Hon. Senators, could we confirm if we have a quorum?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have 20 hon. Senators present in the Senate. We have a quorum

Let us proceed.

Hon, Senators, I have a communication on the subject of the National Prayer Breakfast. Hon. Senators, as you may be aware, Parliament, through the Parliamentary Prayer Group, has been hosting an annual National Prayer Breakfast. This year’s National Prayer Breakfast is scheduled to take place on Thursday, 20th June, 2013, at the Safari Park Hotel beginning at 8.00 a.m. His Excellency the President, hon. Uhuru Kenyatta, C.G.H., is expected to be the guest speaker. This is a function for all Senators, Members of the National Assembly, the private and public service sectors, governors and county assembly speakers. The event is funded by hon. Members through voluntary contributions. I, therefore, appeal to those willing to make their contributions to do so by signing their names on forms to be made available in due course. In addition, hon. Senators who may wish to join the inter-denominational Parliamentary Prayer Group are invited to attend the group’s weekly prayer meetings held every Wednesday, beginning at 7.00 a.m. in the Committee Room on the Second The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Hon. Senators, we will skip Order No.8, Committee of the Whole scheduled for today. It will appear on the Order Paper tomorrow afternoon because the Committee is still working on some proposals. Maybe just to take advantage of the opportunity, hon. Senators, tomorrow in the Committee of the Whole, we will be having the Division of Revenue Bill. You will be voting as delegations, and you know the importance of that. It is important that all the delegations are present or, in their absence, written permission by the head of delegation is required.

Next Order.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I beg to move the following Motion:- THAT, aware that various counties in Kenya are endowed with natural resources such as oil deposits, wildlife, minerals among others; appreciating that their capability to exploit and utilize the resources varies according to economic and technical potential; cognizant of the fact that under the devolved system of government, the county’s role in the creation of national revenue is critical; concerned that there may be no direct and proportional share on the basis of the revenue that a county is able to generate since equitable sharing of revenue raised will be done by the national government; affirming the need for direct benefit from the proceeds of the said natural resources to the local communities, especially in marginalized counties; aware that imposition of tax by national or county government can only be by way of legislation and that only the national government can impose tax; the Senate urges the government to take immediate steps to initiate legislation, pursuant to Article 209 (2) of the Constitution, to require investors to pay at least 20 per cent of their The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I stand to second this Motion by Sen. (Dr.) Zani regarding a very important sector, that of natural resources in Kenya. Our country is endowed with great potential in natural resources. If we, as a country, really get to understand how much we can benefit from our natural resources, really this will not only improve our livelihoods, but also greatly, as it has done in the past, contribute to our economic performance. Many a time we have had investors coming to our country, negotiations are done at national level, but controversies rage in counties. I am sure last year many of us noted what happened in Kwale County over the issue of mining. This was because there are no clear positions in terms of what communities are expected to benefit from such resources. More importantly, under the new constitutional dispensation, where we have gone into devolved government units, we need to be very clear on how best our counties are expected to benefit. Some of our counties are not able to generate sufficient income locally. The fact that such a Motion comes in to force, from which we expect the relevant line Ministries to pick up appropriate policies or legislations, then we will be in a better position to locally finance some of our development programmes. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, many a times a number of investors who set up companies around say that under the Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR), they will support community initiatives. We have witnessed that let alone taking up a little on their shoulders, they have evaded community responsibilities. At their expense, we continue to suffer so much environmental damages. Passing such a Motion will be able to help us out of some of these issues. Let me talk about two issues on minerals and petroleum. I will pick the cement industry as an example. Besides the East African Portland Cement (EAPC) where the Government of Kenyans has about 52 per cent shareholding, all other companies such as Athi River Mining Limited (ARML) and Mombasa Cement Limited (MCL) are purely owned by private investors. What they contribute to counties or individual communities does not make a difference. If you look at the issue of wildlife conservation, private consevercies have come up. However, there are no clear guidelines on how best they should reciprocate their earnings in terms of supporting communities. It is indicative that we have clear gaps in terms of finding out how much they should contribute. But it is imperative that, we, as a country, ask these investors to pay royalties. Whichever way we manage, I am sure the relevant Ministries can be guided. But we must agree on a common approach that we ask them to pay royalties, including the latest discovery of oil in Northern Turkana, one of the disadvantaged regions. We know the latest International The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Hon. Senators, I know that I am not supposed to give my views as I sit here, but I dare say that sometimes the hon. Speaker is disadvantaged because I also come from a County and I will not be able to debate this very important Motion. We have three hours to debate the Motion. I wish that the Motion had also included water as a natural resource, so that those counties that are offering this facility to Nairobi and other cities are able to collect taxes and royalties for that purpose.

You are out of order!

Well, you cannot tell me am out of order. You are completely out of order!

So, hon. Senators, the Floor is now open for debate. Sen. Kajwang proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. First, I want to thank Sen. (Dr.) Zani for this timely Motion. I do not know her background. But it seems like she has a background in mining. The Motion is quite lengthy and convoluted, sometimes complex, but she has captured what we have been watching in every county Mr. Deputy Speakers, counties are now owners of trust land. The trust land that is in Homa Bay County, for example, now belongs to the Homa Bay County Government. In that trust land, maybe, is the area in which some gold may be found. In the neighbouring Migori County, for example, there is a lot of gold. Am not so sure what is in Homa Bay County yet, but from what I hear, there is a lot of potential in geo-thermal energy and cement manufacture. Counties are already looking at their natural resources and saying: ‘This is our wealth.” It is important that we do not cheat each other. The national Government, of course, has been given the power that anything below the soil belongs to them, especially if it is oil or coal. But let us not forget that the areas where this is found is in the counties. Every county feels, and justifiably so, that this is their resources. If this issue is not addressed as early as we are trying to address it, it may very well bring conflict. Such an issue has brought conflict in Nigeria in the Ogoni State. They tried to take the army there and they were defeated until the national Government agreed The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Sen. (Dr.) Machage.

Asante, Bw. Naibu Spika, kwa kunipa nafasi hii. Hoja hii ambayo imependekezwa siku ya leo na Sen. (Dr.) Zani ni ya manufaa makuu kwa nchi yetu. Tuna bahati kwamba katika utawala wa mkoloni mzungu hakuweza kuyaondoa madini yote kutoka Kenya. Tunashukuru Mwenyezi Mungu kwa jambo hili. Nchi nyingi za Bara la Afrika ziliporwa na wakoloni. Nchi yetu bado iko na rasilimali ya kila aina ardhini. Pia tuna rasilimali ya udongo mwema ambao hutumika na kampuni kubwa ambazo zinajihusisha na ukuzaji wa mimea kama vile tumbaku, miwa, mpunga na kadhalika. Hivi karibuni tumeona kwamba kuna wawekezaji wengine ambao ni wadanganyifu sana; mabepari ambao hawana shukrani. Wanachukua kila kitu ambacho wamekipata na kupeleka kwao. Mifano mingi ipo. Kwa mfano, ukuzaji wa tumbaku katika Mkoa Nyanza na hasa Kaunti ya Migori. Tumepata kampuni ambazo zinageuza majina kila baada ya miaka mitatu. Kampuni imeitwa British American Tobacco (BAT), baadaye Alliance One, na kadhalika kusudi wasilipe ushuru kwa Serikali. Tuna wawekezaji wengine kama Master Mind Tobacco (MMT) ambo huja na kudanganya watu na kuchukua mali na kuenda kuuza mahali peningine bila kurudisha mkono kwa wale ambo wamekuza zao hili wala hata kusaidia kujenga shule au zahanati. Bw. Naibu Spika, sheria kama hii ikiundwa, kwamba lazima asilimia kiasi fulani itengewe serikali za mashinani, ni vizuri sana. Sen. (Dr.) Zani amependekeza asilimia 20, itakuwa jambo bora, la heri na hekima kwamba tupate hizi pesa zikirudishwa mashinani kukuza uchumi wa sehemu hizo ili kuwe na shule, zahanati na viwanja vya michezo vizuri na pia kuwe na miradi mingi ya kuwasaidia akina mama. Bw. Naibu Spika, katika Kaunti ya Migori tumebahatika kuwa na dhahabu nyingi. Sen. Kajwang amesema tumepata wezi waliojificha kwenye mipango ambayo haiyeleweki. Wawekezaji wengine wanapata leseni kwamba wanakuja kuchunguza kilicho ndani na kuanza kuchukua mali hiyo miaka nenda, miaka rudi, bila kulipa ushuru kwa Serikali. Wanafanya hivyo kwa sababu ya rushwa. Hawa ni watu katika Serikali ambao wanahongwa ili wasiangaze macho na kuona uovu unaoendelezwa na watu hawa. Hawa ni wanafiki wanaohujumu uchumi wetu. Hili liwe jambo la kusahaulika kabisa kwa sababu miaka mingi imepita ambapo wananchi wameibiwa na wawekezaji. Wawekezaji hawa wamekuja nchini wakijifanya wamekuja kuchunguza na wanachukua mali na kupotea nayo. Hatutakubali jambo kama hili tena. Serikali za mashinani zinafaa ziwe angalifu sana. Ni lazima tuangaze sheria zote ambazo zimeandaliwa ili tuhakikishe kwamba rasilimali yote ambayo imeondolewa mahali fulani, jamii husika zimepata kiwango kidogo cha uchumi kusudi wakuze maslahi yao. Bw. Naibu Spika, hii ni sheria ambayo sidhani kama kuna Seneta ambaye ataipinga ingiwa tunajua ya kwamba si sehemu zote za Kenya ambazo zimebahatika kuwa na vitega uchumi kama hivi vya madini na kadhalika. Lakini kuna sehemu zingine ambazo zimebahatika kuwa na mbuga za wanyama au kuwa na sera nzuri za utamaduni wao wa kuanzisha nyimbo na michezo mizuri ambayo pia ni rasilimali ambazo zinatumika katika hoteli na kadhalika. Mambo ya angazwe na njia wakfu itafutwe ya kuona ya kwamba tunaweza kutega uchumi huu kwa namna gani. Tunapofanya hivi, tujihadhari kwa sababu tunaweze kuwafukuza wawekezaji ikiwa kodi itawekwa kiwango cha juu. Serikali tayari ina kodi ya mapato ambayo inafukuza wawekezaji. Sisi tusidai The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Sen. Musila!

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I stand here, first and foremost to support this Motion. In supporting the Motion, I want to say from the outset that the guiding principle in mineral exploitation in this country should be for the benefit of the local people. Having said that, there are many areas that Kenyans should benefit from the exploitation of minerals. I lament that while Kenya has many minerals, we have not been able to exploit them. For many years we have been told about the gold mines in Western Kenya. We have also been told about iron ore in various places. We now have coal in my county. Lately, there is oil in Turkana County. With the exception of the oil that is in full gear for exploitation, we do not appear to have put a lot of effort in exploiting minerals in order that our economy can grow and create employment. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to focus a little bit on coal, which my friend, the hon. Senator for Homa Bay County alluded to. First and foremost, when coal was found in that great County of Kitui, the issue of investment to exploit or to mine that mineral became a major concern because heavy investment is required to exploit it. It is many kilometres underground and involves making tunnels inside using a lot of equipment. More than that, what is the benefit to the community? There is bound to be misplacement of the community. These are issues that must be addressed even before we talk about exploitation. I would like to suggest that for any investor coming to exploit a mineral in a certain area, the Government must take hold of some shares so that the community can have some ownership. I want to appreciate that communities may not have money to invest in these companies, but the Government should get those shares and keep them in trust for the community so that as it is organized, the shares can be transferred to them. It is very important for the communities to have commitment of ownership if conflicts are going to be minimized. The other issue is the issue that was referred to by Sen. Kajwang, of removing minerals from an area to take them to another area. That is one of the conditions that we have put in place in Kitui. We have said that in the exploitation of coal, the raw materials must be used in the area in order that employment is created and locals can benefit directly. We have made that a condition and I hope that any law that the Motion envisages should contain the same Community ownership of any company exploiting a mineral in the area is very important. That way, the community feel they own the process, they share the profits, leave alone the income from the royalties, but they should share the profits directly. So, I am proposing that we go further than the royalties and go into ownership. We should ensure that the raw materials mined in an area are utilized in the area to create employment. I am looking at Turkana, for example. We should not take away all the crude oil from Turkana and ship it to Mombasa for refining. We should refine it at source so that people can get employment. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Sen. Munyes!

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to support this Motion. I want to start by saying that this Motion comes at a time when Kenya is aggressively undertaking exploration of minerals around the country. Kenya is surely endowed with so much resource as the Mover said. These include water, oil, wildlife and the rare minerals. There are some which we have not been discovered and this aggressive exploration will show us some rare minerals. In some areas we have wind and sand which can also be resources for us. I want to talk about Turkana. As we talk about oil, Turkana is also endowed with water resources. A recent discovery by satellite has shown that Turkana has water potential that is way out bigger than the whole of East Africa put together. The amount of water in Turkana is so much compared to all the regions. I do not know how it was discovered by the satellite. This is something that I want the county to take cognizance of and exploit. As we speak about oil exploration, there is a risk. If a proper environmental assessment is not done to ensure we do not spoil the aquifers then we can stay without the oil and keep our water. We can exploit the oil and destroy the water aquifers in Turkana. The oil company must take that seriously and ensure we do not destroy the water aquifers. It has happened in Sudan and many other countries where it has resulted in bigger problems. River Turkwel flows into Lake Turkana. Trukana County, has three times more potential than Trans Nzoia County when you consider such a water resource. Therefore, the challenge for us is to take serious exploitation of resources. We have not done much in studies. So, we need in-depth studies to exploit more resources. Twenty per cent as suggested by the Mover is a good figure because we need that kind of money to stimulate growth in those areas. The money will help build schools and dispensaries to assist the host community that is helping to exploit the mineral and which provided land for that particular investment. I want to say that there is much in this country and these resources are mainly in the Arid and Semi-Arid Lands (ASALs), the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me this opportunity to support this Motion. This Motion comes at the right time when the county governments are looking at creative ways of increasing economic performance. Therefore, looking at the natural resources for them to exploit and increase their revenue is the right thing to do. Let me talk about Taita Taveta County. In this county 62 per cent of the land mass is occupied by wild animals and Kenya Wildlife Society (KWS). About four per cent are the hills that produce water which goes to Mombasa City. We have precious stones. About 70 per cent of precious stones found in the country are in Taita Taveta. We have tiomin, sand and others. However, Taita Taveta is rated as one of the poorest areas. This Motion comes at the right time. With such an endowment of natural resources, we need to give county governments an incentive and capacity for them to exploit them so that they can increase their earnings. We need to look at commercializing mining in Kenya. There have been some explorations in Taita Taveta for the last 50 years, but it is done in an awkward and manual way that does not benefit the country and the county. So, we should give incentives to the counties. I am also suggesting that we should give 5 per cent to the communities. When the land belongs to the community and there is any exploration taking place, we know the companies pay corporate tax to the national government, but there is no direct benefit to the communities where they do exploration. Therefore, I would suggest that apart from 20 per cent which goes to the county, the community or the private land owner should get 5 per cent. We should also be aware that while we talk about natural resources, we have a pending Bill which should be debated by the National Assembly. We also have the Wildlife Bill which is also pending to be debated by the National Assembly. We, as the Senate, want to take care of the interest of the counties by making sure that the natural resources, whether it is wind, sand or any other, if mined, one must pay 25 per cent; 20 per cent to the county and 5 per cent to the communities. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Asante sana, Bw. Naibu Spika. Kwanza ningependa kutoa shukrani kwa Sen.(Dr) Zani kwa kuleta Hoja hii. Maoni yangu ni kwamba Sen. (Dr) Zani alikuwa anafikiria juu ya Kaunti ya Kwale katika mawazo yake. Hii Hoja ni juu ya Kaunti ya Kwale. Lakini kwa sababu yeye ni Seneta mteule mawazo yake ni ya kitaifa. Mimi nitazungumza juu ya Kaunti ya Kwale. Hii ni moja kati ya kaunti maskini sana. Hata hivyo, ni moja kati ya kaunti zenye utajiri mwingi wa rasilmali. Tuna fuo zakuvutia sana. Mwezi wa Desemba, watu wengi kutoka bara huja kuogelea katika bahari yetu. Lakini watu wetu hawafaidiki hata kidogo na bahari na fuo zake. Bw. Naibu Spika, Kaunti ya Kwale inasambaza zaidi ya asilimia 30 ya maji yanayotumiwa katika Kaunti ya Mombasa. Maji haya hutoka Tiwi na Marere springs. Watu wa Mombasa ndio wanaopata maji mazuri lakini sisi watu wa Kwale tunatakikana tuwe wachafu. Hatufaidiki na maji haya. Bw. Naibu Spika, tuna mbuga za wanyama. Mfano mzuri, ni Shimba Hills National Park ambayo ni kilomita 30 kutoka Leisure Lodge. Katika mbuga hii kuna wanyama wengi kama vile ndovu, nyati na simba. Lakini watu wa Kwale hawapati chochote kutokana na shughuli za kitalii katika mbuga hiyo. Hata kaunti haipati ndururu. Sisi watu wa Kwale tumebarikiwa na madini. Na hii siyo siri. Hatukuomba kuwa Wakwale ni Mwenyezi Mungu aliyetuweka katika kaunti hii. Tuna madini kama vile titanium, dhahabu, rubi na kadhalika. Kwanza tuzungumzie hili swala la madini maanake The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

I rise to support this Motion and to congratulate Sen. Zani for bringing it to this House. As my colleague Boy Juma Boy has said very eloquently, our responsibility in the Constitution is to look after the affairs of the counties. There is nothing better in looking after the counties and ensuring that the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I congratulate Sen. (Dr.) Zani and I am proud that she belongs to the same side as I. She has brought such a wonderful national Motion.

Order, Senator Wetangula!

A Senator on my side has brought a national Motion. That is why I am proud of her.

That is better.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will encourage Dr. Zani, towards the end, to get a colleague – I am not in the habit of amending Motions – to amend the Motion so that the legislation is not left to the Government because this Senate, in a bipartisan manner can draft the Bill, bring it to this House, pass it and give it effect. If we call upon the Government, you will find that their priorities are different and this will not come at the time we have designed. The essence of urgency will be different. Secondly, I will encourage the distinguished Senator that in drafting the Bill, she should seek expertise or advise from the Commission of Mines, the Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA) and the Treasury on the taxation regimes and programmes and look at the best practices elsewhere. I say this because recently, the President of Zimbabwe attempted to strangle mining companies by insisting that 50 per cent of everything that they do must be given to the state. They then parked up and left. That is what Prof. Anyang’-Nyong’o was talking about when he mentioned the goose and the eggs. We should be conscious about that. That said and done, this is a wonderful Motion. Last year, I was travelling from Nairobi to Ghana and I sat next to a professor, an original medic, who has since studied and has about three PhDs on Mining, Petroleum and general resources. He is an adviser to about 15 governments. He told me – I believe him because he is doing a study on Kenya – that Saudi Arabia has oil reserves to the tune of 970 trillion dollars. He said that there was clear indication from satellite surveys that the mineral resources in Kenya are more than three times that. This is 970 trillion dollars and we are three times that. Saudi Arabia’s is oil while ours are minerals. I believe him and that is why you see a stampede towards Africa. Everywhere in Africa, there is something below where we are standing. If you go to the Indian Ocean, you will find massive minerals down there. There is natural gas and oil, among others. As we take drives along the Mt. Kenya region, look at simple things like water, for instance, the Ndakaini Dam; all the water cascades to Nairobi but the neighbours have nothing. Look at all the water from Kilimanjaro, the Maasai Community has to wait for elephants to dig up and break the pipes so that they can get some water. This is replicated everywhere. It is the same case with the Pokots with the famous Turkwell Gorge. All these people know is that there is a big dam somewhere when they are dying of thirst two kilometers away from the dam. This country, in the last five years, has made tremendous progress in finding and identifying our natural resources. Iron Ore in Taita Taveta is classified as 97 per cent pure more than you can find anywhere else. There is oil in Turkana and expected oil in the Lake Basin and natural gas in the Indian Ocean and rare earth metals that Sen. Juma Boy The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is Sen. Wetangula in order to imply that the people of West Pokot are cattle thieves?

In fact, he referred to you as a cattle rustler. Sen. Wetangula, did you refer to him as a cattle rustler?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is with a light touch. My brother-in-law knows that his community and the Turkana have running issues about who owns more cattle and who does not.

If Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo takes it in that spirit, then that is alright. You can proceed!

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is how he took it, otherwise, I can take my sister away from him. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity. I rise to support the Motion. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, first, like my colleagues, I would like to commend my sister, Sen. (Dr.) Zani, for bringing to this House a Motion that really touches the core of our issues here. This Motion is an ordinary man’s Motion. I want to reiterate what Sen. Wetangula has just said, especially with regard to the ancestral communities where the natural resources mainly belong. These ancestral communities are actually living in abject poverty, yet they are the richest people. They have made other people billionaires either in our country or other countries, who are so-called corporate entities, yet our people continue to live in abject poverty. I have the case of Kisii County where our people mine a mineral called the Kisii Soapstone. Our people in this part of the country The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this very important Motion, that tends to ensure that, at least, a portion of the resources that are close to our communities is left to help that community. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is true that for a long time, in our country, very little has apparently been going back to the communities, where these resources are found. I have been to Mombasa and Shimba Hills and what Sen. Juma Boy said is true. You see a lot of poverty in areas where there are lots of deposits of minerals and exploitation of the same. What I would propose on this particular Motion is that when we talk about natural resources, we should also look at all the resources in other sectors, like rivers that have dams that are producing electricity in places like Tana River and Ukambani. We should ensure that these areas also benefit from the same percentage that is supposed to be left in areas where there are minerals underneath. In my Nakuru County, we have the geothermal resource, which right now is the most eco-friendly in terms of electricity generation in our country. But in the areas where it is based, there is very little that the community around can be proud of. So, my prayer is that this Motion is supported by the Senate and passed, so that those communities can benefit through the various counties that they are based. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to support the Motion.

Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Indeed, I had been waiting the whole morning to say something in the House. I am happy that you have given me the opportunity to ventilate on the Motion. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, first, I wish to thank Sen. Zani for bringing this very useful Motion, which I think supports what we have been talking about all morning, which is, devolution; taking resources to the people or letting the people know that there are resources already within their areas. So, I think that this is a very useful Motion which all of us should ventilate on and actually support. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Is that an amendment?

There is a suggested amendment of setting up a committee and this is what I support because there are many small laws in various places that can be put together. I think we can widen the scope of this committee so that they can put together all these laws and therefore make maximum use of the natural resources; which is the next step of devolution in this country. We should recognize the potential we have and look for ways to make use of the untapped potential existing within our counties. With those few remarks, I support this Motion.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am Sen. Liza Chelule and I stand to congratulate the Mover of this Motion, Dr. Zani. I support it for the following reasons. When she was moving this Motion, it came into my mind that we have resources in our counties especially at the community level. As I am talking today, I hope we have all been enjoying this Keringet Water. It is a natural resource from my area. I am not aware and there is nothing that has been remaining at the community level to address social issues. I am so proud today that if this Motion is successful, the people of Keringet will benefit. I represent students from needy families who have not been able to go to school because of school fees and if the investors were remitting a certain percentage to the community or to the counties, I believe these children could be in school. What I wanted to advice the Mover is not to talk about counties only but to scale down to communities. I suggest that a bigger percentage should remain at the community level. I would not suggest that a bigger percentage go to the county but to the community. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we are aware that there are tree plantations and it is happening in our counties. Many investors engage in tree plantations but nothing remains at the community level. So, if this Motion, which I believe will be successful, goes through, I will be the happiest person because I know there are those resources that will remain at the community level and will indeed address very many social basic needs. Sen. (Prof.) Lesan was talking about carbon credit. It is an exercise that is going on now but the community is not aware and we do not know how they should benefit. The issue of sensitization in this matter again is very important and I would urge that a committee be formed to look into this Motion because everything should have been mentioned. In the first paragraph, Sen. (Dr.) Zani was able to only mention the oil deposits, wildlife and minerals but I think everything was supposed to be included. If there is a committee that is going to sit and look at this Motion critically, everything that is under natural resources will be mentioned. With those few remarks, I beg to support.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion and to also join my colleagues in thanking Sen. (Dr.) Zani for bringing it at this The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of information, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Yes, proceed!

Thank you, Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, for allowing me to inform you for free that under our Constitution, you cannot have retrospective legislation. So, you cannot legislate today and impose compensation for yesterday. It can only be for tomorrow.

I thank my colleague for informing me. But there are two items that he needs to know; compensation for the land where the water sits is as current as anytime in future. If you have not paid for it, you pay at that time. There may be an argument where you are saying that the water has been used and not paid for. As I mention this, there may be need for my colleague, Sen. Wetangula, to start thinking of the water he is getting from West Pokot County. There is water you are getting from the Kapolet Forest. We shall soon be giving you a bill together with the people in Trans Nzoia so that we benefit from the resource that we have. We are taking care of the forest and we shall continue to do so. So, for you to continue enjoying this resource, you have to pay for it. Lastly, we have KWS at Nasolot where we have the largest elephant in Kenya and we keep this elephant for free. The people who are neighbouring us have not benefited from this resource, including employing them as wardens. You do not need to speak English to know how to keep the wild animals that you were born with. As investors come in, they should be cautious and keen to the extent that they take care of the surrounding communities. There are many natural resources that are in West Pokot and if we have investors, it is upon us to make laws that will encourage our people to come and invest in some of those counties which have these natural resources. The communities should benefit by being employed and also through taxation. In conclusion, we also have the ruby and the limestone that for a long time was being carried from Kenya to Uganda without any tax being paid until three years ago when we stopped it. We have the largest deposits of limestone that can carry over five cement factories. It is true that West Pokot is the granary for limestone. In the years to come when Athi River is exhausted, all cement factories will lead to West Pokot County and we are there to welcome them. We will be anticipating that these laws will have been put in place so that the community will not suffer the way they have been suffering. We also have enough sand that we supply to Uasin Gishu County. Eighty per cent of the buildings in Eldoret were built by sand from West Pokot. The same applies to Kitale and Bungoma. As we address this, we want to see how we can benefit because they have been scooping it for free. We have many things that we can benefit from as counties if this Motion is passed and it graduates into a Bill. I support.

Thank you Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want to join my colleagues in congratulating Sen. (Dr.) Zani for bringing this Motion to this House. The timing is The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion. Indeed, this Motion is not only timely but gives the people of this country, specifically the people of each county who are the stakeholders, the opportunity to be participants and to belong to their county by participating in activities that affect their counties. In my county of Kiambu, if I can use that as an example, we have several natural resources which the people of this county have not benefitted from. For a long time, since The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Let me get it right. Are you moving an amendment?

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I am moving an amendment.

Okay, go on.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following amendment to this Motion:- THAT, the Motion be amended by deleting all the words appearing between the word “Senate in the eleventh line and the word “counties” appearing in the fourteenth line and replacing therewith the following words:-“resolves to establish a Select Committee to determine:- (a) the criteria to be used in payment of percentage of royalties by investors in the counties where the exploitation of natural resources occurs; (b) how the revenue accrued will be utilized by the country and counties; and (c) any other relevant issue that may arise in regard to other existing legislation; and the Committee shall comprise the following Senators:- 1. Sen. Peter Mositet 2. Sen. Paul Kimani Wamatangi 3. Sen. Danson Mwazo 4. Sen. Boy Juma Boy 5. Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o 6. Sen. (Prof.) John Lonyangapuo 7. Sen. Catherin Mukite 8. Sen. Liza Chelule 9. Sen. (Dr.) Agnes Zani 10. Sen. Stephen Sang’ The Motion should read as follows:- THAT, aware that various counties in Kenya are endowed with natural resources such as oil deposits, wildlife, minerals, water among others; appreciating that their capability to exploit and utilize the resources varies according to economic and technical potential; cognizant of the fact that under the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I rise to second the Motion. This is one of the best Motions since this House started conducting business. It has been brought by a respectable Senator and that shows that this House is dynamic. This is an amendment that will assist the entire country and in particularly those areas which are endowed with natural resources; found on the surface of the earth like wind, water, limestone or even some soils. There is something that was not mentioned, magadi, a resource which is in my county. As we seek to ensure that our counties are uplifted, we should look at the areas we refer to as marginalised. These are the areas where you find the poorest people of this country living and those are also the areas endowed with minerals. It is good if we can come up with good amendments, like the one that has already been proposed, so that at the end of the day, when they are passed and a Bill is brought to the House, the counties can benefit more. I believe that with such amendments, we will uplift the standards of livelihood in our areas and help counties that are benefiting from the Equalisation Fund to be at par with those that we feel have been favoured in one way or another in the past. I stand here to second and say that this will be the best amendment.

Hon. Senators, the amendment has been moved and seconded. For the purpose of this amendment, we will proceed under The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is removal and insertion and there is a composite amendment. So, are we debating the composite amendment?

That depends on how you understand Standing Order No.52(5).

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir that is how I understand it. My own understanding of it is that we are not looking at it in totality. If you so wish, we can look at the whole amendment as proposed but then we will vote twice under that Standing Order.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, after hearing the level of consultations, I do not think that there is any Senator who has a problem with the amendment. For the Senate to benefit from this positive Motion, it is good that we have a Select Committee that will fast track everything so that we arrive at the proposed Bill as soon as practically possible. Consequently, I support the proposed amendment, the deletion and insertion as you have ably guided us under Standing Order No.52(5). In so doing, I want to move that the House, under Standing Order No.97, adjourns Debate on this Motion taking cognizant of the fact that this is a county Motion. Therefore, any vote on any amendment or the whole Motion would be by delegation. Looking at the Chamber, many delegations are not here. We have a precedence set; a ruling by yourself and fortified by your brother, the Speaker, that, indeed, any Senator has the right and can move that the House adjourns any vote on any Motion or on any The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Senator, are you proceeding under Standing Order 52 or Standing Order No.97?

They more or less mean the same thing.

No, they do not. You better decide on which one you are moving.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, although Standing Order No.97 would apply, Standing Order No. 51(3) is more relevant. Thank you for your guidance.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move under Standing Order No.51(3) that you defer putting the question to the following day on both the amendment and the main Motion

Order, Senator! Proceed and move the Motion that you are moving.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with those few remarks, I beg to move that the Chair exercises its discretion to defer the putting of the question on both the amendment and the main Motion to tomorrow afternoon, at 3.00 p.m.

Order, hon. Members! Seeing that there is nobody else who is interested in debating the issue after the question has been proposed, and proceeding--- There are two issues here and I think that we must understand each other. The debate on the main Motion is still alive and there is still about 20 minutes or so on it. What has happened now is that an amendment to the Motion has been moved and we have not voted for it. Sen. Wetangula has made a request, under Standing Order No.51 (3), that we do not put the question now on the amendment only, and that we do it tomorrow. Since that is discretionary and quite obviously, we do not have the threshold that we need to have, and Senators have shown a lot of interest in this Motion, I will proceed to exercise my discretion under Standing Order No.51 (3). I order that the putting of the question on the amendment shall be tomorrow, not later than 3.00 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Considering that we still have time and knowing that we have an amendment, could we not continue debating the main Motion?

Order! If you look at the Standing Orders, amendments take precedence. It would be meaningless to continue with a debate which is proposed to be amended because then, we will be proceeding on the wrong premise.

Hon. Senators, there being no other business, the House stands adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, 23rd May, 2013, at 2.30 p.m. The Senate rose at 5.15 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.