Hon. Members, I must commend you this morning for attaining quorum in the first shot. It is not normal on a Wednesday morning. Therefore, I must commend Members and, of course, wish our Muslim brothers and sisters Ramadhan Kareem. Please, proceed.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker, and Ramadhan Kareem to our Muslim brothers and sisters. This is Petition No.39 of 2019 regarding relocation of Kibos School for children with special needs to pave way for the expansion of a factory. I, the undersigned, on behalf of Kibos Primary and Secondary School for children with special needs, draw the attention of House to the following:

THAT, the Rotary International built Kibos School for the Blind through the help of the Salvation Army Church in 1963 on land donated by Kibos Prison; THAT, the school admits children as young as four years old and includes a primary and secondary school section with a total enrolment of 187 and 170 children respectively; THAT, an investor, Kibos Sugar and Allied Industries Limited (KSAIL), has been piling pressure on Kibos School for the Blind to vacate the land it has occupied since establishment in 1963, so as to pave way for the expansion of the factory; THAT, the four Kibos Sugar and Allied Industries Limited (KSAIL) factories around the school, namely a sugar factory, distillery, paper mill and a charcoal plant, were built in 2007 despite an environmental impact assessment report advising against construction of the factory; THAT, environmental pollution occasioned by operations of the factory in the form of deafening noise caused by the factory’s machines operations, thick smoke, strong odour and release of effluent directly into River Kibos has been detrimental to the school's learning environment and children’s health; THAT, the grounds given for the intended relocation are to protect children with special needs from the harsh, continuous environmental health hazards emanating from the factory’s The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

You see, this is the problem with the formalities of things like petitions where they say “Your petitioner humbly prays” when he is not humble himself. But that was not part of it. You put a lot of salt into that matter. Anyway, it is open. I would like to give chances to maybe two Members to speak to this Petition and then we will move on. Let us start with Hon. Wanyonyi Wetangula, Member for Westlands.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I support that Petition and commend the Member. When people are being relocated or moved from their original place, the places they are taken to must be as good as or even better than where they are coming from. When they are relocating children with special needs to the middle of a sugar plantation, I do not know how that will happen. It is something that is sensitive. It must be relooked into. Whoever is doing that must provide a better environment for the school and the children because these are kids who need support. They are kids who need attention all the time. If they are taken to such places, given that they are visually impaired, it will be a big challenge for them and even the parents. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Very well. We will now have Hon. (Ms.) Dennitah Ghati. I will give a chance to two more Members because we saved a lot of time. By you being present in good time, I will give a chance to two more Members.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, allow me to support the Petition and thank my colleague, Hon. Sankok. He has brought in an issue that has been all over in the social media and the region we come from. The issue of Kibos School and the children living with disabilities in this country requires urgent attention. I am happy that the Departmental Committee on Labour and Social Welfare will take up this issue and come to the aid of these children. Persons with disabilities in this country are vulnerable. You can imagine these are children with disabilities who are looking for education. It is high time the Committee on Labour and Social Welfare and the County Government of Kisumu looked into this issue. This is an issue in Kisumu County. Persons with disabilities in this country belong to counties, constituencies, wards and villages. It is our responsibility to ensure that whatever the children are going through is checked. We have a copy of the story of this school. It is a school that came first, even before the factory. The fact that the children are being compelled and chased out of the environment that they have known as a school and a home is utter discrimination. Discrimination based on disability is against the law. Allow me to call upon the Committee on Labour and Social Welfare, the Ministry of Labour and Social Protection and the County Government of Kisumu to very quickly put our children into the atmosphere they belong to. Allow me to support the Petition 100 per cent.

Okay. Now, Hon. Lekumontare Jackson.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I want to support this Petition. Children with disabilities need good attention.

What is your point of order, Leader of the Majority Party?

Chair, can you see Hon. Millie and Hon. Atandi? That position is very compromising. They are very close.

My eyes are not very sharp.

She is trying to move away now, but that should not have been. We are leaders.

I had not seen anything untoward from Hon. Millie Odhiambo until you mentioned her name and then she started… Hon. Millie Odhiambo, please, take your seat. The other Member should walk away. Okay, proceed. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I want to say that children with disabilities need proper attention. They are the most vulnerable people. If they are to be relocated and their place taken, it is not good. I support the Petition and thank Nominee 001 for this. Otherwise, it is necessary for the children to be protected.

Hon. Major Bashir, just wait there. You will be getting your connection. I think there is a problem with that microphone. So, come to the other one. There is a problem somewhere. Let us try that one of Hon. Caleb Kositany, which is working. I do not think that microphone is working. You will have to come to the one which, ordinarily, is used by the more senior Members down there. That one is obviously going to be working.

I think this one is supposed to work because it is for the Deputy Speaker. Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity. First and foremost, I wish fellow Muslims in the country and across the globe Ramadhan Kareem. It is a blessed month. Therefore, I want to share this day and month with fellow Kenyans; fellow Muslims. This Petition is quite in order. It talks about people with disabilities, especially children. The contention is that the Kibos Sugar Factory has asked for relocation of the school which has children with disabilities. I think the sugar factory is quite in order that the school and the factory should not be located in the same area. We are talking about children with visual impairment. Therefore, the sugar factory being close to the school will add another issue of making them deaf in the near future.

Yes. Make brief comments because we will be sending it to the Committee for further transactions.

My concern is to ask the Kibos Sugar Factory to bear the cost of relocating the school to a place which is accessible. I am told it is about eight kilometres from the road and these are visually impaired children. Yes, we want the school to be relocated, but at the cost of the Kibos Sugar Factory and it should be to an area that is accessible and with all the required facilities at the cost of the factory.

Hon. Members, that Petition is committed to the relevant Committee, namely, the Committee on Labour and Social Welfare. Hon. Caleb Kositany, if you really want to speak, you will have to make a further request. Next Order.

Leader of the Majority Party. Well, as he prepares… The Leader of the Majority Party, please.

I am talking to a very senior Member from Nakuru County. Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table of the House: The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Very well. We will have the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table of the House: Report of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs on a Petition by Mr. Dominic Ng’ang’a to amend the typographical errors in the Constitution of Kenya.

Next Order.

I do not think we have Statements under this Order. So, we will proceed to Questions. We will start with the Question by Hon. Col. (Rtd) Dido Ali Rasso. These are the Questions by Private Notice.

Thank you very much, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I beg to ask Question No.021/2019. It is directed to the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and Co-ordination of National Government: (i) Is the Cabinet Secretary aware that on 4th September 2018 armed bandits attacked Horondeer area of Qilta Location, Saku Constituency and caused atrocities, including killing of Mzee Wako Tato at Horondeer area and other two individuals, and that no suspects have been apprehended? (ii) Could the Cabinet Secretary explain the progress, if any, of the investigations of the incident and clarify the action the Ministry has taken to ensure that the culprits are arrested and arraigned in court and recover guns and other weapons used during the attack? The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Very well. That will be replied to before the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security.

Next is the Member for Isiolo North, Hon. Hassan Oda Hulufo.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I rise to ask Question No.022/2019. It is addressed to the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and Co-ordination of National Government: (i) Is the Cabinet Secretary aware that one Chief Inspector of Police, Mr. Hersi Kene Tache (Force No.95050448), deployed in Embakasi Police Station under the Rapid Deployment Unit has been missing since 26th February 2019 despite having been reported to the police? (ii) Could the Cabinet Secretary explain the outcome of the investigations into disappearance of the said officer and his whereabouts?

That one will be replied to before the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security.

Thank you Hon. Deputy Speaker, and Ramadhan Kareem to our Muslim sisters and brothers. I rise to ask Question No.025/2019. The Question is directed to the Cabinet Secretary for Education: (i) Is the Ministry refunding fees and other expenses incurred by the affected students in teacher training colleges in the country following their withdrawal from the said colleges, taking into account the Ministry’s reference number: Ministry of Education Headquarters 3/13/3 dated 26th April 2019? (ii) Is the Government availing to the affected students a direct entry to the technical training institutions as per part of their withdrawal policy including paying fees?

Hon. Lesuuda, is this the Question that is on the Order Paper, Question No. 025/2019? Is it the one?

Yes. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I am not able to really follow what you are saying. There was some distraction somewhere. Can you redo it, please, for me to confirm? The one I see here is the one on the declaration of 26th April by the Ministry. Do you have the Order Paper? I know you are a techno-savvy Member.

That is the Question, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Okay, proceed.

So, do I start?

Proceed.

Okay.

The Question that you are supposed to be asking is Question No.025/2019. Do it anyway because they are all your Questions. So, do that one first.

Yes, it is on the same issue.

Let us go by the Order Paper because this is what will go to the Committee.

Okay, the one on the Order Paper. So, I rise to ask Question No.025/2019. It is directed to the Cabinet Secretary for Education: (i) Following the declaration of the Ministry of 26th April 2019, precluding students with KCSE grade D+ and below from admission in teacher training colleges, will the Ministry refund fees and other expenses incurred by the affected students? (ii) Could the Ministry consider formulating a harmonised policy on teacher training to ensure that such incidences do not recur in the future?

Very well. That one will be replied to before the Departmental Committee on Education and Research. We will now go to Ordinary Questions. We will start off with the Member for Butula, Hon. Joseph Maero.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I rise to ask Question No.198/2019. The Question is directed to the Cabinet Secretary for Transport, Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development: (i) Is the Cabinet Secretary aware that in 2006, parcels of land were acquired for the construction of Ejinja-Bumala Road in Butula Constituency and to date the land owners are yet to be compensated? (ii) Is the Cabinet Secretary further aware that despite the Kenya National Highways Authority (KeNHA) releasing partial payment of Kshs103 million for compensation in November 2018 to the National Land Commission to effect the payments, the payments have not been made to the land owners? (iii) What measures is the Ministry putting in place to ensure that immediate compensation is made to the beneficiaries, taking into account the current value of the said parcels of land?

That one will be replied to before the Departmental Committee on Transport, Public Works and Housing. Before I allow the Member for Mathioya to ask his Question, let me recognise, in the Public Gallery, ACK St. Andrews Zimmerman Primary School from Kasarani Constituency of Nairobi County.

Proceed, Hon. Peter Kihara. There is a microphone next to you.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I rise to ask Question No.206/2019 and it is directed to the Cabinet Secretary for the National Treasury and Planning. (i) Could the Cabinet Secretary provide details on the status of the report submitted to the Ministry on investigations by the Inter-Governmental Agencies Taskforce on Land Ref. No MN/397/1/Bamburi (Kwa Bulo)? (ii) What is the status of implementation of the recommendations in the said report? The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

That one will be replied to before the Departmental Committee on Lands. Hon. Abdi Ibrahim, Member for Lafey.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker, my Question is directed to the Cabinet Secretary for Transport, Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development. (i) Is the Cabinet Secretary aware that long distance bus drivers in the North Eastern Region of Kenya work for long hours without rest, hence endangering passengers and leading to accidents? (ii) What action is the Ministry taking to curb this practice in order to control the occurrence of accidents? Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

That Question will be replied before the Departmental Committee on Transport, Public Works and Housing. That marks the end of that particular Order. Next Order.

The Leader of the Majority Party

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to move the following Procedural Motion: THAT, this House orders that the business appearing as Order Nos.11, 12 and 13 in the Order Paper be exempted from the provisions of Standing Order 40(3) being a Wednesday Morning, a day allocated for business not sponsored by the Majority or Minority Party or business sponsored by a Committee. Order No.11 is nominating our colleagues who have just won by-elections to committees. Order No.12 is important because it is now more than a year since we constituted as a House, the National Cohesion and Integration Commission. There is a big vacuum and the courts have said that Parliament cannot vet and the same time, do an interview. We are on the Second Reading of this law, which is trying to create a system where Parliament’s role will just be to vet. Order No.13 is the Report on the examination of financial statements for the national Government for the Financial Year 2015/2016. Taking into consideration that we are going on a very long recess beginning Friday, so that our committees can deal with the Budget - the House agrees with the Calendar and will be back on 4th June - we need to finish very important business before the The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Leader of the Minority Party.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. The reasons for requesting this House to agree with us or with the House Business Committee on allowing businesses that are sponsored by Majority or Minority parties to be debated on a day that we need to be debating Private Members’ Motions and Bills have been given. The Leader of the Majority Party has talked about our colleagues who are not in Committees and need to be members of such. On the issue of national cohesion, we will understand why it is important that we debate it now. There is the issue of Public Accounts Committee reports. We know that we are going to the Division of Revenue Bill, which is already contentious with outdated accounts or accounts that date back to 2015. We want to be as current as possible. Finally, I just want to urge this House that as we proceed on recess, there is a proposal which will allow us to sit tomorrow morning so that we can transact some urgent business of the House. Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

What is it, Leader of the Majority Party?

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I do not want to take you back, but if you look at Order No.10, the County Governments’ Retirement Scheme Bill (National Assembly Bill, No.29 of 2019), a similar Bill has been passed by this House. It is in the Senate and we are waiting for it. In fact, the Senate is supposed to do the Committee of the whole House. So, I am wondering why a similar Bill can just come back.

I would really want to know if there was a similar Bill. Is it just the title?

When I saw it last night, I went through. It is a copy and paste. So, we need the Speaker to give direction. We are asking for the Speaker to make a communication on this Bill before it is sent to the Committee. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Let us have the Leader of the Minority Party and then, of course, we will have the Motion getting to know why we have a similar Bill.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I think we need to look at this matter and make a ruling that we are not going to have legislation in this House becoming untidy. The Bill that is with the Senate now is a Government Bill and was moved by the Leader of the Majority Party. There was another Bill by Hon. Njagagua, which is the same in content as this Bill by Hon. Chachu Ganya. The one by Hon. Njagagua, even though the House agreed to transact with some doubts around it, the House pronounced itself on it at the Second Reading and defeated it because it was similar to the other one. Now, we are getting a third Bill which is similar to the other two. It is time this House stopped wasting time in making decisions. In fact, our Standing Orders are very clear that once we make a decision on a matter…

I can hear the Members are asking about the HBC. The reason we bring Bills to the Floor of the House is because the HBC need not be accused by Members of killing their Bills.

Actually, the Leader of the Majority Party has just spoken to it. You are the Leader of the Minority Party and you are speaking to the same. You are both Members of the HBC. If you were clear that this is a Bill that has the same content as the previous one, you would have stopped it at that point, so that we do not even have to have the Speaker pronouncing himself on it.

If this House can allow us by setting that precedent that Bills can be killed at the HBC, we would, but I think it is dangerous. Let us not just look at this matter here and make a decision which may affect Members in future. If you give the HBC too much power to be deciding which business should come to the House, we can use that power, but we may use it dangerously. So, I am just pleading with this House to make a decision.

I hear you. I do not think I need to give opportunity to any other Member of the HBC. The Leader of the Majority Party and the Leader of the Minority Party have spoken. Hon. Makali Mulu.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. You may have to guide the House in terms of what the Leader of the Majority Party and the Leader of the Minority Party are saying. The fact that the Bill is the same as it was last year does not mean it cannot come to this House because times have also changed. Maybe with time, this Bill might now make more sense than it did last year. I think this is critical and should be analysed, otherwise, we will kill all these Bills.

I do not think I quite agree with you. This is a Bill, as the Leader of the Majority Party and the Leader of the Minority Party have said, that is still actively being transacted. It is now in the Senate. We could not start it before we cleared with the other one. It has not failed there. In any case, if the Bills are the same, if it was decided one way or the other, it should not come to the House within the six months period. Anyway, allow us to be very clear that these Bills are the same, because if they are, then truly, we cannot proceed with it because we will be wasting the time of this House. So let me confirm something.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to move the following Motion: THAT, pursuant to the provisions of the Standing Order No.175, and further to the resolution of the House of 11th October 2018 on appointment of Members to respective Committees; this House further approves the following additional appointments to the Committees specified hereunder— (i) The Hon. David Ouma Ochieng, MP, to be appointed to the Departmental Committee on Health. (ii) The Hon. Ahmed Kolosh, MP to be appointed to the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security. (iii) The Hon. Julius Mawathe Musili, MP to be appointed to the Departmental Committee on Energy and the Select Committee on National Cohesion and Equal Opportunity. The Committee that I chair, in its fourth sitting on 6th May 2019 considered requests from the National Super Alliance Coalition that Hon. Julius Mawathe Musili, after winning back his Embakasi South seat, be nominated to his former two committees, which were the Departmental Committee on Energy and the Select Committee on National Cohesion and Equal Opportunity, and Hon. David Ouma Ochieng’, Member for Ugenya, be nominated to the Departmental Committee on Health, which was served by the previous Member. Hon. Ahmed Kolosh, Member for Wajir West, is nominated to the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security with concurrence from the Leader of the Minority Party and the Whip. This is just to make sure that our colleagues who won back their seats, apart from Hon. David Ochieng’, who won afresh, are in committees. They have been sworn in, but they have no committees and committees are very important for a Member to do his oversight and representation role. So, I beg to move that we approve them, so that we can go to business. I ask the Leader of the Minority Party to second.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I think Parliament staff need to look at my machine. It keeps hanging. I am rising to second this Motion. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Put the Question.

Okay, it seems that is the wish of the Members. So, I put the Question.

Next Order.

Chairman of the Select Committee on National Cohesion and Integration, Hon. Kamanda, you have the Floor.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. From the outset, I thank the HBC. They have seen the need to have this Bill read a Second Time this morning because of the urgency.

On a point of order.

Leader of Majority Party, what is your point of order? The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Procedurally, before the Chair thanks us, he needs to move that the National Cohesion and Integration (Amendment) Bill (National Assembly Bill No.12 of 2019) be read a Second Time.

That is perfectly in order. The thanks have been recorded anyway. Now proceed and move.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that the National Cohesion and Integration (Amendment) Bill (National Assembly Bill No.12 of 2019) be now read a Second Time. The National Cohesion and Integration (Amendment) Bill, 2019 was read a First Time on 27th March 2019. Pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 127(2), the Bill was committed to the Select Committee on National Cohesion and Equal Opportunity for consideration. The Bill mainly seeks to amend Section 17 of the National Cohesion and Integration Act, 2008, which deals with the procedure of appointing commissioners to the National Cohesion and Integration Commission (NCIC).

Hon. Deputy Speaker, you will remember that in your Communication issued during the afternoon sitting of Wednesday, 3rd October 2018, you notified the House of the expiry of the term of office of the chairperson and commissioners of the NCIC. You further directed that the National Assembly Committee on National Cohesion and Equal Opportunity be charged with the responsibility of shortlisting, interviewing, ranking and recommending to the House, persons suitable to be nominated as commissioners, pursuant to Section 17(1)(b) of the National Cohesion and Integration Act (No.12 of 2008).

The Committee embarked on the process of recruitment of commissioners. After putting out an advert calling for applications, the Office of the Clerk received 395 applicants for the position. The Committee, following a rigorous short-listing criterion, shortlisted 54 applicants, of whom 34 or 63 per cent were male while 20 or 37 per cent were female. The shortlisted applicants were to be interviewed from Monday, 12th to Wednesday, 14th November 2018, both days inclusive. However, on 7th November 2018, the National Assembly, through the Directorate of Litigation and Compliance Services, was served with a constitutional petition filed at the High Court, Nairobi. In the said petition, the petitioner contended that the recruiting of persons for appointment as commissioners of the NCIC is contrary to the principle of separation of powers. The court agreed with the petitioner and suspended the recruitment process on 9th November, 2018, awaiting judgment on the matter.

The court, in its judgement made on 14th January 2019, ruled that NCIC is a public office and therefore, the appointment of its commissioners falls under the purview of the Public Service Commission (PSC). While the National Assembly has appealed against the judgement, NCIC is still without commissioners close to nine months later. It is in this regard that the Committee seeks to amend the National Cohesion and Integration Act of 2008 to be aligned with the constitutional principle of separation of powers.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, Clause 2 of the Bill proposes to amend Section 17 of the Act on the membership of the commission. The Bill proposes to change the procedure for appointment of commissioners to the NCIC where it is proposed that the President nominates the commissioners and the National Assembly approves the nominations as opposed to the current position whereby the National Assembly nominates the commissioners and the President appoints them. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Order, Hon. Sankok! Proceed.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I call upon my neighbour and the Leader of the Majority Party in the House to second the Motion.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I second and thank the Chair of the National Cohesion and Equal Opportunity Committee for rising to the occasion and bringing this very important National Cohesion and Integration (Amendment) Bill 2019. This Bill, as he said, was read the First Time on 27th March 2019. The Bill mainly seeks to amend Section 17 of the Nation Cohesion and Integration Act of 2008, which deals with the procedure for appointing commissioners to the NCIC.

I am sure those of us who were in the 10th Parliament, Hon. Mbadi and Hon. Millie, participated in the legislation of this Act. As the Chairperson has mentioned in moving, on Wednesday, 3rd October 2018, this House was notified of the expiry of the term of office of the chairperson and commissioners of this Commission. The National Assembly Select Committee on National Cohesion and Equal Opportunity was directed to start short listing, interviewing, ranking and recommending to the House persons suitable to be nominated as commissioners pursuant to Section 17(1) of the Act (No.12 of 2008). When the Committee embarked on the process…

Order, Hon. Sankok! Order!

I thought Hon. Sankok is Hon. Kamket because he is seated next to two ladies. Sankok is an innocent man because he happens to be seated on his chair.

Order, Hon. Sankok!

Chair, we are dealing with cohesion and I am sure that is what they are discussing.

There are three Members who are laughing in an un- parliamentary manner.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, when the Committee embarked on the process of recruitment on 7th November, it was halted with a constitutional Petition No.385 of 2018 by none other than the famous… The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Leader of the Majority Party, Members should not use sign language in the Chamber. I can see two Members exchanging with a senior Member on my left using sign language.

It is allowed.

It should be the ordinary sign language not others we cannot comprehend. Proceed, Hon. Leader of the Majority Party. I can see there is a lot of distraction.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, sign language is recognised in the Constitution. But I am sure the sign language you are referring to is the one of the village. For example, when we were young, growing up, that is how we used to reach out to the other side. There was a sign language. Hon. Deputy Speaker, I think you need to separate this group and also remind Hon. Fatuma that she is fasting and should not be with this group because her fast can…

Hon. Deputy Speaker, our great friend, Okiya Omtatah, filed a petition against the Attorney-General and the National Assembly. Of course, he contended that the recruiting of persons for appointment as commissioners to the Commission is contrary to the principle of separation of powers. I agree with Okiya Omtatah and the court because we cannot be the ones interviewing and then sending the names to the President who again sends the names to us for vetting. I think Parliament has the role of vetting and the other arms of Government are the ones to do the rest.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, you know I am fasting, so the ladies should not pass in front of me. This is because I might look at one side and if you read the principles of Ramadhan, you have to control eye contact. As I am speaking, can you allow only men to pick water?

I will not even allow the men themselves because that will be against the Standing Orders. The other one will be against the tenets of fasting and Ramadhan. But this particular one which I will use is that there should be nothing that will impede my direct contact with the Member who is speaking on the Floor. That is you as far as the Standing Orders are concerned.

No problem, Hon. Deputy Speaker. As they pick water, I will look the other side because I have to follow the tenets.

On a point of order, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Member for Baringo, are you insisting that there must be eye contact?

On a point of order, Hon. Deputy Speaker. Is it really in order for the Leader of the Majority Party to discriminate agasint one gender in this House by saying that he does not want to see women? He has a woman in the House and he is still fasting.

You are not the one in the House.

I cannot be the one who will prevent him from doing the right thing while he is fasting.

Leader of the Majority Party, I can even answer for you. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

The one in the house is special. She has been recognised according to the Quran. I am asking, out of good courtesy, that they also respect Ramadhan, so that as I speak, they can wait for 10 minutes before they pick water. That is what I am asking. But if they insist on picking water, then I will look the other side because this is a holy month.

So, you are also suggesting that as they come, they must warn you appropriately that they are on the way, so that you can look the other side.

This month, even Hon. Milllie Odhiambo knows, I behave very well and eye contact is not allowed. There are many things. Hon. Deputy Speaker, you told me that you can do anything to me because I will not react. That is true. This is cohesion.

On a point of order, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

You are wasting a lot of time Members. I hope it is a varied point of order. What is it, Hon. Sankok?

He must state which Standing Order.

On a point of order, Hon. Deputy Speaker. Is the Leader of the Majority Party, who I respect, his excellency Aden Duale, in order to turn the whole House into a mosque? You know we are turning this House into a mosque.

No! I think you are completely out of order yourself. Ignore that, Leader of the Majority Party, and proceed.

There are no chairs in the mosque, but mats. I am seeing chairs here. So, Hon. Sankok just wants to harass me.

The court agreed with Okiya Omtatah and on 9th November, it suspended the recruitment process. Again, Parliament complied with that court order. But the court went further and gave its judgement on 14th January 2019 and ruled that the NCIC is a public office and, therefore, the appointment of its commissioners falls under the purview of the Public Service Commission and that Parliament can only play its oversight role of vetting. Therefore, lack of commissioners is impeding the work of the NCIC. For the last two years, we have had no commissioners. I think this Bill is very important. We should pass it. The people in the selection panel which has been stated in this Bill are the right ones. One person is from the Office of the President, the rest are nominated by the PSC, the Attorney-General, the EACC, the National Gender and Equality Commission (NGEC) and the Judicial Service Commission (JSC). That looks like a very transparent process.

During the deliberations, the Committee also resolved to amend that the person nominated by the NGEC shall not be the chairperson of the commission. The chairperson of the NGEC is a member of the NCIC. Therefore, her inclusion in the selection panel is not a conflict of interest. My only problem, which we will deal with when we come to the Committee of the whole House, is where the term of these commissioners has been taken to six years. A good reason must be given why six years and then with an extension of three years. So, somebody can be a commissioner for nine years. We will amend that when we come to the Committee of the whole House and give them a renewable term of three years. If you give them a term of six years then it should be like the people who are serving six years; like the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP). You serve for six years and then you go home. You cannot serve for six The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I give the first shot to Hon. Obiri Momanyi, Member for Bobasi. Sorry, I had not seen the Leader of the Minority Party’s interest. Having seen it now, the Leader of the Minority Party will have the first shot.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. Let me also take this opportunity to thank and congratulate this Departmental Committee on National Cohesion and Equal Opportunity for coming up with amendments to this Act. I want to give some historical background to this Act, how it came about, why we are where we are and why the court found that some of the provisions in this Act are unconstitutional, which has necessitated these amendments. We all remember that after the Post- Election Violence (PEV) of 2017, there was the committee that was put in place to try and resolve the issues. Part of Agenda Four items was how to bring Kenyans together; cohesion. Therefore, it became necessary to have a commission that would bring cohesion and integration in the country hence the birth of the NCIC. However, we all remember that at that time, a section of Kenyans was not so comfortable with the Executive, the PSC and even the Office of the President. Therefore, it was felt that to constitute such an important commission that would bring Kenyans together and deal with cases of hate speech; Parliament then was seen as more representative and a bit more balanced. That is why the responsibility to constitute this commission was placed on the shoulders of the Parliament of Kenya. The courts have since determined that Parliament doing recruitment and again vetting the same recruitees is actually a contradiction and something that compromises the separation of powers. If you look at the current Act the way it is, it says the process of recruitment starts with the Clerk of the National Assembly putting out adverts whenever there is a vacancy like it is now and after that, then applications are submitted to the Clerk of the National Assembly who would then ask a committee of Parliament, which is the Departmental Committee on National Cohesion and Equal Opportunity, which would go ahead and interview members and come up with 15 The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Order, Leader of the Minority Party. What is it Hon. Maina Kamanda?

Yes, I just want to clarify…

Order, it has to be a point of order not clarification. You remember, Hon. Maina Kamanda that you will have an opportunity to reply. Is it a point of order? You will get an opportunity to reply at the end.

(Suba South, ODM)

Very well. To my right, top on the list is Hon. Ole Sankok David.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I support the Chairman of the National Cohesion and Equal Opportunity Committee. There is the issue of profiling MPs to the extent that they are not able to do anything yet we are given that mandate by the Constitution. It is a high time that the citizens of this country realised that MPs are elected by the people of this country. They are not elected from Uganda or Tanzania. They are elected by the citizens of this country. It is funny that Kenyans trust other institutions more, including Principal Secretaries and Cabinet Secretaries who are handpicked, but they no longer trust and believe those that they have elected themselves. I support the Bill from the Chair of the National Cohesion and Equal Opportunity Committee. It is high time we got that Committee running because even though the politics of 2022 are very far, there already have been a lot of political flare-ups. There have been a lot of high temperatures and voltage. Politics in this country needs National Cohesion and Integration Commission to handle and tone down these early campaigns, so that we can wait and work for the citizens of this country. If the citizens trusted us and Mr. Okiya Omtatah did not take us to court, that commission would have been in place now and would have tamed these high voltage political campaigns and we work for the people until the period set aside for campaigns. There is normally a period set aside for such politics and campaigns. Because we do not have a commission in place to tone down the political temperatures, we are witnessing such high voltage of early campaigns.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I support my brother and friend, Hon. Maina Kamanda, for bringing this particular Bill. Thank you very much.

Shall we have Hon. Baya Yaa?

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I stand to support this Bill. As a country, this has taken two years to get this commission in place. We need to generally look at the laws that we have. Parliament passes laws and they are taken to court and then they are overthrown and we get back again and come up The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Abdullaih Sheikh, Member for Mandera North.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. At the outset, I want to support this amendment on this very important commission. It was wrong in the first place for Parliament to give itself the role of recruiting and vetting. I want to really appreciate one Kenyan, Mr. Okiya Omtatah. This gentleman has done a good job for many Kenyans. He has seen the light and seen that whatever that was going on in the initial stages of recruiting and vetting was unconstitutional. I want to ask for Mr. Okiya Omtatah to be awarded because he has done a great job. Were it not for him, this team would not have seen the light of the day. I want to acknowledge and appreciate one, Mr. Okiya Omtatah, for taking this matter to court and ensuring that the Committee is seized of this matter.

Nevertheless, I also want to appreciate the Committee and its Chair for seeing that this amendment is timely and critical. The NCIC, as it is now, lacks mandate because its term has lapsed and we do not have commissioners in place. We have seen the hue and cry of Kenyans in various appointments to State bodies and foreign service. When I look at the issue of foreign The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Let me go to my left side. Hon. Wakhungu Wamalwa. Hon. Gedi, when Hon. Sheikh was presenting, you looked very excited for some reason. You will get your chance to speak at some point. It is Hon. Wamalwa’s time.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. As I support the amendment, I want to recognise the value added by Mr. Okiya Omtatah as far as oversight in this country is concerned. Mr. Okiya Omtatah was running for Senate under my party of FORD-Kenya in Busia County and the people of Busia can see what actually they missed. We wish him well in his future endeavours. A lot of things have gone wrong and Mr. Omtatah has been on the forefront to correct them. We know very well that there are many Non-Governmental Organizations (NGO) which are funding different Community Based Organizations to help in matters of oversight. How I wish they can see the eye of Mr. Okiya Omtatah. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, the principle of separation of power or talking of checks and balances, from the word go, the process of recruiting these commissioners was very wrong. This was highlighted very well by Hon. Kamanda, who is the Chairman. I want to The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Wamalwa, you are anticipating debate. You have said it yourself.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

As I conclude, we needed this commission like yesterday. There is a lot of hate speech in the country, which has resulted in divisions such as kieleweke and tanga tanga. Freedom of expression should not be hate speech. It is important that hate speech should be prevented. We want to see this commission being functional as quickly as possible. When Hon. Kaparo was appointed the Chair, I was one of the people who opposed it. Now that he has left office, I have not seen anything meaningful. We know very well that many people here have been going around making hate speeches, but nothing has been done to them. An example is the case of the presidential candidate that Hon. Duale referred to. We have many cases of hate speech, but no action has been taken against people who make it. That is why hate speech continues in this country. As we move toward election in about three years’ time, we need this commission in place with clear deliverables. We need it to be institutionalised so that we can see the deliverables. They cannot continue using taxpayers’ money yet people continue making hate speech. We also need a clear definition in the Act of what hate speech is. I have read the Act and it does not have a clear definition. I hope the Chair is listening. We do not have clear definition of hate speech. We need to amend the Act to put in place the threshold of hate speech. Some people use it at their discretion and, with different political formations, to frustrate others. We should not allow that gap of discretion. I have looked at the Act and it does not have a clear threshold of hate speech. Somebody can abuse it. So, it is important for the Committee to look at the issue of hate speech so that we get clarifications and not just having it in an amorphous way.

I thank the Committee for the good work they have done and request Hon. Members to support this wonderful Bill. With those remarks, I support.

We go to the far end to have Hon. Dennitah.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

Before she speaks, what is your point of order?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I have been waiting here but I have noticed that my sister has disappeared. I do not know what is happening with the system. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

That can be checked. From what I see on my screen, you are not there. So, I direct that that be checked. I have seen you seated there for some time. Not all Members seated here have registered interest. Sometimes some Members just want to listen. But that is noted. Before I give a chance to Hon. Dennitah, let us have Hon. Angwenyi, a very senior Member.

Thank you Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to comment on this important issue. First, I want to thank the Committee that has developed this Bill. Second, I want to stress on the point raised by the Leader of the Minority Party that we seem to be legislating here against ourselves and former Members of Parliament. We are our own worst enemies.

Three, this Bill should have come much earlier because for a period of about two years, we have not had an effective Commission. As you can see, the 2022 elections have taken root. Wherever we attend church functions, funerals, or barazas, we must talk something about 2022. In the process, we give hate speeches. As my colleague, Wamalwa, said, let us define what hate speech is. Is calling people washenzi hate speech? Is calling people names hate speech? Let us look at that and include that definition in this Bill.

The Bill has improved the system of appointing these people so that we get people of integrity who can work without fear or favour.

With those few remarks, I beg to support.

Hon. Dennitah, the Floor is yours.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to support the amendment. I also thank the Chair, Hon. Maina Kamanda.

If ever there is a time that we need cohesion in this country, it is now. I am surprised that it has taken over two years to have such a critical body that seeks to help us put aside our historical injustices and have equity.

I am happy with the amendments. There is nowhere in this country or in the world where you can have commissioners or officers in place without a clear law that guides how the people are to be selected and appointed. It is good that our lawyer out there, our pro bono lawyer in the name of Okiya Omtatah has tried to put sense into this country. Okiya Omtatah speaks for very many of us in this country who otherwise would not have that opportunity to speak and bring such amendments to this House. He requires special recognition. For many of us who come from minority communities, we know what it feels to be discriminated. We know what it feels for people who come from minority communities in Kenya to fight over meagre resources in this country and recognition.

I want to challenge the President. This provides a rare opportunity for the Head of State to ensure that the commissioners who will be brought to the House are learned men and women who come from minority communities. Article 54 of the Constitution talks about issues of persons with disabilities. People with disabilities in this country have for a long time been forgotten. An opportunity presents itself in the name of commissioners who will come to this House for approval. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Very well. Before I give this chance to the next person, I recognise, in the Speaker’s Gallery, Nembu Girls High School from The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, this is a rare opportunity for me to add my voice to this very important Bill. At the outset, I support it. I want to support it because firstly, we have lost a lot of time. Since the lapse of the last Commission, the country has lost a lot of time in terms of putting into place a new commission. I must also hasten to add that even though I was not particularly impressed by the work of the former Commission in dealing with issues that fall within its mandate, I still believe that the framers of our Constitution had a purpose for creating this particular Commission. I am saying this because as we speak, a lot of commotion is evident in the political field. Already we are seeing drums of war being beaten from all over in terms of 2022 elections. It is, therefore, critical that we have the National Cohesion and Integration Commission in place. I hope that the proposals contained in Hon. Maina Kamanda’s Bill in terms of identification of those who will fill the positions in this commission will go a long way in ensuring that we end up with only men and women who merit the positions. The problem in this country is that, once persons have been appointed to such offices, they disappoint Kenyans. In the past, we have seen a clamor from people demanding that we get foreigners to fill such positions. It is for a reason because most Kenyans who have found themselves in those positions have been a disappointment. The National Cohesion and Integration Commission is very important that the men and women who will end up in those positions as commissioners should be beyond reproach. I want to plead with Members that we adopt these amendments to enable the selection panel get down to work, and to ensure that we have this Commission in place as soon as possible. This will enable the Commission to rein in on hate speech which is a serious threat to cohesion and unity in this country. I beg to support. Thank you.

Before I get to my right, shall we have Hon. Akoth.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity. You know sometimes the challenges of technology… I have been here for quite a while and since I was preoccupied, I only realised now that my system had gone dead. I think we need to look at the systems around here because they keep misbehaving. I want to congratulate Mr. Okiya Omtatah for doing a good job. I know he has a love- hate relationship with Members of Parliament. There are times we love him for what he does and there are times we hate him in equal measure. I think that is the kind of love-hate relationship that the House has with civil society. But the civil society, just like Parliament also has an oversight role in terms of the work of the Executive. Therefore, I want to say in terms of the history of this Bill that we passed it in the Tenth Parliament. I was a Member of the Justice and Legal Affairs Committee and I chaired the subcommittee that brought amendments to this Bill. So, I worked very intimately on this Bill. I can say that the thinking around this Bill at that time was that our country had just come from a very bad past where we had killed one another. We had lost over 1200 people and many people had been displaced. There was also a lot of negativity in the country. So we brought this Bill when Hon. Martha Karua was the Minister for Justice so that we could bridge that gap. The The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I can see an intervention from Hon. Wanyama.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I just wanted to bring to your attention the fact that given the urgency of this Commission to be put in place… We have heard very many comments about the matter. As a senior member of the Committee, I was just appreciating the fact that…

I was just requesting that you call the Mover to reply so that it gives Members better time to incorporate the issues. I think it will be good enough. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

Hon. Wanyama, you seemed to be doing well until you said that you are senior. I could tell from the murmurs that Members were not happy about that statement. But I want to speak to that. When a Member rises and asks the Speaker to call upon the Mover to reply, the Standing Orders provide that the Speaker shall put that question forthwith. It is not for me to determine. It is the House to determine whether the Mover should be called upon to reply. So I will put the Question.

Clearly the “Nays” have it. In that case, we will have a few more Members speak to it, but I think it is good to appreciate what Hon. Wanyama had raised about the urgency of this matter. I am thinking, and I cannot give direction on this. Members who have registered interest can speak and then we will call upon the Mover to reply. Hon. Jesire, you have the Floor. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I also want to support this Bill.

Order! What is it Hon. Gedi? You seem to have pressed the intervention button. Hon. Jesire, please resume your seat. She is on a point of order.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I do not intend to interrupt my good friend, but looking at the mood, can we reduce the time to two minutes so that some of us who want to contribute can get time?

Hon. Gedi, all what you would have to do is to persuade the Members. When you want to reduce the time, it is done before the Members speak to that Motion. Maybe the Members are convinced by your proposal, Hon. Gedi. So let us see, starting with Hon. Jesire.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. You know I have been wondering about people talking about “the urgency” of the matter and yet for two years we have not had a commission. One hour cannot make a big difference. I am supporting this and I thank Hon. Kamanda for it. I am, however, thinking of something on the membership of the Commission. The membership of the commission is 12 people. They will be making decisions on behalf of the commission. My thinking is, from what we know through Mwongozo and other practices sanctioned in other Bills, the membership of a body should be an odd number, say, nine or 11. This particular body has 12 members. I am wondering, when they differ on matters and they need to vote, what will happen? I think the membership is not in order. So it should be looked at, if we will do things as per other alignments that we have had in other Bills. The other thing is that as much as people are supporting the term of office to be six years, I have some reservations. I am imagining we have had a commission which is not performing at all and then we give them six years. It is even longer than the presidential term. So, in case this membership does not perform and we have given them six years, what happens? It is a question we need to discuss. All other boards in this country serve for three years, which are renewable. When we put this one to be six years, it could also be expensive for Kenyans, especially if it turns out that the membership is not performing as expected. So, we need to debate this matter further. I want to support what Hon. Mbadi said about a member of the Judiciary. When we put the Judiciary in the cohesion commission directly like that, what happens when we have a matter to take to the same body? It means we are taking membership to its own other part of the Judiciary. I do not know. It is something I feel we should look at more clearly. Of course, I know they are matters that should be discussed. I know that the victims of this commission, most of the time, are politicians; either the members of county assemblies or we the Members of Parliament. We are actually the people who are likely to speak in a manner suggesting that we are dividing this country. We are victims. When you are a victim and you are kept aside and people discuss you always, what happens? You also need to be given an ear. As much as we are saying sitting Members of Parliament must not be members of this Commission, I do not think it bars those who are no longer Members The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Jesire, what are those names that would kill you. You die and you do not die. Do not answer that. It is for reflection.

Top of the list to my left is Hon. Osotsi.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to also support this Bill.

This Bill seeks to amend Section 17 of the parent Act on matters to do with procedures of appointment of commissioners and qualifications for appointment. It also seeks to extend the term of office from three to six years. As alluded to by the Leader of the Majority Party, I think we will have to interrogate this issue of extension of term from three years to six years because we need to understand the basis of that extension.

This Bill was enacted in 2008 before the promulgation of the new Constitution. If you go through the parent Act, you will realise that there is need to re-look at the entire Act because it is not properly aligned to the Constitution of Kenya. This is especially Article 10 that talks about national values. Issues of equity, inclusivity, regional balance and national unity should be reflected in this Bill.

The parent Act talks a lot about discrimination and hate speech, but it does not talk about real issues that are reflected in our national values under Article 10. This Commission has been one of the toothless commissions. It cannot bite and the reason why this is happening is because there is no independence. This is the case and yet Section 26 of the parent Act says that this Commission shall not be subject to the direction or control of any other person or authority. If you look at the process of appointment, you will find that out of the 12 commissioners, seven go through a process that involves appointment by the President. But if you look at the process of their removal, you will find that it is very easy. So, these people can never be independent. I think the Committee should have also proposed that those people should have a security of The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Kimani Kuria, you have the Floor.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I congratulate Hon. Maina Kamanda for bringing this great Bill. However, on the appointment of the commissioners, much has been emphasised on the issue of achieving regional balance. An Hon. Member has raised the issue of representation of people with disability in the commissions, but may I raise the voice of the young people in these commissions.

All Government appointments that have been made, be it in parastatals or corporations, no youth in this country has been appointed and yet, we have very many competent and educated young people who can serve on those commissions. The issue of excluding MPs in those commissions is also wanting.

There is a perception in this country that, once you become an MP, you either fail to think, stop thinking or stop being a professional. This House needs to correct that and set the record straight that even before we joined politics, we had careers. We have engineers, The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

It is only Hon. Kuria who has taken the earlier advice from Hon Gedi that Hon. Members be magnanimous in terms of time. Nevertheless, there is no direction or order from the Hon. Speaker. It is just that we seem to have a critical matter and an urgent one.

Let us have Hon. Oduol.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I would like to support this Bill. I would also like to indicate that, as a member of the Committee, I would not take much time. I want to inform the Hon. Member that one of the reasons why the Committee reduced the length of experience from 15 years to a lower figure was in recognition that we have in terms of diversity of our people who are young and qualified. We did this with the specific objective of opening the dimension for those who are young. What I want to highlight, as I support this Bill, is the urgency and the context in this country where we are operating in an environment where there seems to have lots of factors which seem to divide us. Sometimes, maybe, it is because people do not necessarily understand each other. A number of times, it is because we have inherited to some extent the practice of being negatively ethnic and engaging in prejudicial discriminatory behavior. It is for this reason that we, as a Committee, did not choose to look at the overall amendments but, in particular, we ensured that we responded immediately to addressing the important principle of separation of powers. We also want to ensure that, as a House, we are able to allow the Commission to be put in place. As I conclude, I want to highlight to the Members that as we look at the proposed amendments by the Committee, we should be very keen and perform our very important mandate of ensuring that we have respect for diversities and all the different categories defined in the Constitution namely, gender, youth, persons with disabilities and any other marginalized groups. In a way, we should ensure this is something that is taken care of. Finally, I know Hon. Chris Wamalwa indicated that we should open up and have the church sitting in the panel. But the Committee seems to have a balance and seeks to ensure that everybody is included. It will be a tall order seeking to determine that we include the church whereas in Kenya we know we have many other people organised of faith. This will mean we start opening up beyond asking which church, what to do with our brothers and sisters of the Islamic faith and all the others who are of different faith.

I hope we can pursue the House to look more at keeping the Judicial Service Commission (JSC) because it brings in a balance and comes from the Judiciary. We should not open up a Pandora’s box that would create greater division than the kind of cohesion we want. With this, I The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.

The Hon. Nyoro Ndindi, what is out of order?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I rise under Standing Order No.95. Since I came to this Chamber for this Session, we have constantly been repeating ourselves. We have exhaustively debated this matter. Therefore, I rise to request that the Mover be called upon to reply.

Order, Hon. Members!

Let the Mover reply.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I beg to reply.

Hon. Kamanda, you are an old hand at this, and I just want to help you if you will allow me. Before your contribution in replying, you may wish to donate a minute or two to any of the Members who are anxious to speak. That is before you begin, if you so desire.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I donate two minutes each to Mhe. Gedi and Hon. Tonui.

So, we shall have Hon. Gedi and Tonui taking two minutes each. Proceed Hon. Gedi.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I thank the Chair of the Committee and the entire Committee for bringing the Bill to this House. This Bill is timely because a Committee cannot vet and do interviews for Commissioners.

I support this Bill because, as a country, we have moved on from where we were in 2017. Going forward, we want this country to embrace unity. We want to see a commission with qualified commissioners who are firm, committed, cannot be used or become sycophants to any quarters. We are approaching a referendum soon and the census is also coming. So, we need to have leaders who are decisive and who do not use hate speech to divide Kenyans.

Concerning the appointments, I want to correct the impression that one section of the community is being appointed. That is not true. The recent appointments of ambassadors that we saw were promotions. Promotion means the President has the right to appoint or extend terms of ambassadors. From the region I came from, we are glad we got three ambassadors in the recent parastatal appointments. My county got six…

Hon. Gedi, I have heard you speaking for your region. You should be speaking for the country of Kenya. Hon. Tonui proceed. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I want to thank the Chair for donating two minutes to me. I want to support this Bill and thank Omtatah for standing for Kenyans. When we make unfair laws in this Assembly, there are people out there who protect the public from those unfair laws that we make. That is because they are many. This includes the one on Housing Levy. So, Omtatah should be congratulated for this. What is proposed in this Bill is the fairest way. This is because there will be a panel to interview the commissioners and then forward the names to the President to nominate and forward the names to the National Assembly for approval. This is the right procedure. The way we were to do it before was unfair. On the issue of security of tenure, I believe this should not be the case because we do not want a rogue Commission. On the issue of a six-year term, I believe this is not fair. Even elected Members are given only five years. No one should go beyond the five-year term. I believe this need to be relooked into. Regional balance should be a key factor in appointing the commissioners so that the whole country can be considered. I know Hon. Gedi has talked about ambassadors. I wish to state it was very unfair because Bomet did not get even a single one and we rarely get. So, we have accepted that any presidential appointment may not come to Bomet and we should move on. Thank you very much for that little time.

Hon. Kamanda, proceed.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I beg to reply. Let me thank the Members who have contributed to this Bill. Members are complaining that they are also supposed to be in the commissions. I want to tell Members that before we were taken to court, in the list that we had shortlisted of 54 persons, this Committee had even proposed more than six former MPs to be in it. This is because we believed those are leaders who understand the issues of the country. Having lost an election does not mean that you cannot serve somewhere else and, maybe, be useful in another area. On the eight commissioners, I can assure you that if the President brings people from one community, the Committee will reject it. That is because, at the end of the day, it will be brought to our Committee. If they are eight, I think the President, in his wisdom, will go to the previous provinces and maybe pick one from every region and give eight people from those regions and include a person with disability. Even in the last shortlisting we did, we had shortlisted people with disability. We cannot agree as a Committee to have eight members and we do not see either one or two. If need be, they can even be all if possible. If it is one or two, the Committee will appreciate and thank the President. I thank the Members.

One of the areas I want to stand with Members is where we keep on saying that Members of Parliament cannot be Members of County Assembly (MCAs). I agree with Members. We will move an amendment as a Committee so that we say state officers. I agree with Hon. Mbadi and my senior here, Hon. Angwenyi. It will not be repeating the words “Hon. Members and MCAs” as if they are the only people who are state officers. Many of those other people are state officers. It is good to put it and we are going to move an amendment as a Committee when we come to the Committee Stage so that we clear that bit.

On the issue of hate speech, we will work very closely with the new commission that will be put in place. You can now see it is more than nine months without having the commission. This will not be the last amendment. This is just an amendment to bring the commission in place. There will be other amendments. Even the Senate is doing an overhaul of that amendment. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Members, I direct that the next necessary steps on this particular Bill be undertaken at such a time as the matter will be set down for consideration by the House again. I, therefore, direct that we move to the next business.

Hon. Opiyo Wandayi, you were on the Floor and you had done five minutes. You have 55 minutes to finish.

I will definitely not take 55 minutes as it is my practice that I do not talk much. I will stick to the point. I will pick it up from where I left when I was moving this Motion. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I just want to reiterate that the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) is really on track in terms of delivering on its mandate not only to this House, but to the people of Kenya. In fact, as a Committee, we are almost setting a record in terms of the number of reports we are generating and bringing to this House. My Committee has committed itself to ensure that the county governments have no excuse whatsoever in terms of equitable sharing of national revenues between the county governments and the national Government because, in the remaining few months of this session The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Proceed, Hon. Kimani.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I rise to second the Motion as moved by my able Chairman. From the outset, I would like to recognise the importance of the National Assembly in carrying out its role of oversight of not just the expenditures, but also the revenues of the Government of Kenya as outlined under Article 95(4) of the Constitution. This role is further given to PAC through our Standing Order No.205. Without over-emphasizing the importance of the Motion today, this will be used as a basis for the sharing of the revenues between the national Government and the county The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Kuria Kimani, I have enjoyed your contribution immensely. You have told us that we are borrowing and taking the bread from the mouth of our grandchildren, instead of investing in sovereign bonds, so that we can secure their lives. That was really good.

I see interest in this Motion from Hon. Simiyu Eseli, the Member for Tongaren. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to support the Report. I am a Member of this Committee.

As I start my contribution, I would like to quote a few things. One, leadership without integrity is hollow. Wealth without work is theft and that is where Kenya is at the moment. As a nation and community, we have condoned theft, including theft of public funds. We condone it and clap for those who steal. As a nation, our problem is that we did not grow out of the colonial era where it was justified for us to plunder Government resources because they belonged to our colonisers and oppressors. It was a way of resisting our oppressors by plundering their wealth. We gained Independence later and we did not realise that those resources belong to us and are our taxes. Those are the taxes of the mama mboga, boda boda riders and everybody because every Kenyan pays taxes either directly or indirectly. We did not realise that. So, we have continued to plunder Government resources without realising that we are actually plundering our resources. At the end of the day, we will remain with nothing to plunder. That is a mentality that needs to be changed among Kenyans, so that they recognise that we rely on public resources to build hospitals, pay workers’ salaries, put drugs in hospitals and build our roads. We need a change of mind-set as Kenyans. We must realise that we must protect and utilise public resources properly so that they are useful to the rest of Kenyans. The kind of money we talk about, if you were to go to villages and told them that our Budget is over Kshs2 trillion, they will ask what kind of figure that is. Those of us who have lived through the Moi and Kenyatta era, the Budget had not surpassed Kshs300 billion when Moi left office. We were not talking about trillions. I do not know whether people know what a trillion means. If we put that money to proper use with proper accountability, I am sure we will transform this country. The leaders talk about transformational leadership. Let us manage our resources properly. How do we do that?

We have oversight institutions. Parliament, of course, is the apex. The Auditor-General is very key for our performance and yet, his office has not been facilitated enough. Imagine they now have to audit 47 governments in addition to the national Government and other public institutions. But they have not been empowered enough to get resources and have enough personnel to do a proper job. The Constitution is very clear that apart from the usual audit, they should also do performance audit and value for money audit. In the 10th Parliament, I had an opportunity to visit Canada where they do value for money audit. They do not do the usual book audit of papers because papers can be cooked. We should empower the Auditor-General’s Office to do performance audits always. That is why a road in Kenya costs much more than one in Tanzania done by the same contractor. If we did performance audits, we will get rid of that.

Another thing we should worry about is the current trend to discredit oversight audits. There is a current trend to discredit the Auditor-General’s Office. That is very dangerous. We should not allow it to happen because that is what drives the oversight activity of this Parliament and, indeed, PAC is the ultimate oversight authority that actually uses the Auditor-General’s reports to come up with a report like the one that was tabled by my able Chair. So, we should avoid any move to try and discredit the Auditor-General’s Office.

Another thing I want to talk about is the Recurrent Vote. On the Recurrent Vote, apart from the salaries, the rest of the money goes to waste in a lot of travelling and on many other things. You find that there are huge amounts of money in the Recurrent Vote for seminars and The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Eseli, what happens to our Committee on Implementation which is supposed to follow up on the votes we have? What has it done about the reports? The buck stops with us as a House. Our processes must make sense and be effective. The Chair of PAC and his Members may wish to have a conversation with the Committee on Implementation so that we see how effective they have been able to follow up.

Yes, Hon. Nyoro.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. Indeed, I am a member of this Committee and to follow The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Proceed, you still have a minute.

That is taxpayers’ money from a certain office along Harambee Avenue to spew hate on Sundays on the pulpits. We must move away from this issue of being told this is a confidential vote or a security thing and you cannot audit. You are telling me I cannot audit a vote when some of the leaders and our colleagues will come here and boast about money they are getting from Government coffers to do campaigns over the weekend.

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Hon. Ndindi, now your time has run out. Well spoken. I hope that I will see you in the frontline of fighting and bringing this revolution against corruption in this country.

Hon. Members, the time being 1.00 p.m., this House stands adjourned till today at 2.30 p.m.

The House rose at 1.00 p.m.

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