We do not have quorum. Ring the Quorum Bell.

Hon. Members, we are now properly constituted. Let us start our business.

Hon. Members, we have two petitions. Can we have the one by Hon. Kisang. Is the Hon. Member in the House? I have given you the microphone.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I, the undersigned, on behalf of members of Chebororwa community in Marakwet West Constituency, draw the attention of the House to the following:- (i) THAT, during the colonial period, approximately 2,500 acres of land belonging to Chebororwa community was set aside for establishment of a training centre for farmers from Elgeyo Marakwet, West Pokot, Baringo, Uasin Gishu and Trans Nzoia areas. (ii) THAT, the land was the community’s sole source of livelihood on which they depended for grazing, cultivation, water and other essential needs including medicinal herbs. (iii) THAT, in 1943, the farm was made a vaccination ground and later converted to Chebororwa Farmers Training Centre, now called Chebororwa Agricultural Training Centre (A.T.C). The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

(iv) THAT, between 1956 and 1957, the land was fenced, resulting in eviction of locals, demolition of settlements, destruction of property and confiscation of livestock. (v) THAT, this condemned residents of Chebororwa to homelessness, abject poverty and psychological trauma due to being forced to live along the dangerous cliffs of Kabelio Hills. (vi) THAT, in 1996, the Ministry of Agriculture, Livestock Development and Marketing approved a request from Marakwet District Development Committee to hive off 1,800 acres of the said land for settlement of squatters who had been evicted in 1957 by the Colonial Government. (vii) THAT, between 2010 and 2012 the Transition Authority transferred the Chebororwa ATC from Elgeyo Marakwet County to Uasin Gishu County, without consulting residents of Elgeyo Marakwet where it was originally located. (viii) THAT, by alienating any community from land, which is the main economic mainstay for the livelihoods of many Kenyans violates their right to a decent life as provided for in Article 43(1) of the Constitution.

( Loud consultations )

Order, Members! The consultations are far too high. The Member reading the petition on behalf of the petitioners cannot be heard. Let us settle down.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I will continue from where I left. (ix) THAT, promises by both the colonial and independence governments and efforts from local leaders to address the plight of residents by returning their land have never borne any fruit. (x) THAT, the matter in respect of which this Petition is raised is not pending before any court of law or constitutional body. Therefore, your humble petitioners pray that the National Assembly, through the Departmental Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Co-operatives:- a) Investigates the circumstances under which the land was transferred from Elgeyo Marakwet County to Uasin Gishu County, and stops the latter from undertaking any developments on the said land pending settlement of the dispute. b) Intervenes to ensure that all land processes and transactions in respect to Chebororwa A.T.C Farm by the Ministry of Lands are suspended forthwith, pending determination of the dispute. c) Recommends that the Government ensures that the 1,800 acres set aside for the local community in 1996 reverts to them; and d) Makes any other recommendations that the Committee may deem necessary for addressing the plight of the petitioners. And your petitioners will ever pray. Thank you.

Hon. Kisang, I heard you praying to the Departmental Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Co-operatives but from what you have read, it sounds to me like the petition belongs to the Departmental Committee on Lands. I think it shall be The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

committed to the Departmental Committee on Lands and if they require anything from the Departmental Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Co-operatives---

On a point of order, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Hon. Chepkong’a are you on a point of order? Is this point of order going to help us decide between the two Committees, or it is going to assist him? Do you want to be assisted, Hon. Kisang?

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I do not think I want Hon. Chepkong’a to assist me because he is an interested party. He is from Uasin Gishu County which we have an issue with.

Hon. Chepkong’a said it is a point of order and not a point of information. So, I will allow him and I hope it is a point of order.

I thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. As you know, I come from Eldoret East District where the land is purportedly said to have been grabbed. As you know, we were not consulted before this petition was brought here. It would have been fair if Hon. Kisang would have informed the Members of Parliament; Hon. Tiren and myself---

( Loud consultations )

Order! What is out of order? Let me hear what is not in order.

There is something seriously out of order.

Declare your interest!

Order! I am waiting to here what is out of order. Can I hear him out, Members?

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I am raising a very serious point of order. The Member of Parliament who has read the petition has not disclosed that he actually lives in Eldoret East District, Uasin Gishu County. He wants the land to go to a place where he does not live. He needs to disclose his interest.

No!

How does that help the petitioners?

Hon. Deputy Speaker, he is not making a full disclosure that he is a resident of Eldoret East District, where the land falls. The Hon. Member wants to take away land from Eldoret East District, where he is a resident to a different district.

Hon. Chepkong’a, you are a very experienced lawyer, but I think that is a point of argument and it has nothing to do with a point of order. Hon. Members, we will disregard the point of order by Hon. Chepkong’a. From the way you are beginning to react it certainly seems there are some serious issues being raised by the petitioners. Let the matter be referred to the Departmental Committee on Lands. All those arguments that you want to bring forth on the Floor can be taken to the Committee meeting and any information they may require from the Departmental Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Co-operatives can be provided at that level.

Hon. Members, let us leave the petition at that. We have committed it to the Departmental Committee on Lands. The other petition was from the Member for Bomet East, Hon. Bernard Bett.

AUDITING OF KTDA/SUBSIDIARY COMPANIES The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I, the undersigned, on behalf of the citizens of Kenya and in particular small-scale tea farmers in Bomet County, draw the attention of the House to the following:- (i) THAT, in 1999 the Government introduced a policy paper on tea liberalisation geared towards tea industry reforms to ensure efficiency and better returns to the tea farmers. This led to the amendment of the Tea Act (CAP.433). (ii) THAT, in 2000 the Government privatised the Kenya Tea Development Authority (KTDA) giving rise to the Kenya Tea Development Agency. (iii) THAT, the Kenya Tea Development Agency is responsible for the management of the small-holder tea sub-sector and in particular the production, processing and marketing of high quality tea and management of tea farming. (iv) THAT, the Tea (Amendment) Act, 2011 does not provide for the ownership and administrative aspects of tea factories and/or agencies.

Order, Hon. Members! I know it is the first day of this week when you are meeting but can we, please find a quiet place to do our consultations? This is because we cannot hear the petition.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I will continue. (v) THAT, the Kenya Tea Development Agency (KTDA) appears to be micromanaging the affairs of the agency and has thus failed in its mandate. (vi) THAT, a few individuals have conspired to withhold information with regard to shareholding, equity and rights from these small- scale farmers and have fraudulently edged out some farmers by registering their factories without consulting the stakeholders. (vii) THAT, the KTDA is allegedly mismanaging the tea factories and tea subsidiary companies leading to low tea prices. (viii) THAT, tea farmers no longer enjoy their rights and this has led to declined tea returns. (ix) THAT, in 2007, the Government constituted a taskforce to reform the tea sector and boost small-scale farmers’ returns. The taskforce recommended the establishment of subsidiary companies with the main membership being farmers. These companies comprised of Greenland Fedha Limited, Majani Insurance Limited, KTDA Power Generating Company Limited, Chai Trading Company Limited, KTDA Management Service Limited, Kenya Tea Packaging Limited and the Tea Research Institute. (x) THAT, implementation of these recommendations has led to confusion and uncertainty in the tea sector which needs to be resolved. (xi) Noting that the issues in respect of which this petition is made are not pending before any court of law or any constitutional or legal body, your humble petitioners pray that Parliament, through the Departmental Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Cooperatives:- (a) Recommends an audit of the Kenya Tea Development Agency and the subsidiary companies. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

(b) Establishes how the Kenya Tea Development Agency (KTDA) which is a private agency acquired the rights to tea factories owned by small-scale farmers. (c) Establishes the method used in registration and incorporation of farmers factories. (d) Reviews/repeals any legislation in regard to the tea sector. And your petitioners will ever pray.

Thank you, Hon. B.K. Bett. I believe that, that is rightfully in the Departmental Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Cooperatives. You will follow due process. You know the rules on how long you are supposed to stay with a petition. Those are the only petitions I had. Before we move on to the next Order, I can see that we have many guests in our galleries. In the Speaker’s Gallery, we have students from Kambau Mixed Day Secondary School from Meru County and Segero Adventist Secondary School from Uasin Gishu County. In the Public Gallery, we have Our Lady of Mercy, Kebirigo Boarding Primary School from Nyamira County, the Sunrise Academy from Elgeyo Marakwet County, Father Lelei Toror Kaiboi from Nandi County and Bethel Primary School from Kericho County. You are all welcome to the National Assembly. Next Order!

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table of the House:- The Human Resource Management Professionals Election of the Council Regulations, 2015 and the Explanatory Memoranda. The Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Kenya Pipeline Company Limited for the year ending 30th June, 2014, and the Certificate therein. The Report of the Audit-General on the Financial Statements of the Kenya Meat Commission for the year ending 30th June, 2014, and the Certificate therein. The Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the Retirement Benefits Authority for the year ending 30th June, 2014, and the Certificate therein. The Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Tourism Fund for the year ending 30th June, 2014, and the Certificate therein. The Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Tana Water Service Board for the year ending 30th June, 2014, and the Certificate therein and, The Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the Stores and Services Fund under the Ministry of Lands, Housing and Urban Development for the year ending 30th June, 2013, and the Certificate therein. Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Order, Members! Hon. Members, I do not want to result to sending somebody out of the Chamber. However, this level of consultation is going to force me to do that. Please let us respect this Chamber. Find somewhere where you can consult quietly. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Just for the record, the Human Resource Management Professionals Election of the Council Regulations, 2015 will be committed to the Committee on Delegated Legislation. The Papers on the Kenya Pipeline, the KMC, Retirement Benefits Authority, Tourism Fund and Tana Water Service Board will be referred to the PIC. The Paper on the Ministry of Lands will be referred to the PAC. Let us move on to the next Order!

On a point of order, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Hon. Kanini Kega, what is your point of order?

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. Last week on Tuesday, I presented a Motion under Standing Order No.87. Unfortunately, the Motion has not found its way into the House and when I look at today’s Order Paper, it is not there. It was a Motion to discuss the conduct of an Hon. Member under Standing Order No.87.

Which Member?

The Member for Garissa Township, Hon. Aden Duale. Unfortunately, I have not seen it on the Order Paper. I want an assurance that it is not lost somewhere because I made an inquiry in all the offices today. Unfortunately, I did not find it. I want the assurance of this House through your Office, Hon. Deputy Speaker, that the Motion will find its way to this House very soon. Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

That is okay, Hon. Kanini Kega. I believe this is a House of rules and I can assure you that I have not seen it in the Office of the Speaker. Should it find its way to the Office of the Speaker, it will be dealt with in accordance with our rules. That is an assurance that it has not reached us.

Hon. Members, let us not get excited. The Office of the Speaker does not have a decision on any Motion. If it meets all the rules, it shall find itself on the Floor of the House. Hon. Members, can we move to the next Order?

Yes.

Order, Hon. Members! Hon. Mwangangi, please resume your seat. Hon. Members, we have several Bills and Motions that were just left without putting of the Question. Let us be patient so that we can dispense of them. I now want to put the Question.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Let us move on to the next Order.

Hon. Members, can those coming in do it quickly? We have several Questions to put.

Let us move on to the next Order.

Again, Hon. Members, please settle down. I said we have several Questions to put.

Hon. K’Oyoo, please take your seat. Order, Hon. Members! Again, I want to put the Question.

Hon. Members, we are still putting Questions.

Let us go on.

We have not finished the exercise. Can Hon. Members get seated so that we can finish this exercise?

On a point of order, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

What is your point of order, Hon. Mbadi?

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I am asking for your ruling and direction on the conduct of committee members. This House forms committees to do business on its behalf. Seriousness needs to be shown by committee members, especially when a Report of a committee The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

On a point of order, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

What is your point of order, Hon. Sakakaja?

Hon. Deputy Speaker, as much as I understand where my colleague on the other side is coming from on this matter, he has been in this House longer than me. However, Standing Orders stipulate that once a Committee has laid a Report in the House, it becomes the property of the entire House and it is not a property of the Committee anymore. He might have a different interest on the issue of the ‘Hustler’s Jet’, but once a Committee has tabled its Report, the Report is a property of the House. The Report has been debated. That is why the entire House has to take a vote. The House has almost unanimously voted no to that Report. So, you should not have sour grapes. It has failed. We should move to the next Order. Members of the Committee have the liberty to change their minds on the Floor of the House.

Order! Your point has been made. Can we listen to Hon. Makali?

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. With all due respect to Hon. Sakaja, the Chairperson of The National Alliance (TNA) party, the issue being raised by Hon. Mbadi is totally different from what he is commenting on. What we are saying is this: If you are a Member of a Committee, you have sat in many sessions of that Committee deliberating on an issue, you have been paid the Committee’s allowance and you go against your own Report which you have said is the right report, we need to be guided by the Chair on how we deal with such a situation. It is really bad when we see members of the same Committee voting against a report. I would not mind myself voting against it because I am just a Member of this House. Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Order, Members! We should not belabour the point. Hon. Pukose, do you have something different to add to this argument? We have heard the arguments of both sides.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, when the Question was put, the choices were ‘Nay’ and ‘Aye’. I do not see any Member of the Committee who voted against the Report because there is no record to that effect. Secondly, what Standing Order compels a Member to vote in a certain way? I am yet to come across any.

Hon. Wandayi, do you want to say something different from what has been said or you just want to reiterate what has been said?

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I agree with my friend and colleague, Hon. Mbadi, who has raised this matter. It is true that a Member could change his or her mind. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Your point has been made. Let us hear a lady’s voice. Hon. Kajuju.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, under Standing Order No. 1, this is a House guided by rules. We have already adopted the Motion appearing at Order No. 14 as per this Order Paper. I do not know what exactly the Orange Democratic Movement (ODM) Chairperson has issues with. However, we need to know what Standing Orders they are using to raise the issues they are raising or to compel a Member to vote in a certain way after a Committee has adopted a Report. We need your guidance, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Order, Members! Order, Hon. Ken Obura! Hon. Members, the point that has been made by Hon. Kajuju holds water. What we can say in this matter is that the horse has bolted; we have dispensed of with the matter. The Speaker has no vote. The votes are with the Members and the House is the final deciding place. So, once a matter has been decided by this House, we go by that decision. As to the conscience of Members of a committee who sign and change their minds afterwards, that is a matter that can be canvassed at the committee level. If you do not agree with a report, show your disagreement and let that be appended in the report so that we do not get into the situation that we find ourselves in. However, it is upon each Member to make a decision based on their conscience on how they vote on any matter that comes before this House. I so direct. Thank you. Can we move on? Hon. Members, remember the rules that we agreed upon. The Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Labour and Social Welfare has 10 minutes, all other Members have five minutes each and debate on the Sessional Paper will take one hour. The Hon. Tiya Galgalo.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to move the following Motion:- The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Yes, Hon. Gatobu.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I rise to strongly second and also support Sessional Paper No.2 of 2014 that has been moved by the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Labour and Social Welfare. I am also a Member of that Committee. I wish to start by first thanking this honourabe House since as you observed last week, it is now focusing on the real issues that regard Kenyans. One of the strongest statements by the son of this soil, the President of the United States, is that the solution to Kenyan problems lies with Kenyans themselves. From the Departmental Committee on Labour and Social Welfare, we propose to the House to adopt this Sessional Paper which seeks to look at the most vulnerable people in this The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Nyikal.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity. I am a very happy person today as you may know. I must congratulate the Committee and the Ministry of Labour, Social Security and Services for completing the work that we started in 2007 The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Your time is up!

Hon. Deputy Speaker, this is so dear to me and I beg you to just give me two more minutes.

Having been the Permanent Secretary in that Ministry when this was all happening, I give you two more minutes.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, we have the workmen’s compensation, bursaries, school-feeding programme, work for food, the Kazi kwa Vijana and the agricultural inputs, which are part of this social protection. This has been going on without a policy and a legal framework. There has been an argument, particularly with the cash transfers, that we are giving handouts. I want to assure my colleagues here that the cash transfers are economic investments and the people who benefit most are business people in the areas where the transfers take place. In Brazil, this process, in a large-scale, took 16 million out of poverty. At the end of President Lula’s term, the people came out in numbers to ask him to go for a third term. Of The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Nyikal, you have made your point. Yes, Hon. Pukose.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, at the outset, I support this sessional paper. This is a very key sessional paper. It is the right way to go. Just as Hon. Nyikal has put it, we have been doing these cash transfers to the elderly and performing other functions without a legal framework. This is timely for this House. This money has actually changed a lot of lives of the elderly people in the rural areas since it was introduced. It is not enough and it has not covered all the elderly people. In some areas, for example in my constituency, all the elderly people and even some as old as 90, have not been assisted. It has not been adequately addressed. However, if this House takes it seriously in the budget-making process and ensures that we give adequate funding to these groups, all those who are more than 65 years old will be taken care of all over the country. This is going to change many things. In addition to this, one of the other key areas that we need to look at is the issue of universal healthcare. When we do our budgeting, we provide money through the Ministry of Health. For example, in the last financial year, the Ministry of Health provided the National Hospital Insurance Fund (NHIF) with about Kshs500 million for social protection. Out of that money, about Kshs319 million is what was absorbed. The remaining balance was not taken. That actually makes it very wanting. Again, we need to look at the framework in which this money can be accessed. This is because one of the difficulties that came in was how NHIF was going to recruit these people. They started by themselves going to recruit instead of using the data that is already with the Ministry of Labour, Social Security and Services, which will just absorb that and look at the numbers that are there. That way, each and every person would be on the NHIF cover. Therefore, these elderly people would also access good healthcare services without necessarily spending the money that they have been given for their own benefits to take care of their health. That is an area that the Government needs to address seriously because when these people were given The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you. Before I move to Hon. Michael Onyura, I recognise the presence of visitors. In the Public Gallery, we have Maduwa Primary School from Budalangi Constituency, Busia County; Mbukuni Primary School from Chuka/Igambang’ombe Constituency, Tharaka Nithi County and Kiayata Primary School from Kiharu Constituency, Muranga County. In the Speaker’s Gallery, we have Kiini Secondary School from Maara Constituency, Tharaka Nithi County and, St. Thomas ACK Church from Kiambu County You are all welcome to the National Assembly. Hon. Onyura, you can now make your contribution.

Thank you very much, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I rise to support Sessional Paper No.2 on social support. I agree with Hon. Nyikal that this is a very important Paper because, among other things, it is in fulfilment of the constitutional provision that gives every citizen the right to a decent living, the right to live in dignity and the right not to suffer unnecessarily from want. I also noticed the observations by the Committee that it is in fulfilment of certain international provisions both at the UN level and even at the regional level. This is a good step towards fulfilling those areas where we have promised our population. I know that there have been certain initiatives towards this. The one that comes out very obviously at the top has been this one of cash transfers, where the elderly are being supported by being given some funds to keep them going. It is a very good programme. The only problem is the way it is being run. It has not been done transparently. This is because we are asked many questions. When we go to meet our voters and particularly the elderly, they actually wonder what criterion is being used. Why is it that my neighbour who has the same things I have, including the age and perhaps I am even older than him, gets the cash transfer and I do not? There is need for awareness and civic education on how exactly this should be done. Personally, I have been thinking that if the funds are not enough and we cannot take care of everybody who is 65 years old and above, what we should then do is just go by age. I think The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I rise to support this Sessional Paper on National Social Protection Policy. This is certainly a very important policy. I agree with all the speakers before me that there is need to have this policy in place, to ensure that the less fortunate in the society are well protected. The special groups that require social security include Orphans and Vulnerable Children (OVC), the vulnerable groups such as the elderly who have no one to take care of them, and the severely disabled persons who are in our communities and, of course, the unemployed youth who are many. I would urge that we put more effort and resources on the issue of social services because it is very important. Our country is not among the richest countries. In fact, according to the parameters that are shown at the back of the sessional paper, our poverty level is 46.7 per cent, which is not good. Our GDP is 2.6 per cent and it has not improved much since Independence. Since we are a poor country, it means that our vulnerable groups are many and so are the needy persons. So, we should have a policy in place that takes care of those groups of people. At the moment, there are programmes that are going on such as the cash transfers, but they do not cover everybody who deserves to have these cash transfers. We also have the OVC programmes which need to be strengthened. At the moment, as I look around, I find that the NGOs are the ones which mainly take care of the children who are orphaned. We need the Government to have in place a system that takes care of vulnerable groups. As the Constitution says, everybody has a right to live well and to live freely. It is, therefore, important that we have adequate resources put aside, so that these groups of people can get support. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker for giving me an opportunity to support this sessional paper and make my contribution not only as a Member of Parliament, but also as a Member of the Committee responsible for social welfare. The country is making steps towards the right direction in taking care of vulnerable people in the society. A country that does not move with the below average people is a country that will never go far. As a country, we need to make sure that as the economy grows, every citizen of this country gets to grow with it, otherwise we will have a small percentage of people going forward and a majority of them remaining behind. With that, we are doomed to fail. We have talked about the cash transfer of the elderly people. I think it is a good move, but we also need to look at it and see how we can help these people become better. It is very unfortunate to give Kshs2,000 every month to somebody because when they get sick they cannot afford to pay their hospital bills. They will still come to you as a Member of Parliament, or they will go around begging for money. We need to restructure this so that whosoever benefits from the cash transfer for the elderly and orphans should also be a beneficiary of universal healthcare. If they are given Kshs2,000 some of that money should be guaranteed so that it goes towards getting them a medical insurance so that when they get sick they go to hospital because they have a medical insurance. Otherwise we will be giving people handouts of Kshs2,000, they use it to drink or use it for their own needs and will not have money to pay hospital bills when they fall sick. At the end of the day, we will not be helping them. We know there are two things that people need which are not a favour from the Government, but are rights as enshrined in our Constitution. These are providing healthcare to our people, education and food. If we cannot provide those things to our people, then as a country, we will be failing. But we need to look at better ways of helping these people. If the Government is giving these people money, it needs to know what these people need. As Members of Parliament, before our time comes to an end, we need to enact good laws that ensure that everybody in this country has a life insurance, health insurance and education insurance, so that their children can go to school. If we do those things, then we will be moving this country forward. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. David Gikaria.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity to rise and also give my input in the sessional paper on National Social Protection Policy. Article 43 is very clear. It is a constitutional right for this Government to give social security to Kenyans.

We were in a committee today in the morning and we were talking on how we are going to actualise Article 100 which talks about women, youth, persons with disabilities and the marginalised communities. This sessional paper is very important. We should implement the recommendations and observations of the Committee. One of them is transparency and accountability in terms of social interventions. Without addressing most of these issues of accountability, we will be doing a lot of zero work where most of the money will be budgeted for the vulnerable groups, but it will never reach them. It is important to critically look at the transparency and accountability aspect of the social protection interventions. Without doing that much, then we will just be going round and trying to---

Secondly, it is also important to address the issue of Internally Displaced People (IDPs), which is a group that emerged after the political wars that were there in the past. You will find out that much as they have been given some farms and a small token to go and start life, this is another group that also needs to be considered. This is a group that is also suffering. I am saying that because in Nakuru County, we have housed thousands of IDPs. As we look at the policy of how to go about the social protection, we also need to look at the aspect of the IDPs and how they can be protected socially. That is because if you go to the various camps that are within the county, there are no facilities at all - neither health nor schools. You find that most of the children who are from those families are suffering so much. As we look into the accountability The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you very much. Leader of the Minority Party.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this chance to contribute to this very important Motion on the adoption of Sessional Paper No. 2. The policies and programmes that have been designed to protect the vulnerable and the poor people from the risks and the difficulties they face in life are very good, but are not coordinated. However, it is a very good way of incorporating all the people who are under risk. The cash transfer programme has been a success, but I appeal to the Government to increase it from Kshs2000 to Kshs5000. That amount is very little.

The other thing I would want to say about the cash transfer is that it should be decentralised from the district headquarters. Those are old poor people who do not have a lot of resources. They travel long distances and waste a lot of time and money. Wherever they go to receive cash, they do not have facilities like toilets. They go to Kenya Commercial Bank (KCB). In Kitui, they suffer a lot because they have to take boda boda persons, pay their fare and yet, they are going to receive Kshs2,000. They spend the whole day there. So, I want to urge the Government to decentralise those services so that those elderly people can get their money from the constituency. That way, they can save some money and time. The Bill of Rights in the Constitution of Kenya, 2010, gives Kenyans a right to be served so that they do not suffer poverty, wants and so forth. We have learnt that Kenya is one of the most uneven countries whereby a small population of 10 per cent controls 90 per cent of the resources. Through those social security programmes, that gap can be reduced by taxing the rich and giving those resources to the poor.

In line with the Constitution, every person has a right to social security. The State needs to provide appropriate social security to the vulnerable groups. We cannot say Kenya is a poor country. Even when President Obama was here, he said that Kenya was on the right economic trajectory. We are a country that is endowed with a lot of resources and all we need to do is to exploit them. The greatest resource that we have is the human capital. Kenya is home to Mpesa and so many other innovations. It has a lot of creative people. So, it is not a poor country. All we need is to get our act together so that we can develop our human capital and export it to areas where there are shortages of labour like Europe - where the birth rate is declining and they need labour. Through this sessional paper, we have the right policy. If the Government does not The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

That is all the time we had for you, Leader of the Minority. Member for Kilome.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. We have discussed the issue of human rights in several meetings and conferences and nothing has been implemented. I thank the Member who saw the need to bring this sessional paper on the Floor of the House. I will speak on only one issue, namely the issue of the older generation. If you could allow me to read Article 57 of our Constitution, which refers to the older generation, it reads:- “The State shall take measures to ensure the rights of older persons–– ( a ) to fully participate in the affairs of society; ( b ) to pursue their personal development; ( c ) to live in dignity and respect and be free from abuse; and, ( d ) to receive reasonable care and assistance from their family and the State”.

When we were campaigning for the new Constitution, we talked so much and persuaded the older generation to support the Constitution so that they would benefit when it was passed. The cash transfer programme is going on. In my constituency, it has only covered 660 persons. The old people are looking at leaders, for instance, I, as if I have been cheating them. I support this sessional paper and request that the coverage be expanded to even cover three times the current coverage, so that many people can benefit out of that. Many people retire at the age of 60 or 70 years and most of them have not invested. When they get to the village with their families, they get a lot of problems. They think that everybody is covered by the cash transfer. So, I support this sessional paper because it covers even the people with disabilities.

Last year, we passed the Bill on persons with disabilities and yet, many of them are suffering on the ground. Nobody cares about their welfare. Once this sessional paper is adopted, I am sure many of those groups are going to benefit. I support.

Hon. Members, the House having resolved that this business be transacted within one hour and having heard several Members participate in this debate and the time allocated having elapsed, I now order that the Mover be called upon to reply. Mover, the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Labour and Social Welfare, where are you? Or it is the Vice-Chairperson?

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I wanted to donate some few minutes to different Members.

No. This has come twice when you are on your watch. So, let me tell you that according to the Standing Orders, when the House resolves that a particular period of time be used within the debate, you do not have time to donate. When it is on the converse or when the House does not resolve, then you are free to donate. So, will you proceed please?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I wish to thank the Members who have contributed to this. I know there is a lot of interest from the different Members and that is why I was making a request to donate some minutes. However, from the discussions, the The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Order! Hon. Chepkong’a, can you be seated?

Next Order!

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

Why is the Leader of the Majority Party sitting down? Order! Leader of the Majority Party, proceed.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. Hon. Makali is a very good friend of mine.

Hon. Makali knows that he is out of order because the only way to receive the Speaker’s recognition is by pressing the intervention button and then I can see you here on the intervention list. That is the only way. You cannot raise your hand or attempt to say many things---

You are not in a classroom. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

In the process, you are intimidating the Leader of the Majority Party. Let us hear him anyway.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, after the visit by President Obama, I am one of the very few people who cannot be intimidated. I shook the hand of the most powerful man on earth.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

Absolutely. Member for Kitui Central, can we now hear you on a point of order?

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I apologize. I meant Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. When we were discussing the Companies Bill, we changed the timing for debate and the moving of the Bill. This Bill is as equally important. It is a very voluminous Bill. I do not know whether we are going by the same rules or this is a different case. If it is a different case, I would plead that you allow us to make some amendments to the timings. This is quite an important Bill to this country. I do not know whether I am in order or I need to be guided.

Thank you very much for saying that, but because you have been in the House for long, I will not spare you. This is a new Bill. The other one that you are talking about is a different one. Nothing stops you, Hon. Makali, from moving that Procedural Motion. We will deal with it accordingly. You are a conscientious member of the Assembly and so, you know what should be done.

Thank you for your guidance, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. With that advice, I propose that we change the timing for---

Order! I need to get you a mentor in the Assembly to help you go around your issue. If you can cross the Chamber and consult with the Leader of the Majority Party then you would know what to do. First of all, you cannot move the Procedural Motion from where you are. You cannot rise from where you are and move that Procedural Motion unless I have seen the text of it and approved it. Only then will you be ready to move it. However, you will get into problems because the Standing Orders demand that the Procedural Motion is moved before the Bill is moved. That is now business that you need to know how to conduct. Leader of the Majority Party, please proceed.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. Hon. Makali is one of the best brains that we have in the Budget and Appropriations Committee. I think he must have come here straight from Kitui Central. I know him to be a man who prepares thoroughly. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that the Insolvency Bill be now read a Second Time. The Bankruptcy Act, Cap 53 is what currently governs any matter relating to insolvency. But, over time, that Act has been found to be unsatisfactory in as far as procedures outlined in the same Act are concerned. The procedures are cumbersome, time-consuming and costly. That is what this Bill addresses. It deals with those issues in as far as this Bill is concerned. The Bill went through the taskforce on the Companies Act which the House has dealt with in the Second Reading. The same taskforce dealt with insolvency and partnership. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Member for Turkana County.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I rise to second this Bill. I wish the Leader of the Majority Party would take the gender rule principle further beyond just giving me this chance. I want to support and second this Bill. It may look voluminous and complex, but this is a Bill that simplifies the process of insolvency. It reduces the long bureaucracies and processes. What excites me about this Bill is the opportunity given to bankrupt persons - it is not that I am bankrupt. It gives bankrupt persons a chance to seek ways of bailing themselves out and restoring their normal status. This Bill requires expertise in practising insolvency. It eliminates the possibility of quacks and brokers coming into the limelight with no qualification. The Bill categorises liquidation as well as its processes. It clearly indicates the nature of bankruptcy and makes provisions applicable to companies in liquidation. It further establishes offences in relation to conduct before and during liquidation. This Bill enforces companies’ obligation to lodge documents with the Registrar of Companies and gives provisions for appeals to the Court of Appeal against decisions. With those few remarks, I beg to second.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I have a request list here that is not very long. I just want to know if these hon. Members are ready and willing to speak to this Bill or if they may have requested a chance for another debate altogether. They are: Hon. Members for Igembe North, Emurua Dikirr, Kiminini, Alego Usonga, Turkana South, Ainabkoi and Kwanza constituencies. Okay, let us go through that list as it is. Hon. Member for Igembe North Constituency?

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I rise to support this Bill. This is a very important Bill in the sense that it sets this provision for the independent administrators to take control of business, equitable distribution and liquidation among creditors in case of the insolvency of the entity concerned. It also provides the mechanism for indentifying and prosecuting managers or directors who, through their illegal actions, have contributed to insolvency. In short, this Bill is important because it obligates people to take responsibility. If people are being entrusted with responsibility for running public or private entities, they have a responsibility in case the entities fall through their actions. Like you have seen in the history of this Republic since Independence, many people who have been entrusted with companies and many entities, especially financial institutions or big companies, have messed. If those entities which have been destroyed since Independence would have survived, this country would have been better than it is today. We are in a country where people who have committed financial crime and grave crimes like destroying entities and stealing money from public entities end up being rewarded. To a large extent, Kenyans are not bothered to know where somebody gets their wealth. What they want to know is whether you have it or not. Having a law like this in place makes the people get involved. To take responsibility is good. At the moment, we have the case of Kenya Airways Limited (KQ) which is on its knees; the case of Mumias Sugar Company (MSC) and other companies which are in trouble. At the end of the day, the people who have been involved just go scot-free. They move from one job and go to a higher one or participate in elections many times. If we have strengthened laws like what is being proposed here, we have the possibility of making people who have committed these crimes take responsibility. We have had leaders coming to Kenya to learn from it. Like the recent visit by the American President, President Barack Obama comparing Kenya to South Korea in the 1960s. The Koreans and Malaysians who were coming to learn from us are far much ahead of us today. It is not just because they have the laws. Having laws is not important.

That hon. Member is obviously out of order. Who is this Member who is obviously out of order? It is just because I am on national television that I did not name you. Do not do that again. Okay, proceed.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I am talking about having strict laws. After we come up with a law like this, we should ensure it is implemented. At the end The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Member for Kitui Central.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this chance to add my voice to this debate. At the outset, I support the Insolvency Bill, 2014. It is a very important Bill to this country bearing in mind that we have just concluded debate on the Companies Bill. This Bill is very important because it is reviewing the Bankruptcy Act (Cap. 53 of the Laws of Kenya). It seeks to encourage dissolution of non-viable and inefficient businesses for the benefit of creditors, shareholders and directors. Earlier, I had made an attempt to see whether we could get more time to debate this Bill because it is very voluminous. I will just focus on three areas which I think are very important and which are going to add value to the way we conduct our affairs when it comes to dissolution of companies. This Bill provides the legal framework for insolvency to ensure that the process is done in a professional way. It authorizes insolvency practitioners and professionals and says what their qualifications should be, so that the process is done by professionals and people who have the right qualifications and competencies. At the same time, the Bill makes provision for the appointment of bankruptcy trustees to make sure that the estates of the people are administered properly and there is proper record-keeping of the processes. The Bill also provides for creditors meetings, which is very important. This is a meeting where creditors will come together and be given information about what is happening to the company and, at the same time, make a decision on how to take care of their interests, the interests of the shareholders and everybody else. This Bill makes sure that there is a public register of persons admitted into the non-asset procedures. So, for the first time, we are going to have a register of people who have been admitted into non-asset procedures to make sure that The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Member for Emurua Dikirr.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I also rise to support this Bill. This Bill, as has been said by other Members, amalgamates two Bills. That is why it is very voluminous. It is important, especially to the business community in this country. This Bill amalgamates the Bankruptcy Act and the Companies Act. We have always wanted to review our laws, and especially the laws that govern businesses and so many other activities in the country. This important Bill will take care of the needs, changing times and dynamics that we normally have in doing business. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Member for Alego Usonga.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this Bill. In contributing to the Bill I want to comment, at the outset, that the biggest gainer in this Bill is the local risk-taker who invests his seed money into a business and the local entrepreneur who tries to put money to grow his company. In looking at all these things I will restrict myself to the qualifications of the receivers, the introduction or the stage that has been set for insolvency practitioners to turn around companies and not necessarily sell them of when they take them. I will also look at the time-frame. I will also look at the fact that the interests of the shareholders are now being taken into account in this Bill. I will also look at the new introduction to the Insolvency Bill - that is the general requirements to turn around businesses.

To begin with, it is very good that qualifications of insolvency practitioners have been introduced in Part II (6)(1) from (a) to (c). It sets out the qualifications expected of insolvency practitioners. Section 6(2) from (a) to (c) sets out disqualification. What has been happening is that anybody could be appointed as a receiver to a company. Those people ended up running down the companies and neither the shareholders nor the creditors benefited. They ended up stripping the assets of a company because there was no rule at all. Some of them were not qualified. This is now a good thing that sets out that they must now be qualified. The law also sets out the provisions under which some people can be disqualified.

In Clause 5(1) of the same part, there is a penalty against those who are going to masquerade as qualified insolvency practitioners. They are going to be fined and expected to pay Kshs5 million. At Clause 8 of the same part, the Bill stipulates that an insolvency practitioner should apply to the official receiver. I will be bringing an amendment to this. This should not be left to the official receiver to approve the insolvency practitioner. Rather, it should be a panel or a committee within the official receiver’s office. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Member for Turkana South.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity. I rise to support this Insolvency Bill. First, it provides a fair and transparent means of declaring an entity or an individual bankrupt. You will remember that when we were aspiring to be Members of Parliament, there were conditions in the Constitution that for one to be eligible, he or she must not be bankrupt. If you are bankrupt, you are not supposed to vie for any elective post. When we were picking certificates like the certificate for integrity or loan clearance, I asked myself where I would get a certificate that confirms that I am not bankrupt. This Bill provides professional entities that will ensure that a company or an individual is bankrupt or not. It also provides avenues where an entity or an individual will apply for the certificate. Nobody in this nation is ready to be associated with bankruptcy. This is because it undermines the dignity of the individual, an entity or an organisation. This Bill provides transparent and fair avenues for a company to be declared insolvent. If you want to take a loan or a mortgage, one of the conditions that you are given is to value your assets. It should be open. We must get a professional entity that is qualified, respectable and that can handle this issue of insolvency, so that you choose which one will take care of people who will want to witch-hunt an entity, organisation or individual. So, when you have professional entities that will handle this issue, you will be free as an individual, or as an entity, to go to any that you know will do this work in a way that is expected by every Kenyan. After it has done that, you are given, for example, a certificate. Once you are given this certificate, it will be a basis for you to confirm the integrity of that organisation either as a financial institution or whatever office. You will already be prepared, and any entity, company or individual will not just get into an organisation and say you are bankrupt.

I am very happy with this Bill because Members of Parliament, or people who want to be leaders, cannot actually be frustrated by any other person. This is because you will prepare early. You will go and request a confirmation that you are not bankrupt. You will have that certificate and information early, so that you can do anything like take a loan, if you want it.

Member for Turkana South, does this Bill suggest that people who are not bankrupt will receive certificates saying that they are not bankrupt?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, it might suggest so or not but I am here to also give an opinion. I am here to add value to the Bill. I have analysed the contents.

I am trying to get your train of thought, and also to steer you clear of irrelevancy. In which part of this Bill does it suggest that people who are not bankrupt will receive certificates saying that they are not bankrupt?

Okay. This is what I mean, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I might have used the word that people do not understand. However, when you are cleared as a company through the procedures that have been underlined in the Bill after, for example, a professional body that has undertaken this process has finished the process, what is the conclusion? That is what I mean, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I am making it better; I am of the opinion that we The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Let us have the Member for Nakuru Town East.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity to give my contribution on the Bill. Much has been said about this Insolvency Bill. We are in an era where we are trying to promote young people and encourage people not to think about white collar jobs only. We are encouraging people to go into business and earn a living, and not wait to be employed in some quarters. In the past, people have gone to banks to get loans, borrowed money from friends or used previous savings to start some companies. They look forward to starting companies with the thinking that every other company that has been started will be very successful. When you go into so many other details of trying to understand or get some feasibility study on how you can acquire some business knowledge so that you can start, you end up borrowing so much and finally the business does not do very well. Maybe you are in a company where you are a group of people who have come together to start a company for purposes of making profit, but eventually they end up not realising their objectives. They also end up in so many problems, and even put families in a lot of trouble; finally they are declared bankrupt because they never did their calculations correctly, or their companies are declared insolvent. The law that has been there to take care of this has not been very friendly. Now that we have the new Bill, with all that has been said by the Mover and the person who seconded, the Member from Turkana and the other speakers, I think this is a very important Bill that is coming to address most of the fears that every person has once their companies start doing badly, and they cannot meet their financial obligations. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to add my voice to this important Bill before the House. I want to start by briefly looking at the most interesting objects of this Bill. I want us to look at Clause 3. It provides for the operation of a framework for the efficient and equitable administration of the estates of insolvent natural persons and incorporated entities comprising natural persons, assets of insolvent companies and other bodies corporate that maintain a fair balance between the interests of those persons, entities, companies, bodies and those of other creditors. Clause 3(1) talks of enabling those persons and entities to continue to operate as going concerns, so that ultimately they may meet their financial obligations to their creditors in full or, at least, to the satisfaction of creditors and finally achieve a better outcome for the creditors as a whole than would be the case if those persons and entities were adjudged bankrupt. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Member for Lugari.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this important Bill. First of all, I would like to thank the Mover because he has given serious grounds on why we should introduce this Insolvency Bill that will lead to enactment of a law that will govern procedures used to declare a company insolvent, individuals bankrupt and the action that should be taken. The Bill has come at the right time, because our parastatals have been using annual financial reports to indicate whether a company is insolvent or not, based on the value of the assets compared to the turnover the company has been achieving. These two factors alone cannot determine effectively if a company is completely insolvent or not, because of what goes on behind the scenes. The directors of the company corruptly devalue the assets that the company has and sell some of them corruptly, so that they can have an opportunity to declare a company insolvent after looting it. This Insolvency Bill will give clear guidelines on how a company can be declared insolvent.

A company like Nzoia Sugar Company is, from their financial statement, not economically viable. It has already been declared insolvent based on the asset value and the turnover that the company is making. Muhoroni Sugar Company and Miwani Sugar Company are under receivership, but the receiver managers in the two companies are doing worse to the companies using the weaker sections of the Banking Act that governs insolvency issues. If we happen to enact this Insolvency Bill, we will save ailing companies like Kenya Airways and Mumias Sugar Company; we will dig deeper into the issues and find a solution. Currently, the banks that have provided loans to Mumias Sugar Company are now threatening to liquidate it, and send the receiver managers away. It was only the Deputy President and the President who intervened and negotiated with the banks to buy time, so that they could restructure their loans and work towards modalities of returning the company to profitability. I am happy this Insolvency Bill is addressing that issue that will help the companies go back to profit-making organisations. There will be introduction of efficiency under the Insolvency Bill instead of dragging them down the line of insolvency and closing down, because of the demands of the banks that had given them loans.

Individuals face a lot of problems. Currently, if you go to a bank and you need a loan from it, it can declare you closer to bankruptcy based on two issues: the gearing ratio and the Credit Reference Bureau (CRB) rating. That is what they have been doing. They just look at your gearing ratio and CRB rating and say: “We cannot loan you. You are bordering on bankruptcy. You are 98 per cent, 95 per cent or 65 per cent closer to bankruptcy based on the gearing ratio and the CRB rating.” However, this Bill introduces new mechanisms on how to value bankruptcy or insolvency of an individual, or an organisation which is a move that I welcome. I really support this initiative. It has come at a good time when we are seeing our major corporations in this country facing problems, which arise from the former management or board of directors. We saw Muhoroni Sugar Company selling a whole mill at a low value, so that they could allow receiver managers to take over the management of that company; it was purely looting because there was no clear framework on how you can declare a company insolvent. You The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I would like you to protect me from Hon. Wamunyinyi, because this is a serious affair.

Well, he is on a point of order which is his right to raise. I will hear him.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, you have heard what has been reported by this Hon. Member on the issue of Mumias Sugar Company and people involved in the sugar scandals. Is he, therefore, in order to continuously contribute and talk about Mumias Sugar Company and the problems it has when he is a major culprit?

What is he?

A major culprit. He has been mentioned in the reports on sugar scandals, some of which have been before this House.

Have those reports been tabled before this House?

Yes.

Are you referring to any in particular?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, given time, I can find some of the reports and file them before the House. Is he in order to continue to contribute and insinuate that he is talking for farmers when he himself is a major culprit?

All right. Let me help you. You may resume your seat. I am trying to appreciate your point of order, but in the absence of this specific report that you refer to, which alleges that the Member is a culprit, it is very difficult to understand where you are coming from. Your point of order seems to be whether there is something which looks like a conflict of interest. Until I see those reports, I am unable to adjudge the issue that you are bringing through. You could quickly run to the library and bring me references, I will entertain it when you are able to substantiate your point of order. Please, proceed.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, he has wasted my time. If he is not going to table the documents here--- The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

No, he has not wasted your time. I will give you more time.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, if he is not going to table any documents here, I pray that he be named. We should not misuse the Floor of the House to engage in irrelevancies.

Well, you are also now getting to another terrain. Order! Two wrongs do not make a right. You are also running into another terrain.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, he should come here with facts. I have never been summoned by any committee.

Well, you know the procedure of naming Members, which is another procedure in the Standing Orders. So, you follow that procedure if you want to name a Member.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I stand guided, but he should apologise because he has no evidence.

Well, he has nothing to apologise for, in my view, because he has done what is his right to do, except I have asked him to explain himself properly. He is not going to use the Floor of the House to besmirch Members. I am taking it seriously. It is in the HANSARD and I will expect him to explain himself. But that does not also give you the right to throw the same salvo at him.

Proceed, please.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for protecting me. We shall handle this matter inside here and outside Parliament squarely.

You know that whatever you do outside there is none of my business. I have used some of your minutes in that exchange. So, you will get about three minutes that we have consumed.

Proceed.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I am an experienced businessman and I understand what a financial report of a company means. I understand what insolvency means. I was saying that Mumias Sugar Company is leaning towards insolvency and banks have already written to it. I said that the President and his deputy intervened and negotiated with the banks to give more time to Mumias Sugar Company to sort out its balance sheet and restructure the loans. If they were paying Kshs2 million in a month, they should restructure it, so that they can pay Kshs500,000 and take like three or four years more. This will enable them to return to profitability through efficient cash flows to sustain the repayment of the loans. That is what I was saying. There are no procedures under the Banking Act governing insolvency. This means that external forces had to intervene to save the company. The Banking Act does not clearly specify the mechanism that can be used to renegotiate a loan to avoid the company heading towards insolvency and receiver managers being sent to it. People were just discussing haphazardly. You can go to a bank to renegotiate your loan and they tell you to pay them half of the loan or clear all the arrears before they can give you room to negotiate. If you do not have anything to pay, how will you pay a half? The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

All right; thank you very much. Let us have the Member for Ainabkoi.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I can see that there is a lot of animated discussion on issues that deal with governance. Unfortunately, the Insolvency Bill does not deal with governance. There is a difference between the two Bills.

I think it brings good governance into the management of bankruptcy and the companies under insolvency.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, that is correct, but the home of governance is at the Companies Bill, which is pending for a Third Reading. With regard to The insolvency Bill, this is where a company has failed in its governance and the official receiver, or the person who has been appointed to manage that particular company is seeking to resuscitate the company, so that it can survive turbulence in business. When a company takes undue risks by not making serious assessment as to what will happen in the near future, it falls under the Insolvency Bill. Be that as it may, this Bill seeks to protect the serious risk takers. As you know, in the business world, if you are looking for people who are going to discover new things, you need to have a high risk taker. This Bill seeks to protect persons who are seeking to innovate and initiate business, so that in the unlikely event that that person runs into serious problems that may lead to the collapse of their company, this Bill will kick in. In the words of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, once a President of the United States of America (USA), “Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the assessment that something else is more important than fear”. That is what all serious business people seek to do. They are courageous and this Bill is seeking to protect them. Bankruptcy in Kenya has been governed by the Bankruptcy Act, Chapter 53 of the Laws of Kenya, formerly the English Bankruptcy Act of 1930. This Act has never been amended. The 1930 English Law is what we have been using, yet in the United Kingdom (UK), several amendments have been done to the Act that was passed in 1930 in the UK. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I thank you for your researched and clear train of thought in this matter. The Member for Bahati.

Mhe. Naibu Spika wa Muda, nasimama kuunga mkono hii sheria ambayo itabadilisha mjadala huu kwa sababu ni muhimu sana. Watu wengi wameumia kwa miaka mingi. Kwa hivyo ninaunga mkono kwa kusema marekebisho haya ni ya maana na ninamshukuru mwenye kuipendekeza. Wananchi wameumia hata sisi tumekuwa kwa kampuni The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Member for Mukurweini.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to contribute for one minute and a half. Streamlining matters of business includes putting in place firm legislative mechanisms that enable institutionalisation of a sector.

We have experienced, in this country, crimes committed in public investments because of lack of tight mechanisms that allow corporations to fold up, be rehabilitated or transited to private ownership. Because of lack of these provisions, we have had very many State corporations mismanaged, deliberately bankrupted and eventually seized through quick processes that are actually originated to misappropriate public utilities.

Therefore, putting in place a system that allows the Judiciary - the courts of law - and also enables owners of companies, including the public sector investments, to be assured, so that there can be transitions that will hormanise businesses that fall because of climate that may be adversarial; for instance, circumstances of production or a challenge in the financial sector, or a collapse of financiers like the banking sector, enables us to create stability. Recently, in the previous Parliament, we were talking about over the counter bidding for private enterprises to enable transitions of family investments, and enable diversifications, so that we could create stability within our country; private investments should not get suffocated by the demise, or death, of the founder who happens to be, perhaps, the sole shareholder. You should allow families to expand.

These are the kinds of concepts that will enable us to stabilise our economy: giving stimulants to the private sector and public sector investments in enterprises that make profit.

Therefore, I support this Motion whose time is overdue. I strongly support.

Thank you very much. Member for Suba.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity also to make my contribution in the remaining time. One thing that must be said is that the Bankruptcy Act Cap.53 of the Laws of Kenya, was so insufficient in managing struggling businesses in this country. The repealed Companies Act and this law that we are just about to repeal have been some of the causes of disinterest in investing in this country. We have been talking a lot about improving the business environment in this country. One of the reasons why Kenya is not coming out as a competitive investment destination is because of the laws that appear outdated, and which make businesses very difficult in terms of registration and winding up. This Bill is coming at a time I would call “timely” although it is even late. We have talked The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Deputy Leader of the Majority Party, are you here on behalf of the Leader of the Majority Party, or are you here as the Member for Taveta?

Member for Suba, the hour glass went down.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I was going to give a reply. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I made a bad presumption that you were here as the Deputy Leader of the Majority Party, which you are. However, judging from the excited mood of the Member of Suba, it looks as if he has a few points to make, although he has made all his points now. I do not have enough time for you to respond; so, you will have to bear with me until such a time as we shall continue

Much obliged hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

So, I order that this business be printed on the next Order Paper for tomorrow afternoon for further debate. The time being 6.30 p.m., this House stands adjourned until Wednesday, 5th August 2015 at 9.30 a.m. It is so ordered.

The House rose at 6.30 p.m.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.