Hon. Members, I wish to introduce to you, a delegation of Members of the House Business Committee of the National Assembly of the Republic of Zambia, who are seated in the Speaker’s Row. The delegation comprises: 1. The Rt. Hon. Nelly B.K. Mutti, MP. – Speaker and Leader of Delegation 2. The Hon. Stafford Mulusa, MP. – Government Chief Whip 3. The Hon. Brian Mundubile, MP. – Leader of the Opposition 4. The Hon. Stephen Kampyongo, MP. – Whip for the Patriotic Front Party 5. The Hon. Jay E. Banda, MP.

– Whip for Independent Members of Parliament 6. The Hon Kampamba Mulenga, MP. 7. The Hon. Clement Andeleki, MP. 8. The Hon. Roy Ngulube

– Acting Clerk of the National Assembly of Zambia

The delegation is also accompanied by six other staff from the Office of the Clerk and the Executive. They are in the country on a benchmarking visit to our Parliament, specifically to share best practices on planning, facilitation and conduct of the business of the House, and the workings of Committees generally. On behalf of the Hon. Speaker of the National Assembly and that of the entire House, I wish to welcome them to the National Assembly. I also wish them fruitful engagements during their stay in the country. Thank you, Hon. Members.

Hon. Members, pursuant to Standing Order 41(1) of the National Assembly Standing Orders, I wish to convey a Message from the Senate regarding the passage of the Division of Revenue Bill (National Assembly Bill, No. 9 of 2023). The Message conveys that on Thursday, 20th April 2023, the Senate considered and passed the said Bill in the form passed by the National Assembly without amendments. You will recall that on Tuesday, 21st March 2023, the National Assembly considered and passed the said Bill without amendments, following which I referred the Bill to the Senate for consideration. The passage of the said Bill, by the Senate in the same form passed by the National Assembly, concludes the bicameral consideration of the Bill in accordance with Article 110 of our Constitution.

I will now proceed to present the Bill to His Excellency the President for assent in accordance with the provisions of Article 110(5) of our Constitution.

Thank you, Hon. Members.

Hon. Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table: 1. Reports of the Auditor-General and financial statements in respect of the following institutions for the year ended 30th June 2022: (a) Parliamentary Service Commission. (b) Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. (c) State Officers House Mortgage Scheme Fund – State Department for Housing and Urban Development. (d) Ministry of Petroleum and Mining. (e) Special Economic Zones Authority. (f) Kenya National Bureau of Statistics. (g) National Government Constituencies Development Fund. (h) Parliamentary Joint Services. (i) Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission Staff Mortgage and Car Loan Scheme. (j) Kirinyaga University. (k) Consolidated Fund Services – Pensions and Gratuities - the National Treasury. (l) Public Service Superannuation Fund for the eighteen (18) months period. (m) Garissa University. (n) Murang’a University of Technology. (o) Political Parties Fund. (p) Office of the Registrar of Political Parties Staff Mortgage and Car Loan Scheme. (q) Business Registration Service. (r) Karatina University. (s) Roads Annuity Fund – State Department for Infrastructure. (t) Dedan Kimathi University of Technology. (u) DeKUT Enterprises Company. (v) Consolidated Bank of Kenya Limited. (w) Development Bank of Kenya Limited. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

(x) The Nyeri National Polytechnic. (y) Kenya Reinsurance Corporation Limited. (z) State Officers and Public Officers Car Loan Scheme Fund – National Treasury. 2. Report of the National Government Constituencies Development Fund Board for the Third Quarter of 2022/23 Financial Year. 3. Quarterly Economic and Budgetary Review Reports for the First Half of the Financial Year 2022/23 from the National Treasury and Economic Planning.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Let us move on to the Chairperson, Select Committee on Decentralised Funds Accounts.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table: Report of the Decentralised Funds Accounts Committee on its consideration of the reports of the Auditor-General on the financial statements for the National Government Constituencies Development Fund for twenty-six (26) constituencies in the counties of Mombasa, Kilifi, Kwale, Taita Taveta, Lamu, and Tana River, for financial years 2013/2014, 2014/2015 and 2015/2016. Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Social Protection, are you ready?

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table: Report of the Departmental Committee on Social Protection on the ratification of: 1. The Hague Convention on Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction. 2. The Hague Convention on Jurisdiction, Applicable Law, Recognition, Enforcement, and Co-operation in respect of Parental Responsibility and Measures for the Protection of Children. 3. The Hague Convention on International Recovery of Child Support and other forms of Family Maintenance. Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Chairperson, Departmental Committee on Social Protection, you may now give your Notice of Motion.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to give notice of the following Motion: THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Departmental Committee on Social Protection on its consideration of the ratification of the Hague Convention on Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction; the Hague Convention on Jurisdiction, Applicable Law, Recognition, Enforcement and Co-operation in respect of Parental Responsibility and Measures for the Protection of Children; and, the Hague Convention on International Recovery of Child Support and other forms of Family Maintenance, laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 25th April 2023 and, pursuant to the provisions of Section 8 (4) of the Treaty Making The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

and Ratification Act, 2012, approves the ratification of the following Hague Conventions: 1. Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction. 2. Jurisdiction, Applicable Law, Recognition, Enforcement and Co- operation in Respect of Parental Responsibility and Measures for the Protection of Children. 3. International Recovery of Child Support and other forms of Family Maintenance. Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Hon. Gideon Mulyungi, Chairperson Select Committee on Decentralised Funds.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to give notice of the following Motion: THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Decentralised Funds Accounts Committee on the consideration of the Reports of the Auditor-General on the financial statements for the National Government Constituencies Development Fund for 26 constituencies in the counties of Mombasa, Kilifi, Kwale, Taita Taveta, Lamu and Tana River for financial years 2013/2014, 2014/2015 and 2015/2016, laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 25th April 2023.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

There is also a notice of Motion by Hon. Owen Baya, Member for Kilifi North.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 33(1), I rise to seek leave for the adjournment of the House for the purposes of discussing a definite matter of urgent national importance regarding the mysterious deaths of people in Shakahola area in Kilifi County.

Many lives have been lost in Shakahola, Kilifi County, as a result of the radical religious teachings by a controversial pastor named Paul Nthenge Mackenzie. It is reported that Pastor Nthenge Mackenzie, through his purportedly skewed radical religious teachings, has been manipulating and indoctrinating locals to undertake extended periods of fasting in order to meet Jesus. A number of those people are reported to have died in the process, including two children whose deaths in March 2023 were linked to the pastor. Shockingly, several bodies have also been discovered in what we suspect to be secret graves that are used to bury starved followers of Pastor Paul Mackenzie on his 800-acre ranch in Shakahola. The bodies have since been exhumed by the authorities. The pastor has been arrested twice, that is, in 2019 and in March of this year, in relation to the deaths of children. However, he was released on bond and both cases are still pending in the courts. The residents of Kilifi County had urged the court not to release him, decrying the spread of cults in other regions of the country, but their plea was not heeded. As a result, Hon. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Deputy Speaker, over 93 bodies believed to be of followers who fasted to death have been exhumed in his ranch as at today Tuesday, 25th April 2023.

Appreciating the freedom of worship, there is need for the Government to enact laws and policies that prohibit and discourage unlawful practices that are not in line with conventional religious teachings and beliefs of a community in order to uphold the security of its citizens. It is for this reason that I seek leave for the adjournment of the House in order to deliberate on the matter so as to chart the way forward and propose possible lasting solutions. I thank you Hon. Speaker.

I see that there is overwhelming support. The House will stand adjourned at 4.00 p.m. Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence of students from Kithengi Day Secondary School in Manyatta Constituency, Embu County; Sigot Secondary School in Mosop Constituency, Nandi County and Aga Khan Primary School in Kisumu Central, Kisumu County. They are all seated in the Public Gallery.

I am told I was not loud enough about the Adjournment Motion by Hon. Owen Baya, Member for Kilifi North. The Motion shall be debated at 4.00 p.m. We have very little time to 4.00 p.m. Everyone will debate for five minutes each, which means many Members will get an opportunity to deliberate on this matter.

Hon. Wanjiku Muhia, Member for ‘Ki-pi-pi-ri’.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. It is Kipipiri. It is a tongue-twister, indeed. Pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 44(2)(b), and as the Chairperson of the Committee on Regional Integration, I rise to make a statement regarding the unfolding security situation in Sudan. As Members may be aware, Kenya and Sudan are both members of the regional bloc known as the Inter-Governmental Authority on Development (IGAD), a regional body that has increasingly become a critical component in Eastern Africa’s integration efforts.

We are extremely concerned by the fighting that has broken out in Sudan, leading to the loss of hundreds of lives, massive destruction of property and the displacement of many civilians. The fighting is in its 11th day, posing serious humanitarian crisis and the shutdown of vital supplies like provision of water, electricity, food supplies and medical services in the affected regions. As a House, we recognise that peaceful coexistence and stability in the Republic of Sudan is key to the social and economic progress of the entire region. There is urgent need, therefore, to contain the situation, because we would not wish for this to be further exacerbated by war in an IGAD member State, thus destabilising regional peace and security. With the escalating conflict, foreign countries have started evacuating their nationals from Sudan. I urge our Government to also speed up the emergency evacuation operations and The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

humanitarian assistance to Kenyans working and living in Sudan. Further, I urge Kenyans in the country and other parts of the world to register with Kenyan Embassies nearest to them for ease of assistance during such occurrences. As a House, we appeal to IGAD, the African Union (AU), other regional bodies and the international community to expedite dialogue and mediation mechanisms towards ending the ongoing conflict as soon as possible and restore peace, security and stability in Sudan.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I am done with my Statement. As we are aware, communities or regional blocs come together fundamentally because there is need to create peace and stability in the regions. If one of us, as a member State from either Eastern African community, IGAD or the larger African Union, is not in peace, then the whole region is affected. As such, it is necessary for the House to make its voice heard and be on record that we advocate for peace and stability in one of our neighbouring States. I thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Hon. John Murumba, Member for Tongaren Constituency. You did not want to speak to this. Did you? Could you press the intervention button if you want to speak to this particular matter? Member for Matuga, Hon. Kassim Tandaza.

Ahsante sana, Mhe. Naibu Spika. Namshukuru Mwenyekiti wa Kamati ya Uwiano kwa kuleta suala hili katika Bunge, tukijua kwamba katika nchi ya Sudan kuna Wakenya wengi. Kuna Chuo Kikuu cha Sudan ambacho hutoa udhamini wa masomo kwa watoto wengi sana Afrika nzima, hasa hapa Kenya. Mara ya mwisho nilipoangalia, kulikuwa na wanafunzi zaidi ya 1,000 katika chuo kikuu kinachoitwa International University of Afrika, Khartoum. Hao ni watoto ambao walipatiwa udhamini wa masomo, tiketi ya ndege, na makaazi ya bure. Ni wazi hawana uwezo wowote kujisimamia wakati janga kama hili limetokea. Hoja hii ni muhimu na ya dharura ili tuone ni vipi Serikali ya Kenya na vitengo vyote vya kidiplomasia vinavyohusika na usalama vitaweza kuwanusuru Wakenya wote walio kule wasidhurike. Sio wanafunzi pekee yao. Tusisahau kwamba saa hii tuna shida za kutosha hapa Kenya. Kuna Hoja ambayo imetolewa, ambayo itazungumziwa baadaye, ya maafa ambayo yametokea Kilifi. Itakuwa jambo la kuhuzunisha tukiwa na maafa mengine ya kiasi kikubwa katika nchi ya kigeni kama ‘Sudan Kusini’. Naomba Serikali na vitengo vyote vinavyohusika kuona kwamba hatua za haraka zinachukuliwa kuwanusuru Wakenya na suluhisho kupatikana katika ngazi za kimataifa. Wakati mapigano yanatokea, hakuna yeyote anayenufaika. Imefika wakati Bara la Afrika liwe bara la amani na si bara la vita. Serikali ichukue hatua za dharura. Nashukuru aliyeleta Hoja hii. Naunga mkono. Ahsante, Mhe. Naibu Spika.

Member for Tarbaj, Hon. Hussein Barre.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I wish to make my contribution.

Hon. Barre, give us a minute. There is a point of order by Hon. Wanjiku Muhia.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. Nothing is out of order. I am just giving critical information. We are speaking about the Republic of Sudan, not the Republic of South Sudan. The Republic of South Sudan is in peace. Thank you.

Hon. Hussein, you had the Floor.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I wish to make my contribution to this important and timely Statement. Sudan is a neighbour and a very important Member of IGAD. We have a number of students in Sudan. Myself, I lived in Khartoum for a while. I have been getting calls from students in Khartoum who are seeking The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

evacuation. I join my colleagues in supporting this Statement. No effort should be spared in resolving the conflict in Khartoum. In the meantime, as a Government, we should do all that is possible to rescue our students from there. There are over 2,000 Kenyan students in Khartoum who are crying for our help. Let us spare no effort in rescuing those students from that war. Thank you.

The Member for Siaya County, Hon. (Dr.) Christine Ombaka.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. I support this Statement because Kenyans are suffering in Sudan, which is known to be a war zone. Kenyans have lost their lives there before and they are still losing their lives. They are desperately calling for help. This is the time to show the world that we care and look after our citizens who reside outside the country. Life is important and we must be responsible in bringing our people back home. Thank you.

The Member for Kipkelion East, Hon. Joseph Cherorot.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker for giving me the opportunity. I support the Statement by the Member for Kipipiri. As we talk, several lives have been lost because of the ongoing war. That war is not only about the Sudanese people, but also foreigners from different countries like Kenya and Somalia who live there. If the war is not contained immediately, it is going to extend to other countries. There was a terrifying video that was going round. I ask the Government to evacuate Kenyans in Sudan. A number of them were brought in yesterday. However, this requires joint efforts from other countries. I support the Statement and encourage the Cabinet Secretary for Foreign and Diaspora Affairs to contact and visit Sudan. Thank you.

The Member for Turkana East, Hon. Nicholas Ng’ikor.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this important Statement. What is happening in Sudan is inhumane. I come from nearby Turkana County which borders South Sudan, which was part of the Republic of Sudan. Our people are suffering in Sudan and South Sudan. We want the Government to come in and save our people who live in Sudan. What we see in the media happening in Sudan is terrible. We want our people to be evacuated safely to Kenya or to the nearby country, that is, South Sudan. I support this and ask the Government to act with speed and save our people in Sudan.

Hon. John Waweru, the Member for Dagoretti South.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I want to thank the Chairperson of the Regional Integration Committee for bringing this Statement. Africa has been here far too many times. Whenever this happens, two things happen. One, the international community - especially beyond Africa - take advantage of such a flare- up to put their foot in Africa and exacerbate the situation further. Two, Africa can step up and prove that it can resolve its own issues. This is a great opportunity for us to take advantage of the second scenario. Kenya has an advantage by first being geographically close to Sudan. Secondly, historically, Kenya has been known as a mediator. The Kenyan Government needs to step up and lead the mediation efforts so that we can mobilise the regional and continental bodies and the African Union. For the first time, Africa can resolve its own issues without involving the people who have traditionally benefited from such conflicts, especially our friends from the West and the far East. They have always taken advantage of such conflicts to rip the resources in this continent. The Kenyan Government needs to step up and save the lives of the Kenyans who are in Sudan. This is possible because we have no other business…

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Martha Wangari, the Member for Gilgil.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I also join my colleagues in congratulating Hon. Wanjiku Muhia for bringing this important issue to the Floor. She has a grasp of regional issues, which is important in the region. As a country, what we can learn from this is that peace is delicate. We must always guard our peace in this country. More importantly, I want to speak to the issue of evacuation. Some people were evacuated yesterday. I hope that the Ministry of Foreign and Diaspora Affairs, especially the newly created State Department for Diaspora Affairs, will keep up in ensuring that information is relayed out here. I have seen them on social media. This is so that those who are stranded in Sudan, especially those who are offering Islamic teachings… The population of students in Sudan is very high. Those students are calling for evacuation. I pray that the Ministry of Foreign and Diaspora Affairs, together with the Ministry of Defence, will get those Kenyans home and ensure that they are safe. More importantly, we should support the President in his role as a mediator in IGAD. We should also support proper mediation so that the fighting sides can prioritise life and peace in that country. If Sudan remains unstable, it will affect all of us in the region. Thank you.

The Member for Funyula, Hon. (Dr.) Wilberforce Oundo.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I also congratulate the Member for Kipipiri for bringing this Statement that highlights the dire situation that our citizens find themselves in, in the Republic of Sudan. Conflicts can erupt anywhere. They are always with us all the time. However, the hallmark of a nation is the ability to go through the conflict and hold the country together. What is happening in Sudan is a classic case of historical injustice which had been swept under the carpet. They have been festering and have now erupted. It is a call to all countries within the region that whenever they have conflicts, they must make all efforts to resolve them.

We urge the Ministry of Foreign and Diaspora Affairs to move with speed and evacuate our citizens in that country. Kenya is a very big country that has resources that should enable it to go over and use them to bring our people back. It will be such a shame that we lose any life unnecessarily in the Republic of Sudan and yet, we need those lives and resources to come and build the nation.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Thank you. I have been informed that many of the Members who have logged in want to discuss the Shakahola killings.

Yes.

We can move to the next order.

Hon. Members, I stand guided. We had proposed the Question.

I now call upon the Mover to reply.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I wish to start by thanking Hon. Beatrice Kemei who brought this issue of sexual harassment of female tea workers in Kericho County to the House. This is an indication that Kericho County has a Member who is very dedicated in serving it. I also thank the Members of the Departmental Committee on Labour for a job very well done. They went to Kericho and investigated the matter. I remember it was raining, but they were very determined to ensure that they were done with the investigations, so that they could write a report which we eventually tabled before this House.

It is important for me to note that when we tabled this Report before the House, it elicited a lot of interest from Members, especially female Members who took time to contribute and support it. In these modern days and time, it is very bad for women to be harassed or exploited sexually. What is happening in the world today? All efforts are put in to empower women all over the world. When we have people who think that women should be exploited sexually for favours, promotion or increment of wages, it is very sad. This should be stopped.

I also support the amendments that have been brought by Hon. Beatrice Kemei because the tea estates should be held accountable, whenever those acts happen in their estates. They should be compelled to ensure that the victims are compensated. It is important for the Government to provide psychosocial support because part of the reason many women are not coming out to report those cases is because of stigmatisation. It is important for those women and even men who are affected to be given psycho-social support, so that they are able to move on with their lives and even become more aware of the working environment around them.

Having said that, I wish to submit.

THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Departmental Committee on Labour on the inquiry regarding sexual harassment of female workers in tea estates in Kericho County, laid on the Table of the House on Thursday, 23rd March 2023 subject to: (a) Insertion of the following recommendations in Paragraph 74 after sub- paragraph (ix) on page 23 of the Report — (x) Where the tea estates are found culpable of acts of commission or omission regarding the sexual harassment of their employees, the The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Government should ensure that the tea estates adequately compensate the victims for the damages occasioned by the heinous acts; and, (xi) The Government should provide psycho-social support to the victims to mitigate the effects of those traumatic experiences and aid them in their recovery. (b) That, the consequential amendments be effected in the Report thereof.

Next Order. APPOINTMENT OF AN EXTERNAL AUDITOR TO THE OFFICE OF THE AUDITOR-GENERAL

Chairperson of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC), Hon. Mbadi.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to move the following Motion: THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Public Accounts Committee on the appointment of a firm to provide external audit services to the Office of the Auditor-General with respect to the accounts of the Office of the Auditor-General and the financial statements for mortgage and car loan scheme of the Office of the Auditor- General, laid on the Table of the House on Thursday, 20th April 2023 and, pursuant to the provisions of Article 226(4) of the Constitution and Section 43 of the Public Audit Act, 2015, appoints M/s PKF Kenya LLP for purposes of providing external audit services to the Office of the Auditor-General with respect to — (i) the accounts of the Office of the Auditor-General for the period 2020/2021 Financial Year and 2021/2022 Financial Year; and, (ii) the financial statements for the staff mortgage and car loan scheme of the Office of the Auditor-General for 2017/2018, 2018/2019, 2019/2020, 2020/2021 and 2021/2022 financial years. The people of Kenya, through Constitution 2010, decided to make a provision under Article 226 requiring that Parliament appoints an auditor to audit the Auditor-General. I am talking about an auditor to audit the Office of the Auditor-General because the Auditor-General has the mandate to audit all Government ministries, departments and State agencies, including State investments. But who audits the Auditor-General? It should be an auditor appointed by the institution that oversees the Office of the Auditor-General, which is Parliament. Very quickly, Members may be interested in finding out how we arrived at PKF Kenya LLP as the auditor to audit the Office of the Auditor-General for 2020/2021 and 2021/2022 financial years, together with the special audits of the staff mortgage and car loan schemes, which have not been audited since 2017 to date. Parliament’s procurement system put up an advertisement in the local dailies as required by law, inviting audit firms which are interested in auditing the Office of the Auditor- General to forward their bids. This advertisement was in the Daily Nation and The Standard newspapers of 16th February 2023. The tender submission and opening date were scheduled for 28th February 2023 at 11.00 a.m. The tender document required interested parties to submit separate technical and financial bids for evaluation. On 23rd February, a tender committee was appointed by the Accounting Officer, who is the Clerk of the National Assembly of the Republic of Kenya, pursuant to Section 78 of the Public Procurement and Asset Disposal Act, 2015, to oversee the tender-opening process.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I am highlighting this background, so that Members and Kenyans can appreciate that the audit firm that has been arrived at was competitively recruited through a tender process. The following eight firms responded by submitting their bids: 1. EKV and Associates 2. BDO East Africa Kenya 3. Kigo Njenga and Company 4. Kiarie Kang’ethe and Company 5. PKF Kenya LLP 6. Baker Tilly 7. Mazars LLP 8. Ambale Ogot and Company LLP I would have given more details, but let me just summarise. I may not be required to go into the details of why the other seven did not qualify or succeed. Only one auditing firm, PKF Kenya LLP, proceeded to the financial evaluation. The rest were knocked out at the technical evaluation stage. There were many conditions. There were preliminary or mandatory evaluations, technical evaluations, financial evaluations, and then determination of the lowest bidder. In a nutshell, after all that, PKF Kenya LLP emerged as the most competitive bidder. The other seven have been notified in writing by the Accounting Officer, who is the Clerk of the National Assembly, that they did not qualify. No appeal was made by the seven unsuccessful firms in the allotted time given for appeal. The highest bidder scored 70 per cent. With the approval of this House, the Accounting Officer will now go ahead to notify the successful bidder and award the tender for this audit exercise, at a total sum of Ksh19,088,699 for transparency. That is what the firm will charge for this audit work. We checked and it is within the budget. On Thursday last week, the Clerk of the National Assembly, together with the technical team that did the evaluation, appeared before the Public Accounts Committee. They presented the report to us and the Committee deliberated and adopted the same. I tabled the same in the House on Thursday and gave notice for this Motion.

We want the books of the Auditor-General to also be audited, so that we do not have an Auditor-General who audits others and yet, their books for the 2020/2021 and 2021/2022 financial years have not been audited. With the way we are moving with our work as the Public Accounts Committee, I foresee us concluding the audits of the 2020/2021 Financial Year within the next month. We will come up with a report and immediately we resume after the recess, the report will be tabled. My Committee has already set a target of September this year to clear with the 2021/2022 Financial Year. That will mean that the Parliament of Kenya will have cleared the audits of all pending financial years and we will be waiting for the Auditor-General to now audit the books of the 2022/2023 Financial Year. Stories of how we cannot divide revenue based on current audited accounts will be a thing of the past. As we progress, we will do more special audits as the Public Accounts Committee. We will require the Auditor-General to do more work because the Committee will not have the usual historical backlog of financial audits. We will now be doing special and forensic audits. We will be calling upon the Auditor-General to always do those audits and bring the reports to us. Therefore, we need to allocate more funds to the Office of the Auditor- General. That is what I was driving at. As a House, we need to allocate more resources to that office, if we want to reduce corruption in this country. Hon. Deputy Speaker, I know Members are interested in discussing the next Motion after this one and so, I will stop there. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I beg to move the Motion and ask Hon. Kagombe, who is a member of the Committee, to second. Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to second the Motion. The Office of the Auditor-General is very important. Its operations are hampered by lack of proper accounting due to lack of audit. The company that has been shortlisted or picked to audit the Office of the Auditor-General is known, and has a good reputation. Therefore, I beg to second.

Leader of the Minority Party.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I want to make some short comments on this Motion. First, this is, perhaps, the third time this House is being asked to approve the appointment of an audit firm to audit the books of the Auditor-General. The last two such Motions were moved by myself in the last Parliament. Ordinarily, this is a Motion I would have no issue supporting because the matters are straightforward. Indeed, the need to audit those accounts cannot be over-emphasised given the critical role that, that office plays in ensuring that there is accountability in application of public funds that are duly appropriated by this House. I only have one minor matter, that is, whether due diligence was carried out. We are a House of records and together with the Senate, we form what is called Parliament. There is a report which has been brought to my attention that was done by a Committee chaired by Isiolo Senator, Fatuma Dullo in the Senate. This Report arose out of an inquiry into what is famously referred to as Management Equipment Scheme (MES) in the Ministry of Health. In that Report, Fatuma Dullo’s Committee indicted PKF Kenya— the audit firm supposedly gave advisory opinion to the Ministry of Health when it was conceptualising and initiating MES project. Indeed, the Committee went further to direct the Institute of Certified Public Accountants of Kenya (ICPAK) to undertake disciplinary action against PKF Kenya under the Accountants Act for what it called unethical and unprofessional conduct. That is what is causing me some worry. Is it true that, as a House, we carried out due diligence before arriving at the decision to recommend that firm to undertake that task? I know for sure because in the past, I have moved a Motion to appoint PKF to do this work in the last Parliament but, at that time, this report of the Senate had not come through. Now that we have a Report from the Senate which was approved with far-reaching recommendations against that audit firm, would we be in order to go ahead and ignore all the information contained in that Report and recommend that audit firm? I am not saying yes or no, but I am just stressing this out of duty to the House and to the country. Even as we approve this - which I am sure we may, given the numbers and the mood - we may have to ask ourselves some tough questions whether this is the right way to go. In my view, the money involved is little; it is about Ksh19 million, which is immaterial given the task ahead and the amount the Auditor-General’s Office is supposed to be safeguarding. However, we must get it right. If you want to get a right product, you must get the process right. That is my contention this afternoon as we ventilate on this very important matter. Otherwise, I totally support the idea that an audit firm needs to be appointed to audit the books of the Auditor-General. Thank you.

On a point of order, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Hon. (Dr.) Pukose what is your point of order? The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, the issues the Leader of the Minority Party has raised are very weighty and I think it is very wrong for him to raise them and still support the Report. If what he has raised is true and the HANSARD is able to give us a report on that, then we should not be supporting this appointment. If the other House, which is part of Parliament, has indicted PKF, then the Leader of the Minority Party should be able to lay his points clearly to this House so that the House rejects this bid until we are satisfied. It will be very wrong for us to support it when the other House has queried its credibility! The Leader of the Minority Party should be held accountable for his claims. If what he has said is the case, then he should table a report and we should not debate this Motion until we are satisfied that what we are debating is rightly before this House.

Hon. John Mbadi, Chairperson of the Public Accounts Committee, you can respond.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. The issue that has been raised by the Leader of the Minority Party, Hon. Opiyo Wandayi, is a valid one. We have information that the Report that was proposed at the Senate by Dullo’s Committee was rejected. So, it is not a report that was adopted by Parliament. Two, we counter-checked with ICPAK to confirm the standing of this audit firm and we found out that it is in good standing. I want to remind Members that we have tried three times to get an auditor for the Auditor-General and we have failed. In fact, in 2017/2018 and again in 2018/2019, the tendering process was non-responsive in all the occasions. This is the first time we have, at least, found a responsive tender and the reason is simple. Most auditing firms are shying away from auditing the Auditor-General because the Auditor-General also has some work that he contracts the audit firms to do. Most of those firms prefer the work they get from the Auditor- General’s Office. Therefore, they would not want conflict of interest by auditing the same. It is a problem. I understand because out of eight firms that responded, only this one was successful to the end. The other seven were dropped at the technical evaluation stage. In a nutshell, just to respond to the concerns of Hon. Opiyo Wandayi, first, the Report of Fatuma Dullo’s Committee was not adopted by the Senate; it was defeated for whatever reasons the Senate knows best. Second, we cross-checked with ICPAK and found out that the firm is in good standing. I rest my case.

Leader of the Majority Party.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I rise to support this Report on the appointment of the auditor of the Auditor-General. Indeed, the question has been raised as to who audits the Auditor-General. In parliamentary democracies like ours, it is this House of Parliament that should audit the Auditor-General. Therefore, Hon. John Mbadi is recommending an auditor to audit on behalf of the House because we are the ones who oversee the Office of the Auditor-General. I appreciate the input of Hon. Mbadi with regard to the issue that has been raised by the Leader of the Minority Party. If it is true that the Report by the Senate was never adopted by that House, then that Report is mute. Therefore, we cannot peg such an adverse Report that was never approved or adopted by the House to adversely judge M/s PKF Kenya LLP as an audit firm. More importantly, is the issue that has been raised by the Chairman of PAC, Hon. John Mbadi. It is true, because I remember early 2015, we sought in this House to appoint an auditor to the Office of the Auditor-General, but we were not successful on two occasions. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Opiyo Wandayi has said that when he was the Chairman of PAC, he, indeed, was successful. I think that was the first time that we were successful since the 11th Parliament. As Hon. John Mbadi has stated, it is not an easy thing to do because many audit firms shy away from taking up the work of auditing the Auditor-General. This is because they are looking at more lucrative jobs that come from the Office of the Auditor-General. However, I will address Nancy Gathungu. Now that she will be audited by M/s PKF Kenya LLP, we do not expect that firm to also get jobs to audit other firms or Government agencies for work that is given by the Office of the Auditor-General. This is because that will amount to a complete conflict of interest. Therefore, if approved by this House, as M/s PKF Kenya LLP takes up the job to audit the Office of the Auditor-General, they must know and be aware that they now preclude themselves from auditing any other Government agencies that are under the purview of the Auditor-General. That does not mean that they cannot audit agencies that are not being audited by the Auditor-General. We should not discourage other audit firms from taking up this job. I, therefore, support with that cautionary statement to the Auditor-General, Nancy Gathungu and M/s PKF Kenya LLP. I wish M/s PKF Kenya LLP all the best as they embark on that onerous task of auditing the Auditor-General. Hon. Deputy Speaker, in conclusion, about two weeks ago, I saw the Chairman of PAC prosecute something in the media to do with the fertiliser subsidy. I really want to encourage PAC to work hand in hand with the Office of the Auditor-General to ensure that issues that are of concern, either to the Committee or to Committee Members, are not politicised. As Hon. John Mbadi has severally advised us in this House, we must stop politicising issues that are of concern and important to this country. This will ensure that, by the time the Auditor-General conducts an audit and tables a report before this House for onward transmission to PAC, then it is not seen in any way like it was being done for political expediency. Therefore, even as we carry on with the work of reviewing our audit reports, I want to encourage PAC…

On a point of order, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

It is like there is a point of order from Hon. John Mbadi.

What is your point of order, Hon. Mbadi?

I wonder why the Leader of the Majority Party wants this point of order.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I am on a point of order. I think the Leader of the Majority Party is misrepresenting facts. I only informed the public. I was not there as Hon. John Mbadi. This was a decision that was taken by the Committee following a Motion that was moved by Hon. Nabii Nabwera, and seconded by Hon. Edwin Mugo. Those are Members of my Committee. We adopted it unanimously and agreed that a forensic audit needs to be done on this matter because it had raised issues of concern. We did not want to play politics and that is why we agreed that we were not going to say that money had been lost. We were only asking the Auditor-General to conduct forensic audit. Before I go to bed this evening, I will sign that letter to ask the Office of the Auditor- General to conduct a forensic audit on this matter. There cannot be politics where the Office of the Auditor-General is involved. He knows that when I mean business, I mean business. I want to assure the Leader of the Majority Party and Kenyans that this matter will be prosecuted with fairness, objectivity, apolitically, and settled based on facts. Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

You can finish your point, Leader of the Majority Party. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. The former Leader of the Minority Party was wondering why I was welcoming his point of order, but I am a man who adheres to rules and procedures. As the Speaker has severally advised us, I know that when a Member rises on a point of order, you should take your seat and allow it to be prosecuted. I wish Members like Hon. Ndindi Nyoro, who are here conversing in Kikuyu and Swahili, could listen and learn that when a Member rises on a point of order, they allow them to prosecute it, and thereafter, respond. This is because they also benefit. For instance, I have benefitted from the knowledge of Hon. John Mbadi and Hon. Edwin Mugo at a press conference they held. The message they delivered was on behalf of the Committee. Hon. Mbadi has just told us that tonight before he goes to bed, he will have signed that letter. That is exactly the point I was raising. Our committees, especially the oversight committees, must not be seen in any way to be speaking to the gallery and playing politics with important issues as audit matters. Therefore, procedurally, I would have expected the Committee to have occasioned that letter to go to the Auditor-General to begin audit even before we announce to the world. This is because when we announce to the world, we are probably signalling to those who might be stealing to get ready and start the cover up. You should quietly do your work and occasion the audit so that you can catch the thieves. Hon. Deputy Speaker, I was only saying that and it is good for Hon John Mbadi… I see there is another point of order.

On a point of order, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Hon. Wandayi, what is your point of order?

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I, ordinarily would not wish to interrupt Hon. Ichung’wah. However, I am rather concerned that if we allow the trajectory that he has taken on this matter, it would be tantamount to giving him room to start gagging committees and their chairpersons.

This is because there is no rule, whatsoever, under the Standing Orders, that stops a chairperson, who is the official spokesperson of a committee, from communicating to anyone. This includes speaking to the media and the entire world of their intentions however noble or not so noble they might be. Those cartels have to be put on notice so that they know what awaits them. The cartels who are smuggling in fertiliser and maize have to be put on notice. Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, let me again graciously welcome the sentiments by the Leader of the Minority Party. He is the immediate former Chairman of PAC. The current Chairman of PAC is the immediate former Leader of the Minority Party. Therefore, it is about swapped roles, and they have a lot of learning to do from each other. When he was the Chairman of PAC, Hon. Opiyo Wandayi will tell you that at no time did he ever play to the gallery. I was only giving a cautionary statement. In fact, I have invited PAC’s decision. What worried me is that we might be running to speak or play to the gallery at the risk of signalling cartels in Government to start hiding whatever they are stealing. PAC is one of the busiest committees of this House, and Hon. John Mbadi and Members of that Committee will agree with me. They sit in Room 9 almost throughout the week. They are very busy. However, I want to encourage them that even as we anticipate work from the Auditor-General, we already have work on the maize and fuel subsidies, Kenya Medical Supplies Authority (KEMSA) – COVID heist, and the Telkom heist. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, last week, you saw a gentleman who shamelessly told the country that he was paid a cool Ksh400 million because he is smart. Mind you, this gentleman was so smart to be paid Ksh400 million, assuming the rest of Kenyans are stupid. That gentleman at that time… I hope the Public Accounts Committee, the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning, and the Departmental Committee on Communication, Information and Technology will pick this issue up as they consider their reports. At that time, that gentleman was being paid for being smart in advising Telkom as a Telkom provider while serving as the Chair of Safaricom PLC. You know Government has shareholdings in both companies. Therefore, already there was direct conflict of interest. At that time, he was chairing one board while advising a competitor’s board. Then you say he was not smart and yet, he was smart in stealing. Committees of this House must ensure those thieves are brought to book. With those very few remarks, I can see I am inviting very many points of objection or order. I hope they are not in any way to gag me from calling out the thieves and cartels that looted this country dry in the last regime. This is because, as a House, we shall hold the Public Accounts Committee to account and ensure the cartels that looted this country are brought to book. It will not matter whether they were operating from big offices, smart, moving their money from here to Malaysia, Caymans Islands or Pandora Papers. They must answer. So, this Government must not feed cartels. Hon. John Mbadi, you have an onerous responsibility of ensuring the Public Accounts Committee, Auditor-General, and the PKF audit firm… Ensure the Auditor-General provides meaningful oversight over Government agencies and Ministries. With those many remarks, I wish to tell all cartels that have been stealing from the Government in the past and even those intending to steal under this Government that they are on notice and we are watching them. We are watching the Public Accounts Committee and the Public Investments Committees of this House to ensure they do their work without fear, favour and being compromised by the cartels. Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

On a point of order, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Member for Endebess, what is your point of order?

Hon. Deputy Speaker, without anticipating the next debate which will be at 4.00 p.m. following your ruling, we now have about seven minutes. I stand under Standing Order 95 to ask that the Mover be called upon to reply. We should be through with this Motion considering that the issues raised by the Leader of the Minority Party became hot air and there was nothing much about the Auditor-General or PKF Kenya LLP. So, I ask that the Mover be called upon to reply.

Where is the Mover? Let me put the question.

No! I want to talk from here. Are you displacing my colleague? He is back. Okay. I want to thank the Members who had an opportunity to contribute to this Motion. They are not many. I think they were two, apart from my Seconder. I know this firm is listening wherever it is. I am certain that the Office of the Auditor-General cannot contract... Hon. Deputy Speaker, the Leader of the Majority Party is a bully. He is distracting me and I refuse to be distracted. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

You are protected! Proceed.

Nominated, ODM): I am sure that Nancy Gathungu will not contract PKF again to audit any other Government institution through her office. Well, they can get audit work without the Office of the Auditor-General. I am sure it will be conflict of interest if the Office of the Auditor-General contracts them again. As I conclude, once more, I want to assure the Leader of the Majority Party and the people of Kenya that the Public Accounts Committee is doing its work objectively and not looking at political camps. We are almost done with 2020/2021 Financial Year, the Report will be tabled in this House, and the Members will have an opportunity to interact with it. Cartels whether they were of the previous regimes or the current one should not have any space in this country. Cartels are destructive to the economy of this country and we must deal with them. Hon. Ichung’wah has some selective memory and I do not know why? I have equally communicated the same way I talked about the fertiliser audits. According to Article 232 of the Constitution, the Auditor-General has up to the end of June to audit all expenditure which were made by the previous regime and the current one. So, the Report will come to the Public Accounts Committee as a Special Audit Report. The moment it lands on our table as PAC of the National Assembly, we will transact our business publicly. So, you will see all those issues of maize subsidy. That is why I wondered why committees of Parliament which are dealing with matters which are clearly audit issues are transacting business and summoning or inviting State officers without any audit report before them. I think that is where politics begin. If we have a report from the Office of the Auditor-General, clearly stating what happens with taxpayers’ money, then it will not be political. The people of Kenya are not stupid. They know when John Mbadi is playing politics and when I am professional. Most of the time, if not all the time, I am professional and objective when it comes to matters accountability. So, Hon. Ichung’wah, do not worry. If there were people who carried money sijui to Malaysia, I do not know where you meet them when they were taking the money to Malaysia. You are likely to be convicted for being in conspiracy with people who are stealing our money. This is because you seem to be having too much details about them carrying money to Malaysia and whatever tax haven. I think you must have been participating in those things.

I think you are done.

What is he talking about? He should share the information he has. Why can he not supply it to the State agencies so that those people are arrested and dealt with? Unless, he is one of them and is running ahead of time!

On a point of order, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Yes, what is your point of order? Proceed, if Hon. John Mbadi has finished.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

We hope you will be brief. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

You know, I have been very kind to Hon. John Mbadi when he stood on a point of order. Protect me from the shouting by the Member for Budalang’i. I know it is raining but he must know since the regime of Mwai Kibaki, the people of Budalang’i were sorted on the issue of floods and so he must stop shouting. I was saying when Hon. John Mbadi stood on a point of order, I was very gracious. He must learn to listen and then respond.

Order, Members! Let us talk, one person at a time.

I was saying, when Hon. John Mbadi stood on a point of order, I was gracious to sit down and allow him to prosecute his point of order and respond. That did not allow him the leeway to impute improper motive on something I raised as a Member of Parliament. I do not raise issues on theft that happened in the previous regime as the Leader of the Majority Party, but as a Kenyan and the Member for Kikuyu Constituency. Hon. Deputy Speaker, the fact is that I have raised it and Hon. John Mbadi can confirm from the HANSARD. I said that when these matters arrive before his Public Accounts Committee (PAC), I am ready, willing and available to adduce evidence of those people who were siphoning money from Government coffers to Malaysia onwards to the Cayman Islands. That is why I am challenging Hon. John Mbadi not to get jittery that people are speaking out. We will continue to speak out. I would like you to rule Hon. John Mbadi out of order for imputing improper motive on my person, saying that unless I was siphoning this money together with those people that I know about... This is how he intimidates witnesses not to adduce evidence before committees. I will be the last person to be intimidated, whether it is Hon. John Mbadi or anyone else. I will appear before his Committee and adduce evidence. Therefore, you must protect me from this imputing of improper motive by recklessly just speaking to the gallery. The issue I had raised was about speaking to the gallery, which he is exactly doing now. Hon. John Mbadi, you know you are my junior professionally. I qualified as a Certified Public Accountant (CPA) when he was a first-year student at the University of Nairobi and still pursuing his Section IV. When he was a junior finance officer at the University of Nairobi Enterprises (UNES), I had already qualified as an accountant. You might be older but professionally you are my junior.

On a point of order.

Order, Members. What is your point of order, Hon. Wanjala?

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I do not want to engage the Leader of the Majority Party. He stood on a point of order and insinuated something when he was talking, and he has continued to do the same. He is not just an ordinary Member of Parliament but the Leader of the Majority Party. He is supposed to protect this country especially when it is suffering from lack of money and our economy is down.

What is your point of order?

My point of order is this: Can he name the people who have stolen our money on the Floor of this House? Those who have made us run into these problems, him being the Leader of the Majority Party and not just an ordinary Member of Parliament.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, Hon. Wanjala. I think Hon. Mbadi had completed? It is already 4 O’clock, and we want the Mover to finish replying.

I was about to finish. I think we need not raise temperatures for nothing. To the Leader of the Majority Party, I am ICPAK No. 6101. I wonder whether your number is before 6101. You have never mentioned your number in this House so, please stop lying to Kenyans that you are my senior in the accounting profession which you cannot be. You can be senior elsewhere. The Leader of the Majority Party should now appreciate the position he holds and that he is in Government. If people were siphoning our money, please arrest them but do not come and lament here like you are nobody. You are the Leader of the Majority Party of the National Assembly. If I was in your position, I would not be speaking that way.

Hon. Mbadi, finish moving your Motion.

I beg to reply, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

On a point of order.

What is your point of order, Hon. Milemba? I will come to you Hon. Kimani Ichung’wah.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. This is a House of rules and order. Precedents have also served us correctly. I would wish that you rule on the dressing code of Hon. Wanjala. He has a slightly much bigger than the normal coat that we wear and you know the dangers that such a coat can do in terms of carrying many other items that can be dangerous to this House. Of late there are very many other dressings that appear in this House. This particular one will be very important so that it acts as precedent in the future to decide on such a dress code.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

On a point of order.

Hon. Leader of the Majority Party, what is your point of order?

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I raised a substantive point of order on imputing improper motive on a matter I had raised. When I listened, Hon. John Mbadi neither withdrew nor clarified what he said. We have rules and procedures with a purpose; that never impute improper motive on a Member as you speak, whether in jest or speaking to the gallery. We can only depend on the person sitting in as the Speaker to protect Members otherwise tomorrow I may stand up and call Hon. Robert Mbui a thief just for the gallery. We have seen it in this House, where people say very unpalatable things about fellow Members just to be captured on clips which they will then circulate on media, which is not a problem because it gives one a lot of bonga points. However, when it touches on the character of a person and I take particular reference to Hon. John Mbadi purporting that I would only have information if I was stealing with those people... He knows that if anything, those people wanted to kill me and, therefore, there is no way I would have been stealing with them. They are still following me because I talk about them. Hon. Deputy Speaker, I am begging you to take up your role as the Deputy Speaker and direct Hon. John Mbadi to either withdraw or clarify what he meant by saying that I was stealing with those people in the handshake regime that was being facilitated to steal by you know ‘who and who’.

Leader of the Majority Party, I think he speculated about it that you have more knowledge than others. I do not think he directly …. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, if you listen carefully he said it and I would beg that you order the HANSARD to be printed and tabled before this House tomorrow. If he never said it, then it will rest there. Otherwise, if he said it and from my clear listening to his English, he was imputing improper motive on my person. I do not take that kindly. It is an attempt to intimidate me to never speak about those thieves in the handshake regime. But I will continue to call them out and I demand that I must be protected as a Member of Parliament to call out thieves. That is my work as a Member of Parliament. I can name you, even those of you who are here.

Hon. Leader of the Majority Party, I direct that the HANSARD be provided for review tomorrow. Now we can proceed to the next Order.

Hon. Members, let us be orderly about this. I have clearly stated that in my recollection, you merely speculated about him having immense knowledge. But, unless…

No, we will wait for the HANSARD because one has made another allegation. You are having a back and forth. I have directed that we shall check the HANSARD because both of you are accusing each other. It is better to look at the HANSARD which is neutral. Hon. Member, you do not have the microphone anymore. We shall check the HANSARD. Hon. Wanjala, you will be escorted out.

Hon. Wanjala, wait. Let me see you.

It is allowed even in the House of … We have been wearing it. It has been allowed for very many years when it is cold. Even ladies have been wearing it.

Hon. Wanjala, what is being stated is that a trench coat is not a suit. That is a trench coat. You have a suit underneath your trench coat. No. We are not giving you the microphone. Let us proceed to the next Order.

I have already ruled that we are going to the next Order.

When it is cold, it is allowed. During winter it is allowed.

You are out of order, Hon. Wanjala. Hon. Wanjala, you are out of order!

Hon. Deputy Speaker…

Even shouting from the chair, you are out of order. I have ruled you out of order. You do not have permission to speak.

Out! Out!

Leader of the Minority Party.

Escort Wanjala out! The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

You can name him. Yes, we cannot have a back and forth on this. Owen Baya, we are moving to the next Order.

He has left. Thank you. Hon. Owen Baya, we are on your Order.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order No.33(1), I rise to seek leave for the adjournment of the House for the purposes of discussing…

Hon. Wanjala, you have done the right thing now. So, you are not out of order. But if you continue on a shouting match, you then will be out of order again and you will have to leave the House. It is as simple as that. So, you better be quiet. Okay, Hon. Baya proceed.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 33(1), I rise to seek leave for the adjournment of the House for the purposes of discussing a definite matter of urgent national importance regarding mysterious killings in Shakahola in Kilifi County. Many lives have been lost in Shakahola, Kilifi County as a result of radical religious teachings by a controversial Pastor named Paul Mackenzie Nthenge. It is reported that Mr. Nthenge, through his purportedly skewed radical religious teachings, has been manipulating and indoctrinating locals to undertake extended periods of fasting in order to meet Jesus. A number of these people are reported to have died in the process including two children whose deaths in March 2023 were linked to the pastor. Shockingly, several bodies have also been discovered in what are suspected to be secret graves used to bury starved followers of Pastor Paul Mackenzie on his 800-acre ranch in Shakahola. The bodies have since been exhumed by the authorities. The pastor has been arrested twice, in 2019 and in March of this year, in relation to the deaths of children. However, he was released on bond, and both cases are still proceeding through the courts. The residents of Kilifi County urged the court not to release him, decrying the spread of cults in other regions of the county but their plea was not heeded. As a result, over 50 bodies believed to be of followers who fasted to death have been exhumed in his ranch as at Sunday, 23rd April, 2023. Appreciating the freedom to worship, there is need for the Government to enact laws and policies that prohibit and discourage unlawful practices that are not in line with conventional religious teachings and beliefs of a community in order to uphold the security of its citizens. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

It is for this reason that I seek leave for the adjournment of the House in order to deliberate on the matter so as to chart the way forward and propose possible lasting solutions.

Order Hon. Members, please stop engaging. Member for Funyula, Hon. (Prof.) Oundo, do not excite Hon. Wanjala. Thank you. Yes. Didmus, please. Thank you.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, allow me to give a highlight of some of the key matters arising out of this Motion. The Good News International Ministries is believed to have been founded in Kenya in 2003 by Paul Nthenge Mackenzie and his wife Joyce Mwikamba and operated for a long time in Migingo in Malindi. The church has had various run-ins with the law and has largely been associated with radicalism. In 2017, Mr. Mackenzie and his wife were charged with promoting radicalisation as well as denying children access to healthcare and education and running a school and a television station unauthorised. The latter precipitated the closure of the television station the following year by the Government. In 2017, the then Member of Parliament for Malindi, Hon. Aisha Jumwa, had a run-in and exposed this pastor then when he started his cultic activities. He told children not to go to school. He asked graduates from universities to tear up their degrees and diploma certificates and told them that education is not part of God’s plan. This shocked the nation. Hon. Jumwa stood her ground but because at that time Hon. Aisha Jumwa was associated with the then Deputy President, she was shut up and Mackenzie was allowed to continue until now when we have an Inspector-General of Police who has come out strongly to say the man must now be apprehended. But in 2017, nobody bothered. In 2018, community leaders in Malindi said Mackenzie was dangerous but nobody listened. He ran a television station that taught radical things. I remember the chairman then of the Kenya Film Classification Board pulled down the station but there are people in Government who said the station could go on. They even took him to court but was released. Red flags were raised about Pastor Paul Mackenzie but nobody in the Government listened then. Mackenzie also faced other controversies. In 2019, he was arrested for inciting the public against registration of the Huduma Namba by likening it to the biblical number of the beast 666. Mackenzie was arrested and taken to court. Influential people said he should be released. He was released. Pastor Mackenzie said the Constitution of Kenya was an evil document brought to Kenya by the devil himself. A red flag was raised, but somehow he found his way back again into circulation to continue to preach that gospel. He actually said the Constitution of Kenya is satanic but he was allowed to continue with his work. He has resurfaced again in 2023. This time it is tragic. He is believed to have brainwashed his followers into starvation, yet he eats. He is a father of 17 children, who are eating and feeding well. His wife lives in a beautiful house, eating and feeding well while he tells his followers not to eat because it is time for them to meet Jesus. That is the tragedy of Paul Mackenzie. His 17 children and wife are doing very well and living comfortably. Over 90 bodies have been exhumed and still counting. It is believed by eye witnesses that we are likely to find over 200 bodies buried in that 800-acre farm. This is a tragedy. This is terrorism. This is a man who has the mind of killing people and derives pleasure in watching people die. This is a man who has committed genocide on this soil; a man who should not be walking on the streets of this country. This is a man who should be behind bars. Actually, he is safer behind bars than out. The Judiciary cannot go without blame. Even when red flags had been raised about possible terrorist activities by this pastor, when he was taken to court in March he was released The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

on a bond of Ksh10,000. A magistrate who was told this man had caused the death of two children let him go on a bond of only Ksh10,000. As the discoveries continue, we need to put a stop to radicalisation. For many years this country has invested in fighting Islamic radicalisation, but we are watching systematic radicalisation by people who call themselves pastors. People who just rise from nowhere. Today, Kilifi has one of the biggest cities that is being built by a pastor, a pastor we are all suspicious about his intentions. He has built a huge city, a multibillion city, in Mavueni in my constituency. There are children who go to school carrying white handkerchiefs on their heads as they do exams because they have bought those handkerchiefs from the pastor. They carry water that they have bought from that pastor. They put the water in their ears so that they can learn better.

Hon. Kamket, you cannot be wearing your tie as you walk into the House. You can go back and get dressed first.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, we are entertaining this pastor, but one day, I can assure you, we will have another Mackenzie. Today, children who are sick are being withdrawn from Kilifi County Hospital and taken to that pastor. They are prayed for and die. Women and men taking anti-retroviral drugs are being told to stop. Sick people who are diabetic are being told to stop taking drugs and go for prayers. They die there and nobody is talking about it. I can assure you, we will face another massacre from that pastor. Nobody wants to talk about it. He has a multibillion investment. Where does this pastor get the money from? You go there and buy water very expensively. Cultic activities are increasing and Kilifi has been targeted as the seat of the practice. Hon. Deputy Speaker, as I finish…

What is your point of order, Hon. Mbui?

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker, for this opportunity. I rise on a point of order on dress code in the House. Hon. Didmus Barasa has just walked in and he has a cap which is not religious and not parliamentary. We cannot have double standards. In the last Parliament, Hon. Didmus Barasa was sent out for wearing that cap. In this Parliament, he keeps coming with it. He was sent out by Hon. JB Muturi, former Speaker. It is on record he was sent out. We cannot have double standards. I also want to say that in the last Parliament I wore a jacket similar to the one the Member was told to remove and was allowed to stay with it. I do not know whether the rules have changed. He is out of order and he needs to get out.

Proceed, Hon. Baya.

Hon. Speaker, probably because the pastor is called Nthenge Mackenzie and Hon. Robert Mbui is also called Mbui Nthenge, Hon. Mbui wants to derail my presentation.

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Hon. Chonga, if you press the intervention button, I will see your request. There is no need to shout.

This should be a wake-up call to Kenyans and local administration. In spite of the long chain from Nyumba Kumi to Wazee wa Kijiji and all that, the activities of Paul Mackenzie took place under the eyes of everybody and nothing happened. We have an opportunity as the 13th Parliament to put our foot down and stop the death, massacre and genocide of Kenyans by pastors who purport to preach a gospel that is alternative to the gospel of Jesus Christ. I thank you. I beg to move, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Gertrude Mwanyanje.

Asante, Mhe. Naibu Spika. Nasimama kuzungumzia Hoja hii iliyoletwa na Mhe. Owen.

Hon. Member, I have asked you to press the intervention button, but you are shouting. Get seated. When you stop shouting, I will allow you to make your point of order. You have been badly behaved all afternoon. Proceed, Hon. Gertrude Mwanyanje.

Hoja hii inagusa Wakenya wote. Mhubiri Mackenzie amekua Kilifi karibu miaka kumi sasa. Mimi nashangazwa na Mhe. Owen. Mhubiri Mackenzie alikuja Kilifi wakati Mhe. Owen akiwa Katibu wa Serikali ya Kaunti ya Kilifi. Mackenzie akapigwa vita na Mhe. Aisha Jumwa. Leo Mhe. Owen analeta hii Hoja tuizungumzie hapa wakati watu wetu wamekufa na kuzikwa kwa makaburi. Mhe. Owen hajachukua hatua ya kuenda Shakahola kuona kinachoendelea kule. Nasikia aibu sana akileta Hoja kwa Bunge ilhali watu wanafukuliwa kule na hajakanyaga kule kama kiongozi wa serikali iliyo mamlakani.

( Loud consultations )

Member for Kilifi, debate the Motion, not individuals.

Mhe. Naibu Spika, ninataka kukuambia wazi kwamba upetelevu wa kazi ya Serikali iliyo mamlakani imesababisha vifo kule Shakahola. Wapi serikali? Ilikua wapi? Makundi ya ujasusi yalikua wapi? Watu wakae bila chakula, wasinywe maji ilhali mzee wa kijiji yuko, mzee wa Nyumba Kumi yuko, msaidizi wa chifu yuko na chifu yuko? Wapi wajasusi wa Malindi na Magarini wakati watu waafa na kuzikwa bila wao kupeana taarifa kwa Serikali? Serikali imelegea katika utendaji kazi na ni lazima nizungumzie watu wa kwetu. Kwa nini haikujulikana watu wanakaa pale Shakahola? Hakuna taarifa mpaka watu wamekufa na kuzikwa. Leo mnatuletea Hoja, mkiwa upande wa Serikali, eti tuangalie haya. Serikali imekua wapi? Vyombo vya usalama vya Serikali viko wapi na watu wamekufa na kuzikwa? Hatuwezi kukubaliana na hii Hoja. Kuna upetelevu wa kazi. Polisi na wajasusi wanaangalia maandamano ya Mhe. Raila na wanaacha watu wakufe Shakahola. Mnashika Wabunge wa Azimio ilhali watu wanakufa Shakahola na hamjui.

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Mnapoenda kununua mabomu ya machozi ya Azimio la Umoja-One Kenya Coalition Party, watu wanakufa. Serikali haijui watu wa Kilifi wanakufa. Inafaa ichukue hatua ili iweze kuona ni vipi. Mhe. Naibu Spika ni mwanasheria mkubwa. Mchungaji Mackenzie alishikwa lakini hakimu wa Malindi akamtoa kwa dhamana ya elfu kumi. Watoto wawili wamekufa. Serikali imepoteza mwelekeo. Watu wetu wamekufa kule Kilifi. Maiti zimefukuliwa. Kuna makaburi ya inchi mbili. Unataka kuniambia Chifu alikuwa hajui? Je, Mwanachama wa Kamati ya Utendaji ya Serikali ya Kaunti alikuwa hajui kule Magarini na Malindi? Lazima Serikali ichukuwe hatua na iwajibike kwa sababu watu wetu wamekufa. Watu wanakufaje na Serikali haijui? Naibu wa Kiongozi wa Wengi Bungeni ndiye macho ya Rais kule Kilifi lakini hajaenda kuona hizo maiti. Analeta tu Hoja hapa ndani ya Bunge. Hii ni aibu sana kwa Serikali iliyo mamlakani na tunataka watu wetu wachukue hatua. Asante, Mhe. Naibu wa Spika.

Order, Hon. Members. Let us be respectful and allow everyone to say their bit. You can respond when it is your turn. Hon. Ken Chonga will follow after Hon. Osoro and then we will have the Leader of the Majority Party.

Thank you very much, Hon. Deputy Speaker. This is a very sensitive matter that touches on the deaths of many innocent lives. It is time we discussed this matter soberly without blame games. If we, as a country, start casting aspersions, raising issues and talking at each other, it paints us in a bad picture. We will lose the entire thing. If we start blaming each other, then we will start doing it from way back. I have listened to Hon. Gertrude very clearly. She blames the Government, which is okay. If you read and follow the history of Mr Mackenzie, you will realise that he left Malindi or that area about two years ago. Most of these things happened within the handshake Government. So, we really do not want to go that way.

When the Government was focusing on handshake deals and everything about the COVID-19 heist, such things were happening. However, that is not the direction that we, as leaders, should take. We, as a House that makes laws, should ask ourselves how we can sit down and regulate this radicalisation or religious groups that are cropping up. That is more important because it has already happened. We have already seen reaction by the Government, police, Cabinet Secretary of Interior and National Administration and so many rescue missions. People are being taken to rescue centres. That is now water under the bridge. What we should discuss in this House is what we should do to regulate these religious cults that are coming up.

I am surprised because this matter is happening all over, when people choose to believe human beings. John 10:10 in the Bible promises a life in abundance. You do not need a broker to get to Christ. You do not need any person to stand on your way when you are going to Christ as Christians. I do not understand at times why people, even the learned ones, have chosen to be radicalised by people. Some who are not learned call themselves serious titles like “Doctor” but they cannot explain how they acquired those doctorates. It is time for this House to come up with measures. We have the responsibility to regulate these churches and come up with a law. If it means coming up with a particular ministry or proposing an act of Parliament, particularly for these churches or religious groups, then so be it. We can go the Rwanda way where you cannot wake up one morning and open a church, twist your voice and speak as though you have been preaching the entire night. You start saying that you spoke to God last night, this morning and over lunch time, and then make people give you money. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

It was sad to read a story of an air hostess who decided to dispose of her property at a meagre amount of about Ksh7 million. I hear the property is worth Ksh50 million. She took that money to the pastor who was not fasting. Then, she went to the forest to fast, when the pastor was eating. To make it worse, I hear that these people had supervisors and people walking around to see whether they were fasting. There were monitors moving around whipping them to see whether they were fasting. It is wrong. As the Government is recovering the bodies, this House needs to sit down and come up with measures to regulate that.

As I finish, the world should know that there is nothing wrong in owning anything on earth. Psalms 24:1 in the Bible says that the earth is the Lord and the fullness thereof. The world and what dwells therein belong to God. There is an imaginary thing of some people telling others to sell their properties because they belong to the earth. Even that earth belongs to God. It is wrong to radicalise people, especially children. Instead of the Member for Kilifi County raising questions and her voice towards her colleagues, leaders from that County should come up with measures and do away with…

Member for Kilifi South, Hon. Ken Chonga.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. Initially, I wanted to raise a point of order when the Mover of the Motion mentioned that at some point Hon. Aisha Jumwa made a comment about this matter, and that because she was supporting President Ruto, it was neglected. It gives a deviation from how we are supposed to debate this Motion. That notwithstanding, Hon. Deputy Speaker, I am glad that you have given me an opportunity to contribute to this Motion.

I remember I tweeted on this matter yesterday. Honestly, it has been there from 2017. It is on record that Mr. Mackenzie was taken to court in 2017. From that time, the intelligence and security agencies had the responsibility of putting a radar on this person. The same person was taken to court in 2019, and was released on a cash bail of Ksh10,000. Is he working in cahoots with the security agencies? Quite a number of bad things have been happening in Kenya. This is not the first incident that has happened. We have stories of security lapses in those areas where there is cattle rustling. Where are we putting Kenyans in such a situation? I was told that this same pastor is about to be released on bond. This matter has been going on for years in that farm and the Government has not taken any step. It is quite a pity. What Mhe. Osoro and the Mover of this Motion said is quite a pity. The other regime might be blamed because it did not take the opportune time to address this matter. I concur with what the Woman Representative for Kilifi County has said. From when the Government heard this matter, the President made a statement about it yesterday. Is it because the people of Kilifi County are not shareholders in this country? We were told that the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration is in Shakahola today. He has gone to Shakahola one week after this matter was brought to the limelight. Where do we put ourselves?

There is still a large number of people on that land. There are many who are still fasting. We have only seen security agencies exhuming bodies on that land, but we need to do more than that. Eight hundred acres of land is not small. We need a contingent of policemen to comb through that land. I am very sure that there are still many people who are dying on that land. There is no way that the Government can turn a blind eye to what is going on in Shakahola. In fact, if anything, the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration should order a serious contingent of security officers to camp on that land for the sake of those who are waiting to die.

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Hon. Temporary Speaker, the Deputy Leader of the Majority Party has mentioned another church which is within his constituency. I am aware of that church. He did not mention the pastor. It is Pastor Ezekiel. We have been told that Pastor Mackenzie was a follower of Pastor Ezekiel. It is true. As a House, we request that investigators be deployed to that church.

Thank you, Hon. Member. Just for your information, this being an Adjournment Motion each Member will get five minutes. The next chance will go to the Member for Rabai.

Ahsante sana, Mhe. Spika wa Muda. Nasimama kuiunga mkono Hoja hii. Kwanza, ninamshukuru Mhe. Owen Baya kwa kuleta Hoja hii. Kwa niaba yangu na wakaazi wote wa Rabai, ninatoa rambirambi zetu kwa wakaazi wote wa Eneo Bunge la Malindi ambao wamepata maafa haya. Kufikia leo, kuna zaidi ya miili 90 ambayo imefukuliwa kutoka kwenye yale makaburi. Ninakashifu yale mauaji ambayo yamefanyika kupitia kwa Pastor Mackenzie. Dini inaturuhusu kufunga. Kitabu cha Mathayo sura ya nne katika Bibilia Takatifu kinasema kwamba Yesu Kristo alifunga kwa siku arobaini. Dini inaturuhusu tufunge. Kuna aina mbili za kufunga. Wakati ndugu zetu Waislamu wanafunga katika mwezi mtukufu wa

, wanaamkia njaa, wanashinda njaa, na ikifika jioni, wanafungua na kupata chakula. Waumini wa dini ya Kikristo, hususan Wakatoliki, wanafunga kwa kunywa maji na ikifika jioni, wanakula chakula. Niko hapa kukashifu kikamilifu dini ambayo msimamizi wake ni Mchungaji Mackenzie kwa sababu alikuwa anawaeleza waumini wake wafunge bila kula chakula chochote. Kama mmoja wa viongozi wa Pwani kutoka Kilifi, ningependa kusema kuwa ni jambo la aibu siku ya leo kuwa Mama Kaunti tuliyekuwa tunamtazamia asimame kidete na kuungana na wale wote ambao wamepata maafa haya kule Kilifi, leo hii yuko hapa kukashifu viongozi wengine. Hilo ni jambo la aibu sana. Ninaomba Serikali ije na taratibu. Makanisa yote yaorodheshwe ili kila kanisa litambulike. Ninaomba wachungaji wote wakaguliwe na wapewe vibali na Serikali ili tujue wachungaji hawa wanatumia njia na tabia gani za kuzungumza na waumini wao. Mwisho, ili kitendo kama hiki kisitokee tena katika taifa letu, ninaiuliza Serikali ihakikishe kuwa wazee wetu wa Nyumba Kumi na wazee wa mitaa wanalipwa mishahara. Ikiwa wazee wa mitaa na wa Nyumba Kumi wangekuwa wanalipwa mishahara, jambo hili lingekuwa limetatuliwa kabla kufikia pale limefika. Ahsante sana, Mhe. Spika wa Muda. Ninaiunga mkono Hoja hii.

Thank you. Leader of the Majority Party.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I rise to support this Adjournment Motion by Hon. Owen Baya, who hails from Kilifi County. I implore other Members that just like Hon. Ken Chonga has said, this is not the opportunity to point fingers at each other. It is unfortunate that the area Woman Representative opted to use this Motion as an opportunity to attack the character of Hon. Owen Baya, instead of commending him for doing what he ought to do to bring issues of concern to the people of Kilifi to the debating House that can resolve them. I have also seen a few idle minds photoshopping pictures of Pastor Mackenzie with a leader or a Member of Parliament, and saying that so-and-so was this person’s friend. It is cheap. As leaders, we should avoid going in that direction. We are talking about a massacre of close to 100 Kenyans. Worst of all is that the people who have suffered the most under this character are young children. Under this radicalisation, you hear that people were being told to fast together with their children and husbands, and then finally die, so as to be able to meet Jesus. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

It is not just Members of Parliament who are now pointing fingers at each other. Look at our security agencies. The National Intelligence Service (NIS) is pointing fingers at the police. The police are saying that they have done their bit and are pointing fingers at the Judiciary. I am yet to see who the Judiciary will point fingers at, but they will also point fingers back at the police saying that the police did not conduct adequate investigations. That does not solve the problem before us. As leaders, we must dissuade and discourage each other from using opportunities like these that touch on the lives of our people to engage in cheap politics. Around 73 to 75 people – and I am sure that they are still exhuming more bodies – have died in a small village like Shakahola, where there is a chief who is being paid by the Government. When I listen to Hon. Mbeyu ask where the Deputy Leader of the Majority Party was, yet he is from a neighbouring constituency, I wonder. You are the Woman Representative. Where were you? At least the Deputy Leader of the Majority Party has brought a Motion for us to discuss and possibly come up with laws. We must not make this a talk show where we just speak and it ends there. I will challenge Hon. Gertrude Mbeyu or any of us to come up with a law. We should challenge ourselves to come up with laws that will see to it that no more Kenyans are radicalised in the pretext of religion, be it Christianity, Hinduism or Islam. I agree with what the President said yesterday – that, this is a terrorist who should be dealt with as a terrorist together with those who are “perfecting” people as they fast in the bushes. We must also speak to the Government of the day. It is true this has been going on since 2017. Those who were there ahead of you might have been busy using the National Intelligence Service and other security agencies to run after politicians. It is okay for those in office today like Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration, Hon. Kithure Kindiki, to visit Shakahola but we want to see maximum deployment of even sniffer dogs if we are to save one extra life today. If it is sniffer dogs that will traverse the 800 acres of land to save one extra life from these terrorists, let us see that deployment of security forces, all equipment and whatever they will use to save the lives even as they continue to exhume bodies. Hon. Temporary Speaker, I support this Motion and commend Hon. Owen Baya for taking up his role as a leader from Kilifi. I must say it is rather shameful to watch as I sit here what the Hon. Woman Representative for Kilifi was attempting to do, which is to play very cheap politics. I want to beg that we discuss this issue with...

Thank you, Leader of the Majority Party. We will not add you more time. It is an Adjournment Motion and each Member is given five minutes. Leader of the Minority Party, proceed.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, let me once again add my voice to this matter. I see us losing the point, really, because in my view as we speak, there is even no accused person in court, we only have a suspect. I am hoping there will be evidence to charge somebody, have him convicted and probably jailed. The issue at hand is that governments or states anywhere in the world have a cardinal responsibility to protect life and property of its citizens. There can be no higher responsibility for any state than to protect the lives of its citizens. What we are staring at is a case where we have lost now about 100 Kenyans and yet we are being made to believe that the State was caught unawares. It can never be possible that a functioning state can fail to detect murder of this magnitude. I said yesterday, and I want to repeat it here, that what is currently being done by State functionaries from police to whoever by rushing to Kilifi is too little too late. The question I keep on asking myself is: what are they rushing to do in Kilifi? Are they rushing there to go and count the bodies or are they rushing there to go and take photos? If there is failure of the State, then this is it. I dare say that this is unprecedented failure of the State and it appears as if The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

the residents of Kilifi are not equal citizens in this country because if they can be left to die like rats as we watch and as the State watches, then what else can you conclude it to be? I have said before, and let me repeat again, that the police and all the security agencies must get their priorities right. It cannot be that when it comes to chasing and policing politicians, they are at their best but when it comes to protecting the lives of harmless Kenyans, they are nowhere to be seen. I am saying this from a point of knowledge and information. In the recent past, I have had to change vehicles just to try to escape from this idea of being followed by these agents. They are at their best when pursuing politicians, trying to find out where Hon. Wandayi is, what he is doing, whom he is with and what he is saying. That is not the primary role of our security agencies. Therefore, what we expect as a House before anything else is done is that those responsible must take responsibility. Before you run to Shakahola, Bwana Inspector-General of police and the person in charge of internal security, you must take responsibility and the only way to do so is by first resigning. As we speak, we would have expected to see resignations of those who slept on the job but more importantly, we must dig deeper into this matter and try to find out what was the cause of these deaths. We could be assuming it was starvation, but who knows? Somebody could be running a cartel or a network of people who are selling body parts. Who knows? Therefore, we expect that the exhibits will be preserved until we undertake proper post-mortem for us to understand exactly the cause of these deaths. Otherwise, as we speak, we are staring at a failing State. These are the...

Your time is up, Leader of the Minority Party. Member for Nandi, proceed.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this weighty matter that has been brought to the Floor of this House by Hon. Baya. It is a sorry state to see not just people dying but hundreds of people dying out of starvation. I thank the Member for having taken the bold step to even speak about it. This particular matter is not only traumatising but it is also exposing us as a country. I want to pass my sincere condolences to the people who lost their loved ones though others have not been identified. This is a wake-up call to our community and to the leadership that you have heard and where most Members have been pointing fingers. The welfare of the people of this country is dependent on every leader and leadership is not bestowed on certain people only. Leadership and security as they say, starts with you at home. This is a responsibility right from the people who live in that village, right from the administration in that village and the political leadership. Everyone should be held responsible for the same. This matter has drawn my attention to specific issues. The first issue that we must talk about and address, is the issue of regulation of these particular entities. Regulation of the churches has evolved over time. Previously, when I was a young child and what I read in history, the churches used to have a well-structured body that used to regulate the number of churches and the type of churches that we could have in this country. I have read and grown in a time where the church had a clear stand, clear structure of its leadership and its regulation. Nowadays, you can wake up, buy a few iron sheets, erect a structure and wear a suit and a tie. I am sorry, but most of the people who run these churches are men. These particular structures are given different and weird names. We failed when we delegated the duty of regulating these churches to societies; that for one to be recognised as a church, then you can just go to social services and register. We need to have stringent measures to ensure that we have better avenues for not only regulating churches, but also checking them.

As we speak today, if I am wrong, if the people of Nandi County feel that they do not want to have me as their representative in this House, then they have a right that is guided by The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

the Constitution to remove me. It is just like when someone commits an offence. All you need to do is report them to the police. But as things are, we do not know who to report to these rogue pastors or churches that are doing funny things. This is a wakeup call. We should come up with regulations for these particular enterprises that keep cropping up every other time. We want to pass our sincere condolences to the people and leadership of Kilifi headed by Hon. Owen Baya. We want to tell them that we are in this together. We will ensure that this will not happen again in future. This is because this issue is already bad, and we will not allow it to get worse.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for giving me an opportunity to add my voice to this matter.

Thank you. Member for Gatundu South.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. First, I want to take this opportunity to thank Hon. Owen Baya for bringing this Adjournment Motion. I have heard people trading blames, but I want to look at it very differently. In my view, this is not about leadership. It is more of a social issue. It is not about the police going to get these people. We do not know how many such ‘Mackenzies’ are out there. And we shall only know when something like this happens. I am concerned about this gullible and vulnerable community. We must work on our social setting such that we are able to protect them. When someone comes to preach and asks you to starve yourself to death, I am sure you will not agree to do that, but we have vulnerable and gullible populations. We must protect them with law.

Any sector is supposed to regulate itself, but when it is unable to do so, then the Government has no option but to come in and regulate it. The church is now regulated by the Registrar of Societies. They do not have a group that is supposed to guide them. They also do not have measures to scold and reprimand those who go against the guidelines. This is a very sad state. We do not even know the end of it. We do not know how many more bodies are going to be retrieved. I want to urge this House to come up with proper legislation that is going to manage and regulate how churches and religious spaces operate. I know it will not be a very welcome move, but we must be bold enough to take that which is not popular. We have to come up with a regulation that is correct and good. This gentleman decided to go and hide in the sleepy areas of Kilifi County. This meant that it took time before the intelligence officers went there to find this problem. People should regulate themselves. As we talk about education, we must teach our people about the boundaries of the church and hypnosis. Our populations should protect themselves against those who prey on them under the guise of going to church, going to heaven and radicalisation. It is very unfortunate that they are radicalising our children. We need to put this in our education system. Socially, leaders should take the lead and ensure that they interact with their people and take care of them. They can then give them direction without leaving them to those who are evil.

I beg to support the Adjournment Motion. I also want to ask the House to come up with a regulation that is able to control the religious space.

Thank you.

Thank you. Nominated Member, Bishop Kosgei.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I wish to use this opportunity to thank the Deputy Leader of the Majority Party for bringing the Adjournment Motion to discuss this particular hurting and emotional issue.

Having listened to commentators in the country on television, and listening to my colleagues in this House, I want to state that this is what psychologists call psychopathy. It has nothing to do with religion. Religion is just an excuse. There is no religion that teaches anyone to murder people in this kind of augur. Scientists have said that a psychopath is a person The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

affected by chronic mental disorder with abnormal violent and social behaviour. This is a mental issue that has affected leaders over in history, both in politics and religion.

I would like to mention a few as we look at this matter today. We had a case of Jim Jones in the United States of America on 18th November 1978. He was a very intelligent man in the 1940s, but in 1978 something developed and he murdered 900 people in the name of religion, including a congressman who had visited them. America did not institute a legislation or a legislative process to contain this. It was discovered as a mental issue.

Twenty years ago, we had another incident in Uganda, Kanungu cult massacre, where someone locked up over 700 people and murdered them in the name of religion. This is a psychological issue. We might end up overregulating if we rush to regulate the religious space. Adolf Hitler also murdered six million Jews. It is said he had a mental disorder. There are instruments of law available in the country to manage such menace, and it only takes responsibility of every individual entrusted with the protection of the society to make sure that they detect this. In the case of Mackenzie, it was not noticed yesterday. It has been there for the last five years. It had been detected, but people took it for granted. It is an appeal that all those who are in charge in the church system should be able to notice whether their ministers are of sound mind, including our social leadership.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I support this. It is a wakeup call for us as a country. We need to use the instruments of law to detect such happenings amongst our society and protect our people from mad people.

Thank, you. Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Thank you. Member for Busia County, Hon. Catherine Omanyo.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. It is ludicrous and inconceivable to hear at this moment and time that we still have not been warned enough. Hosea 4:6 says, “My people perish due to lack of knowledge”. The Bible also warns us in Matthew 7:15 where we are told there will come false prophets. As a leader, I mourn with the families.

These people lost hope in life or in the Government. That is why they rushed to someone like this who is very manipulative, controlling and uses any means to take advantage of our people. The same thing happened in America between 1955 and 1978 by a pastor called James Warren Jones. He did a revolutionary suicidal thing of brainwashing his followers and pretending to protect them from being harmed by the Government. When they knew he was lying to them and started running away, they were murdered. This man is not a pastor he is a devil worshipper or a terrorist who comes in the name of the Lord. To those who are unsuspecting, they believed hoping something good would come out this. That is how they ended up being killed or sacrificed. As Kenyans, we should be sensible and watch out wherever we go. In the churches, we should look at how the people who stand at the pulpit teach us. Is it truly coming from the Bible only with examples from there?

If possible, I want the Government to use a quick response unit and surround that area with emergency services. This is like a massacre or mass murdering that has been happening there over the years. It has now come out and the same person who was arrested before was released. If you look at the bail, he was charged only Ksh10,000. Very many lives have been lost. I think somebody somewhere is sleeping on his job and not taking Kenyans’ lives seriously. We need all the leaders of Kilifi who are seated here and all other leaders in Kenya to teach and enlighten their people. We can talk and say it is village elders, Nyumba Kumi leaders, chiefs or police. Whoever we are pointing a finger at, I think all of us need to know what the small churches which are mushrooming in every village are teaching. Some of these pastors are foreigners and others are all over in the corridors of our streets cheating Kenyans out of their money. This is a greedy pastor and a thief who comes to us using the Bible to gain. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

In the Bible, Jesus lost so somebody else could gain. Why are they gaining and people losing? These are witches, wizards, conmen, thugs and murderers. They are not pastors. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Hon. Member for Kathiani.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for this opportunity. First, I would like to thank the Mover for coming up with this Motion because it is something we need to talk about. As I thank him, I want to mention that he should not have become tribal because he kind of connected me with this, though he has apologised. I was shocked because of the photos we saw of very malnourished Kenyans who were hoodwinked into joining this cult. I was also shocked to see videos circulating on social media of young children who were rubbishing education and even medical care saying it was not God’s plan. Mostly, I am shocked at the number of people buried in those shallow graves. Obviously, all these activities cannot be godly. In my opinion they are purely satanic. When we talk religion, we must be careful not to use the name of God for certain ungodly acts. I have been asking myself, since this started what exactly made Kenyans gullible to this level? In my opinion I realised three things. One, I think Kenyans are desperate. Two, our level of education or training is not very good. Three, the level of poverty. Hon. Temporary Speaker, we must analyse what has been happening because of the problems Kenyans are facing. There are those religious leaders who have been taking advantage of our citizens. If we leave this one that has gone to the extremes, there are very many preachers that are getting rich at the expense of very poor Kenyans. They are hanging on their shoulders and stepping on their backs telling them they will pray for them so they can be prosperous. They are very many in this country and they are getting rich overnight because of that. We have other preachers we see on television who come out purporting to heal people and charge a small fee for it. Every time these things are exposed, it is strange that most Kenyans go to those churches even after knowing those preachers were carrying out a hoax. I am sure most Members have seen a very recent video of a church leader telling people to hold their mobile phones, pray and they will receive M-Pesa in their phones. I was wondering what magic that was. You see hundreds of followers shaking their phones waiting to receive M- Pesa. I think we need to do something about this. My question is: What is the Government doing about this issue instead of complaining? I also want to ask what we, as leaders of the National Assembly, are doing about this? I believe if we sit and think about it, we will realise we should talk to each other instead of talking at each other so that we can come up with solutions. A while back, Her Excellency Ida Odinga talked about regulating those churches. She said there were some churches that were owned by a man, his wife as deputy preacher, their son as treasurer and their daughter as the secretary; it is a family business. She said we need to regulate and ensure people are given an opportunity to stand at the pulpit after getting correct training and with right intentions but she was vilified. Today, as a country, we are regretting. As a House, let us go beyond the talk and look at what laws we can come up with or amend so we can regulate this industry because it is one. Religion is matters of the heart but it is important we protect those poor and gullible Kenyans. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Thank you. The Member for Emuhaya.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, religion and the church have a long history. Religion seems to have come much earlier than the states. The states all over the world have grappled with how to control religion and issues of registration. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

For instance, in France it was very difficult and at one time Maximilien Robespierre introduced a new religion called ‘The Cult of the Supreme Being’ just to try and defeat the church but he was defeated. In America, it was in 1571 when they decided to completely exclude themselves from religion so as to allow religious actions to act. Before I go to our real challenge, even Jean Jacques Rousseau of the French Revolution believed that every man must be very free and freedom for everybody, but still he decried the extent to which religion should be given space. He thought that governments and states must have boundaries beyond which religion must not extend. Our real challenge lies in the laws we have. If you look at Article 32 of our Constitution, it gives immense powers to religions and forms of beliefs that any person may want to believe in. Every person has the right, either individually or in community with others, in public or in private, to manifest any religion or belief through worship, practice, teaching or observance, including observance of a day of worship. If you read the entire Article 32 it gives too much space for operation of religion and it even mentions any beliefs that that a person holds. I think this was a wake-up call. I mourn with the people and families of Kilifi especially the mothers and children who died because they did not know what their fathers believed in, and that their parents believed in a religion that was going to kill them. On my behalf and that of the people of Emuhaya, we want to mourn with the people of Kilifi and ask the authorities to take the quickest possible measure to bring that to an end.

The underlying factor will then be what else we can do after dealing with the Kilifi manifest. Which laws can we put in place to control the religions that are coming up every day? In the 12th Parliament, a Member brought to this House a law that was supposed to regulate religion and every Member of Parliament shied away from it and allowed the matter to die a natural death. The incident in Kilifi has now made religious leaders, who addressed the state yesterday, to believe that there is a need for some form of regulation to control the type of religions, beliefs and practices that are coming up in this country. This could be the right chance for Parliament to make a law that regulates the upcoming religions. When did the rain start beating us? Initially, religious sects and churches were registered through the advisory of the National Council of Churches of Kenya (NCCK) that vetted churches before they qualified to be registered. Today, it is done at societal level and it is easy to register anything, whether as a Community Based Organisation (CBO) or a church, and proceed to manifest your beliefs. This should be a wake-up call for not only the Government but even the House leadership in totality without blame game so that we can address the issue of religious malpractices that are harmful to our people. I thank you. I support.

Thank you. Next is the Member of Parliament for Kiambaa.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for this opportunity to contribute to this Motion. May I state that it is a very emotive issue that needs the attention of the national Government to ascertain its extent…

On a point of order.

What is your point of order, Member of Parliament for Rarieda?

Thank you, Hon Temporary Speaker. I have been queuing here for some time and I perfectly understand that I cannot cut in line. I had intended to raise a point of order on some Member’s contributions but I was not given the opportunity. I am currently queuing to contribute but it is my understanding that there must be equality of arms in this House. Among the last six speakers, I have counted three back-to-back who are our colleagues from the other side and one from this side. Currently, there are also two The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

speakers back-to-back from the other side. I know that during this time there are people crossing over in an unregulated matter, which may be difficult to tell, but you can at least tell by where one presently sits. May I urge that our side catches your eye as often as the other side has. Thank you.

Order Member of Parliament for Rarieda. I wish you were a bit patient but more importantly, I cannot see your name in the queue which I am following. I urge you to be patient. Order Members. Hon. Kawanjiku, please proceed.

Thank you for your protection. I also think he was not in order. Whatever is happening in our country in regard to religion and Christianity is a very emotive issue that sometimes goes out of hand. I, therefore, support and appreciate the Member for Kilifi Hon. Owen Baya, for bringing this Motion to the House for deliberation and discussion. This will enable us know if we need to go to the extent of regulating churches within our country and create a body that will help the Government monitor whatever is happening in our churches. If the Government is not keen on what is happening in those churches and the information that is being fed to the congregants, it will be a national security concern. We call upon the national Government and the Cabinet Secretary, Interior and Coordination of National Government to start checking the information that these so-called pastors are relaying to their congregants. Currently, we are told that the death toll has reached 73 people while 212 are missing. It is a very serious issue that needs intervention from the National Government and NIS. When you consider the manner in which the issue was handled, we do not have intelligence that should be giving this information to the National Police Service. It is a blame game between the NIS and the National Police Service. As Christians, if you look at it the way some of the churches are brainwashing their members, I think it is going overboard and we need to set up a team to look into the doctrines that are being preached and propagated by these pastors. We call upon the NCCK to offer advice to the national Government and Parliament on how we can regulate these rogue people calling themselves pastors while in real sense they are not. There are viral videos showing pastors stepping on their congregants making them unable to walk and shaving their private parts in the name of religion. I think it is absurd and we need to condemn this issue. The Government needs to understand their localities to know what kind of teachings are going on through Nyumba Kumi . It is a matter of national security and in case that someone is radicalising people without the Government’s knowledge it should be considered a threat. I, therefore, support Hon. Owen Baya. We should come up with regulations that will put checks and balances on whatever is happening within our churches. I thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Thank you. Next is the Member for Funyula. Give him the microphone.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I am seated behind Bishop Khamala and I want to make a special plea that you allow him educate us and preach to us the importance of the doctrine of fasting, religion and the path to heaven. As a Catholic, we believe in Mathew 6:16-18 and allow me to read as it is written. “And when you fast, do not chose to become gloomy like the hypocrites for they alter their faces so that their fasting may be apparent to men. I say to you that they have received their rewards”. I am neither a pastor nor a theologist. Therefore, I will not bother to delve into it but the Biblical position on fasting is supposed to bring you closer to God and not closer to the grave. I find it impossible to believe that a human being with proper faculty can be brainwashed The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

to the level of fasting to their death. Even the most radical people on this earth have value for life which starts with your life and the life of your neighbour. The Bible asks, “who is your neighbour”? It is anybody with a breathing soul, whether human or a domestic animal. The level of radicalisation and brainwashing that is being perpetuated by the so-called evangelical pastors, evangelical cults and religion is something that we must look at honestly and seriously as a country. Some of these religions – I want to call them cults – go to an extent of asking their members to contribute the little they have to their pastors yet the members themselves sleep hungry. Many times, we Christians stand accused that we go to church to contribute to buy a car for a pastor but never contribute to take a fellow congregant to church. We cannot contribute to take a child of a prayer group member to school but we are in a hurry to buy pastors – whatever you call them – top of the range vehicles. There are ridiculous cases that Christians must treat a pastor much better than ourselves. It is this kind of brainwashing that has led us to this level. I want to make it clear that this is a deranged doctrine. It is not biblical and as bishop said, it is a psychological problem and not a religious problem. There is no religion that condones death and its followers get gratification from seeing somebody else suffer. We must come to terms with their positions. Article 32 of the Constitution provides for freedom of conscience, religion, belief and opinion. Indeed, that is not an absolute right. The State has got a duty and responsibility to regulate how churches should behave and conduct their activities. There is no reason whatsoever for it to shun its responsibility then hop on a modern helicopter to go to Kilifi to showcase its case. We politicians stand accused. Many of us have glorified religion to a point that we ask congregations during church services to pray for the economy to improve and for the rains to come. This is the kind of seed many of us sowed and this is what we are reaping in this country. It is time we stopped that hypocrisy as it is stated in the book of Matthew 16 and preach the correct gospel. We should tell people the truth and not lies that cause them to visit personal harm on themselves. Thank you.

Thank you, Hon. Member. Member for Rangwe.

I appreciate you, Hon. Temporary Speaker and thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice and the voice of the great people of Rangwe Constituency on this matter. Allow me to empathise with the families that have lost their loved ones. From the reports that we are getting from the media, it is not only one tribe that is affected. There was a case of somebody from Kisumu who went for holy water and fasting. There was also somebody from Kajiado who went for fasting and prayer. It actually cuts across the country. So, this is not a Kilifi matter; it is a matter of national concern. Our progressive Constitution of 2010 provides for freedom of religion. You choose where you want to worship and what you want to worship to the extent that it helps and benefits you. Article 8 of the Constitution provides that there will be no State religion. There is nothing that Kenya sticks to as its own State religion. That adds to the fact that there is freedom of worship. You choose what you want to worship. Article 53(d) of the Constitution recognises the right of all children to be protected from abuse, neglect and harmful cultural practices. On this matter, school-going children have been subjected to abuse. Article 29(f) of the Constitution provides that every person has the right to freedom and security, which includes the right not to be treated or punished in a cruel, inhumane or degrading manner. Religion gives a platform for worship and people to socialise. If you go to church, you can meet friends and while there, you can socialise. I want to over-emphasize that we need The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

religion. We have religious leaders who have contributed immensely to the governance of this country. We cannot castigate all religions. It is unfortunate that there is one or a number of bad eggs that are spoiling the name of other religious leaders. Religion plays a fundamental role in keeping human beings sane. I really do not understand why somebody uses a positive point of human interaction with God to cause death to others. I wonder what a Kenyan – pastor Mackenzie is of Kenyan descent – gains when he sees fellow Kenyans dying. The other day we were talking about school-going children dying on our roads because of accidents. Here, we have somebody who waylays people, sweet talks them, gives them holy water and puts them to death by persuasion. It is difficult to put a charge on this particular individual and his cohort. I want to say with humility that may God visit Kenya and have mercy on Kenya. If we continue like this as a nation, we will be the laughing stock of the great East Africa if not Africa and the rest of the world. I pray for the lost souls. I also pray for pastor Mackenzie because I saw the arrogance with which he was talking to journalists when he was being arrested. Pastor Mackenzie, utalipa ! You are going to pay for the sins you have committed. For the people that you have killed, your grandchildren and great grandchildren will suffer loss. Thank you.

Thank you, Member for Endebess.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker for allowing me to contribute to this Motion. From the outset, I support the Motion of Adjournment by the Deputy Leader of the Majority Party. Our law, the Penal Code, Section 225 on Aiding Suicide says: “Any person who— (a) procures another to kill himself; or (b) counsels another to kill himself and thereby induces him to do so; or (c) aids another in killing himself, is guilty of a felony and is liable to imprisonment for life.” To me, pastor Mackenzie is a criminal that has aided more than 90 people to die. Therefore, he deserves life imprisonment. If the courts release him, the community should take the law into its hands and lynch this man. It is a very serious thing for somebody to brainwash 90 people to commit suicide through fasting and supervise the fast for that purpose. To me, this borders on genocide. You cannot take religion either by cultism, either through sectarianism, churchly ways or mystical ways to force a group of people to fast to death. To me that is a criminal offence. I know that there are churches and church leaders who are doing a good job. We have different religious beliefs. My brother, the Member of Parliament for Lurambi Constituency, Hon. Bishop Titus Khamala, who is a member of my Committee is a good example of a good pastor. He preaches the right doctrine and that is why his congregants have been able to elect him twice to this House. Those are examples of good pastors. But there are others who are brainwashing people through religion and I think they will not even see the kingdom of God. Hon. Temporary Speaker, I know there are many people who would want to contribute. Those are my few remarks pertaining to this important Adjournment Motion. I support.

Thank you, Member for Kimilili.

Thank you Hon. Temporary Speaker for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to this very important Adjournment Motion. We are talking about 90 souls that have been lost but the number can even increase to 5,000 depending on whether we have other mass graves or not. The offence that has been committed by this person called Paul Mackenzie qualifies him to be tried for the offence of genocide at the International Criminal Court (ICC). People have lost their lives in circumstances that they never deserved. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, protect me from Hon. Raphael Wanjala since he is interrupting me.

Member for Kimilili, I think you can tell Hon. Raphael Wanjala is in his best behaviour. So, just continue.

I am properly guided Hon. Temporary Speaker. When Mackenzie began his fake church, issues were raised about his conduct. It was very easy for the Government of Kenya that time to just uproot him then but we allowed this man to germinate into a very huge tree that we are struggling to cut today. We are debating about Mackenzie but we forget that we have another fake man in Tongaren calling himself Jesus. Women have abandoned their husbands to go and make that home their first home claiming that they are living with Jesus and we are not uprooting that man now. Hon. Temporary Speaker, the Government of Kenya has tolerated this type of behaviour for a very long time. It is not just Paul Mackenzie. We have got very many things that begin as small things. As we speak today, the same way the Government of Kenya tolerated Mackenzie is the same way we are tolerating people who are engaging in urban banditry, economic sabotage and anarchy. From today, I advise the Inspector-General of Police and the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Coordination that they should only communicate to these Kenyans through a charge-sheet in so far as this matter is concerned, and in so far as those other people who engage in anarchy are concerned. As a Government, we must deal with criminal activities at the point of germination and not to allow them to grow into monsters that eat into too much of Government resources to deal with it. Today morning, we heard a statement about what is happening in Sudan. The people who are causing havoc in Sudan are known. Even us here, we must have responsible agencies that should be able to identify criminals and arrest them before they execute their criminal activities. The Deputy Leader of the Majority Party, my very good friend, Hon. Owen Baya brought this matter at the right time and he alluded to the fact that previously Mackenzie was being protected by senior people in Government but today the tables have turned. Hon. Owen himself is a senior person in this Government. He has said that the man should be arrested. As I finish, the same way we tolerated Paul Mackenzie is the same way we are also tolerating Hon. Raila Odinga and Hon. Uhuru Kenyatta. These are anarchists, they should be arrested before they germinate into a very huge tree that will terrorise this country. I support Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Member for Malindi. There is no one on his feet, Hon. Raphael Wanjala. Member for Malindi.

Raila hatoki!

Ahsante sana, Mhe. Spika wa Muda.

Raila Odinga...

Hon. Raphael Wanjala take your seat. Member for Malindi endelea . Hon. Member for Malindi, endelea.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Raphael Wanjala, you have been a nuisance the whole afternoon and you are out of order!

Mhe. Spika wa Muda na viongozi wenzangu, kwanza nakushukuru kwa kunipatia fursa hii kama Mbunge wa Malindi ili niweze kutoa hoja zangu kuhusiana na maswala ambayo yanakumba Eneo Bunge langu na Eneo Bunge la Magarini na Kilifi County kwa ujumla. Mwanzo ninatoa risala zangu za rambirambi kwa wale watu wote na familia zao ambao wameweza kupoteza maisha yao kwa sababu ya Pastor Paul Mackenzie ambaye ana itikadi kali ambazo sisi kama wananchi wa Kenya hatuwezi kukubali. Mhe. Spika wa Muda, ninachukua pia fursa hii ili nimshukuru ndugu yangu Mhe. Owen Baya kwa kuwa sisi sote tunatoka Kilifi na ninajua pia yeye ameumwa jinsi ambavyo watu wetu wameweza kupoteza maisha kupitia huyu Pastor Mackenzie. Kitu ambacho kinaniuma kama Mjumbe na kama mama ni ninaumwa na roho nikifikiria ni wanawake na watoto wangapi ambao wamekufa pasipo na hatia. Kuna watu ambao sasa hivi wanatamani uhai, kuna watu ambao wana kiu huko waliko wanataka kutoka huko walipo warudi hapa duniani ili waweze kuona watu wao na kuweza kuangalia familia zao. Inanisikitisha leo hii na ninapinga vikali hili jambo ambalo Pastor Mackenzie amelifanya. Katiba yetu inaturuhusu uhuru wa kuabudu lakini matatizo ni lazima tuseme pale ambapo yalipo. Kuna watu ambao wanajaribu kubadilisha na kupoteza watu kwa sababu ya uhuru wa kuabudu ulioko kwenye Katiba yetu. Si watu wa Malindi au Kilifi peke yao ambao wameathirika. Ukiangalia vizuri, kuna watu ambao wametoka kaunti za Kisii, Kisumu na Taita Taveta. Kwa hivyo, hili ni jambo ambalo limebeba kila Mkenya. Haya sio matatizo kwamba mtu amesoma ama hajasoma. Haya ni matatizo ambayo yanakumba Wakenya wote. Hili ni jambo la madhehebu ambayo yana misimamo mikali. Ningependa kuwakumbusha Wakenya wenzangu kuhusu dada yangu mmoja mrembo sana aliyesoma ambaye anaitwa Esther Arunga. Tulimpoteza dada mwenye vipaji sana kwa sababu ya masuala kama haya. Wakati ule, sisi kama Wakenya, tulinyamaza na hatukuchukua hatua yoyote. Hili ni jambo ambalo haliangalii dini moja. Tukumbuke mashambulizi ya Chuo Kikuu cha Garissa mwaka wa 2015 na maduka ya West Gate. Hivi vitendo vyote vilitokana pia na masuala ya msimamo mkali na itikadi kali zinazotumika kwa dini na ndio wanazidi kupoteza watu wetu.

Kuna dada mwingine, muhudumu wa ndege, ambaye aliacha kazi yake. Ni mwanamke aliyekuwa na pesa zake na kazi yake. Aliacha kazi yake, akauza kila kitu na kupeleka pesa zake zote kwa mchungaji. Hili ni jambo la kusikitisha.

Muda wako umekwisha, Mhe. Amina.

Naomba uniongeze muda.

Siwezi kuongeza muda. Kila Mheshimiwa anachangia huu mjadala kwa dakika tano. Hakuna kupitisha hata nukta moja. Mheshimiwa wa Lurambi, upo kwa kipaza sauti.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I have been waiting for this chance because I am a Bishop of the Cornerstone Ministries. I have been preaching for the last 32 years. I congratulate the Deputy Leader of the Majority Party for bringing this Motion of Adjournment on a matter of urgent national importance. It is a very important issue for us, as the National Assembly, to discuss because it has captured the attention of the entire country. We have people from Lurambi Constituency who have died. We are fundraising right now to bring the bodies back to Kakamega. When I was registering our church, way back in 1996, it was not easy. It took us five to six years to be registered. The NIS was always on the ground doing thorough investigation and The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

trying to get proper intelligence concerning the church together with the people who were applying for registration and our intentions. However, that has been watered down overtime. If you go to the churches and organisations that were registered in the 1990s and 1980s…. Let me not talk about the mainstream churches like the Anglican Church of Kenya and the Catholic Church. Other churches like the Redeemed Gospel Church, Deliverance Church and other ministries that came carry themselves with great integrity because there was a threshold. If you look at the work that is being done by the NIS right now, it is shoddy, in terms of intelligence gathering before a church is registered. It was not easy to register a church during the days of President Moi who was a church man. He had nothing against the church but it was tight. Before a religious organisation was registered, they knew the people who would run the church and agenda before they could put it on paper and license it to operate.

According to the Constitution, there is freedom of worship in Kenya. Honestly, our hands here in Parliament, of the Head of State and all these other Government agencies are tied. The fate of Mr Mackenzie is in the court. Going forward, I propose that we go back to the NCCK. We have religious bodies that should regulate churches. It cannot be regulated by Government. Preaching is a calling. How someone executes that calling is seen when he is out there. For example, I have seen a video where a woman comes before a male pastor. He begins to say, “Receive” on the chest of the woman and she begins to fall. She begins to receive and then she goes “ punguliu” because she has received. How do you arrest that pastor where there is no complainant? Hon. Temporary Speaker, receive! There is so much receiving here.

Hon. Ng’eno is very happy to receive.

We must strengthen NCCK and other bodies so that they can regulate the church. Thank you. Receive!

Bishop, I am not sure what they are receiving. I will give the Member for Marsabit a chance to tell us whether she has received anything.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I struggled to receive the microphone but I am not ready to receive anything else. Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Speaker for allowing me to add my voice to this very important Motion of Adjournment on Mysterious Killings of People in Shakahola in Kilifi County. We are discussing a very serious matter where already over 90 lives have been lost and maybe, many more will be lost. As a country, this is worse than a massacre and the COVID-19 disease that killed people. It did not register that number of deaths within a day. This is worse than cancer or any other killer disease in the world today. We are talking about one person who has exploited people in the name of religion. In today’s world where every human being is working hard to receive eternal life or to be right with his or her maker, others are busy exploiting people because of greed. I watched Mr. Paul Mackenzie’s videos. He looks normal. I am sure that he will be examined and we will soon know whether he is normal or has psychiatric problems. He looks okay. He has exploited many people. He started his church back in 2003 and has been in that practice up to today. How many lives have we lost in his hands? The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Normally, when a church is started, it has many other smaller churches or branches all over the country. It is high time our Government investigates properly to find out where this kind of practice has been happening in the entire country. We have also known that it is not only the people of Kilifi who have suffered in his hands but also many other Kenyans. It is good for us to say that the people who have been disappearing might have suffered in the hands of Mr. Paul. I mourn the people who lost their lives, especially the young people and women who suffered in the hands of this person. As I said clearly, it is purely because of his greed. Allow me to quote a Bible verse because what we are seeing is pure exploitation as a result of greed. In 2 Peter 2:3 the Bible states: “And in their greed they will exploit you with false words.” Those are the same words that Pastor Paul has used to exploit people.

As I mourn with the families of the dead, and as I sympathise with others who have been rescued and are struggling to survive, I also mourn with the family of the woman who lost her life yesterday through a mysterious attack in Marsabit Town. She was a 38-year-old mother of three. For how long will Kenyans bury innocent women and souls who lose their lives at the hands of evildoers?

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I support the Motion.

Thank you. Member for Seme Constituency.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I was the second person in this Chamber. I put my card in early. Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity. This is a national calamity and issue. The people who have died are not just from Lamu or Malindi, but from across the country, even as far as Siaya. Let me start by sending my condolences to these families. We have to look at three issues. First, are mental issues and the mental status of the people who do these things. Second, are the security measures that we should put in place as a country. There is also the legal framework under which churches work. Those are the areas that we should look at. The people doing these things are not pastors, even if they go by the name “pastors”. They have personality disorders. Most of them are psychopaths. They are extremely intelligent and manipulative. This is not only happening in Kenya. There was a case in the United States of America, which somebody was talking about, where 900 people died. Also, in Uganda, over 700 people died. These people device ways through which their followers die. The victims are vulnerable. The perpetrators use a process of indoctrination and mass hypnosis, so that even if you found these people just before their deaths, unless you get rid of the masterminds, the victims will follow them and do whatever they are asked to do. That is the situation we are in. In the American case, they were given drinks and they prayed as they took the drinks to die. In the Ugandan one, they all prayed as they went into church and set it ablaze. They do not even want to be removed from these situations. These psychopaths have to be dealt with. They pick vulnerable people. It has nothing to do with wealth or education. They pick mentally vulnerable people. When people experience severe psychological issues, they become more vulnerable and have to be protected. There is a high prevalence of mental illness in our country and as such, more people become vulnerable to such opportunists. The second issue we should look at is our security systems. Why can such people not be identified early enough? Back in 2017, a children’s officer noticed that children in this region were not being taken to hospital for treatment. That is normally very common. The masterminds detach you from all support systems. The police were aware and nothing was done about that situation. Some of the victims were reported missing. Why is it that when people are reported missing or when they die in this country, nobody takes keen interest to investigate and find out what happened? If these issues had been thoroughly looked into, we The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

would have stumbled upon these details much earlier. How come the State intelligence did not pick up this issue in the village and the entire area? There was negligence on our part in this matter. The next thing we should look at is the regulation and monitoring of churches. Churches are registered under the Societies Act. Should we come up with another Act to regulate churches? How do we monitor what churches do? All enterprises in the country, whether in the health sector or others, have systems that monitor what they do and how they behave. Monitoring churches can help us identify these people. There are pastors who are religious, but these zealots and psychopaths can be identified if we had a system that could pick them out and get them away from the people, even when they pretend to be part of churches.

Thank you, Hon. Member. Your time is up. Member for Matuga Constituency.

Asante, Mhe. Spika wa Muda. Ni kwa huzuni sana inabidi tuahirishe shughuli za kawaida za Bunge ili tuizungumzie Hoja ambayo ingezuilika, endapo sote kama Wakenya na viongozi tungekuwa tumewajibika vilivyo. Nchi ya Kenya inajivunia kuwa nchi ya kidini. Kuna wachache ambao labda watasema hawamuamini Mungu ama hawana dini, lakini wengi wana dini. Tunajua kuwa katika nchi yetu ya Kenya, Wakristo ndio wengi, kisha Waislamu na Wahindi. Imetokea wazi kuwa watu wanatumia dini na maswala ya dini vibaya. Tunamzungumzia mchungaji aliyeambia watu wafunge – ambayo ni fasting – hadi kufa. Sisi Waislamu tumemaliza siku 30 za kufunga. Funga haijui mtu. Funga ni tiba inayotibu magonjwa mengi kama ya kisukari, ya moyo na mafuta mwilini. Funga inakupatia uzima mwilini. Hivyo ndivyo ilivyo katika dini zote. Si Waislamu pekee; Wakristo pia hufunga. Lakini utapata kuwa lengo la watu hawa huwa si kuua hasa, ila ni kujitajirisha kwa haraka. Wanapata nafasi hiyo kwa sababu wengi wetu, hata viongozi, tumepoteza pesa kwa sababu ya kuwapatia pastors ama wahubiri pesa zetu ili ziongezeke kwa ghafla. Si muda mrefu uliopita ambapo kulikuwa na mchungaji mmoja aliyekuwa akiambia watu “wapande mbegu”. Yeye alikuwa haui mtu, lakini alitaka kujitajirisha. Wale wanaotoa pesa wana tamaa ya kutajirika, ilhali tunajua kuwa hakuna njia ambayo unaweza kujitajirisha haraka ikiwa hufanyi kazi ama biashara.

Sasa hivi, tunazungumzia swala la Shakahola. Ndugu zangu ambao walikuwa wanalaumu Serikali kwamba Shakahola ni kijiji kidogo, pengine wangejifahamisha kwamba eneo la Shakahola in ekari 800. Ukubwa wa eneo hilo umekaribia mji mzima wa Nairobi. Kwa hivyo, si vyema kuuliza kuwa askari walikuwa wapi ukizungumzia eneo kubwa la ekari 800 ambalo ni msitu. Huyu bwana alienda pale kama mkulima na ndio maana aliweza kulinunua shamba hili na akaweka bwawa la maji ili kujificha. Kwa hivyo, haikuwa rahisi. Tusilaumiane kuwa Serikali ilipaswa kumjua huyu bwana. Tatizo ni sisi ambao tuko huku nje. Tukiambiwa kuwa kuna mhubiri ambaye anaweza kutufanya tupate fedha haraka, hapo ndipo tatizo lipo. Sidhani kuwa kuna mtu yeyote ambaye, kwa imani yake, anakubali kuwa akijiua ataenda mbinguni. Hakuna kitabu cha Kiisilamu au Bibilia ambacho kinaruhusu mtu kujiua endapo mtu ataweza kuisoma dini yake yeye mwenyewe na kujaribu kuielewa. Mara nyingi ni masuala ya ahadi, kuwa mimi nikipeleka fedha zangu pale nitaombewa niweze kupata fedha zaidi.

Nikimalizia, Bishop, sitamalizia bila kuzungumzia yesu wa Tongaren ambaye yuko huko kwako. Huyu bwana anajiita Yesu na mnamkubali kule, naye ana itikadi kama hizi. Je, tunangojea watu waanze kufa ndio tulaumu Serikali na machifu? Suluhisho ni kwamba Serikali iweze kuorodhesha makanisa na dini zote.

Pili, endapo kuna mtu anajitwika majukumu ambayo tunajua si yake kama Mungu ama Yesu, moja kwa moja aweze kukabiliwa kabla maafa yapatikane.

Asante sana Mhe. Spika wa Muda. Nampongeza Mhe. Owen Baya kwa kuleta hii Hoja. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you. Member for Kisii.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Speaker. Mackenzie arrested, Mackenzie released. It is only this Mackenzie who is being arrested having done a criminal act and being released. Several of these things happen. Yesterday, I was in Kisii for a charity function and I received a plea from a woman whose only daughter was defiled. She reported the matter to the police station and while the suspect is loitering around, the victim and the mother are being investigated. You can imagine. We let go of the culprit and start investigating the victims. This is very wrong.

If we look at the story of Pastor Mackenzie, we realise that several of these pastors come with sweet names like “Pastor Ronny”. When the congregation hears this, they fly high just praising his name, leave alone the name of the church. They also celebrate names of churches like “Well-Wishers Pentecostal Church, Revival” and other funny names. The pastor comes in and tells them “I flew out of the country with my dog, Rambo” and members clap. Those are the things that Kenyans are enticed with. They are brainwashed. They do not think. I saw a video of a woman who was being rescued. She said, “Allow me to die. Pastor Mackenzie said I am going to heaven. Please do not take me to hospital and do not give me food.” I looked at that woman and wondered what kind of weed she had taken. How did this Pastor Mackenzie manage to convince the congregants not to go for medication and to give all they have? We are told in church to “release yourself, set yourself free” and when you are in this mood of releasing yourself, you release everything including your properties. This statement has made people mad. People are also told to receive when touched yet they cannot tell what they are receiving. It is like asking my people in Kisii why they celebrate Female Genital Mutilation (FGM). They will tell you they do not know but they are told they have to go through it. Nowadays, it is not done by the traditional scissors, doctors are doing it. Do you want to tell me that the Government is not aware? The Government is aware of most of these things. Ninety bodies. Where were the chiefs? If you try to collect firewood in the forest, you will be arrested but bodies are found in the forest and people are rescued there.

This is very sad, Hon. Temporary Speaker. People are misusing the church. People are being misled and we are watching. People are killing each other and no one is talking. You report defilement cases at the police station and nothing happens. People get robbed, they report to the police station and then the culprits tell them that they are wasting their time because they will use their money to set themselves free. Mackenzie will use his money to set himself free. We are just talking but Mackenzie arrested, Mackenzie released. Mackenzie released, Mackenzie arrested. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Kaloleni.

Asante Mhe. Spika wa Muda, kwa kunipatia muda huu. Kwanza, kwa niaba ya wakazi wa Kaloleni, kwa niaba yangu na familia yangu nataka nitoe rambirambi kwa familia ambazo zimepoteza watu wao. Hili ni janga la kitaifa kwa sababu hatuwezi kupoteza watu zaidi ya tisini. Huyu Pastor Mackenzie amejulikana tangu mwaka wa 2017. Kwa nini bado ninalaumu vyombo na vitengo vya usalama? Tuko na mabalozi wa Nyumba Kumi, wazee wa mitaa na sub-chiefs ambao kila wakati hupeleka ripoti za ujasusi ili Serikali ijue kinachofanyika. Lakini kwa sababu hatujakuwa na dhamani na hao wazee wa mitaa na mabalozi wa Nyumba Kumi, ndio maana tumefika pahali tulipo. Nchi hii inatawalwa na sheria na Katiba na tunajua katika nchi yetu kuna uhuru wa kuabudu lakini sijaona kama kuna uhuru wa kuambia watu wafe ili wamuone Mungu. Tumesikia Mackenzie yuko na watoto 17 ambao wanaishi maisha ya kifahari. Yeye mwenyewe hajafungwa na hajakufa. Ni rahisi kutoa mfano kwa kitu chochote lakini ni vigumu zaidi wewe mwenyewe kuwa mfano. Angekuwa kweli anataka kuonyesha mfano bora wa watu kutokula The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

chakula ili wafe wamuone Mungu angekuwa wa kwanza kufunga na kufa. Hili ni kosa la jinai na huyu anatakikana kufunguliwa mashatka ya mauaji ya halaiki ya watu kule Uholanzi. Ni jambo la kutamausha kwamba baadhi ya hawa ambao wanajiita mapastor wameona njia ya kujitajirisha ni kufungua makanisa. Ni jambo ambalo baada ya kujitajirisha, wao hutumia pesa zao na kujiweka mbele katika Serikali. Utawaona mahali Serikali ipo wanajiingiza pale wakisema kwamba wao wanaomba lakini wanajificha ili matendo yao ya kinyama na kishetani yasijulikane. Mimi ni Mkatoliki na ninataka kushukuru Kongamano la Maaskofu wa Kikatoliki kwa kusema kwamba muda umefika wa kutunga sheria ya kuangalia makanisa yanayotumika. Kule kwangu kuna watu wanajiita waombezi ambao wameharibu familia nyingi za watu. Anaweza kuja aseme bibi yako anakuroga ama kuna mtu wako mchawi. Familia zinakosana. Ni vipi binadamu wa kawaida anaweza kuuza mali yake yote? Umesikia mtu aliuza mali yake akapata milioni 50 akampelekea pastor kisha akaenda msituni kuomba ili afe. Hili ni jambo ambalo linataka kuchunguzwa. Tunajiuliza maswali mengi ambayo hayana majibu. Huyu pastor mhalifu alipataje ekari 800 ikiwa Serikali haijui matendo yake? Mimi hata sijafikisha ekari tatu za shamba lakini yeye ana ekari 800 ambapo anazika watu ndani ya msitu na watu hawajui. Tunataka mienendo ya wahubiri ichunguzwe. Itikadi zao kali zimeleta maafa katika nchi hii. Nasikia kuna Yesu amepatikana Tongaren. Huyo yesu asiposimamishwa saa hii, tutapata maafa kama haya ya Mhubiri Mackenzie tunayoyazungumzia. Asante, Mhe. Spika wa Muda kwa kunipa muda.

Asante. Mbunge wa Thika.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. First, I thank Hon. Baya for coming up with this Motion, so that we can also speak of other matters that had come to our attention but did not have this platform. People were expecting Mackenzie to be remorseful when he was being arrested. This gentleman has killed over 90, if not 100, people but he does not see anything big about it. He thinks the same way he has brainwashed all those people is the same way he is going to brainwash all of us. Since he has been arrested and released several times since 2017 up to as late as March this year, he does not see anything wrong with what members of his church are doing. People can say Mackenzie is sick. For you to take advantage of people you stay with, you pretend to love them so that they can become vulnerable. That is the only time you can touch their hearts. Mackenzie knew the language these people would understand but he is not alone. If people listen to him that much, it means he has followers doing his dirty job. All those graves cannot be dug by one man. Mackenzie has his foot soldiers who bury people once they die. It baffled me when I saw him being arrested alone yesterday. By last night, 73 bodies had been exhumed. Right now, the number is approaching 100. Kenya Red Cross says the number of people still missing is over 200. These fake clergy are inflicting fear. Second Timothy 1:7 says the Lord has not given you a spirit of fear, but of sound mind. If you go to church and feel that you do not have a sound mind, know you are in the wrong place. There are many other Mackenzies all over. Those who rob people in broad daylight do it in the name of the church. We are not talking about it because we fear being hated by the clergy in our areas. Let us call out those who are not good. The clergy also know the fake ones. They need to call them out by their names. They are thugs, terrorists and murderers. You cannot take young children and vulnerable mothers and tell them tarumbeta iko karibu kupigwa; parapanda ndio hiyo; Mwenyezi Mungu anarudi . And yet you know this is a religious coup. People love God. The people would say that is a new Jerusalem. I do not know what name they have given Mackenzie. Those going there are already vulnerable. They are told to fast together with their children. They end up dead as the pastors watch them. They promised heaven yet Pastor Mackenzie, his foot soldiers and wife The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

are not dead. These people ask questions because of fear. He has inflicted fear in these people to the extent that they are not themselves and they cannot think.

As Hon. Members of this House, if you go back and hear of such churches, call them out. Hakuna uchaguzi 2023; uchaguzi ni 2027. Otherwise, we are going to keep hearing of this. In Thika we had a Wakili …

Your time is up. Hon. Ng’elechei.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker for giving me this opportunity. I appreciate the Member of Parliament for bringing this Motion to us so that we can debate and discuss it. Hon. Temporary Speaker, very soon we are going to categorise religion as one of the emerging threats to security because of operations in some churches and some people like Mr. Mackenzie. Every now and then, we review our security threats. The latest threats to security are climate change, terrorism and cybercrime. Very soon, religion will be added to this list. How can one person, in the name of religion manage to kill all these people? More than 90 people have died because of this. It is about time the Government and the people of sound mind stood and defended these innocent and ignorant people. Some of these followers who just follow blindly are either illiterate, semi-illiterate or desperate. Some of these religious leaders are depressed. Some suffer from mental illnesses. Others are conmen and have criminal records. Most of them have a history of conning people and of doing some weird things. At times, I wonder why people of sound mind fear to confront them. We have many examples of religious leaders who do similar things like what Pastor Mackenzie was doing. People fear to call them out because of fear of the unknown. People are afraid to call these pastors out because they think they are surrounded by supernatural and imaginary powers. When it comes to a point where someone is misleading children, illiterate people and the poor… Some head to these churches in search of solutions to problems. We should find a way of protecting these people who are looking for help but end up in wrong hands. We have many other spiritual leaders doing the same things but today, because we are debating about Pastor Mackenzie, we fear to call them out too. They have led people to misery and from worse to worst. Some leaders brainwash their followers to leave all the earthly things to them for the followers to go to heaven. They do not want you to leave them where you are, but to take them to them. Why do they need them if at all they want is to go to heaven?

You find other preachers telling people to leave their treasures, children, families, work to go and follow them. Some preachers have found a way of swindling people. One of the issues that Mr. Mackenzie should be charged with is swindling and misleading people. He has misled some people, and some children are now feared dead. Some people have even lost their children and properties, and therefore, he should be held responsible.

I just want to urge this House to be at the forefront in calling out whatever is wrong. Let us not fear. I do not believe that there is a supernatural…

Thank you. Your time is up. Member for Kilgoris.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, in this matter of Pastor Mackenzie, I think we should lay the burden on two people. First is the Christian himself. It is very sad that this is happening to the church of Christ. This is because Christ left a very solid church. Unfortunately, there was a split between what became the Catholic and the Eastern Church. Later on, we developed the split from Martin Luther and the huge category of Christianity called Protestantism was established. It is particularly this branch of Protestantism that has been splintering a lot. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

In the early days, there used to be a category of Christians called Defenders of the Faith. We need that category today. Even in those early days, there was a rise of heresay. There were people who were spreading heresay and false teachings about the religion of Christ, and the church had to deal with this situation. It is also true to say that today, you do not hear a lot from the church denouncing the faiths that these people are trying to teach. These new teachings are so hypocritical and they need to be denounced. As Hon. Ng’elechei has just said, part of the real problem is that we have placed some fear in these people. We think that they have some power that they can influence against us. The church must guard the faith because the church of Christ has been used by people to divert themselves from the original teachings. If we can have good teachings of Christianity today as it were in the early days, then these hearsays would not develop. The church needs to stop the so-called Jesus of Tongaren. I am happy that he has not proclaimed to be the Jesus of Nazareth, but he cannot be ignored because of the other reason. The second person to be given responsibility here is the Government. It is true that the Government cannot regulate Christianity or religion, however, it can do something. In 2015, we came up with the Societies (Religious Society) Rules, 2015. Under those regulations, a cleric had to produce a certificate of good conduct, and prove himself to be worth the salt. If we do not have a law that is going to protect members of society who do not necessarily belong to that religion, then people will continue to produce their religions at will. That law required every religion to have a constitution and state their teachings. Unfortunately, perverted religion is on the rise and today, we have psychopaths coming up and calling themselves bishops, preachers and proclaiming a religion that is attached to olive oil that is supposed to perform miracles. I think this religion needs to be regulated by law. I had the advantage of presiding over the security of this country which prides itself to have the best intelligence available. It is inconceivable that this happened under the watch of this Government. I wish Hon. Ichung’wah was here because there is a commonly used terminology ‘former regime’. I want to dispute the use of this term by people belonging to Jubilee Party, because they are the former regime. All of us whether in the former regime or present regime should condemn and prevent this from happening again. Hon. Temporary Speaker, I support.

Hon. Members, I realise the interest in this Motion. I have a problem with some Members like Hon. Wanjala who was not in my list and was getting agitated. I am just explaining to him. Member for Dagoretti South, you are next.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I also want to thank Hon. Owen Baya for bringing this Motion to the House. In the Good Book, the Good Lord tells us “I have come so you may have life and life in abundance.” If these people are preaching the good gospel of the Lord, they would not be preaching death. They would not be leading people to destruction. We are told that the devil comes to steal, kill and destroy. This man by the name Mackenzie is a deranged criminal and should never be referred to as a pastor. I would like to bring it to the attention of this House that if anyone is preaching…

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Order! Order, Member for Dagoretti South! What is your point of order, Hon. Millie?

Thank you Hon. Temporary Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. I am just worried about the comment you have made that there are people who are not on your list. This is because when I checked more than one The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

hour ago, I was about number 20 and I do not know if I disappeared from the list. It would be good for us to know if we are on the list or not so we can do other things. Thank you.

Hon. Members, some of you are on the list. I only cited Hon. Wanjala and called him to see for himself so he does not say I am not giving him a chance. I know the interest from some of you is huge. If we give Hon. KJ time, maybe a few more Members will speak.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I request that you reset my clock and preserve my time. I had said the Good Book teaches us that the Good Lord came so we may have life and life in abundance. If anyone is preaching the good gospel, they will know that the devil comes to kill, steal and destroy. This man by the name Mackenzie is a deranged criminal and must be recorded as such. No one should refer to him in anyway as a pastor. That would be sacrilegious and evil even to men of the cloth like Hon. Bishop Khamala who are practising the good ministry of the Good Lord. It will be an insult to them to be clustered together with a criminal like Mackenzie. The Bible tells us that you shall know them by their fruits. The fruits of this man are evident. So far, 90 lives have been lost and we are digging up more bodies as we go on. When I listen to the conversation in Kenya today, everybody is pointing fingers. It is easier to pass the blame. As a House, we are mandated by the Constitution to attend to all matters affecting Kenyans and resolve them. This House should not kick the can further down the road but do something. What is in our hands is the power to legislate. This House will have to rise up and start legislating on societies, Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs) and bodies being formed in the name of churches. Hon. Temporary Speaker, we have to come up with laws that shall hold people accountable. If they are criminals, they will have to answer to the Penal Code. There is no room for hiding our heads in the sand anymore. It is not only Pastor Mackenzie doing things out there, there are people who are hiding in established churches. We know of people who call themselves bishops but steal land and money. Kiambu is a victim of people calling themselves bishops and running away with a lot of money. I would like to end it but I wish you had preserved my time because the interruption was unfair and rude. The church has to step up. The Swahili say, nazi mbovu harabu ya nzima . Even the established churches and ministries will have to stand up to condemn this act but more so clean up the act in their own churches and ministries because the faith is being lost.

Thank you, Hon. Member. Member for Jomvu.

Asante sana, Mheshimiwa Spika wa Muda, kwa kunipa fursa hii ya kuchangia. Kwanza, kwa niaba yangu na niaba ya watu wa Jomvu, nachukua fursa hii kutoa rambirambi zangu kwa watu wa Malindi kwa yale maafa yametokea. Pili, ninampongeza Mhe. Owen Baya kwa kuleta hili jambo. Kama halingekuwa yeye kuleta hili jambo, hatungeweza kulizungumzia. Nasema kitu kimoja kumhusu Pastor Mackenzie. Hata sijui twaongea stori nyingi za nini kwa sababu ameleta maafa zaidi ya watu 100. Nilipofanya uchunguzi wangu, nasikia alikuja Malindi mwaka wa 2003. Hatujui kutoka siku hiyo hadi wa leo ni watu wangapi ameweza kuua. Yawezekana kuwa ni zaidi ya 500, 600 au hata 700. Kwa hivyo, huyo mtu hafai kuzunguka dunia hii. Ninataka kuzungumzia kuhusu watu kufuata dini sawasawa kwa sababu Matayo 7:7 yasema: “Ombeni nanyi mtapewa. Tafuteni nanyi mtapata; bisheni hodi nanyi mtafunguliwa mlango.” Ninataka kuongea maneno haya nikinukuu Biblia. Hawa wangelikuwa wanafuata Bibilia sawasawa, hawangeweza kudanganywa wafunge mpaka wajiue wenyewe. Jambo lingine la muhimu ni kwamba katika Idara ya Ujasusi, kuna kitengo ambacho kinashughulikia mambo ya trade unions, wanasiasa, kitengo kinachoshughulikia mambo ya dini ambacho wakati wa nyuma watu walikuwa wakipeleka taarifa katika Idara ya Upelelezi The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

kule Mombasa na watu wakafuatwa mpaka Msikiti Musa. Vitengo hivi vyote vimelala. Kile kitengo ambacho chafanya kazi zaidi ni hiki cha kufuata wanasiasa. Vitengo vya ujasusi vyatakikana vijue wafanyibiashara wanafanya nini, waumini wanaoomba wanafanya mambo gani na mambo yote yanayotokea katika nchi. Sikubaliani kusema eti ekari ilikuwa 800 kwa hivyo ni msitu mkubwa hawakujua watu wanafanya nini. Serikali hata msitu uwe ekari 8000, ni muhimu ijue kila doti ya mahali ya nchi. Ukienda kule Lamu, kuna mahali panaitwa Majlis. Ni hoteli nzuri sana. Kuna mzungu mmoja, raia wa Ufaransa, ambaye alikuwa mlemavu. Alipotekwa nyara na kupelekwa Somalia, alisababisha Jeshi la Amerika kuingia Somalia kufuata mtu wao. Kwa hivyo, kutokana na vifo vya watu takriban 100, huyu mchungaji Mackenzie hastahili kabisa kuwa anazunguka na kupewa dhamana ya shilingi 100,000. Jambo hili linatamausha kwa sababu amefanya kosa hilo. Ningependa kuiomba Serikali iende kule na nguvu ndio jambo kama hili lisiweze kutokea tena. Ninaungana na wenzangu kuhusu huyu ‘Yesu wa Tongaren.’ Mimi ninavyofahamu, Yesu hakuoa. Lakini huyu ‘Yesu wa Tongaren’ ana wake wanne. Kwa hivyo, inafaa tumzuie kabla pia yeye hajatuletea maafa. Ni juzi tu huyu ‘Yesu wa Tongaren’ alitaka kusulubiwa na akakimbilia polisi. Tunafaa kumsimamisha kabla hajatuletea maafa kama ya Kilifi. ‘Yesu wa Tongaren’ akae atulie na bibi zake, na watu waende makanisani kufanya maombi. Nawapa pole watu wa Malindi. Ahsante, Mhe. Spika wa Muda.

Mbunge wa Likoni.

Ahsante sana, Mhe. Spika wa Muda. Ninaanza kwa kusema: Inaa Lillahi Wa Inna Ilayhi Raji’un (We belong to Allah and to Him we shall return). Ninasema pia pole sana kwa watu wa Kilifi na Kenya kwa jumla kwa msiba mkubwa kama huu. Waswahili wanasema: “Usipoziba ufa, utajenga ukuta.” Waziri alipoliangazia suala hili, kama tu Serikali ingetilia maanani na kuangalia njia ya kuzuia jambo hili, leo tusingekuwa tunazungumzia maafa ya zaidi ya watu 90 katika nchi yetu ya Kenya. Ni lazima tuangalie zile nyumba ambazo ni za ibada. Zimekuja nyingi sana na zina majina tofauti tofauti. Mhe. Alice amezungumzia wakili Magu ambaye aliua mke wake na kumchoma, kuua watoto wake na kisha kujiua yeye mwenyewe. Hii ni baada ya kuingizwa katika kanisa na mhubiri mmoja aliyefahamika kama Anne Wanjiru. Kwa hivyo, tunapozungumzia suala hili, ni muhimu tujue hivi sasa tuna madhehebu mengi. Tukubali kama Wakenya kuwa jambo ambalo linazungumziwa la illuminati limeingia sana katika taifa letu. Watu wanaingizwa katika mambo ya kishetani wakitumia jina la dini ambalo si kweli. Juzi tumeona mwanamke aliyemkatakata mtoto wake kwa kumdunga kisu na kisha kula viungo vyake vya ndani. Mambo hayo hayakuwahi kufanyika hapo zamani. Ila, lazima tujiulize; tuko wapi? Kama viongozi, ni lazima tuwakaribie wapiga kura. Iwapo Mhe. Owen na Waheshimiwa wengine wa Kilifi wangekuwa karibu na kuwatembelea watu wao waliowapigia kura kila mara, basi jambo hili lingekuwa limejulikana haraka. Haiwezekani maiti zaidi ya 200 ziweze kuzikwa ilhali kuna vijana ambao wanawekwa kama walinzi wa kuchunga watu wasitoroke na jambo lisijulikane. Hakuna siri ya watu wawili. Ikizidi tu watu wawili, basi hiyo si siri tena. Lazima itajulikana. Ni masikitiko makubwa. Tunajiuliza maisha ya Mkenya yako wapi? Wakati tunasema kuna uhuru wa kuabudu, ni lazima tujue pia kuna haki ya Mkenya ya kuishi. Haki ya Mkenya ya kuishi lazima ilindwe na kuchungwa. Hakuna uhuru ambao hauna kizuizi. Uhuru wowote lazima uwe na kizuizi. Huwezi kuwa na uhuru wa kuabudu katika hali ya kuhujumu wananchi wengine katika maafa kama haya. Ni masikitiko makubwa sana. Zaidi, huyu mchungaji Mackenzie akiwa kortini alisema: “Hamjui mnachopigana nacho, kitawaramba!” Matamshi hayo yanatuambia kwamba huyu hayuko peke yake. Lazima The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

uchunguzi thabiti ufanywe ili tujue kundi lake ambalo anafanya nalo kazi. Ni lazima pia tujue iwapo katika kuhujumu, ni watu gani ambao wanampa nguvu kuweza kufanya jambo hili pasi na kuwa na kigegezi na uoga. Ni lazima sasa tuangalie kuwa shughuli zetu za kidini zinaangaziwa, ama tuwe tunavidhibiti. Kwa Kiingereza, wanasema regularisation . Ni lazima tudhibiti mambo ya makanisa na nyumba za kidini ili tujue vidhibiti tutakavyoviweka ndio tujue shughuli zinazofanyika katika nyumba hizi za ibada. Tusiangalie tu itikadi kali katika mambo ya AlShabaab, bali tujue kuwa itikadi kali ziko katika nyanja zote. Hata sisi kule kwetu kuna wakati kulikuwa na Sheikh fulani aliyekuwa akiwaambia watu wasiende shuleni, wasisome na wakisoma watakuwa wanaenda kinyume cha dini. Kwa hivyo, jambo hili liko katika sehemu nyingi sana. Tufungue macho yetu sana na tuangalie sehemu nyingi katika mambo ya itikadi kali zinapatikana vipi na zinafanyika vipi. Hata katika taasisi zetu za masomo na vyuo vikuu, mambo haya yanafanyika na ndiyo tunakuwa na mambo mabaya kama haya. Ninasema pole sana kwa wale ambao wamepoteza familia zao kutokana na tukio hili. Lakini sasa vikosi maalum vipelekwe pale, kuwekwe fence na kuangaliwe kinaga ubaga ili ijulikane wale wote ambao wamepotea na ambao wamezikwa maiti zao zipatikane. Na wale ambao bado wako katika hali mbaya waweze kuokolewa ili waweze kurejesha uhai wao. Ninataka niseme Wakristo wanasema sio wote wanaomuita Bwana watauona ufalme wa mbinguni. Tuna wale ambao ni wachungaji lakini si wachungaji wa ukweli, ni mitume wa uongo. Kwa hivyo, lazima tuwe macho jameni.

Thank you. Member for Turkana Central.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Speaker for this opportunity. I also want to thank Hon. Baya for bringing this Motion. I want to send my condolences to the families and friends of those we have lost as a country. The issue at hand is about religion. Karl Max said that religion is an opium of the poor or the people. Some at that time thought he was very crazy. Today, we have realised that people can use religion to meet their ends. Even during the time we were struggling for independence, for example, in Tanzania a man called Kinjekitile Ngwale used holy water and told his followers it would protect them from the German bullets. Again, when Europeans or missionaries came to Kenya, the late Archbishop Desmond Tutu used to say: ‘They came with the Bible and told us to pray, then we closed our eyes. When we opened our eyes, they had the land and we remained with the Bible.”. I visited Ghana and when you go to Fort Elmina, you will find two scenarios, above where the governor used to stay was a church and below was a dungeon. These were the same people who were preaching religion but also enslaving Africans. These are the dichotomies we need to understand, that there is the application of religion to enslave or to snatch.

Again, there is a lot of escapism that our people are trapped into. In this country, when we lost Esther Arunga, everyone said maybe she was cursed but there was the aspect of religion. I do not know whether it was Placenta or Helicopter Church that was involved at that time but we did not open our eyes. I may not want to delve so much into this. I want to say Christianity is losing lustre. In this country, Islam as a religion has remained intact but Christianity is being abused and used. If you visit Israel, you will find that Nazareth has only 10 per cent Christians, the rest are Muslims. You go to Bethlehem and one per cent consists of Christians and maybe this is because there is something people are unhappy about. When we come back home, we have Article 32 of the Constitution which is about freedom of religion. I would recommend The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

that, as we talk about Article 37 of the Constitution which is about the right to demonstrate and picket peaceably and unarmed, we should also talk about Article 8 of the Constitution which says there shall be no State religion. We should speak from the platform of no State religion and we apply the Rwandan example. In Rwanda, President Paul Kagame did the right thing. All pastors in Rwanda have academic degrees while here in Kenya anyone can wake up in the morning and start a church. The case of Mackenzie will probably not be the last one. Others will mushroom. It is upon this House to help the Government to impose restrictions.

Mbunge wa Kinango.

Asante, Mhe. Spika wa Muda. Ninaomba niungane na wenzangu kumushukuru Mhe. Owen Baya kwa kuleta Hoja hii. Lakini ningetaka kutofautiana na wenzangu kwa michango ambayo wameifanya hapa kwa sababu nchi yaomboleza na bado itaendelea kuomboleza. Msiba huu ulituanza mwaka wa 2003. Historia inatuambia kwamba ulipofika mwaka wa 2016, yuko ndugu anaitwa Mwachiru ambaye aliuza mali yake na akamkabidhi Mackenzie karibu Ksh20 milioni, akanunua kituo cha televisheni na kuanza kutangaza masuala yanayohusiana na itikadi ya dini yake. Na Serikali ilikuweko. Ninashangaa licha ya haya yote kutokea, Mackenzie bado hayuko ndani. Lakini Mackenzie hastahili kuwa ndani peke yake. Mwaka wa 2018, Dkt. Ezekiel Mutua alitoa taarifa kwa Serikali kufunga kituo hicho cha runinga kwa sababu ya ujumbe wa Mackenzie lakini Serikali iliweka pamba kwenye masikio. Na hata kama alishikwa, inaonekana alikuwa na mkono mrefu kushinda Serikali.

Inaonekana Mackenzie aliununua uhuru wake. Ana stesheni ya redio na serikali yake, ndiyo maana ana uhuru wa kufanya yale anayoyataka katika nchi hii. Leo jamii zaomboleza kwa sababu wamepoteza wapendwa wao mikononi na machoni mwa Serikali. Hakika, kuna kitu fulani kinachokosa. Mackenzie amewahi kushikwa na kupelekwa kortini kisha akaachiliwa kwa dhamana. Mambo haya yalikuwa yashaanza kuonekana yakifanyika. Mpaka sasa bado tumefunga macho na kusema kwamba Mackenzie ni mtu wa kupelekwa mahakamani. Angekuwa ashapelekwa Uholanzi na kufunguliwa mashtaka. Katika mazungumzo yake, Mackenzie alisema idara ya upelelezi ifanye uchunguzi wa kutosha na waache kumnyanyasa kiasi cha kwamba anatafuta uhuru wake wakati ambapo taifa linaomboleza watu karibu 100. Bado amezungumza kwa nguvu kana kwamba ana imani kwamba kwa vyovyote vile, atafika kortini na kuambiwa ushahidi umekosa. Watu wamekufa na ushahidi unakosekana kwa sababu hakuwapiga bunduki. Kwamba, kuna mjumbe fulani anayehubiri kwa kutumia redio na kwa kutumia congregation na kuwaumiza watu kiasi hiki, lakini sheria ikakosa mwelekeo mpaka ikafika mahali leo, hata mahakama iliyomwachilia kuna kesi bado pending . Tena tunataka kufungua kesi nyingine. Hiyo pia ibaki kortini? Wale waendelee kuomboleza, Mackenzie aendelee kukaa kwa sababu… Kwa nini aliposhikwa hangeambiwa, “Hatutakupa chakula ukiwa hapa ili tukuone utafika wapi na kutokula. Si unataka kumwona Mungu? Tunakupeleka kwa Mungu haraka.” Tunampeleka kortini kufanya kazi gani? Wenzake amewapeleka mbinguni lakini yeye anataka kubaki hapa ardhini. Kufanya nini? Ni haki yake kule rumande pia aachishwe kula chakula aambiwe tunataka tumuone namna gani ataishi na pesa zile alizokuwa akipewa na raslimali alizozichukua. Aulizwe alikua anataka kuzipeleka wapi ili tujue haki imefanyika kuliko kumpeleka mahakamani na mwisho tuambiwe Paul Mackenzie amaeachiliwa kwa sababu ushahidi umekosekana! Amezuka mwingine huko Tongaren. Naye pia tunampapasa. Alisema watu wasulubiwe. Alipoambia asulubiwe yeye, alisema kunaumiza. Jamani, twataka dhibitisho la aina gani?

Thank you Hon. Member. Hon. Deputy Leader of the Majority Party, unfortunately, this Motion has a lot of interest but our time is up.

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Hon. Members, the time being 7.00 p.m., this House stands adjourned until Wednesday, 26th April 2023 at 9.30 a.m.

The House rose at 7.00 p.m.

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Clerk of the National Assembly Parliament Buildings Nairobi The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.