(Hon. (Ms.) Tuya): Hon. Members, I order that the Quorum Bell be rung for 10 minutes so that we can begin.

Order Members, I can ascertain that we now have quorum and we can begin.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table of the House: The Traffic (Driving Schools, Driving Instructors & Driving Licences) Rules Regulations, 2018 and the Explanatory Memorandum.

Special Audit Report of the Auditor-General on the accounts of the Ministry of Health for the Financial Year 2015/2016.

The Reports of the Auditor-General and Financial Statements in respect of the following institutions for the year ended 30th June 2017 and the certificates therein: a) National Exchequer Account; b) School Equipment Production Unit; c) State Department of Public Service and Youth; d) Kenya Education Management Institute; e) Commission on Administrative Justice; f) Kenya National Commission on Human Rights; g) State Department of Transport; h) Kenya Industrial Research and Development Institute; i) Privatisation Commission; j) State Department of Vocational and Technical Training – Vote 1064; k) Centre for Mathematics, Science and Technology Education in Africa; and l) Kenya Institute of Special Education.

(Hon. (Ms.) Tuya): Next Order! The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to give notices of the following Motions: THAT, aware that agriculture is the mainstay of the Kenyan economy contributing to food security and employment of rural households; further aware that the recurrent drought being experienced in many parts of the country has adversely affected this sector leading to a worrying drop in production particularly among the coconut farmers in Kilifi County; noting that farmers in Kilifi have not only suffered losses of income for their livelihood due to drought but are also faced with huge debts resulting from high interest levied for default on loans advanced to them for coconut production; recognising that the Government of Kenya in 2016 launched the Kenya National Agricultural Insurance Programme which is designed to among other things, address the challenges that agricultural producers face when there are large production shocks…

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to be heard in silence.

Order Members. Order Leader of the Majority Party. You have become too nomadic a leader. Please, minimise your movements.

Thank you for protecting me, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I beg to give notice of the following Motion: THAT, aware that agriculture is the mainstay of the Kenyan economy contributing to food security and employment of rural households; further aware that the recurrent drought being experienced in many parts of the country has adversely affected this sector leading to a worrying drop in production particularly among the coconut farmers in Kilifi County; noting that farmers in Kilifi have not only suffered losses of income for their livelihood due to drought but are also faced with huge debts resulting from high interest levied for default on loans advanced to them for coconut production; recognising that the Government of Kenya in 2016 launched the Kenya National Agricultural Insurance Programme which is designed to, among other things, address the challenges that agricultural producers face when there are large production shocks such as drought and floods, with focus on livestock insurance and maize and wheat insurance, this House urges the Government to provide financial support as disaster relief to the affected coconut farmers in Kilifi County and put in place sustainable measures to mitigate future drought-related losses through inclusion of coconut insurance under the National Agricultural Insurance Programme. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

Hon. Baya, you have two notices of Motions.

Yes, I would like to present the other Notice of Motion.

Please go ahead.

REVIVAL OF CASHEW NUT SUB-SECTOR IN KENYA The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

THAT, aware that agriculture is the mainstay of the Kenyan economy contributing to food security and employment of rural households; further aware that cashew nuts are mainly grown at the Coast region of Kenya producing about 10,000 metric tonnes of the nuts valued at Kshs264.9 million; recognising that Kenya has a potential to produce more than 63,000 metric tonnes valued at over Kshs1 billion; noting that the sub-sector has the potential to create many employment opportunities through value addition and fetch the Exchequer millions of shillings through exports; deeply concerned that cashew nuts farming in Kenya has continued to face key challenges, among them low producer prices which has seen many farmers cut down their trees, appreciating that Kilifi, a region at the coast of Kenya used to be a major producer of cashew nuts in the 1980s, but the production has since dwindled, which led to among other things the fraudulent sale of Kilifi Cashew Nuts Factory, loss of livelihoods for the farmers and subsequently increased poverty levels; this House urges the Government to put in place measures to revive the cashew nut industry in the country. Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

(Hon. (Ms.) Tuya): Next Order.

(Hon. (Ms.) Tuya): The Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move the following Motion: THAT, this House orders that the business appearing as Order Nos.9 and 10 in the Order Paper be exempted from the provisions of Standing Order 40(3), being a Wednesday Morning, a day allocated for Business not sponsored by the Majority or Minority Party or Business sponsored by a committee. This is just in line with what we are going to do after this Procedural Motion, that the next sitting days, starting with yesterday afternoon, we will just be dealing with Committee of Supply, a very important aspect of the budget-making process of this House. In line with that, the House Business Committee (HBC) reached a decision last night that we exempt business from the provisions of Standing Order 40(3), this being the day allocated for Private Members. So, this is just to make sure that as a House we follow the procedures. I would ask the Leader of the Minority Party, who was also in the HBC meeting, to second and ask the House to approve the Motion, so that we can go to the real business of Committee of Supply. Before I ask the Leader of the Minority Party to second, let us maintain quorum, colleagues. Yesterday it was very good. Those of us who are fasting have no choice. I do not know why the Muslim Members of Parliament are not here. They do not even go to the lounge to have tea. So, they can sit here between now and 6.30 p.m., until the time for opening of the fasting comes. Let us maintain the 50-Member quorum so that we can all participate in the budget-making process.

(Hon. (Ms.) Tuya): Leader of the Minority Party.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I rise to second this Procedural Motion. I just want to plead with the Members that we know there are a number of Private Members’ Motions that are lined up for debate, but because of the period of budget- The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

making, we want to plead with them to allow us to exempt the business of the House today from the provisions of Standing Order 40(3). Finally, I also want to echo what the Leader of the Majority Party has said regarding yesterday’s performance of Members. I think it was very impressive. It was a clear demonstration that Members take seriously their legislative work, especially that of the budget- making. That is the single most important function of this House. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I second.

Put the Question.

Next Order.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

(Hon. (Ms.) Tuya): Leader of the Majority Party, what is out of order?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I think the people of Kisumu Central must be watching. I do not think this is why they have sent Hon. Ouda to this House. Very soon, I will go to Kisumu. The people of Kisumu did not send him to just say no to everything, even to a Procedural Motion.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, tell him to sit down. We are not in Kisumu County Assembly. This is the august House. He said more than 100 noes yesterday.

(Hon. (Ms.) Tuya): Order, Member for Kisumu Central. You are out of order. The Leader of the Majority Party is prosecuting a point of order. Be seated.

Members, if you remember, there was one time an MCA undressed. If you did not know, that was Hon. Ouda. This is the man. When you come to the august House, you must behave like an honourable Member. Yesterday, he said no over 100 times. The people of Kisumu Central, who I know, and I have campaigned there for other colleagues, and the Leader of the Minority Party knows, are very enlightened voting segment of this country. They did not send him to say no to everything that comes to the House.

(Hon. (Ms.) Tuya): Very well, Leader of the Majority Party. I will not entertain this. Each Member has a right to either affirm or oppose whatever it is. We have freedom of expression here. The Member for Kisumu Central, I do not know which Speaker you are addressing, because you are talking of Mr. Speaker and there is none here. So, we will proceed. Next Order.

(Hon. (Ms.) Tuya): Before we move to the next Order, I wish to recognise and welcome students from Asumbi Girls High School at the Speaker’s Gallery. They are from Rangwe Constituency, Homa Bay County. We also have students from Premier Academy, from Westlands, Nairobi County, in the Public Gallery. We also have Kihumbuini Primary School from Westlands in Nairobi. You are all welcome. Next Order.

Hon. Members, we are now in the Committee of Supply and I hope we shall continue with the spirit of last evening so that we make good progress on this. On your Order Paper, you will see Vote No.1107. That is where we will start from, namely, Ministry of Water Services and Sanitation.

On a point of order.

What is out of order Hon. Deputy Leader of the Minority Party?

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. When we debated the Budget yesterday, there are two proposed amendments that the House rejected. At the end of the day, when the Chairperson was reporting to the Speaker, the Leader of the Majority Party was asked to second the Motion of the Report. He stood and told the House and Kenyans at large that basically those two rejections were an exercise in futility. He said that not only will he recommit them, but there is no money whether we pass money for roads or not. So, what is the purpose then of these deliberations on the Budget if clearly the Leader of the Majority Party is telling us that whatever we do here has no consequence at all? I would like a clarification.

Hon. Member, you know that this is the august House and the pronouncements made by this House are pronouncements made on behalf of the nation. The Leader of the Majority Party may have his opinions about things that are done here but once the House pronounces itself, it is the House of the nation. So, that is the position. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Leader of the Majority Party, do you have a clarification to make?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I want to make it very clear that the House does not act in vain. Everything that this House passes or does must be implementable and that is what I meant. For instance, the figure allocated by the Constitution for the Equalisation Fund is a certain percentage. So, if this House passes an allocation that is twice that percentage contrary to what is in the law, then that is an amendment in vain. Secondly, if this House passes a provision that, in the opinion of the Budget and Appropriations Committee (BAC), falls within the deficit level of the amount of money that was allocated, then that means the money is in deficit and, therefore, not there. That is what I meant and I still want to go on record that for the Equalisation Fund, we have asked the Budget Office of Parliament to do a document between now and tomorrow or next week to tell us what the actual amount the Constitution has provided this financial year based on the law. The amount for the Equalisation Fund is known based on the last audited account. We have told the Budget Office to provide that to us. Once we know the amount, and if there is an error that the Cabinet Secretary for the National Treasury has done, we can then correct it. The other one was on roads. The Chairman of the Committee in charge of roads is here today. He was the only chairperson missing here yesterday. We want him to be given an opportunity to deal with the matter on roads instead of him disappearing. You must tell the House whether there is money given in the amendment that we rejected. At the end of the day, we want money. That Kshs30 million must go to our constituencies. We cannot pass things here in vain. So, the Chairman must tell us whether arising from the action we took yesterday, we will have the Kshs30 million.

Hon. Members, we shall not get into these side shows. The House pronounced itself on these issues yesterday. People can have different opinions about the implications of whatever decision this House makes, but the House would have made a decision. However, going back into these suppositions of what might or might not be, when we know very well what we passed yesterday as a House, I do not think that is where we want to be. We want to make progress. So, I propose that we make progress.

There is an amendment to this, let us have the Chair, Budget and Appropriations Committee.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I beg to move: The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

THAT, the proposed allocation under the Programme in respect of Development Estimates, the figure Kshs32,311,390,000 be deleted and substituted thereof with the figure Kshs32,568,390,000.

Hon. Members will note that there is problem in the Order Paper. That figure has been printed as Kshs32,568,390,000. This is just a transposition of the figures instead of Kshs32,586,390,000. This is a typographical error.

Hon. Chair, you may want to indicate that you are moving it in an amended form.

Yes.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

Very well, the Leader of the Majority Party.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I think the Clerk’s Office must be fair to this House. We cannot amend figures on the Order Paper. Somebody must take responsibility. The Chair is not under obligation to move items in amended form. Whoever typed and printed this must take responsibility. I want you to make a statement on this. We cannot be telling Members to be here and then whoever is dealing with this matter brings documents with errors.

As you can remember, in the 10th Parliament, the current President went through hell when the National Treasury printed Estimates with some errors. What we are dealing with is similar to Estimates. We cannot have an Order Paper with errors. How do we know that as we move forward, we will encounter more errors? Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, please, give direction on that error. It is not for Hon. Ichung’wah to come and move it in an amended form. He has done his work and wants to move figures as per the Budget Estimates approved by his Committee.

Very well. Chair, kindly proceed with your prosecution of the proposed amendment before I give direction.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I move as amended because it has an error. Err is human. I agree with the Leader of the Majority Party that the Clerk’s Office and the people typing the Order Paper need to be more meticulous. Otherwise, the famous computer errors may subject me to another series of mob justice, like it happened yesterday.

It is also good to mention what the Leader of the Majority Party has said, that in situations of mob justice, logic and reason never prevail and this is a true position. Indeed, we as Members of Parliament have shot ourselves in the foot. The question of the Equalisation Fund, as the Leader of the Majority Party said is that simple. It was a correction of an overprovision beyond what is provided for in law. As legislators who make these laws, why would we want to pass anything that is contravening the law and one that defeats logic and reason?

Chair, you must keep yourself within the scope of what is before the House.

Well guided, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. The amendment relates to a figure of Kshs275 million, money that the Departmental Committee…

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

Hon. Ouda, there is nothing out of order. Let him finish because there is nothing before us until he finishes. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman for your protection from Hon. Ouda. It is his custom to stand on frivolous points of order, when there is nothing out of order.

Chair, please, let us make progress.

The Kshs275 million relates to movement of money from the School Greening Programme. As you can remember, this programme was scandal-ridden. It was reported in the media to have lost Kshs2 billion for planting trees which could not be seen in primary and secondary schools across the country. Therefore, the Committee has taken the money it was allocated of Kshs450 million. Out of the Kshs275 million, Urban Rivers Rehabilitation Project has been allocated Kshs100 million. The Kshs145 million to Tana Water Services Board for rehabilitation of water supplies and the last mile connectivity, Kshs60 million to the Lake Victoria North Water Service Board for the rehabilitation of Kipyonget Water Supply, the Coast Water Services Board for the rehabilitation of water supply and the last mile connectivity.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, with your guidance, can I go to the next amendment?

I can see only one amendment in the Order Paper. You have another one?

Well guided, I have seen it is in the same department, but under Environment.

Thank you, very well.

Hon. Ouda, you have priority here.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I have two observations. One, it is good to note that matters which were deliberated in this House yesterday have passed and they should not be brought back to this House. The Leader of the Majority Party and the Chair of the Budget and Appropriations Committee should declare their interest on this. If they have special interests, let them notify this House so that we can know where to place them. Two, it is good for you to protect me.

Hon. Ouda, you are protected.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, let me say something. I was elected with over 87,000 votes. The Leader of the Majority Party got about 12,000 votes. It is bad for him to insult or belittle me before my constituents. I have a right to affirm or not affirm any matter in this House. I have a right to say nay or agree. So, the Leader of the Majority Party should know that if we go by the votes I got, I can be senior in this House. The Leader of the Majority Party, please, respect me.

Hon. Ouda, although you are out of order, I think on the matters you have raised, I have already given direction on them. We will not repeat what we did yesterday. In all events, every Member has a right to vote in whatever manner, either yes or nay as their conscience allows them. So, you are in order to vote as you wish and as many times. Nobody can take that right away from you. You are fully protected in that respect.

Hon. Members, I wish we make progress. On top of my list here, I can see Hon. Maanzo, Member for Makueni is interested. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I want to observe that the Ministry of Water Services and Sanitation and the votes therein are important. Although, this matter is in both national and county levels, there has been an allocation to the management of water services, where this Ministry has already made provisions. There are committees which manage water services at the grassroots and national level. A lot of times, there are issues as to who is in-charge. Although money has been allocated, in future, we would like to see proper use of this money and ensure that water management and services are provided to the people under the boards. For example, the Tana and Athi Rivers Development Authority (TARDA) should be included. They should coordinate with the counties so that the money is well utilised and services are provided to the people with least resistance and wastage at the grassroots level. That has been quite common and we hope this time the Budget will be utilised properly so that there are no squabbles and the money collected there - because they raise money by selling water - can be accounted for and can also be part of the Budget.

We shall have Hon. Lodepe Nakara, Member for Turkana Central.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I am so surprised that the Chairman of the BAC has removed money from the feeding programme, which is an enticing issue in pastoralist areas. In most of our schools, students are being encouraged to go to school because of food. Removing money from the feeding programme to another programme will reduce the number of students going to school at an early age. Please, Hon. Chairman, return that money back to the feeding programme.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

I do not think there is any point of order. He is within his right. I will give the opportunity to Hon. Jomo Washiali.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I thank the Chairman of BAC for having included this. This was a decision taken by the Departmental Committee on Environmental and Natural Resources and this was our proposal. If Kshs200 million was properly used, today we should be seeing a difference in schools in terms of the trees that would have been planted. However, for those Members, especially my colleague, who is talking of having to put the money to the school greening programme, I am sure he will even bear witness that there is very little that has been done in terms of school greening. Until we put oversight mechanisms in place, I think as a Committee, we are not going to allow this to continue.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

Hon. Chachu Ganya, what is out of order?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, what I wanted to…

Hon. Washiali, there is a point of order which is being claimed by Hon. Chachu Ganya.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I am a pastoralist like my brother here and I will always support the school feeding programme. However, he is misleading the House. The money that is being reallocated is from the school greening programme and not the school feeding programme. He is misleading the House.

If that is the case, Members, we need to make progress. Can I give you this so that you can make a decision one way or the other? Hon. Onyonka, you do not have your card. What is out of order? The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I wanted to mitigate this point this way. Actually, for us in the BAC, the issue that we raised was very simple. Yes, this money was allocated for schools and yet, indeed, we had expected the money to be allocated pro-rata to every school or to every constituency. What we discovered is that some of this amount of money was just going to certain schools and other schools were not getting the money. So, we felt it would create a disadvantage for others when others were getting the advantage. That is the reason why we felt that it was a good idea to shift it somewhere else.

Hon. Members, I will give it to you so that you can make a decision.

Let us deal with the programmes.

Let us have the Chair of BAC. There are proposed amendments here.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, the proposed allocation under the Programme in respect of Development Estimates, the figure Kshs3,462,000,000 be deleted and substituted thereof with the figure Kshs3,012,000,000; Programme

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

THAT, the proposed allocation under the Programme in respect of Development Estimates, the figure Kshs1,624,700,000 be deleted and substituted thereof with the figure Kshs.1,724,700,000. Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, as I had mentioned, you realise the first one is the Kshs450,000,000 that I had said is being reallocated to water bodies. A figure of Kshs450,000,000 is what has been reallocated to water bodies that were in the first amendment. Since it was the same departmental committee, they moved water from the Ministry of Environment and Forestry to the water department. The second one was an increment of Kshs100,000,000, which is towards the urban rivers rehabilitation project that is going towards the Nairobi Regeneration Programme.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

What is out of order, Hon. Makali?

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I am getting concerned as a Member of this House because yesterday we passed a Procedural Motion to debate some of these amendments and you are gagging us from debating. An amendment is moved by the Chair, we cannot even comment and you put a Question. You are being unfair to us, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

It is noted that we need to have debate on this for, at least, 30 minutes.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, as much as there are no amendments, it is important. Members will remember that this is the Committee that was investigating the matter of the Ruaraka High School land. We saw the Chair of the National Lands Commission (NLC) in the Press the day before yesterday aggressively fighting because of that report. It is incumbent on the Departmental Committee on Lands to table the report that they have come up with. The Budget and Appropriations Committee declined to approve the Kshs1.5 billion that had already been paid under Article 223 of the Constitution. That payment remains illegal in the eyes of this House. There is still a claim of Kshs1.7 billion on the same land. There are very many issues around that Ruaraka land. There are also issues including the land belonging to the General Service Unit (GSU). It is important that the Departmental Committee on Lands tables their report to guide the Budget and Appropriations Committee on what actions to take on all those other pending bills. There is the pending bill of Kshs1.7 billion and some money that is still being claimed on the GSU land. Therefore, I just wanted to take this opportunity to encourage the Departmental Committee on Lands to finish the investigations as well as the other investigations being done by the Senators.

Is the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Lands here? She is not here. Just hold on, Hon. Onyonka. I will allow you your say on this after Hon. Mutai Kiplang’at, Member for Bureti.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. First and foremost, I just want to commend the Budget and Appropriations Committee for not condoning an illegality. If this amount had been allocated, we would have been seen to be perpetuating an illegality as a House. We need to know what the Departmental Committee on Lands is doing in this regard. If an amount of Kshs1.5 billion has been appropriated or paid, how will we recover it? Secondly, you will appreciate that there are so many pending issues touching on land. Standing firm and making sure that certain amounts are not allocated was critical at this point. I stand here to say thank you and kudos to the Budget and Appropriations Committee for standing firm.

Hon. Kimutai, you are going ahead of the Committee. The Committee is still dealing with that matter. Hon. Onyonka, what is it? You will have to give it to the clerks. They will deal with it.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I would like to raise this issue with my colleagues in this House. Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, if possible, I would like you to make a ruling. It seems like it is a habit for chairs of committees not to be in this House.

Hon. Members, we must pay attention to the business we are transacting. You can have your discussions but let us respect the business that the House is conducting.

I do not think it is proper for Members to stand in the gangways and hold discussions. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. My colleagues in this House are not even aware. I am sure they have not even looked at what is in these Estimates and yet the job of this House is to legislate. Our major responsibility in this House is to oversee budgeting. All committee chairpersons are not in this House. It is really heart-breaking because this House is where money that will go to our counties and constituencies is allocated and yet when you look around, committee chairpersons are not here.

Hon. Onyonka, it is noted. It is proper that chairs of committees be in the House when we are allocating funds so that they can make their comments and committees’ positions known on this. It is a correct observation but let us make progress.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I want to support appropriation of funds to Vote 1121- Ministry of Information, Communication and Technology (ICT). I have a lot of interest in Sub-Vote 0210000 - ICT Infrastructure Development. You realise that under this Vote, we have allocated resources for Konza City. I want to urge the Ministry to ensure that it takes its implementation seriously this time because this is one of the cities which will open opportunities for the youths in this country. There are so many investors out there who are just waiting for the headquarters to be completed, so that they can move in and start investing. Unless this headquarters is completed, we will not gain much as a country. At the same time, once it is completed, all the ICT departments which are scattered all over the country will move to a central place, so that we can have only one centre where we can operate from. That will be very good for this country.

With those few remarks, I want to support the appropriation of resources to this Ministry. Thank you.

Hon. Members, let us look at the programmes.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. Considering that sports is very important for our youth, I would like the Chair of the Budget and Appropriations Committee to give more details about the capital figure of Kshs675,000,000 which is allocated to State Department for Sports Development. That amount seems to be too little for sports development. So, we would like to get more details about what is contained in that Kshs675,000,000.

Thank you.

Was your question directed to the Chair of the Budget and Appropriations Committee?

Yes.

Chair of the Budget and Appropriations Committee, did you get the question? As you consider it, we can have the next contribution from Hon. Rasso Ali, Member for Saku.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. As we go through this budget process, I am really worried because of the absence of the principal chairs of committees. We appear to be going through this process in vain because if you look at this particular Vote, there is a plan by the national Government to have five stadia across the nation. Some of the programmes in our counties have collapsed. They are no longer going on. We really want light to be shed on some of these important projects like what Hon. Osotsi has said. If it is about youth development, there must be more meat into this. That can only be clarified by the principal chairs, but not the Chair of the Budget and Appropriations Committee.

Thank you.

I agree with you entirely, Hon. Ali Rasso. The Chair of the Budget and Appropriations Committee.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, it is, indeed, true what Hon. Rasso has said. That question can only be answered by the chair of the relevant departmental committee. As the Chair has said, it is important for chairs of departmental committees to be present during this process, so that they can answer all the issues which are raised by the Members. However, I am privy to some information from the engagements with the Departmental Committee on Sports, Culture and Tourism that the Kshs675,000,000 that has been provided is for development of sports stadia. However, it is not enough because it is going largely to settlement of pending bills. Hon. Rasso has talked about the regional stadia. I have been informed that there are plans to set up a fund under the betting laws. The money which will The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

be raised from betting and sports lotteries will go towards the development of sports stadia and other things in the sports arena. As Hon. Rasso was saying, it is important for all chairs of committees to be in the House during this process.

We are all in agreement that chairs of the different committees should take note to be present because these are the clerks of parliamentary budget-making process. If they are not here, where else are they? Anyway, we shall make progress. We shall move to programmes under this Vote.

Hon. Ferdinard, I gave you an opportunity, but you did not take it up. So, you cannot force the Chair to give you another opportunity. I will give you another opportunity later on. Hold your horses. You will have an opportunity to contribute.

(Inaudible)

No. I gave you an opportunity but you were not available. I will give you another opportunity later on. Let us make progress.

Hon. Wanyonyi, what is out of order? You should state which Standing Order you are rising on.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, we have raised an issue and I am getting concerned about what the last Member has spoken about. On the vote and programmes, I suggest …

Hon. Wanyonyi, you said that something is out of order. Which Standing Order are you rising on?

We are passing vote programmes …

Which Standing Order are you standing on?

Vote 1132 has been passed. I suggest that for the other votes we are going to debate, if the chairpersons of the committees are not here, we should skip them until they are here. We cannot ….

Hon. Wanyonyi, you are out of order, Hon. Wanyonyi. That is not in our Standing Orders. It is desirable that the chairpersons should be in the House, but if they are not here, the House cannot be hobbled by their absence. It can only be noted and the relevant Committees and leadership cadres will take the necessary action. But, the House cannot be hobbled in its progress.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I also want to support allocation to this Ministry. As I do that, when we were listening to the Budget, we realised that there is something called Ushanga Initiative which seems to be the new kid on the block. This being a very good initiative, I wish the Chairman were here to provide more information to Members. I appeal that as it is implemented, fair consideration is made to all parts of the country to benefit from it. Members can consult the Chair of the Committee to get more details. What Hon. Wanyonyi was saying makes a lot of sense. When we are discussing very important matters of this nation, when we do not have the chair and the deputy of the Committee, it becomes a disservice to Hon. Members. It is not the Chair of the Budget and Appropriations Committee who should be giving us these details. I support.

Hon. Makali Mulu, what you are raising is important. Do I see Hon. Lemein?

Let Hon. Lemein explain to us the Ushanga Initiative which is of interest to us. I appeal to him to make sure that the Department ….

Hon. Lemein Korei.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. Before, I contribute to the same, my friend Hon. Makali Mulu is ahead of what is in the Order Paper. However, the

Initiative is a new programme designed to transform the lives of pastoralist communities. That is why the money was allocated so that as we move forward, the pastoralist communities, in as much as they are seized in tourism matters, have to benefit from that Vote. That is my submission.

My interest was on Heritage, but I was skipped. The Chairman wants to say something on this. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

We shall have Hon. Lodepe who seems to be agitated about something.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. First of all, on the issue of power generation, we would like the Committee to take into consideration that every divisional headquarters must have a sub-division plant so that we can have development in every area. Secondly, in Turkana we have the sun as an alternative energy source. We want the Committee to see how we can tap that energy instead of generators that cost us a lot of money in Turkana. That is a challenge I want the Chairman to consider. Thank you.

Hon. Ibrahim Abdisalan, do you have something to say to this?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, mine was about the Ushanga Initiative which is said to cover pastoralist areas. I wanted the Member to shed more light on this because pastoral areas are widely spread.

Hon. Abdisalan, the horse has fled. The stable doors are closed on that one. You may have an opportunity to inquire more from the Committee. Hon. Lentoimaga.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. My concern is about transmission. The Ministry of Energy has been discouraging. For the last four years, they have been telling us to submit recommendations and a list of where transmission can be done, but it is all in vain. I hope the money we are allocating the Ministry will be used to assist us to get new transmission of power in places like Samburu North and even in Maralal, where there is a blackout every week. The money should be used properly to ensure that we get supply of power in all parts of our country.

I saw Hon. Gikaria in the morning, the Chairman of the Committee. I do not know if he is in the House so that he can note the concern of Members. Hon. Jomo, the Chief Whip, do you have something to say to that?

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I hear the complaints of Members. It is correct that the chairs must be in the House. You will understand that this is a new exercise that the chairs did not anticipate. I encourage the vice-chairs and also Members of these committees to be abreast with what is happening so that we do not rely on chairs only. Meanwhile, we have already passed a message to the chairs. I am sure in a few minutes, they will be coming in.

I am glad that you have taken that action, Hon. Washiali. Hon. Limo, Member for Kipkelion East.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, for giving me this opportunity to say something about energy. Energy is a very important ingredient in this country especially for industrialisation and lighting of homes. Energy is very important to the extent that it is the one which will determine whether investors will come to this country or not. So, to enhance our generation capacity, transmission capacity and connectivity, this House should support any increment and ensure we play a key role in identifying those particular areas for connectivity. I attended a World Bank meeting which Kenya featured as one of the best in terms of connectivity effort from 2010 till now. It was a showcase for the whole world to see that it is possible to transmit power to areas which are sparsely populated. In many countries especially The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

the developed world, even if they boast that connectivity is 90 per cent or 100 per cent, their people are living in towns. In Kenya, we have challenges where our people live in villages. Therefore, we must enhance the capacity of the Ministry of Energy to distribute energy to our people. This is a very important vote. I support.

Your contributions are noted. I see a lot of interest in this vote. I will give two or three Members one minute each so that they can have their say. We will start with Hon. Wangwe followed by Hon. Kanini.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I will take a minute as you instructed. As much as we are giving more money for power generation, I would equally expect that the Ministry translates this money to produce more power to reduce the cost. Let us not give more money to them and yet we are not getting reciprocation in terms of cost reduction. Let the cost come down and let Kenyans enjoy as a result of what we have given them. Thank you.

Hon. Kanini.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. This is a very important Vote because energy is an enabler of the Big Four Agenda. Since Kenya became a Republic, we have only been able to generate about 2700 megawatts of power whereas countries like South Africa have generated 45,000 megawatts. So, in terms of competitiveness, we have investors going to other countries. We want cheap power. We are getting our power in industrial area at about US$16. I arrived today morning from Ethiopia. In Ethiopia, they are offering their industries power at US$3. We cannot compete. We cannot have investors coming to Kenya if our power is still expensive. We want to have more money injected to this to get cheaper power. Thank you.

Your contributions are noted because you are the Chair for Departmental Committee on Trade. You must be speaking for the industrialisation sector. I will now give the final voice on this to Hon. Nyaga Nkatha so that we can have some gender balance.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, for the opportunity. I support giving energy more funds so that they are able to serve Kenyans. At the same time, we need to ask them to give us quality service. You realise that in some areas, they are putting up transformers which do not work well when there is a lot of wind or rain.They go off frequently. We support but they should give us quality service. Thank you.

Hon. Kiti Chonga.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I happen to sit in the Departmental Committee on Energy. I beg to support what my Chair, Hon. Kanini, is saying. Indeed if we are in line with the Big Four Agenda which is supposed to be achieved, energy is a very crucial factor in it. Industrialisation, for instance, is not a question of the big towns; we need to get it even in the rural areas. We need to electrify even the rural areas so that we can bring up young industries to help us achieve the dream of this country. As much as I support the amount that has been allocated to this, I still feel that it is far below what is required. Should there be any monies that have been budgeted for by the relevant ministries, it is important that the National Treasury adopts it. I support this allocation. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Chachu Ganya, the Departmental Committee on Energy should take note that there is a lot of interest in this matter. I will give Hon. Chachu chance and then we can make progress.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. Energy is the enabler of the four pillars. There is a problem in this country. In my county, the Turkana Wind Power Project which is producing sourced clean energy from wind was completed a year ago. Just because we cannot evacuate that power out of Marasabit County, we are not able to utilise that energy. There is hardly any provision even now to enable us to evacuate that power and add it to our national grid. It is so important for us to complete what we have started. I want the Departmental Committee on Energy to inform this House of what they are doing about that plant which is the largest in Africa producing over 250 megawatts of clean energy which cannot be evacuated because transmission line could not be built because of procurement issues. The Spanish company that was awarded the tender happened to be bankrupt and now the Chinese have been given yet we cannot see any results. There are some hard issues in terms of energy that need to be answered. This House cannot just pass budgets in vain. Thank you.

Hon. Members, there is a lot of interest in this. All we are speaking to is the need for efficiency in this department. In order for us to make progress considering the amount of work we still have a head of us, I direct that we move to the programmes under the vote.

There is a proposed amendment here. Mover?

I beg to move: THAT, the proposed allocation under the Programme in respect of Development Estimates, the figure Ksh.52,284,172,712 be deleted and substituted thereof with the figure of Kshs.50,784,172,712. As Members have noted, the energy sector is one of the key drivers of one of the pillars of the Big Four Agenda which is manufacturing. What the amendment seeks to do is reduce additional money that had been allocated. We had allocated an additional Kshs4 billion towards compensation of land. Upon rationalisation of our budget figures with the Ministry of Energy and Petroleum, and in consultation with the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Energy, it was realised we may not need all that money at ago. Therefore, we reduced the additional allocation. That still leaves us with a figure of Kshs39 billion under the Development Vote. It will be left towards transmission of power. I can guarantee that we have adequate resources to roll out the projects. This has been given top priority by the Government, being one of the Big Four Agenda under manufacturing. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I will allow two people to speak because there is a lot of interest in this matter. We shall start off with Hon. Oyula Maero, Member for Butula.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. Let me take this opportunity to thank the Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee (BAC) for a good work done. Budget-making is not an easy exercise. As it has been voiced, the energy sector needs to be strengthened. A lot of money should be given, particularly to the rural sector to ensure that all the villages are supplied with energy. We should also ensure that the industries are scattered all over the counties. To be able to do this, we need enough energy in the rural areas. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

Hon. Kositany.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

( Off-record).

Hon. Dawood, you have just come in. Hon. Kositany has been here the whole morning.

What am I supporting? Anyway, thank you Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. The Chairman of the BAC is requesting for support. This is a very important process. We want to support the Departmental Committee on Energy. They have done a good job. Not only the Departmental Committee on Energy but also the BAC.

As we have raised serious concerns, energy is a key thing; it is a key enabler. Anywhere we go in our constituencies, one of the key issues we are told is: “ Mheshimiwa, I do not have power.” It is important we give them this money and hope it will be utilised for the good of the citizens. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

Hon. Mugambi Gichuki.

Thank you a lot, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. It is true that this is one ministry that is very supportive to the Big Four Agenda. We require to build capacity for power generation. But, it is also very important that we have proper monitoring and regulation because we know that there are a few issues, especially with even some big manufacturers. It is because of the very high cost of power. Some have resorted to stealing power. In the steel industry, there are lots of complaints because some people are stealing power and edging others out of business because of malpractices. We request the regulators to intervene and make sure that there is a level playing ground by all users of power in big industries. We also need to support rural electrification. We will want to see a lot of money going to rural electrification. We should also ensure the transformers being procured can stand the test of times. It is because we know that many of them are not meeting the standards. They are operating and are out of use within a very short time. We also know a lot of those….

Hon. Gichuki, it is just one minute per Member. I know you may have a lot to say on this.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I just want to say that those people who have been given the job of electricity connections in the rural areas should be monitored because a lot of them fail. The other day we had transformers connected in my The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

constituency but they were stolen within a few weeks. We suspect it is the same people who are stealing. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

Hon. Members, there is a lot of interest. I will allow Hon. Dawood to see whatever is burning him. Just one minute, it is okay.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, the Chairman of the BAC should hold his horses. I would not want to agree with him to reduce the Kshs1.5 billion for land compensation. He said we had given Kshs4 billion but land compensation should not affect Meru County because we are going to have Kenya Electricity Generation Company (KenGen) coming in. We need that compensation to be paid. If it is going to be removed, let it be taken to where we are going to have transformers and other things. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

Hon. Wangwe, what is it?

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. Whereas I appreciate the Chairman of the BAC on the reduction of what he has said, I want him to explain to us: as he is reducing from around Kshs52 billion to around Kshs50 billion, where is he reallocating the difference?

It is a valid enquiry. Chairman for the BAC, respond so that we can make progress.

As I indicated, I hope Hon. Wangwe was listening, what we are reducing was an additional allocation. In fact, if you look at the Estimates table, the amount was much lower than the Kshs50.2 billion shillings that is there. So, we had allocated an additional Kshs4.5 billion towards compensation of land. You will remember, in the course of this week, there has been talk of Kenya Electricity Transmission Company (KETRACO) losing at least Kshs6.3 billion, if you were to believe what was reported in the media.

Hon. Dawood is interrupting me after he has spoken.

I can hear him interrupting him now that he has spoken.

He is conversing and interrupting me in vernacular. I do not understand Kimeru and they are conversing in Kimeru with the other Hon. Member. I was saying the reduction….

Hon. Dawood, allow the Chairman to be heard.

Yes. The reduction relates just to the aspect of land compensation. The Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Energy is in the House, like the other very able chairs. He can confirm that there is adequate money to ensure that the powerlines, especially the Loyangalani to Suswa line, are complete. Why we are allocating more money to this endeavour is to make sure all those lines are completed to power our manufacturing item in the Big Four Agenda. As Hon. Kanini said, we cannot get cheaper power in our power bills if we are not able to transmit that power from Loiyangalani, the Turkana wind power to Suswa. That is why we had added that money. However, there are adequate resources and the Chair is here to confirm. There can never be enough. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I think you have now made your point.

I see interest from Hon. Bowen Kangogo.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I want to support this amendment because some of us come from pastoralist community and we want this money to get to this department so that it can help the pastoralists. The Departmental Committee on Agriculture and Livestock needs to look at the Kenya Meat Commission (KMC). It is a government parastatal which is dying and that is where many pastoralists are supposed to benefit from their animals. Why should we have people supplying meat from outside to the police, colleges and even NYS when we have KMC? We hope that a big portion of it will go to rehabilitation and modernisation of KMC so that pastoralists can benefit.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairperson. Livestock farming contributes more than four per cent to the GDP of this country; hence, it requires special attention. Many Kenyans are dependent on livestock and livestock product for their living hence the need to give the sector a special consideration. We are fully aware that this sector is facing a lot of challenges due to the nomadic way of life of the pastoralists. There is the aspect of disease outbreak and harsh climatic conditions that are leading to high mortality rate of livestock. As such, there is need to give special consideration to KMC, as raised by my colleague. This is one industry that the pastoralists in this country would want revived. I have no doubt that this was raised on numerous occasions and it is my belief that good allocation of this amount is meant to revive KMC.

Let us have Hon. Tobiko Pesi, Member for Kajiado West.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. Whereas I support the allocation of the stated amount for the State Department of Livestock, let me just state that during droughts, the pastoralists are left on their own. They suffer and there is no compensation and insurance for their livestock. We need to feel this department more. Otherwise, the pastoralists feel like they are in a world of their own.

Hon. Chachu Ganya

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. This is one sector that has been historically underfunded, mismanaged and deliberately undermined by all the Governments The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

we have had since the colonial period. If Ethiopians, Somalis and the people of Djibouti are able to do it, why are we not able to do this as a country? Livestock farmers have never been supported by this nation and that is why the only State corporation that is meant to support livestock is in dire situation. There was a time Governor Kuti was the Cabinet Secretary for Livestock and Hon. Aden Duale, the Leader of the Majority Party, the Assistant Minister. Even then, it was in dire situation. It is so unfortunate and I do not know who to blame. It is time we financed this sector if livestock is going to contribute to the development of this nation. I beg the Budget and Appropriations Committee to work closely by bringing the policy framework so that even as the county governments work on this devolved function of this sector, they are able to contribute significantly to the GDP of this nation. It is doable, Botswana is doing it, Djibouti is doing it, Ethiopia is doing it, we can also do it here in Kenya.

I will call out the programmes under the vote.

Hon. Osotsi, what is out of order?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, we would like to have more information about crop development and management from the Vice-Chair. We would like to know out of this how much has been allocated to the sugar industry considering we are having a lot of challenges in the sugar industry.

We shall have the Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Osotsi has asked a very good question but to the wrong person. The books are on the table. If he looks at the Vote of the Ministry of Agriculture, crop production section, he will easily know how much has been allocated to the sugar sector. He should not be lazy, he is a very active Member.

It is true Members, all the information that you are seeking about the specific items under these votes are right on the table and are available to you. These books are here in the House; they are with you, so it is your duty to look at them and interrogate them. Hon. Lentoimaga, before I put the Question. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. Look at this allocation for crop development. As pastoralists and livestock keepers, which is the mainstay of our economy in the pastoralist community, we are not disputing or complaining about the allocation or implementation of the livestock economy. If you compare crop development with livestock development, they are distinct. Even their actual allocation of resources tells you that there is negligence in terms of the livestock economy: Kshs6 billion versus Kshs25 billion. The Kenya Government has never recognised that there is need to assist livestock keepers in disease control, marketing, and improving the industry. KMC is dead; it is actually being sold. But we do not have an alternative to KMC. So as we implement this particular budget, I am not saying that we cannot approve this money, but I am saying let us relook at the issue of livestock economy. Thank you.

Hon. Shinali.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I stand to support the appropriation of monies to livestock development. You realise that this is an agricultural country and food security is very important. A country without food is a country in problems. I want to urge the Government, on this note, to increase monies for training farmers, posting more officers to agricultural areas so that we realise food security and stop importation. We have just had problems with maize being imported yet this crop can be grown in Kenya. We have enough land and we can actually do it. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

Hon. Leonard Brighton, the Member for Konoin.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. You realise that food security and nutrition is a very important and fundamental aspect. Agriculture is among the Big Four pillars that the President and his deputy put forward as matters of priority going forward. Kenya is a signatory to the Maputo Declaration and when I look at the allocation given to agriculture, which is Kshs55 billion or thereabouts, it is hardly 2 per cent of the entire Budget. Going forward, we shall insist that we put in necessary resources in agriculture so that we can…

Hon. Members, I think we have a challenge with the system. It has hung, but we will make progress.

There is no proposed amendment to this, but I see interest from Hon. Nyikal.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I support this vote, but what I would like to add is, as you go through the programmes you will see that they have Kshs1.4 billion for development. What I would like to urge is that the fisheries department should take a keen interest in working with the counties to develop fisheries infrastructure because like in my constituency, in Lake Victoria, people are still fishing the old ways and people are moving commercially to aquaculture. That is why we are having a lot of importation of fish coming from other countries, particularly China. We need to develop this area. I know that the monies that the counties put will not be adequate, so there is need to enhance this in future so that we look at development and support the counties particularly around Lake Victoria. Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I support.

Hon. Wanyonyi, Member for Kwanza.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I also want to support this. But overall, I think this particular sector of fisheries and aquaculture is underfunded. We will be coming up with a supplementary request to be able to see whether we can raise this because this sector largely provides employment, mainly to the youth.

As mentioned by a Member, we do not have to import fish from China; we can still have our own fish here. Therefore, in the next financial year we will be coming to this House to request for additional funding, both for the fisheries department and crop development. I support though. Thank you.

Yes. Hon. Member for Bondo.

Thanks a lot. I want to declare to the House that I am a fisherman, if that has not been known. I am a fisherman and it is really core to me. With regard to the whole issue of funding in the fisheries, one needs to look at this sector in relation to the geography and the communities that we are talking about and also in relation to the agenda of the Government. What is it that can promote the economy of these places where we come from, particularly around Lake Victoria? For the last two weeks we have had issues with the “Waganda” throughout in terms of resource use of Lake Victoria. So, in terms of fisheries development, we need to go the direction of what it is that we can do acknowledging that we have a very small portion of Lake Victoria as part of this country. We should find a way of reducing the conflict we constantly have with the Ugandans. We have only six per cent of the lake. What is it, in terms of fisheries development, that we can do, or what is it that we need to come up with that can help us utilise the small portion of Lake Victoria that we have for the purposes and benefit of our communities? We need some good amount of creativity in terms of methods that we are to employ for this to happen. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Lastly, there have been attempts before to do fish processing, auction centers, cooling plants, but a lot of it has stalled. None of those things is working since the Government embarked on them in the 1970s. It stalled in Turkana and it has been stalling in Lake Victoria. In my constituency, there have been three fisheries development attempts but all are stalled. In my view, for purposes of fisheries development, we need to put more money or the existing funds towards rehabilitating and re-utilising some of these areas. For purposes of information, again, it is this department that up to now does not have a Principal Secretary. It just shows exactly how the Government is putting very little energy towards the fisheries department. Thank you.

Good, should we have Hon. Mohamed then we make some progress.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I support the budget allocation for the State Department for Fisheries Aquaculture and the blue economy because it is important, as a country, to grow the blue economy. Indeed, we have got one of the longest coastlines and one of the best parts of Lake Victoria. Therefore, encouraging this kind of department to have more resources is very important. Also, when the department is given such funding, they should consider to expand fish farming and even engage Arid and Semi-Arid Lands (ASAL) communities. So, that fund that we are giving to them should not necessarily focus on the current areas where that particular economic activity falls. Thank you and I support this allocation.

Let us have Hon. Nyenze for one minute.

Thank you. I support the budget for the State Department for Fisheries Agriculture and Blue Economy. I have a point to raise on fish ponds which we have started all over the country, especially in my county of Kitui which is semi-arid. They started so many fish ponds some time ago which were just wasted. People lack basic education on fish farming. So, as we allocate the money, I would urge the Ministry concerned to educate people on how to do fish farming. This is because the people heavily invested in this but all has gone to waste. I support.

Very well, we should move on from there. Hon. Chelule, you were next and you are away from your seat.

Ahsante sana, Mheshimiwa Naibu Mwenyekiti wa Muda kwa kunipa hii nafasi kuchangia mjadala wa mambo ya hesabu kuhusu ukulima wa samaki. Nimefurahia na nitafurahia ikipitishwa. Ingawa hivyo, pesa ambayo imepewa ukulima wa samaki ni kidogo sana. Hivyo nataka kusema kama Mbunge kwamba tutakapo tekeleza tena hesabu za mwaka ujao tuongeze pesa za kilimo cha samaki. Ninasema hivi kwa sababu ukulima wa samaki katika vidimbwi vya samaki umesaidia vijana na akina mama. Tunataka kujihusisha kama akina mama kwa mambo ya samaki. Kwa hivyo pesa ambayo imetengwa ni kidogo. Tukishughulikia masuala ya ukulima wa samaki baadaye, sharti tutenge pesa nyingi. Hii ni kwa sababu tutataka kujihusisha kama akina mama pamoja na vijana wetu. Ahsante sana.

Let us get to the programmes now.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Let us have Hon. Wandayi.

I do not know if we are commenting now but I will say a few things. I support this in the sense that Kenya, being a country that relies heavily on agriculture for its economic development, must make practical steps to enhance irrigation. This is because, for the country to continue relying on rain and praying to God that rains can come on time and in adequate amounts for the country to grow food both for consumption and exports is to live in the past. This is an initiative that must be supported. However, even as I support it, the previous management of the National Irrigation Board had serious problems. I say this because in the last Parliament I was in the Departmental Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Cooperatives. I am happy to note that since the change of guard there has been a lot of improvement in that department both in the National Irrigation Board and the State Department of Irrigation. This is something we should support as Members so that we can enhance not only food security but also capacity to export the surplus.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

Shall we have Hon. Gichimu.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. Agriculture is the key to food security in this country. It is one of the drivers of the Big Four priority areas of this Government. I want to urge the Ministry of Agriculture to allocate irrigation more funds going forward than the amount allocated to water storage and flood control. We know irrigation is an area which ensures there is enough food in this country. I hope the Kshs.10 billion allocated for water storage and flood control will be utilised in the hilly areas like Kirinyaga because we have many gullies and floods occur in the lower areas. We would like to see the Government do a lot to control flood waters and create temporary dams for irrigation.

I support the Vote but in future I wish irrigation would be allocated more money and less to water storage and flood control. Thank you.

Hon. Washiali, You have the Floor but your neighbour looks very jealous. Have a minute so that we can make progress.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I will be brief. Just like my colleagues have said, as a country we need to go the irrigation way. As we approve these amounts I want to urge this state department to relook at Galana Kulalu Project because this was a very noble idea. It was developed wrongly and has caused the Government huge losses. This department needs to go back and see what went wrong. It was meant to solve the food shortage problems and give this country food security.

Thank you.

Yes, I will keep my promise, Hon. Wangwe Emmanuel. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I want to urge my colleagues to approve this allocation. However, I have a rider which I want to seek through the Leader of the Majority Party. We passed the Irrigation Bill which is very good thing. I want to ask him to push the Executive to make sure that these funds are implemented through the new Bill and not as per the old one.

Thank you.

Yes, the Leader of the Majority Party.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. The Irrigation Bill is in the Senate and once it is concluded… I know they usually take between six months to one year to conclude a Bill and I hope they are watching me. If they finish…In as far as irrigation is concerned in Kenya, this is a big joke. We have big rivers in this country and a lot of flooding. We need to build big dams and use irrigation for food security. The State Department for Irrigation cannot account for Kshs.17 billion. We have been told about Galana Kulalu Irrigation Scheme which would produce 1 million bags. How much have they produced? Nothing! For the amount of money we have put in Galana Kulalu the value is not equitable to the bags produced.

Last month, we were victims of flooding and even a simple technology of haversting water is an issue in this country. We are talking about giving a lot of money and holding a blue economy conference in November yet, we are allocating less than Kshs.3 billion to the fishing industry. I mean we are not serious. The Executive must up its game and we must invest and get value. I am happy today because the Chair of Public Accounts Committee is seated here. We will need quarterly reports from the State Departments which committees oversee to know how much money has been spent. Unless we use these drastic measures we will not get value from this Budget. As the Vice-Chair has asked, I will fast-track the Bill which is in the Senate. You know they have a different Leader of the Majority Party. I am only the Leader of the Majority Party for the National Assembly and the only one found in the Constitution. In fact, in other jurisdictions, the Leader of the Majority Party for the Assembly is in-charge of all the other leaders of majority party in Parliament. Also the Leader of the Minority Party in the Assembly is in-charge of all other leaders of minority party around. You know this is Kenya and people do not want to follow the Constitution. There is abuse of the rule of law.

Let us have two more Members. Hon. Nguna.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman for giving me an opportunity. I stand to support the appropriation to the State Department for Irrigation. One key issue we should discuss is utilisation of land through irrigation. I think we passed a very important Motion about this here in Parliament. One of the key authorities in this State Department is TARDA. I would like to laud them for what they have done in my constituency, although, they have been allocated little money. I want to request them to focus more on ground water instead of boreholes. We know the impact caused by boreholes they drill in many constituencies.

Thank you.

Yes, Member for Kigumo.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I rise to support the Vote to the State Department for Irrigation of a sum of Kshs. 17 billion. Kenya has for the longest time relied on rain-fed agriculture and we cannot continue cheating ourselves because we The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

want to industrialise. At the moment our economy is heavily reliant on agriculture and it is impossible for this country to develop until we develop our agriculture sector.

In the Eighth Report of the World Bank on the Kenyan Economy, they stated that Kenya cannot grow in double digits until we fix agriculture. We all know that irrigation is supposed to supplement the efforts of the Jubilee administration in as far as the four main pillars of the economy are concerned and mainly food security. I rise to support because this is a department that can transform our economy and also create jobs in the rural areas. A lot of our people have been frustrated because as much as they want to farm they cannot do so even if the land is productive and fertile because of lack of rains. With the support of the State Department for Irrigation we will expand the space for growing our commodities and even those for export. So, I support this and also want to say that the agents that are currently helping us in this area, particularly the National Irrigation Board and the Tana River Development Authority, should be much more proactive than we saw last time. A lot of rain water is just getting lost and you just look at it and wish that measures had been done earlier to encourage water harvesting. I believe the Ministry is up to task and they are going to support us in this issue of rain water harvesting. I rise to support.

Thank you very much. We must clearly make some progress. We need to call out the programmes.

There are no amendments proposed and so, let us go straight to the programmes.

THAT, a sum not exceeding Kshs. 5,561,772,154 be issued from the Consolidated Fund to complete the sum necessary to meet the expenditure (Recurrent & Development) during the year ending 30th June, 2019 in respect of Vote 1168 (State Department for Agricultural Research).

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

What is it, Leader of the Majority Party?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, you know I moved a Procedural Motion on how the Committee of Supply will be conducted and that Motion was adopted and that in every vote, we have 30 minutes if the House wants to discuss. In the event there is nobody who is ready to speak to that vote, then you can rush putting the Question. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, you know, I wanted to comment that part of this money must be used in doing research for camels and its diseases. Hon. Kanini Kega wanted to speak about coffee and if there is any research for that. Now we have agreed with you, but moving forward, give those who want to speak an opportunity.

Order, Hon. Wandayi. The point by the Leader of the Majority Party is very valid. Those who want to speak to any vote, please register your interest. The Chair will give you an opportunity for a maximum of 30 minutes and I will use the discretion to give you a minute or two so that we may have as many as possible. The House is well guided. Let us get to the next vote.

Hon. Members, you have a maximum of 30 minutes on this one. Yes, Hon. Milemba, you have the Floor. I also see my right. Do not worry.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. Let me also thank the Leader of the Majority Party for what he has guided the House on because yesterday, we really suffered. Members want to contribute to those issues and we are being hurried and yet, we had put 30 minutes for each and every vote. So, thank you Leader of the Majority Party for that direction. I support this allocation to the co-operatives but as this happens, I want to say that the co- operative world has really increased in terms of vibrancy and the numbers. Those co-operatives were actually divided into different sections. Some were agricultural and some were deposit- based. I would urge that particular Ministry to use this money appropriately to make sure that they bring up a clear distinction between the new co-operatives being formed, especially in the transport sector as matatus, and the deposit-based and the agricultural ones so that when we are dealing with one line of co-operatives, it does not seem that this particular line, for instance, if it is coming from the transport sector, is being generalised as being the entire co-operative sector. I think the money they have been given, especially for training and management should be used well in that particular direction. There are certain changes that the Government may be introducing soon, which I think, again, the co-operatives need to be protected as member societies and member clubs so that we do not bring foreigners into co-operatives to manage their affairs as nominees who are not members and are not contributors. Let the co-operative societies be managed and monitored by the Ministry using this budgetary allocation very well. However, there would be no need of bringing nominees that are not necessarily members of those particular co-operative societies. I beg to support but those are some of the areas that they would really need to put their money in order to develop the co-operatives. Finally, there is an area that is untapped. Let this money be used to mobilise the youths who are small-scale farmers and who are involved in the The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

small-scale earnings in the transport sector like boda boda riders . They have a lot of capacity for co-operatives, but they have not been harnessed so that they can form co-operatives that will actually help them and engineer this economy moving forward. We are over-relying on the deposit based co-operatives that are old and yet, the market for employment is reducing. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

Hon. Kanini Kega.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I totally support. Of course, most of this money which is going to the State Department of Co-operatives is recurrent but, fundamentally, we also have some money that is going to the Sacco Societies Regulatory Authority (SASRA), which is the authority that regulates the co-operatives. Most of the Members here can attest to the fact that they, somehow, benefited from the co-operative societies that were there during those days. You remember that there was a number that you would take to your secondary school and the headmaster would admit you because they knew that, that number belongs to a co-operative society and they knew for sure that, that money would be paid. What happened? Most of the co-operatives are on their deathbeds because they are not being regulated. Take for example, the concerns given by Hon. Milemba. There are some miscellaneous amendments that have been proposed. I want to assure you that even before they are tabled before the House, we will reject all of them when that time comes. We said that we need more consultations. We have taken that into consideration. About Kshs500 million will go towards the Strategic Reserve. In Kenya, whenever we talk about the Strategic Reserve, we only talk about maize. There are other food items that we can keep as reserves. We have given Kshs500 million to the Kenya Co-operative Creameries (KCC) to store milk in powder form. This is a huge support but we need to give more money to SASRA. Most of the SACCOS and co-operative societies are going down because of mismanagement. We will give more resources in future to SASRA so that all those institutions are kept in check. We need to restore the lost glory that co-operatives had when we were growing up.

Let us have Hon. Mutua Mwikali, Member for Busia. When you have a chance to speak, just take a minute so that a few more Members can have the opportunity to speak.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I put in my card a while back. I am a Member of the Departmental Committee on Agriculture and Livestock. I have a few contributions to make to Votes 1162, 1165, 1164, 1167 and 1168.

Order Member! Shall I guide you? The Motion that the Leader of the Majority Party referred to a few minutes ago also stated that the debate shall be restricted to the Vote in question. The Vote currently being considered is Vote 1173 – State Department for Cooperatives. You have the Floor.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I really want to speak about the Vote for the State Department for Agricultural Research even if it has passed.

Sorry?

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Okay then. Let me speak about co-operatives only, although I put my card in a long time ago. I had a lot of contributions to make and my card did not catch your eye. I support the Vote-Head for co-operatives because the world right now revolves around co-operatives. I am a very strong supporter of co-operatives. Even in the counties, we work very closely with co-operatives to ensure that the youth, women and people living with disabilities are members of co-operatives. We even channel the money that we get as affirmative action through co-operatives. We are very happy that the Ministry is being supported with more funding. I also want to recognise co-operatives are getting a key vote in this Budget. Let me just support this Vote because that was not my main contribution.

Very well. I saw you having registered interest. That is clear. We will not have everyone speaking to every vote. We shall have different Members speaking to different votes as they have registered interest. Let us have Hon. Cheptumo.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I also want to support the Vote for the State Department for Cooperatives. This sector is very important. If you look at the development in our rural areas, most of what is done by the various co-operative societies helps to support development. For example, the teachers’ co-operative supports their development. Even in this House, Bunge SACCO - which Members substantially contribute to - has assisted them. My proposal is to encourage the Chair handling this department that we need to increase the vote for this Department. The allocation of Kshs1.3 billion for a sector which controls a big portion of our economy is minimal. In future, I encourage that we enhance this figure so that those responsible for training and supervising our co-operatives will have enough resources to do so. The State Department for Co-operatives is responsible for ensuring that the regulations, procedures and laws governing the sector are complied with. Today, there are various co- operatives that have collapsed because the officials of those SACCOS have enriched themselves and denied the membership the benefit of their contributions. The whole sector should be addressed so that there are penalties for those committing those illegal actions and the members of those SACCOS should benefit from their contributions. My appeal is that in future, we should enhance the allocation to this sector because it plays an important role in our economy, in addition to the banking sector.

I will give an opportunity to one or two other members. Let us have Hon. Mutunga.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this important Motion. This country has many people locked up in systems that do not function. The only way we can have majority of Kenyans who are small business holders or small-scale farmers is by putting them together. The only way we can put them together is by having very strong co-operatives. By allocating money to the programmes in this sector, we will be doing the right thing for Kenyans because we need to make sure that the co-operatives that already exist in Kenya, are operating and functioning well and that the programmes within the co-operatives are also functioning very well. One of the key functions that need to work very well is ensuring that we have consolidation of the raw materials, especially in agriculture so that, we can support the Big Four Agenda. To support the Big Four Agenda, we must be raw material-oriented. There are institutions in this country which have already been established, such as processing units and The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

import raw materials. The best way to amass our raw materials is through aggregation. Aggregation can only be done through the co-operative movement because our producers are small-holder. Giving money to this particular function is a move in the right direction because we shall consolidate and ensure that we have volumes which may guarantee investment. This will encourage the processing or the industrialisation part of the Big Four Agenda. On the other hand, we can also distribute input through the co-operatives and that can be done as a function of the co-operatives as one of the programmes. Today, fertilisers are distributed through the National Cereals and Produce Board (NCPB). If there were co-operatives that could be linked up to the NCPB, it would be easier and cheaper for farmers to acquire those fertilisers. Therefore, it would be easier and cheaper for them to increase production without incurring a lot of costs in transportation and management of those products. That is why having working programmes within the co-operative movement will be useful to enable our people to grow and eliminate poverty.

I thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

Hon. Wanyonyi, Member for Kwanza.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, you have seen my request after complaining.

Order, Member! You have the Floor now.

I want to support this Vote. First and foremost, as somebody mentioned, the State Department for Cooperatives needs to be enhanced.

Two, at one time, we had a full Ministry which used to look after the co-operatives. That is when we had co-operatives in this country. This House should also look at the possibility of having a separate Ministry to look after the co-operative movement in this country. That is because it is very important in the rural areas. We are now looking at distribution and buying centres for cereals. We are reorganising ourselves, particularly in my constituency. I am reorganising, so that we can have the co-operative movement in every location and sub-location to channel maize, other cereals and also distribution of fertiliser in those areas.

The major problem and challenge in co-operatives today is mismanagement. I agree with the Leader of the Majority Party that we should fast-track the money that we have given to the Ministry and the sector to see whether there is any change or not. At the same time, we want that money to be used for training the people who manage this sector. There are cases where a chairman or treasurer is not even learned and he uses his thumb to withdraw some money. So, we want this money to be used for training of the youths and management of those co-operatives to make them a bit viable. Therefore, I am suggesting that in future, we should ask the Government to have a full-fledged Ministry to look after this particular sector.

I support the Vote.

We must make some movement. So, I will give the opportunity to just two Members. Hon. Muli Fabian.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, for giving me this chance to support the State Department for Cooperatives. I rise to support it. Co-operatives play a key role in this country. Hon. Members need to rise and save the co-operative societies.

I would like to put to your notice that our co-operative societies make our citizens suffer. Our farmers are crying in all the co-operative societies today. All the cartels, especially in the coffee industry, have taken everything from our farmers through the co-operative societies. The The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

land grabbers are forming co-operatives and they grab people’s land. So, the State Department for Co-operatives needs to move and check on the system which is used to register co-operative societies. Some of them are not registered in good faith or for the activities which they intend to carry out.

As we approve their Budget, we need to see proper policies which are restructured in line with the Constitution 2010. That is because they are using very old policies which are not there. The co-operative societies lack strategic plans because they are not under a full-fledged Ministry. This Department needs to give us a strategic plan or development of co-operative societies. Some of them are operating on debts and borrowing bank loans using the security deposit of the farmers.

There is the issue of micro-management in this State Department for Cooperatives. The major shareholder is the one who manages the co-operative society, while the small shareholders who are the growing youth are nowhere to be seen. I support their Budget but we need to see a lot of activities from the State Department in terms of helping the co-operative societies to revamp.

Thank you.

We shall have the final person to contribute on this Vote. Hon. Mukami. Give her the microphone.

Sorry for that. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I rise to support the co-operative societies. As we all know, all of us are where we are today because of co-operative societies. I am a Member of the Departmental Committee on Trade, Industry and Cooperatives. We have issues with SACCOs because there are so many cartels which want to take advantage of the young entrepreneurs. Most of the people who are in SACCOs are the young businesspeople who are trying to build their lives. I want to urge the management of SACCOs to go on the ground and conduct civic education and training to the SACCO members, so that people will not take advantage of them.

I support the Vote.

Order Members, are the energies going down? I will put the Question again.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I rise to support this Vote. The President has put the manufacturing unit as part of the Big Four Agenda, which is good. My constituency is a rural one, but it is very rich in agriculture, minerals and livestock. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

How I wish that we can devolve industries to the rural areas to create jobs for young people and also to be big manufacturing units.

I want to support this Vote wholly because, if this money is appropriated, the benefits are so many. For example, we will create jobs in the rural areas and reduce rural-urban migration. People come to urban centres and Nairobi to look for jobs. If only we can do more with this budget which is about Kshs6 billion and increase it to create more opportunities for young people in the rural setting, they will not come to the urban centres. We will decongest the cities.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I support this Vote. I hope Ndhiwa Constituency will also benefit from this allocation.

Thank you, Hon. Member. You have been brief and to the point. It saves a few minutes for more Members.

Hon. Gitau.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I rise to support the Vote. There is a reduction of money for industrialisation from Kshs10 billion to Kshs6 billion and yet, this is one of the pillars of the Big Four Agenda. Why do we have to reduce the money from Kshs10 billion to Kshs6 billion and yet, we want to achieve the Big Four Agenda? We need to add value to the food crops we grow and start industries everywhere in the country. Our youth are unemployed and so, we need to create employment for them through creation of industries.

I do not know how the Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee got to reduce the amount from Kshs10 billion to Kshs6 billion. This is very sad. In Nyandarua, we lose potatoes and carrots. We need to start industries. It is sad when we reduce monies for industrialisation. I do not know what to say.

Hon. Osotsi. I hope I got the name correctly this time.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman for giving me the opportunity. I rise to oppose this. I concur with what the fellow Hon. Member has said. It is contradictory to deduct money from this Vote and take it to defence and yet, we have been told that manufacturing, which is basically industrialisation, is one of the Big Four Agenda. We have removed Kshs3.4 billion from industrialisation to defence. We need an explanation on that one. We have also noted that some of the industries they have deducted money from are those to do with value addition like the leather industry, RIVATEX in Eldoret, leather industry in Athi River and Kajiado. We need an explanation from the Chair of the Budget and Appropriations Committee and the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Trade, Industry and Cooperatives why they made this decision.

They have also reduced the allocation to standards and business incubation. If we want to industrialise the country, we must invest in incubation and start-ups. That is the trend globally. We cannot keep talking about the Big Four Agenda and, specifically manufacturing, if we do not invest in start-ups and in business incubation. It is contradictory of the Big Four Agenda of the Government. We would rather get money from NYS and put it on the Vote rather than deducting money from the Vote and take it to defence.

Thank you.

We will get a few more Members and we shall move on. Hon. Tonui.

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Hon. Tonui, you have a chance and yet, you are consulting with your neighbour!

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman for giving me this opportunity to make my comments on the Vote. I believe the Kshs6.9 billion is inadequate to support our industries. One of the key pillars of the Jubilee Government is manufacturing. If we only allocate Kshs6.9 billion towards that sector, I believe it is really inadequate.

I am also saddened that Stegro Sacco Factory in Bomet County was not included. It was a presidential pledge that was made one year ago - that the Government was going to support the farmers in the tea growing sector to complete their factory. They are really waiting for the money. But it is unfortunate that we have not been able to capture it in this vote.

I, therefore, oppose the Vote because it is quite unfavourable to me and the people of Bomet Central. I wish that we had enhanced it to ensure that the pledge is taken care of. The pledges we have been making all over the country are turning the other way and it is not good for us.

I oppose it.

I see quite bit of interest on this one. I will extend by three Members, and then we will make progress. Because of gender considerations, I am gracious enough to give the chance to Hon. Nyaga.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman for giving me this chance to support the Vote. It is not fair to reduce the money from the Vote because we need industries in the country. Our industries can improve the economy of the country.

In Tharaka Nithi, we need many industries so that our women and youth can improve their lives. But when we reduce money for industries, it is not fair. It is one of the Big Four Agenda that our economy needs to grow. It means that it will improve our lives because with industries, we are talking about water, food and roads and many other things that fall under this Vote.

I support.

Hon. Tobiko.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. Whereas I stand to support the allocation of this amount, I believe that if we were serious with the President’s Big Four Agenda, specifically manufacturing, we should have allocated more money for industrialisation and to address the unemployment of our youth in the country.

I am particularly concerned by the removal of the leather industry which had been budgeted for. The Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee is a good friend of mine and I had promised him that he would soon be my in-law, but I am withdrawing that because he has removed money for the leather industry which was for Kajiado.

More importantly, we should protect the existing industries. There is a problem of us going to close various existing industries, particularly the East Africa Portland Cement.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

What is it Hon. Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Hon. Peris Tobiko purports to have offered her daughter to me. I must admit that, indeed, Hon. Peris Tobiko has a very beautiful daughter who is a very good lawyer, but I was not aware of the offer. If she had given the offer, I do not know why she would withdraw that offer on the basis of work as a Member of Parliament and the Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee.

Order, Hon. Members. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

What is it Leader of the Majority Party?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, the Chair of the Budget and Appropriations Committee must declare interest. We cannot use the budget of the country to pay some dowry and do family business. It is very sad. If it was in the US Senate, somebody would have resigned. Hon. Ichung’wah must make full disclosure. Now, we have found out that the budget-making process has been extended outside the premises of Parliament where a Member is exchanging a daughter to the Chair for favours. We want to know how much she has been allocated.

She must disclose how much she got from the national Budget.

Order, I am not going to allow us to go in that direction. Hon. Tobiko and Hon. Ichung’wah are Africans. If there were private conversations outside the boundaries, those private conversations should happen out there and not here. Hon. Tobiko, you have your seconds to finish.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I was only trying to emphasise the importance of the leather industry to the pastoralist communities. I also do not want to lose the very important point I was making about protecting existing industries. The East African Portland Cement is threatened with closure because there is a lot of mismanagement. People are losing jobs. The Government needs to protect such old industries that have created employment for our people. I support and would have wished to see more allocation for the industries. Thank you.

I will give a chance to the final person, and then I will give the Chair under programmes. Hon. Oundo, please take one minute only.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I must admit I sit in the Departmental Committee on Trade, Industry and Cooperatives. It has been a long battle to get where we are. We must appreciate the little we were given. We expected much more. However, going forward, we need to look at Kenyan industrial estates a bit more favourably. They had initially been allocated Kshs1 billion but during haggling, it was reduced to Kshs300 million. We are afraid the Kshs300 million might not be much to support small-scale industries in various regions of this country. If we truly want the industry to account for almost 15 per cent of the GDP, we must show seriousness in allocating resources towards this area. There are so many traditional sectors where we have pumped in billions year in, year out and yet, the outcome is not commensurate with the amount of resources allocated. It is high time we started rating so as to see how much more we can offer into that sector. We support but we urge that in the coming budgets, efforts must be made to truly pump in more resources to enable us achieve the Big Four Agenda. Let me hope it is just paperwork; it is not just populist statements. We must match our words with allocation of resources.

I will give only the Chair a chance.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I support with a very heavy heart. As you have seen, this is one of the few State departments that have suffered huge cuts. As you know, the manufacturing industry is one of the Big Four Agenda. It is high time we The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

walked the talk. We cannot be talking about industrialising this country when we are cutting the budget of allocation. As a Committee, we were strained even in the manner the report was even given to us. Additional information was brought to us when we were presenting to the Budget and Appropriations Committee. We had to retreat for a day to consider a determination that was done elsewhere to consider that Kshs4 billion was reduced from one State department. I will only be comfortable if the Leader of the Majority Party – and I know he is listening – puts in the next Supplementary Budget that we will be having later in the year, more money for industries. I landed in the morning from Ethiopia, a country that was far much behind us. Right now, they are miles ahead of us in terms of industries. It is the question of investing in industries. As the Chair leading the Committee on Trade, Industry and Cooperatives, we support it but with a lot of reservations. We also look forward that when we have the next Supplementary Budget, definitely, we will allocate more funds to this State Department. Thank you.

Hon. Obara Akinyi.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I beg to support the proposal for the simple reason that the Government has invested a lot of money in putting up TVET institutions in different constituencies. We know that in those TVET institutions, special focus is put on what is best for that region. Mine, for instance, is agricultural engineering. I believe that this Budget will support this kind of industry in my area. We need to give our young people opportunities to do businesses. Where else would we be able to grow this, other than through the TVET? I, therefore, support the proposal. Thank you.

I will give one more Member an opportunity. Hon. Koyi Waluke.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I stand to support but there are few things which I would like to comment on. First is how the money was moved from the industry to other departments.

We will return the microphone to you. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I was saying that industries are a very important organ in this country. To make this country grow, we need to give industries a lot or enough money to make them move. Young people outside there are looking for jobs. If we do not build up industries, our young people will get into problems. For many years, our industries have not been doing well due to lack of finances. I thank the Chairman of the BAC. Before the money was reallocated, he had put enough money for the industries. Due to other needs from other State departments, it was moved. We need to reallocate enough money for industries in the mini-budget. I support the idea.

Hon. Kanini, I know you are the Chair but you are standing before I give you the chance. Do not sit. We are able to make progress if you could go straight to the point.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I, again, support with a lot of reservations. We had allocated Kshs700 million for Constituency Industrial Centres. That entire amount was removed. The Kshs700 million was to create incubation centres for the industries. Unfortunately, it was removed. I am hoping again that, if we are serious about industrialisation and putting the country on an industrial path, we have to invest and invest heavily. I am hoping that in the next Supplementary Budget, as I said, we will consider and re- introduce this. Secondly, whatever we produce in this country has to be traded. Whatever you are producing in the country, we have to trade it. We also have to invest here, locally and internationally. Even if we produce and we are not marketing those products, it definitely would be a zero sum. I support, of course, with reservations.

Programmes.

Hon. Members, we shall give a chance to a few Members on this one. Hon. Tum Chebet, Member for Nandi. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I support that amount meant for the State Department for Labour. There are a lot of industrial disputes. So, they can use the money to go to courts and what have you and supervise the staff under their department. Let them be given that money. There are a lot of industrial unrests in our universities. They are the ones who go to courts to attend to those disputes.

Yes. Hon. Korei. We will have the final person on that one. Hon. Jonah Mwangi, you seem to have delayed to rise. You have the Floor.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. At the outset, I support that allocation. We need promotion of good labour services; we need good practices in the labour offices. That is why we need all this money. As my friend from Pokot has said, we need an industrial revolution. So, we need money to support the learning in industrial courses and all that.

Hon. Gogo Achieng, Member for Rangwe.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I am rising to support. The allocations are fine. So, given the need that we have, especially for improving on workforce and capacity building, it is important that those allocations are given as such.

Very well. Programmes.

Hon. Members, we have a few Members on this one. Hon. ole Lemein Korei, Member for Narok South.

Let me allow the Leader of the Majority Party first.

Order. You cannot allocate time, Hon. Member.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I rise to support this particular allocation. This is a very important vote because it takes care of our elderly citizens in this country. However, even as I support, my major concern is the delay as far as this money is concerned. It is takes a number of months before the beneficiaries benefit from this particular account. I support the allocation.

Before I give this opportunity to Hon. Mutemi, I will give the Leader of the Majority Party. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, this is a very important budget line for social security for the elderly who we represent in this House. I hope the Cabinet Secretary and the Permanent Secretary in charge of Labour are watching me. You can steal but you cannot steal from the elderly. This money is being stolen. I want to go on record. The actual beneficiaries do not get their money. They pass through a very bureaucratic system where there are chiefs and social workers involved. This is one of the biggest achievements of the Jubilee administration because they gave an insurance policy for the elderly. The insurance policy was to give a stipend of about Kshs3000. We became the first African country to provide social protection to its old citizens. That is the achievement of President Uhuru Kenyatta. What is the implementation matrix? As leaders, we represent the people. We must say it. This money was one time going through post office, and then it was taken to Safaricom Mpesa and, now, it is with Equity Bank. The amount of money is being hoarded in the bank accounts of major financial institutions who earn interests out of this very noble idea. I am sure the Members who are in the Labour and Social Welfare Committee in this House will ensure that the money we appropriate for the elderly people in our constituencies, and our country…. A country that takes care of its elderly will be a country that will be blessed by the Almighty God. So, let us make our elders who are 70 years and above get government insurance policy and their stipends in a timely and efficiently manner, without anybody corrupting it. I urge our colleagues through the Chair, Hon. Ali Wario, to follow it up. Let us get reports every three months and let us see it, on constituency basis, how many are accessing those monies. If, for example, I have 2,000 elderly people in my constituency, I can verify from which location and wards they come from.

Hon. Members, I urge the Members who I will give opportunity to be quick as we have a few minutes to the time the House should rise. Hon. Mutemi.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I rise to support this allocation. However, I witness a lot of problems in the villages within my constituency with regard to the elderly. Many of them are not getting the stipends. I would urge the Department to look at a possibility of even incorporating Members of Parliament into their committees so that we can help by giving them the names of those old people in the villages. This will allow the elderly to benefit from those allocations. I also want to echo what my colleagues have said on delays of the issuance of the stipends. When they go to collect the money, they are kept waiting. Sometimes they do not get the money and go home. Those old people go with walking sticks and clubs. It is very painful when you see them suffering. I, therefore, urge the Ministry to involve Members of Parliament in taking care of those elderly people. With those few remarks, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I support. Thank you.

Let us see whether we can have two Members, if they can be quick. Hon. Manje.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, for giving me this chance. While I support this social safety net, I want to tell the Committee to be a bit careful because we are allocating money to move the country towards social welfare. If you check what we give and what we allocate to agriculture and trade, I think we have wrong priorities. We can still solve the same problem by making our industries and agriculture instead of giving money directly to The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

people. So, that Kshs31 billion is too much compared to what has been allocated to agriculture, industry and fisheries combined. I think we should be a bit careful.

Hon. Nyikal, one minute.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, this thing started under my watch in 2008-2009. Basically, we observed what was happening in Brazil. Let me say this: The programme for the elderly persons is a good programme but I will just say the problems that need to be solved. Align the administration of this programme with devolution. The offices that deal with this are not aligned. So, this is left to the banks. That needs to be done. That is what is causing the losses. In the same Department, there are orphans and vulnerable children. I would like the Chair of this Committee to follow this up. We have a lot of money going to the Child Welfare Society. I have looked at the Estimates as the Leader of the Majority Party challenged us and I have seen a lot of money going to the CWS, and that is good. A lot of foster homes are being built. However, I have not seen any money at all going to the National Council for Children’s Services, which is a national Semi Autonomous Government Agency (SAGA). I do not know how it operates now. The only thing to be done, look at the structure of the Ministry in charge of this

its offices on the ground. Many are being built but I talk to them, they are not directly linked in the distribution of this money. A lot of this money is actually staying in the banks. The health bit of it, again, was started. What was to be started was the same names to be given to NHIF to issue cards. I do not know why they are still going to the rural areas to register new people. Structural reorganisation of this is of utmost importance for it to succeed.

Mover!

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move that the Committee of Supply does report to the House its consideration of the Budget Estimates for the Financial Year 2018/2019 in respect of Votes 1107 to 1185 and its approval thereof with amendments and seek leave to sit again in the afternoon.

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Chairman you have the Floor.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has considered the Budget Estimates for the Financial Year 2018/2019 in respect of Votes1107 to 1185.

Mover! You are doing quite a bit of some consultation.

Yes, with Hon. Gladys Shollei. Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move that the House does agree with the Committee in the said Report and I also request Hon. Korei ole Lemein, Member of Narok South, to second the Motion for agreement with the Report of the Committee of Supply on the Budget Estimates.

seconded.

Hon. Members, the time now being 1.02 p.m. This House stands adjourned until today afternoon at 2.30 p.m.

The House rose at 1:02 p.m.

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