Hon. Members, welcome to the afternoon sitting. We have quorum to transact business. Clerk-at-the-Table, proceed.

Hon. Members on your feet, please, take the nearest seats

Hon. Members, you will recall that in January 2025, the National Assembly held a successful mid-term retreat for Members in which various pertinent issues relating to the business of the House were deliberated on. During the retreat, it was observed that a remarkable number of Members had submitted legislative proposals on various subject matters, some of which had already been published as Bills and are at different stages of consideration. It was further noted that some of the Bills and legislative proposals contained similar or related subject matters. Indeed, the retreat resolved that to ensure prudent use of available time and to fast-track consideration of the Bill and proposals, it would be imperative that the Bills be consolidated. It is against this background that the retreat resolved that the sponsors of Bills and legislative proposals with similar or related subject matters consider consolidating the Bills by either co-sponsoring or introducing amendments to an existing Bill under consideration. Further, it was resolved that Committees under whose mandates the consolidated Bills fall take into account contents of the various Bills and incorporate them in their reports to the House for possible inclusion and consideration during Committee of the whole House. In furtherance of the resolution, I have since received a letter dated 27th February 2025, from the Deputy Speaker, Hon. Gladys Boss, requesting stay of consideration of the Political Parties (Amendment) Bill (National Assembly Bill No.35 of 2022), which was published vide

seeking to amend the Political Parties Act, Cap 7D. The Bill requires the Registrar of Political Parties to convey to the Clerk of each House of Parliament any coalition agreement deposited with the Office of the Registrar of Political Parties. The Bill was read a First Time on 12th April 2023, following which it was committed to the Procedure and House Rules Committee for consideration. In her letter, the Deputy Speaker further indicates that a similar Bill, the Political Parties (Amendment) (No.2) Bill (Senate Bill No.26 of 2024), originating from the Senate, is before the House, and noting the resolution made during the 2025 mid-term retreat to consolidate Bills The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

on the same subject, she requests, on behalf of the Procedure and House Rules Committee, for stay of further consideration of the Bill. You will recall that on 12th February 2025, I reported to the House that I had received a Message from the Senate on the passage of several Bills, including the Political Parties (Amendment) (No.2) Bill (Senate Bill No.26 of 2024). The Bill, which is sponsored by the Senate Majority Leader, seeks to actualise some of the recommendations and views of the public submitted to the National Dialogue Committee (NADCO) during the national dialogue discourse on issues of electoral justice. The Bill was read a First Time on 13th February 2025 and committed to the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs. Similarly, I have also received a letter from the Hon. Umulkher Harun Mohamed, sponsor of the Kenya Sign Language Bill (National Assembly Bill No.1 of 2024), also seeking to suspend consideration of the Bill. The Bill seeks to provide for the recognition, promotion, development and use of Kenyan Sign Language and to mandate the State to put in place measures for the promotion of the rights of the marginalised, including persons with disabilities. In furtherance of the resolutions made during the 2025 mid-term retreat for Members of the House, the Hon. Umulkher Harun, MP notes that her Bill has similar proposals as those contained in the Kenyan Sign Language Bill (Senate Bill No.9 of 2023), co-sponsored by Sen. Crystal Asige, and the Minority Whip, the Hon. Millie Odhiambo-Mabona, which is also before the House. The latter Bill was read a First Time on 28th February 2024 and committed to the Departmental Committee on Social Protection. I have acceded to the requests by the Deputy Speaker and Member for Uasin Gishu County, the Hon. Gladys Boss, and Nominated Member, Hon. Umulkher Harun. In this regard, I hereby direct as follows – 1. That the consideration of the Political Parties (Amendment) Bill (National Assembly Bill No.35 of 2022) and the Kenya Sign Language Bill (National Assembly Bill No.1 of 2024) is stayed forthwith. 2. That, the Departmental Committee of Justice and Legal Affairs, and the Departmental Committee on Social Protection, take into consideration the contents of the two Bills by the two Members, and accommodate the proposals contained in the two Bills in their respective Reports to the House for consideration during the Committee of the whole House. I take this early opportunity to laud the two Members for this bold step which fosters proper time management as well as collegiality within our legislative processes. I urge other Hon. Members with similar or related Bills to consider consolidation or co-sponsoring as this will fast-track consideration of the Bills. The House is accordingly guided. Thank you.

Members at the back, please, take the nearest seats. Hon. Kamket, what is your idea of the nearest seat? In Tiaty, does "nearest" mean "farthest"? Take the nearest seats, Hon. Members. I have a second communication.

Deputy Leader of the Majority Party.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table: Reports of the Auditor-General and Financial Statements of the National Governments Constituencies Development (NG-CDF) for the year ended 30th June 2024 and the certificates therein in respect of: (a) Belgut Constituency; (b) Bobasi Constituency; (c) Bomet Central Constituency; The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

(d) Bonchari Constituency; (e) Bondo Constituency; (f) Bundalangi Constituency; (g) Bureti Constituency; (h) Butere Constituency; (i) Dadaab Constituency; (j) Funyula Constituency; (k) Gatanga Constituency; (l) Hamisi Constituency; (m) Jomvu Constituency; (n) Kabete Constituency; (o) Kaiti Constituency; (p) Kajiado North Constituency; (q) Kajiado West Constituency; (r) Kandara Constituency; (s) Kasipul Constituency; (t) Kesses Constituency; (u) Kiambu Constituency; (v) Kibwezi East Constituency; (w) Kijiado Central Constituency; (x) Kijiado East Constituency; (y) Kimilili Constituency; (z) Kipkelion West Constituency; (aa) Kitui West Constituency; (bb) Kitutu Chache South Constituency; (cc) Kuria East Constituency; (dd) Lari Constituency; (ee) Likoni Constituency; (ff) Luanda Constituency; (gg) Makueni Constituency; (hh) Malava Constituency; (ii) Marakwet West Constituency; (jj) Mathioya Constituency; (kk) Mathira Constituency; (ll) Matungu Constituency; (mm) Matungulu Constituency; (nn) Mumias West Constituency; (oo) Mvita Constituency; (pp) Mwatate Constituency; (qq) Mwingi Central Constituency; (rr) Nambale Constituency; (ss) Navakholo Constituency; (tt) Nyatike Constituency; (uu) Rarieda Constituency; (vv) Shinyalu Constituency; (ww) South Mugirango Constituency; (xx) Suna West Constituency; (yy) Teso North Constituency; (zz) Uriri Constituency; (aaa) Wajir South Constituency; The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

(bbb) Wundanyi Constituency; (ccc) Webuye West Constituency; and (ddd) West Mugirango Constituency. Amendment to the 2025 Budget Policy Statement from the national Treasury.

Hon. Speaker, I want Members to note that we have an amendment to the 2025 BPS, which I tabled.

I thank you.

Yes, Leader of the Majority Party.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. With your indulgence, I would like to clarify a matter concerning the document tabled here in the form of a letter from the national Treasury. Members may have noticed an error reported in the Budget Policy Statement (BPS) sent to the House.

Could Hon. Marianne Keitany allow me to hear myself?

Order, Member for Aldai.

I wish to draw her attention to this because it is important for her to understand the basis of the letter we received from the National Treasury. It addresses a correction of an error in the BPS submitted to us. The Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning discovered an error between the fiscal framework and the expenditure framework under the Ministry of Health. The difference amounted to approximately Ksh73 billion. According to the fiscal framework, the total was Ksh4.263 trillion, while the projected expenditure outlined on Page 55 of the BPS was Ksh4.336 trillion, highlighting a difference of Ksh73 billion. I can see Hon. Ariko nodding in agreement, because it is out of the diligence of the Members of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning that the glaring inconsistency in the figures was pointed out. The National Treasury has provided clarification regarding the issue. In their correction, they assert that the inconsistency arises from how the Social Health Insurance Fund was classified in the Budget. Accountants like Hon. Ariko know that according to the International Financial Reporting Standards, specifically the Government Finance Statistics Manual of 2014, social security funds can be categorised in two ways: either as a separate category distinct from other Ministries, Departments, or Agencies (MDAs) expenditures, or as part of the Government Department that oversees them. In this case, it was categorised under the Government department expenditure for the Ministry of Health, specifically the State Department for Medical Services. This classification led to the exclusion of this amount in the cumulative total of the fiscal framework. This has since been corrected to align with the international financial reporting standards, particularly the Government Finance Statistics Manual of 2014, and the figures now agree. Therefore, let me take this opportunity to thank the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning. Had it not identified this error, we might have encountered people pointing to it as a "computer error," and suggesting in funerals that the BPS represented theft or looting. Now it is clear. The two figures align thus reflecting a consistent understanding between the entire expenditure framework and the fiscal framework currently under consideration by the departmental committees and the Liaison Committee. This letter has also been tabled before the Liaison Committee for noting and before the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning. I must commend the diligence of the Members of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning. Many times, we are accused of merely rubber-stamping The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

anything from the Executive without proper scrutiny. However, this Committee comprises seasoned Members such as Hon. Keynan, Hon. Ariko, Hon. Atandi, and its efficient and diligent Chairperson, the Member for Molo, Hon. Kimani Kuria. Hon. Umulkher is also a member of this Committee, as is the Vice-Chairperson, who previously served as the Chairperson of this Committee in the 11th Parliament, Hon. Benjamin Langat, along with many other committed Members. This tells you that Members scrutinise figures, number after number, down to every comma and at full stops of whatever documents tabled before the House in committees. I believe that this matter will now rest and will be taken care of by the relevant committees.

Order No. 6.

Hon. Wanjiku Muhia, you are very mobile. A few minutes ago, you were seated here.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker for giving me the opportunity. I was lobbying because many Members are not aware of the Motion I am giving notice of. Hon. Speaker, pursuant to the provision of Standing Order 33(1), I seek leave for the adjournment of the House to discuss a definite matter of urgent national importance regarding the delay in absorption of health workers under the Universal Health Coverage (UHC). In May and June 2020, 8,571 healthcare professionals were recruited on a three-year contract under the UHC programme. Majority of these officers were deployed to the county facilities, while a small number was posted to national Government facilities. In 2023, the respective contracts were renewed for a further three years. However, whereas the contracts of the health workers posted to national Government facilities were renewed under similar terms as those agreed in 2020, the health workers recruited under county governments had their remuneration reduced by half. This is contrary to established labour practice of “equal pay, equal work” and falls short of the expectation of fair labour principles as enshrined in Article 41 of the Constitution. Additionally, it is noted that whereas the renewed contracts were given by the county governments, the salaries for the officers are paid by the Ministry of Health, which is under national Government. In October 2023, the national Government assured the UHC staff that they would be transitioned to permanent and pensionable terms. Sadly, in October 2024, the Ministry of Health only transitioned 110 health workers who are under the national Government to permanent and pensionable terms, while leaving the remaining health workers engaged under the county governments on contractual terms. Hon. Speaker, it is against this background that I seek leave for the adjournment of the House to discuss this matter of great national concern with a view of exploring possible and lasting solutions. I thank you.

Hon. Wanjiku, your Notice collapses because you have no one supporting it. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

No, Hon. Speaker. All these Members are in support.

Where are they?

They did not know that they are supposed to stand.

You require 20 Members to support. You have more than 20 of them.

On a point of order?

What is your point of order?

Hon. Speaker…

Hon. (Dr) Pukose, having met the threshold, you can only raise your point of order at the time it comes for debate. Hon. Wanjiku Muhia, I allocate you one hour. The House is sitting up to 9 p.m. tonight. You will move your Motion at exactly 8 p.m.

Order Members. Hon. Otiende Amollo, what is amusing you? You seem to be in a state of hysteria.

Hon. Speaker, I am greatly impressed by your diligence.

Thank you.

Next Order.

We will begin with the Statement by the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Health in response to an issue raised by Hon. Esther Passaris.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. As the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Health, I rise to give a Statement on matters concerning the death of Mr Gilbert Kinyua, which has elicited a lot of debate among members of the public and raised concerns regarding the safety and security of patients and staff in health facilities. In response to those concerns, the Committee visited the Kenyatta National Hospital (KNH) on Friday, 21st February 2025 to clarify the issues raised. Mr Gilbert Kinyua was referred to the KNH from St Mary's Hospital, Langata on 11th December 2024 and was admitted to Ward 7B, which specialises in the management of patients with neurological disorders. At admission, Mr Kinyua had pressure sore wounds within the pressure points resulting from prolonged immobility. After an evaluation by the KNH specialists, Mr Kinyua was diagnosed with a rare neurological disorder known as Guillain-Barre Syndrome that causes muscle weakness. His condition was particularly severe, affecting all his limbs, that is, the hands and the legs. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Therefore, he required complete nursing care, including tube feeding. Despite the severity of his condition, his status remained stable under the KNH care. On Thursday, 6th February 2025, Mr Kinyua's condition was observed to be stable, and the day proceeded as normal. The night shift team took over without noting any undue concerns. The nursing staff attended to him at 9.00 p.m., midnight, and at 3.00 a.m. No abnormalities were reported during those routine checks. On the circumstances surrounding the death of Mr Gilbert Kinyua, the Acting Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of the KNH, Dr William Sigilai, who is a physician, informed the Committee that in the early morning of Friday, 7th February during the nurses' ward rounds at approximately 6.00 a.m., the late Kinyua was found with his face covered by a blood-stained sheet. Upon uncovering him, the nurses discovered that he was motionless with a cut wound on his neck. The nurses immediately reported the incident, and the respective teams were notified for action. Within 30 minutes, the Directorate of Criminal Investigations (DCI) was notified and arrived at the scene. The family members, namely, the wife and brother of the deceased, arrived within an hour. The body was moved to the mortuary in the course of the day. The Chief Security Officer informed the Committee that the KNH has an elaborate security system in place, including CCTV cameras in common areas. Additionally, the hospital has officers from the Kenya National Police Service within the hospital and in close proximity to the Kenyatta National Hospital Police Post. In light of this incident, the hospital has heightened and enhanced security measures across the hospital to ensure the safety of more than 1,800 patients, staff, and visitors. The following are the interventions on patients’ security and safety by the KNH. On the KNH security and safety governance instruments, the hospital has developed a security and safety strategy, policies, and standard operating procedures. The hospital's security human resource comprise three distinct teams that collaborate in ensuring security and safety. These include 119 KNH employees, 261 outsourced security services and the Kenya National Police Service officers, together with the National Intelligence Service (NIS) officers. The hospital has installed 331 CCTV cameras and has established a security communication centre, which is monitored on a 24-hour basis and respects patients' privacy. On a multi-agency approach, the hospital has established partnerships and collaborations with institutions within the KNH complex such as the Kenya Medical Training College (KMTC), the University of Nairobi, the Government Chemist, the Kenya Medical Research Institute (KEMRI), the Kenyatta National Hospital Radiology, the Ministry of Health, AFYA Annex, as well as other State agencies, including the NIS, the DCI, the Kenya National Police Service, the Kenya Prisons Service and other institutional arrangements. To maintain continuity of care for patients, the wards are manned on a 24-hour basis by clinical staff, including nurses, who work in shifts. In addition, there are established protocols, guidelines, and work instructions to support the execution of respective functions. Besides the existing interventions, the hospital further seeks to enhance its safety and security mechanisms in the following ways: 1. Construction of modern gates and entry points with modern access control capabilities. 2. Acquisition and installation of an electric security management system with biometric radiofrequency identification and visitors management system. 3. Prioritisation of the KNH as a strategic Government installation for the provision of armed security on a 24-hour basis, seven days a week, by the Critical Infrastructure Protection Unit (CIPU). 4. Securing the hospital from external threats by erecting a perimeter wall across the hospital with designated entry points. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

The Committee made the following key observations from its engagements with the hospital management: 1. For improved security and safety of patients and hospital staff, the hospital should strengthen its internal security. The current focus of the hospital has largely been on external threats. 2. The ward mate of the late Gilbert Kinyua had been officially discharged by the hospital. However, he remained in the hospital since he was homeless. The said patient was being treated and had been diagnosed with diabetes and convulsions and was later taken to a shelter through the hospital's intervention. However, the shelter refused to keep the patient owing to his disruptive behaviour. 3. The patient has been experiencing convulsions, which have been medically proven to sometimes manifest where a person acts without later recalling their actions. 4. Owing to this patient's medical diagnosis, the Acting CEO of the hospital informed the Committee that the patient's fingerprints, together with the knife, had been taken to the National Registration Bureau for further investigation. 5. The prevailing security measures at the hospital were put in place after the death of a patient at the hospital 10 years ago in 2015. At that time, the hospital only had 12 CCTV cameras. Since then, the hospital has acquired and installed 331 CCTV cameras. The hospital also has 119 in-house security employees and 216 outsourced security services, as well as officers from the Kenya National Police Service. 6. The post-mortem on the body of the late Gilbert Kinyua was conducted in the presence of both Government and independent family pathologists. The samples from the post-mortem were sent to the Government Chemist for analysis. At the time of the Committee's visit to the hospital, the post-mortem results had not yet been released to the hospital, but had been handed over to the DCI. 7. The hospital receives nearly 30,000 visitors daily who should pass through a screening system that will help to prevent weapons from being brought into the hospital. The Committee made the following recommendations: 1. The DCI to urgently finalise investigations on this unfortunate death and recommend appropriate action with a view to establishing and holding accountable the person responsible for the death of Mr Gilbert Kinyua. 2. The Board of the KNH to audit the hospital's internal security systems within one month so as to identify possible security breaches, in particular internal security threats, and come up with mitigation measures for necessary implementation. 3. The report of the audit is to be shared with the Committee, which shall access the areas that may be allocated funds during the budgetary process. In conclusion, the matter is actively before the Committee. Further, the matter is under investigation by the DCI, and the suspect is still under the custody of the hospital. Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Esther, have you listened to the Statement?

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I noticed that the Committee was at the KNH while I was away at the Pan-African Parliament. However, my question has not been fully answered. Let me talk about the issue of Gilbert Kinyua. The family got in touch with me when I was in South Africa and asked what they should do. They said that the hospital had indicated they would conduct a post-mortem, and the family needed to have its own doctor. I quickly got in touch with a few doctors, and I The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

managed to get the family a doctor to represent them. I settled the bill of Ksh25,000 for them to have their own independent doctor. The KNH waived the hospital fees as well as the mortuary charges. I am a bit concerned about the fact that this is not the first time that we have had a death at the KNH. We had one incident on 29th November 2015, when Mr Cosmos Mutunga was found dead. This is a second incident to occur at Kenyatta National Hospital. I believe that if security had been improved after the first case, this could have been prevented. Why was that particular ward not covered by CCTV? I want to know whether the 331 CCTV cameras were installed after the incident of Gilbert or after the incident of Mr Cosmos Mutunga.

We also have another incident at Moi Teaching and Referral Hospital in Eldoret. Mr Albert Chesang went missing from his hospital bed on 29th January 2025 and on 9th February 2025 his decomposed body was found near the hospital.

The question I ask is: what are we doing about the investigations? I know it is not the Ministry of Health that conducts investigations, but we need a multi-sectoral approach. The investigations will help us improve the quality and duty of care for both the patients and the hospital staff.

The second thing I want to ask is on compensation. The family is looking for over Ksh400,000 to enable them give their loved one a burial, but they do not have that money. They did not even have money to hire an independent doctor to conduct the post-mortem. What compensation is the family going to receive? Susan is young with two small children. Waiving the hospital bill and mortuary charges is not enough. They still have burial expenses, children who need to go to school, and counselling needs for the entire family to cater for.

Since the Government should be held culpable, what compensation is available? Do they have insurance? Is there a mechanism to compensate this family and others as well? Additionally, what is the status of the investigation?

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon (Dr) Robert Pukose.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I have heard Hon. Esther Passaris. The basic facts we should establish are that Gilbert Kinyua was paralysed before he was admitted at the hospital. He had a severe form of Guillain-Barre syndrome, rendering him unable to move his limbs, both his hands and legs. While in the hospital, he was being fed through a tube. The hospital was taking care of him. The hospital has cooperated with the Directorate of Criminal Investigations in the ongoing investigations to ensure that the culprit is brought to justice. At this stage, I do not think we should be discussing compensation. There is a mechanism through which compensation can be sought. I believe it is premature to start considering it at this stage.

Secondly, it has been asked if the 331 CCTV cameras were installed after the incident of Mr Kinyua or after the 2015 incident. They were installed after the 2015 incident. On the issue about the Eldoret patient, that is not a matter that is before the Committee. Therefore, I cannot respond to it.

While Hon. Esther Passaris was in South Africa, she asked me for the telephone number of Dr Sigilai. At that time, the CEO, Dr Kamuri, had resumed, and I provided her with the number. I believe there are other mechanisms she can pursue to see how the family can be assisted.

Hon. Passaris.

Hon. Speaker, while I know that Parliament has immunity to discuss everything, I will sit with Susan, the wife of the deceased. She told me that her husband was diagnosed with Parkinson’s disease. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

We appreciate whatever care the hospital provided, but one thing they needed to provide, which they did not, was to keep the patient safe. Someone walked into that hospital and slit the neck of the patient.

Order, Hon. Passaris. You know that you are not making a statement of fact. Investigations are ongoing and the statements you are making can easily prejudice those investigations. So, be very measured in what you are saying. You cannot say with finality what you are saying, when the DCI is investigating a possible homicide.

Yes. Hon. (Dr) Pukose. Just hold on, Hon. Esther.

The doctors who attended the patient say the diagnosis is Guillain-Barre Syndrome. It is not Parkinson's disease. That is confirmed by the Acting CEO, Dr Sigilai and the medical doctors in the hospital. The patient was referred from Saint Mary's Hospital with bedsores. That means that wherever the patient was, he was not moving. He was paralysed and was in bed and developed wounds on pressure points. When he was brought to Kenyatta, he already had wounds at pressure points. Kenyatta National Hospital provided dressing and regular turning of the patient so that the wounds could heal. The patient was also on nasogastric feeding, using a tube, because he could not swallow. So, he had to be assisted to feed.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Esther, are you done?

Hon. Speaker, I stand here very disheartened because I hear one story from the family and another from the Chairperson of the Committee.

We have a family in distress, a family in need, and it is not premature to discuss compensation. On the date the incident happened, were the surveillance cameras in place? I do not understand why no arrests have been made. If an arrest is not made within seven days, the case is weakened. I strongly feel it is time to discuss compensation. I also hope the Chairperson will address the other questions raised in the request for a Statement, including concerns about other patients who died in our referral facilities.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Mukami, I notice you have a request for a Statement on the same patient.

Yes. Hon. Speaker.

You may go ahead and seek clarifications from Hon. Pukose, the Chairperson.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I request for a Statement regarding the recent murder of a patient in Kenyatta National Hospital, pursuant to the provisions of…

Hon. Mukami, I have not given you an opportunity to seek a Statement. I have given you an opportunity to seek any clarification on the matter.

Hon. Speaker, personally, I wanted to ask the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations to tell us the status of the investigations into the murder of Mr Gilbert Kinyua that occurred at Kenyatta National Hospital and the action being taken to ensure the perpetrator of the crime is arrested and prosecuted without delay.

I wanted to confirm to Hon. (Dr) Pukose that Mr Kinyua has a family. He has a wife and children, and he is from Mukurweini. In his Statement, he mentioned that Mr Kinyua was dumped at Kenyatta National Hospital and had no family. I would like clarification from the Chairman of the Committee on this matter.

Hon. (Dr) Pukose, did you say he was dumped in Kenyatta National Hospital? The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Speaker, I did not make that kind of Statement. The Hansard can bear me out. What I said is that the patient was referred from St Mary's Hospital to Kenyatta National Hospital.

The patient who was abandoned was neighbouring Mr Kinyua at the Hospital. He had diabetes and convulsions. After he was treated and recovered, Kenyatta National Hospital looked for him a place in some of the homes. When he was taken there, after some few days, because of his erratic and unpredictable behaviour, the nursing home refused to keep him, and he was brought back to Kenyatta. This other patient was the one staying in the bed next to patient Kinyua who has a family. He was referred from St. Mary’s Hospital. I did not say he was abandoned.

Hon. Mukami, regarding the status of investigations, you can refer to the Statement. I think he provided a fairly, elaborate description of the status of investigations.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Yes, Hon. (Dr) Nyikal. Give him the microphone.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I just want to add to what our Chairman has said. I think there are two issues here. One is the general security within the hospital. Two, the specific circumstances of this case. Our Chairman has raised a very important point that we probably need to consider. This person died. Nobody seems to have seen anything yet he was sharing a room with another patient who was neither unconscious nor incapacitated. He was active. Furthermore, this patient had a history of convulsive disorders and disruptive behaviour that led to his removal from the home that the hospital had initially secured for him. As our Chairman has indicated, the important part the investigations should consider is this arrangement of the other person who is unwell with a disorder affecting his mental state. He was placed in the same space as a vulnerable patient. We probably do not want to go much into that once that has been brought out and investigative officers are in. We brought it to their attention – that it is an extremely important follow-up. As the Committee brought it out, this issue is the duty of investigative officers. Please, note that fact. Thank you.

Hon. Kaguchia.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. It is important to note something. Once a patient is admitted to a hospital, the institution bears the responsibility of ensuring that the security of that patient is guaranteed. The direction the investigation is taking suggests that the bed mate or neighbour may have been involved in terminating this patient’s life. There are very important questions that linger in mind. How did this patient have a knife in the hospital? How was this possible? Another suspicious issue is that the hospital has continued to demand that the poor family pays bills for the time the patient had been there yet this patient was in the custody of the hospital treating him when his life was terminated in the same hospital. This family has no way of raising money. It cannot pay those bills. I am wondering whether it is right for the hospital to go ahead to demand payment after failing to guarantee his security. He was killed while admitted in hospital. Even as a matter of mercy and corporate social responsibility by the hospital, you should direct that the hospital lift all the bills from this patient so that the family can bury him.

Hon. Kaguchia, Hon. Esther Passaris who brought the request is disputing your assertion that there is demand to pay the bills.

Hon. Speaker, this patient died while in hospital.

Order, Hon. Kaguchia. Take your seat. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I got in touch with Dr Njoroge Kamuri who is the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of the Kenyatta National Hospital (KNH) while Hon. Kaguchia was raising the issue. Dr Njoroge Kamuri informed me that relatives of the patient went to the hospital yesterday. The hospital informed them that it would waive mortuary and ward fees. Everything would be waived. However, they continued to demand seeing how much would be waived. They went with their bill. As per now, the hospital will waive mortuary fees. They do not have to pay anything because the hospital will waive medical bills. You can just organise and have the body transported without paying anything to the hospital.

Yes, Hon. Kaguchia.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. That would be refreshing because the brief I heard from the family was that they were being pushed into paying bills. I have visited them, and I have been in touch with them and the clergy several times. I have also been in touch with Dr Kamuri. He had not made any such commitments. I believe he is serious if indeed, he has made that commitment to the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Health. It is on The Hansard now. He should ensure that the bill is waived.

Hon. Passaris, do you want to pursue this again?

With the way Hon. (Dr) Nyikal talked, I feel that the patient next to Gilbert is a suspect. For me, I noted that a knife with blood was found near the hospital. I recently saw something in South Africa. Similarly, they have high crime rates like Kenya. The police should give updated reports on a weekly or daily basis, especially on such sensitive cases, so that we are not left speculating on whether it is this way or that way. If the patient next to Gilbert had mental issues and Gilbert was vulnerable because he was suffering from bedsores, the hospital still has a duty of care. I confirm that the family has said that the bills are being waived. Although we are happy about that, it is not enough. The children need to go to school. Susan needs to make sure she is able to sustain herself. We should be talking about compensation because we should lead by example. The family needs to be compensated. I do not see the investigations going anywhere, especially if the patient next to him has not been charged yet he is the prime suspect. Thank you.

Yes, Hon. Kajwang’.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I think this debate is something interesting to all of us. I suppose that the Chairman in that Committee should investigate it more so that we fulfil a mandate of this House—seeing the question of security that is not just limited to this patient. The Member of Nairobi questioned the security of the institution. Therefore, the Cabinet Secretary or the agency concerned should let us have a whole picture of security in the institution. Apart from the investigation of determining culpability, there is a whole issue of tortious liability on who has the duty of care for some reason, a patient in an institution dies. There are issues to the fact that some people, whether mentally ill or not, are with that patient in that whole time. Who bears the tortious liability of the duty of care? Without us giving so much information on this and with a lot of indulgence, Hon. Speaker, you may want to ask the Chairman, the specific assignments of going to investigate this issue so that we have an oversight function or role on these matters. Thank you.

He already said that the Directorate of Criminal Investigations (DCI) will be sharing the progress of investigations on this matter. As and when he gets material beyond what he has said here, the Chairman will be responsible enough to bring some additional communication to the House. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Let us have the Request of Statement by Hon. Hussein Barre, Member for Tarbaj.

Hon. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 44(2)(c), I wish to request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Administration and Internal Affairs regarding rampant cases of human trafficking in northern Kenya. Recruitment agencies, though opaque, are operating in Wajir, Mandera and Garissa Counties. They prey on the hopes and dreams of the young generation, enticing them with the promise of a brighter future abroad. Due to the high cost of living and lack of job opportunities in the country, the young generation accept the opportunities to travel abroad, offered by the recruiters. Unfortunately, the victims are handed over to human traffickers locally and abroad, who demand ransom from their families for them to be released. The act of recruiting, transporting, transferring, harbouring or receiving individuals using threats, coercion, abduction, fraud, deception, abuse of power or position of vulnerability is done for the purpose of exploitation. It is against this background that I request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Administration and Internal Affairs on the following: 1. A comprehensive report on investigation into human trafficking in northern Kenya and in the country, including investigation into the operation of involved recruitment agencies. 2. Measures being taken to ensure that families and individuals who suffer these atrocities get justice and rehabilitation. 3. The long-term measures being implemented to address cases of human trafficking in the country, and to formalise labour export from the country. Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Speaker, I need your indulgence on this. From what I hear, the Hon. Member is talking about Kenyans being exported beyond our territorial boundaries. My honest opinion is that this could be better handled by the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations.

Well, the question is about human trafficking in northern Kenya, not out of northern Kenya.

But it goes beyond our territorial boundaries.

Clerk, check and see whether we can reassign the request to the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Affairs. Be that as it may, whichever Committee handles the matter, it will respond to you in two weeks. Hon. Rahab Mukami, your request is spent, so we will skip it. Hon. Joseph Munyoro, Member for Kigumo.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 44(2)(c), I wish to request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Administration and Internal Affairs regarding Disappearance of Persons from Kigumo Constituency. An alarming trend has emerged regarding disappearance of persons in Mareira Sub-Location in Kigumo Constituency. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Mr David Gitau Maina disappeared on 27th December 2024 and his whereabouts remain unknown to this day. According to his family members, Mr Gitau went out to complete a land purchase transaction and his phone went silent. He has not been seen since. On the same day, Mr David Njehia Macharia vanished from his home and his location is unknown. Additionally, Mr James Mburu Kariuki, from Irima village in the same sub-location, disappeared and has not been located. Moreover, on 7th January 2025, Mr Patrick Karanja Gitau, a recently retired Army officer, vanished from his home and his whereabouts remain unaccounted for. All these disappearances have been reported to Kigumo Police Station under the following OB Numbers: 10/29/12/2024, 10/21/01/2025, 14/01/2025 and 29/8/01/2025. Efforts to trace the whereabouts of the missing persons have faced several challenges, including the fact that Kigumo Police Station, which serves as the Divisional Headquarters, is operating with only one malfunctioning vehicle for the whole constituency, limiting mobility.

It is against this background that I request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Administration and Internal Affairs on the following: 1. Report on the whereabouts of Mr David Gitau Maina, Mr Daniel Njehia Macharia, Mr James Mburu Kariuki, Mr Patrick Karanja Gitau and the status of investigations by the police on their disappearance as reported under OB numbers 10/01/01/2025, 10/29/12/2024, 29/8/01/2025 and 14/01/2025, respectively. 2. Actions being taken by the Ministry of Interior and National Administration to ensure that the said persons are expeditiously traced and reunited with their families and perpetrators of their disappearances are brought to book. 3. Measures put in place by the Ministry of Interior and National Administration to ensure the safety of residents of Mareira Sub-Location in Kigumo Constituency. 4. Plans put in place by the Ministry to provide more vehicles to Kigumo Police Station to facilitate the security personnel to undertake their operations with ease. Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Tongoyo.

Hon. Speaker, I will respond in two weeks.

Two weeks is okay. Hon. Joyce Kamene, Member for Machakos County.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 44(2)(c), I rise to request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Blue Economy, Water and Irrigation regarding the Status of Mavoko Water Supply project. The project is an initiative financed jointly by the Governments of the Republic of Kenya and the Kingdom of Belgium, in line with the national Government’s commitment to provide universal clean and safe water. The project seeks to increase the water supply capacity to 12,000 and 5,000 cubic metres per day to Mavoko and Syokimau areas, respectively. Hundreds of residents, who have been hoping to benefit from the project considering the perennial water shortages in these areas, continue to face challenges owing to an inordinate delay in the implementation of the project.

It is against this background that I request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Blue Economy, Water and Irrigation on the following: The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

1. A report on the status of implementation of the Mavoko Drinking Water Supply Project, jointly funded by the Governments of Kenyan and Belgium. 2. A report on the steps being taken by the Ministry to ensure completion of the project and the expected timelines. 3. The interim measures being taken by the Ministry to address the water scarcity faced by the residents and to protect them from unscrupulous water vendors. I, thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Thank you, Hon. Joyce Kamene. Hon. Bowen, Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Blue Economy and Irrigation, when you have a business, you should remain static.

Yes, I have seen it, Hon. Speaker. I will give a response in two weeks’ time.

. Thank you. Before we go on with the next statements, allow me to acknowledge Light Academy from Karen, Langata, Nairobi; and Kenyatta University students from Ruiru, Kiambu who are in the Public Gallery. On my behalf and that of the House, we welcome them to Parliament. Next is Hon. Clive Gisairo, Member for Kitutu Masaba.

Hon. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 44(2)(c), I rise to request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Communication, Information and Innovation regarding the policy applied by Safaricom PLC on the transmission of political messages. In recent months, numerous users of various Premium Rate Services Providers (PRSP) and customers whose applications for sender identifications (IDs) are whitelisted as pre- approved entities have been experiencing blocking of transmission of political messages. This raises significant concerns about transparency and fairness of the criteria used by Safaricom PLC to determine messages deemed acceptable and those which are not. Political messaging is a vital aspect of our democratic process, allowing candidates to communicate on their platforms and engage with voters. By blocking certain political messages, Safaricom PLC may inadvertently favour specific political entities over others, which could cause an imbalance in the political landscape. The lack of clear guidelines and communication from Safaricom regarding this policy, undermines democratic engagement and the free flow of information. It is against this background that I request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Communication, Information and Innovation on the following: 1. Report on whether the policy by Safaricom PLC, if any, regarding transmission of political messages aligns with the constitutional provisions and laws safeguarding freedom of speech, and communication and consumer rights of access to information. 2. Steps taken by Safaricom PLC to ensure that the process for blocking sender IDs, particularly in the political context, is impartial and free from bias. 3. The policy framework and administrative mechanisms for affected parties to seek redress or appeal, including seeking refund for the whitelisted sender IDs. 4. The criteria for approving or blocking transmission of political bulk messages and the safeguards put in place by Safaricom PLC to prevent the message- blocking system from being exploited for political gain or to suppress certain viewpoints. 5. A report on whether Safaricom PLC allows inter-network termination of messages to other networks, particularly Airtel, and if not, the interventions The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

required for Safaricom to allow inter-network termination and facilitate a common sender ID for messages sent through the two service providers, particularly by businesses and organisations to enhance their brand recognition and improve the overall user experience. I, thank you, Hon. Speaker. I had raised this Statement in the Third Session, but it took months without a response.

We will ensure that you get a response quickly. The Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Communication, Information and Innovation, Hon. KJ. I cannot see him. Leader of the Majority Party, ensure we have a response in two weeks’ time.

I will do that.

Hon. Irene Mayaka.

Hon. Speaker, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 44(2)(c), I rise to request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations regarding the safety and security of Kenyans stranded in Myanmar. Since 2022, hundreds of Kenyans have fallen victim to an elaborate human trafficking syndicate operating under the guise of lucrative jobs offered in Thailand. Many are lured with promises of employment as customer service agents, drivers, and waiters, among others. However, upon arrival in Bangkok and Thailand, they are kidnapped and transported to the border town of Mae Sot, from where they are smuggled into Myanmar. Once they are there, victims are subjected to forced labour, coercion and criminal activities, including sophisticated online scams targeting individuals globally, including in Kenya. While there has been a rescue of over 7,000 foreigners, many persons, including a significant number of Kenyans remain trapped and are unable to cross back into Thailand due to the closed border. The conditions at these borders are dire, as they lack basic necessities such as food, water and sanitation facilities. The security situation is volatile. The issue of human trafficking of Kenyans in Myanmar is not new. Its persistence highlights the need for lasting measures. It is against this background that I request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations on the following: 1. Status of Kenyans currently stranded in Myanmar, and especially those currently stranded at the Myanmar-Thailand border, including the number of Kenyans affected, the current security situations and timelines for their repatriation. 2. The immediate action being taken by the Cabinet Secretary for Foreign and Diaspora Affairs to engage with the Government of Thailand in rescuing Kenyans stranded at the Myanmar-Thailand border. 3. Measures taken by the Cabinet Secretary for Foreign and Diaspora Affairs to engage with the Government of Thailand in addressing the issue of human trafficking, including cooperation strategies and stringent border control measures to prevent further trafficking of Kenyans. 4. Report of the status of investigation by the Director of Criminal Investigations into human trafficking networks in Kenya operated by fraudulent employment agencies. 5. Steps taken by the Government to educate the youth about human trafficking, specifically sensitising them on verifying recruitment agencies before seeking employment abroad. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I, thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Bashir, are you the Vice-Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence, and Foreign Relations?

Yes, Hon. Speaker.

When can you bring a response?

Hon. Speaker, we can do that in two weeks’ time.

Thank you. Dr Joyce Bensuda, Member for Homa Bay County.

Hon. Speaker, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Orders 44(2)(c), I rise to request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Environment, Forestry and Mining regarding the destruction of forest in Magadi for charcoal production. Forests play a crucial role in sustaining life and maintaining climate stability. However, in recent years, Lake Magadi region has experienced severe destruction due to a high demand for charcoal. Indigenous tree species are being harvested to meet the high demand for charcoal. The environmental impact of this trend is alarming, with effects such as increased vulnerability to climate change. To regulate charcoal production, The Forests (Charcoal) Regulations, 2009 were introduced. Additionally, in 2016, this House passed the Climate Change Act (Cap. 387A) which provides a framework for the promotion of climate-resilient, low-carbon economic development. However, their enforcement remains a challenge, with a significant portion of charcoal production remaining unregulated, further contributing to adverse effects of climate change. Hon. Speaker, it is against this background that I request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Environment, Forestry and Mining on the following: 1. Immediate measures that the Ministry of Environment, Climate Change and Forestry is putting in place to curb the ongoing destruction of forests in Magadi region for charcoal production; 2. Steps that the Ministry is taking to enforce the Charcoal Regulations of 2009 and the Climate Change Act to ensure compliance with sustainable forestry practices; 3. Strategies to promote use and uptake of alternative energy sources so as to reduce dependency on charcoal to mitigate the adverse environmental impacts of deforestation; and 4. Long-term strategies to enhance forest conservation in Magadi and other affected regions. Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Thank you, Hon. Atieno Bensuda. Who is the Chair for the Departmental Committee on Environment, Forestry and Mining? Hon. Owen Baya, is that Hon. Gikaria's committee?

Yes.

Ensure they bring a response in two weeks.

Much obliged, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. John Namoit, Turkana South.

Hon. Speaker, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 44(2)(c), I wish to request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Environment, Forestry and Mining regarding Gold Mining in Turkana South Constituency. Hon. Speaker, there are mining activities currently being undertaken in Lamu Nyeusi, on the border of Sigor and Turkana South Constituencies, Lorogon village in Kaptir ward, Lobakat Division and Kalomwae in Turkana South Constituency. Mineral wealth in Turkana presents significant economic potential. However, there is need to ensure mining activities are conducted safely and legally, complying with public safety and environmental standards. These activities, which commenced without the involvement of the residents, have exposed them to hazardous chemicals and have caused destruction of farm produce and pollution of water in the area. Notably, the Environmental Management and Co-ordination Act (Cap 387), provides that projects related to mining ought to have an environmental impact assessment study report submitted prior to the issuance of a mining licence. In addition, the natural resource is located within disputed land and could possibly compound existing conflict among communities in the area. Hon. Speaker, it is against this background that I request for a Statement from the Departmental Committee on Environment, Forestry and Mining regarding the following: 1. Report on the steps taken by the Government, including a report on public participation conducted, if any, prior to issuance of mining licences in Lamu Nyeusi, Lorogon village and Kalomwae in Turkana South Constituency; 2. List of the mining licences issued in Turkana County in the last three years, and the operational requirements issued to the licencees; 3. Steps taken to prevent any conflict among the communities bordering the sites, including consultations with the leaders within the area; and 4. Report on the benefit-sharing formula agreed on to guarantee residents’ returns from gold mining in the County. I, thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Thank you. There was a Member who requested to joy ride on this. Hon. Lochakapong, go ahead.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker for this opportunity. I wish to support the Statement by Hon. (Dr) Ariko, the Member for Turkana South. We have many illegal miners and particularly, in West Pokot, and between West Pokot and Turkana. Now, these illegal miners are operating without a mining licence and they are mining gold. We have engaged these people but seemingly, they are cartels and are being protected by officers from the Ministry of Mining. Right from the regional office in Eldoret to the headquarters here, all those guys who are supposed to be protecting communities are aligned in doing illegal work. When you get them, they have no licence for mining. They have no consent from the county government nor any document. Others have fraudulent documents from National Environmental Management Authority (NEMA). The kind of environmental destruction that they have caused is worrying and sad. I hope the Committee expedites its investigation into this matter because according to Dr Ariko's Statement, these people do not have any mining licences. They have even threatened to change the course of a river, and very soon, a town called Kainuk will be swept away because of the illegal activities of these miners. I, therefore, wish that these people are brought to book. If they have applied for a mining licence and they have not got it, let them be denied the licence because they have engaged in illegal activities. The Government, communities and the county government are losing a lot of The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

resources in terms of royalties because those people are engaged in illegal activities. It is not only happening in Lamu Nyeusi but also, in many parts of West Pokot. If the Cabinet Secretary is the only officer within the Ministry of Mining not involved in this corruption web, he should visit the area to find out what is happening. Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Thank you. Yes, Hon. (Dr) Otiende Amollo.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. With your kind indulgence, let me piggy ride on this one briefly. Hon. Speaker, in your absence yesterday, I said in this House that in the last 48 hours, I lost five of my constituents to mining activities in Rarieda. They were five women who were going about their business, the youngest of them being only 27 years, and also, a graduate. I, therefore, think that the issue of mining is important to address but it is important to address from my perspective in three ways. One is the importance of publishing the various mining licences that have been issued throughout the country. I do not think there has been an occasion when, even as elected representatives, we are made aware of the holders of those licences. Even in my constituency, I am aware that in the county, some people have been issued with those licences. It is only that we do not know them. Secondly, it is important for the Committee to capture the intersection in terms of the mandate. When I enquired from the Cabinet Secretary for Mining, I was informed that there is a part of the mandate that has been ceded to the counties. I am not sure whether the counties are aware or clear in terms of the regulation. As a result, the citizens are left at that intersection without clarity. In my view, the most important thing in terms of mining is that you may not stop citizens from being involved in mining, especially artisanal mining because they need money. Many of them do not have jobs or alternative sources of income and so they must be allowed to do artisanal mining. What is important is its safety and regulations. That safety needs to be provided by both the national Government and the county governments. I urge the Committee to explore that area in their engagement with the Department for Mining to see how it can improve the security, even if it means providing security by counties or the national Government to regulate the mining area, fence it off and stop people from going to the dangerous areas. That is what we need to do. I support the Statement and I urge that the Committee looks into it with expedition. Thank you.

Who is the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Environment, Forestry and Mining? Is it Hon. Gikaria? Hon. Owen, can we get a response in two weeks?

Much obliged, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Umul Kheir Kassim, Member for Mandera County. Hon. Sabina I will come to you after that.Give Hon. Umul Kheir the microphone. The one next to you is on.

Thank you, Hon. Chair.

Which Chair?

Hon. Speaker, I am sorry. I am requesting for a Statement on the drought situation in Mandera County. Pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 44(2)(c), I wish to request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Regional Development regarding the drought situation in Mandera County. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Mandera County, especially Mandera West Constituency is experiencing acute water shortage due to prolonged drought conditions in the country. The main water sources in the county, including earth pans and boreholes, have dried up, leaving the residents without any alternative during this Ramadhan period. The situation is dire and has led to health concerns due to dehydration and malnutrition, particularly affecting children and the elderly. In addition, the situation has led to death of livestock, which is a source of livelihood for the community. Further, the residents are at risk of developing waterborne diseases due to lack of water for sanitation, adversely affecting their lives and livelihood. It is against this background that I request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Regional Development on the following: 1. Measures being taken to enhance the supply and distribution of relief food, water and nutritious supplements for children and elderly persons to the affected arid and semi-arid areas including Mandera County; 2. Measures being put in place to provide medical assistance to vulnerable populations to prevent malnutrition and dehydration; and 3. Long-term plans to drill boreholes and mega water pans to supply water to the residents for consumption, including for livestock and other agricultural activities. I thank you.

Thank you, Umul Kheir. The Chair of Departmental Committee on Regional Development.

Hon. Speaker, I will endeavour to give a response to this Statement within two weeks.

Two weeks, thank you. Hon. Sabina Chege. Yes, Hon. Umul Kheir.

Hon. Speaker, I seek your indulgence on this. You know we are in the month of Ramadan and the situation is dire. We will be going for recess soon. Could you please intervene and request that we get a response within a week?

Hon. Lochakapong, can you try and bring a response by Thursday next week?

Hon. Speaker, just like I said, I will endeavour to give a response to this Statement within two weeks.

I am telling you to try and bring it on Thursday next week.

Yes, Hon. Speaker, that will be done.

Is that okay?

Yes, and that will be within the two weeks.

Next week is a week. You said within two weeks.

Before the end of two weeks, that is what I meant.

Okay. Thursday, next week. Give Hon. Sabina the microphone. There is one across, after Hon. Kasheri. Now you have one.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker for this opportunity. I want to bring to the attention of the House that today is Ash Wednesday. I want to take this opportunity to wish all the Catholic faithful in this House a fruitful Lent season. This is the time that the Catholic faithful start a journey of 40 days of prayer, fasting, and giving service to humanity. Today we were reminded that from dust we came, and to dust we shall return. It is also a time that we reflect on what we are doing now. We are halfway of our term. We should The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

reflect on the services we are giving to Kenyans. We should serve well. So, I want to wish all the Catholic faithful a blessed time in Lent season. In the same breadth, I also wish our Muslim faithful who started their Ramadan, happy Ramadhan. This is going to be a fruitful season as we continue to serve this country. I thank you.

Thank you, Hon. Sabina. Yes, Hon. Owen.

Hon. Speaker, I agree with Hon. Sabina. However, Ash Wednesday is not only exclusive to Catholics.

Pardon?

Ash Wednesday is not exclusive to Catholics. Even the Anglicans celebrate Ash Wednesday. Today at 6.00 O'clock, we will have our Ash Wednesday service at All-Saints Cathedral. Therefore, I want to wish all the Anglicans and any other faith that observes Ash Wednesday all the best during this Lent time. I wish that they will observe Lent well and continue to pray for this country during this time. I thank you.

Thank you for expounding on what she said. I join you in doing so. Yes, Oundo? Is that Hon. Oundo? Oh, it is the Member for Mukurweini.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I actually wanted to point out that the issue of the 40 days of Lent is not only confined to the Catholics and the Anglicans. It is an issue of all Christians.

Order! Why are you splitting hairs? She spoke as a Catholic so if you want to speak as an Anglican, go ahead and do so.

Hon. Speaker, I just wanted to point out that I hope that as we observe the 40 days of Lent, we will fix the issue of blood transfusion in Kenya. You may know that we are having a problem of reagents and blood bags. Kenyans are dying in hospitals today. It is a big problem when we do not have blood for transfusion just because we cannot test blood. I hope that as we observe this Lent period, we will sort this issue out as a matter of urgency before it escalates into a national crisis of monumental status.

Thank you, Kaguchia Next order.

The Leader of the Majority Party. Hon. Owen, is it you who will move it?

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I wish to...

Hon. Members, I bring to your attention that there is a Supplementary Order Paper approved by the House Business Committee. The Speaker approved it for publication and circulation. That is what we are using now.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I beg to move: THAT, pursuant to the provisions of Section 43(4) of the National Government Constituency Development Fund Act, 2015 and paragraphs 5(2) and (10) of the National Government Constituencies Development Fund Regulations, 2016, this House approves the list of nominees for appointment to the following one hundred Constituency Committees of the National Government Constituency Development Fund – I would like to give a warning that this is a very long list.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Owen, just say with the names as it appears on the order paper.

Thank you. Hon. Speaker. Can I take it again?

Yes.

(Kilifi North, UDA)

Thank you. I rise to second. As the Deputy Leader of the Majority Party has said, these nominees enable all the 100 constituency NG-CDF Committees to start functioning after approval by the House, as is required by the law. I beg to second.

Order. Members on their feet, take your seats. Hon. Rahab Mukami, take your seat.

Next Order.

The Chairperson of the Committee on Selection.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to move the following Motion: THAT, pursuant to the provisions of the Standing Order 175, and further to the resolution of the House on 27th October 2022, this House approves the appointment of Members to the respective Committees of the House as specified in the Schedule to the Supplementary Order Paper for 5th March 2025 (Afternoon Sitting).

Have you moved the Motion?

Yes, I have.

Have you moved? You say, ‘‘I beg to move the following Motion and read it as it is’’. Have you done so?

I have moved, Hon. Speaker.

Sorry. Some Members were talking to me. Go ahead.

I moved it.

Sorry. Two members were conversing with the Speaker.

Well guided, Hon. Speaker. As per the Standing Orders, there are Committees whose terms ended at the close of the last Session, and this has caused a lot of disruption as they have not been sitting during this period. I must say that the leadership of this House, both the Majority and Minority, has burnt the midnight oil to come up with this list. It may not always be pleasing to all. Our offices have been very busy. We have been approached by Members from all quarters, lobbying for specific Committees, which may be outside their expertise and interests. However, I want to say that this House is very rich in experience, with many impressive CVs. We have experienced lawyers, teachers, doctors and people from various professions. It is important that we share our experiences through these committees as we realign our goals and exchange ideas. The formation of these Committees has not been easy because there are many factors to consider when selecting even a single name. When you pull one, you affect the others. There is a question of regional balance, gender, experience, party politics and coalitions. It has not been easy. The House leadership met more than 16 times to come up with this list that we have here today. If we extended by a day, the list you see today would not have been the same as it was yesterday because any name that you touch from any angle, must affect another one. When we were coming up with this list, we did not look at the aspects being alluded to, for example, political pronouncements and persuasions. It was basically on political affiliations, as provided The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

for by the Standing Orders. Currently we have two main political affiliations: Kenya Kwanza Alliance or Azimio la Umoja-One Kenya Coalition Party. We also considered the question of gender and regional balance. The Budget and Appropriation Committee generated a high interest, with over 90 Members expressing interest in it. This was not very easy to decide; 90 Members expressed interest yet the Standing Orders only provide for 27. Therefore, the only way one can balance such issues is by coming up with a formula to consider aspects such as regional and gender balance, as well as political affiliations, negotiations and counter negotiations. This has not been very easy. Therefore, we urge this House to support this list as it is. There has also been a lot of politics as far as the formation of this list is concerned. There are sentiments that by the lapse of the formation of these committees, some Members will be moved, as the Chairpersons, from one side to another. I would like to inform the House that it is the Members who have been selected – upon their approval by this House – that will sit down, within seven days, and elect their own Chairpersons. Let it never come out there, for political reasons, that the leadership will influence the election of a specific Member as Chairperson and another one ejected. Those powers are not a preserve of the House leadership. It is the prerogative of the Members who sit on those committees to elect the Chairperson that they want and, therefore, such matters should not be politicised. If you lose an election in the committee that you have been placed in, do not blame some leaders or bring in the issue of politics and political persuasions; they are neither here nor there. Upon approval by this House, the membership of the committees, as indicated in the Schedule, have seven days to sit and elect their Chairpersons and Vice-Chairpersons. After that, they can come up with a schedule of their programmes. There are too many urgent matters that need to be handled. In the past two weeks, several urgent matters have been handled by the Liaison Committee. The Committee, through the Chairperson, the Deputy Speaker, has been very busy moving around the corridors doing the work that these committees ought to have done. That is why we urge that once the committees are formed, they should move with speed and elect their Chairpersons and Vice-Chairpersons. There are urgent matters that the committees should expedite. The issues such as NG-CDF, Budget Policy Statements (BPS) and the Supplementary Budget should be handled by these committees once they have been formed. Hon. Speaker, I beg to move, in the amended form, to include Hon. Irene Mayaka, who replaces Hon. Orero Peter Ochieng’, in the Committee on Regional Integration.

On which page?

Hon. Speaker, let me check the page. As I said earlier, this exercise has not been easy. The Committee on Regional Integration is on page 165 of the Order Paper. If you try to move one person from one committee to the other, you affect another one. So, I move in the amended form because I had earlier moved as it appeared in the Order Paper. But I now move in the amended form, to include Hon. Irene Mayaka who replaces Hon. Orero Peter Ochieng’ in the Committee on Regional Integration. Hon. Speaker, I move and request the most gracious Whip of the Minority Party, Hon. Millie Odhiambo, to second.

On a point of order, Hon. Speaker.

There cannot be anything out of order. The Motion has not been seconded. Go on, Hon. Millie.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise to second this Motion.

Are you seconding as it is or in the amended form?

I am sorry, Hon. Speaker. I second this Motion in the amended form. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I wish to indicate, just as the Whip of the Majority Party has indicated, that there are committees whose terms expired mid-term, therefore, were being reconstituted. But there are also Members who have shown different interests in other different committees. Further, there are also some vacancies that arose either because a Member passed on or lost the seat. We have done that as well. One of the things that I would wish to indicate is that during this process, I requested the Members in the Minority side to express interest in different committees. More than 40 Members expressed interest in changing committees. The Whip of the Majority Party has also indicated that most Members were interested primarily in four committees, including one committee in which I serve. I have had to let go of the committee. Despite that, some Members may feel like their interests have not been met. It could have been my wish and choice that everybody got what they wanted but, unfortunately, the vacant positions are not enough. I urge Members to borrow from me because in the last Parliament, I was in only one committee but I am still here, serving my fourth term. Sometimes it is not committees that make a difference but the work you do in this House and for your constituents. Some of the things that we took into consideration include the issue of gender, regional balance and ranking of Members, but in the process, some Members did not get what they wanted. I would like to reiterate that after this process, including the election of the Chairpersons and Vice-Chairperson, there will be a second round of re-organisation. I encourage Members who did not get the committees that they were interested in to hold on and wait for the second level re-organisation. Hon. Speaker, I second. I also thank Hon. Osoro. Thank you.

Order, Hon. Members. Those of you on your feet, take your seats.

Hon. Umulkher, there are too many empty seats where you are coming from. You should have taken the nearest one.

On a point of order, Hon. Speaker.

Order, Hon. Ngogoyo. You know the procedure. You are supposed to remain in your seat, and if you are given an opportunity to speak, that is when you stand up. You cannot be so presumptuous to assume that you will speak whenever you want to. What is your point of order?

Hon. Speaker, I rise under Standing Order 216(2) which states: “216. (2) A Member appointed to a Departmental Committee at the commencement of a Parliament or at any other time during the term of Parliament shall, unless the House otherwise resolves, serve for the term of the Parliament, subject to Standing Order 176.” Standing Order 176 provides the criteria for the discharge of a Member from a Committee. Standing Order 176(1) states: “176. (1) A party may discharge a Member from a select Committee after the Member has been accorded an opportunity to be heard.” Standing Order 176(2) states: The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

“176. (2) The party whip of the party that nominated a Member to a select Committee shall give notice in writing to the Speaker of the intention to discharge a Member from a select Committee.” Standing Order 176(3), which is most important, states: “176. (3) The Speaker shall, within three days of receipt of the notice under paragraph (2), inform the Member of the notice.” I am a Member of the Departmental Committee on Environment, Forestry and Mining. If I am to be removed from the Committee, Standing Order 176 shall apply under Standing Order 216. It is indicated in our Standing Orders. You cannot remove a Member from a Committee. I am not on the list of Members serving in the Departmental Committee on Environment, Forestry and Mining, which I was nominated to at the beginning of this Parliament. Even if Hon. Osoro and Hon. Ichung’wah do not want me on that Committee, they must remove me procedurally. Give me a hearing and notify the Speaker to give me a notice. It would not be in order to continue with whatever is happening here. It is okay to remove me from the Committee because our procedures and rules provide for it, but that should be done procedurally. Hon. Speaker, you are one of the creators of the Standing Orders. I have used them for the last 12 years. I was a Whip of a County Assembly so I know how to use the Standing Orders. I should receive a letter, be accorded a hearing, and notice given to the Speaker, who should inform me within three days. You cannot remove me. I have been a Member of that Committee, and I cannot be removed in the manner in which you want to, however powerful you might be. It is not correct. Whatever has been tabled before this House is null and void and cannot operate. We have Standing Orders, procedures, rules and traditions of this House. When Hon. Kimani Ichung’wah and several other Members were de-whipped from Committees, Hon. Wangwe, the immediate former Chief Whip of the Majority Party, wrote letters to specific Members. Apart from that, communications were done directly to the Speaker. The Speaker cannot oversee my removal from a Departmental Committee without I being discharged by my political party. Hon. Speaker, because you are the Solomon of this House, kindly do not proceed with this Motion in the state that it is in. It would be unprocedural. This is the making of Hon. Kimani Ichung’wah, which cannot work in this Assembly.

Yes, Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Speaker, the Member for Kajiado North Constituency is my very good friend who served as a Member of the County Assembly of Kajiado. He has clearly read out the Standing Orders. I will choose to ignore the invocation of my name, which is now a soft spot for those who have nothing else to speak about except Kimani Ichung’wah. I know why he is invoking my name, but I will restrict myself to the provisions of the Standing Orders. The Standing Orders make it clear that a Member shall serve on a Committee unless otherwise resolved by the House. Therefore, I implore the Member for Kajiado North Constituency that instead of carelessly invoking the name of Kimani Ichung’wah who is not the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, he should spend time convincing the House to resolve otherwise. The Chief Whip of the Majority Party is called Hon. Silvanus Osoro. My friend, go and do such things in the County Assembly of Kajiado, and not in the National Assembly. Spend your time in the National Assembly discussing matters of greater importance to the people of Kajiado North who are suffering without roads, and whose children cannot even go to school because their Member of Parliament is busy following people in some other villages somewhere. Why not follow your constituents and address their issues? I will not allow any Member to use my name to seek cheap publicity. Our Standing Orders are very clear, and Hon. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Ngogoyo should know that. Deal with matters to do with your constituency. There are some levels of insatiable greed that we cannot satisfy as a House. The issue raised is simple. Let Hon. Ngogoyo convince Members of this House to resolve otherwise. The Standing Orders he read are in very simple language that even a Member of a County Assembly can interpret.

You have made your point. Hon. Osoro.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. When I moved this Motion, I indicated that coming up with a list of Members appointed to various Committees is not easy. The movement of one Member to one Committee affects another Member.

Address the issue he has raised. It is very simple.

That is where I am heading to, Hon. Speaker. I am making my case that the movement of one Member to one committee must affect other Members because there are issues of regional, gender and party balance. I am not aware but I will check if his name is missing from the Committee that he intended to be included in or has been serving in. Thus, he must be placed somewhere else.

Take your seat. I expected you to be listening to the deliberations as a good lawyer. Hon. Ngogoyo is raising an objection under Standing Order 176 on the allegation of the discharge of a Member from a Committee. He is clearly out of order. The matter before the House is the reconstitution of Committees, not the discharge of Members from any Committee. If you looked at your Standing Orders very well, we are dealing with the reconstitution of Committees. It is up to the House to resolve that the list brought by the Majority and Minority Whips is voted on in the affirmative, whereafter Committees will be reconstituted, or voted on in the negative, whereafter I will send them back to the drawing board to reconstitute the Committees. When a Member is singularly or with another Member, discharged from a Committee, that will come to the House in a separate form, and I will address it when it does. Therefore, you are out of order.

Order, Hon. Ngogoyo. Yes, Hon. Kiamba.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I have a point to express in relation to the Committees. Some of us were not placed in Departmental Committees last time, and we went to the Chairpersons concerned and explained. Even up to now, we have not been placed in Departmental Committees. I find that very marginalising. There is no iota of accountability. Some Members are being treated as second-class Members of Parliament. Even after we have made official requests, we have not been placed in substantial Departmental Committees on two consecutive occasions. Is that fair? Some people are in more than two Departmental Committees. I am not here by accident; I am here by design. I represent people who need to hear my voice in areas that matter. This needs to be considered.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Thank you. Hon. Oundo.

Hon. Chair, I have keenly listened…

Address the Speaker.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I have keenly listened to the sentiments raised by Members, and the presentation by the Whip of the Majority Party. Hon. Chair…

Hon. Speaker. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Sorry, Hon. Speaker. I hope and pray that the statement made by the Majority Party Whip on the issue of appointment of chairpersons and vice-chairpersons is true and not meant for the public gallery. Members of Parliament are here by design, having been elected by their people. Hon. Speaker, we hope and pray that in your wisdom and good guidance to this House, you will not allow, attempt or permit any interference. Where issues are raised, allow the Members to exercise their democratic rights, and elect their leadership without interference from any quarter. I believe and trust that it has gone on The Hansard, and we will have no other interference from any other quarter.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Oundo, the Speaker has no role in the election of chairpersons of committees. I have been in this space for some time. When you go to committees, you have your vote. You are also subject to your whipping, the dynamics of your coalitions and parties. Therefore, I encourage you to leave the Speaker out of this. This is about the various coalitions and political parties in the House. On the point raised by the distinguished Member for Makueni, Hon. Kiamba in the House Business Committee, sits your team leader from Wiper Democratic Movement (WDM), who is also the Deputy Leader of the Minority Party in the Azimio Coalition. He is satisfied with the composition of the committees. Take the argument that you have proposed back to them and let them listen to you. This list was approved by the House Business Committee in which sits all your leadership; the Leader of the Majority Party, Majority Party Whip, Leader of the Minority Party, Minority Party Whip and your team leader within the enclave of WDM. They passed it there. Now that the matter has come to the Floor, you have only two options; to resolve to approve the list or to reject it. If you reject it, your leaders will go back to the drawing board to readjust, refresh and reflect on why the Motion has been negatived. As it is now, the Speaker cannot sit on appeal here. Just as Hon. Ngogoyo raised a good point but in a wrong forum. What is before the House is not a discharge but a reconstitution of Committees. If you have been wrongly discharged from a committee, I will listen to you and look at the provisions of Standing Order 176 then give you the due process that you deserve. As it is now, it is neither here nor there. Yes, Hon. Makali Mulu.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. As you have said, some of us have also been in this space for some time. I am not complaining. To me, a committee is a committee. Once you are there you have to serve. However, there are some facts that we must go on record so that as we go into the future, they will inform this House. When the Majority Party Whip was moving this Motion, he did not mention that there were some considerations made because we now have a broad-based Government. I am saying this because I was the Vice-Chairman of the Public Debt and Privatisation Committee for the last two-and-a-half years. As WDM. we agreed that our Members should remain in their respective committees without any movement. I am sure that was the position of my leader in this House, Hon. Mbui. Hon. Speaker, as you can see, I have been moved to another committee. I have no complaints and will serve faithfully. I want leaders in this House to learn. In the 12th Parliament, the Leader of the Majority Party was my Chairman in the Budget and Appropriations Committee. Due to political considerations, he was moved to another committee. I thought that this year he would take this opportunity and make sure that Members are not punished for relating with different individuals. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Even though we do not want to say it, the truth of the matter is that if we want this House to move to the next level in terms of democracy, we must allow Members to be in the committees that they request. It is very unfortunate that some Members are in two departmental committees while others are in two select committees. I thought that if they removed me from Public Debt and Privatisation Committee, they should give me a departmental committee so that I can also get a chance to serve there. I have been moved from one select committee to another. I am not complaining and will serve there faithfully. When all is said and done, Makali Mulu has a Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) in Economics. So, I thought I would serve better in Public Debt and Privatisation Committee than in the Committee on Regional Integration. I do not want to go beyond that. I will vote yes for the Motion and I want this to go on record.

Thank you, Hon. Makali Mulu. You have put it on record. Again, that is a good point being prosecuted in the wrong forum. That point should be prosecuted in the court of Hon. Robert Mbui, Hon. Millie Odhiambo and Hon. Junet Mohamed and not before the Speaker.

Order, Hon. Members. Members on your feet take your seats. Hon. Bowen, take your seat. Today you are very mobile. What is the problem? The Member standing at the back, take your seat. Hon. Members, since all I have been hearing are lamentations and not contributions to the Motion, allow me to put the Question.

Hon. Members, having passed that, you are obligated to elect leadership in the Committees that have been reconstituted; chairpersons and vice-chairpersons within seven days. This must be done on or before Wednesday next week. The Clerk is directed to release a schedule of meetings of various committees by 8.00 O’clock tomorrow morning. Make sure you observe that schedule and meet in the rooms directed, with the Clerk and his team superintending over the election of the leadership of committees. Be on the lookout for communication regarding select committees. Secondly, Hon. Millie Odhiambo was sufficiently clear in her contribution about gaps.

Order, Members. She said work is in progress where there are gaps or issues to be addressed, like the one of Hon. Ngogoyo and Hon. Makali Mulu. You can go back to your leadership. You will be listened to. They will discharge one Member for another if they find merit in what you raise, as in the case of Ngogoyo. You may do whatever replacements and bring that to the notice of the Speaker. We will give them due process as and when they come. Take this as a work in progress because these are dynamic processes. We lose Members to death and court processes from time to time. Others have to come to replace them in those positions. It is directed that the Clerk's schedule will be out by tomorrow morning. Start organising yourselves to elect your leadership. Finally, the chairperson or vice-chairperson of every committee is elected in accordance with the dynamics you all know. Therefore, go on, elect and give us a leadership that will help this House. I beseech those who will be elected as chairpersons or vice-chairpersons of committees to be the first to create quorum in the House at all times. To whom more is given, much more is expected. Those who will be given the privilege to lead committees should be The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

the first to arrive in this House and the last to leave. As I told you, yours truly here and during my many years, the Speaker always found me in the Chamber. I followed the Speaker out of the Chamber every single working day. Hon. Keynan is my witness. Please try to give this House quorum to work. Thank you. The Chairlady of the Liaison Committee, who is the Deputy Speaker will move the Motion that follows. We thank her for improvising our operations in the absence of the committees. She chaired the Liaison Committee and gave the House progress on our work. Go ahead.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I beg to move the following Motion: THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Liaison Committee on its consideration of the 2025 Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy laid on the Table of this House on Wednesday, 5th March 2025 and pursuant to the provisions of Section 15(4) of the Public Finance Management Act, 2012 and Standing Order 232(A)(7) and (8)- a) approves the 2025 Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy. b) make the Policy and Financial Resolutions contained in the Schedule to the Order Paper.

Order, Hon. Members conducting various illegal kamkunjis. Hon. Deputy Speaker, hold a bit. Hon. Mathenge and your group. Is that Hon. Mathenge? Hon. Karemba you are holding an illegal kamkunji in the Chamber when a very important Motion is being moved. I expect dead silence. Go on, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. The 2025 MTDS aims to optimise access to external concessional borrowing and undertake liability management to minimise the costs and risks in Kenya's debt portfolio. External borrowing is relatively cheaper than domestic debt due to the large share of concessional loans from multilateral lenders such as the World Bank and our development partners. Indeed, 54 per cent of the total external debt portfolio is concessional. This significantly contributes to the sustainability of Kenya's debt. During our review and as previously mentioned, we noted that external commercial borrowing is relatively expensive compared to concessional loans. To address this issue, the 2025 MTDS proposes to reduce the share of commercial loans by taking various measures, including paying off some of the most expensive loans and exploring cheaper debt instruments such as our green bonds. Following the review of the 2025 MTDS, the Committee observed that the Government will borrow Ksh831.1 billion. That is equivalent to the fiscal deficit in the 2025 Budget Policy Statement (BPS). The amount to be borrowed will be sourced from domestic and external sources at a ratio of 65 per cent and 35 per cent, respectively. We were informed by the National Treasury and Economic Planning that it is important to have a mix of different types of debt so that we spread our risks from financial shocks.

The Committee also made the following key recommendations, which I urge Members to support. There are non-financial recommendations and financial recommendations. The non- financial recommendations we are requesting the House to support are the following: 1. That, to meet the Public Finance Management (PFM) Act, 2012 threshold of debt to GDP in Present Value Terms of 55 per cent (plus 5 per cent) by 2028, the Cabinet Secretary for the National Treasury and Economic Planning should publish quarterly reports detailing progress on the fiscal consolidation as outlined in the 2025 BPS. Currently the National Treasury and Economic Planning is operating at 63 per cent, which is above the requirements of the PFM Act, but they have undertaken that they will reduce it as per the requirement by 2028. They seek the support of this House as they take steps to ensure that this happens. 2. That, the Cabinet Secretary for the National Treasury and Economic Planning, the Governor of the Central Bank of Kenya and the Controller of Budget should fully automate the withdrawal of debt service payments from the Consolidated Fund by 31st May 2025 and submit a report to this House within 15 days. 3. That, to strengthen the financial controls, ensure accurate and timely public debt statistics and enhanced decision making for greater transparency and accountability, the National Treasury should integrate the Public Debt Management System with the Integrated Financial Management System (IFMIS) by 31st May 2025 and submit a report to the National Assembly within 15 days of implementation.

4. That, to mitigate the growing risk of domestic debt and interest payments and to reduce the tendency by the Government of borrowing funds held by public The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

entities, the National Treasury should deploy a Treasury Single Account (TSA) for all Ministries, Departments and Agencies (MDAs) by 1st July 2025. This will be revolutionary in our financial management, governance, transparency and accountability in public debt management. This is the first time this is happening. We were informed that many MDAs and parastatals do not want this system because of its great transparency and accountability. 5. That, to improve transparency and accountability in the anticipated increase in domestic borrowing, the Cabinet Secretary for the National Treasury and Economic Planning should do the following within 60 days— (a) Form a working committee to establish criteria for assessing the effectiveness of utilisation of borrowed funds by MDAs, establish a registrar of government securities pursuant to Section 55 of the PFM Act, 2012. (b) To record in the debt register the details of the utilisation of the borrowed funds, including the set of projects funded from the proceeds of infrastructure bonds. 6. That, the Cabinet Secretary for the National Treasury and Economic Planning should establish an inter-agency committee including representatives from the Central Bank of Kenya and the Controller of Budget to review the public debt procurement process, debt utilisation and submit a report to the National Assembly by 31st May 2025. 7. The Cabinet Secretary for the National Treasury and Economic Planning shall report and seek approval from the National Assembly on any variation to the approved borrowing mix in the 2025 MTDS which we have submitted now. The financial recommendation are as follows: 1. That, the fiscal target for the Medium-Term is approved and set at 4.3 per cent of GDP for Financial Year 2025/2026; 3.5 per cent of GDP for the Financial Year 2026/2027 and 3.2 per cent of GDP for the Financial Year 2027/2028, in line with the fiscal consolidation path. 2. That, the country’s borrowing strategy is approved at 35 per cent for net external borrowing and 65 per cent for domestic borrowing as contained in the 2025 MTDS. Finally, I thank the House for giving the Liaison Committee the responsibility of considering the MTDS. It was a unique opportunity for chairpersons of various committees to appreciate the state of the economy regarding the constrained fiscal space since it affects various programmes that require financing in all sectors. As I said earlier, the Committee was very diligent and worked up to 10.00 p.m. the night before and midnight last night. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I beg to move and request Hon. Wangari, Member for Gilgil and Vice-Chairperson to second.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. Allow me to second this Motion. I join my Chairperson in appreciating Members of the Liaison Committee. This was not a usual task. Many Chairpersons appear before the Budget and Appropriations Committee. For the first time, they were able to…

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Order, Hon. Members. Hon. Murugara, Hon. Tindi Mwale, Hon. Rindikiri and Hon. Makilap could you all take your seats. Consult in low tones so that we can hear the Member contributing.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, thank you for the protection. For the first time, chairpersons of departmental committees interacted directly with the MTDS and more importantly, engaged stakeholders on it. That gave us a unique opportunity to have a dashboard experience in terms of the general overview in the country. We have also taken time to learn a lot of terms that we did not know. I used to think ATM only means Automated Teller Machine. I have realised it has another new meaning which is the Average Time for Maturity of debt. There are many issues and I know the Chairlady has enumerated most of them. I will touch on some of the issues that were raised.

Order, Hon. Members. We are discussing a very important Motion. I wish that we hear the Member in silence.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. There is a lot of excitement. I think it is because of the previous Motion that has passed on the Floor of the House. On some of the issues that we have raised, we took time to meet with different stakeholders. We met with the Controller of Budget, the office of the Auditor-General and Ministry of National Treasury and Economic Planning until late last night. We also met and received memoranda from other stakeholders, including a civil society that wrote to us. We also got a written memorandum from the Central Bank of Kenya (CBK). Our debt has been a matter of discussion for obvious reasons. It puts a strain in the management of our revenue versus expenditure. The reason it is heavy in our budget is because it has also risen over the years. Right now, we are speaking of 67.5 per cent of the GDP, against a recommendation and something that is put in law under the PFM Act of 55 per cent (plus 5 per cent) by 2028. One of the issues that we raised with the National Treasury was their timeline, in terms of ensuring that our debt is manageable and has come down to the recommended percentage. The Cabinet Secretary for the National Treasury was very clear that it has been declining. We are now at 65.7 per cent but very soon, he said by 2028, we will not have 55 per cent, but 53 per cent. Fiscal deficit is the difference between government revenue and spending in any fiscal year. It is at 4.3 per cent of GDP this year, it is estimated to be at 3.5 per cent of GDP in the Financial Year 2026/2027. It will eventually be at 3.2 per cent in the Financial Year 2027/2028. The issue of balance of these debts in terms of internal and external borrowing was another matter that was very critical. It has been proven that we are relying more on domestic borrowing than external borrowing. I know the internal borrowing is termed higher and more expensive. That is why you see the rates are different. During our review, we realised that the average interest charged on domestic debt is 13.2 per cent, relative to the interest rate on external debt which is 3.7 per cent, thus becoming substantially more expensive. The reason external borrowing is relatively cheaper than domestic borrowing is due to the large share of concessional loans from multilateral lenders such as the World Bank and our development partners. Indeed, 54 per cent of the total external debt portfolio is concessional which significantly contributes to the sustainability of Kenya's debt. The other issue that Members raised is right application of debt. What does that mean? There is no single country I have heard in the world that does not have debt. However, where it goes is what Kenyans and many of our voters are keen on. If you are borrowing to build The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

roads, which are they? If you are borrowing to construct dams, which ones are they? That is why one of the recommendations that we have put to the National Treasury is that it should, in the next very few days, form a working committee to assess the effective utilisation of these borrowed funds. This will be a cross-cutting team by MDAs and the Controller of Budget so that we are able to incorporate how to monitor these debts well. The other recommendation is that the National Treasury will be expected to record in the debt register the details of this utilisation. The inter-agency team is supposed to do exactly that. Through our engagement with the Controller of Budget, a very brilliant lady, we found out that some of our neighbouring countries are doing very well, in terms of managing their debts and even making this information available. Article 35 of the Constitution ensures that you are able to get this information very easily. It should not be so hard to know how much we owe which country and in what terms. When the Controller of Budget appeared before us, she gave us very interesting information about the United Republic of Tanzania. She had just come from there. She told us that they had implemented an advanced and fully functional automated debt management system integrated with cash management system. As a country, sometimes, we get jittery in terms of getting efficiency. We have the brains, know-how and know what to do. We should have an automated debt management system integrated together with IFMIS. This is not so hard so as to ensure efficiency and account for our debt, shilling by shilling. Hon. Temporary Speaker, the other issue that the Controller of Budget told the Committee is that Tanzania has also achieved a single treasury account. This means that they are able to track the monies better instead of having multiple accounts across the place. I know there has been debate, especially on the pay bill No.222222 which is e-citizen, and the one pay bill that is for the Government. However, that is a medium but not an account. We should have one single treasury account. This will help us to track our monies and see exactly where our debt is going. I know time is limited. I see my light is on. I would like to appreciate our Parliamentary Budget Office…

I will give you one more minute.

It will help me to wind up. The Parliamentary Budget Office is quite key. When we were doing these appearances, we got staff members from the National Treasury and Parliament of Zimbabwe benchmarking to find out how we do it. I appreciate all the teams and these Members who sat for long hours to ensure that we are here today. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker for the additional time. I second the Motion.

Put the Question.

You do not catch the eye of the Speaker by doing that. You know that very well. You do it by logging in. I will follow the table that is here. The first person is Hon. George Gitonga Murugara. Do you want to contribute to this Motion? Leader of the Majority Party, I cannot see your card.

Sorry, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Hon. Murugara your chance was lost because you were busy. Allow the Leader of the Majority Party to contribute first and then you contribute after him.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for your indulgence. The Deputy Speaker is saying I never have a card. I usually have one but I lost it in the crowd that was here. I do not know who took it. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I rise to support this Motion on the Consideration of the 2025 MTDS. I want to speak to a few things on policy propositions or resolutions that the Committee has noted, which I fully concur with. One is on automation. The policy resolutions states that, the Cabinet Secretary for the National Treasury, the Governor of CBK and the Controller of Budget should fully automate the withdrawal of debt service payments from the Consolidated Fund by 31st of May this year and submit a report to the National Assembly. I support because part of the problem we cannot get accurate data on our indebtedness as a country is that we have not fully automated our debt management processes. The other proposal is that, in order to strengthen financial controls, we ensure accurate and timely debt management statistics and enhanced decision-making for greater transparency and accountability. Again, they are asking that the National Treasury must integrate the public debt management system with IFMIS by 31st of May this year and then submit a report to the National Assembly within 15 days after the integration of the two systems. It has become customary for this House to pass policy resolutions for enactment or implementation by the National Treasury, most of which they tend to ignore. I want to tell them that for all these policy resolutions, there is a need to automate all our systems. Integration of IFMIS and the debt management system is critical in ensuring that we have accurate, timely data on our total indebtedness as a country. At the same time, there should be automation of the debt payment systems from the Consolidated Fund Services so that at any particular time at the touch of a button, any officer in the National Treasury, at the request of the National Assembly or any other oversight authority, can tell how much has been paid out of our Consolidated Fund towards debt settlement and how much we expect to pay in terms of the interest for debt. All these will be possible with automation. Thirdly, I want to speak on the Treasury Single Account (TSA). The Committee proposed that in order to mitigate the growing risk of domestic debt, interest payments and reduce the tendency of the Government to borrow funds held by public entities the National Treasury should deploy the TSA for all MDAs, parastatals and public funds by 1st July 2025. Allow me to speak to this in relation to a directive that His Excellency the President gave during the State of the Nation Address last year. Previously, the former President...

Hon. Kangogo, I will not tire of reminding you. I came to this House on 28th March 2013. You are not the person speaking now. You cannot be between him and the Speaker when he is contributing. You cannot.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Hon. Pukose says Hon. Kangogo is very mobile today. I do not know whether there are cows that have disappeared somewhere in Marakwet East. I was saying that during the last Parliament, former President Uhuru Kenyatta, at one point also directed that the National Treasury actualise the TSA. This never happened. Now that it has been done through a resolution of the House, the National Treasury has no choice but to actualise. His Excellency the President, during the State of the Nation Address, directed that by 30th April this year, the question of public procurement must be sorted out through e- procurement and ensuring …

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for adding me one minute. As I was saying, the directive by the President has another one-and-a-half month to go. The National Treasury must also, in line with the directive by the President, ensure that e- procurement becomes a reality at the end of this first quarter. By the time the National Treasury brings its annual estimates on 29th or 30th April, it must report to the House whether it has made the e-procurement a reality. By 31st May, it must report on the automation of IFMIS, the debt management system and TSA. The funds held by MDAs have become an avenue for corruption. You find bank managers queuing in state departments and parastatals because many of them hold huge amounts of money in bank accounts earning small interest. Then, the same money is given to the Government in terms of domestic public debt. There is no reason why the Government should be borrowing its own money. We must ensure that the TSA becomes a reality so, that even when we borrow money, we are not borrowing our own money. There is no reason why an MDA should bank in a commercial bank and earn interest of 4 or 5 per cent and then we go back as the Government and borrow the same money from the market from 11 to12 per cent. It is not right and we must ensure this does not happen. I hope the Cabinet Secretary of the National Treasury and Economic Planning, Hon. John Mbadi, who is a former member of the Budget and Appropriations Committee and the Principal Secretary Kiptoo are listening to me. They must actualise the TSA. The automation that this House has recommended in this policy resolution must not be a talk, but must be actualised. May I remind them what the President directed during the State of the Nation Address that by the end of the first quarter, we expect to see e-procurement in place. I beg to support.

Before you sit, what will happen to them if they do not actualise? This is not the first time we are talking about the TSA. What will happen to them?

Hon. Temporary Speaker, it is not up to me to say what will happen to them. But if the appointing authority has publicly pronounced himself...

No! This is will be a House resolution.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, House resolutions are in writing and are given to the National Treasury upon approval. When they receive them, they should start to count the days up to 31st May and 31st July for actualisation of the TSA. If they do not, they will know that we have teeth to bite. Those who have refused and threatened Members of Parliament by the road sides have seen what happens.

This is your chance Hon. Murugara.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Speaker. Allow me to support the adoption of the report of the Liaison Committee on its consideration of the MTDS, which we are dealing with this afternoon. It is extremely important for this House to know that it is supposed to control the debt of the country. That a debt management system should be in place which is easy to comprehend and understand. In the country, many people think we borrow money and do not account for it. So, it is looted and as a result everybody, including those who are not yet born are debt-ridden. It is not true to say so, because having listened to the officers from the Central Bank and the National Treasury, there are systems in place. Unfortunately, they are not known by Members of Parliament and the public. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

As a result, we are all in limbo. As we start this constitutional mandate we have of maintaining the debt system in the country, it is important to implore the National Treasury to avail the necessary paperwork which must be easy to understand and comprehend. Kindly, allow me to touch on one of the issues that arose regarding our debts in the meetings we held with the Cabinet Secretary of the National Treasury. We were convinced that most of the money that we borrow goes to recurrent expenses and not development. This is why there is a hue and cry in the country as to why we borrow and cannot see any development. Hon. Temporary Speaker, it was explained to us that if you borrow money and you do not use it prudently, later on, you would have two problems. One, the debt would be unpopular. Two, you would not see the sense of repaying, and this is the reason why some countries default on their debt obligations. Therefore, it is vitally important for the country to know that we are incurring debts, both domestic and external, but the purpose of those debts is to ensure that the country is better than where it is. We posed one question: Are there countries in this world that are debt-free? We felt that Kenya would in future be a debt-free country. The economists and finance specialists informed us that they are not aware of any country in the world that is debt- free. What they know for sure is that some developed countries are more indebted than developing countries, but they use their monies very prudently. Therefore, to improve transparency and accountability in the anticipated increase of domestic borrowing, the Cabinet Secretary for the National Treasury should do the following: 1. Within 60 days, form a working committee to establish criteria for assessing effective utilisation of borrowed money; and 2. Record the debt register in details on the utilisation of the money, so that everybody who wants to know how a debt was spent has that information. With those remarks, I beg to support.

Next is the Member for Kitui Central.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. From the outset, I thank the Liaison Committee for a job well done. It is not always easy to go through the Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy and come up with recommendations. I have looked at the report and it really brings out very important issues regarding managing our public debt. I want to focus on three issues which have been captured in the report. First is the issue of the ratio being above 55 per cent, as approved by this House. The intention was that by 2028, the Government, through fiscal consolidation, will be able to bring this ratio back to either 55 per cent or below 55 per cent. However, with the way things are, I can say without any fear of contradiction that if we do not change our attitude towards how we spend our money as a country, we will never be below 55 per cent. As recommended by this report, this is a matter that the National Treasury should take seriously. We need to work towards bringing this figure to below 55 per cent. Second is the ratio of domestic debt to external debt. The current proposed ratio is 35 per cent for external debt and 65 per cent for domestic debt. If you look at the statistics of our debt repayment, particularly interest repayment, you will realise that even though domestic debt is about 51 per cent and external debt is about 49 per cent, 70 per cent of the total annual interest paid goes to domestic debt, while 30 per cent goes to external debt. In simple terms, we are saying that domestic debt is very expensive. The way forward to help this country is to go slow on domestic debt and increase external debt. We know the challenges the country is facing in accessing external debt, but I believe it is the responsibility of the Kenya Kwanza Government, through the National Treasury, to ensure that they do what it takes to reduce domestic borrowing and increase external borrowing. In that case, we would be helping the country. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

The third point is the issue of the Treasury Single Account. This has become a song in this Republic and in this House. You and I have served in the Budget and Appropriations Committee for a long time, and the Treasury Single Account is something we have talked about for over 10 years. I always wonder why we cannot implement the recommendation to operationalise the Treasury Single Account. I see a recommendation that it should be done by 1st July 2025. How I wish this time, this House will enforce that recommendation so that by 1st July 2025, we will be talking about a Treasury Single Account. There are very many benefits which accrue to that account, and this country will benefit in a bigger way if we move in that direction. Lastly, Hon. Temporary Speaker, is the issue of the digitisation of our public debt. The other day, you saw in the newspaper that this country has been operating a manual system. Kenya prides itself on being the regional leader. You have heard the stories about Tanzania and Uganda. Our neighbours are doing better in managing public debt, and the reason they have gone digital is to reduce issues of corruption. The longer we remain on a manual system, the more we open wide doors for corruption. We should take the migration of our public debt management from a manual system to a digital system seriously. With those many remarks, I support this Report.

Next is Hon. Mutunga.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for the opportunity to add my voice to this very important debate in support of the adoption of the Liaison Committee Report on the Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy for 2025/2026. Borrowing is a necessity; it is not a bad idea. As many have spoken to it, rarely will you find countries that do not borrow. Individuals who do not borrow, do not grow fast. So, borrowing is not really a bad thing. The borrowing strategy is anchored on macroeconomic indicators outlined in the 2025 Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy. The strategy is backed by stable inflation rates. Kenya is experiencing some of the lowest inflation rates in over 10 years. On the other hand, it is also anchored on robust economic growth, which is abridged at around 5 per cent. It is also anchored on stable exchange rates and we can clearly attest to the fact that our exchange rates are not bad. The shilling has strengthened to between Ksh128 and Ksh130, depending on where you seek for exchange. Additionally, it is anchored on favourable global economic conditions, which we may not have full control of, and also strong revenue collection. This country has been doing very well in terms of revenue collection, and even if we sometimes miss the point, it is not by a great percentage. The Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy is also strongly based on the planned reduction of the fiscal deficit, being the difference between what the country can support and what needs to be sourced outside. This reduction basically harnesses revenue collection, which has been taken care of while limiting unproductive expenditure growth. Let me very briefly talk to the fact that the 2025-2026 Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy proposes that Kenya will borrow Ksh831 billion, which represents the deficit between the total revenue collected and the budgeted amount. The total projected domestic borrowing is projected to be 65 per cent. Many of us have spoken to that fact. It is expensive to borrow locally. However, the medium-term proposals or projections indicate that Kenya will be borrowing externally at a rate of about 45 per cent, which will bring down our borrowing to 55 per cent. That is within the acceptable limits. That reduction is key because it will also come with a lot of cost reduction. We will be borrowing from outside through concessional borrowing at a rate of 14 per cent, semi-concessional borrowing at around 3 per cent, and commercial borrowing at 8 per cent. For that to happen, certain factors must be put in place. That is why we cannot borrow a lot externally. As I mentioned, we need stable exchange rates. Macro-fiscal variables that The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

influence international credit must also be in our favour, which will allow Kenya to access external debts at acceptable rates. The better our credit rating is, the more we can be seen as a preferred investment destination, and the more we can bargain. The Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy takes into account several challenges, which I would like to highlight. One of them is the sovereign credit rating. The future credit rating gives Kenya a positive outlook, which means we are stable. The other one is the external factors which control market volatility. That influences the timing and the cost of the debt operations themselves. There are also increased debt servicing costs, which are important. Having noted those challenges, the Strategy goes further…

I will give you 30 seconds. You do not have the whole...

You should not be highlighting anything. You should be winding up.

Tigania West, UDA): Hon. Temporary Speaker, let me wind up by saying that the Strategy indicates an approach to those challenges. It does not just appreciate that there are challenges; it also gives an approach to dealing with those challenges. First, is to centralise trade to a single trade repository. That will help us to do better price discovery, which will help us in preparedness. The other one is to operationalise the Sinking Fund, which will help us to reduce the risk of borrowing. Finally, is the improvement of cash management, which will help us to contain the use of overdrafts. Overdrafts are normally very expensive. The other strategy is to sustain fiscal consolidation, which has been happening in the country, and is moving towards the reduction of public debt accumulation. With those very few remarks, I support the adoption of the Report.

Member for Marakwet East.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I am a Member of the Liaison Committee. We had a long discussion with the National Treasury on the Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy, which is a global practice on how governments manage their debts. Debt management in Kenya has been kept secret from the public for a while. Many Members of this House do not understand how it is carried out in the National Treasury. We observed that the country's debt stands at Ksh11.2 trillion, which is equivalent to 65.7 per cent of our Gross Domestic Product (GDP). It is almost 10 per cent above what this House approved. I want to highlight a few issues out of what the National Treasury presented. The National Treasury is going to borrow close to Ksh832 billion to close the deficit for the Financial Year 2025/2026. They will do that through foreign borrowing at 35 per cent and domestic borrowing at 65 per cent. One issue that came out very clearly is that as a country, compared to other jurisdictions like Tanzania and Uganda, we do not have a debt committee. Our debt is just managed by a few individuals at the National Treasury. We told the National Treasury yesterday that there is need for the National Treasury, the Central Bank of Kenya (CBK), and the Office of Controller of Budget to form a team, together with the Office of the Attorney-General of Kenya to manage our debts as a country. Second, is on debt procurement. This is money we are borrowing. The National Treasury must be subjected to a procurement process like any other procurement process in the country. We have a deficit of Ksh832 billion. The National Treasury should advertise the tender, conduct public participation and procure in an open process. This is so that we can know the rate at which we are getting funds from our local banks like the Kenya Commercial The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Bank (KCB) and the Equity Bank. We should not just have a few individuals locking themselves in a room somewhere within the National Treasury and agreeing with some CEOs on how borrowing will be done. Third, we need to digitise the entire debt management system. We have a very robust Integrated Financial Management Information System (IFMIS). It runs as a single Government payment system, but it is not integrated with the Government payroll, pensions or procurement systems. It is one single payment entry. The Government payroll system should be integrated with IFMIS, so that we can do away with ghost workers. It should be integrated with e- procurement for transparency to stop corruption. It should also be integrated with our registration system so that when one dies in employment and is automatically removed from the Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA) system, he or she is also automatically removed from the payroll system. By doing so, we will improve how we manage our debt as a country. I support the Report.

Member for Seme.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. This is a very good development. The debt management strategy has not always been part of the budget process. We did not do it during my first term in Parliament. We started mentioning it during my second term. It has now become a normal part of the budget process, as it should be. I appreciate the work the Liaison Committee has done. Debt is normal. Borrowing is important if we are to grow, develop, and improve our infrastructure. In that process, we will generate jobs and businesses. We need debt. Even at a personal level, you can never grow if you do not borrow. However, as much as debt is necessary, it also has risks. If you borrow money without a clear way of using it, you will have a problem. It will derail the economy. Therefore, a debt management strategy is a must. It will help us to set up thresholds like the debt to GDP ratio. The amounts you borrow must depend on what you generate. A guiding threshold is extremely important. That is what a debt management strategy is. There are also issues like fiscal deficit to GDP ratio. When coming up with the budget, the gap between what we have and what we want must be related to what we can generate. If those parameters guide us and that is the management strategy, then it is important to have a threshold between external and domestic debt. We may think that the bigger problem is external debt, but domestic debt is a problem on its own. First, it crowds out borrowing opportunities for local businesses. Second, the interest rates on domestic debt are more expensive. So, in the end it hurts. We should have a clear criterion that sets a limit on the debt ratio that we should adhere to. I like the recommendations presented on the automated debt management system. If we have an automated system, it will definitely reduce graft and discretion. Without automation, people use discretion and their whims. An automated system checks them. They have to go against it and once they do that, somebody will pick it. So, having an automated system is extremely important.

If we have an automated debt management system, it must be linked to how the money is being used. If we have such a system like the Integrated Financial Management Information System (IFMIS), we can link it to all aspects of financial expenditure like procurement, human resource and debt. It is easier at that point to get things done properly.

I like the recommendation of having a treasury single account. It is ridiculous to borrow your own money. Government agencies bank their money and the Government goes to the same bank to borrow the money. So, the Government borrows its own money at a higher risk. The recommendation is good. As recommended here, we should establish a criterion for assessing the effective utilisation of borrowed money. And that is how it should be. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

With those remarks, I support this Report. I commend the Committee for bringing it forward. This should become part and parcel of our budget process.

Member for Yatta.

Thank you Hon. Temporary Speaker for allowing me to contribute to the Report from the Liaison Committee. Borrowing is not a problem, the problem is when we borrow and waste the money. We need to cut wastages and theft. Generation Zoomers talked of austerity measures, and even the President banned politicians from participating in harambees . I was shocked to see the Head of State donating Ksh20 million in a church. Being the Head of State, we respect him. But it is important.…

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Hon. (Dr) Pukose, what is out of order?

Hon. Temporary Speaker, we are discussing the Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy, which is before the House. I think the Hon. Member is digressing and is out of order by bringing matters that are irrelevant. I do not know whether he understands what we are discussing because what he is actually saying is completely out of order. It is not relevant to the discussion that is before the House. Could the Member be declared to be out of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker?

Hon. Robert, your namesake is Hon. (Dr) Robert Pukose. The younger Hon. Robert, could you relate to us what you are saying with the debt strategy?

You know, Hon. Temporary Speaker, I respect my namesake Hon. (Dr) Pukose. But what I want to remind him is that we are talking about Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy and we are talking about a public debt management system. So, when I talk about wastage, that is part of public debt management. It is within the public debt.

No! No! The rules say that a Member who contributes must be relevant. He is asking how harambee contributions are relevant to the Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy. That is the issue.

That is why I am trying to explain to him. When you see the Head of State contributing, we are trying to see or explain whether this money could be coming from public debt. Remember we borrow money for the public. No! Wait a minute.

You are completely out of order on that. Please, proceed and prosecute your point.

I was trying to emphasise or put across something. I think the Member needs to listen to me carefully because whatever we do is for generations to come and not just now. We need to use our money prudently when we talk about public debt management systems. Why borrow money to misuse? Our budget is never itemised. That is why accountability is required. We recommend digitising public debt management systems to promote accountability and transparency in the usage of borrowed money or public debt. The debt to GDP ratio of countries like Japan stands at over 200 per cent. The debt to GDP ratio of countries like the United States of America stands at 98 per cent. Our debt to GDP ratio is at 68 per cent. The only challenge we have is that the money we borrow is never used prudently. That is the point I am trying to underscore to Members and the country at large. As Members just mentioned, look at the IMF that has put the threshold of borrowing money at 55 per cent. That is the public debt for developing countries. We are recommending The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

ours at over 55 per cent. We need to be careful. Otherwise, we are going to burden Kenyans with debt. That will be extremely unacceptable considering that the cost of living is already through the roof. In a nutshell, going forward and as a way of ensuring prudent use of our public resources or public debt management, I recommend that we invest in production to generate raw materials and finished products to mitigate importation and reverse our balance of trade that is currently negative. Importantly, we need to have a proper system such as having one account within the Treasury. That is so that we seal loopholes through which our resources disappear hence causing an increase in debt due to unaccounted money. Kenyans continue to feel the pinch. I am not trying to attack or dilute the discussion by referring to some accusations where Kenyans would be agitated to say their resources are not being used prudently. That is the reason the Gen Z called for austerity measures. With that, I submit.

Thank you. Member for Baringo, proceed.

Thank you. I also join the Members who have spoken before me. I support and weigh my thoughts into this Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy of 2025. This Report has come at a very good time when we are right in the middle of our term since election. This Report shows the growth that we have so far undertaken through our economy. As most Members have said, borrowing is not a problem. The problem is where we put the money after borrowing. Automatically, you will end up pushing yourself to make sure you pay back the money you borrowed. We are grappling with many vices that contribute to wastage in Kenya today—pilferage and embezzlement of public funds because of lack of proper infrastructure and ways of ensuring that money is taken care of. In this case, the Report suggests that the National Treasury that handles money must by all means make sure that Ministries, Departments, and Agencies (MDAs), and parastatals, use one monitoring channel to make sure they utilise money given to them. The people who handle money are at the Treasury. The Report suggests that the officers must, by all means, make sure that the treasury single account is in place so that all MDAs use one payment channel. Many times we lose money and do not understand where the problem comes from. The people who cause most of the corruption in this country are those who draft budgets. They are the people who decide how much money is borrowed and where the money is used. If we have the single treasury account, we will curb most of the problems we have here today.

The inter-agency committee should be enhanced to curb runway corruption in most ministries. We also need to check career civil servants who have worked up to 10 or 20 years. There is a possibility of budgeted corruption because of the positions they occupy. They know how much is needed and they are the ones who control budgets. As the National Assembly, we will do our oversight role to make sure that this Report is acted upon to the letter. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Thank you. Member for Tinderet.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise to support this Report by the Liaison Committee, where I sit as a member. This Report is very important because it provides strategies on how to manage our debt in the Medium-Term. This debt management strategy is a policy document which all countries around the globe have. It is a policy document initiated as a result of world financial crash occasioned by huge debt burden. Across the globe, in our homes and institutions, we have debts. Unmanaged debt is very risky, costly and expensive. It actually depresses economic development. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

In effect, this particular strategy is very good. I laud the National Treasury for having come up with it. The document says that we need detailed quarterly reports on the progress with fiscal consolidation as outlined in the 2025 BPS. The 2025 BPS is a policy document giving direction on the Budget for the Financial Year 2025/2026. The Report also provides how to manage our debt. Our debt has grown over the years to around Ksh11 trillion. It is supposed to be managed. Hon. Temporary Speaker, in managing debt, we need to know where we borrow from. If we borrow externally, it means the pool of money is large. Therefore, the loans will be cheaper. If we borrow locally, two things will happen. We will compete with private entities and individuals causing interest rates to rise. Secondly, we will depress the overall development of our economy. If you look at these debts, 65 per cent local and 35 per cent external, they are wrongly skewed. We need to have borrowed more externally and less internally to allow Kenyans and institutions to borrow within, therefore lowering interest rates. Why do we borrow? We need to do it responsibly and ensure accountability. Any money borrowed should be reflected in roads, electricity, healthcare facilities, schools and other facilities that we are borrowing for. That is why the third recommendation on the integration of the Debt Management System with the Integrated Financial Management System (IFMIS) by 31st May is highly laudable. Every time we borrow money, we need to know how it is utilised, the areas it funds and most importantly, the value it brings. At the end of the day, it will be of value to Kenyans. Another recommendation I laud is where most of the institutions like the state agencies bank in local banks, and then the National Government goes to borrow its money. This practice needs to stop. I laud the National Treasury for coming out very clearly on this. It has been recommended that the National Treasury and the Central Bank of Kenya (CBK) should ensure this practice stops. Lastly, we need to digitise and make sure that our borrowing is...

Give me one minute, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Why should you have one minute? Okay, you have one minute.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. All the itemised loans that we have need to be integrated into the financial systems. Even as we procure loans—and I laud what the Member for Marakwet East said—it must be done publicly. No loan should be procured by two or three individuals in the National Treasury and agreed upon without understanding its consequences and risks involved. Everyone has to know about it and how expensive or cheap it is for the sake of our country.

I support the Motion, Hon. Temporary Speaker. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Funyula.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. As it is required by the Constitution of Kenya and the Public Finance Management Act, at the commencement of any financial year, the National Treasury must present a Public Debt Management Strategy to the House. The only concern and fear that we have always had is that many a time the Strategy that is always presented in this House might end up just being an empty ritual. It is a matter to placate the provisions of the law and making Kenyans believe that the Government is serious about managing debt. This has never been the case. How does debt arise? It is very simple. You budget what you want to spend, look at the revenues that you can collect, and you borrow the deficit. It, therefore, means that as a country, we are living beyond our means. If our revenue threshold is at this level, we should make all attempts to undertake programmes and projects that are within our means. In the private sector, debt is always cheaper than equity, but in the public sector, it is the reverse. Debt is more The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

expensive than locally generated revenue. So, if you look at the Report presented by the Liaison Committee under paragraph 8, it reads: “A review of the implementation of medium-term management strategies since the year 2020 revealed that there has been a consistent deviation from the approved debt management strategy in the actual borrowing.” So, that means two things. One, the Treasury mandarins bring documents to this House for the sake of complying with the law. Secondly, they deliberately mislead the House, knowing that they are unlikely to achieve anything, so that they can benefit some local banks and international lenders for their own personal needs. Therefore, the country suffers due to incompetence, ineptitude or basic greed of the people who are in charge at the Department. In the 2023/2024 Financial Year, the actual ratio...

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Hon Melly, the Member of Funyula is making his point. What is out of order?

Hon. Temporary Speaker, when Hon. Melly was speaking, I did not interrupt him. He said very many things and I did not add…

Order!

Hon. Temporary Speaker, the Member for Funyula is completely out of order in this sense. It is a fact that this paper has been prepared adequately. We gave timelines that the National Treasury was supposed to adhere to what we said as the Liaison Committee on the Medium-Term Debt Strategy. The Member is saying they are lies and that it is for the sake of the others interests, yet we are waiting to see if the National Treasury will not comply with it.

What is out of order?

He is out of order because he is giving false lies that this paper is for the sake of the donors.

He is debating. He will debate using his own words, not yours. Go ahead.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, Hon. Melly says he sits in the Liaison Committee. Its Report is here. What I am reading here is what they have actually commented in paragraph 8. It is not my own making; they are not my words. Unless he signed a Report he did not read. How is that possible? The Report says that our debt ratio to GDP is already at 63 per cent, yet the Public Finance Management (PFM) Act says 55 plus 5. So, are we dealing with an illegality here? Is the Committee responsible sanitising an illegality here? Are they just coming to Parliament for the sake of sanitising an illegality? The Report gives a very dim view of the prospects in future. It says that the primary drive of the rising debt stock is the persistent fiscal deficit influenced by significant infrastructural development needs, increasing debt reservicing costs and exchange rate fluctuations. I expected that the Committee will go out of its way to sensitise, discuss and explain to us how they...

On a point of information.

The Member for Uasin Gishu wants to inform you. Do you want to be informed?

No, I do not want to be informed, unless she is on a point of order. The power to be informed under the Standing Orders lies with me to accept to be informed or not. If it is a point of order, then it is in order but not a point of information.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

We will allow the Honourable Member for Funyula to finish his speech.

Yes, they will have to. I hope you will account for the interruptions so that I am given my minutes to conclude. The issue of public debt in this country has been at the forefront of discussions for long. The truth of the matter is that public debt in this country is deliberately understated. That is the truth of the matter. If you go to any office and ask to be given a schedule or a register of public debt, nobody will be knowing it. I sit in the Public Accounts Committee and some of the things that come up will shock you. I am trying to drive this point so that probably, on this document we can have a paradigm shift on how to develop to make it a document that can guide discussions in this House. In the current 2025/2026 Financial Year, the deficit is about Ksh831 billion. Again, how would you have a deficit which is almost a third of our budget? What kind of budget is this? Domestic borrowing will be about Ksh540 billion while external borrowing will be Ksh290 billion. Yet again, when you look at this, they are not so sure that they are going to borrow that money because many a times they have failed to achieve that balance and have ended up borrowing domestically. As we talk about this, we are forgetting the issue of pending bills. It is extremely unfair and undeserving to the people of Kenya to fail to account for pending bills as part of public debt. It is a public debt, yet the Strategy Paper here has no mention at all about pending bills. Are we being sincere and truthful to the people of Kenya? We are not. This Kenya Kwanza Government is not being truthful. We could liquidate the debt we have using our own resources. We hold Harambee to raise funds to do irrelevant things but we cannot do the same to meet our development needs. Are we sincere to the people of Kenya, or is it just a rip-off to make sure that the people of Kenya remain in abject poverty with no development at all? With those few remarks, I support because it is required by the law, but with reservations.

er (Hon. David Ochieng’): Next is the Member for Endebess Constituency. Hon. Baya, you just walked in. Some Members have been queuing since we started.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I stand to support the Liaison Committee’s consideration of the 2025 MTDS Paper as laid in the House. The Report talks about external borrowing being relatively cheaper than domestic borrowing. This is due to the share of concessional loans from multilateral lenders such as the World Bank and our development partners. Indeed, 54 per cent of the total external debt portfolio is concessional, and it significantly contributes to the sustainability of Kenya's debt. My colleague, Hon. Oundo, has misled the public by saying that you can conduct Harambee to pay external debts. I do not think there is a country that has ever conducted Harambee to pay an external debt. I presume that he was just joking. He must have said it on a light touch. There is no country in the world that does not borrow. Japan, USA and any of the developed countries borrow. All countries borrow and have debts. We noted that external commercial borrowing is relatively expensive compared to concessional loans, as I have already mentioned. Therefore, various measures, including paying off some of the most expensive loans and exploring cheaper debt instruments such as green bonds, are being considered in this Report. Following the review of the 2025 MTDS, the Committee observed that the Government will borrow Ksh831.1 billion, which is equivalent to the fiscal deficit in the 2025 BPS. This amount will be sourced from both domestic and external sources at a ratio of 65:35 respectively. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

To mitigate the growing risk of domestic debt interest payments and reduce the tendency of the Government borrowing funds held by public entities, the Ministry of National Treasury and Planning should deploy the TSA for all MDS

Next is the Member for Kitui Rural, Hon. Mboni.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. At the onset, I support the Report. This is the second of such Report since the start of the 13th Parliament. It is very good that we know our debt stock. Debt is not a bad thing. There is no country that has ever developed without borrowing. Developed countries are more indebted than developing ones. For example, Japan has the highest debt to GDP ratio at present value estimated at 256 per cent while the United States of America is at around 123 per cent. Most of the developing countries are below 100 per cent but they ‘cry’ more because they either take expensive loans or they do not utilise the loans effectively. Most of the loans are wasted and, therefore, repaying becomes a problem. Going forward, our loans should go into programmes with high economic and social returns so that it is easier for us to pay as a result of the impact they bring to this country. One thing that is worrying in this Report is the Kenya loans mix. The domestic loan portfolio is 65 per cent while the external loan portfolio is 35 per cent. Domestic loans have their own effects. Firstly, the interest rates are very high. Secondly, their repayment period is very short. It is about five years. More critical is the fact that the Government has cropped out private sector borrowing. Last year, the Treasury Bond rates were around 20 per cent. As a result, the banks increased their interest rates because it was less risky for banks to loan the Government than the private sector. Government borrowing increases the commercial bank interest rates thus making it difficult for actors in the private sector to borrow and invest or expand or establish start-up businesses. This has a serious effect on economic growth. We need to move to more concessional loans, which have low interest rates and longer repayment periods. This is to ensure that we benefit from the loan and desist from borrowing. How did we find ourselves in this situation? The first problem is the way we prepare our budgets. We always have a budget with high deficits. The moment this House approves a budget with deficits, it is already approving borrowing because the deficit has to be financed. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Currently, the deficit in our national budget stands at around 17 per cent. We need to strive to balance our budgets so that we reduce borrowing. We also need to reduce the use of Article 223 of the Constitution, a provision in financial management that is being misused by mandarins at the National Treasury. We spend between Ksh100 billion and 200 billion annually using this Article. That is money which is not budgeted for, and when spent, it immediately affects the projects that are budgeted for. It is a pity that some withdrawals for debt payments are made manually. Last week, we met with the Controller of Budget, who said that she approves 115 debt payments every week. Some of them are done manually, and she has no time to go through all those payments. Therefore, the recommendation that the National Treasury automates the withdrawal of debts money is important to increase accountability in debt repayment. Hon. Temporary Speaker, the other thing is fiscal consolidation. This is a song that we have sung for too many years, and it is high time that we strictly followed fiscal…

Please add him 30 seconds.

It is high time we strictly implemented fiscal consolidation, and reduce unnecessary expenditures relating to foreign travel and hospitality expenses. We should reign in on the general wastage that we have been financing through the budget. Concerning the proposal on introducing TSAs for Ministries, Departments and Agencies (MDAs), I was reading somewhere last week that the money we collect for Affordable Housing has earned Ksh2 billion from Government securities. If we had employed the use of TSA, the Government would have money to spend without having to borrow and pay interest. We need to implement this strategy. The National Treasury should not be telling us when they are going to implement it. The implementation should have been done like yesterday rather than today.

Thank you. Let us have the Member for Kilifi North.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for giving me an opportunity to contribute to the Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy Paper. It is high time that this country implemented the TSA strategy. That way, we will ensure that Government money remains Government money, and the Government will not have to pay interest on it. There are times when the Government borrows its own money. Government funds are scattered in different commercial banks, and the Government goes there asking for loans. The commercial banks accumulate Government money, and lends it to Government entities at commercial interest rates. That is how the Government incurs and accumulates public debt. We must, therefore, implement the TSA strategy to evade the situation we are currently in with commercial banks. Currently, the domestic debt is bigger than the external debt. Commercial banks are making hefty profits of up to Ksh14 billion annually. You ask yourself where these profits come from when Kenyans do not have money, given the little borrowing that happens in this country. It is actually the Government which gives commercial banks the hefty profits they declare annually. Therefore, the TSA strategy must be adopted and maintained. The other day, I listened to Hon. John Mbadi on Spice FM during the Situation Room programme discussing the Kenyan debt. He indicated that we are already indebted to the Eurobond until 2034 because of how we are managing our debt.

It is 2036. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Yes, 2036. So, we dig a new hole to cover an existing hole. We then dig a bigger hole to cover an even deeper hole. We have many incomplete projects in this country that we cannot claim proprietorship of yet we have borrowed. According to a Citizen TV news broadcast aired yesterday, the country has borrowed Ksh6 billion. The project was halfway done; it was never completed. To complete it, we have to borrow again. So, the cost of the project increases by up to about 30 per cent because of the delay. We have to borrow so as to complete a project that should have been completed three years earlier. What does that mean? It means that we cannot manage our debt because of delay on projects or because of being ambitious on certain projects. Therefore, managing Kenya's debt will be a challenge. Many projects that were started all over the country during the previous regimes have been abandoned. They are too many. The Government is now looking for money to complete them. The final cost of a stalled project is usually different from the cost of the project when its execution started three to five years earlier. It means that the Government incurs more costs. A project that was initially supposed to be completed in one year at a cost of Ksh6 billion ends up costing Ksh12 billion three years later – double the initial cost. Therefore, we must start projects that we can complete. Otherwise, we will continue to borrow more to complete projects that have stalled. The third thing is that we borrow from commercial banks, like the Exim Bank and others, instead of taking multilateral or bilateral loans. We have been hit very hard by commercial loans. Multilateral and bilateral loans are cheaper. That is what we should be going for. However, people in Government have preferred to go for commercial loans despite the fact that they are very expensive. The longer the repayment period, the more the interest they accrue and they become very difficult to manage. I do not know when we will get hold of this problem. Lastly, in the previous regime, there were institutions that were used to borrow money. You find a parastatal with a Ksh100 million debt that was incurred on their behalf yet they do not know how and why the money was borrowed, and the money never got to them. How shall we manage such a situation? Therefore, as we consolidate all these things, as Parliament, we need to put our foot down and say that every coin that is borrowed must be sanctioned by this House. If this House starts sanctioning the loans we are going to borrow, we will get hold of our loan portfolios and manage the debt of this country. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Well said. Hon. Irene Mayaka.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I also stand to support this Report. First of all, it is within the time that we need to discuss it. I have looked at the Strategy Paper that has been presented by the Committee, and some of the recommendations they have made. For example, the fact that we now want to automate the system and integrate it to Integrated Financial Management Information System (IFMIS) is something that is way beyond time. It should have happened sooner than later. All the same, it is still a very good idea. The only caution I want to throw in is that when implementing the integration policy, let us not immediately grandfather the current manual system until we are certain that the new one actually works. If we integrate the two systems but the product fails to work, we will be thrown back to square one. I have also seen another recommendation to the effect that as we implement the proposed changes, there must be close scrutiny and monitoring with Parliament getting quarterly reports. This is also very important because that is the only way we can tell whether the new strategy is working or not. We will know whether or not the new ratios that have been suggested – Increasing the domestic borrowing ratio to the external borrowing ratio – are actually working. I am saying this because one of the Committee’s recommendations is on having a close look at the proceeds of the infrastructure bond. As a House, we need to be The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

furnished with reports on how our infrastructure bond is doing in the local market. We need to know the extent to which local investors are borrowing so that we know whether or not this is working. I have also seen a recommendation on introduction of alternative financial measures like Linked Bonds, Debt Swaps, Diaspora Bonds, and Environmental, Social and Governance (ESG) Bonds. That is also good. Even as we suggest this, we must find out whether this strategy has worked in other economies. If we are borrowing such practice, we must benchmark in countries where this strategy has succeeded. Usually, financial prudence and success are not unique to different environments. You can borrow ideas from where they have worked. There is a very common saying that goes “There is nothing wrong with copying a good cat.” It is very much in order. I want to speak about the monitoring aspect of the Ministry of the National Treasury and Economic Planning. It has also been suggested that as at 31st May 2025, there must be review to find out whether or not debt utilisation and debt procurement processes are working. This is good. However, we must be very careful not to overwhelm one department with too much work at the same time. These are very good measures but we must also be cognizant of their effects on daily operations of the involved institutions. Finally, having strict fiscal discipline within our systems and adopting appropriate consolidated measures is the only way of ensuring that this strategy works. Having said that, I beg to support this Report. Thank you.

Next is the Member for Mbeere North.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I rise to support the Report. For quite some time, public liability has not been managed well in this country, be it domestic or international liabilities. That is probably why we have been in serious problems of borrowing repeatedly until we have an accumulative debt of about Ksh11 trillion. The Committee forwarded promising recommendations to this House. We are looking at fiscal consolidation to ensure that we move our debt to GDP ratio from where we are, over 65 per cent. We want to be within the recommended percentage of present value terms that are at 55 per cent, with a plus or minus five per cent by 2028. For this to be achieved, the Ministry of National Treasury and Economic Planning, the Central Bank of Kenya (CBK), and the Controller of Budget, must do several things. The Report proposes automating debt service payment from the Consolidated Fund. That is one of the key recommendations. This will enable us to monitor any withdrawals made. There have been many rumours on social media and the mainstream media that a big amount of money has been withdrawn from the Consolidated Fund manually. We are not sure whether this money has been utilised properly. We are talking about large amounts of money. With such kind of recommendations, we will get rid of many speculations that may come as a result of the naysayers...

What is out of order, Hon. Oundo?

Hon. Temporary Speaker, my good friend, Hon. Ruku, has talked about rumours. I do not know whether ‘rumours’ is parliamentary language. Parliament is a House of records and not a House of rumours. Can he rephrase instead of using the word ‘rumours’. Thank you.

Proceed, Hon. Ruku.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, one of the daily newspapers said that there were manual withdrawals amounting to about Ksh1.3 trillion. That information is not confirmed. Those are just street rumours out there. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Automation of debt service payment will go a long way in ensuring that rumours do not find their way to the media because debt payments will not only be verifiable but will also be open source of information. One can get information if they request for it.

This Report also talks about ensuring that the TSA strategy is implemented so that the Government may not continue borrowing its own money from financial institutions. As Members may have noted, if there is a sector which makes big profits annually, it is the banking sector. Every bank fights very hard for Government institutions to open accounts with them. We have to be serious. We have seen many county governments opening thirty to forty accounts. Some of them have hundred accounts in different banks so that banks can continue making money out of public resources.

You have 30 seconds.

The consolidated TSAs will go a long way in ensuring that we manage our public resources in the most prudent way.

Finally, people who have been managing public resources in a bad way should step aside. We have many reports in Parliament on mismanagement of public resources. If we have reports about public resources being mismanaged, the persons involved must step aside pending investigations, as we used to see during the administration of the late President Kibaki.

With those remarks, I support this Report.

Hon. Members, there being no further interest in the Motion, I call upon the Mover to reply. Proceed, Hon. Gladys Boss.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. Before I reply, I would like to thank all the Members who have contributed very enthusiastically to this Motion. This shows great interest. This is the first time in Kenya that the Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy has been brought to Parliament. Prior to 2021, this was not the case. We have made progress as a country. As legislators, we are interested in the levels of our debt, how it is being managed and utilised. We are also interested to know how much is required at any particular stage during consideration of BPS, even as we prepare to have the Supplementary Appropriation Bill. Hon. Temporary Speaker, some Members thought that a gloomy picture has been painted. Yesterday, as I listened the Cabinet Secretary for the National Treasury and Economic Planning, Hon. John Mbadi, I felt positive and hopeful as a Kenyan because our country is moving in the right direction. If you see the way he explained how he has managed debt from the time he got into office up to now, you can see that there are positive achievements. We must commend him because he took his time to explain to us the situation. He also admitted that the debt level is not at the prescribed 55 per cent. He said that it is at 63 per cent, but he told us the strategies that they have put in place to ensure that it drops back to 55 per cent. They have a very clear roadmap to ensure that by 2028, the debt level drops back to 55 per cent. I would have been worried if we had a situation like it used to be before, where we did not even know the level we were at in terms of the national debt. I remember proudly that when I was the Chairperson of the Committee on Delegated Legislation, we set the debt ceiling at 55 per cent. We have since made progress, as it has been reported. We must commend the National Treasury for being honest about it and telling us that they have clear measures in place to reduce it. They have also agreed to bring to Parliament updates at specific intervals we have agreed upon. We have dates in July and May that they have confirmed to us. They also agreed to discuss measures they can put in place to ensure that there is better governance, accountability and transparency in the way we utilise not only our own resources from revenue but also those that come from debts. That is why they gave us very good measures. Firstly, they are adopting the STA strategy, which is progress. That is why we are asking this House to allow them up to 2028. They told us that once the STA system becomes The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

operational, we will be operating on an accrual system and a zero-based budgeting, which will ensure that all our debts go through the digital system. That way, transactions will be tightened to ensure that we do not have any more losses of monies that we borrowed. They also gave an undertaking to report to Parliament within 15 days of implementation to give us a register of all debts, showing how much the debts are, how much money they will be using to service the debts, and how much of the debts were used on which project. As Parliament, this will give us an opportunity to interrogate them and see where there is no good use of borrowed money, so that the same does not happen the following year. They also gave us the undertaking that they will not make any variation of the Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy without coming to Parliament first. These assurances paint a much more positive outlook than we have ever had. In the last Parliament, we were not in this position. It was a back and forth all the time with the National Treasury. I remember when Hon. Ukur Yatani was the Cabinet Secretary for the National Treasury, my Committee had altercations with him because he could not disclose how much was owed. He finally said he would come back and bring the information to us in 14 days’ time but he never brought the information. Right now, there is progress. There was a full disclosure of what our revenues and deficit are, and that they are borrowing to cover the deficit. They have also done something that will make things improve. First of all, they have not negotiated the eighth review with the International Monetary Fund (IMF). That might change. We might have some more concessional loans that will bring down our repayment levels. They also said there is still an opportunity to increase our revenue. They have given a much underestimated revenue projection because they said they do not want to make the mistake that was made last time, where we had a very ambitious revenue projection that was not met and then we got stuck. Hon. Temporary Speaker, as I said, I feel much more confident about the fiscal health of our economy. With those remarks, I beg to reply.

Thank you. Hon. Members, for obvious reason, the decision on this Motion will be made when it next appears on the Order Paper.

Next Order!

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Hon. Mayaka, what is out of order?

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I rise pursuant to Standing Order 35. I see that next in the Order Paper is a crucial Motion that needs to be discussed with a majority of Members in the House. However, we do not have sufficient quorum.

Under Standing Order 35, it does not matter what is to be discussed next. It is on its own. I order the Quorum Bell to be rung for five minutes.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Members, the time now is 7.02 p.m. There being no quorum, the House stands adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, 6th March 2025, at 2.30 p.m.

The House rose at 7.02 p.m.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.