is your point of order, Hon. Midiwo?

Thank you, hon. Speaker. Sorry to interrupt Hon. Musyimi, but I have a concern I want you to address before we can allow the Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee to give notice of his Motion. Hon. Speaker, I sit in the Departmental Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations. We took time and listened to various sector Ministries. When it came to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Cabinet Secretary (CS) refused to appear before us. Not even the Principal Secretary (PS) was available to present the views of the Ministry. We then received a letter signed by a junior officer telling us that the CS was unavailable. We sat as a Committee on taxpayers’ money and went through their budget in absentia . I find it hard to believe what I am seeing. Then I realised that the Budget and Appropriations Committee in total disregarded what the Departmental Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations did in order to safeguard taxpayers’ interests. We did our work

Without necessarily having to defend the Budget and Appropriations Committee, I think Hon. Midiwo has delved into matters which are partly administrative in nature. That is because if the Committee to which he belongs, as he claims, called the CS and the CS, in his own words, refused, failed and/or neglected to appear before the Committee, I am sure Hon. Midiwo who is doing his third term knows very well the recourse to get the CS to appear before the Committee. Surely, at this point in time, we should not be here discussing that. Be that as it may, I think it is perfectly in order for the Budget and Appropriations Committee to take reports from the Committees. But if the Committees also fail to provide that Committee with their respective reports on the Estimates, then that does not mean that the Budget and Appropriations Committee cannot do what is constitutional within their mandate; which is to present this Report. So, if you gave them a report and that has not been incorporated, I think then the perfect route to go is to question, in debate, the method used to arrive at the figures that they have given in this Report. At this point, we should allow the Chairman to give Notice of Motion so that, at the appropriate time, your Committee including yourself, Hon. Midiwo, will be perfectly at liberty to raise, particularly the issues with regard to the basis on which they have arrived at the figures. For now, let us allow Hon. Mutava Musyimi to give Notice of Motion but, for the administrative aspect, I think your Committee should have applied to get the CS dragged to Parliament to appear before the Committee. Hon. Mutava is just giving Notice of Motion. Let us also have Hon. Musyimi respond to that.

Thank you, hon. Speaker. The point that the hon. Member for the great people of Gem has raised is an important issue and I think it is important, in the interest of setting the tone that I have the opportunity to respond to it. It is true that the CS, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, did not appear before their Committee.

Let me just say this: I have noticed that experienced Members of this House are the ones who either conveniently refuse or choose not to follow procedure. At a point when the Member is merely giving Notice of Motion, there can never be any debate so that the issues now are outside the rules. Hon. Midiwo there is nothing for you to respond. Hon. Musyimi, I will not allow that. This is un-procedural. It is because I allowed you to speak.

I thank you, hon. Speaker. Pursuant to Standing Order No.51, I wish to withdraw the Notice that I gave yesterday concerning the Report of the Budget and Appropriations Committee on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for 2015/2016 and the Medium Term. I hereby beg to give fresh Notice of the following Motion:- THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Budget and Appropriations Committee on the Budget Estimates for the National Government, Judiciary and Parliament for the Financial Year 2015/2016, laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 26th May, 2015 and pursuant to the provisions of Section 39 of the Public Finance Management Act, 2012 and Standing Order Nos.235 and 239, this House approves the issuance of a sum of Kshs1,508,517,181,340 from the Consolidated Fund to meet the expenditure during the year ending 30th June, 2016 in respect of the votes as indicated in the schedule. The schedule is published in the Supplementary Order Paper. I thank you. Hon. Speaker, as required by the Constitution and the Public Finance Management Act, the budget estimates and related documents for the three arms of Government; namely, the national Government, Parliament and the Judiciary were submitted to the National Assembly on 30th June, 2015. My Committee examined and discussed the Estimates and has made recommendations which are contained in this Report. Once approved by this House, these recommendations would form the basis for the passage of the appropriate law. In reviewing the 2015/2016 Budget Estimates---

On a point of order, hon. Speaker.

What is your point of order, Hon. Katoo?

Could you please compel Hon. Mutava Musyimi to move the Motion first because he just gave the notice? He has not moved the Motion.

Hon. Katoo, he began by explaining the basis then he will move. He can either use the word “move”either when he finishes or when he begins. So, there is nothing out of order. Hon. Mutava Musyimi proceed! But you are reminded by the Hon. Katoo that you will be required to move the Motion.

I thank my good friend Hon. Katoo ole Metito. In view of what he has said, let us do first things first.

Hon. Mary Emaase.

Thank you, hon. Speaker. I rise to second the Motion. The budget is the most important economic policy tool for any government. Through budgeting, the Government is able to translate its policies and political commitments into implementable development agenda, which has a direct impact on the livelihoods and wellbeing of Kenyans. The role of Parliament is to ensure that as resources are allocated, not only are they utilized prudently and efficiently, but also that priority is given to areas which are likely to have the most positive impact on the lives of Kenyans. This is the third Budget to be processed by the 11th Parliament. In the previous Budgets, this House was able to assert itself in its oversight role by instituting austerity measures and adjusting expenditure proposals to ensure that the Budget reflects the wishes of the people. This year, the Budget and Appropriations Committee has worked closely with the Departmental Committees to ensure that given the resource constraints, funding is allocated to high-priority areas that are likely to have the greatest impact. In line with the Constitution, the public was also given an opportunity to give their recommendations on the Executive’s Budget proposals, which have been incorporated in this Report. During the review of the Budget, the Committee was concerned to note that various Ministries do not own the targets and outputs written in the Budget Estimates and could not report on the status of their performance. Indeed, during consultations with the Departmental Committees, many Ministries presented entirely different targets from those reflected in the Executive Budget proposals. This raises a serious question on how involved the line Ministries are in the preparation of their own budgets and limits the National Assembly from properly executing its oversight role since there is no continuity in the Budget. It is my hope that the National Treasury will take steps to remedy this situation and ensure that each Ministry owns its budget.

Hon. Members, those of you who are walking around, take your seats. When you get into the door, please, try to find out what is happening. Do not just walk looking down. Just find out what is happening.

Yes, Hon. Midiwo. What is your point of order?

Hon. Speaker, let me, first of all, start by apologising on the issue that I had raised earlier prematurely. I want to raise it in a different manner. It is seriously fundamental. I sit in the Departmental Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations. I want to deal with the part which is on foreign relations and falls in the Department of Foreign Affairs.

Hon. Mutava Musyimi, this is a point of order that is raised by Hon. Midiwo for my guidance. Hon. Musyimi, do you want to contribute to that particular issue?

Thank you, hon. Speaker. I respect what the Member for Gem has said. At the risk of repeating myself, I will say what I said. First, the fact is that the Cabinet Secretary (CS) called me herself. I did not call her. That happened when I was sitting in the Budget and Appropriations Committee. Other Members of the Committee are here and they will confirm that, that is what happened because I told them who I was speaking to. We then discussed the issue. She apologized that she was not able to appear before the Committee because she was in Mali where she had been sent by the President. I asked her whether she did all that she could to make sure that she met the Committee and she said yes. She said that she came back on a Friday and tried to get hold of the Committee on Saturday, but nobody answered her phone call. Mind you, we are talking about 48 hours later; that is Monday, two days ago. She then told me that her Principal Secretary (PS) was in London dealing with the

issue. So, both of them were away.

I wish the Member for the great people of Gem would listen because he has raised the question and I would like him to, at least, make an attempt to hear me.

In that situation, a representative was sent to the Committee and the Committee deliberated and made a decision. We discussed at length how we could deal with the report of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. We wondered whether we were going to act punitively to exercise sanctions because the Cabinet Secretary or the Principal Secretary did not appear. We debated all that and finally made the decision that it was the right thing that we support her budget.

That is not the only Ministry that we dealt with. There are many other Committees that brought recommendation for changes and we used our discretion not to honour their recommendations, not because we have super plenary powers. The word “super” talks of not just bad faith, but ill faith, unfortunately. We have no super powers. But according to the Standing Orders, a report has to be brought here by the Budget and Appropriations Committee based on the recommendations of the other Committees.

Is it, therefore, possible to look at the recommendations of a Committee and not honour them? Yes, it is. At the end of the day, we must bring these recommendations to the Treasury. The law requires that, at the end of the day, we sit with the Treasury so that we can look at all the excess funds the Committees want to see whether the Treasury has that money. We should also ask ourselves whether if we deny these Ministries the money, we are denying them rightly or not. Sometimes, we go back to the Chairs and ask for clarifications.

The Committee has discretion given to it by the Standing Orders. Chairs of Committees deal with the Cabinet Secretaries and we deal with the Treasury. But every once in a while, the Committee meets with the Head of the national Government and I normally report these things. There is nothing to hide. We are all elected leaders. I told my Committee that sometimes this week, I will have an opportunity to meet the President, so that I could brief him about the Budget. I find nothing wrong with that, so that I can tell him how far we have gone with the

Just a minute! Those Members who are doing their first term, please, when a Member is on a point of order, it is out of order for you to claim that you also want to rise on a point of order. So, Member for Homa Bay Town, please, relax! You will get your time. Proceed. I must keep on educating you from time to time.

Hon. Speaker, having met the President in the morning, we had a Budget and Appropriations Committee meeting eight hours later. I reported to the Committee about the meeting. That is my background. I come from a background that is very strong on certain values of transparency and accountability. I reported everything to the Budget and Appropriations Committee and they asked questions. There is nothing here to hide. We are elected leaders

Hon. Members, do I notice that a few Members want to speak to this point? I need to make a ruling preferably in the afternoon. This is a very serious matter. It is the Budget and it is absolutely important that we get something that is considered. Let me give the first shot to the Member for Tongaren.

Thank you, hon. Speaker. As you do your ruling, perhaps, you also need to consider what the Chair of the Budget and Appropriations Committee had said earlier on. He tended to imply that the Budget and Appropriations Committee’s hands are tied as to how much they can change various issues that, perhaps, might have been recommended by Committees. He said that they can only move with a very small percentage. We are a House of rules and procedures and when I go through all that, I get the impression that the Budget and Appropriations Committee has much more power than what the Chairman is telling us. They can actually vary much more things than what the Chairman is trying to tell us.

Can we hear the views of the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade, who is also the hon. Member for Ainamoi Constituency?

Thank you very much, hon. Speaker. I have also been asking myself the question raised by Hon. Jakoyo. This is because I am also a chairman of a committee and we spend a lot of time and energy scrutinising the Budget. When you are ruling, I will want to know to what extent the Budget and Appropriations Committee takes on board, or does not, the recommendations of the respective Departmental Committees and whether they can do it without consultation with the respective chairpersons. This is because that will then mean that all these processes during which we call Cabinet Secretaries (CSs), and various heads of departments are very useless; this is so since one committee can override, without recourse, the decision of a previous committee. It is a very fundamental matter which means we change the way we go about the Budget process. I am a member of the Budget and Appropriations Committee, but I am also concerned about those chairpersons who are not members of that Committee but just submit reports, and they are not there when the decisions are being made. Anything can be said, so that whatever recommendations they made become almost irrelevant. It is also good to know and clarify whether it will be a good practice to have chairpersons being present when we are adopting the reports of committees in the Budget and Appropriations Committee, so that they can clarify or be consulted, in case of any questions. Otherwise, we spend a lot of public funds in meetings which can be overridden just in a day’s recommendations. It will be fair to clarify that position.

Hon. Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Speaker, we need to get a serious Communication on this matter. This is because Parliament, more so the National Assembly, through its committees like the Budget and Appropriations Committee has a fundamental constitutional role in the budget- making process under a presidential system of governance. The process is well stipulated in the Standing Orders, Constitution and the Public Finance Management (PFM) Act, which this House has passed. Serious stakeholders must be involved and their input taken seriously. For example, the National Treasury does a pre-Budget stakeholder consultation. I am sure the Member for Seme Constituency, who is a former Permanent Secretary (PS), knows there is public participation and key economic blueprints like the Vision 2030 are taken into consideration. The Budget Policy Statement (BPS) is brought to the House by the Budget and Appropriations Committee for discussion. It is taken to the Senate for notification; the Senate is supposed to note the BPS. More fundamentally, the parliamentary committees are important in the sense that they are the ones which are in charge of respective departments. That is why Government officials like CSs and Accounting Officers appear before committees which listen to them. They might agree or disagree with them, and they finally send a report to the Budget and Appropriations Committee defending their views.

Let me first of all hear the Member for Homa Bay Town since he appears agitated.

Hon. Speaker, I have not been of my full health. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to address this matter. I am actually not agitated. I am in some physical pain. The budgeting function and oversight over Budget is a function of Parliament through the various constitutional provisions, running from Article 93 down to Article 96 of our Constitution. The issue that has been raised is very important. In fact, the first thing we want to question is the role of Departmental Committees, if any, in the budgeting process. I beg that in your Communication to the House, this be properly clarified. It is not a challenge coming from the Departmental Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations. However, Departmental Committees get so hurt. It is not pleasant when you sit with a Government department falling under your charge to discuss taxpayers’ money and then when you do a report and recommendations the Budget and Appropriations Committee thinks they are nothing. My view is that the budgeting function is a role for Parliament, and not a role of the Budget and Appropriations Committee. In fact, the Budget and Appropriations Committee merely facilitates Parliament as a whole in the budgeting process. So, there is no superior power that the Budget and Appropriations Committee has in this matter, or that is unique to them. Hon. Speaker, may I also request you, as the good Chair, to find time in the Communication to rule on how Parliament, in a presidential system in particular, should engage other organs and arms of Government. I was shocked, and I regret it, when I heard our able Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee say that it is a normal thing for him to engage the Executive on matters of parliamentary business. Is it as the Chair of the Committee? As a leader I can engage the President and the Chief Justice, but in the official functioning and the official actions of Parliament, I believe the Constitution is clear. Communication from Parliament and engagement between Parliament, as an organ of Government, and other organs of the Executive, is the business of the Speaker. I do not want to pre-empt what you will decide, but I think it should be said that if a committee finds itself in the situation the Committee on Budget

Hon. Members, to be fair I ask you to restrict yourselves. I am hoping that as we discuss this issue, it is an important one as I said. We should look at the provisions of particularly Standing Order No. 235, and also notice that Subsection (6) thereof permits that the House resolution would be with or without amendments. Section 235 (4) (5) have placed certain responsibilities on us to discuss, review and consider. The Budget and Appropriations Committee shall take into account the recommendations of Departmental Committees. This is so that we can narrow down the issues which have been raised by Hon. Midiwo, particularly relating to the issue at hand about the Cabinet Secretary (CS) for Foreign Affairs, if I understood the Hon. Midiwo and the Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee to be making

On a point of Information, hon. Speaker.

It is unlikely that I can be informed by you.

If you want to inform the House, how do you do it Hon. Mary Emaase? Let us hear the hon. Member then you will inform the House. We will give you a chance to make a contribution as the Vice-Chairperson, so that in the process you inform the Members.

Hon. Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute. This is a most important point of principle that, in fact, has seized the minds of the membership of, particularly the Departmental Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations in this financial year and, indeed, even in the last financial year. The point has been raised by Hon. Jakoyo Midiwo that during the hearings of the Budget and Appropriations Committee, we were surprised to hear that the CS for Foreign Affairs was unable to attend; this was not news to the Committee because we are very aware of her functions and her external mandate in her heavy schedule. However, in the same token, the Accounting Officer of the Ministry, Dr. Karanja Kibicho was also unavailable to represent his Ministry and present the budget to the Committee; the team that was sent to the Committee was not up to the task, according to the Committee. A reference

Hon. Onyonka, do you want to add something?

Thank you, hon. Speaker. I could not have given more support to the issues that the Chairman of my Departmental Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations has stated. I think one of the very subtle issues that I would want you in your ruling to touch on--- Hon. Musyimi is a man we highly respect, and I want to say that we are not passing any judgment, or doubting his credentials in terms of integrity. What we want him to understand is that when you make a ruling, and we sit in a Committee, we discuss critical issues; we make recommendations. The Constitution and Standing Orders state that the Budget and Appropriations Committee should take account of those recommendations. We have had close to 15 meetings in hotels and restaurants discussing budgets of different Ministries and departments. For Hon. Musyimi to say that he can disregard them, and that he is not under any obligation to take what we have recommended to him, and he can make a decision as he may wish, or if he has consulted the Executive--- I think he misunderstands the responsibilities and the role that we, as Members of this House, are supposed to play. The other issue I would like to say is that I believe there was a reason why the drafters of the Constitution said that Parliament shall, through its Committees sit, deliberate and make recommendations, which shall then be taken to the Budget and Appropriations Committee. Hon. Speaker, the last point I want to make is, do not forget that the decision or ruling you are going to make today is also going to affect how the county governments departments within the county executives are going to manage their budgets. This is because what this will mean is that a budget chair says that the county assembly has sat down and passed recommendations and given those recommendations to the Chairman of the Budget Committee, but he can disregard whatever they have said. Essentially what we are saying is that we need to introduce due diligence. We need to make sure that the recommendations we make, as the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations has said, are discussed. The Government needs to start buying its property so that our ambassadors can stay within the premises owned by the Kenyan Government. Why are we renting houses? When we

Hon. Joseph Limo.

Thank you, hon. Speaker. I stand to make my comments on what is going on. Hon. Speaker, it is very clear that it is important that for anything to happen in this House, we need to listen to each other, and have wide consultations. You have seen how costly it is when a certain thing has not been done and it has even cost us our time. Remember this is a special sitting, and we have taken almost two hours discussing this because of lack of consultation. There is an example which I will give. There was a company where someone did not consult and it cost millions of money because the company had to advertise that they had not made a mistake. This House is now discussing issues which could have been sorted out earlier. What I am suggesting in your ruling is that issues of chairs making consultations should be paramount in any discussions we are going to make going forward; decisions made without consultations are very costly. There are so many Ministries which have started taking this House for granted. Why? Because whether they present to the Committees and the Committees decide what they want or not, they know there is a way they will go about it. Other than going to the Budget and Appropriations Committee, which I am a Member of, they will go back, present their issues and bring them in the Supplementary Budget. There is actually mischief in law because if this House rejects a proposal from a Ministry, it is not a must that that Ministry will not spend money. We have realized they will go ahead, spend and bring it in the Supplementary Budget. So we need to look for a way of making sure that any rejection by this House and by a committee, which has been approved by this House during the budget-making process will not be allowed to appear in the Supplementary Budget; it makes decision taken by this House futile if we allow people to use other channels. On the issues we are discussing now, several committees appeared before the Budget and Appropriations Committee, which I sit on; for record purposes, I need to make it very clear that save for this issue of the Departmental Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations, all the other recommendations from other committees were taken into account without any change.

The only fear was that during the presentations we realized that most committees were accepting in totality what the Ministries were presenting. On top of that, they were recommending additions. The question is, when a committee comes up with additions to the Budget and Appropriations Committee and says it is begging for additions, where will that money come from?

This House must operate in a way that we do pre-audit of the Budget as presented by the Ministries. An example is the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade where I am also a Member. We took to task the various Cabinet Secretaries (CSs) and Principal

Maybe we could hear Hon. Mary Emaase briefly because now it is clear. I can see there are very many of you, but I am now very clear that even in the course of the debate, many of you will still ventilate on these issues. Nothing limits you.

Thank you, hon. Speaker, once more for this opportunity. I appreciate the concerns raised by Hon. Midiwo and echoed by most of the Members who have spoken, but I am surprised that they seem to suggest that the Budget and Appropriations Committee should not have made any variations. The information I wanted to give to the House is that the Budget and Appropriations Committee largely adopted the recommendations of the Departmental Committee and only did very minimum variations. If you imply that the Budget and Appropriations Committee should not have varied anything, then that begs the question, are we a rubber stamp? The mandate of the Budget and Appropriations Committee is also to protect the interests of the people of Kenya. The only variations we did were to decline to adopt the recommendations by the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs, for instance to reduce the budget of the Judiciary, because we said this is a critical department that has important responsibilities and we cannot afford to reduce its budget.

We also felt, as a committee, that for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, it was punitive to reduce their budget because the CS did not appear before the Committee. We were not given justification as to why the budget was drastically reduced. Some of us have travelled to foreign embassies. Some of those embassies are in a pathetic state. So the Committee declined to accept the recommendations of those committees. Members of the Budget and Appropriations Committee who are here can attest to the fact that we largely adopted the recommendations of the Departmental Committees, especially those of the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade. We adopted almost 100 per cent of their recommendations.

To speak to the issue of consultation and consulting the Executive, our Chairman got the permission from the Committee to consult the President as well. The President is a stakeholder in

Before I hear Hon. Mutava Musyimi. Let me hear Hon. Dalmas Otieno.

Thank you, hon. Speaker. We are---

Surely, Hon. Maanzo, it is not the size. Vertically you are not the size of Hon. Dalmas Otieno, even if we were to be--- Hon. Dalmas Otieno is the Member for Rongo. Hon. Daniel Maanzo is the Member for Makueni. Let us hear Hon. Dalmas Otieno then, perhaps, we can hear Hon. Maanzo. I am aware that you have been given the responsibility by your Committee to stand in for the Chairperson.

Thank you, hon. Speaker. We are talking money matters. In this country the most sensitive and explosive issues are money and land. When it comes to the budget process, consultation with the public is required; consultation with the Executive, the Central Bank of Kenya that is responsible for macro-economic management and individual Members’ interest come into play. The budget-making is rightly in the hands of the House, but it is a new responsibility which will continue as such, but we have not made adequate provisions and procedures on how to tackle it. We are going to do this overtime. For example, the time we have allocated for the budget-making process still appears to be inadequate. Two, on the role of the Departmental Committees vis-à-vis the budget-making process, there are still areas for which we may have to agree on certain procedures, whether there are additions or not, and what must be taken into account. If there are reductions, what must be done if reductions have to be made.

The issue before us today apparently has been brought up by the failure of the CS for Foreign Affairs to appear before the Departmental Committee. It is only the CS whom we have powers to sanction, and no other officer in the Government. Only the CS and after the CS, it is only the President whom Parliament may have powers to sanction in a way. It should be a ruling from this House and I am sure it was expected to be the practice that on budgetary matters and financial matters, that is an audit and budget process, the CS shall appear in person before the Departmental Committee when summoned.

The summons should give adequate notice for the Cabinet Secretary to appear. I sympathise with the Cabinet Secretary for Foreign Affairs. This is because Africa is burning all

Let me hear hon. Maanzo.

Thank you, hon. Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. As we wait for you to make a ruling, I would like to state that ceilings are provided in the Budget Policy Statement (BPS), which we passed in this House; it is a property of the House. Therefore, the Budget now flows from the ceilings and there is no way any committee or Ministry can go beyond the ceilings. At the same time, while the process goes on, the Budget Office gives each committee an expert to guide them during the budgetary process, so that each committee is

Finally, let us have hon. Mutava Musyimi.

Thank you, hon. Speaker. Let me begin by apologising to the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations, my good friend, the hon. Member for Tetu. I should have called him. That is what I normally do. However, in a minute, you will know why it did not happen. I am not withdrawing my apology. I mean it. The timelines that we have been working with put the Budget and Appropriations Committee in a pressure cooker situation that is actually impossible to manage. Through you, let me inform this honourable House that the Committees of this House presented their reports on Friday last week. Friday last week was the deadline. The Parliamentary Budget Office had Friday to compile those reports. I then instructed the Budget Office to call the Members of my Committee and tell them that we needed to report for work on Sunday. You know my background. It was not an easy decision for me. I reported to the venue on Sunday at 11.00 a.m. I had asked the Cabinet Secretary and the Principal Secretary of the National Treasury to be there. The law demands that we meet the National Treasury. We spent Sunday going through our concerns with the Cabinet Secretary for the National Treasury, because he was travelling on Monday to Abidjan. Given the substantive weight of the issues we were discussing, it was not going to be possible to just deal with the Principal Secretary. Today is Wednesday. So, we had Monday to go through the reports from the Departmental Committee Chairs. We started our sittings at 9.00 a.m. on Monday. We had to listen to the Departmental Committee Chairs as they gave us their reports. Those reports had to be completed and then we had to call the National Treasury on Monday, so that we could talk to them as we had the benefit of the views of the Committees. This is because we respect what the Committees say. So, we asked the National Treasury to come back on Monday at 4.00 p.m. Having listened to the Reports of the Departmental Committee Chairs, we then asked ourselves what they had said and what we should tell the National Treasury. So, we had a long session with the National Treasury, which ended at around 6.00 p.m. From then on, we began making decisions because that is the responsibility given to us by the law. It was the expectations of this House and our people. At some point, whether you like it or not, the buck has to stop somewhere. So we began to make decisions at about 6.00 p.m. We went through each committee’s report. We finished at around 9.00 p.m. or 10.00 p.m. on Monday, so that we could give the Parliamentary Budget Office the opportunity to compile the resolutions of the Budget and Appropriations Committee yesterday, which they did.

Then I was asked to make sure that, that report was tabled here by 5.00 p.m. yesterday. That was on Tuesday. I was running up and down, getting documents signed and getting permission from the Deputy Speaker to first of all call a meeting of the Budget and Appropriations Committee, so that it could adopt the report which we did at about 3.30 p.m. Then we were to go through the report with the Committee and after the Committee had finished

Hon. Members, I have heard sufficient material on that topic. It is clear that we need to have a constant review of our own rules not least, of course, in the areas I mentioned earlier. It is also important, as has been said by Hon. Dalmas Otieno, that we constantly remind ourselves of some of the provisions that we have put in the various processes, particularly the Constitution. Remember that even when we looked at the Standing Orders, we specifically referred to Article 153(3) of the Constitution that says that a Cabinet Secretary shall appear before a Committee of the National Assembly or the Senate to answer questions on matters for which the Cabinet Secretary is responsible. There can never be anything more important than the budget of a Ministry. That has been amplified by several of you. It is a matter that we need to constantly remind ourselves about. How do we keep improving? How do we improve the current processes that we have? You have heard the Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriations Committee lament about the very short time that he has within which to bring reports to the House. Remember the date of not later than 30th of April of every year is in the Constitution. However, through our own actions as a House we need to compel those in the Treasury to appreciate that it says “not later than”. Some of these strictures are happening in the House because they think “not later than” means on 30th of April. Year in, year out they deliver the estimates around 30th of April and then the other processes kick in. That is the 21 days within which these reports are to be considered by the various Departmental Committees and the public hearings. The Budget and Appropriations Committee is required to conduct public hearings, so

Thank you, hon. Speaker. I rise to support the Motion by the Budget and Appropriations Committee. I also thank the Committee for working extra hard to bring this Report on time. I want to mention something on the State corporations. You realise that 32 per cent of the allocation to State corporations is coming from the Exchequer. We know very well that State corporations are supposed to stand on their own. They are supposed to be efficient and effective. For how long are these State corporations going to rely on the Exchequer? Another issue that I have seen in this Report is on the Ministry of Education. I have not seen the Ministry of Education’s bursary for secondary schools. I wish the Chair of Budget and Appropriations Committee was listening. I do not know what we are going to do because we have so many families that are suffering. These are the families that have been relying so much on this bursary for secondary schools. Of late, we are not seeing it. So, we need to get an explanation. I have gone through the votes under the Ministry of Education, Science and Technology but I cannot see the money that was being allocated to these children from poor families. It is true in this presidential system that the budget-making process lies with this Parliament. We should not allow the Executive to continue dictating things as if we are still in the parliamentary system. It is indeed important that as relevant Departmental Committees work together, we should work in harmony with the Budget and Appropriations Committee so that

On a point of order, hon. Speaker.

There is a point of order from the Member for Ainamoi.

Sorry, hon. Speaker. I heard Hon. Wamalwa saying he is a ranking member of the Budget and Appropriations Committee---

I was.

Hon. Speaker, Hon. Wamalwa is an ordinary member, actually a junior member of the Budget and Appropriations Committee. He is abusing the words “ranking member”. That name should be reserved for the right people.

Hon. Speaker, you know Hon. Langat is my friend and when it comes to matters of budget, he consults me enough times. However, I said I was a member because I am no longer serving in that Committee. The Chair of the Budget and Appropriations Committee can recall my contributions.

Hon. Joseph Limo. Hon. Tiya Galgallo, are you on a point of order or do you want to contribute?

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I wish to rise and support this Report. Before I speak to it, I wish to state very clearly that the current Constitution is the best in terms of ensuring that this House does not become a rubber stamp during the budget-making process. Away from the past where the Minister for Finance would come to this House with a secret Budget, this House is fully involved in the budget-making process. That is a very good move. However, let us not forget that there are enemies of the current system. I have overheard that there is an attempt to bring in the issue of percentages, that is, how much we can alter as a House. I want to state very clearly that this House must stand its ground in terms of making the Budget and ensure that the Budget is fully integrated and fully supported. This country has lost billions of shillings because when the Ministries are making estimates, they ensure that the Estimates are overstated. So, the Committees in this House should be very vigilant. They should take a lot of time ensuring that whatever is given to the Ministries they are fully supported, realistic and supported by the market rates.

If you look at the current Board, the summary says that the revenue, expenditure and borrowings are going up. I am really worried that the expenditure is increasing more than revenue. The Estimated Revenue is increasing, but at a slower pace than the expenditure. What it means is that this country is going to depend more on borrowing which is good, but any country should also be looking at sustainability and ensure that revenue grows faster than expenditure. If I look at the Development Vote versus the Recurrent Vote, I can say that it is a good trend. We are almost attaining 50 per cent.

I want to encourage the counties to borrow leaf from the national Government in terms of ensuring that more money is voted to Development Expenditure than Recurrent Expenditure. On the priority areas, this country should focus more on food security. The first step is to ensure that the people in this country are well fed. Once they are well fed and the food prices are stable, then you can focus on other infrastructure development. One of the biggest threats to food security in this country currently is the lethal maize necrosis which has destroyed most of the plantations in the South Rift. There is a risk that North Rift is not safe either. Therefore, on this Budget, we should see more effort being put on control of crop disease and compensation of farmers who have lost their maize. It is a big worry that for the last three years, most farmers in Bomet, Narok and Kericho have lost maize, but little has been done. We have not seen the Government coming in to give farmers say, free seeds and fertiliser to ensure that these farmers are back on track especially in the areas where the effects of this crop disease are subsiding.

The other thing is that we should see more affirmative action to ensure that those areas are safe from the crop disease. The recommendation prevailing now is that farmers should not grow maize for the next three years so that the disease disappears. However, little has been done in terms of training farmers and giving them alternative crops to plant meanwhile. Therefore, we should put more emphasis on the control of the disease and compensation of farmers who have lost their crop as a result to this disease.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, the Government has spoken very widely about fertiliser. Now, fertiliser subsidy is not sustainable because the Government spends a lot of dollars in importation of fertiliser. The Government is putting a lot of emphasis on producing fertiliser in Kenya. Therefore, we should support more funding to ensure that fertiliser is produced within Kenya. That way, the price of fertiliser will be cheaper and this will also create employment for our youths. Unless we expand production of various items so that industries grow, we are going to be in trouble.

Hon. Makali Mulu.

Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker, for giving me the chance to also support the Budget and Appropriations Committee Report. Before I go into the details of the Report, I want to make a general observation relating to the debate that ensued in the morning. As the Budget and Appropriations Committee, we resolved that when Departmental Committees reallocate resources from some vote items to other vote items, we should go by their decision. However, the challenge we have is that Departmental Committees come up with new proposals, in effect calling for additional resources that have not been budgeted for. It is really an issue of appreciating the whole budget-making process. The more I listened to hon. Members contribute, the more I got concerned about the level of appreciation of the budget-making process amongst hon. Members. The first time this House comes into contact with the budget-making process is at the stage of the Budget Policy Statement (BPS), which sets the ceiling for the various sectors of the economy. This House then discusses the BPS Paper and approves it. After its approval, it means that we have agreed, as a House, that the BPS is the resource envelop for the country for any particular financial year. So, when we have a situation where Departmental Committees come to the Budget and Appropriations Committee with requests for additional resources, we ask ourselves whether these are the same Departmental Committees which approved the budgets of the various Ministries, Departments and Agencies (MDAs), as contained in the BPS. We need to appreciate the budget-making process; otherwise, it will appear that we have wars amongst ourselves, which is not true. We are all working for this country. We need to support the Departmental Committees. At the same time, the Departmental

Thank you for this opportunity hon. Deputy Speaker. I want to first of all appreciate the debate we had today over the manner in which the Budget and Appropriations Committee operates with the other Committees. Committees spend a lot of time and talk to different people who are concerned with those Ministries in trying to come up with the Budget Estimates. At the end of the day we have to come up with a budget which is national and serves our macro-economic goals. We appreciate the involvement of Committees and I want to say that as a member of that Committee, we largely take recommendations of other Committees because they spend a lot of time and have more information than the Budget and Appropriations Committee. They actually have all information. We deviate a little bit on issues raised by Committees only when we have extra information or when there are things that are emotional that we need to address in our country. If you look at our Budget today, it is not the best that we can have in our country. We still have a development budget that is only 36 per cent and a recurrent expenditure of 40 per cent of our total Budget. If we want to develop and reach the goals of the developed countries, we would like to see a reverse of the same. It is even worrying when you look at what we had in terms of revenue last time and what we have as revenue this year, the growth that we get in terms of revenue versus the growth that we get in terms of expenditure. Today we have a net negative

Whether you give it to us or not, let the truth be out there.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, because the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Finance, Trade and Planning whom I respect so much has disrupted my train of thought, let me stop there.

Thank you, hon. Deputy Speaker. I stand to support the report by the Budget and Appropriations Committee of which I am a member. As I support this Report, I want to say that this Committee had intensive, participatory and interactive sessions with the chairpersons of different committees. During this particular time, the chairpersons and representatives of Departmental Committees were interrogated on the presentation that they did from different Ministries and they were able to give justification and support for their decisions. I would also want to say that Members also had an opportunity---

Hon. Tiya Galgallo, let me just stop you for a minute to recognize the presence of University Student Leaders from Burundi, Tanzania, Rwanda, Uganda, DRC Congo and Kenya who are now seated in the Public Gallery. All of them are invited to attend the National Prayer Breakfast tomorrow, 28th May, 2015.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, we had meetings with chairpersons of different Departmental Committees and Members of Parliament who raised pertinent issues, for example, the amount of money allocated to the Ministries. During this particular time, I remember there were budgetary issues that were raised concerning dams, boreholes and water pans allocated to the ASAL areas. Hon. Members stated that some of the monies that were allocated through different regional authorities were not channeled towards the needs of the community. I remember some of the projects that were to be initiated in my county Isiolo could not be realized because they were not community-driven and they were supposed to be handled by the Ministry of Environment, Water and Natural Resource. For example, the money allocated through the Ministry of Environment, Water and Natural Resource, and also National Youth Service was supposed to be used to build water pans in some of the counties. We realized that, according to the community needs, some of these dams were drivers of conflict. So, the community said no. Some of the things they required instead were rehabilitation, protection, and desilting of the already existing service water in the community. The interaction really helps. Ministries need to relook at some of the things that they are supposed to do under the Ministry’s programmes. We also looked at the issue of cash transfer and the OVC Programme under the Departmental Committee on Labour and Social Welfare where I am the vice-chairperson. We realized that there are a lot of challenges in terms of disbursement of money to the elderly and orphans in different counties. It was the decision of the Departmental Committee on Labour and Social Welfare that we request for a forensic audit of the fund. This is because in many of the counties this money never gets to the required beneficiaries. We also realized that there are leakages, theft and corruption related to the monies that are supposed to go to the orphans and vulnerable people. So, a quick forensic audit of the social protection funds that are going to the persons with disability, orphans, vulnerable children and the elderly is critical for our Committee. We also looked at the issue of monies that are supposed to be going to the Women Enterprise Development Fund (WEDF), Youth Enterprise Development Fund (YEDF), Anti- FGM and also the Child Welfare Society of Kenya. In our Committee, we also realized that there are new institutions that have not been allocated money despite the fact that they were approved by this Parliament. We keep on passing laws here in Parliament that give rise to institutions without allocating funds for their operationalization. It was the Committee’s decision that as much as we are creating new institutions; we must also reciprocate by giving funding to ensure that at least we do not have institutions that are just there without operational money. At the end of the day these institutions are expected to meet their legal objectives as required by law. During the budget-making process, we also realized that there are quite a number of institutions that are not invited by their mother Ministries. I remember whenever we had our meetings as the Departmental Committee on Labour and Social Welfare, some of the critical institutions like YEDF, WEDF and the Anti-FGM group were never invited to defend their budgets. Most times the Ministry officials come on their behalf and only present a blanket request in the form of a budget.

Let us have Hon. (Eng.) Nicholas Gumbo.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the Report of the Budget and Appropriations Committee on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Financial Year 2015 / 2016. As I contribute, I would like to comment on the remark by my good friend Rev. Mutava Musyimi, who bemoaned the culture of suspicion and mistrust in the House. Even though he is not in the House, I would advise him that if he adhered to the principles of public finance which require openness and accountability, perhaps nobody would be suspicious nor would there be mistrust. I have looked at the schedule that has been attached to this Motion and I note that our allocation for security-related functions which is Interior, Defence and Intelligence is over Kshs 220 billion. This is the largest security allocation in the whole of East Africa. In fact, judging by what I have just been looking through, this security allocation is bigger than that of Tanzania, Rwanda and Burundi combined. It translates to a whopping Kshs 4.5 billion per county. Then of course the question must be asked: “Why then are we so insecure, with such a big allocation?” I also note that the Recurrent Expenditure for policing services alone is nearly Kshs 69 billion. This is equivalent to about Kshs 1.5 billion per county. Again the question that is being asked is: “With such a big allocation, why are we so unsafe?” I have talked to some of the policemen in my constituency and sometimes they tell me that in a day they are given an allocation for as little as three litres of fuel per day. The question and from where I sit in the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) if it is to be asked is: “Where is this money going?”

It is also my hope that the nearly Kshs12 billion Development Vote for policing services will go towards addressing the deploring condition of police housing which still remains pathetically inadequate. The issue of police housing has been a major concern and I do not think there has ever been a session in this house that we have not expressed our concern on the same. But even as I say that, it would be interesting to know how the development allocation of nearly

You have exhausted your time Hon. (Eng.) Gumbo. Hon. Members, the time being 1.00 p.m., this House stands adjourned until this afternoon at 2.30 p.m.

The House rose at 1.00 p.m.