Clerk-at-the-Table, I believe we have quorum to transact business. Hon. Members, you will notice we have a Supplementary Order Paper that will guide our business this afternoon. I also have three short communications. The first one is on prioritisation of business during the Committee of Supply and Ways and Means period.

On a point of order, Chair.

Yes, Hon. Chepkonga. What is out of order? They are your guests.

Yes, it is true. I rise in support of your Communication. It is true that members of the County Assembly of the Committee on Delegated County Legislations were in my Committee this morning. They benefited a lot because both the Cabinet Secretary (CS) for Defence and CS for Agriculture, Hon. Linturi, were in attendance this morning. I confirm that they benefited a lot, and we exchanged a number of views with them. They are most welcome to the National Assembly. I thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Well done. Thank you, Hon. Chepkonga. Hon. Members, the third Communication relates to a visiting foreign delegation. It is not in the Gallery yet. Let us move on to the next Order. We will acknowledge them when they arrive.

The Leader of the Majority Party or your nominee.

Kilifi North, UDA): Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table: 1. The Funding of the National Government Constituencies Development Fund (NG-CDF) and the National Government Affirmative Action Fund (NGAAF) from the National Treasury and Economic Planning. 2. The Report of the Auditor-General and financial statements on the Multinational Lake Victoria Maritime Communications and Transport (MLVMCT) Project (ADF Loan No.2100150036247) – Kenya Maritime Authority from the Ministry of Mining, Blue Economy and Maritime Affairs. 3. The reports of the Auditor-General and financial statements in respect of the following institutions for the year ended 30th June 2022 and the certificates therein: (a) Kenya Academy of Sports. (b) National Social Security Fund. (c) Sports Kenya. (d) Pharmacy and Poisons Board. (e) Centre for Mathematics, Science and Technology Education in Africa. (f) Sacco Societies Regulatory Authority (SASRA). (g) Taita Taveta University. (h) Media Council of Kenya. (i) Kenya Institute of Mass Communication. (j) National Industrial Training Authority. (k) Coast Development Authority. (l) Tom Mboya University College. (m) Shanzu Teachers Training College, Mombasa. (n) National Council for Law Reporting. (o) Nairobi Centre for International Arbitration. (p) Kenya Marine and Fisheries Research Institute. (q) Coast Water Works Development Agency. (r) Kisii National Polytechnic. (s) Technical University of Mombasa Enterprises Limited. (t) Eldoret National Polytechnic. (u) TANATHI Water Works Development Agency. (v) RIVATEX East Africa Limited. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

(w) Tharaka University College. (x) Kenya Utalii College. (y) Kenya Literature Bureau. (z) Wildlife Research and Training Institute.

I thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Thank you, Deputy Leader of the Majority Party. Chairperson of Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. Before I lay the Paper, I request the Serjeant-at-Arms to turn off the AC. I have very strong sinuses.

Turn on or turn off?

I have said they turn off the AC. It is too cold.

I would rather they reduce rather than turn off.

I beg to move: THAT, taking into consideration the findings of the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations in its Report on the vetting of the nominee for appointment as the Director-General of the National Intelligence Service, laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 6th June 2023, and pursuant to Section 7(3)(b) of the National Intelligence Service Act of 2022, this House approves the appointment of Mr. Noordin Mohamed Haji, OGW, CBS, as the Director-General of the National Intelligence Service.

Order! Are we on the same page? You have jumped the gun.

Yes, I did. Sorry.

I called you to table a Paper.

Is it the one on Seychelles?

You were supposed to lay a Paper. We have not reached Order No.8 yet. Give him the microphone.

I am guided. I have very many Papers today. I beg your pardon.

We are still on Papers.

I beg your pardon. I beg to give notice of the following Motion: THAT this House adopts the Report of the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations on its consideration of the defence cooperation between the Government of the Republic of Kenya and the Government of the Republic of Seychelles laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 13th June2023.

Hon. Koech, we are on Order 5 where we are laying Papers. Can the Clerk-at-the-Table assist you? You will give notice under Order 6, which is the next order. Give the Member the microphone. Are your Papers in order now?

Yes. Indeed, most part of this Afternoon business will be on the Departmental Committee on the Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations.

Okay. Go ahead.

I beg your pardon once more. Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table of the House: The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

The Report of the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations on its consideration of the Defence Cooperation Agreement between the Government of the Republic of Kenya and the Government of the Republic of Seychelles.

Next is the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning. Where is the Chair? I was made to understand that they are not done yet.

Kilifi North, UDA): No, they are not done yet.

He will lay the Paper as soon as he walks into the House.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Next Order. The Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations, Hon. Nelson Koech, you can now give your Notice of Motion.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to give notice of the following Motion: THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations on its consideration of the Defence Cooperation Agreement between the Government of the Republic of Kenya and the Government of the Republic of Seychelles, laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 13th June 2023, pursuant to the provisions of Section 8(4) of the Treaty Making and Ratification Act 2012, approves the Defence Cooperation Agreement between the Government of the Republic of Kenya and the Government of the Republic of Seychelles.

Thank you. Next Order please.

Hon. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 44(2)(c), I rise to request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Committee on Implementation regarding implementation of the agreement between the Republic of Kenya and the Government of the Italian Republic on the Luigi Broglio-Malindi Space Centre. The Luigi Broglio–Malindi Space Centre was established close to 60 years ago through a public-private partnership between the Aerospace Research Centre at the Sapienza University of Rome, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) in the United States, and the Government of Kenya. The Centre has been used for several launch activities into space cementing the country’s contribution to the space sector. However, while the presence of such facilities is intended to bring positive change not only to the country but more specifically to the surrounding community, it is regrettable that the contrary is true. Over time, the governments of Kenya and Italy have made agreements in respect of the Centre. On 2nd February 2019, the then Cabinet Secretary for Defence, Raychelle The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Omamo, SC, EGH, signed an Agreement between the Government of the Republic of Kenya and the Government of Italian Republic on the Luigi Broglio-Malindi Space Centre, Kenya. Under this Agreement, which was ratified by the National Assembly on 15th October 2020, the Italian Republic agreed to implement certain undertakings which are yet to take effect. It is against this background that I seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Committee on Implementation on the following: 1. What is the status of previous House resolutions on the Luigi Broglio-Malindi Space Centre? 2. What is the state of the Agreement on enhancement of the capacity of the Kenyan public institutions of higher learning in training in space science and technology? 3. Could the Chairperson also explain the current state of the training of Kenyan nationals on aerospace science technology courses and scholarships in other disciplines as per the Agreement? 4. What development support programmes has the Italian Government undertaken for the people of Ngomeni area in Kilifi County as was agreed? 5. What is the state of the negotiations through respective Implementing Agencies or Ministries in order to give support to the Kenya Space Agency on access to Earth Observation and Space Science Data, Education and Training, telemedicine and establishment of a regional centre for Earth Observation? 6. How many professional staff have been seconded to the facility by the Kenyan Government? How many non-professional staff have been recruited? And further, has a Kenyan been appointed as Deputy CEO by the Government of Kenya as per Article 6 of the Agreement? I thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Is the Chairperson of the Committee on implementation in the House? Do we have any Member of the Committee? Bring the response in two weeks time.

Order, Hon. Members. I earlier on communicated the presence of Members of the County Assembly of Kakamega, whom you acknowledged with your foot- thumping and Hon. Chepkonga welcomed them. I am told they were in fact not in the Gallery at all, at the time.

They have just arrived. The delegation from our friendly country, Zambia, was in the Gallery but sitting in the wrong place. So, allow me to re-visit the same.

This is the delegation from Kakamega, which I have already mentioned, I do not need to recite what they are here for. When you are mentioned, you may stand up individually to be acknowledged. They are as follows: 1. Hon. Charles Nandwa - Chairperson 2. Hon. Stephen Mukhala - Vice Chairperson 3. Hon. Bernard Omboko - Member 4. Hon. Peter Walunya - Member 5. Hon. Doris Matere - Member The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

6. Hon. Josephat Wakukha - Member 7. Hon. Helemina Llanziva - Member 8. Hon. Angela Nelima - Member 9. Hon. Timothy Anzenze - Member We have already acknowledged and welcomed you. Hon. Chepkonga has also done so confirming that you appeared before his committee where there were two Cabinet Secretaries. You are welcome to the House of Parliament.

Hon. Members, I also wish to introduce to you a delegation from the Parliament of Zambia who are seated in the Speaker's Row. The delegation comprises Members of the Public Accounts Committee in the Parliament of Zambia. They are: 1. Hon. Warren C. Mwambazi - Leader of the Delegation 2. Hon. Jaqueline Sabao

- Member 3. Hon. Imanga Wamunyima - Member 4. Hon. Likando Mufalali

- Member 5. Hon. Victor Lumayi

- Member 6. Hon. Kalalwe Mukosa

- Member 7. Hon. Nicholas Mukumbi - Member 8. Hon. Jonathan Daka

- Member The delegation is accompanied by six staff from the National Assembly, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, and office of the Auditor General of Zambia. The delegation is on a visit to benchmark on the best practices and share experiences with their counterpart committees of the House dealing with financial, audit and money related matters. On my own behalf, your behalf and that of the National Assembly as a whole, I welcome them to Parliament and wish them fruitful engagements during their stay. Thank you. Hon. Members, we are moving on to Order Nos.8 and 9. The House Business Committee directed this afternoon that these two orders will take one hour; Order No. 8 will take thirty minutes and Order No.9 will also take thirty minutes so that we can then move on to the Committee of Supply. Before we invite the Mover at Order No.8, Hon. Junet has approached the Chair saying that he has a Point of Order. Can you go ahead and prosecute it? Give Hon. Junet the microphone.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I stand to seek your indulgence on a matter that Parliament has raised for public participation. Two Bills have been advertised for public participation and one of them is the Privatisation Bill. When the matter came to this House, the Bill was referred to the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning and they have published it for public participation.

Under the new Standing Orders of this Parliament a committee named Public Debt and Privatisation Committee was created. It is also seized of this matter on privatisation. I seek your indulgence, if the two committees can scrutinise the Bill, hold joint public participation and produce a joint report because they both oversee privatisation. I seek your indulgence because the two committees requested me, as the Minority Whip, to seek that you allow them to hold joint public participation and come up with a joint report which will benefit them. So, The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

later on when the Bill is assented to there will be no problems with the committee that will use it for oversight purposes.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Junet, I will direct the Clerk to bring the two Bills to me so that I can have a look at them together with the Standing Orders. I will give you direction on Thursday afternoon. Hon. Koech you have 30 minutes to prosecute this Motion. I encourage you, even if you are entitled to close to 15 minutes in moving, to take less time so that one or two Members can be allowed to contribute.

Thank you Hon. Speaker, I will be very brief. I beg to move: THAT, taking into consideration the findings of the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations in its Report on the vetting of a nominee for the appointment as a Director-General of the National Intelligence Service, laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 6th June 2023 and pursuant to Section 7(3)(b) of the National Intelligence Service Act, 2012, this House approves the appointment of Mr. Noordin Mohammed Haji, OGW, CBS as the Director-General of the National Intelligence Service.

Hon. Speaker, the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations is one of the 15 Departmental Committees of the National Assembly established under Standing Order 216 whose mandate pursuant to Standing Order 216(5) includes, among others, “to vet and report on all appointments where the Constitution or any other law requires the National Assembly to approve, except those under Standing Order 204 - Committee on Appointments.”

Hon. Speaker, the subjects of the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations as stated in the Second Schedule of the National Assembly Standing Orders include: defence, intelligence, foreign relations, diplomatic and consular services, international boundaries including territorial waters, international relations and veteran affairs.

The Report before the House details the proceedings during the approval hearing of Mr. Noordin Mohammed Haji, a nominee for appointment as Director-General of the National Intelligence Service. Through a letter dated 18th May 2023, His Excellency the President notified the National Assembly of the nomination of Mr. Noordin Haji as Director-General of the National Intelligence Service. Hon. Speaker, your office through a Communication made on Friday, 19th May 2023 conveyed to the Members of the National Assembly, the Message from His Excellency the President and you subsequently referred the nominee’s Curriculum Vitae (CV) and testimonials to the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations for approval hearings. While referring the matter to the Committee, you directed it undertakes the vetting exercise in accordance with the Public Appointments (Parliamentary Approval) Act (No.33 of 2011). Hon. Speaker, in compliance with Article 118 of the Constitution and Section 6(4) of the Public Appointments (Parliamentary Approval) Act (No.33 of 2011) …

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Order, Hon. Members! The consultations are too loud. Hon. Didmus take your seat.

Hon. Speaker, should I proceed? The Clerk of the National Assembly placed an advertisement in the print media on Saturday, 20th May 2023 informing the public of the nomination, date, time and place of the approval hearing. He also invited the public to submit memoranda by way of written statements on oath/affidavit and suitability of the nominee in conformity with Section 6(9) of the Public Appointments (Parliamentary Approval) Act (No.33 of 2011). The memoranda were to be received on or before Monday 29th May 2023 at 5.00p.m.

Hon. Speaker, the Committee received 26 memoranda on the nominee; four against and 22 in favour of the nominee’s suitability. Further, the Clerk of the National Assembly wrote to the Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA), Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC), Directorate of Criminal Investigations (DCI), Higher Education Loans Board (HELB) and Office of the Registrar of Political Parties (ORPP) seeking references and background checks relating to the suitability of the nominee and all responded in the affirmative.

Hon. Speaker, the nominee appeared before the Committee on Tuesday, 30th May 2023 at 2.30 p.m. for approval hearing. The Committee examined his suitability based on the criteria set out in Section 7 of the Public Appointments (Parliamentary Approval) Act (No.33 of 2011). In addition, the Committee examined his academic credentials, relevant experience, knowledge of sector issues and leadership and integrity. The Committee paid due regard to the procedure used to arrive at the nominee; any constitutional or statutory requirements relating to the office of Director-General of the NIS and suitability of the nominee for the appointment proposed having regard to whether the nominee’s abilities, experience and qualities meet the needs of the agency.

Hon. Speaker, the Committee conducted the approval hearing of the nominee and observed the following: 1. The procedure used to arrive at the nominee is Section 7(2) of the National Intelligence Service Act (No.28 of 2012) which provides that the President shall nominate a person for appointment as the Director-General and submit the name of the nominee to the National Assembly. Indeed, His Excellency the President on Thursday, 18th May 2023 communicated the name of the nominee for appointment to the position of Director-General of NIS for approval by the National Assembly. 2. The nominee met the requirements of Chapter 6 of the Constitution on leadership and integrity having been cleared by the following statutory bodies: EACC, KRA, DCI, ORPP and HELB. 3. That, in accordance with Article 78(1) and (2) of the Constitution and Section 8(1)(a) of the National Intelligence Service Act, 2021, the nominee is eligible for appointment as a state officer since he is a Kenyan citizen and does not hold dual citizenship. 4. That, the nominee complies with Section 8(1)(b) of the National Intelligence Service Act, 2012 which requires that the Director-General holds a degree from a university recognised in Kenya. Indeed, the nominee holds a Master’s degree in National Security Policy with merit from the Australian National University which he acquired in 2014, a Masters in Law (LLM) from the University of Wales, Cardiff which he acquired in 1997, and a Bachelor of Law (LLB) from the University of Wales, Cardiff which he acquired in 1996. In terms of academic credentials, Noordin Haji is extremely knowledgeable and well- read in many fields, particularly with a bias in law. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

The nominee has held the following positions: Director of Public Prosecutions (March 2018 to date); Deputy Director of Counter Organised Crime at the NIS from June 2016 to 2017; Deputy Director of Administration in the Internal Division of the NIS from January 2015 to June 2016; Head of Somalia Stabilisation at the NIS from 2010 to 2013; Head of Countering Violent Extremism at NIS from 2009 to 2010; Head of Legal Department at the NIS from 2005 to 2009; Deputy Head of Legal Department at the NIS from 2000 to 2005; and, State Counsel with the Attorney-General’s Office from January to December 2000. If you look at his CV, and from unofficial records, if you talk to the people who work with the NIS, they find Mr. Noordin Haji as almost a natural fit. Number one is because he has worked with the NIS before, and number two, many a times, they have had a Director-General being moved from either the police or other security agencies, and for the first time they are having one of their own as the Director General of the NIS. Noordin Haji is going back there — if this House finds favour and approves him — not as a stranger, but as someone who has risen through the ranks in the NIS from a relatively junior office, to a very senior office by the time he left to become the Director of Public Prosecutions. It is notable that one of the questions that Hon. Members of my Committee asked Mr. Noordin Haji is if he finds all this favour because he is the son of the former Senator Yusuf Haji. He was extremely proud to say that he is a proud son of the former public service officer and the late Senator Yusuf Haji, because it was his father who instilled discipline in him. This is something we should borrow as Members. That, Hon. Speaker, you would like to have your son being the Speaker of this National Assembly one day because you were one of the greatest Speakers that served in this 13th Parliament. That tomorrow the son or the daughter of my friend Junet Mohamed can come to this House as a Member of Parliament because of the good deeds that we do in society. It is because of that fact and the discipline that he got from his father that he has found favour in some of the offices that he has walked into. But that does not withstand the fact that he is equally a very hardworking person and an extremely humble fellow. Hon. Speaker, the nominee has never been charged in a court of law in the past three years, a requirement under the Schedule to the Public Appointments (Parliamentary Approval) Act.

Wind up, Hon. Koech.

I have a long story about Mr. Haji, but because of time, I will go straight to my last point. The Committee, therefore, recommends that the National Assembly approves the nomination of Mr. Noordin Haji for appointment as the Director-General of the National Intelligence Service. I beg to move and ask my Deputy Chairman to second.

Who is your Deputy Chairman? Hon. Bashir.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

I wish to second the Motion that this House approves the appointment of Mr. Noordin Mohamed Haji as the Director-General of the National Intelligence Service. As has been said by my Chairman, the Committee paid due regard to the procedure used to arrive at the nominee. He meets all the constitutional and statutory requirements relating to the office of Director- General of the NIS. He is suitable as nominee for the appointment proposed having regard to his abilities, experience, and qualities which meet the needs of the Service.

Upon conclusion of the approval hearings, we scrutinised the personal, academic, and career background of the nominee and we were fully convinced that he fits the role of the Director-General of the NIS. Indeed, we established: 1. The nominee, Mr. Noordin Mohamed Haji, meets the requirements of Chapter Six of the Constitution on leadership and integrity having been The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

cleared from the following statutory bodies: EACC), KRA, DCI, ORPP), and the Higher Educations Loans Board (HELB). All of them gave him a clean bill of health. 2. The nominee complies with Section 8(1)(b) of the National Intelligence Service Act, 2012, whereby he meets all the requirements pertaining to the appointment to the office of the Director General. 3. The nominee has held several positions and in total has had a career spanning over 18 years in the Public Service. Most of it having been performed at the National Intelligence Service at senior levels. 4. The nominee has not been charged in a court of law. This, therefore, informed us on his suitability. 5. The nominee does not hold office in any political party, a requirement under the Schedule to the Public Appointments (Parliamentary Approval) Act. Hon. Speaker, during the approval hearings, the nominee demonstrated knowledge of topical, administrative, and technical issues touching on the Government and has the requisite abilities, qualifications, and experience to serve as the Director-General of the National Intelligence Service.

During the approval hearings, we received 26 memoranda, out of which four were against and 22 were in favour of the nominee. We looked at the background of those that were against on whether they could sway the Committee’s decision, but all of them did not stand on legal grounds. We, therefore, could not consider them.

Hon. Speaker, with that, and having considered the credentials of the nominee, we wish to assure this House and the country at large that the right man for the job and for this appointment is Noordin Mohamed Haji. He fits the bill. As has been said before, Noordin Haji comes from a career family. His late father was a career civil servant, his mother is also a career civil servant. Therefore, he has had a long career in the Public Service.

I urge this House to consider the nominee and approve his nomination so that he serves in this position as soon as possible. With those few remarks, I second the Motion and urge the House to adopt this Report. Thank you very much.

Order, Hon. Members. Order! Question cannot be put before it is proposed.

I have at least two people who have requested to be given an opportunity and I oblige. The first one is Hon. Junet M

hamed. Each one of you has two minutes. Give Hon. Junet Mohamed the microphone.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I stand to support the approval of this Motion. I thank the Departmental Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Relations for the good work and research they have done in presenting to this House. I can see that the officer that has been nominated for this job is a distinguished officer who has served very well in the service and has an exemplary career. This is one appointment that is going to move this country forward and pose as an example to all appointments that would be brought to this House. This is an important institution in our country that is going to protect and provide the safety of citizens of this country. For this reason, it is an institution that must be headed and guided by somebody who The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

has the capacity, knowledge, and the temerity to do the kind of work that is related to that institution. Nobody is equipped with the skills required to do this work other than him. I want it to go on record that this is the person who will make sure this country is safe and secure. I have no doubt in accordance with the Report that has been brought by the Committee that he is a man with capacity and capability. I urge the House to approve him so that he can start his work. I thank you very much, Hon. Speaker.

Leader of the Majority Party, you have three minutes.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise to support the nomination and approval of the immediate former Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP), Hon. Noordin Haji. As it has been said in the Report, this is a gentleman known very well by the people of Kenya. He has served in the office of the DPP with unmatched integrity. He is getting into an office that is extremely sensitive. The office of the Director-General of National Intelligence Service is a repository of our national security. I am certain that the Committee, during vetting, engaged him in depth. And knowing matters security are not matters to delve in depth, it is important for Hon. Noordin to note that we have seen incidences like those of Shakahola and rampant attacks by terrorists in Lamu and Northern Kenya before. I am glad that Hon. Noordin is from Northern Kenya and, therefore, has a responsibility to safeguard the lives and property of Kenyans. First, he has to safeguard the lives and properties of the people in Northern Kenya and along the coastal belt bordering Somalia. We are all in the greater East African region which is unsafe in terms of security. The Director-General of NIS will be critical in ensuring not just the safety of our country, but also in guaranteeing safety of our neighbours. He also has to ensure that insecurity from our neighbouring countries like Sudan, Congo, and Somalia do not in any way infringe on the safety and security of Kenyans. Hon. Noordin Haji is a dedicated public servant who will never allow State capture to take over his office as Director-General of NIS. Indeed, NIS will never be used like before to settle political scores. Hon. Junet Mohamed will feel safe just as I will with Hon. Noordin Haji holding the office of the Director-General, NIS. I pray and wish him well. This afternoon, the House will approve him as our next Director-General of NIS. I hope he will act to ensure that he ignites intelligence services right at the sub location level. That, never again will Kenyans experience the Shakahola kind of tragedy that we have, where over a period of more than 10 years, Kenyans have been killed and their bodies buried in a forest in Shakahola, Malindi. There were chiefs and intelligence officers in Malindi, Kilifi and Shakahola yet in the last five years, hundreds of people disappeared and others were subjected to extra-judicial killings. We wonder whether those who were subjected to extra judicial killings under the last regime are part of those who are buried in Shakahola. I ask Hon. Noordin Haji to ensure that he goes to the depth of the extra-judicial killings that happened under the former regime and under the DCI, Mr. Kinoti. He should check whether there is any correlation between the massacre and burying of bodies in Shakahola and the extra-judicial killings that were perpetuated in the last five years. With those few remarks, I beg to strongly support this great son of Garissa County and Kenya whose family has also served this country. His father was not just a Senator but an experienced administrator and security man in the past. I hope Hon. Noordin Haji will follow in the footsteps of his late father and other intelligence chiefs who have secured our country. I wish him all the best. I support.

Hon. Zamzam, Mombasa County. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Asante sana Bwana Spika kwa fursa hii ili niweze kuunga mkono mjadala huu wa leo ama uamuzi utakaotoka hapa leo kuhusu ndugu yetu, Bw. Noordin Haji. Nimemjua Mhe. Noordin Haji tangu nikiwa msichana mdogo wakati walikuwa wanaishi Kakamega na baba yake aliyekuwa Mkuu wa Mkoa wakati huo. Baba yangu alipofariki, baba yake ndiye aliyenilipia karo ya shule, ndiposa nikamaliza shule ya upili. Tangu ujana wake, Noordin Haji alikuwa mtu tanashati na mchapa kazi. Alipokuwa akihudumu katika ofisi ya NIS kama naibu, alifanya kazi safi sana. Kama tunatafuta wasomi, yeye ni mmoja wao. Pia, ni mwenye bidii. Mimi kama Mama Kaunti wa Mombasa, niliona kazi aliyoifanya akiwa katika ofisi ya NIS alikohudumu mwisho. Ninamtakia kila la heri katika kiti hiki. Ninawaomba Wabunge wamwunge mkono ili aweze kuhudumia Wakenya. Asante sana, Bwana Spika.

Order! Hon. Member standing on the walkway, take your seat. I have five minutes to go with too many requests. I will give the following Members a minute each: Hon. Keynan, Hon. Farah, Hon. Otiende Amollo, and Hon. KJ. A minute will be left for the Mover to reply. Go on in that order.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. At the outset, I support this Report. I was the Chairman of this Committee between 2007 and 2013 at a very difficult time during the Grand Coalition Government. I have interacted with Hon. Noordin as an advocate, intelligence officer, and the recent one, DPP. If confirmed today, Insha’Allah, he will be the next Director-General of the NIS. Mr. Noordin is a quintessential and pragmatic intelligence officer. I have no doubt in my mind that he is going to contribute to the further transformation of our intelligence community. I support the Motion.

Hon. Farah Maalim, you have one minute.

Hon. Speaker, I also want to add my voice in support of this Motion. I have known Mr. Noordin since he was very young. I am convinced that for a country to prosper and have a proper security machinery, it must have a perfect intelligence service in every sense of the word. We cannot eliminate the scourge of the AlShabaab and the kinds of insecurities that we have in this country unless we have somebody whom we trust serving in that docket. I am sure that Mr. Noordin is that very person. Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Otiende Amollo.

Hon. Speaker, I support the Motion based on the law. I have carefully looked at Sections 6 and 7 of the Act, and Articles 238 and 239 of the Constitution. A holder of this office is required to be qualified in terms of learning, experience, and trust. These are not the same requirements as those of the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (ODPP). Even those who opposed his appointment raised issues of independence and impartiality. In fact, we must thank Mr. Haji because anyone who may have had an issue then – and the matter is in court so I will not comment on it – now has an opportunity to debate on a new DPP because the outgoing one has left office four years early. However, this is not an independent office that requires all those qualifications. It only requires gaining the trust of Kenyans. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you. I will indulge the Member for Ijara. Ngoja . I had mentioned Hon. KJ. Hon. KJ, you have one minute.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. I rise to support the Report that has been presented by the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations. By approving the appointment of Mr. Noordin Haji, we shall be doing what this country needs to be doing. We shall be rewarding merit. However, that is not why I rise. I rise to say that the task that is in the hands of Mr. Noordin Haji is greater than what we even imagine. In this new world, intelligence will require that we apply new technologies, and new and emerging trends in intelligence-gathering. As he takes office, I would like to tell Mr. Haji that he needs to look into the new space of artificial intelligence, robotics, and emerging technologies, so that he can up the game of intelligence in this country and we can end up being a pilot and a case study.

Member for Ijara, you have one minute.

Hon. Speaker, thank you for giving me this time. On behalf of the people of Ijara, I am grateful to His Excellency the President for appointing one of our sons to head the security docket. The people of Ijara are proud to have one of their sons being nominated for the said position. Mr. Noordin Haji is a competent man of integrity whose capacity is never in doubt. When he worked at the ODPP and as the Deputy Director for Counter-Intelligence, he received integrity awards and gained the confidence and trust of Kenyans. I welcome his appointment, and I urge and request colleagues across the political divide to consider his approval. Thank you very much.

Lastly, the Leader of the Minority Party.

Hon. Speaker, let me add my voice to this Motion.

Yes, Hon. Wanjala. What is out of order? It had better be a point of order. Yes, give him a microphone.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. My point of order is that as Members of this House who represent Kenyans, we have a lot of interest in this debate on the approval of…

What is out of order, Hon. Wanjala?

What is out of order is that you have severally picked on Somalis and you have excluded the rest of us. You now want to conclude the Motion.

Order, Hon. Wanjala. Order, Hon. Members! Hon. Wanjala, there are no Somalis in this House. We only have Members of Parliament. You are totally out of order in trying to profile your colleagues in a tribal manner. In fact, if you are talking of ethnicity, the Member for Ugunja, to whom I have given the Floor, does not fall within your profile. Hon. Wandayi, proceed.

Hon. Speaker, let me be very brief. I would like to add my voice to this Motion. From the outset, I have no objection to this appointment. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I still urge the incoming Director-General of the NIS to live true to the oath of office that he will be taking, and to ensure that he gives priority to the security of this nation. In the past, we have had serious incidents of terrorism in this country. I must commend the outgoing DG, Mr. Kameru, who was able to rein in rampant terrorism and terrorists acts within our country under very difficult circumstances.

Give the Leader of the Minority Party an extra minute.

Mr. Kameru was able to rein in terrorism within the borders of the Republic. I suppose that Mr. Haji will be able to do the same and even better. This House appropriates colossal sums of money to the NIS year in, year out. That money is appropriated for the sole purpose of capacitating the institution to execute its mandate without any hindrance. Therefore, as we conclude this debate, I suppose that this country will be safer under the new leadership of the NIS. Thank you.

Hon. Members, the Chairperson of the Kenya Women Parliamentary Association (KEWOPA) is protesting that very few ladies have spoken on this. I will give Hon. Mishi Mboko one minute.

Asante sana, Mhe. Spika. Ninaunga mkono kuteuliwa kwa Bw. Noordin Haji katika kitengo cha Huduma ya Ujasusi wa Kitaifa. Ninamuunga mkono kwa sababu amefuzu katika tajiriba ya kielimu, na pia ana uzoefu na uweledi wa mambo ya usalama na ujasusi. Amefanya kazi katika vitengo tofauti tofauti. Tunajua atatuwezesha kupunguza misimamo mikali ile tunaita extremism na mambo ya AlShabaab. Tunajua kuwa amefuzu katika mambo ya ujasusi na pia hana dosari katika uongozi na uadilifu. Vile vile, hajawahi kuhukumiwa kwa shutuma yoyote ya kijinai ama katika mambo ya uhalifu.

Tunajua anaweza na ana tajiriba ya kuongoza taifa la Kenya katika mambo ya usalama na ujasusi.

Your time is up. Mover to reply.

How many minutes do I have, Hon. Speaker?

One minute.

Hon. Speaker, my colleagues have paid a lot of attention to this Motion. For the first time, there is almost 100 per cent consensus on the approval of Mr. Noordin Haji. I appreciate my colleagues for doing such a good job. I also thank the former DG, Major General Kameru, who is exiting for the good job that he did when he took the helm at the NIS. I just want to wish Mr. Noordin all the best as he comes in. I beg to reply.

Thank you, Hon. Members. Sorry to those who wanted to speak but did not get an opportunity to do so. I know many of you wanted to speak to this. There is a Vote on National Intelligence Service (NIS) in the Committee of Supply. You can edge in on that and say what you wanted to say.

Hon. Wanjala is in his absolute right to shout himself hoarse. Allow me to acknowledge, in the Public Gallery and Speaker’s Gallery, the following institutions visiting Parliament: Makueni Boys from Makueni Constituency, Makueni County; Oshwal Academy from Nyali Constituency, Mombasa County; Katangi Secondary from Yatta Constituency, Machakos County; Nigaa Primary School from Kipipiri Constituency, Nyandarua County; and Ithanga Secondary School from Mosop Constituency, Nandi County.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

On your behalf, the House of Parliament and myself, we welcome the schools to the House this afternoon. Next Order.

Hon. Members and Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs, this Motion will also be debated for 30 minutes as directed by the HBC. Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs. The Member for Kirinyaga County, are you the Vice-Chairperson?

Hon. Speaker, I can see you are looking for Hon. Murugara but not the Vice-Chairperson.

Yes. I am looking for him.

I am the acting or interim Chairperson.

You are the representative of Hon. Murugara. Go on.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to move the following Motion: THAT, taking into consideration the findings of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs in its Report on the vetting of nominees for appointment as members of the Judicial Service Commission, laid on the Table of the House on Thursday, 8th June 2023, and pursuant to the provisions of Article 171(2)(h) of the Constitution and Section 8(1) of the Public Appointments (Parliamentary Approval) Act, 2011, this House approves the appointment of the following persons as members of the Judicial Service Commission (JSC)- (i) Ms Caroline Nzilani King’oku-Ajuoga; and (ii) Hon. Isaac Kiprono Rutto, EGH. Hon. Speaker, I beg to move that this House adopts the Report of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs on the approval hearing of Ms Caroline Nzilani King’oku-Ajuoga and Hon. Isaac Kiprono Rutto who are the nominees for appointment as members of the JSC. The Report contains proceedings of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal affairs during the approval hearing of Ms Caroline Nzilani and Hon. Isaac Kiprono Rutto as forwarded by His Excellency the President and communicated to the House by the Speaker on Wednesday, 3rd May 2023.

In considering the nominees’ appointment, the Committee paid due regard to the procedure used to arrive at the nominees. We examined the constitutional and statutory requirements relating to the office in question and the suitability of the nominees for the appointment proposed, having regard to whether their abilities, experiences, and qualities meet the needs of the said office. The Committee noted that in accordance with the relevant laws, the JSC notified His Excellency the President of the two vacancies in the membership by letters, Reference No. JSC8 dated 8th November 2023 and Reference No. JSC 8 dated 3rd March 2023. The Committee was guided by the constitutional and statutory requirements such as the national values and principles of governance, conduct of State Officers, specific qualifications for appointment as members of the JSC, and leadership and integrity The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

prerequisites. The suitability of the nominees was assessed after scrutiny of their background, academic credentials, and professional qualifications, work and professional experience, personal integrity as well as the performance. The approval hearing was conducted by the Committee on Thursday, 25th April 2023. It observed that the procedure used to arrive at the nominees was lawful and in compliance with Article 171(2)(h) of the Constitution of Kenya. The nominees met the constitutional and statutory requirements prescribed by the law. Ms. Caroline King’oku-Ajuoga is a Human Resource Management expert with a vast experience of service, disciplinary process, and training and development of employees. Hon. Isaac Kiprono Rutto is a public servant and an active participant in public life. He possesses the relevant experience for the position of member of the JSC representing the public.

The nominees also exhibited an understanding of the current issues affecting the Judiciary in the dispensation of justice from the perspective of the common mwananchi. It is for this reason that, on behalf of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs, I move this Motion on Approval of Nominees for Appointment as Members of the JSC.

I beg to move and request Hon. Wakili Edward Muriu, a Member of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs, to second this Motion. Thank you.

Hon. Wakili Muriu, second the Motion in three minutes.

Hon. Speaker, I second this Motion on Approval of Nominees for Appointment as Members of the JSC. They are Ms Caroline Nzilani King’oku-Ajuoga and Hon. Isaac Kiprono Rutto.

As a Members of this Committee, we took time to ensure that we remain very focused in the provisions of the law, in particular on Article 171 (2)(h) of the Constitution and Section 8(1) of the Public Appointments (Parliamentary Approval) Act, 2011. In view of the extremely demanding roles these two nominees are expected to play, we had to ensure that they are qualified academically. If I may start with Ms. Caroline Nzilani King’oku-Ajuoga, it will be good to mention that she is the head of Human Resource in the NCBA Bank Kenya which employs over 4,000 members of staff. The JSC is a service industry and its strength is in the quality of its members of staff who need motivation to serve Kenyans the way they are supposed to. Therefore, Madam Caroline Nzilani King’oku-Ajuoga will bring a lot of experience to the JSC in terms of managing their human resource. She will make sure the staff are motivated, cases of missing files are over, and corruption is addressed properly. As such, we expect a motivated Judiciary.

Hon. Isaac Kiprono Rutto comes in as a servant of the people. He has served as a Member of Parliament for many years. He has also served as a Governor of Bomet County for one term of five years. He is renown stickler of the law and was part of the 2010 Kenya Constitution amendment process. I second this Motion. The proposed nominees are fit to serve the JSC. Thank you.

Order, Hon. Members!

Put the Question.

Member for Chepalungu.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I stand to support this Motion. I want to categorically thank Members of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs (JLAC) for proper consideration …

For avoidance of doubt, you will have two minutes each.

I am well guided, Hon. Speaker. I stand here to support this proposal for the approval of the two nominees. I specifically want to mention The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Isaac Rutto, who is my immediate political party leader. He has resigned as the party leader. Probably – beginning today – being one of the senior-most politicians in the party, I will be one of the party leaders. I will really wish that I be recognised by my colleague Members of Parliament. Hon. Isaac Rutto will be remembered as one of the greatest people. In fact, in my constituency, you cannot say anything in a paragraph without mentioning the name of Isaac Rutto. He has done a lot with regard to education in my constituency. As the first Chairman of the Council of Governors (CoG), he is remembered for having done what was required of him. I know that the Judiciary is required to be independent and I know Isaac Rutto as a person who is independent minded. I have no doubt that he is going to give the best service. With that I want to urge all my colleagues to support these great nominees to serve our nation. Thank you.

Hon. Jared Okello.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. I welcome the decision to have Ajuoga appearing in the list. However, the name Rutto is becoming too much in this country. It is synonymous with the prevailing appointments. Therefore, in line with our constitutional dictates, we have to rethink the idea of regional and ethnic balance in appointive positions. The JSC is a very important component in the dispensation of justice in this country. Judges and magistrates get appointed through the JSC. When a Government turns rogue – there is nothing stopping this Government from becoming so – it is only the courts of law that can apply breaks to it. I am very afraid that there is an emerging trend in this House of debate being curtailed by Members who constantly say: “Put the Question.” What happened to debates in this House? That is the reason why people residing in State House have the temerity to tell us to vote in a particular way on Bills that come before this House. I challenge this House to step back, reflect, and retool as it discharges its mandate given by the people of Kenya. I support the appointment of Ajuoga in this respect and not Rutto.

Hon. Pukose.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I stand to support the appointment of Hon. Isaac Kiprono Rutto as a member to the JSC. He is a distinguished member having served as a distinguished Governor of Bomet, a Minister in the past and a Member of this House. I know that he will serve the JSC with distinction and honour. With those few remarks, I support.

On a point of order, Hon. Speaker.

Yes, Hon. Jared Okello. You have just spoken. What is your point of order?

Hon. Speaker, with due respect, I withdraw any inference on the person of Kiprono Isaac Rutto. As a former Member of Parliament, he was part of us in this House before he moved to be a Governor and ultimately – subject to our approval – getting this appointive position…

So, you are now not opposing his appointment?

Hon. Speaker, I support his appointment as a former colleague and somebody who has what it takes to become a Member of the JSC.

Therefore, I withdraw the inference that I made a while back.

Thank you, Hon. Jared. It is only men of great honour who can own up to their mistakes.

Yes! The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon Ruku.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise to support the appointment of the two distinguished Kenyans, His Excellency Hon. Rutto, the former Governor of Bomet and the second nominee. The nominations forwarded to this House by the President are to the point. We thank His Excellency for giving this nation proper individuals who can serve with integrity, commitment, and diligence. This Commission is important in recommending persons for appointment as judges, reviewing the terms and conditions of service of judicial officers as well as staffing the Judiciary. We need a competent Judiciary for the purposes of administration of justice in our country. I support the appointment of both Isaac Rutto and Caroline Ajuoga. Thank you.

Thank you. So that the lady from Kajiado County does not protest, I was looking for a lady to contribute but I do not see any. I, therefore, give the Floor to Hon. David Bowen, Member for Marakwet East.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I beg to support the appointment of the two nominees to JSC. The JSC is very important, especially to the judicial arm of the Government. I especially support the nomination of Isaac Rutto, the former Governor of Bomet County. I know him and we have worked together in many fields. When he was the Chair of CoG, Hon. Isaac Rutto fought hard to ensure that devolution worked, especially at a very difficult time of beginning the implementation of the Constitution. I hope he will go to JSC with the same strength and courage to make sure that JSC and the Judiciary in general function to dispense justice. We would also like to see the JSC establishing High Courts across sub-counties. I support the appointment of the two nominees. Thank you.

Member for Lugari.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I support the Motion on the appointment of the two nominees. I had an opportunity to work with His Excellency Isaac Rutto. There are two important things about him: independence of mind and being meticulous and attention to detail. There are very few people who take time to read through documents word for word. Isaac is such a person. The JSC in Kenya has suffered because it lacks someone who understands human resource management. I support the appointment of Ajuoga because she will bring the competence that has been lacking at the Commission. Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. ‘Toto’. Give the microphone to the Woman Representative for Bomet.

Thank you, Hon Speaker, for giving me this chance. I rise to also support the appointment of the two nominees. Hon. Isaac Kiprono Rutto served as a Member of Parliament for Chepalungu Constituency. He was also the first Governor of Bomet County and the first Chair of CoG. He has served as a Minister. I, therefore, support his appointment. I know he is equal to the task because he has experience. Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker.

Thank you. Hon. Kaguchia.

Hon. Speaker, thank you very much for this opportunity. As a Member of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs, I sat on the Committee during the vetting of these two candidates. I confirm that, indeed, we found these two candidates suitable for the position of Commissioner of JSC. Hon. Rutto, as a former Governor, seasoned civil servant, and a person who has served this country at different levels is, indeed, highly qualified to be a Commissioner of JSC. He brings with him a wealth of experience and will guide and help this country on matters justice. We will be in a good position by having the nominee as a member of JSC. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

The young lady brings youthfulness to JSC. Caroline is highly experienced in human resource matters. As you are aware, JSC requires an individual who is well-versed in human resource to equip all courts across the country with personnel. We need to boost our justice system. I support. Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Member for Luanda.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker, for this opportunity. I rise to support the nomination of the two persons, having gone through vetting by the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs. The JSC is an important Commission because it is charged with hiring and disciplining officers of the Judiciary. We need men and women who are independent, who have high integrity and who can stand by their decision. Having been a Member of this House, Chair of CoG, and being a leader of this country, Hon. Isaac Rutto is independent and is above petty issues. I, therefore, join my colleagues in supporting and appreciating the work done by the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs. Thank you, Hon. Speaker, for the time.

Hon. Rahim Dawood.

Thank you, Hon Speaker. I support both nominees, especially the former Governor of Bomet, Hon. Isaac Rutto. He has proved himself beyond reasonable doubt. He will work with my sister the Chief Justice, Martha Koome, who comes from my constituency. I know they will get along. With the experience he has in public service, Hon. Isaac Rutto will do a good job. I also believe that Ms. Caroline will infuse youthfulness in JSC. I hope that we can work with both nominees to support JSC. Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Alice Ng’ang’a.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise to support the two nominees, especially because the gender rule has been met. We have a lady and a gentleman. They are going to add value to JSC. When county government functions were being devolved to the county level, Hon. Isaac Rutto was the Chair of CoG. He made sure that the functions were fully devolved. He did not give in to pressure. He insisted that what was meant to be devolved to the county level went to the county. He also made sure that whatever the Council of Governors discussed and deliberated on was well established and was fulfilled. They were able to engage with the national Government at that level. So, I know he is going to add his rich experience to the JSC. I support the two appointments.

Hon. Chepkonga Samwel.

Hon. Speaker, I thank you very much. First, I would like to support this Motion. Second, I would like to speak concerning Hon. Isaac Rutto. Hon. Isaac Rutto lived in my constituency before he left for Chepalungu. I hear Hon. Mandasi claiming that he belongs to that place. His last post office address was 73 Kipkabus, which is in my constituency, Hon. Speaker. I have known this gentleman for some time. While I was at the university, he was the Director for University of Nairobi Association (UNSA). You know, the so-called chapatis were very popular with the students then and he ensured that we had them every Wednesday. You can imagine how popular they were, but he ensured that we were served very well. So, if we are looking for somebody with experience to serve, this is the man.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Speaker, we are looking for a person who will go to the Judiciary and ensure that the division that we have had between the Judiciary and the Legislature is completely removed. We have suffered as a consequence of not having our own in the Judiciary. This is one man…

On a point of information, Hon. Speaker.

Do you want to be informed by Hon. Robert Pukose?

Yes, Hon. Speaker. In fact, he has good information.

Hon. Speaker, I just wanted to let Hon. Chepkonga know that we used not to call it chapati, but “dialogue”.

That is true, Hon. Speaker. Hon. Pukose has spoken for the first time. He always speaks, but this time round, he has spoken in a better way. So, I support the appointment of Hon. Isaac Rutto. Thank you.

Thank you. Hon. Makilap.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise to support the two nominees, especially Hon. Isaac Kiprono Rutto - a man I know to be very meticulous with the truth. He will be taking truthfulness to the Judiciary. He is a man who keeps his word. I knew him even before I came to Parliament. He is the right person to join the JSC with the young lady, Caroline Nzilani. Hon. Isaac Rutto has served this country in various capacities. He has experience and knowledge. I hope he is going to inject into the Judiciary the idea of devolving judicial services to the constituency level by ensuring that the stalled high court projects in the constituencies or counties are completed. If the nomination of Hon. Isaac Rutto is approved, he will be the engine of the Judiciary. Together with the other team members, he will ensure that justice is seen to be done at the lowest administrative level. The citizens of this country will have judicial services closer to them. I believe in him because he is meticulous. He has the experience to inject new energy for the survival of the JSC. As I end my comments, I urge that we support the two nominees.

Hon. Jayne Kihara

Thank you, Hon. Speaker, for giving me a chance to support this Motion, through which Hon. Isaac Rutto - a veteran politician who stands tall in terms of the leadership of this country at many levels - is nominated. He is the first Chairperson of the Council of Governors. In fact, he was elected un-opposed for a second term because he worked very well. He was formidable during his tenure. He made sure that devolution worked. I may not know the young lady, but I will support her vehemently because we have had issues with gender balance in this country. As long as we have a woman and this great Kenyan in the name of Hon. Isaac Rutto, I support the Motion and hope that he is going to be as vigorous as he has been. He does not mince his words. He says what he believes in, and that is the kind of person we need at the JSC. I support.

Member for Kwanza Constituency.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise to support the Motion. It is said that experience is the best teacher. I have known Hon. Isaac Rutto for some time. Politically, he is well versed. I remember he once came to my constituency and I also went to his constituency. When he stood for elections, he was elected un-opposed. He will bring a wealth of experience to the Judiciary. This House does not need to debate him. I do not know the lady, but Rutto is somebody we know very well. We should just let him take his experience to the Judiciary. With those few remarks, I support the Motion. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Nyikal.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise to support the two nominees. I must appreciate you for allowing us to discuss the two nominees. That is the role of the House as a debating institution. I support the two nominees. The Committee’s Report indicates that both of them fully qualify. As for Hon. Isaac Rutto, we all know his zeal. He worked very hard as the Chair of the Council of Governors when devolution started and we believe he will take the same vigour to the Judiciary. The only exception is that in the Council of Governors, something he should have done, but he did not do, was to establish the Governmental relations technical committee, which up to now is not working efficiently. It is not working in harmony with the secretariat of the Council of Governors. Should he find similar situations at the JSC, he should sort them out so that we can benefit from his zeal and his expertise. I support, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Johana Ng’eno.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. At the outset, I wish to support the two nominees to the particular positions, remembering that the judicial system in the country at times faces some problems. I believe the two nominees will help in correcting some of the issues we have in the Judiciary. I personally know Hon. Isaac Rutto, who is a former Governor of Bomet, as a diligent man. He is a straightforward person who understands the law since he participated in the making of the Constitution of Kenya, 2010. I believe the experience he acquired during the time he worked as a Cabinet Minister and Member of Parliament will help him steer the JSC in the right direction in terms of guiding them in their working. With those remarks, I beg to support.

On a Point of Order, Hon. Speaker.

Next is Hon. Hillary Kosgei. Hon. Ruku, what is your point of order?

Hon. Speaker, Hon. Johana Ng’eno is a man who arrested three police officers on Saturday in Narok instead of him getting arrested by them.

What is out of order?

He is completely out of order to have such behaviour instead of succumbing.

Order, Hon. Ruku! You have no capacity to rule any Member out of order. That is the preserve of the Chair. Hon. Hilary Kosgei, carry on.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I join other Members in supporting the appointment of Hon. Isaac Rutto and Ms. Caroline Nzilani. Isaac Rutto is a household name in this country because of the energy and the commitment he puts in whatever appointment he is given. As the first Governor of Bomet, and the Chairperson of the Council of Governors, he displayed exemplary leadership that is equally needed in our Judiciary right now. If there is a moment during which the mess at the Judiciary is to be corrected, then it is under the leadership of former Governor, Isaac Rutto. Much has been said about Hon. Isaac Rutto. He is an illustrious Kipsigis son and a darling of the people of Bomet and Kericho counties. Therefore, this is a very consequential appointment to our community. I beg to support

Yes, Hon. Haika Mizighi.

Hon. Speaker, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity. At the onset, I support the Report and the two nominees. I also want to speak about Isaac Rutto, having known him for some time. I know that he has a wealth of experience. Being the first Chairperson of the Council of Governors and the Governor of Bomet, we know he is up to the task. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Therefore, I support the Report.

Hon. Edith Nyenze.

Hon. Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to support the two nominees - Ms. Caroline Nzilani and Hon. Isaac Rutto. First of all, I support because there is gender balance in the nomination of the two. Again, I support because Ms. Caroline Nzilani is a professional who was head of human resource management. Therefore, she brings to the table experience on management of the most important asset of any organisation. Human resource is the most important asset of any organisation. With her experience, I know she will treat the people of Kenya with justice. The other reason I support the appointment of Hon. Isaac Rutto is because he has an independent mind. I pray that as he joins the JSC, he takes with him continuous improvement and innovation so that we can see impartiality and independence within the JSC. With those remarks, I support the nomination of the two persons.

James K’oyoo.

Hon. Speaker, I thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to, at the onset, add my voice to that of my colleagues in support of the nomination of Hon. Isaac Rutto and Ms. Caroline Ajuoga for appointment to this illustrious position. Hon. Rutto will add a lot of value to the JSC, being a man who has his own legs to stand on. He has demonstrated this. Those who know him well will tell you that during the late Daniel Arap Moi’s regime, he had difficulties with Moi because he would make his own decisions. Even during the last two elections, he refused to follow suit with his larger Kalenjin community, which was moving in one direction politically because he has his own legs to stand on. We have several challenges in the JSC. We need independent-minded people like Isaac Rutto to step in and add value to the JSC. With those remarks, I support the nominations.

Thank you, Hon. K’oyoo. Hon. Justice Kemei.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker, for giving me an opportunity to speak on this Motion. At the outset, I would like to express my support for the appointment of the two persons to the JSC. I have read the Report, but I know more about Hon. Isaac Rutto. Much as he is independent-minded, this person believes in a consultative approach to issues. I believe that special attribute will make Hon. Isaac Rutto an asset in the delivery of justice in this country. My colleagues have mentioned the rest. With those few remarks, I beg to support the Motion and give opportunity to my colleagues to also say something.

Yes, Hon. Julius Melly.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise to support the Report on the two nominees. I have read the Report by the Committee and found that the two candidates are very suitable. More specifically, Hon. Isaac Rutto is a household name in the Republic of Kenya - more so on devolution, issues of human rights, and fighting for the rights of the devolved units. With those remarks, I support.

Thank you. Give the microphone to the Member behind Hon. Mugambi Rindikiri.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker, for giving me an opportunity to add my voice to this debate. The Justice and Legal Affairs Committee (JLAC) has done a commendable job by nominating the two, Hon. Isaac Rutto and Ms. Nzilani. Specifically, Hon. Isaac Rutto is a man with a lot of experience. He comes into the JSC with a wealth of experience. I know he understands the dynamics of this country. I am sure that The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

whatever he is going to be involved in, he will perform to expected standards. I know we have a lot of work in this country, especially with the many cases that have piled up. I know the Judiciary has been trying to clear that backlog of cases. With the coming in of Hon. Isaac Rutto, I know he is going to do a lot with his colleague. With those remarks, I support and commend the JLAC for a job-well-done.

Is it the Member for Elgeyo Marakwet? Yes, Member for Bomet East.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. I also rise to weigh in on this golden moment. I also beg to support the nomination of Hon. Isaac Rutto. He has been a very charismatic leader. Coming from my county, he has been a perfect leader during his reign as the first Governor of Bomet County. Hon. Isaac Rutto has demonstrated his leadership very well, from the time he became the Member of Parliament for Chepalungu. He was elected a second time as a Member of Parliament in the same constituency until he became the Governor of Bomet County. During the time he was Governor, Isaac Rutto was the first leader of the Council of Governors. Through his agitation for devolution, he led governors in making sure that resources are devolved to the counties. With those remarks, I beg to support the two leaders who have been nominated.

Thank you, Hon. Yegon. Hon. Liza Chelule. Give the microphone to Hon. Liza Chelule. Why are you giving the microphone everybody except Liza Chelule?

Ahsante sana, Bwana Spika kwa kunipa nafasi niunge mkono wenzangu ambao wameunga hawa watendakazi wawili, Bw. Rutto na huyu msichana. Wawili hawa wako tayari kufanya kazi katika nchi yetu ya Kenya. Sisi sote tunamjua aliyekuwa Mhe. Isaac Rutto wa Bomet. Wakati mwingine alichaguliwa kuwa Mjumbe na wakati uliofuata akachaguliwa kuwa Gavana wa Bomet. Kazi ambayo alifanya ni nzuri sana. Huyu ni kiongozi ambaye tunaelewa kwamba alikuza mambo ya ugatuzi sana. Ni kiongozi ambaye alitatua shida kule Bomet. Naelewa kuna wakati mmoja kulikuwa na jamii mbili zilizokuwa zimekosana upande wa Borabu. Yeye ndiye aliyeongoza mazungumzo kati ya jamii hizo mbili. Huyu ni kiongozi ambaye anaonekana kutokuwa na mpaka kwa kazi yake. Sisi kama Wajumbe, tunaunga mkono kiongozi ambaye atawaunganisha Wakenya. Tunajua kwamba atafanya kazi hii kwa njia nzuri. Kwa niaba ya watu wa Nakuru, na kwa niaba yangu mwenyewe, ninaunga mkono Hoja hii ili Mhe. Rutto apate kazi hiyo.

Hon. Silvanus Osoro.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise to support this Report by the Committee. I sit in that Committee. I attended all the sittings during the vetting process of Hon. Isaac Rutto and the other nominee. What came out is that there is a misconception about people who are actively involved in politics. Many times, the public tends to think that when you are involved in politics, you lose your professional line. During vetting, we realised that people like Hon. Isaac Rutto are professionals in their own rights. When given an opportunity in a professional line, they will exercise their duties with utmost commitment, without bias and with a lot of focus. Hon. Isaac Rutto displayed the personality and vigour that is needed to revamp and grow the JSC. It is, therefore, important for this House to pass the Motion. It can be seen from the overwhelming support that Members have given to this Motion that the nomination of these two will be approved. With those remarks, I support the Report.

Hon. Kawanjiku.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker, for giving me an opportunity to support this Motion. I support the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs for sitting down and coming up with this Report and making sure that the characters of the people they are The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

proposing are beyond reproach. Hon. Isaac Rutto has been a Member of this House and a Governor of Bomet County. He has exhibited exceptional character in terms of leadership and support to his people. I, therefore, recommend him. I know Hon. Isaac Rutto and Ms Caroline Nzilani will bring the judicial reforms that we have been expecting at the Judiciary, by making sure that some of the cases that have been taking long are settled. They should come up with reforms in terms of judges by making sure that they deal with the judges who are corrupt and are not supposed to execute judicial mandates. They should also deal with the judges who prolong cases for their own benefit so that our citizens benefit from the JSC. They should streamline the Judiciary. With those remarks, I support.

I want to bring this to an end. I will give the Member for Manyatta one minute, and your neighbour, Hon. Sigei, one minute. One minute each. Give them the microphones.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker for this opportunity. I rise to support the appointment of Hon. Isaac Rutto, the former Governor of Bomet, and Ms Caroline Nzilani to sit in the JSC. The JSC requires new blood. I believe that Isaac Rutto has a lot to offer to the JSC. We saw his zeal during the push for pesa mashinani, as he called it. It was something that captured the whole nation’s eye. He is resolute. He can make decisions and that is something that the JSC requires at this time. I also hope that he will come up with new ideas to deal with the issue of backlog of cases pending in our courts. The Judiciary has a backlog of cases dating back to the 1980s. We always need to come up with new ideas to deal with problems in all of our institutions. I support.

Hon. Sigei, you have one minute.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker for giving me this opportunity to also add my voice to this Motion. I support these two appointments. I, however, know Isaac Rutto more than I know Caroline. Hon. Isaac Rutto is a man of the people. He is all round, robust and brilliant. People appreciate whatever he did in Bomet. I know that he will bring in a lot of support and favour to the JSC. I am very sure that he will support us. He is a nationalist. I am very sure that he will assist the JSC to have a different image and support the local people. I beg to support.

Hon. Basil. Is that Hon. Basil or Hon. Oluoch?

Yes. There is a light behind you, and I cannot see you properly. I am sorry. You have one minute starting now.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. As I support the appointment of Hon. Isaac Rutto, I would like to remind him and his counterpart the reason why we have independent commissions and constitutional office holders in the Constitution. The JSC was supposed to be one of those that not only speak and act to balance power between the Executive and the Legislature, and an eye for the ordinary people, but also to check and supervise the workings of a proper Judiciary. Unfortunately, the JSC has turned into a trade union for judges where it is almost impossible to sanction and remove errant judges. I hope this will change. Hon. Rutto is an example of the fact that Members of Parliament, within their ranks, are professionals in their own rights. It is also a demonstration that there is life after Parliament, and that politicians can serve with distinction just like Hon. Isaac Rutto has done in other offices. I wish him well and hope that he will not be like another person that we The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

appointed to serve in the Salaries and Remuneration Commission (SRC), only for him to turn out to be a tormentor of the very Members who appointed him. I support.

Let us have Hon. Mishi Mboko as the Mover gets ready to reply.

Asante Mhe. Spika. Naunga mkono uteuzi wa Caroline na Isaac Kiprono Rutto ili waweze kuhudumu katika Tume ya Huduma za Mahakama. Uteuzi huu umeweza kuzingatia sera ya jinsia na sisi kama akina mama tunashukuru sana. Nilimjua Mhe. Isaac Rutto alipokuwa Mbunge na gavana. Utendakazi wake hauna ubaguzi. Yeye ni kiongozi ambaye haogopi na huzungumza hisia za ukweli kutoka moyoni mwake. Dada yetu, Caroline, pia ameweza kufuzu vizuri katika tajriba ya kielimu. Hana dosari yoyote katika mambo ya uongozi na uadilifu. Watu hawa wawili wakiwa katikaTume hii, ni muhimu sana wahakikishe kwamba mahakama inatekeleza wajibu kwa njia ya kumsaidia Mkenya, haswa katika mambo ya kisheria na hukumu. Hii ni kwa sababu tumeona dhuluma nyingi sana zikifanyika. Watu wengine wanahukumiwa pasipo na makosa. Walio na makosa wanatumia njia ambazo si sawa ili kuepuka hukumu. Nina amini kwamba wateuzi hawa wawili, haswa Isaac Kiprono Rutto, ambaye kwa kiingereza wanasema ni no-nonsense man; ni kiongozi ambaye akilenga amelenga na akisema amesema, haogopi, hatishwi wala hatingishiki… Kwa hivyo, tunajua kwamba Tume ya Huduma za Mahakama itaweza kuongozwa kwa njia ya kufuata mujibu wa Katiba ya Kenya. Hivyo basi, Mkenya ataweza kupata haki yake bila kudhulumiwa. Mhe. Spika, ninaunga mkono.

Mover.

Reply in Kiswahili.

I can. Hon. Speaker, I thank Members for their meaningful contributions. I further wish to remind the nominees that they should be guided by the tenets of natural justice when dispensing their duties. I beg to reply.

Thank you, Hon. Member.

Hon. Members, allow me to acknowledge in the Speaker’s and Public galleries students from Thindigua Primary School, Kiambaa Constituency, Kiambu County; Kiamugumo Secondary School, Gichugu Constituency, Kirinyaga County; Mayori Secondary School, Mbeere South Constituency, Embu County; and Kibirigwi Secondary School, Ndia Constituency, Kirinyaga County. On your behalf and my own behalf, I wish to welcome the students and their teachers in the House of Parliament.

Yes, leader of the Majority Party.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise under Standing Order 30(3)(a) to move the Procedural Motion. Hon. Speaker, I beg to move: THAT, pursuant to Standing Order 30(3)(a), this House orders that should the time appointed for adjournment of the House be reached before conclusion of business under Order No.10, the Sitting shall stand extended until conclusion of the business appearing under Order No.10 (Committee of Supply). The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Speaker, this is to allow the House to transact the business of Committee of Supply until its conclusion so that we are able to finish today before the House adjourns. Allow me to ask Hon. Abdi, Member for Ijara to second.

Hon. Speaker, I rise to second the Motion for extension of time. This will allow us to transact Order No.10 to conclusion hence help us supply resources to ministries and State agencies.

I support and second.

Put the Question!

I will now put the Question.

Hon. Members, the upshot of this is that, ordinarily, we would adjourn the House at 7.00 p.m. Should we get to 7.00 p.m. and there is still interest in prosecuting business under Order No.10, we may be constrained to move on up to 10.00 p.m.

Next Order!

Order Members. We are now in the Committee of Supply to consider the Estimates of Recurrent and Development Expenditure for the year ending 30th June 2024.

Order, Members! We know how to raise points of order. I only have four interventions right now.

Hon. Didmus Barasa.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, we have always contributed to Committee on Supply by pressing the intervention button. So, pressing the intervention button does not mean one is on a point of order. We just want to contribute.

Noted. I see that we have very many people on the normal requests list. If you want to contribute on a specific Vote, please, press the intervention button during debate on that Vote for us to tell what you want to contribute on.

We will not go back to Vote 1011. We have already dispensed with that Vote. We are moving to the next Vote.

Put the Question.

The Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriation Committee.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule be amended in Vote 1012, by deleting the figure Ksh3,488,259,404 in Column 6 (Gross Current Estimates) under Programme 0734000, Deputy President Services; and substituting therefor the figure Ksh3,288,259,404.

The essence of this is that there was Ksh200,000 under the Office of the Deputy President, which we are moving to the right department. This amount was allocated to the Nairobi Rivers Commission. We are now moving it to devolution. This will tidy up the entire Estimates.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

Member for Mathare.

I would like to confirm whether your gadget indicates that we are on intervention and we are able to make contributions. You have just confirmed that part of this process requires that before the matter is called to vote, there should be contribution, if there is any. We have been pressing the intervention buttons - I have done it three times - but it appears the gadget may not be reflecting. Could you confirm?

Hon. Member, I have just seen you right now. That is why I have called you. As I had guided earlier, if you wish to speak on a specific Vote, it is allowed after I put the Question on the programmes to have a debate on it. You are at the right place. If you want to contribute on this one, please, press the intervention button, but not on the previous ones that have been dispensed with.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I request you to allow us also to catch your eye rather than press the intervention button. I wanted to speak to two previous votes, but I did not catch your eye. Allow us to catch your eye instead of pressing the intervention button.

Thank you, Hon. Oluoch. Hon. Didmus Barasa.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. Even as I support the allocation of this money to Parliamentary Affairs, I hope that the holders of this office are going to make good use of this House. They need to engage us more specifically on what is coming up that is good for this country so that we continue to have a very good working relationship between ourselves and the Executive for the benefit of Kenyans. I support, but I hope to see much more improved working relationship between the Office of the Prime Cabinet Secretary, under which this department is domiciled and this House. I support.

Hon. Members, we will take the shortest time if you get a chance to speak and keep it at two minutes. Member for Teso South, are you willing to contribute on this one?

No, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Members, make our work easier. If you do not intend to speak on this one, withdraw your intervention. When we get to an area you want to make an intervention, put back your card. Member for Yatta.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. My intervention is yet to arrive. I am waiting for Vote 1017.

We do not have fuliza points of interventions. Member for Kiharu. Please, clear the screens so that we are able to make progress. Alright.

Member for Sigowet/Soin, Hon. Justice Kemei. We keep it at two minutes.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I will be very brief. Thank you for the opportunity you have given me. As I support this Vote, I want us to realise that Public Service in this country must take the scale of service up to be comparable with those of the private sector and increase productivity.

Thank you. Member for Saku.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. This particular department is about the working of the Government and looking at the use of public resources in the most effective and efficient manner. This particular department is underfunded. The funds that are allocated must be used properly so that Government projects are seen and completed on time.

Thank you. Member for Seme.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I am also of the opinion that this State Department is underfunded. This is the most critical department for performance contracting. In the past, performance contracting enabled superb delivery under the coalition Government because of the performance of this department. They should put in place structures of monitoring and measuring performance with the little money they have so that each department is measured. What is measured gets done. That is what this department should do. We should intend to finance it better.

Thank you, Members. I have given to a few of you. I know the main debate took place yesterday. We will give the final one on this one to the Member for Mombasa County. If she is not interested in this one, let us hear the Member for Narok West.

Mhe. Naibu Mwenyekiti, ilikuwa nataka kuzungumzia makadirio ya matumizi ya Ofisi ya Rais na State House . Naona ni kama ni kitu kimoja. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hiyo imeshapita, Mheshimiwa. Sasa tumsikize Mbunge wa Narok West, tafadhali.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I want to add my voice to the voices of the Members who have supported this Vote. As it has been said by the Committee Vice-Chairman, we all know that it is underfunded. This is a very critical State Department of the Government. This is where all the state corporations are domiciled. The turnaround of the economy of the country lies largely on the effectiveness of this State Department. I support it.

Thank you, Hon. Members.

Member for Mathare. He seems not to be in. Hon. Ferdinand Wanyonyi, Member for Kwanza.

Now that we have approved this one…

Which one?

I think it is quite good. We look forward to the Cabinet to include the Chief Administrative Secretaries (CASs). They have been waiting for the passage of this to work for this country. I support.

Thank you, Hon. Ferdinand Wanyonyi. Next is Hon. Didmus Barasa.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I wish to support and commend the Committee for scaling down this amount of money. The previous allocations were very big, going to billions of shillings. We are aware that there were very few Cabinet meetings that were being conducted. This time round, we see Cabinet meetings taking place quite often. I support.

Asante. Sasa tumsikize Mheshimiwa Zamzam Fatuma. Hon. Member, I had guided the House that you only put an intervention if you intend to speak on a specific Vote under discussion.

Ninasubiri inayofuata, hiyo ishazungumziwa.

Hon. Robert Basil.

Hon. Chairlady, it is clear that the role performed by the Prime Minister relates very well with the role that is within the Cabinet Affairs Department. I do not think we need to have that allocation provided separately. We can merge The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

it with the money in the Office of the Prime Cabinet Secretary because there is an element of duplication, looking at the two budget lines.

Hon. Martha Wangari): Hon. Owen Baya.

I am okay, Chair.

I heard you, Hon. Members. I have already guided you. We will allow a few Members to speak. Hon. Mark Mwenje.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. It has come to my attention that State House is being given Ksh7.3 billion yet the Office of the President has already been given Ksh4.3 billion. We have noted that the amount that has been allocated to the youth is only Ksh3 billion. Education development for teachers has been allocated about Ksh1.6 billion. Can you explain to us? I hope you will give a chance to the Chair of the Budget and Appropriations Committee to respond. We seem to have the same office (Office of the President and State House). I do not see the Office of the Deputy President and the residence of the Deputy President here. How do you explain this? Is this a double allocation? Hon. Chair, I may not be familiar with how to propose an amendment, but I would like to propose that we swap the figures - we can give the figure allocated to the Office of the President and State House to the youth affairs docket, and give the amount allocated to the youth affairs docket to the Office of the President and State House.

Hon. Martha Wangari): Hon. Members, please, note that the substantive debate happened before this sitting of the Committee of Supply. I will, however, give chance to a few more Members to comment. Hon. Wanami Wamboka.

Hon. Chairlady, I honestly do not understand why we should have an allocation of Ksh7.3 billion for State House and another allocation of Ksh4.3 billion for the Office of the President, bearing in mind that specific departments under the Office of the President are funded differently. This is wastage of resources. Is someone trying to be mischievous? I would call upon Hon. Ndindi Nyoro to explain to us. How does it happen? It would make sense if he did not allocate money to the specific State departments under the Office of the President so that they all draw their resources from the Office of the President. There are too many problems in this country right now. Teachers are crying that you want to tax them more. Civil servants are crying that you want to take their money. At the same time, you want to tax the mama mboga . Where are we headed with these double allocations in one office? The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Each Member will get a maximum of two minutes. Hon. (Dr.) Robert Pukose.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I stand to support the allocation of Ksh7.3 billion to State House. Some Members who are contributing cannot differentiate between the Office of the President and State House. State House is the seat of power for the country and must be well funded. It is home to the Head of State. We have several State Houses, for Members’ information. We have State Houses in Mombasa, Nairobi, Eldoret and Kakamega, where you come from. Those State Houses have staff and have to be maintained in a proper way. In the Office of the President, we have other officers who work there. They include the officers we collectively used to call “provincial administration”, who have to get their salaries from there. Chiefs and assistant chiefs from our respective counties are catered for under the Office of the President. Many Members of Parliament always ask for employment of assistant chiefs and chiefs. How do you pay them? You pay them through the Vote of the Office of the President. We need to be objective when we address issues. We should not bring in trivial matters in as far as State House is concerned. It is a seat of unity for this country. I support.

Member for Nyando.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I am perplexed by the pedestrian way of distinguishing the two offices, as exhibited by my colleague. For the most part, the Office of the President falls under the purview of the Ministry of Interior and National Administration. Therefore, if there is money to be expended in that direction, it ought to be within that particular sector. We all acknowledge that things are very difficult in this country, hence the need to come up with austerity measures. The Office of the President, and State House by extension, is getting more than double the allocation it got last year yet the vehicles that were left behind by the previous administration were still new and the number of employees has not increased. Why is that the case? Will this money be used to buy the loyalty of the opposition? That is exactly what has been happening lately. Therefore, let us convince Kenyans that this is the direction that the Government wants to take.

Your time is up, Member for Nyando. Next is the Member for Kiharu.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I also thank Members for their contributions. We have enhanced the budget for State House because we have to cover a multitude of pending bills from the previous administration that were incurred towards the end of the last administration. In terms of our Public Finance Management (PFM) Act, pending bills form the first charge in the budget of a new financial year. Therefore, as a responsible Committee, we had to respond to that situation. I will respond to the issue of the money that was mentioned by Hon. Mwenje when we get to the education sector because education is taking up to a third of the national budget or Ksh630 billion to be precise. Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

Member for Mathira.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairlady, for giving me this opportunity. I rise to support the separate allocation of funds to the Office of the President and State House because the two offices have separate employees. I want to give an example of Hon. Mwenje, who brought up this discussion. He is preparing to become the next Chief Whip of the Minority Party. He will have a car, an office and members of staff in the office of the Chief Whip of the Minority Party, who will be different from the staff members in his office of Member of Parliament. This is exactly what is happening. The Office of the President has separate staff from those working at State House. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

So, I support these allocations.

Thank you, Member for Mathira. Next is the Member for Aldai. We are getting to the end of debate on this vote.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I rise to support the budget allocation for State House. The reason is that State House houses the presidency and, therefore, we need to allocate funds to it. The same State House accommodates foreign visitors coming to Kenya to partner with us. So, State House is different from the Office of the President. The Office of the President is where official functions happen, and it requires staffing and funding for its activities. Remember that offices of chiefs, assistant chiefs and other offices fall under the Office of the President. We house the President and the presidency at State House, so that when they meet delegations from outside the country, they can host them. So, they need to be adequately funded. With those remarks, I support.

Thank you. Member for Ijara.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, thank you for giving me this opportunity. I rise to support the budget allocation for State House and the Office of the President. As we all know, State House is a symbol of unity and the house that hosts our President. Because of its status, we need to allocate funds to it, so that we have proper service delivery. I also support the Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriations Committee who said that there are big pending bills left behind by the previous administration. The Kenya Kwanza Government is ready to correct that mess and that is why there is a small increment in the budget for State House. With those remarks, I support the budget allocation for State House and the Office of the President.

We are getting to a close on this one. Hon. Members, I will give the last chance to the Chairperson of the Public Investments Committee on Social Services, Administration and Agriculture.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. A lot has been said, especially by the Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriations Committee. Maybe, Members are missing certain points. The money allocated to each Vote follows the programmes under the Vote. There are more than eight directorates under the same office. They also include packages given to retired presidents as well as the leader of the Azimio la Umoja-One Kenya Alliance, who draws his retirement benefits from that same Vote. To be honest, the allocation is very small. I support the allocations.

Thank you. The very last one is the Deputy Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, there is a big difference between State House and the Office of the President. The State of Kenya, as a unitary State, has its seat at State House. State House operates several programmes, including visits of foreign heads of state. When the President visits a foreign country, he goes as “the Head of State”. The Office of the President that is located at Harambee House is where the Head of Public Service sits. The Head of Public Service, who is the Chief of Staff, controls many programmes from that end. So, you cannot say that State House is equivalent to the Office of The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

the President. They are different and distinct from each other. Each one deserves a budget of its own.

Order, Members. Hon. Mwenje, you are right here and you know the situation. So, do not shout from your seat. Hon. Members, allow us to make progress.

Put the Question!

There are Members who have shown interest in this matter. I will give opportunity to a few Members to contribute. Member for Butula.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I want to comment on the State Department for Correctional Services, which I think is underfunded. This is a very big department which does a lot of work. This department has been ignored to the point that those who work in the Kenya Prisons Service stay in very dilapidated houses.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, as much as we approve these funds, I ask the Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee to look into this allocation in future.

Member for Kericho.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I want to appreciate and support the allocation to the State Department for Correctional Services. The prison services have improved at the moment. I believe this allocation will improve it more. Social amenities and food in prisons have improved. Just like what the other Member has said, we should add this allocation in future so that we can improve their houses.

Hon. Members, I will close this discussion at this point.

There is a proposed amendment. Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule be amended in Vote 1024 by— (a) deleting the figure Ksh4,264,794,456 in column six (Gross Estimates) under Programme 0605000 (Migration and Citizen Services Management), and substituting therefor the figure Ksh3,514,794,456. (b) deleting the figure Ksh1,125,000,000 in column seven (Gross Capital Estimates) under Programme 0605000 (Migration and Citizen Services Management) and substituting therefor the figure Ksh1,875,000,000.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, as you are aware - and we stated it when we were debating the Report - currently, we have allowed the State Department for Immigration and Citizen Services to also enjoy part of the money they collect through Appropriation-in-Aid (A-in-A). In regards to passports, some of the printers are not working and there are no papers. Therefore, we have necessitated the State Department to draw some funds from the money they collect as A-in-A so that they can be efficient. We are re-arranging Ksh750 million in A-in-A in regard to Development and Recurrent expenditures. We are only re-arranging within the same Vote.

Member for Narok West, you will support the amendment after I propose it, but not at this point.

Member for Ol Jorok.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

You are totally out of order, Hon. Kangogo. You are rigging the system.

We have a challenge with the technology here. Can the Member for Ol Jorok come to the Dispatch Box? We have some challenges. We can see you on the screen, but some microphones are not working. We will use the Dispatch Box, if necessary. Member for Ol Jorok, proceed.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I rise to support this allocation. As we are aware, we are currently experiencing delays in passport processing. It is our hope that once we approve this allocation, that problem will be fixed and our citizens will access immigration services in terms of timely passport issuance.

Vice-Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriations Committee, Hon. Mary Emaase.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I want to support this amendment. As we are all aware, it takes very long for Kenyans to get their passports after they apply. There are Kenyans who have waited for close to a year. We were informed that there were challenges with the equipment. The printers require replacement. Some of them are very old machines. This enhancement is very important, so that the State Department can have enough resources for them to procure the necessary printers, so that Kenyans can get timely services and passports as soon as they apply for them. They should take the shortest time possible. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you. Member for Buuri.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I would like to congratulate the Chair. For the first time, we have seen proper and prudent re- allocation and management of resources. We will continue encouraging that where money is being collected at source, some institutions require a lot of support. This is one of them. Therefore, this is very nice. We should encourage every institution to collect money for better service delivery.

Thank you. Member for Ruiru.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I take this opportunity to thank the contributor who has just talked about problems at the Ministry of Foreign and Diaspora Affairs. I am in the Committee on Diaspora Affairs and Migrant Workers and I am aware we are losing a lot of money because of the poor equipment that are not working promptly. People who want to go abroad to work need to have their passports and other documents processed. This money is not even enough. In future, we need to allocate more money because we need enough money for us to deal with diaspora matters. I support.

Member for Marakwet East, Hon. David Bowen.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I support the amendment by the Chairman. The practice has been that whenever a Ministry or institution generates A-in-A, the National Treasury takes the entire amount. I support the idea that part of A-in-A should be used by the Ministry generating it. Secondly, we have seen problems at the State Department for Immigration and Citizen Services, including lack of papers, machines breaking down and backlogs. Even in the constituencies, some of the offices that issue birth certificates and death certificate do not have papers. I hope this amendment will help the State Department to streamline its operations and continue to serve Kenyans on a timely basis.

Alright, Hon. Members.

Put the Question.

Member for Bumula.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. First, I appreciating the good work being done by our brothers and sisters in the National Police Service (NPS). However, if you walk around this country, you will realise that many police officers do not even have housing. Their salary is very little. Therefore, I expected the Budget The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

and Appropriations Committee to allocate them a bigger amount so as to enhance their housing and raise their salaries. Hon. Nyoro, the Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee, I expected a bigger figure to, at least, bring dignity to these officers. With those remarks, I support, but we should increase the figure.

Member for Seme.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. Firstly, I appreciate the fact that for the first time, the National Police Service has a Vote they control themselves. Secondly, they should make effort to have programmes so that it is easy to evaluate them. Thirdly, they have big problems with infrastructure. There are places where whole police divisions live in and operate from tin huts. With the money allocated to them this time, we expect infrastructure, particularly offices and houses, to be improved. With those remarks, I support.

Member for Limuru.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I rise to support this Vote. Police officers are very essential in providing security to this nation. Many officers do not have appropriate clothing for work. They also walk to work. I hope this money will be used to address some of the pressing problems that police officers have been facing.

Finally, Member for Tinderet.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I support this proposal. The National Police Service now have a Vote they control and use to run their affairs quite well. They will have enough resources so that they are not under the control of people outside the National Police Service. Previously, police officers would be controlled by the political class and other people outside the National Police Service. I support.

Member for Luanda.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady, for giving me this opportunity. Looking at the budget allocation to this Department, I am concerned that a lot of new administrative units have come into existence in the recent past. I want to believe that when the Budget and Appropriations Committee was preparing these Estimates, they considered supporting these administrative units so that they can provide services to Kenyans. I support.

Member for Fafi, Hon. Farah Yakub. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I rise to support the Vote because there is need to increase Government co-ordination and operationalise new sub-counties that were gazetted two years ago. For example, in my constituency, there is Fafi Sub-County, which was operationalised in 2017. There is a Deputy County Commissioner, but staff to support him have not been recruited, and there are no vehicles. Also, in most constituencies and sub-counties, there is need to increase sub-locations and locations. There is need to increase support for national Government activities in those areas. I support the Vote.

Hon. Martha Wangari): Majority Whip, your name is on the requests list. Member for Turkana Central.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. First of all, I approve this allocation knowing that new administrative units have been created. Turkana County is already a beneficiary of four sub-counties. Secondly, there is an ongoing security operation in the North Rift, which is one of our key agendas for those living there. We pray that enough funds are allocated to enable those carrying out the operation in those areas to operate smoothly to achieve the envisioned objectives. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairperson.

Hon. Martha Wangari): Member for Dagoretti North.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I rise to support and appreciate the Vote. I request to see our chiefs continue with the work they are doing. There is increased insecurity and as we give them resources, we need to rethink about their offices. In as much as the NG-CDF helps, the ministry should start thinking about this because some areas lack title deeds and are worse than others, especially those in Nairobi. I support.

Hon. Martha Wangari): Member for Kiambaa.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I rise to support the Vote that the National Police Service has been assigned. I hope the Service has been allocated enough funds to enable them to execute their national security mandate in terms of ensuring that police officers have vehicles for maintaining security in their areas of jurisdiction. I support the Vote.

Hon. Martha Wangari): Member for Samburu North.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I also rise to support the Vote, hoping that National Police Reservists (NPRs), who are bona fide police officers, will also benefit from the increased allocation in a timely and fair manner. I also hope that the administrative units that have not been operational since 2017 will be operationalised. There are people living in vast tracts of land, especially in Samburu North Constituency, who do not enjoy Government services because of the non-operationalisation of new administrative units. I support the Vote.

Hon. Martha Wangari): Hon. Members, I will now put the Question.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Chairperson of Budget and Appropriations Committee, you have a proposed amendment.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. If you will permit me, I request to comment before I move the amendment. We respect all the opinions we received from the Members. It has been a very interactive process. When we tabled the Report, we debated it exhaustively. Next week, we will have another opportunity to debate the Appropriations Bill extensively. So, I humbly request Members to look at the Votes we have to pass today. At this pace, we may not do much. I request the Members to permit us to move on, especially where there are no amendments. We can have one Member from the Government side speaking, and another one from the other side, so that we can make progress.

Move your amendment.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move the following amendment: THAT, the Schedule be amended in Vote 1032 by deleting the figure Ksh1,678,120,000 in column 6 (Gross Current Estimates) under Programme 0712000, Devolution Services, and substituting therefor the figure Ksh1,878,120,000. The essence of this is in the context of the other amendment that we moved regarding the Office of the Deputy President, where we are moving the Vote of Ksh200 million and consolidating the same to the State Department of Devolution. Thank you, Hon. Chairman.

Hon. Members, the only amendment that we have is on Programme 1013000 – Integrated Regional Development. The other two, have no proposed amendments. Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriations Committee.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairperson. I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule be amended in Vote 1036, by deleting the figure Ksh3,905,590,000 in Column 7 (Gross Capital Estimates) under Programme 1013000 Integrated Regional Development, and substituting thereof the figure Ksh4,106,590,000. The essence of this is moving some little money to the ASALs Department to support other better programmes.

Hon. Members, as guided earlier, if you have something to say on this one, kindly press the intervention button. Is the Majority Party Whip there? If he is not, we can have the Member for Kimilili.

I am here.

(Hon. Martha Wangari

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I support the amount that has been appropriated. The State Department is an integral body of our country in terms of budget and stuff. It is important for us to review and re-look at it better. I support.

Member for Sigor.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I want to support the amendment proposed by the Budget and Appropriation Committee Chairperson. The Integrated Regional Development Authority requires more funding to undertake programmes that touch on peoples’ livelihoods. This may not be enough, but I support. Thank you very much.

Member for Ruiru.

Thank you. I want to support by putting this notice to this Honourable House. On matters diaspora, you find that there are more than 4,000,000 Kenyans living outside the country, and if you look at the management of diaspora and consular affairs, there are many areas in the world where we are not represented. I stand to say that this money is not enough and, in future, we should add this money so that we are able to be compliant. Thank you.

Hon Beatrice Elachi.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. As we do this, we have to always appreciate what the diaspora has done. Many of our embassies have houses that are very dilapidated

Thank you.

VOTE 1064 - STATE DEPARTMENT FOR TECHNICAL VOCATIONAL EDUCATION AND TRAINING The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

THAT, a sum not exceeding Ksh28,323,796,448 be issued from the Consolidated Fund to complete the sum necessary to meet the expenditure (Recurrent and Development) during the year ending 30th June, 2024 in respect of Vote 1064 (State Department for Technical Vocational Education and Training).

Member for Emuhaya Constituency.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. Let me appreciate the Budget and Appropriations Committee for increasing this Vote Head in order to deal with the Technical and Vocational Education and Training (TVETs). But as we do that, I hope the increment in allocation will facilitate every region to get a TVET. Above all, to have those TVETs get facilities and equipment for them to operate because currently, they do not have the facilities. I also want to appreciate that the remuneration for the TVET teachers has been improved, but there is still room to do more. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

Hon. Member for Bumula Constituency. Not on this?

No. Next one. I have got an amendment.

Member for Mathare Constituency.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I have looked at the figures allocated to this, and my comments are that the figures are way below, considering that we still have many constituencies that are yet to have TVETs, including Homa Bay Town. Hon. Kaluma here confirms it. There are also places where TVETs have been done to a certain level, and funding has been coming in bits and pieces. Given what this Government has said they want to do with Small and Medium Enterprises (SMEs), small businesses, employment for young people, and skills acquisition can only be achieved if you put money into completing TVETs like the one in Mathare Constituency which I represent, the Homa Bay one and all the others that are not done. I see the Leader of the Majority Party agreeing with me. I, therefore, suggest that this should have been enhanced. Thank you.

The Leader of the Majority Party.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I rise to support, and fully agree with what the Member for Mathare Constituency has said. We must allocate money to complete the TVET in Mathare Constituency.

This is because Mathare Constituency is one of the constituencies in this City that has many young men and women who would benefit from the skills being taught at our TVET centres. It is rather sad that in the last regime…

Member for Nyeri Constituency, I see your hand. Please do not lift up your hand. I can see you.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, this particular vote suffered immensely out of politics. Money was being removed from this vote with the apparent reasoning that it was William Ruto, the then Deputy President, who was pushing The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

through the agenda of TVETs. I am glad that today, as a House, we rise to the occasion to realise that this was not a William Ruto agenda; this was an agenda for Kenya. It was an agenda for our young men and women who languish in poverty because they cannot access employment opportunities or even employ themselves because they lack the requisite skills.

The investment in our TVET institutions will power the housing agenda we are about to introduce as per the Finance Bill. Last week, I heard a very senior Member of this House, with whom we have been in this House for three terms, tell his constituents that building houses cannot create jobs. He led a chorus asking how houses will create jobs for lawyers like Hon. Kaluma. Hon. Kaluma knows that lawyers get jobs in housing through conveyancing. He was asking how engineers would get jobs through housing. Engineers like Kiragu here will tell you that civil engineers, mechanical engineers and electrical engineers in plumbing and installation of lifts will all access job opportunities. I am glad we converge with my brother, the Member for Mathare, on this issue on TVET. I can see the Member for Homa Bay Town is also itching to contribute. It is because it is such an important agenda for our young people. Even as we begin the debate on the Finance Bill, I hope and pray we will appreciate that the Votes we are supplying money to today must be financed through the Finance Bill. It is by raising money from the people of Kenya through taxation. I, therefore, invite the Hon. Member for Mathare to be very active tomorrow and the day after, during the Finance Bill debate, to contribute and ensure that we not only supply money to these Votes, but also raise that money to change the lives of the people of Kikuyu, Mathare and the young men and women of our country.

I thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I support.

For those coming in as the Committee of Supply goes on, we agreed to use the intervention button so that I pick you, if you want to speak to a specific issue. Member for Kuria West, Hon. Mathias Robi. Sorry, your microphone is becoming a moving target.

Thank you for giving me this opportunity. I also stand here to support the allocation to TVETs. We know that this has uplifted many of our students. We know that even this can be increased to support our people.

Member for Nyeri, Hon. Rahab Mukami.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I support the allocation to TVETs. We considered that many TVET colleges have stalled. The buildings are not complete, and the complete ones do not have training materials. It is one of the agenda in our Manifesto. We want to make sure that our young people get technical and business skills to make them have gainful employment.

Member for Masinga.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I support this Vote that has increased money for TVETs because this is where our young people get skills. I am a proud Member of Parliament to announce that last year’s Masinga TVET class produced the best student in Kenya. The Chinese Government sponsored the student to further his studies through a full scholarship. Those TVET institutes are helping our young people who cannot proceed to universities. We are creating jobs for them through their skills.

Thank you. I will give a chance to the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Education, Hon. Melly.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I rise to support that the State Department for TVETs gets an increased allocation because we have hundreds of youths who need to be skilled for the market. We will need many plumbers, artisans, painters and builders for the housing development project, so that the market will not The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

lack skilled manpower. It will also be essential for this country to produce people with the requisite skills that we can export to markets in the region like Uganda and other countries to go and work. My Committee visited Germany and Western Europe, where we observed lack of skilled manpower. We need to produce enough manpower to feed the ageing populations in other parts of the world.

I support the allocations. We even need to increase them. Thank you.

We are almost at the end of debate on this Vote. Member for Homa Bay Town.

Thank you for giving me the last chance, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I support the allocation to the State Department for Technical Vocational Education and Training for the reason that has been given. The current President has visited Homa Bay Town Constituency twice in my absence. During those visits, he has seen the need for a technical and vocational training facility in Homa Bay Town, the Headquarters of Homa Bay County. You know what that means. Many idle youths are not trained and are jobless. I agree with the people who have said that we should not only allocate funds to this Vote, but if there are opportunities and resources in future, we should also allocate the same. Let me underscore that once that money is supplied, it should be disbursed. I am tired of visiting the Ministry of Education, particularly this Department, over that need in Homa Bay. Just honour the word of the President so that the youths of Homa Bay Town can also be trained. Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I fully support the allocations.

Thank you.

There is a proposed amendment by Hon. Wamboka, Member for Bumula.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule be amended in Vote 1065 by– (a) deleting the figure Ksh124,039,641,117 in column 6 titled Gross Current Estimates under Programme 0504000 University Education and substituting thereof the figure Ksh123,439,641,117. (b) deleting the figure Ksh3,455,000,000 in column 7 titled Gross Capital Estimates under Programme 0504000 University Education and substituting thereof the figure Ksh4,055,000,000. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, the proposed amendment intends to reduce Ksh600 million from the allocation of Government sponsored students who are admitted to the private universities and re-allocate the same amount for infrastructural support for public universities. We all agree that our public universities are struggling due to under-funding, which also affects the ability to expand and rehabilitate the existing infrastructure. This has, in turn, compromised the quality of education that our public universities offer. Though Ksh600 million is not adequate, it will go a long way in supporting the selected key universities - Moi University, Egerton University, the University of Nairobi, Chuka University, Masinde Muliro University, Maasai Mara University, Tom Mboya University in Homa Bay County and Kibabii University - which have serious infrastructural gaps. The allocation to private universities in the last five years to support Government sponsored students who are admitted there has been surrounded by grey areas, which we, as a House, should not allow. There are a lot of inconsistencies in that support to private universities, which can lead to the loss of public funds. We, as a House and Committee, are also making a pronouncement that the National Treasury should make no new allocations to private universities without the express approval of this House. The National Treasury should not use Article 223 of the Constitution as an avenue to allocate more resources to private universities until all the grey areas surrounding that funding are addressed and a go-ahead to allocate is granted by this House. The Leader of the Majority Party will help us pin down the Cabinet Secretary for the National Treasury to adhere to this.

Wind up, Hon. Member.

Bumula, DAP-K): The Public Investments Committee on Governance and Education has resolved to order for forensic audit to be undertaken…

Order, Member. Please, do not put up a Motion. Wind up on the amendment.

Bumula, DAP-K): I beg to move, and I welcome…

The amendment does not need to be seconded. Please take your seat, Hon. Member. I will give the opportunity to the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Education.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

Hold on, Hon. Member.

The Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Education has two minutes. We agreed on a maximum of two minutes.

Yes. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. First, I commend Hon. Wamboka for moving this amendment, which I support. The Departmental Committee on Education examined the Ministries, Departments and Agencies (MDAs). We went through every State Department and realised that certain State Departments waste public funds. One of them is the Government allocation to private universities. When we went through it, we realised they did not have the correct number of students. When we went to find out the number of students in those universities, they were less than what we had. We asked those universities to give us the actual number of students and their admission numbers, but theyare yet to do so. Public universities have been suffering from under-funding because of the influence peddling by private universities, which get more funds than they require. In fact, when we went ahead, they had been allocated Ksh4.2 billion and yet, they have no first-year students this year. Last year, they were allocated Ksh3.2 billion. So, they were allocated Ksh1 billion more. When we investigated that, we found out that the student The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

population was less than what they had given out. Up to today, they are yet to give us the list of the students. They do not want us to have it. Two, public universities like Moi University, Egerton University and Masinde Muliro University, where we allocated those resources, are critically under-funded. All those universities can be salvaged if we make sure that a forensic audit is done on what all the private universities were given and establish how that money was utilised, especially during the five years that they were allocated the funds, so that we can get value for the money that was given. I support. Thank you.

Member for Njoro. He is not ready. The Leader of the Majority Party.

Kikuyu UDA): Hon. Temporary Chairlady, allow me to support the amendment. I like the wording of Hon. Wamboka’s amendment. That, even the national Treasury should be debarred from allocating further resources to the vote of private universities without prior approval of this House. It is time this House took its work seriously. We pride ourselves as a budget-making House, but we continuously allow the National Treasury to abuse our mandate by allocating money pursuant to Article 223 of the Constitution without verification. Last week, the Cabinet Secretary for Education was here. If you may remember, I put it to him that there are, indeed, cartels that have taken over the running of the State Department for University Education. That is surprising. If you look at the documents tabled by the Cabinet Secretary, in the last Financial Year, Mt Kenya University was allocated Ksh731 million, when Karatina University was down on its knees.

Shame!

Kikuyu UDA): Hon. Temporary Chairlady, Egerton and Moi Universities are being closed down. Our premier university, The University of Nairobi… Yes, it is “The University of Nairobi.” You know I went to the University of Nairobi.

The premier university, which I am sure the Hon. Temporary Chairlady attended, is financially on its knees. It is unethical as leaders to allocate money to private businesses under the pretext – and I say this without flinching an eyelid – that we are funding what we call: “Publicly funded university students in private universities.” I put it to the Cabinet Secretary, Ministry of Education last week that, until they give us a forensic audit showing us the students in those private universities… If you go to some of those private universities that are getting Ksh700 million funding, the money is being allocated to mere numbers and not students. There are no students in the lecture rooms. Look at the figure going to Kabarak University. When we talked about state capture in this country, people thought we were playing politics. State capture is real. Business people have taken over the running of Government Ministries. Business cartels have taken over legislating and appropriating resources on behalf of the people. We Members here are charged with appropriating money, not business people out there who are appropriating money for profit and not for the public good. We must now rise to the occasion and appropriate money appropriately for the public good and not for private gain. I support this amendment and want to re-emphasise that the national Treasury…

Summarise.

Kikuyu UDA): The National Treasury must not allocate any further resources to this State Department for Private Universities without prior approval of this House so that the report of the forensic audit we have sought from the Cabinet Secretary The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

is tabled before this House and checked by the Public Investments Committee on Governance and Education that Hon. Wamboka Chairs. I am glad that Hon. Wamboka has taken up this matter with the energy that it deserves.

I want to encourage Hon. Wamboka that, that is meaningful oversight. Overseeing the Government is not shouting in funerals; it is doing what you are doing. Thank you.

Thank you. Before I put the Question, I will give the Member for Dagoretti South an opportunity.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I do not want to delay anyone on this debate. Mine is to support the amendment. Why it is important to support this amendment is because, as Kenyans, we know what happened to the health service in this country. The moment we support private entities at the expense of public entities, that is the day we will start walking down the road of killing public entities. The Government’s work is to support public institutions, public investments and public entities. The Government is not in place to support private entities. I congratulate the Mover of this amendment and support it. Thank you.

Reading the mood of the House, I put the question.

Member for Mathare.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I support the Vote, but the allocation is too little. The allocation to the basic education sector should, at least, be Ksh250 billion. I have two short reasons that I want to advance in this regard. It has been close to 10 years, with a capitation of Ksh1,410, notwithstanding the fact that there is inflation and other factors. If you put inflation into consideration, capitation for each student in public schools should be about Ksh7,400. If you consider CBC, capitation for a student should be, at least, Ksh15,000 and not Ksh1,410. Hon. Temporary Chairlady, if you look at the School Feeding Programme and what has been allocated to it, you will find that only 2.3 million of about 17 million students in schools will benefit. What happens to the other estimated three to six million out the total 17 million, including students in Mathare and in informal settlements who will not access and benefit from this? There is little or no indication that sanitary towels have been properly catered for in this Budget on sanitary education. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Lastly, we have a category of schools that are not contemplated under the Basic Education Act. The Basic Education Act contemplates schools to mean either public or private. About 1.8 million children in Kenya today go to schools that are neither public nor private, schools that are known as Alternative Provision for Basic Education (APBET). In Mathare alone, I have 80,000 students, 56,000 of whom are in alternative schools. They are not recognised, there is no mapping, there is no recognition and, therefore, they are not even capitated. I suggest that the allocation to basic education is seriously under-funded and that we should consider the budgets that we have allocated. I know we need roads, and I need roads in Mathare. But where are our priorities when we have close to Khs250 billion for roads as opposed to basic education? So, Hon. Deputy Chairlady, I want us to do a serious reconsideration of priorities.

Hon. Dorothy Ikiara, two minutes.

It should be one minute.

Thank you Hon. Deputy Chairlady. I too, stand to support the allocation budgeted for the State Department for Basic Education. It is important to know the Government of Kenya has embarked on free and compulsory basic education. It is important that this Department is properly funded so that we can realise that commitment. I support this budgetary allocation. Thank you.

There are some proposed amendments. Mover?

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule be amended in Vote 1071 by— (a) Deleting the figure Ksh67,450,462,127 in column 6 (Gross Current Estimates) under Programme 0717000 (General Administration, Planning and Support Services) and substituting thereof the figure Ksh67, 350,462,127. (b) Deleting the figure Ksh9,366,602,765 in column 7 (Gross Capital Estimates) under Programme 0717000 (General Administration, Planning and Support Services) and substituting thereof the figure Ksh9, 266,602,765. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

(c) Deleting the figure Ksh36,320,482,310 in column 7 (Gross Capital Estimates) under Programme 0718000 (Public Financial Management) and substituting thereof the figure Ksh34,720,482,310. Hon. Temporary Chairlady, what we are doing is just aligning some programmes to other bottom-⁠up projects. We are also transferring some little money to other urgent interventions. Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

Hon. Temporary Chairlady.

Member for Mbeere North.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I want to put a disclaimer on economic and financial policy formulation and management. Senior Ministry officials serving under this docket have let down the people of the Republic of Kenya in the past. We are appropriating Ksh9 billion so that they serve the people of Kenya properly by ensuring we have proper economic and financial policies that can take our economy out of the woods. Therefore, they must make sure that the Ksh9 billion is properly utilised. They have not done a good job in the past. It is important we have some shake-up and realignment of those who have been serving under economic and financial policy formulation management.

Member for Molo.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. Mine is to thank the Budget and Appropriations Committee for taking into consideration the view that you said. Part of this reallocation goes to migrating our accounting system from our cash to the accrual system. We hope this will also handle the big problem of pending bills that we have in this country. Part of this reallocation also goes to developing a programme where civil servants seamlessly move from the payroll directly into a pension scheme when they retire. That is so that the pain our teachers and retirees suffer when trying to claim their pensions becomes a problem of the past. With that, I support.

There is one with an amendment. Mover.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I beg to move that the programme be amended as follows: The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

THAT, the Schedule be amended in Vote 1072 by deleting the figure Ksh2,533,750,000 in column 7 (Gross Capital Estimates), under Programme 0707000 National Statistical Information Services, and substituting therefor the figure Ksh2,433,750,000. This is just realignment of the budget as we debated last week. On the same breath, because we are still on the same department, I want to bring to the attention of this House that we have added Ksh10 billion that is going to the NG-CDF, which technically means that every constituency in Kenya will enhance community development. Regarding the new formula in the NG-CDF, every constituency will get between Ksh25 million to Ksh40 million in the next Financial Year.

Thank you, Chairman.

Hon. Oluoch.

Thank you, the Temporary Chairman. I am being reminded that you need to announce the change of Chair so that Members do not call you Madam Chair. On this allocation, there is an over-supply. I hope the Budget and Appropriation Committee Chairperson is listening because there is an over-supply in this Vote for the following reasons: Health services are devolved functions. There is no reason for the Ministry to retain Ksh116 billion at the Headquarters while basic education needs to be supplied are close to a similar amount. Whatever is happening in Kenya Medical Supplies Agency (KEMSA) indicates why this administration and the previous administrations have maintained money at the headquarters in a completely devolved function. We should maintain public health, disaster management, policy and administrative costs at a bare minimum.

So, I reject this. It is an over-supply. This money should go to the devolved functions or to basic education. I submit.

Hon. (Dr) Pukose. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I support this allocation to the Ministry of Health. I want to inform my colleague that, as much as health is devolved, the Ministry of Health houses the national referral hospital like the Kenyatta National Hospital (KNH), Moi Teaching and Referral Hospital (MTRH), Kenyatta University Teaching, Referral and Research Hospital (KUTRRH), Mwai Kibaki Hospital, KNH and many others. We have other institutions like Kenya Medical Research Institute (KEMRI) and Kenya BioVax Institute, which manufactures vaccines and many other Semi- Autonomous Government Agencies (SAGAs) under the State Department of Medical Services. Those SAGAs require resources for policy and standards. Under our Constitution, training is a national function. We have the Kenya Medical Training Colleges (KMTCs). Hon. Members have built KMTCs in the country. Those institutions require…

Hon. (Dr.) Pukose, we had general debate during Budget Estimates. Let us speak for a maximum of two minutes, if not one minute. Keep it short and sweet.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. My colleague should know that this money is meant for those services. Money for the counties has already been allocated to the counties.

Lastly, let us have Hon. Didmus Barasa.

Thank you. I support and hope that even the Ministry will move further to ensure that standards are met. Some Governors are putting up very funny buildings and calling them clinics. We should have standards on what qualifies to be called a clinic. In some areas, even women refuse to be admitted to some of these clinics because they appear to have lost hope if one is admitted in such structures. The Ministry should go further in designing and deciding the standards for healthcare facilities. I support.

This programme has amendments. Chair of the Budget and Appropriations Committee.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule be amended in Vote 1091 by deleting the figure Ksh166,851,000,000 in column 7 (Gross Capital Estimates) under programme 0202000 (Road Transport) and substituting therefor with the figure Ksh167,951,000,000. The essence of this amendment is to capacitate the State Department to finish the many on-going road projects. It is also instructive to note that we have allocated an unprecedented figure to the State Department for Roads this year, focusing on completing the on-going road projects. We are no longer allocating monies to new projects because we need the Kenyan people to enjoy the utility of the roads whose construction has already been started. Out of the Ksh249 billion allocated to the State Department, about Ksh83 billion is from the Fuel Levy Fund, about Ksh80 billion from the Government of Kenya and about Ksh75 billion from development partners. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman.

The Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Roads and Infrastructure, Hon. George Kariuki (GK).

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I rise to support. The roads sub-sector is a key enabler to the realisation of the Bottom-up Economic Transformation Agenda of the Kenya Kwanza Government. With good road allocations, our people can access markets, schools, and healthcare services. We will also be able to access our farms and other facilities to help our people better their lives. Any additional allocation is greatly welcome by our Committee, and I thank the Chairman for the additional allocation. We will distribute this money in the right way. The road sub-sector has pending bills of about Ksh160 billion. The latest allocation of Ksh250 billion may look like a lot of money, but when we factor in the unpaid bills and payments that are committed to our roads, it is not a lot of money. We would have wanted this Department to be allocated about Ksh500 billion (half a trillion) to be able to carry out the on-going road works. I support.

There is an amendment to this. Mover.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule be amended in Vote 1093 by deleting the figure Ksh27,373,521,755 in column 6 titled Gross Recurrent Estimates under Programme 0220000 Shipping and Maritime Affairs and substituting therefor the figure Ksh2,494,070,000.

The essence of this is that we are moving Ksh24.8 billion from fuel stabilisation to cater for arrears under the fuel subsidy that Kenyans enjoyed during this Financial Year that is about to end. That is why we keep saying that the previous administration promised Kenyans subsidies, but the current administration is paying for them.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairman.

Hon. Temporary Chairman and Hon. Ichung’wah, the allocation of Ksh29 billion is well-grounded but with a rider. I suggest that Ksh20 billion should be ring-fenced to cushion taxpayers who would have paid 3 per cent, 1.5 per cent or whatever that percentage is instead of burdening them on what they have not expressed as a basic need at this time. Article 43 of the Constitution does not discuss the right to own a house. It talks about giving access to a house. That includes even renting. It is okay to have affordable housing that people can rent. If this money cannot be ring fenced, I would like to suggest that the Government adopts a phased-out model in which they use it to provide housing to police officers and teachers in this country so that we can see whether this housing model will work before we can tax Kenyans.

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Hon. Johana Ng’eno, are you the Chair of the Departmental Committee which is in charge?

Yes.

Proceed.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I appreciate the concerns of the Member who has just spoken. The Ksh29 billion allocated in this particular Financial Year is not only for housing. There are too many State Departments where we deal with all these amounts. There is social housing, affordable housing, police housing, markets and stormwater. There is also money that goes to the counties in the form of grants or donor funds. That money does not go to housing only.

The point is made, Hon. Johana Ng’eno.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman.

There is no interest to contribute.

Put the Question!

Hon. Kangogo Bowen. Who is the Chair of the Budget and Appropriations Committee? He has an amendment. Sorry, Hon. Kangogo Bowen. The Chair of Budget and Appropriations Committee will move his amendment first.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule be amended in Vote 1109 by deleting the figure Ksh70,000,000 in column 7 (Gross Capital Estimates) under Programme 1001000 (General Administration, Planning and Support Services) and substituting therefor the figure Ksh190,000,000. Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairman. Sorry, let me continue.

Sorry, Hon. Chairman. In terms of procedure, we have to finish with the first amendment.

Mover.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I beg to move the following amendments to the programme: THAT, the Schedule be amended in Vote 1109 by — (b) deleting the figure Ksh13,296,000,000 in column 7 (Gross Capital Estimates), under Programme 1004000 Water Resources Management, and substituting therefor the figure Ksh12,446,000,000.

Mover.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I beg to move the following amendments to the programme: THAT, the Schedule be amended in Vote 1109 by — (d) deleting the figure Ksh42,578,000,000 in column 7 (Gross Capital Estimates), under Programme 1017000 Water and Sewerage Infrastructure Development and substituting, therefor, the figure Ksh43,308,000,000.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairman.

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Put the Question.

Chair for the relevant Committee, is it Hon. John Kiarie?

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I am also with those who are saying that we can put the Question on this. The import of allocating this money to this sector is that it cuts across all other sectors. It is in great support of the manifesto that is moving towards the ‘digital superhighway’ including installation of 100,000 kilometres of fibre optic, the Constituency Innovation Hub in our constituencies and even the Wi-fi going to our villages.

Chairman, the point is now made.

Propose the Question.

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Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I beg to move: THAT, the Programme 0208000 (Information and Communication Service) be amended by deleting the figure Ksh885,500,000 in Column 7 (Gross Capital Estimates) and substituting therefore the figure Ksh444,500,000.

You can move both Amendments because they relate to the same budget item. They are both under programme 0208000. So, you can move both. Move the next one. You have the microphone, Chairman.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairman. Apologies. I was talking to the Chairman in charge of that Department. I beg to move: THAT, the Programme 0208000 (Information and Communication Service) be amended by deleting the figure Ksh5,585,833,488 in Column 6 (Gross Current Estimates), and substituting therefore the figure Ksh6,034,833,488. Hon. Temporary Chairman, we are basically re-arranging the monies from rRcurrent to Development and nothing else.

The Committee Chairman, Hon. Kiarie.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I am in support with the amendment that has been moved by the Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriation Committee. For the information of this House, the import of this is that it does not change the monies allocated to the sector. It is a rearrangement to ensure that for the money that is allocated, the right amount goes to development and a sizeable amount goes into medium monitoring recurrent expenditure. I am in support Hon. Temporary Chairman.

Hon. Anthony Oluoch.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I want to support this. This is an important intervention for constituencies such as mine where we have many talented young people who earn a living from sports. There is an under supply in this particular allocation which perhaps the Committee could check so that in future it could be realised. We remember that in the last Parliament we removed the sports lottery from this Ministry and took it to the National Treasury. That particular programme should be brought back to this so that we can have proper allocations to ensure our constituencies have sports stadiums and our young people benefit from their sports skills. I support it.

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This one has an amendment. Mover.

Prog ramme 0905000 – General Administration, Planning and Support Services

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I beg to move: THAT, the programme be amended as below: In Vote 1134 under programme 0905000 (General Administration, Planning and Support Services) by deleting the figure Ksh199,784,949 million in column 7 (Gross Current Estimates) and substituting thereof the figure Ksh249,784,000. Hon. Temporary Chairman, this is just rearranging within the same ministry so that we capacitate the department to run its affairs.

Mover to move amendment.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move that the programme be amended as follows: THAT, the Schedule be amended in Vote 1152, by deleting the figure Ksh41,076,000,000 in column 7 (Gross Capital Estimates), under Programme 0213000 Power Transmission and Distribution, and substituting therefor the figure Ksh41,190,000,000.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, this is a realignment within the department and additional resources in consultation with the Chairman of that Department.

Chair, do you want to speak to this?

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I concur with the Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriations Committee. I also want to thank the Committee for the consideration of the increments because you understand this is one of the Votes that has a lot of interest from Members. This is where your transformers, Last Mile projects and the street lighting projects are. Hon. Chairman, I support.

Chair, the point is made.

Mover

Kiharu, UDA): Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move that the Programme be amended as follows: THAT, the Schedule be amended in in Vote 1169 by— (a) deleting the figure Ksh1,466,000,000 in column 7 (Gross Capital Estimates), under Programme 0107000 General Administration Planning and Support Services, and substituting therefor figure Ksh1,533,000,000. Thank you very much.

( Question of the amendment proposed)

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule be amended in Vote 1169 by: (b) deleting the figure Ksh27,895,691,275 in column 7 (Gross Capital Estimates), under Programme 0108000 Crop Development and Management, and substituting therefor the figure, Ksh28,083,691,275.

There is no amendment.

Mover.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule be amended in Vote 1175 by deleting the figure Ksh448,960,000 in column seven (Gross Capital Estimates), under Programme 0320000 Industrial Promotion and Development, and substituting therefore the figure Ksh5,148,960,000.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, what we are doing, basically, is that we are moving the industrial and aggregation centres from the State Department of Trade to the right State Department of Industry.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule be amended in Vote 1177 by deleting the figure Ksh11,252,000,000 in column 7 (Gross Capital Estimates), under Programme 0322000 Investment Development and Promotion, and substituting therefor the figure Ksh6,552,000,000. Hon. Temporary Chairman, what we are doing is basically moving the industrial and aggregation centres from the State Department of Trade to the right State Department of Industry.

Mover.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, Vote 1185 be amended by deleting Ksh4,388,496,585 and substituting therefore Ksh4,358,496,585 in respect of Programme 0908000.

Let us allow the Chair to speak first. Hon. Alice Ng’ang’a.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairman. It is good so that the Inua Jamii Programme can be pushed to another level as well as our children. Right now, our children are really suffering due to lack of food and money for education. I support.

Hon. Anthony Oluoch.

Even as I support, this is one of the ingenious inventions of the previous administration. I am happy this administration has picked this up for administrative continuity. However, one of the things we need to ask is why our wazee are complaining continuously and for long periods that the government is not remitting money for their social protection. Even as we allocate this money, we must know that we are doing so to benefit vulnerable people. These vulnerable people are our fathers and mothers. I would like that the money that is allocated reaches the end beneficiary. Otherwise, I support.

Mover.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, the Programme be amended by deleting the figure Ksh27,804,161,457 in column 6 titled Gross Current Estimates and substituting therefor the figure Ksh27,834,161,457.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairman. This amendment is in consultation with the Member for Thika Town or Kiandutu.

There is no interest to contribute to this.

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Mover.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule be amended in Vote 1193, by deleting the figure Ksh342,960,000 in column six (Gross Current Estimates), under Programme 0215000 (Exploration and Distribution of Oil and Gas) and substituting therefor the figure Ksh25,222,411,755.

The essence of this amendment is to take care, through Appropriations-in-Aid (A-in- A) from the fuel stabilisation levy, of the arrears of subsidy. As I said before, the other administration promised and gave subsidies but it is this administration that is paying for them.

The point is made, Hon. Chairman.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Chairman. You have not said Ksh3 billion but you have said Ksh28 billion….

There is a new figure after the amendment. Move at the same pace with the Temporary Chairman and House. There was an amendment that was moved by the Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee. Proceed. I want him to formally go on record in respect of the amendments made on Vote 1169 - State Department for Crop Development, so that The Hansard can be clear on that.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, we appreciate the speed that you are taking us in this sitting.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to Move:

THAT, the Schedule be amended in Vote 1169 by— The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

(c) deleting the figure Ksh314,000,000 in column seven (Gross Capital Estimates), under Programme 0120000 (Agricultural Research and Development) and substituting therefor the figure Ksh259,000,000.

That is now clear, Hon. Chairman. The Vote has been passed and the clarification is noted.

Hon. Wanjiku Muhia.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I support the allocation. But at a time when the East African Community (EAC) is growing, I feel this Vote is underfunded.

Point made, Chair.

Mover

I beg to move that Programme 0614000 be amended as follows: THAT, the Schedule be amended in Vote 1311 by deleting Ksh1,972,563,233 in column 6 (Gross Current Estimates) under programme 0614000 Registration, Regulation and Funding of Political Parties and substituting therefor Ksh2,072,563,233.

The Whip of the Majority Party, you are distracting Members from voting and making decisions.

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Where is the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs or the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Administration and Internal Affairs? Anybody from the Committee to say something about this Vote? The Majority Whip? There is no interest on the matter.

Hon. Chairman of the Departmental Committee of Justice and Legal Affairs. Does the Chairman have the microphone?

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule be amended in Vote 1261 by— (a) deleting the figure Ksh19,952,400,000 in column 6 (Gross Current Estimates), under Programme 0610000 Dispensation of Justice, and substituting therefor the figure Ksh20,437,400,000. (b) by deleting the figure Ksh2,200,000,000 in column 7 (Gross Capital Estimates), under Programme 0610000 Dispensation of Justice, and substituting therefor the figure Ksh1,850,000,000.

Hon. Chair, we are realigning the Budget of the National Treasury. Through these Budget Estimates, we have enhanced the budget of the Judiciary to Ksh22 billion. We are making our promises right. We want to have an independent Judiciary which is well capacitated to fight corruption, and give timely justice to the citizens of Kenya. That is the reason we have allocated enough resources to the Judiciary and dispensation of justice to this country.

Thank you. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Leader of the Majority Party, what is out of order?

Hon. Temporary Chair, the Chair is talking about reallocating this amount from here to the Judiciary, and from one point to the other. However, he needs to explain to Members so that they understand exactly how much and where he is getting that money.

At some point in my life in this House, there is a time there was an amendment during Third Reading whose import was to ensure that Members of Parliament who did not hold degrees would not run in the subsequent election.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, you remember that many of the Members who had no university degrees were here and voted in the affirmative. It is only after they voted Aye that they realised they had barred themselves from running for parliamentary seats. The Chairman of Budget and Appropriations Committee might be drawing money from our constituencies without disclosing the exact Vote he is moving this money from and increasing to the Judiciary. He might be reallocating money from Parliament or NG-CDF to the Judiciary. When he talked about the National Treasury, I wanted the Chair to be specific so that we also do not shoot ourselves on our feet by just reallocating money without knowing exactly from which Votes.

I do not have any problem with the Judiciary. I am their firm supporter. We want more resources to go to the Judiciary so that they can be independent financially as we promised during the campaign.

I moved around this country with the President and Hon. Ndindi Nyoro, who is the Chair of the Budget and Appropriations Committee, and we indicated to the people of Kenya that we shall ensure that the Judiciary is financially independent. It is important for the Chair to tell us where this money is coming from to increase the budget of the Judiciary.

Chair, Budget and Appropriations Committee.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I want to inform this House, because we will be tabling the Report today evening... I wish to give some background with regard to what we are doing and in answering the Leader of the Majority Party on where the money is coming from.

I am sure he knows that the Chair of the Budget and Appropriations Committee has got a purse. The purse I am currently operating on, is of Ksh3.679 trillion. That is the size of the Budget we are reading for the next financial year. Out of this, Ksh2.57 trillion is coming from the ordinary revenue, Ksh347 billion from A-in-A and Ksh42 billion from grants. Therefore, we have been able to reduce the current fiscal deficit to just around Ksh718 billion. We are expending Ksh3.67 trillion out of which Ksh2.3 trillion is national Government expenditure, which incorporates the Judiciary and Parliament. I am sure that Hon. Kimani Ichung’wah is attentive to know exactly where this money is coming from. Out of that, we have allocated Ksh986 billion to the Consolidated Fund Services (CFS). That leaves Ksh385 billion for the equitable share that we are giving to our counties.

Even as we ask where we are getting money to reallocate funds, it is important for Kenyans to know how we have choreographed this Budget. We are now allocating money through value chains. We are not allocating money or throwing money into projects. On the same, the education sector is taking up the lion’s share of national Government expenditure because we are allocating Ksh630 billion to it, which is 30 per cent of the entire national Government expenditure. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

We have allocated an unprecedented sum of Ksh247 billion to our roads. This is because we want roads which are currently being constructed to be completed. We have allocated Ksh10 billion to the NG-CDF. We have also doubled the amount of money that we are allocating to the Higher Education Loans Board (HELB). In the financial year that is about to end, the HELB had an allocation of Ksh15 billion. We have now allocated Ksh30 billion to the HELB so that our brothers and sisters in universities can have easy time. We have also allocated money for the hiring of 20,000 teachers. We have also doubled the amount of money that will be spent by the Teachers Service Commission (TSC) in hiring interns from Ksh1billion to Ksh2 billion because we anticipate doubling the number of interns. This Budget is for Kenyans. That is why we have allocated Ksh5 billion to fertiliser subsidies. Even while cognisant of the falling prices of fertilisers globally, that is not enough for us. We have gone ahead and allocated Ksh5 billion to our farmers so that they get cheap fertilisers. I am sure that the question by the Leader of the Majority Party has now been well- answered. Thank you.

Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriations Committee, with those clarifications, I want to propose the Question so that Members can debate. I am pleased with the interest I am seeing. Allow me to first propose the Question.

Did I see Hon. Robert Pukose?

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. For the first time, we can see that the budget for the Judiciary has been increased. I think this is a very good move in terms of making sure that the Judiciary can expand into more areas. We expect that counties that did not have courts will now be able to construct them and facilitate the delivery of justice to many Kenyans. I am also happy with the Committee’s retention of a subsidy on fertilisers of Ksh5 billion. It will help many of our farmers in terms of food security. That has been a big challenge. We have a lot of food being grown now within our country. I know that we will have a bumper harvest this year. Moving forward, once we retain the fertiliser subsidy, we will make sure that our country is food secure or it will have abundance of food.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman.

Hon. Kangogo Bowen. I did not know that your baptismal name is David.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I want to support the increment of the Judiciary budget. I want to inform the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs that the backlog in Judiciary is worrying. There are cases which have not been considered for almost 20 years. There are people who have been in the corridors of courts for over 30 years. The increment of the budget of the Judiciary will help in the recruitment of more judges, so that the cases can be fast-tracked.

I support the amendment, Hon. Temporary Chairman

Hon. Silvanus Osoro, the Whip of the Majority Party, to make the last comment on this amendment.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I am privileged to serve in the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs.

When the Judiciary tabled their request before us, it was actually beyond this. We really tried to balance because of other interests in different State Departments. We tried to push and fit within their proposal. Be that as it may, Hon. Temporary Chairman and I are legal practitioners. You know the challenges the courts face. As Hon. Kangogo has said, one of them The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

is the matter of backlog because of understaffing. They have a challenge of passing justice to the public because they are incapacitated. To this extent, you can count the number of high courts we have in the country. We should have at least a single high court in every sub-county, so that we can mitigate the challenges. Naturally, we are perennial litigants. We like taking each other to court. People have failed to embrace Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR). That is why it is important for us to help the Judiciary build utmost infrastructure across the country, so that they can mitigate the challenges of the backlog that we have. For that reason, Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to support the amendment.

You have made your point, Whip of the Majority Party.

Mover to move reporting.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move that the Committee of Supply do report to the House its consideration of the Budget Estimates for Financial Year 2023/2024 and its approval thereof with amendments. Thank you.

Thank you Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee.

Hon. Members, congratulations for a job well done. I want to single out Hon. Wangari and Hon. Kaluma. I have been watching them from the Speaker’s Chamber and I made no mistake in picking them to the Panel. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Chairperson.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has considered the Budget Estimates for the Financial Year 2023/2024 and approved the same with amendments and, pursuant to the provisions of Article 221 of the Constitution, Section 39 of the Public Finance Management Act, 2012 and Standing Order 240A, approves the issuance of a sum of Ksh2,308,410,784,957 from the Consolidated Fund to meet the expenditure during the year ending 30th June 2024 in respect of the Votes as approved in the Schedule and that necessary adjustments be made to programmes amended in the Committee of Supply.

Let us have the Mover, Hon. Ndindi Nyoro.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. I beg to move that the House do agree with the Report of the Committee of Supply in its consideration of the Budget Estimates for the Financial Year 2023/2024 and pursuant to the provisions of Article 221 of the Constitution of Kenya, Section 39 of the Public Finance Management Act, 2012 and Standing Order 240(A) approves the issuance of a sum of Ksh2,308,410,784,957 from the Consolidated Fund to meet the expenditure for the National Executive, Parliament and the Judiciary during the Year ending 30th June 2024 in respect of the Votes as contained in the Schedule incorporating amendments made in the Committee of Supply. Hon. Speaker, I also request the Member for Kiambaa, Hon. John Njuguna Kawanjiku to second the Motion. Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker for giving me this opportunity. I also want to take this opportunity to congratulate and thank the Committee of the whole House for making sure that they have gone through the whole Budget for the Financial Year 2023/2024 and the amendments therein. As a Member of the Budget and Appropriations Committee, I second. Thank you.

Thank you

We still have additional business. It is not on the Order Paper but I will call the Chairperson, Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning to lay a Paper on the Table.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table: The Report on the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning on its consideration of the Finance Bill (National Assembly Bill, No.14 of 2023). The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Go ahead and lay the Paper.

Hon. Members, I have had an opportunity to scan through the Report and allow me on your behalf, even before you debate the Bill, to congratulate the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning and its Chairperson for their serious efforts in working round the clock to meet the deadline and laying the Paper that the Chairperson has laid on the Table. This is the spirit we want to encourage of all Chairpersons in prosecuting their work. The level of industry they have put in the documents speak for itself. Tomorrow morning, as you were told, Members business has been vacated on the order of the House Business Committee and after the preliminaries we will go straight to the Finance Bill. I want to urge Members especially my good Members who have been prosecuting the Finance Bill at funerals to be available in the House tomorrow so that we can hear them because debates on Bills lie in this House not at funerals. I encourage Members to abide by that.

Allow me also to thank Members on the left Side of the Speaker who are present in the House. Mama Elachi, Hon. Nabulindo and the two other Members at the back. The lighting is not good. Is that Hon. Nzambia? And your two colleagues. Who is the next? Hon. Mwalyo? And Gachobe. Congratulations for sitting in the House and participating in the debate. Having watched the proceedings throughout, I salute Hon. Martha Wangari and Hon. Kaluma for their starling performance. Hon. Members, on that I now ask you to be upstanding.

Hon. Members, the time being 9.43 p.m. the House stands adjourned until Wednesday, 14th June 2023, at 9.30 a.m.

The House rose at 9.43 p.m.

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Clerk of the National Assembly Parliament Buildings Nairobi The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.