Order, Members! We do not seem to have the requisite quorum. I, therefore, order the Bell to be rung for 10 minutes.

Hon Members, since we seem not to have raised quorum after the 10 minutes, I order that the quorum Bell be rung for another five minutes.

Order, we have now reached the requisite quorum. Therefore, business will begin.

On that particular Order, there is something from the Whip of the Majority Party.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table of the House today Wednesday 20th July 2016:- Reports of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements in respect of the following institutions for the year ended 30th June 2015 and their certificate therein:- i. Kenya Rural Roads Authority. ii. The Ministry of Sports, Culture and Arts. iii. The Ministry of Labour, Social Security and Services. iv. The Ministry of Devolution and Planning, State Department of Devolution. v. The Constituencies Development Fund, Embakasi Central Constituency. vi. Karatina University. The Annual Reports and Financial Statements of the Kenya Literature Bureau for the year ended 2014/2015. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

The Annual Reports and Financial Statements of the Kenya National Trading Corporation for the years 2012/2013 and 2013/2014

Hon. Members on that particular Order, there was an agreement from the House Business Committee that this particular business be stood down because there was no report from the Committee. I order that it be stood down. So, we will proceed to the next Order.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

Sorry. Hon. Katoo, do you have an issue?

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. Indeed, in regard to Order No.9, that was the agreement of the House Business Committee, but it was also instructive. You ordered the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade to not hold this Bill to ransom. They should expedite and bring the Report to the House. This is a Bill that is very important for the affairs of this country. It was referred to that Committee a long time ago. I request through you that the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade be given a deadline on when they should bring this Report to the House, so that the HBC can list it for debate.

Hon. Wamunyinyi, do you want to say something on that? Proceed.

I can see you want to save your card from being utilised. Proceed on that Dispatch Box. Is it that you do not have it? Go back to where your card is and then use the intervention slot. That will save you.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

In the meantime, is the Chairman or the Vice-Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade in the House?

Is any ranking Member present before we go to any other Member? I can see Hon. Makali. He would most likely be in that Committee knowing his financial acumen. Okay. Let us hear Hon. Wamunyinyi.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I have no intention of challenging your directive on this. However, I would like to stress that it has been a general tendency that Members bring pieces of legislations here, but they are held to ransom by Committees. Committees delay submission of reports on various proposed Bills. I wish you make a direction not just on this Committee, but all other Committees. I would like you to add that legislation and Bills pending before the House will not be held back because of reports from Committees. When Bills are ready and Members are ready to prosecute them, they should be allowed to proceed with or without reports from the respective Committees. This will make sure that there is no unnecessary delay caused by Committees. We have seen some Committees delay submission of reports for their own reasons.

Okay. I may not make that kind of ruling that we proceed with or without reports from Committees on the last one. In some cases, which have implications of Article 114 of the Constitution, for example, it might be a little difficult. What can be done is to make sure Committees must process their reports and bring them before the House in good time. This is something that must be done. It is unfortunate that I will not be able to hold into a particular one. Now that we have this one on the Floor, I will make a ruling on it. That is why I wanted the Chairman, Vice-Chairperson or any Member of that Committee, so that we can see what to do. However, the fact that the Mover of the Bill, Hon. Jude Njomo, is not in the House makes it a little difficult. For us to say that that Report should be brought to the House quickly, I will not give timelines. I cannot see any Member who is willing to commit. I ask the Whip of the Majority Party who is in the House to make sure that is processed on behalf of the leadership of his side. We can leave that there. Let us go to the next Order.

Hon. Gumbo was on the Floor. He had six more minutes. I am not so sure if he is in the House. He does not seem to be in the House. I will proceed and give Members on the basis of their requests. We will start with Hon. (Dr.) Nyikal, the Member for Seme Constituency.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I had contributed on this.

What was your card doing? Did you want to contribute on the other?

I was anticipating the Bill that has just gone.

You had already contributed on this one?

Yes.

Let us go to the Member for Gatundu North, Hon. Njenga. I hope you will not be dealing with anything elections this morning. Proceed.

I had indicated to Hon. (Dr.) Nyikal that I came before him. He refused to withdraw for me, but nature has taken its course. I stand to support this Motion not because it is calling for economic diversification, but because of the role such institutions will play towards our economic growth and development. Economic growth and development come from economic diversification to hedge risks that are in this country. One of them is lack of revenue from as many corners as possible to finance the Exchequer and the development of our country. Secondly, there is wastage and loss of foreign currency. We will save by using that strong currency in order to gain from the capital growth and depreciation of our shilling. Last week, I learned that this country is importing fish from China in a big way. I am told that the fish we have in this country cannot even sustain us yet we know very well that the population of our country is growing. Our population is estimated at 80 million people in a few years. We know very well that from 1969 to today, our population has grown more than sevenfold. We want to create such institutions for posterity. I have wanted to be a fish farmer. I can see there is a gap in the market which I would like to fill. I know nothing about fish other than eating it. When I went round looking for an institution that can give me firsthand information, I was only referred to the County Government of Kiambu. From there, I was told I needed to go to the County Government of Nairobi. From there, I did not get further information. They are seeking information from the County Government of Homa Bay. If we had institutions to train our people on the need to expand fish farming, that would be much better. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Most of the money that we are giving to our young people has gone to waste, for example, the Youth Enterprise Development Fund (YEDF) and the Uwezo Fund. The people of Gatundu North Constituency have not been trained in anything else other than growing coffee, tea and dairy farming. Imagine what fish farming would be like if such information was available everywhere. We sometimes overexploit our seas and oceans to an extent they become of no economic use. Recently, there was such an overexploitation in Lake Naivasha which is a fresh water lake. Time has come for information to be made available to our people in the right order, quantity and quality, so that our country can move from the known to the unknown. The future population of our country is known in terms of we are going to be more than we are today. We are a young country which requires increased subsectors for improved livelihoods. Huge losses are being incurred because of failure to add value not only in fish farming, but in many sectors. For example, people in my constituency will grow pineapples and because we have never thought of value addition, people will buy them and add value in Nairobi by producing juice. If we have fish farming industries in Central Kenya, Nairobi, Kajiado and other areas, we can establish industries and create employment for our people. More importantly is the issue of preservation and wastage. This country is wasting a lot of its produce. We waste excess harvest any time we have a bumper harvest yet preservation and storage can be made easy. I recall the time when there was the Ministry of Cooperatives and Marketing with an agenda of preservation of our food products. Today, most of these functions have been devolved. Devolved or not, we need a national policy, roadmap and strategy that will enable our people to know when and what to produce in future. Recently, I put up a proposal before the Budget and Appropriations Committee that we need a Minimum Guaranteed Return (MGR) policy to deal with unemployment once and for all. Whatever Government will be there, we need to work on youth unemployment. Also, agriculture should now be emphasised in our secondary and primary schools. Said or not said, we must eat and drink. If you look at our school curriculum, it does not emphasise the importance of agriculture as was done after Independence. Today, we emphasise other things. Agriculture should be a compulsory subject. This happened to Kiswahili in the past and people like me never studied Kiswahili in school. Probably that is why I cannot pronounce „r‟ and „l‟. It reminds me of „elections‟ and „erections‟. It is a problem that is in me. I should have been taught Kiswahili properly. Currently, Kiswahili is an important subject in our curriculum. Why not agriculture yet human beings must feed? Why can we not have an institution that will work across the board in constituencies and counties to secure food security in our country? It is healthy to eat fish and chicken. Most of our people now know the importance of fish and the nutrients it gives to the body although we need to also eat other types of meat. There are communities that rely on dairy and other types of farming. The national Government should take this urgently. Our technical training institutes should start training fish farming and other related courses. The NGCDF should set aside some money to train fish farming to pupils and students in primary and secondary schools. By so doing, we can make them self-sustaining. There should be a kitty to fund such training, so that every primary and secondary school has a fish pond from which they can rear fish and sell to supplement their income. The NGCDF cannot continue giving money to institutions which do not generate any revenue for themselves. These institutions should generate some revenue, so that they can allow the Government to develop this country. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

With these few remarks, I support the Motion. I call upon other Members to support the Mover of this Motion.

We will now hear the Member for Kitui Central. Are you interested in contributing to this particular Motion?

Very much, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

Or is it something on finance?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, thank you very much for giving me a chance. I know you believe I can only contribute to finance matters, but I have told you many times that at times you get to a level where you can contribute to anything because you can research and get the right things to say. I want to support this Motion by Hon. Rose Nyamunga. The other day, I was looking at the newspapers and a potential competitor of Hon. Rose Nyamunga was saying that the Member does not champion the interests of the people she represents in this House. I want the person who wrote that article to look at this Motion and see clearly that Hon. Rose Nyamunga is a serious champion of the interests of the people she represents, namely, the people of Kisumu County. The livelihoods of the people of Kisumu very much depend on fishing. I support this Motion. If you look at the fishing industry in this country and how much it contributes to our Gross National Product (GNP), it is a sector which cannot be ignored. It is a sector which needs to be supported seriously. Look at the number of Kenyans who are employed in this sector. If you go to the coastal area where we have the Indian Ocean, many young Kenyans derive their livelihood from fishing. When you go to Kisumu or around Lake Turkana, it is the same story. What we require is value addition. We need to think of a system of making sure that we support the people who are involved in this important sector to improve their income. This Motion is quite important because it is urging the Government to establish fishing training institutions and fish processing plants. We all know that fish gets rotten very fast. Once we have these fish processing plants, we can come up with cooling plants so that at the end of the day, people who have fish do not sell it at a throw-away price because they have no storage facilities. Fish processing plants will make sure that we store the fish properly. As we process the fish, we add value. This will increase the price of fish and help Kenyans to get better incomes. We are all aware that about three years ago, the Government set aside, through Parliament, a lot of resources to establish fish ponds all over the country. That is why I am saying we should not be surprised when we see somebody from Kitui contributing on matters to do with fish farming. We have established quite a number of fish ponds in Kitui. For the first time, the Kamba community is eating fish. Emerging diseases in the world today require people to eat less red meat and more white meat. The fact that we are all being advised by doctors and medical experts to eat white meat, this Motion is important to all Kenyans and not only to the fish-producing areas. You need to access fish where you live, so that you can avoid red meat. The other important thing is the issue of training. We should train our young people as proposed by this Motion. This requires that we have training institutions all over the country especially in key areas like the Coast, Kisumu, Lake Turkana and other areas where fishing is practised. This will go a long way in ensuring that people have the right skills. With the right skills, they will be able to handle fish in a better way and get better returns. The other day, I was very surprised to see in the media that we import a lot of fish from China. Majority of other countries are promoting their domestic production while we seem to be The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

promoting other people‟s economies. I am really surprised that we want to import fish from China. While we have cordial relationship with China, we can produce enough fish in this country for our consumption and possibly export and not import. I want to urge the Department of Fisheries to support our farmers, so that we can become exporters of fish and not importers. I know we have capacity as a country. We have the potential to produce enough fish for this country. If we do that, then, we will be helping our people. My last point relates to fish processing plants. I am aware that in the past, we had a very huge fish processing plant around Lake Turkana. Those who come from Turkana County can confirm that, but because of mismanagement, this plant has remained a white elephant project for many years. A lot of money was pumped into this plant. So, as we think of establishing new fish processing plants, it is important for us to take the issue of management seriously. It is a different matter to establish a fish processing plant and totally different matter to ensure that the plant is being properly managed for the benefit of Kenyans. So, as we think about establishing new plants, the department in charge of fishing should ensure that once these plants are established, they are properly managed so that Kenyans can benefit from them. With those many remarks, I support this Motion. I thank Hon. Rose Nyamunga for bringing it to this House for debate. I urge my colleagues to support it.

Let us have the Member for Emurua Dikirr.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me an opportunity to make my contribution on this particular Motion. Naturally, I am not a fisherman and neither do I come from a region where fish is a staple food. However, as a farmer who embraces all sorts of farming methods and new technology, I think we need to rethink what we usually do so that we all contribute to the economy of this country and the wellbeing of our people given the fact that doctors advise us to mostly eat white meat. I do not have any problem with any kind of meat. I thank God for that. I can eat anything other than a pig.

What did you say you do not eat, Hon. Ngeno? I could see the Member for Imenti was fairly lost.

I do not eat pork, which is pig meat.

That is very interesting. Somebody is trying to play with English, but I was once an English teacher and so, you cannot claim to be ahead of me on that. I am just saying that doctors advise us to eat white meat and fish is one of it.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

What is it Hon. Lessonet?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I am just wondering whether Hon. Ngeno is ordering for a meal in this House.

While we are serious transacting business of this House, is he in order to start making orders for white meat and all those other types of meat? The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I am not so certain that, that is really a point of order. Let us hear what the Member for Emurua Dikir has to say.

I think Hon. Lessonet is just interested in jogging my mind. Fish is not sold for making clothing material. It is sold for food. When we talk about fish, we talk about food. So, regardless of whether you eat fish or you do not, fish is meant to be food. I was just saying that as a farmer, I think we need to seriously concentrate on areas like fish farming. This country relies on farming mostly. A programme was started sometimes back to introduce fish ponds in almost every constituency in this country. It was a very good programme because it would have led to higher production of fish. However, it is absurd because that project never took off. As I speak, we are being told that our country is importing fish from China. This Government is obsessed with China until they are importing fish. We are even being told they are almost importing children. We need to agree that this country is self-sufficient. We can have our own fish. We can even export fish. It is pathetic that we always take our capacity for granted that we cannot do this or we have no capacity to do this. Look at maize. We have been growing maize and maize farmers are frustrated from all corners. The bread basket of this country has gone down just because we did not give serious concentration on the farmers. We have resulted to importing maize. It is funny that we import maize while we can grow our maize. We let our maize rot in the farms. Concentration by the Government must be put on areas where Kenya has a potential. Like what my brother has said, fish is one of the fastest rotting types of meat. Therefore, we need to have good harvesting and preservation methods. Preservation is the most important because fish cannot last long. People throw their fish because they cannot be preserved. They do not have coolants to preserve the fish. In my opinion, we should support this Motion. This idea of urging the Government is not good. We had agreed in this House that there are some Motions which we do not need to urge the Government. We need to make it a reality because after all, this House is meant to do legislation. Therefore, this idea of urging the Government should stop. We are supposed to direct the Government to do what we think is best for this country. The idea of urging the Government and passing a Motion only for it to gather dust in some rooms should not be applicable. We need to make it compulsory for the Government to assist fish farmers to supply enough fish for this country. Almost half of the people who eat dinner and lunch in hotels eat fish. Therefore, it must be understood that we are not going to be eating Chinese fish while we have our fish in Lake Victoria, Lake Turkana and the Indian Ocean. The reason why governments, especially the current Government, have not concentrated seriously on fishing is because fishing is normally associated with areas like Nyanza, Western and Coast, which are believed to be Opposition areas. They do not care to assist those particular areas. These are Kenyans. Fishermen, from Coast, Western or Nyanza, regardless of the political parties, are Kenyans. They supply us with fish. When we eat fish in hotels, we do not care to know whether it is from the Opposition or from the Government side. We eat fish because it is fish. These fishermen are also taxpayers. The fish they sell to us is usually taxed. So, they must be assisted by the Government. Institutions which train people on fish farming must also be supported. We should establish institutions which are meant to train fishermen and all the people who would want to deal with fishing. We also need to introduce an authority. I wish we could have an authority like the Agricultural Development Corporation (ADC) dealing with fishing. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

We should have a fishing authority which can help farmers in training and producing the right varieties and species. We should give incentives to fish farmers to increase production. The programme that was started in this country to establish fish ponds must be supported, so that even in areas where we used to grow maize and no longer sustain maize farming, people can resort to fish farming. There is a maize disease that has almost wiped out maize in our areas. We should resort to fish farming because as I speak, farmers are frustrated.

Your time is up. We only have 14 minutes and I will give this opportunity to the Member for Kanduyi. Please, be brief.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this Motion. I would like to thank my sister, Hon. Rose, for bringing this important Motion. Just like chicken, fish is one of the foods that are recommended for good health. We are advised to avoid red meat. For us to ensure that chicken and fish supply is available, important measures must be put in place. We need to ensure that stakeholders, farmers, fishmongers and consumers are aware of what this involves. It is for this reason that I would like to say that this Motion comes at a time when we need to ensure that Kenyans are given facilities to ensure good and quality supply of chicken and fish. Fish farming is not just at the coastal and lake regions. We also have fish farmers in the countryside where fishponds have been constructed. I understand that people in Nyeri are now producing fish through fishponds yet they used to eat

We should ensure that people are trained to ensure that quality fish is produced for good health. In Bungoma, we are getting eggs from Uganda. If there will be shortage of chicken like it is now for fish, I do not know what will happen to our people. Ingokho is the best food for us. We should prepare our people and give them necessary training to ensure good quality and adequate supply. This also applies to milk production. When it comes to milk production, some factories have collapsed at the hands of funny leaders who mismanage these institutions. In my area, we had Kitinda Dairy that collapsed because of poor management that was appointed by the Government. The national Government and the County Government of Bungoma have failed to revive Kitinda Dairy as if it means nothing to them. This is important because the Government must be responsive to people‟s needs. As we debate this Motion, we should look at all the farming issues. I would like to thank Members for passing the Value Added Tax (Amendment) Bill on cane farmers and transporters. Fish, coffee and dairy farmers also pay taxes on machines that are used for production. We should remove taxes and levies on facilities that encourage and support farmers. Fish is not only good for our health, but our economy. If we improve fish production, we will get enough for our people. If researchers and scientists are involved in production of fish, we will not only have enough for ourselves, but also for our neighbours. This Motion should not just stop at urging, but should move to ensure that further steps are taken to make it a reality to support our people. As I conclude, I would like to stress the aspect of research. The current shortage of fish means that something is wrong. We could be eating fish that is available and not ensuring that those that are there are reproducing. If it is infertility, our scientists should critically look at these issues. If food or a mineral is required in water to ensure quick multiplication of fish, we should explore that option. We should not import fish from our friends. We should also do the same for chicken so that we have enough. I support the Motion. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I now give the last opportunity to the Member for Nyaribari Masaba, Hon. Moindi.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this important Motion. Fish farming is an important economic activity, but we lack knowledge. In Kisii, we have fishponds, but farmers are not benefiting much because they do not have knowledge to manage them. I would like to thank Hon. (Ms.) Nyamunga for coming up with the idea of establishing a fish farming training institution.

If this Motion goes through and the institutions are established, then this country will realise benefits from fish farming. A number of people in my area have spent a lot of money on fish farming, but they do not benefit from it due to lack of knowledge. If these institutions are established, farmers will attain knowledge which will go a long way to help them realise the benefits of fish farming. With those few remarks, I beg support.

Hon. Members, since we have three minutes before the Mover can be called to reply, I can give the Floor to one more Member. Hon. Isaac Mwaura!

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. This Motion is timely as it speaks to a major concern in this country. It is very interesting to realise that most of the communities that generate fish in this country, be it at the Coast or in the Western Kenya region, and more recently in the hinterland, there is no fish processing plant. In fact, there was a furore the other day when it was said that a fish processing plant was going to be established in Meru County. This Motion emphasises the fact that we are yet to develop proper technology for fishing. We are yet to harness the economic benefits that would accrue from such technology. The fact that we are vulnerable to importations from countries like China, where I have seen them developing fake eggs, fake lettuce and cabbages from plastics, I do not know how they are supposed to be consumed by human beings. How sure are we that the fish from China is not fake? Clearly, we need to look at it. This morning, we were discussing the fact that, as a country, we take it for granted that we have a lot of resources at our disposal which we are not able to utilise. So many billions of shillings are allocated to various sectors of the economy yet we do not see an equivalent allocation in the fishing industry. I remember sometime back in 2013 when Hon. Millie Odhiambo was trying to ensure that, at least, we have Kshs100 million for fisheries development. I think the attempt did not impress. We need to enhance this. Our young people in the Central Kenya region are benefiting a lot from fish ponds and we are going to ensure that the health of our people improves. With those remarks, I support.

It is now time for the Mover to reply.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. Before I make my final remarks, I would like to donate part of my time to a few Members who need to say something. I would like to give two minutes to Hon. Malulu, two minutes to Hon. Manoti and two minutes to Hon. Lemein.

You have already used one minute. Let us start with Hon. Injendi.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I would like to thank Hon. Nyamunga for this Motion. The only thing I would urge her to do is to move with speed and The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

prepare a Bill to actualise the Motion. I have realised that when it comes to Motions, the persons who are concerned with implementation sometimes do not take them seriously. I urge her to prepare a Bill, so that this Motion can become law and compel the persons responsible to implement the provisions of the Motion. I am wondering why we do not have a fish processing plant in this country yet we have processing plants for donkeys. I come from an area where we produce a lot of fish. About five years ago, there was the Economic Stimulus Programme in the country where most farmers got into this business and produced a lot of fish, but there was no fish processing plant hence no market for fish. With those remarks, I second.

Hon. Lemein? Hon. Lemein, you lose out.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I would like to thank Hon. Rose Nyamunga for giving me a minute. This is a very important Motion. Fish farming remains an unexploited area. I believe that once this Motion goes through, the issue of establishing training institutions and processing plants will become a reality and create a lot of opportunities for Kenyans. Of course, other than capacity building in terms of expertise in this particular area, it can also be of economic importance to the communities that practise the same. At the end of the day, jobs will be created and the economy will improve. With those remarks, I support.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I take this opportunity to thank the Mover of this very important Motion. All the Members support this Motion. Once it is passed, it will create job opportunities for our people. I would also like to urge the Government to establish some cooling plants along the fish landing beaches. That way, we will have a lot of fish for export, which will earn us foreign exchange. What is so disappointing is the fact that we have a lot of fish around yet we are importing fish from China. This is very bad. We are spending our meagre foreign reserve to import fish instead of us exporting fish. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, my time is very limited. However, we should discourage importation of fish into this country. This will assist our fish farmers. It will also assist our young people to establish fish ponds in every village and harvest more fish for our local consumption and for export. With those remarks, I support the Motion.

Hon. Nyamunga, each of the Members you donated time to contributed for a minute. You have seven minutes left. Most importantly, I want to commend the Mover because she has given her time strategically. Many Members ordinarily give their neighbours, close friends and Members of their parties. What the Member has done is, in my opinion, very strategic. If you want to have a Private Member‟s Motion passed, you should be diverse when it comes to donating time to Members. I must commend Hon. Nyamunga. You have seven minute.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I would like to donate two minutes to Hon. Lomenen, so that I can, at least, have five minutes to reply. I would like to donate another minute to Hon. Munuve.

Now, I will overrule any Member who will be making requests from the Floor. You should have moved closer to the Mover. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I strongly support this Motion and I urge my colleagues that we rally behind Hon. Rose for this wonderful Motion. I want us to start from Lake Turkana because when you see the map of Kenya, the first lake from the north is Lake Turkana and it is the only lake that has a lot of fish and many farmers. It is the only place where KANU did disservice by chasing Norwegian Agency for International Development (NORAD) who built a factory in Turkana. Up to this day, the factory is still a white elephant. This Motion will revive that factory in Lake Turkana. Thank you.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. Allow me, in support of this Motion, to say the following: One, it is a fact that if fish breeding areas came from the politically correct zones, this Motion which is coming at this time to establish a training institution and a fishing processing plant, would be something of the past. I want to be on record that if fishing was done in Central Kenya or Rift Valley for example, for the last 50 years since our Independence, for sure we would not be talking about this. I, therefore, support Hon. Rose for bringing it at this time. I want our fellow Members to support this Motion so that at least we can grow our economy. We only needed good government policy and good governance for this to be realised in the past. Thank you.

Maybe I should inform you that Central Kenya is one of the leading producers of fish. Proceed Hon. Nyamunga.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for this opportunity. I want to thank all the Members who have contributed to this Motion. It has been a very constructive session in this House. I am very grateful for your support. I would like to assure the Members that this is a very serious Motion to me. Right now, I would like to inform you that there is a team which has been dispatched from the national Government to go round all the five counties around Lake Victoria which concern themselves with fish farming. So, I am taking it very seriously and very soon you will see many things moving forward. For us to industrialise and be serious people who want to move from wherever we are to the next level of economy, we must industrialise. We must start with the resources that we have. I do not think it is fun for us to realise that we get fish from outside this nation while it should be the reverse. We should be the ones producing enough fish for us to consume and export to other economies. Secondly, I would like to let you know that Kenya is an agricultural state. We cannot neglect our own resources at the expense of other people. We want to support other economies instead of ourselves. So, I am going to take it upon myself to make sure it comes to a very good conclusion. Lastly, I would like to push the Government very hard to make sure that we take care of all our resources not only from the fishing communities but all over this nation. We should make sure that all the resources that we have in each region of this nation is properly nurtured. During the economic stimulus, there were so many ponds which were constructed. In Kisumu County alone, we have 1,274 ponds. Most of the breeds that were given to the farmers were the wrong type and the feed that was supplied to them was the wrong type. For us to succeed, we must do the right thing and do monitoring and evaluation. It was just dropping these things in the middle of nowhere. Nothing was done. The right procedure was The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

not followed. This time around, I am going to make sure that I follow this thing from the national Government to the county government, to the farmers themselves so that we maximise on the benefit of this great resource that is coming from the lake region, the coastal region and any other part of Kenya that produces fish. Thank you.

I see that we might not be able to put the Question because we are slightly short of the requisite quorum. Therefore, we will proceed to the next Order.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move the following Motion:- THAT, aware that village elders play a critical role in facilitating the work undertaken by chiefs and assistant chiefs namely in solving disputes, addressing petty crimes, handling security issues and generally promoting development initiatives; concerned that the Government is yet to adequately recognize their vital roles by way of facilitating their work; further noting that these hardworking citizens are crucial in the dissemination of government policies and plans to the grassroots, this House urges the National Government to consider giving a monthly or annual honorarium to village elders as a means of appreciating their services and encouraging them to uphold their dedication to the community Just to avoid confusion with the name “village elders”, in my community they are called

, among the Kamba community, they are called atumia ma ndua, among the Pokot, they are called poikokwa and among the Luo, they are called Jaduong’ Ngweng’ . I am concerned because when you look at the County Government Act, 2012, it recognises village elders and it provides for their remuneration. There has been some confusion where sometimes it is taken that these are the village elders who will be paid. I would also like to clarify at the outset that the system of the county government is so different from the system of the national Government when it comes to the functions and the roles they perform. When we take the case of the county government, at the sub-county level, we have sub- county administrator. The equivalent to this is the Deputy County Commissioner. At the ward level, there is the ward administrator. For that national Government, it is Assistant County Commissioner, the so-called Di Officer (DO) and the Sub-County Commissioner. At the village level, the so-called chief for the national Government, we have the Village Administrator. At the level of the assistant chief, we have the village council. For the national Government, where we have the village elders, the county government has provided for the existence of that particular office in the name of village council then village elders. At the national Government which has village elders existing from Independence performing their functions, there is no provision for these persons. We realise that the kind of village elders I am talking about, their functions--- I recall when I was moving this the first day, the Leader of the Majority Party who is not here was saying that these persons are already taken care of in the County Government Act. The kind of village elders that exist in the county governments do not play the roles the village elders actually play in the country. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, when you look at the work of the chiefs, it is not the same as that of ward administrators. Assistant chief‟s functions rely very much on these village elders. As I move this Motion, it appears like when we get into law making, we may change the name of the village elder as it is referred to in the county government. These are the persons who the assistant chiefs and chiefs rely on to perform their functions effectively. For example, when the national Government is collecting information, it passes through the County Commissioners down to the chiefs yet the chiefs do not go to the grassroots to collect this information. Instead they use the village elders to perform these particular functions. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, if we do not provide remuneration for these particular persons, it is apparent that the national Government will lose its footing on the ground. Instead we are likely to see the county government being felt on the ground. For example, when you look at the National Government Coordination Act, 2013, it actually provides for the existence of County Commissioner in respect of every county, the Deputy County Commissioner in respect of every sub-county, Assistant County Commissioner in respect of every ward, a chief in respect of every location and an assistant chief in respect of every sub-location. What about the village that is represented by a village elder or “Luguru”? It is not really reflected here and that is why I came up with this so that Members look at it and see the shortcomings. When you look at the County Government Act, 2012, it is really providing for these particular persons right from the county to the village level and, therefore, realising that the national Government has a missing link. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, when you look at the village elders who play a critical role in our society, you cannot imagine the kind of life they lead with the kind of role they perform. I am sorry to mention this in public that some of them as much as they do so much for the Government in terms of collecting information, like on parents who are not taking their children to school and on defilement matters, when you look at some of them at a personal level, the kind of houses they have and how they even dress, it is really appalling. As we realise, most of them have been killed and maimed in their line of duty. You recall the cases that happened in Central Kenya, they are the persons who identify persons who make illicit brews and once the Government takes action against these particular persons, the victims actually come for them to revenge. You find that in the course of their duty they are killed. When it comes to settling family disputes, fighting land issues, marital problems, these are the actual persons who actually perform these particular functions. These are the people who even ensure there is stability in our villages and families. I have been attending some of their meetings. In some families when one of the spouses is denied conjugal rights, they listen to such cases. When I was young, my father was a senior assistant chief and sometimes I could attend his meetings. You would find when these people come before makurus, one alleges that: “My husband goes to the market and comes back in the evening, but he does not take the food that I have prepared. How do you expect me to stay in his home? I prepare food everyday and when he comes back in the evening he does not eat it”. Hon. Temporary Speaker, personally I thought he was talking of the normal food. You know we thought it was the normal Ugali when actually it was not. I hope you understand what we are talking about because we have children in the Gallery.

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Which is this food that is not Ugali ? Anyway, Proceed Hon. Malulu.

You also realize that in order to exercise leadership effectively you must have power, and for you to have this power, you must have money. If you do not have money, then you will not have power and you cannot exercise leadership effectively. It is on the basis of this that we actually want to empower our village elders to really work effectively and for people to have respect for them, particularly now that the county governments have put in place their systems. For example, in my county, they have actually recruited up to that level. The next thing they are working on is to start recruiting village elders and then start paying them. For the national Government to be felt and for these particular persons to really work diligently for the Government, I am proposing that this Government considers some form of remuneration to ensure that we appreciate their work. These particular persons have been working since Independence and have actually continued to serve. Where I come from, these village elders are actually elected by the community to lead. Again, when you look at the kind of service they are providing, it is like we are not considering them for any payment. It is like we are undermining their efforts in provision of services. It is through this that I urge the Government to actually consider some payments. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I also brought a Motion before on the Kenyatta Mausoleum. Before that Motion was on the Floor, there was an Hon. Member who developed a Bill. For Members also to know, I am actually working on a Bill so as to ensure it becomes law and no Member of this Hon. House can actually take it away from my feet by developing a Bill. Otherwise as I move this, I call upon Hon. Mwadime to second.

Hon. Mwadime.

Shukrani Mheshimiwa Naibu Spika wa Muda kwa kunipa hii nafasi na heshima niliopatiwa na Mheshimiwa Malulu Injendi. Naunga mkono hii Hoja ambayo ni muhimu sana. Mimi mwenyewe nilikuwa nimeandika Hoja kama hii lakini ikawa mwenza amenitangulia. Sina budi bali kumuunga mkono kwa kila namna. Mheshimiwa Naibu wa Spika wa Muda, mwanzo kabla hata sijaongea sana, hao wazee wa kijiji sio lazima wawe na elimu kiwango fulani bali lazima wawe ni watu tu ambao wamechaguliwa na wananchi kule vijijini. Hao wazee wa vijiji wakiwa wazee kwa wamama hufanya kazi kubwa haswa kwa masuala ya usalama ambalo ni jukumu muhimu sana kwa nchi yetu kwa ujumla. Maanake inachangia kwa masuala ya uchumi kama vile utalii, uchumi na kile kitengo kwa ujumla maanake hata ukila Ugali na hakuna usalama, huo Ugali hausimami tumboni. Mhe. Naibu Spika wa Muda, hawa wazee wa vijiji huchangia sana. Wao hufanya kazi kubwa. Saa zingine wanaamka masaa ya usiku sana na hawana tochi, viatu, nguo na hawalipwi, na ilhali wanachangia pakubwa sana katika shughuli tofauti za nchi yetu kuleta maendeleo kule mashinani. Miaka ya nyuma, wazee wa vijiji walikuwa ni watu ambao wamekomaa, wamefundisha watoto wao wakamaliza, na wengine wamepumzika kule mashinani, lakini hali imebadilika. Siku hizi wazee wa vijiji ni vijana ambao wameoa juzi, na akina mama pia wako na watoto wanasoma. Nampongeza sana Mhe. Injendi kwa kuleta Hoja hii.

Wazee wa vijiji ndio wanafahamu kila kitu ambacho kinaendelea kule vijijini. Tukiwatunza, tutatunza nchi yetu kwa kila namna kwa sababu wao huhusishwa kwa masuala ya mashamba, malumbano madogo na wakati mama na baba wamekosana kule nyumbani. Wazee The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

wa vijiji hutumiwa na Serikali wakati inataka kufikia malengo yao kule mashinani. Wakati viongozi wote hapa Bungeni wanatafuta kura, huwatumia wazee kupiga firimbi hapa na pale, ili waonane na wananchi. Watu wamekuwa wakiongea kuhusu suala la wazee kwa muda mrefu lakini halijatekelezwa. Baada ya huu mjadala kuisha, naomba ile Kamati ya Utekelezi iende mbio, na Hoja hii iwe sheria kwa haraka iwezekanavyo.

Wazee wa vijiji wanasikia vile nasema. Naomba waangalie hawa viongozi wote ambao wako hapa Bungeni. Wachukue hatua kwa wale viongozi ambao hawaungi mkono Hoja hii kwa sababu ni muhimu sana.

Sitaki kuongea mengi kwa sababu Hoja hii inajielezea. Naunga mkono Hoja hii kwa dhati. Asante, Mhe. Naibu Spika wa Muda.

That threat that you made was uncalled for. Let the Members participate freely, and support the Motion without undue pressure.

Hon. Members, we will move in this manner. First, I will start with Hon. Gunga Mwinga, Member for Kaloleni.

Asante sana, Mhe. Naibu Spika wa Muda, kwa kunipa fursa hii ya kwanza kuunga mkono Hoja hii. Kwanza, ningependa kutoa shukrani zangu za dhati kwa Mhe. Injendi kwa kufikiria na kuleta dhana hii ambayo bila shaka itaenda mbali katika kuona maisha ya wale wazee wetu wa vijiji yameimarika kule nyanjani.

Ukiangalia katika Katiba yetu, suala la usalama limeachwa katika Serikali ya Kitaifa. Serikali za kaunti zinahusika kwa kiwango fulani katika suala hili, lakini Serikali ya kitaifa ndiyo imewekewa jukumu hili la usalama. Baadhi ya wale washikandao katika suala hili la usalama ni wazee wetu wa vijiji. Waheshimiwa wenzangu wataniunga mkono kwamba kila mara tunapoenda kwa mikutano kule nyanjani, masuala mengi huzungumzwa lakini suala ambalo utaulizwa kama kiongozi wa kitaifa ni ajira kwa wazee wa vijiji. Mhe. Injenda ameeleza dhahiri shahiri kwamba katika ngazi ya Serikali ya kitaifa, kuna makamishna ambao wanategemea zaidi habari na ushauri kutoka kwa wazee wetu wa vijiji. Kinachoshangaza ni kwamba ukiangalia tofauti ya mishahara ya wazee wa vijiji na ya makamishna wetu, jameni utaona haya ni mateso. Kila mara, ni lazima utapata kamishna akimwambia mzee wa kijiji atoe taarifa fulani, ilhali mzee huyu hata amelala njaa. Kwa ubinadamu, kuna umuhimu wazee hawa waangaliwe. Hawa ni binadamu kama binadamu wengine, na wako na mahitaji ya chakula, malazi na mavazi. Vile vile, hawa ni wazee ambao bila shaka wako na watoto na majukumu ya kuona kwamba watoto wao pia wamepata elimu, na wamelelewa kama watoto wengine. Kwa sababu ya haya, kuna haja sisi Wabunge wa Bunge la Kitaifa, tuunge mkono Hoja hii, na kuhimiza Serikali itekeleze Hoja hili. Wakati umefika tuweze kuwatazama kwa karibu wazee wetu. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Usalama unaweza kuenda chini kila siku kwa sababu ya kutowapa motisha wazee wa vijiji.Tukumbuke kwamba, wazee hawa wako pale chini kijijini, na bila shaka taarifa na habari zote, ziwe nzuri ama mbaya, hawa wazee wetu huwa nazo. Kwa hivyo, wale maafisa wote ambao tunawaita intelligence officers, bila shaka huwategemea sana wazee wetu. Kinachotushangaza ni kwamba hawa maofisa hupata hela nyingi lakini wazee wetu hawapati kitu. Hawa wazee wako na majukumu mengi sana. Siku nyingine, tunawaonea huruma. Utapata wakati jambo fulani limefanyika, wao huhusishwa. Kwa mfano, mtu ameuwawa na mzee wa kijiji atabidi akae pale kutoka saa nne usiku hadi saa mbili asubuhi, wakati gari la polisi litakapokuja kubeba maiti ile. Huyu ni mzee ambaye ameacha nyumba yake, majukumu yake na shughuli zake kushughulikia jambo hili. Badala ya kupoteza hela nyingi kuandaa mikutano katika hoteli za kifahari na kupeleka watu nchi za nje, ni lazima fikra zetu zote zielekezwe katika kuangalia masuala ya wazee hao. Tunaweza pata tatizo kwa serikali za kaunti kwa sababu zimeanza kuleta watu ambao wanaambatana na sheria za kaunti katika mipangilio.

Mhe. Naibu Spika wa Muda, itafika mahali wale wafanyikazi wa serikali za kaunti watakuwa wanapata hela na wale wengine wanafanyia Serikali ya kitaifa itakuwa hawapati hela. Kutakuwa na migongano katika kazi na bila shaka Serikali ya kitaifa itaandikisha hasara.

Jambo lingine ambalo ningependa kuzungumzia ni kwamba hawa wazee wetu mara nyingi huwa ndio mashahidi kule nyanjani hasa kwa kesi nyingi ambazo hutokea. Ikiwa ni kesi za watoto wetu, labda kupata mimba ama kesi za watoto kunajisiwa na masuala kama haya, wazee wetu wa vijiji ndio wako na habari hizi. Lakini ikiwa wazee hawa hawatatazamwa, ufisadi utakitili. Hakuna haja ya mzee atoke pale anaishi karibu kilomita kumi na tano kutoka mahakamani atoe ushahidi ilihali hakuna lolote atatoka nalo. Ndio maana watu watakaa chini na kuzungumza na labda mzee huyu atashikishwa kitu kidogo. Baada ya kushikishwa kitu kidogo, ushahidi hautatokea na kesi zitaanguka na hazitaenda mahali popote.

Kwa hivyo ikiwa kweli tunahitaji mambo ya taifa letu yaende kwa hali nzuri, ningeomba Serikali iwe na jukumu la kuhakikisha ya kwamba wazee wetu wameanagaliwa vyema.

Kwa haya maneno mengi, naiunga mkono Hoja hii na nauliza waheshimiwa wenzangu sote tuunge mkono kwa kauli moja. Shukrani sana.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): I now give the Floor to the Member for Sigor, Hon. Rotino.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to add my voice to this very important Motion. From the outset, in supporting this Motion, I wish to congratulate my colleague so much for thinking so much and bringing it at the right time. We all realise what the elders do. As politicians, we actually use elders to gather information for ourselves in all that we do. They are a supporting pillar for any kind of development we do in every village. There is an elder in every village and community. They do a lot of work ranging from gathering information for the Government, running the community to assisting in resolving any kind of squabbles in the community. They do a lot of work. They arbitrate in these meetings. They do a lot of work yet we do not recognise them.

After any meeting we hold as politicians, we give them some tokens for what they do because we appreciate what they do. But, we need to put this in a Government system so that they are recognised that they are people who do a lot of work. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Chiefs and assistant chiefs cannot do without these elders and we all know this. When anything happens in the village, the first person they call is the village elder to give them information. When we do census, we depend squarely on the elders yet we do not give them anything. When you go to their homes, they live in very pathetic conditions. Their children do not go to school and we help them with tokens for school fees but, we are not giving them something they can depend on that they know as something.

It is important for any society to recognise its elders or village people who manage the society. Even what is happening in our schools nowadays; the torching of schools, it is because we do not involve our elders in the school boards. We find that school board members are young people with no experience yet the elders who are supposed to advise and give counsel to these children are not recognised. They are not given due privilege to manage and help the chiefs, assistant chiefs and the head teachers to run some of these institutions.

I insist that we should put them into the system of the national Government because the county governments are in the process of employing and giving a regular salary to some of the village elders. But those who spearhead the national Government; those who assist our chiefs need to be put in the payroll so that at the end of the month they know they are earning a salary and work with commitment and give us the right information. This Motion must be taken seriously and we must follow it to the letter to ensure that our elders are given what they are supposed to be given. We see cash transfers to the elderly but who assists the assistant chiefs to identify them so that they are given the money? It is the village elders or village administrators as they call them in the counties.

This is a timely Motion and we all need to support it. As my colleagues have alluded, all of us as politicians need to use these village elders to support us in all our campaigns. We need to spearhead to ensure that the national Government puts them on a regular salary if not on an honorarium at the end of the year. Personally, I feel, we should give them money. It is not much money we need to give. To keep them comfortable for them to gather intelligent information that we need--- They are the ones who give us intelligent information in the villages. When there are problems in the village, they provide it. We should regularise their services to ensure that they are in the payroll of the Government.

With those few remarks, I support the Motion and feel that it is straightforward and all of us should support it.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Thank you, Hon. Member. I now give the Floor to the Member for Kathiani, Hon. Mbui.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for this opportunity. I begin by thanking Hon. Malulu Injendi for coming up with an extremely important Motion that is basically geared towards ensuring that the services that are being provided by these elderly managers are recognised by the State and that they are paid for them.

In Kathiani Constituency, we do not call them elders because in the Kamba community there are other elders. So, we actually refer to them as village managers. This is straightforward because these are the people who manage the affairs of the State in every village in our country.

I want to begin by looking at the critical role that these people play. I am happy that the Mover of this Motion has mentioned quite a number of them. They carry out responsibilities in the job descriptions of our chiefs and assistant chiefs yet they do not have job description and are not employees of the Government. These are the people who handle all disputes within the community such as land cases and family disputes which are a constant headache every other The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

day. So, these managers are continuously doing that on a day to day basis. They are also involved in addressing petty crime, family fights and minor theft cases that can be sorted out and handled in a way that the person can be corrected and they stop. It is not everything that needs to go to court and be handled in that manner.

They also handle security matters. We know very well that the village managers know everybody within their village. When people come to the villages, they are able to identify them and can put their people on alert to ensure that these people do not commit crimes within their regions. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, they also handle or promote development initiatives. When we are issuing bursaries in Kathiani Constituency, for example, these are the people that will help to actually identify the real needy members of the community. They are the ones who tell us the most deserving people because they know them. They also work together with their people in identifying the needy cases. When we distribute food aid during the drought season, they are also the ones who identify the families that are most affected. When there is a problem within the society, they are the first ones on site. If there is fire in a school and as a colleague has mentioned, you will find the village manager being the first person to get to that school to know what is going on. They are involved in health matters. They identify and advise sick people who do not go to hospital. They advise the Government accordingly so that these people are probably forced to seek medical attention, and so many other things. The Government is yet to recognise and appreciate the role these people are playing in this country. Unfortunately, I have observed that these people cannot benefit from a lot of the things we do. For example, we cannot give them bursary. For some reason, the rest public think they should be well off and that is why they are in those positions. When you attempt to give them bursary, the general public goes up in arms to say “this money is not for the leaders.” They are considered leaders. When we have those cash transfer programmes for the elderly, you cannot include these people in it. They are considered to be leaders. It is quite a very challenging position for them. I feel we need to really do something about it. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, we are talking about payment. I want to just refer to Article 41(1) of the Constitution which talks about fair labour practices. It is only fair that anybody who works and provides a service is paid for it. Article 41(2) of the Constitution talks about every worker having a right to fair remuneration and reasonable working conditions. Village Elders are people who are providing us service. They are working day in, day out, but they are paid absolutely nothing. It is important to note that this is modern day slavery to have people working without pay. I have been to meetings with them. The assistant chiefs and chiefs push them around, yet they are not paid for this service. As a House, it is important we ensure we put a stop to this and urge the Government to find whatever means necessary to make sure these people get paid every month so that they know they are serving a country and community that appreciates them. Being the budget- making Parliament, this House has the authority to find a way of making this possible. I would urge my colleagues to support this Motion. I am happy it has come to the Floor. Since I was elected, it is one of the things that are queried by village managers in every meeting. They always ask when they will be paid. Recently, we started introducing social assistance The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

programmes. They thought it is their money because it was said ni pesa ya wazee . We told them it is for the elderly, but not those who work for the Government. It is important we address this. I would also like to point out that as we address this issue, there are those who have been recruited into Nyumba Kumi Initiative . It is a very good initiative that will help us have better security in our regions. These people are also not being paid. When we finish with the village elders, we have to find a way of addressing the Nyumba Kumi Initiative . They are also expected to work. We need to find a way by which we can encourage and pay our people fairly. If we do not make payment to these people, corruption gets in. This is what will happen, if the villager manager is not being paid and there is land dispute, chances are that the person who is willing to give him some little money to assist their case will be the one who will win the case irrespective of what is fair and just. That is because if they do not get paid, somebody has to pay for their time and effort. If we continue in the way we are, we will be encouraging corruption within our villages. That is something we need to completely deal with. Finally, I am made to believe that similar Motions have been tabled and discussed in the previous Parliaments. This is something I have queried several times. I do not know the purpose of this House, if we will discuss Motions and agree and every Member here says “yes”, but nothing gets done. Maybe we need to agree that this is a new Parliament which is a budget- making one. Maybe we need to push some of our agenda when we are making the Budget for this country. We should not just “urge” but also insist and ensure that whatever we say becomes a matter of law. We are legislators. We cannot legislate in vain but for a purpose. On this one, let us ensure those village managers, at least, feel the impact of this 11th Parliament of this Republic by the time we are finishing our term. With those few remarks, I support. I urge my colleagues to do the same. Thank you.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Okay, thank you Hon. Member. I now give the Floor of the House to the Member for Wajir East, Hon. Abass Mohamed.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I join my colleagues to support the Motion. It is beyond anybody‟s reasoning that village elders and wazees play a critical role in the society‟s setup. These are the people who have a lot of knowledge, historical knowledge and memories. They keep a lot of memories for the society and the growing youth. The same elders play a big role in counselling the youth and the middle-aged persons in society. They also play a great role in dispute resolution. If it were not for the elders within the society, may things would have gone wrong. As the saying goes, “things do not go wrong where elders are”. Now that we have new Acts which are under the counties in the new Constitution, the village elders are recognised. They are part of the establishment of the county administrative units. It is high time these village elders and the society elders are recognised for their role. They should be given some tokens to say “thank you” for the services they are doing to the society. Most of the time we have national exercises like census and vaccinations, these elders move from place to place to identify who is who. They move to various villages yet they have no support. They are not given any transport or paid any tokens for the work they are doing. That is not being fair to the wazees and the village elders. As leaders of this country, it is high time we appreciate and recognise the role these society elders play. They must be recognised and paid some honoraria to appreciate the service they are giving to the society. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Even on political platforms, it is the same elders that each of us use when we want to go for anything to do with politics. It is the same elders we use to solve disputes among us. When a politician has a problem, those are the people he runs to. We must appreciate their services. We must help these elders to be part of the system. The system of conflict resolution must be recognised. Even in the courts, when you go to various villages and counties, there are local courts. These same elders are the people that solve disputes. They are the ones who make various fines. In most of the time, they save our people from going to court or the police. These elders are the ones who solve the disputes. These are the very important members of the society. They are very important people for the communities. It is high time we recognise them and pay them some little money to appreciate their service. With those few remarks, I support.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Thank you, Hon. Member. I now give the Floor to the Member for Rabai, Hon. Mwamkale.

Asante sana, Mhe. Naibu Spika wa Muda. Kwanza nampongeza Mhe. Malulu kwa kuleta Hoja hii ambayo wakati wake umefika. Hawa tunaowaita village elders sisi kule Pwani tunawaita wazee wa mtaa kwa sababu hawasimamii kijiji kama ilivyotafsiriwa; wanasimamia mtaa mzima. Ukweli wa mambo ni kwamba hawa ndio wawakilishi hasa wa Serikali kule mashinani. Hata tukitaja chief, sub-chief au Deputy County Commissioner (DCC), wote wanawategemea wazee wa mitaa kumfikia mwananchi wa mashinani ili atekeleze maagizo ya Serikali. Ukweli wa mambo ni kwamba hawa wazee wa mitaa wanafanya kazi masaa 24. Hakuna wakati ambao hawako kazini. Likitokea la mchana, lazima mzee wa mtaa atafutwe. Likitokea la usiku, lazima mzee wa mtaa atafutwe. Wakati wowote ule wanasikia amri ya chifu au DCC ili watekeleze. Hawa ni watu ambao wameacha majukumu yao. Mara nyingi mzee wa mtaa hana hata wakati wa kuenda shambani kwake, hana wakati wa kusimamia biashara yake. Amejitolea maisha yake na masaa yake yote kutumikia Serikali na wananchi. Ni jambo la kusikitisha ya kwamba mtu ataacha majukumu yake ya kibinafsi atekeleze majukumu ya umma ilhali mtu huyu hafikiriwi kupatiwa chochote. Hii ndio inachangia matatizo ya ukosefu wa usalama. Ijapokuwa tumeenda mpaka Tanzania tukaiga mambo ya wazee wa Nyumba Kumi, shida haikuwa kwamba wazee wa mitaa hawawezi kutuhakikishia usalama. Shida ni kwamba hata wanapofanya ile shughuli, wengi wanavunjika moyo ya kwamba hawapati chochote. Watoto wao wanakaa nyumbani kwa sababu hawana karo ya shule. Jamii zao zinalala njaa kwa sababu hawana chochote na wakati wao wote wanautoa kwa Serikali. Naomba hata kama tutaigiza na tuwe na wazee wa Nyumba Kumi, tusisahau kwamba kule Tanzania wazee wa Nyumba Kumi wanapatiwa kitu. Ni kwa nini tuchukue jina na tusiigize kwamba wazee hawa ni lazima waangaliwe? Nina imani ya kwamba wazee wa mitaa na wa Nyumba Kumi kama wataangaliwa na wapatiwe kitu, hii wataifanya kama kazi. Watafanya kazi hata zaidi ya wale makachero wetu na polisi wetu. Tunaposema polisi anafanya kazi masaa 24 kwa siku saba, polisi ana siku zake za kupumzika, lakini mzee wa mtaa hana siku ya kupumzika. Yeye kila wakati yuko kazini ilhali halipwi chochote. Nina imani kwamba Serikali itakapotambua na tuamue kwamba tunalipa hawa wazee wetu, shida ya ukosefu wa usalama itaisha. Mzee wa mtaa yuko pale kijijini na anaweza kukuambia ni nani mgeni aliyeingia pale hata kama ameingia usiku kwa sababu anawasiliana na wakaaji wa ule mtaa. Ni rahisi kabisa kutambua mgeni aliyeingia au mtu ambaye tabia zake si sawa. Hata hawa wezi ambao huchukua The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

vitu, bila shaka wanaingiza pale katika kijiji. Usalama unatupiga chenga kwa sababu hatuwatambui, hatuwathamini wale ambao hufanya ile kazi kweli. Tunathamini wale ambao wako juu, ambao bila kuelezewa na hawa wazee wa mitaa, bila kupatiwa taarifa na hawa wazee wa Nyumba Kumi hawawezi kujua lolote. Ndio maana usalama unadorora hapa kwetu. Wakati umefika. Kama ilivyosemekana ya kwamba wazee wetu wengine wanatazama runinga saa hizi wanatusikiza tukijadili mambo yao, naomba Kamati ya Utekelezaji wachukue hili jambo kama jambo ambalo linaguza nchi nzima, linaguza wazee ambao wanasaidia kila mmoja wetu hapa. Hoja hii ya Mhe. Malulu kama itapita, basi Kamati ya Utekelezaji ichukue hili jambo na kuhakikisha ya kwamba yale tutakayopitisha hatupitishi tu kujifurahisha kama Bunge bali tunapitisha kitu ambacho kitatekelezwa. Wacha Kamati ya Utekelezaji isurutishe Serikali kutekeleza yale ambayo tutapitisha hasa haya malipo kwa wazee wetu wa mitaa, wazee wa vijiji na wazee wa Nyumba Kumi ambao tumewaleta kusaidiana na wazee wa mitaa. Naunga mkono na nina imani kwamba Wabunge wenzangu wataunga mkono wazee wetu walipwe ili watufanyie kazi hata kwa wakati huu ambao tutawahitaji zaidi. Asante, Naibu Spika wa Muda.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): I now give the Floor to the Member for Emurua Dikirr, Hon. Ngeno Kipyegon.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to speak to this Motion. As I said previously, these Motions that urge the Government should be made to be either an amendment to a Bill or to be brought as substantive legislation. When you see the importance of some of these Motions and the fact that some of them might not end up being Bills, we feel like we are neglecting our duties as legislators. I would wish to support it, especially based on the roles these old men and women normally play in our societies. These people play a greater role in societies. These are the people who are closer to the ordinary mwananchi down there. These are the people who know where the real problems are. If you want to sort out the problem of insecurity, these are the people who know how to do it. They are the people who know which people are criminals or which people have the tendencies of stealing and committing petty crimes in the villages. So, these are the people who can curb insecurity in our villages. As I speak, some sub-counties are experiencing conflicts. For example, there is conflict in the border of my constituency and Kilgoris Constituency because of land disputes. There have been clashes for the last three weeks. These elders are the people who understand exactly what problems the communities that live in those areas face. We have also been having peace committees – people who have just been going round helping the societies to live together, but they do not earn anything. They are just at the mercy of the DCCs. We need to remunerate them just like other people working for the Government. These people are doing great jobs. It is only that we have not legislated to allow them to be permanently employed until when they retire they hand over to the other elders who can also help us. We have just had some casual engagement with them. Most communities have these elders. The Kalenjin have the Myoot who are meant to solve some of the problems facing the communities. We have the Njuri Ncheke among the Meru. It is time we recognised their formations and the importance of those village elders so that they can solve the matters we have. These people also come in on matters that affect the people, like in cases that are normally handled at the village level. Initially, before the formation of these other weird administrators by the counties, these people used to listen to cases that deal with families, petty crimes or stealing. They would sit down the villagers, listen to the cases and The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

even fine the people concerned in those particular cases. The villagers would pay. When somebody appeals to the courts, the courts used to recall the case, which was heard in the village. It was used as evidence in a case being handled in court. Life has been smooth with these people. The problem is they would rely on the petitioners or complainants to pay them some fee to manage those particular cases. These people deal with issues which even the assistant chiefs, courts and the Deputy County Commissioners (DCCs) cannot deal with. These people deal with cases we cannot deal with ourselves and yet we do not pay them. We only pay ourselves and the DCCs yet these elders solve a lot of problems. It is high time we made it a reality. We should pay them some salaries like other employees in this country. Article 60 of the Constitution, which is about principles of land policy, talks of encouragement of communities to settle land disputes through recognized local community initiatives consistent with this Constitution. The local community initiates are usually initiated by village elders at the grassroots level because they are the people who know where the boundaries are. Even the Constitution recognises that most of the solutions to the land issues and land disputes can be initiated at that local level. Why can we not recognise that these elders have a very important role that abides with the Constitution and pay them? Most of the disputes we have in this country, especially to do with boundaries and land, are initiated by the Ministry of Lands itself. I was wondering what the function of this Ministry of Land is. We could even have the National Land Commission (NLC) alone and deal with these elders rather than have a whole Ministry of Lands full of “thieves” and people who steal files and maps, and people who issue more than one title deed for one piece of land. These people do not know village problems. They go and create more disputes. It is only through village elders that we can know where exactly the boundary passes and who owns which particular pieces of land. The question of imposing people on other peoples‟ land can be sorted out by these elders.

We can also use these elders on development matters because they can be identified. There is a proposal in the functions of the national Government where we need to identify development projects to be done by the national Government. This is normally done through the DCCs, which cannot know where the problems are unless they use assistant chiefs and, of course, village elders. These people know where it pinches. They know where the problems are among the locals. We can also use them on development issues.

Coordination of security matters can be properly done by the village elders. Like we have always been saying, on matters where we need to understand most of the security problems, we call chiefs and assistant chiefs to come and explain to them how things work. It cannot be the function of the county governments to create village elders themselves because they do not deal with security matters. The national Government should create the docket of village elders first before anybody else because these are the people who understand security and land matters more than anybody else. So, they are very useful on matters of coordination. Chiefs may not know crimes like Female Genital Mutilation (FGM). In areas where people are still practising FGM, people have become so smart that they do not circumcise girls but they marry them and then they go and circumcise them in their homes. Somebody will tell you: “This is now my property so why do you want to follow?” However, that is still FGM. These are the people who can know and understand. So, we need these elders to help us in so many things, including crimes like FGM and petty crimes like stealing. There are so many children who drop out of school. These people can identify that the child of so and so has been denied education and they can take the report to the chiefs. Let us use The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

these elders to assist us. They can also know the children who misbehave in schools. They can also assist us to know why there is this burning of schools nowadays.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Thank you, Hon. Member. Your time is up. I now give the Floor to the Member for Tana River County, Hon. Halima.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for identifying me to speak this morning. Actually, I am talking from the experience I have as far as this issue is concerned. Security in Kenya starts with village elders. Village elders are quite important as far as collection of security and intelligence is concerned. They guide even the chiefs on the issues they are supposed to solve. They handle boundary disputes on farms and family disputes before they reach the chiefs or the Assistant County Commissioner. By the time the matters reach higher levels, like the ACC‟s office, the ACC will already have got the information from that particular village. The only problem we have is that we are good at starting something but very poor at finishing. We started community policing, which really helped Kenya in sharing of security information. Community policing just died because of poor facilitation. The same is happening to the village elders. As far as facilitation is concerned, they are demoralised. Nobody speaks about the facilitation of these village elders. We only recruit them so that they work for us. They are very important especially in areas which have foreign visitors who are criminals. They are very good at collecting intelligence and taking it to the right place. See our country today, we do not know who sleeps in a certain home or which people live in the next village. Bad people enter villages and live there because of not facilitating these village elders. So, this group is very important. They guide chiefs and assistant chiefs and provide them with information before it reaches the regional officers. If they are trained, they will be very good at keeping information. We should rely on them as Kenyans. This group is also the link between the communities within their areas and the Government. They are very familiar with their areas more than the new officers who were posted from elsewhere to those particular villages. They are more familiar with the area than the new officers who are posted from elsewhere. They can give the right information if properly used. The Government should have a policy for village elders and community policing for better security in this country. If we do not do so, then we will have foreigners coming in and out of the country simply because we do not have proper people at the grassroots to give us the information. Security starts with our village elders. We should facilitate and make them happy so that they can work for us. If they are not facilitated, then we will continue having problems. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for recognising and picking me to speak on this issue.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): I now give the Floor to the Member for South Imenti, Hon. Murungi.

Ahsante sana, Mhe. Naibu Spika wa Muda. Naomba kuchangia Hoja hii na kuzungumza kwa lugha ambayo wazee wetu pale kijijini wataielewa kwa sababu wengi wao wanasikiliza redio na wengine wanatutazama kwenye runinga zao. Ningependa kusema kwamba viongozi wa vijijini ni watu muhimu sana katika uongozi wa nchi hii. Nawachukulia kama manaibu wa machifu kwa sababu chochote kinachotendeka kijijini huwafikia wao kwanza na wao ndio hupeleka habari kwa naibu wa chifu na chifu. Nao hupeleka ujumbe huo kwa naibu kamishna wa kaunti. Wazee hao wameumia kwa miaka mingi The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

kwa sababu tangu tulipopata Uhuru, hawajawahi kutambuliwa. Katiba asilia haikuwatambua kama viongozi. Mara nyingi, tumejadiliana nao kuhusu suala hili. Wakati Mhe. Malulu Injendi alileta Hoja hii, niliona kuwa ni busara tuichangie na kuiunga mkono ili kabla hatujavunja Bunge hili, tuwape hela ili nao wapate kiinua mgongo. Viongozi wa vijijini ndio wanachama wa mpango wa Nyumba Kumi na wametwikwa majukumu mazito sana. Hata hawapati hela zinazotoka kwa Wizara ya Ulinzi kwani zinafika tu kwa manaibu wa machifu. Labda apewe tu chai iwapo kuna kesi anashughulikia. Hawawezi kujimudu maishani na wana mahitaji mengi. Hawana nafasi ya kufanya shughuli zao kwa sababu wanatumia muda mwingi kwa kazi za wananchi. Tunafaa kupitisha haraka Hoja hii ili Kamati ya kuhakikisha kuwa sheria tunazopitisha zinatekelezwa ishughulikie Hoja hii ikiwa ya kwanza. Wana majukumu mengi sana. Wakati mwingine, mama anapotoroka mzee wake, wanaitwa kusaidia kumrudisha nyumbani. Hawalipwi mshahara. Hawana mavazi wala viatu. Wanashughulikia masuala ya nchi yetu na ni aibu kuwa tunawatumia ilhali hatuwapatii chochote. Wanafaa kulipwa mshahara mwisho wa kila mwezi. Vile vile, wanafaa kupewa sare ili unapowaona kijijini, basi utawatambua kama watu wanaotusaidia katika usalama. Wamehakikisha kuwa tuna usalama nchini. Wakati mgeni anakuja mtaani, wanafanya uchunguzi wao kirasmi na wanaweza kutueleza iwapo mgeni huyo sio mtu mzuri. Tunafaa kuwaunga mkono na kuwasaidia. Katika eneo Bunge langu la Imenti Kusini, tuna mpango wa kuhakikisha kuwa hakuna mtoto haendi shuleni. Wazee wa kijiji wametusaidia kuhakikisha kuwa wale watoto ambao wanatoroka shuleni wanajulikana na wanashika wazazi wao ili washtakiwe. Wametusaidia zaidi ya machifu na manaibu wao kumaliza pombe haramu. Vile vile, wanasaidia katika utawala wa nchi yetu. Tunafaa kupitisha Hoja hii ili tuwasaidie hao viongozi wetu.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): I now give the Floor to the Member for Uriri, Hon. Kobado.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity. Whenever calamities or tragedies occur, the first people to contact are the village elders. We sometimes refer to them as senior citizens. On that note, allow me to convey a word of sympathy to the family of a prominent Kenyan. On behalf of the people of Uriri and, on my own behalf, I would like to convey our heartfelt condolences to the family of Prof. Wilson Otieno Ogolla, who was until his death, the Chairman of Technical and Vocational Education and Training (TVET) Authority. He was also the Director of University and Industry Partnership. He was a Professor of Mechanical and Megatronics Engineering at the Technical University of Kenya (TUK). He was an accomplished academician, an education manager and an icon in the training industry. He was a prominent personality in this country. He was instrumental in the establishment of TVET Authority, and subsequently, appointed as its Chairman. Through his papers, he was instrumental in the Bills that we debated and passed in this House including the TVET Act, the National Qualifications Framework Bill and lately, the Engineering Technologists and Technicians Bill, which I believe is awaiting the President‟s assent. We have lost the finest brain in this country. I ask the Almighty God to rest the soul of Prof. Ogolla in eternal peace.

Turning to the Motion, first allow me to congratulate my friend, Hon. Injendi, for bringing this very important Motion to the House. We are trying to appreciate the work that the village elders are already doing. We are simply trying to take Government services closer to the The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

citizens. Already, those people are performing what we simply need to appreciate. You may be aware that public participation is a constitutional requirement in this country. Whenever there is an intervention or an initiative or a project to be undertaken, you have to involve the public. The people to help us reach the public are the village elders. They are performing a very critical role in the development of the social fabric of this country. You realize that village elders have been very instrumental in identifying the beneficiaries of cash transfers. Those people have been very instrumental when it comes to identifying beneficiaries for bursaries and other projects that we have been undertaking as Members of Parliament. Most of those people have served the society for a long time. Sometimes, we get people from the society, in terms of human resource, who are used and returned to the society in very bad shape. It is important that the people we get from the society as human resource are returned to the society in a better shape. There is need to appreciate and utilize those people so that we can boost their morale through the token that we are proposing.

With those very many remarks, I strongly support the Motion. I beg that once it is passed, Hon. Injendi follows up so that we can amend the existing Act of Parliament or introduce a Bill for enactment into law for the purpose that is envisaged in the Motion. Thank you, very much.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Thank you, Hon. Member. I would urge other Members not to take all their 10 minutes. If you feel you have made your point, like the previous speaker did, give a chance to other Members who want to contribute. I now give the Floor to the Member for Laikipia West, Hon. Karani.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I was a worried man because I pressed the button immediately I entered into this Chamber. I am grateful though that you have recognized me at last. First of all, I want to join my colleagues in thanking Hon. Injendi for this very noble Motion. I represent the good people of Laikipia. Whenever we have issues of cattle rustling, the village elders do a very important job of tracing the footsteps of the raiders until the animals are recovered. Whenever the animals are recovered, the police, the chiefs, the assistant chiefs and the District Commissioners (DCs) celebrate and wait for their salaries at the end of the month. But the poor village elders go home empty-handed. In fact, they risk a lot. This is a very noble Motion. However, I would like to disagree with the Member who has said that we need to give them uniforms so that they can be identified. Those are people who act like National Intelligence Service (NIS) officers. Immediately you identify them, it will become riskier for them to perform their duties. Therefore, I disagree with that Member and wish that we can retain them the way they are. Let us give them some salaries, but let us not expose them with identification. I would like to commend the Jubilee Government for the cash transfers of Kshs2,000 to the majority of persons who have attained the age of over 65 years, orphans and people living with disabilities. It is a matter of just continuing with the programme and including the rest of those who qualify to benefit. However, I would like the Government to consider the Kenya Police Reservists (KPR) in my constituency, who are doing a very good job. They are entrusted with guns by the Government, but they are not paid anything at the end of the month. In this country, cases of terrorism have reduced to some extent. We have been watching Cable News Network (CNN) and Al Jazeera . We have seen terrorism happening in France, Europe and The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

America. In our country, terrorism has been contained because of the village elders. They help a lot in giving information. Therefore, we need to think about them. I would like to thank the village elders because they risk their lives. In fact, it is very unfair. If for instance I had some people working in my shamba and in the evening I categorize them, give food to some and leave others, that would be very unfair. That is what has been happening. I would, therefore, ask the Government to consider paying those people. Finally, in my constituency of Laikipia West, which is a settlement area, we have had many people coming to settle in the constituency. The current District Officer (DO), assistant chiefs and the DCs are new guys from the university who, apart from the certificates they have, do not have the history of the place. Whenever there are boundary disputes, the village elders are the ones who assist them in tracing the real boundaries of the constituency. I, therefore, call upon all my colleagues to support this Motion by Hon. Injendi. I support.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Thank you, Hon. Member. I now give the Floor to the Member for Matuga, Hon. Mwanyoha.

Ahsante sana Mhe. Naibu Spika wa Muda. Kabla sijaendelea, ningependa kuwafahamisha kwamba sisi ndio tunatengeneza Bajeti, na sisi tuko katika Serikali ya kitaifa. Ni jambo la kusitikisha kwamba walio katika serikali za majimbo, wanaweza kuangalia watu wao huko ilhali ni sisi ndio tunaowagawanyia pesa. Sisi tunaowagawanyia pesa watu wetu ambao wako katika Serikali ya kitaifa, ambao ni wazee wa vijiji, wanapata matatizo na shida nyingi mno. Hili ni jambo ambalo sisi wenyewe tungeliangazia kwanza kabla hatujaangalia serikali za majimbo. Ukweli ni kwamba wazee wa vijiji wanaojulikana kama

, wanafanya kazi ngumu mno na wanaifanya katika umri wowote bila kupoteza hata dakika moja. Mwenyekiti wa kijiji anaanza kazi kutoka asubuhi hadi kesho asubuhi. Akiishi miaka 60, basi atakua amefanya kazi hiyo kwa takriban miaka 60, ilhali watu wengine ambao wanafanya kazi masaa manane kwa siku wanapata mishahara minono. Nataka kuwaunga mkono wale wenzangu ambao wamesema kwamba wazee wa vijiji ndio wazee ambao wanaweza kuleta shida katika usalama, na ni wao tu ndio wanaoweza kuleta nafuu kubwa katika usalama. Kila kitu kinamwangalia yeye. Ikiwa kila kitu kinamwangalia, kule kwetu wengi sana wamepigwa risasi wakionekana kwamba wanatoa siri za watu, ni watu ambao wamepata matatizo makubwa. Wanachukiana na watu kwa sababu ya kufanya kazi nzuri kwa Serikali. Lakini Serikali imewaacha nyuma. Hawajui la kufanya. Kwa hivyo, ni wajibu wetu sisi hapa tupitishe waweze kupata mshahara, na sio mambo ya kupata eti kiinua mgongo baada ya mwaka. Hapana! Tunataka wazee wa vijiji waangaliwe mapema wapate mishahara minono. Ikiwa haiwezekani basi Wabunge wajitolee kutoa mishahara ili wazee wa vijiji waweze kufaidika pia. Leo hii imekuwa vigumu wakati mwingine kwenda kukutana na wazee wa vijiji kwa sababu ukifika pale, kwa sababu ya kukosa mshahara, na unataka wafanye kazi fulani ambayo itakusaidia wewe katika kampeni zako, wanasema kwamba wao wana njaa. Sasa inatubidi sisi Wabunge tutoe pesa kutoka mifuko yetu ili tuwapatie mapeni ya kujisitiri ilhali kazi wanayoifanya ni ya Serikali. Serikali hii yetu ninajua kwamba ina uwezo wa kuwalipa wazee wote wa vijiji ndani ya taifa hili. Ikiwa wanaweza kulipa wazee kwa mwezi Kshs2,000 au kitu kama hicho, sioni sababu yoyote wasiweze kuwalipa. Wao ndio walio juu ya wale wazee ambao wamekaa majumbani na wanalipwa kila mwezi. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Ninakumbuka Mhe. Mwadime hapa akisema kwamba yeyote atakayekataa Hoja hii achukuliwe hatua. Watu wamecheka na kuona kwamba labda anazungumza utani. Mimi ninarudia kwamba yeyote ambaye hataki kuunga mkono Hoja hii ni adui wa maendeleo na ukweli anastahili kuchukuliwa hatua ya kufaa. Mwaura awe mfano mzuri wa kuchukuliwa hatua hiyo. Kwa hayo machache ninataka kukushukuru kwa kunipatia wakati huu japo wengine waliokuja nyuma wamepewa mapema kuliko mimi. Asante.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Isaack, what is your point of order?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, is the Member in order---

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Mwaura, the Member has already completed his contribution and has sat down. You raise a point of order when the Member is on the Floor. Please take your seat, Hon. Mwaura. You are out of order. I now give the Floor to Member for Narok West, Hon. Ntutu.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this Motion of village elders. I rise to support the Motion and I want to thank Hon. Injendi for bringing it to this House. The function of the village elders in our constituencies cannot be overemphasised. All Members particularly, those who have contributed have all recognised the importance of the village elders in our various villages. As stated by my colleagues, one of the biggest jobs that they do is security. Security in this country is such an important component in our development because without peace, there would be no development. When you look at the function of village elders, they assist assistant chiefs in gathering information and solving petty crimes down there in the village. Registration of birth is such an important component of a village elder because sometimes children are born in the village and they are the ones who register them so that the information can be transferred to the hospitals for registration. We all know that when you want to organise a meeting in your village, it is always the village elders. When you call an assistant chief or a chief, they also call the village elders to organise a meeting. It is not good to give people a job that they do not get paid for. When you look at the hierarchy of Provincial Administration in the Ministry of Interior and Coordination of National Government, it used to start with the PC and went to the DC, DO, chief and assistant chief. What this Motion wants to bring is another ladder down from the assistant chief so that we can remunerate village elders. Otherwise, we are condoning corruption because at the end of the day, there is that thing that everybody keeps on mentioning, the kiinuamgongo. That is corruption. As a House, we should allow that. We should regularise payment of those village elders so that they can get some allowances. I want to urge my good friend Injendi that the Motion is not enough because it just tells the Government to do this. I want to request you to go further and I will be more than willing and all those other Members are willing to support you. Go further and draft a Bill and bring it before this House. Now that we still have one more budget cycle, we can bring this to the Departmental Committee on Budget and Appropriations Committee and agree the amount that every village elder can be paid. That is the only way we can help those village elders. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

We can bring as many Motions as we can but urging the Government is not enough. We all know that many Members have brought Motions and they are just there in the shelves, they are not helping our people. I want to urge my colleagues that we should regularise this kind of thing. Bring a Bill so that we can look at it and allocate money in the Budget because it is not enough when you tell our President or our Deputy President that we urge the Government. It is us to bring a Bill and regularise. In fact, hon. Members, you all agree with me that we still have one more budget year. That is June next year. The only way we can help those village elders is to put money to the budget of the Ministry of Interior and coordination of National Government so that they can be paid. Otherwise, I want to support this Motion. I support by urging my colleagues to do that. By doing that, you will have helped a whole country and everybody will remember you and this 11th Parliament for doing something that will help our people. With those very few remarks, I want to support this Motion. Thank you.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): I now give the Floor to the Member for Kabuchai, Hon. Mukwe.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I want to congratulate Hon. Injendi for bringing this Motion. What we are discussing is important. In some areas, we have physically handicapped children whose mothers hide in their houses. The people who get information and report are village elders. Sometimes those village elders get some lost children and take them to their homes before the report is taken to police. Those people are working day and night without any pay. During the campaign against polio, tuberculosis and measles, those are the people who direct the nurses to carry out the exercise. They are working on empty stomachs and cover long distances without any pay. Those are the people who unite people when there are differences like a quarrel between a wife and a husband. Those are the people who normally go there first to unite them or to bring them together so that the case is settled. Some petty cases are not taken to court because those are the people who go and unite people. They bring peace to quarrelling families. They know the boundaries. They are the ones who also accompany the Nyumba Kumi people to keep peace in our areas. However, when it comes to payment, they are not paid. So, it is good for them to be paid so that they feel they are Kenyans. A Kenyan who is working on an empty stomach without pay cannot feel good because his children must go to school. If they are sick, they must be taken to hospital. They must eat and dress. However, when it comes to payment, they must get paid. Chiefs have offices, but those have none. They go around gathering information to be taken to the assistant chiefs or chiefs. Chiefs are paid while those people are not. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, during public barazas, those are the people who prepare sitting arrangements and are never paid. The chiefs who are paid arrive in their offices to get information from the village elders. When it comes to identification cards, they are the people who vet youths because they know them in the villages. They are the people who normally identify youths who get identification cards. They do so without pay and on empty stomachs. It is high time those people are paid as it was suggested by Hon. Injendi. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, they also identify projects in various areas. That is because when projects are identified by village elders, it will be very easy for them to be taken to the Location Development Committee for funding. Since Independence, they have been working for the Government. They are informers of the assistant chiefs and chiefs, but they are not paid. With those few remarks, I wish to congratulate Hon. Injendi. I support the Motion. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Thank you, Hon. Member. I now give the Floor to Hon. Dori.

Ahsante sana, Naibu Spika wa Muda kwa kunipa fursa hii nichangie Hoja hii ambayo ni muhimu sana na inahusu wazee wetu wa vijiji. Kwanza, nataka kutoa hongera kubwa zaidi kwa Mheshimiwa Malulu kwa kuokoa ndoto ambayo imesumbua sana wazee wetu wa vijiji. Kwa hakika, wazee wa vijiji ni watu muhimu sana katika taifa letu la Kenya. Kwa maoni yangu, nataka niseme ya kwamba, wazee wa vijiji ni wana muhimu zaidi ya machifu na manaibu wao, ambao wanawakilisha ofisi za utawala. Nataka niunge mkono Hoja hii moja kwa moja. Mimi ndiye muathiriwa mkubwa. Wazee wa vijiji wameathirika katika hali ya utendakazi wao wanapowakilisha mambo tafouti ambayo ni ya kiserikali. Katika Eneo Bunge la Msambweni, kuna wadi nne. Wadi moja inaitwa Gombatobongwe. Nataka kukuhakikishia kwamba wale wazee wa vijiji ambo wamepoteza maisha yao katika miaka miwili wakiwa katika taratibu za utendakazi ni zaidi ya 30. Kwa hivyo, mimi ni muathiriwa mkubwa kutokana na wazee wa kijiji waliopoteza maisha yao katika utendakazi. Kwa niaba ya watu wa Msambweni, tuko tayari kuunga mkono Hoja hii kwa kusema sio kulipwa kila mwezi peke yake, lakini ni lazima viangaliwe vipengele vingi sana ambavyo vitamwezesha yule mzee wa kijiji kwa zile huduma ambazo anapeana ziwe zinaenda sambamba na mapato yatakayotolewa. Kwa mfano, mbali na kuwa atalipwa, tumtengee mshahara mwisho wa mwezi. Vile vile, tuwe tumetenga fidia ili wakati ambapo mzee wa kijiji amepatikana na janga lolote, familia yake inaweza kupewa fidia. Pili, wale wazee wa vijiji wengi wao hawakuweza kupata masomo hapo awali. Kwa hivyo, itakuwa vyema ikiwa tukipitisha Hoja hii, wazee hao watatengewa kitengo ambacho kitawawezesha kupata masomo wakati wanatoa huduma kwa wananchi. Vile vile, naona katika ofisi ya wizara ya usalama, kumetengwa pesa za kuwanunulia machifu na manaibu wao vyombo vya usafiri. Pia itakuwa vyema wakati tunapitisha Hoja hii, wale wazee wa vijiji, tuwatambue kama viungo muhimu ili katika Bajeti yetu, wao pia wawe ni baadhi ya wale watakaonunuliwa vyombo vya usafiri. Nataka niongeze nikisema ya kwamba wazee wa vijiji ni washauri wakubwa sana katika hili taifa la Kenya kwa ajili kila jambo ambalo linafanyika katika sehemu zote za kenya linaanzia vijijini. Katika upande wa vitambulisho, upande wa mashamba na usalama, wazee wa vijiji wanafanya kazi muhimu ili kuhakikisha mambo hayo yote yamefanyika. Kwa hivyo, nawaomba viongozi wenzangu wapitishe Hoja hii. Mheshimiwa Malulu amechelewa kuuleta huu Mswada. Angekuwa ameuleta mapema, hii Bajeti ambayo imekwisha tungekuwa tayari sisi tumewajumuisha wazee wa vijiji ili waanze kupata malipo yao moja kwa moja. Kwa hivyo, nashukuru na kuunga mkono Hoja hii na vile vile, nataka nieleze ofisi ya usalama iliyo chini ya Waziri Nkaissery kwamba, kule Msambweni, katika wadi ndogo ya Gombatobongwe, wako wazee wa vijiji ambao ni zaidi ya 30 ambao wamepoteza maisha yao kwa ajili ya ukosefu wa usalama wakati walipokuwa wakifanya kazi. Lazima kuwe na taratibu ya familia za hao wazee kulipwa fidia. Isiwe watu wengine wanaofanyia Serikali kazi wanafidiwa na wazee wa vijiji hawapewi fidia yoyote, bali wanapatiwa pole na mambo yanasahaulika. Naunga mkono Hoja hii na Mungu ajalie ili ipite kwa wakati mwafaka kabla ya Bunge la Kumi na Moja halijamalizika. Ahsante sana Mheshimiwa Naibu Spika wa Muda.

Thank you, Hon. Member. I now give the Floor to the Member for Nambale, Hon. Bunyasi. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I rise to support this Motion. I think of the many things that we debate in this House and discuss, this is one of the most important Motions that have come before the House. I would like to thank my colleague Hon. Injendi for bringing it forward. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, in Kenya, the Government stands tall with the President at the apex. Just like a Mvuli tree, he stands tall and straight without very big leaves because it has deep roots. Those deep roots that sustain the presidency are those layers of people. Those people are many, diverse and slow. We rely on them on a wide variety of services. Many of them have been mentioned. There is the implication that they can get a token. We should think seriously about incorporating them in the service. Ligurus are not old men. They are invariably people in their 20s, 30s and a few older ones. We call them old elders because they are given roles of using wisdom rather than education. They need that wisdom. They render arbitration services which are rendered by police officers in other countries and urban areas. Police officers depend crucially on village elders. If you have a crisis in the middle of the night, you turn to them, and send people to them.

I have a farm, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. My neighbour had cut down my trees without permission. I did not rush to the police officers because the nearest police post is 20 kilometres away. I sent someone to the Ligurus . They render a crucial and critical service. I am sure the Government relies on them to get accurate information at the grassroots. We rely on them on basic development and security services. They deserve recognition. I had a meeting with my Liguru last month. I have 151 of them. One of their requests is to get uniform. This is amazing. Somebody said earlier that they should be held private. However, they render a public service. Everybody knows their role. They need some salaries or periodic allowances. I do not think we can overemphasise the need to get it right this time. Unfortunately, the issues come up every cycle of five years. Five years in this country lead to general elections. It may appear as if we are doing it because we are about to go for the general elections. They truly deserve to be incorporated formally into the service.

I hope this Motion will be passed. I do not think of a single reason why any Member would oppose this Motion. After it is passed, I hope some formal process will be initiated. If that will be the case, I urge Hon. Injendi to try and get this Motion into legislation, so that we can force the Government‟s hand to begin to act in this particular regard. In my community, the village elders deal with domestic violence, land disputes and delinquency by youths like absenteeism from school, mobilisation for Government services like identification cards registration, mobilisation for voting and identification of all anti-social elements in the society. Those people do this without much formal education and other institutional support. They rely entirely on accurate local knowledge and information they provide to the administrative system. In any other country, the village elders would have been recognised, and put much higher than some of the people who are paid from the public payroll. I will not mention them. We have 151 Ligurus in Nambale Constituency, both men and women. Twenty per cent of the Ligurus are women. They deal with unique issues. One of the women said she goes around homesteads talking to women. She assists them with domestic organisation, encourages them to have vegetable gardens and to be a bit more tolerant. She also advises them how to run their families without disputes. They deal with violence prevention. I was highly impressed. We have serious problems with health issues and those women are on the forefront in working with households.They deny themselves time because their only source of income is their labour. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

When they wake up early to go and support the assistant chief, chiefs, politicians and other people who call upon them and rely on to mobilise people, they deny themselves time to use their labour to earn income. So, there is income lost in the activities they do. This is a very important Motion that, for once, seeks to put an end to this.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, as I conclude, this is an important day and I hope that sooner or later, we will put as much effort as we can and enjoin it in law.

With those remarks few remarks, I strongly support.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): I now give the Floor to Hon. Bishop Mutua.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. First of all to I would like to thank Hon. Malulu Injendi for this great Motion and urge him to bring it back as legislation so that we can vote some money for it.

Those traditional leaders that we have always ignored are very important in society. Those are the structures that hold our society together. In fact, they provide alternative dispute resolution mechanisms. They solve more problems than those that are taken to courts. Those people are naturally accepted by the communities because of the way they live. They are held in high esteem and their word is trusted by the society. Those are the people whose words we should take because their word is trusted by the society where they live. They have been volunteers for long. Even foreign volunteers who come to Kenya are normally given a stipend to live on but, the ones who have been there for many years and have been working have nothing to rely on.

We now need to pay those village elders and on top of that institute a villager elders‟ recognition day when the whole country shall celebrate their voluntary services. We need to give them the necessary recognition for the service they give. They are articulate and their work is specialised such that not anybody can play their role. Society must first of all accept you as a village elder before you can play that role. So, even though we are saying that some of them are not educated, they have natural wisdom. It is this natural wisdom that is recognised and used by the society to sort out their problems.

Village elders are actually counsellors. They counsel in many cases. They are family counsellors and village consultants. They are consulted almost on every issue that comes up and affects the society. Therefore, we need to recognise that they are held in high esteem and the Government of Kenya needs to hold them in such high esteem also. This particular group is so important that anyone who would like to do anything and ignores them is bound to fail. Why is that the case? It is because these are the people who know what considerations should be taken into account and are custodians of the local knowledge. We cannot continue to mishandle them. The only regret I have is that we have discussed a lot about this. We have said many good things but they are not implementable because there is no legislation. We need to move with speed and make this an Act so that we can have an opportunity to negotiate with the Budget and Appropriations Committee to put it in the Budget. We are saying a lot of good thing; we are urging the Government, but where will the money come from? We are the people who are supposed to be doing the Budget, but we are saying other people should do it. It is this House that budgets for these activities. The way we are bringing this important issue is not the right way. Can we turn this into a Bill so that we can debate and pass it then allocate funding for this activity? The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

As I conclude, I want to make an appeal to this nation. Time has come for us to look at our traditional structures of governance and begin to recognise them. Some of them are far much superior to those others we are borrowing from elsewhere. Even traditional leadership of the clans can be used to sort a lot of problems. They can address issues of child neglect and street children. We have not recognised them. There is no clan in this country that cannot take care of its children. We need to have a commission that will go round the country and revive some of the useful structures that were intentionally killed by the Colonial Government for the purpose of governing us. Some of the traditions were not bad. They were very important and are still very powerful. They can bring us together and sort out some of the problems we are experiencing in using modern strategies that cannot work at the grassroots. Let us use this opportunity to re- evaluate out traditional leadership structures and see what can work for us. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): I now give the Floor to Hon. Mary Emaase, Member for Teso South.

Thank you for the opportunity, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I did not have my card today, but I will make sure I have it next time. I want to add my voice to the debate. First is to congratulate Hon. Injendi for bringing forth this very important Motion. I want to just mention to the Member who has just spoken that this debate is not in vain. It is very timely. We are generating that much needed awareness so that we begin to appreciate the work the village elders are doing as Kenyans. We call them Lugurus in my area. I am sure it will go a long way in enriching whatever legislation will be brought forth towards implementing the request of the Hon. Member. The work that is being done by these Lugurus or village elders is very important and critical. We must acknowledge that fact. Every time I have met my village elders, all they have had to say is “ Mheshimiwa, why can we not be recognised and get some kind of appreciation or token for the work we are doing?” We know these village elders play a very big role in dispute resolution. In my area, there are very many cases of child pregnancies, child molestation and very sensitive family issues. Sometimes, the village elders have put their lives at risk because they have to report against the will of the family members concerned. They are the people who are helping this country decongest courts. Some of the petty issues are resolved by the village elders. Besides family matters, we know we have very many land cases. There are very many land issues in my area. There are conflicts regarding boundaries and they end up in the homesteads of the Lugurus who have to resolve them. Otherwise, all those cases would end in the courts. What I want to say to save time so that another Member can contribute is that we must support this Motion. I support it. The Mover has to follow to see to it that we move to the next level where we have legislation. As the Vice Chairlady of the Budget and Appropriations Committee and my very able Chairman, Hon. Mutava is seated here, once we have legislation and the respective Departmental Committee has made a provision and it is brought to our Committee, we are going to support and make sure we avail funding so that these village elders can be supported. If we need more mobilisation, we will go to the village elders. When we need children to support through our bursaries, they know the needy and the poorest child in that village. These gentlemen, great women and ladies play a great role and they have personal responsibilities. They have family obligations. They have their own children to take to school and they have no salary. How do we expect them to survive? How do we expect them to The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

effectively provide these services and take these services closer to the people? They need to be comfortable and they need to be supported by the Government. Being at the lowest level of national Government administration I have seen that county governments are actually employing what they call “village administrators” and these men and women will be on their payroll. They will be paid salaries. So, village elders are actually the face of national Government at the very lowest level of national Government administration. We must recognize them and I think it is important that the village elders; the Lugurus are appreciated. The work they do must be acknowledged and some kind of salary should be provided so that they can live a comfortable life. Their children need to be educated and taken to the university like any other child because they have at least some salary. Thank you, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity. I support this Motion.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): I now give the Floor to Hon. Wangamati.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity. I want, first, to thank Hon. Injendi for bringing this important Motion in this House so that we are able to consider leadership at the grassroots level. While I was seated here, I heard hon. Members in this House express themselves and I am happy at my age they know these people are important in all matters including security and land matters in this country. I want to thank Members of Parliament for what they have said. Lastly, I want to thank the Vice Chairlady of the Budget and Appropriations Committee for accepting to support this issue so that these elders can get a salary even this year. I am very happy. One thing I want to say is that the village elders have lived with us for a long time. They lived with us before the Colonial Government came to colonise this country. They found village elders there. They were the people who determined the provincial, district and locational boundaries. They had to communicate with other village elders in neighbouring communities. They kept our dialogue alive. The residents of this country have enjoyed good relationship with their neighbours because of the elders from each community. Those people were there when the Colonial Government came. They were not given anything. When the Colonial Government wanted to employ chiefs and assistant chiefs, they went to look for them among the village elders who were able to look after a location or a sub-location. However, when we got Independence, people started employing Administration Police (APs). So, they never got promotions. They have worked without being promoted for a long time because they had no qualifications. I agree with every speaker in this House. What has been said is important. Now that the Chairman of the Budge and Appropriations Committee is here, let us make those people happy. It will be a landmark for the 11th Parliament if it initiates a programme to make those people get salaries and allowances. It will have done a wonderful thing for this country. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity. Hon. Injendi, I thank you very much for what you have done. I wholeheartedly support this Motion. I also support Members of Parliament (MPs) who have supported this Motion.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): I now give the Floor to the Member for Nakuru County, Hon. Mary Mbugua.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this chance to air my views. First of all, I thank Hon. Malulu for bringing this noble and very important Motion. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Those village elders are very important people. They are selected by the community because of their skills. They have leadership qualities and are committed. Moreover, their morals are known and they are of high integrity. Those village elders are experienced. We also know that experience is a good teacher. They are senior citizens and they have wisdom. Proverbs 1 in the Bible says that a wise man or woman can build a house. So, those people are building villages. They are on the ground and they have information. We need people who have information. Another very important thing is that those village leaders or elders are a jack of all trade. It means that they play the role of teachers, judges, counsellors and pastors. We need to empower, support and recognise them. There is burning of schools all over the country and I want to mention that because I can see students in the Galleries. Once those students burn schools, they go back to the villages. The village elders hold meetings with them and do guidance and counselling. We should empower, support and recognise their efforts. With those few remarks, I support.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): If you did not get an opportunity today, you still have a chance because the Motion will continue next week. I now give the Floor to Hon. (Ms.) Jessica Mbalu.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I had almost lost hope. I want to go on record as supporting this Motion. I would like to congratulate Hon. Malulu Injendi for coming up with this important Motion which urges the national Government to consider giving a monthly or annual honorarium to village elders as a means of appreciating their services and encouraging them to uphold their dedication to the community. Village elders are important representatives of the people. Chiefs and sub-chiefs do a lot of work. It will be an oversight if we do not consider them. Many Members have stated that this House is just urging, and not resolving. We should think further how the Motions that are passed in this Parliament are implemented. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Members have proposed various ways in which we can appreciate our village elders, including provision for empowering and appreciating them in the Budget. Village elders solve petty issues and disputes, and handle security issues. In my constituency, village elders ensure that there is security and they also solve any dispute. They do better work than the chiefs and sub-chiefs who rely on them for information. Those elders do not even have transport to enable them travel from one point to another, and it is only through this House that we can think of a way, especially in the Budget to consider them. In my constituency, we call them atumia ma ndua and since people are watching, I am sure they will tell them that this House was considering a Motion to urge the national Government to give them monthly or annual honorarium. We should not only urge the Government but we should also factor it in the Budget. I can see the Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee is here, and he must make sure that it is done. Village elders will hold him accountable. I support.

(Hon. (Ms.) Shebesh): Hon. Injendi, Members are urging you to go further on this issue. We debated this same matter, which was brought by Hon. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Eugene Wamalwa who is now the CS for Water in the 10th Parliament. From where I sit, all Members support this Motion but I would like us to go further on this issue. We have not finished the debate because we still have 45 minutes next Wednesday and you can respond at that point.

The time being 1.00 p.m., this House stands adjourned until this afternoon at 2.30 p.m.

The House rose at 1.00 p.m.

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