Hon. Senators, I am informed that we have no quorum. So, let the Division Bell be rung.

Order, Senators! We now have a quorum so we shall commence our business.

Order, Senators. I have a Communication to make. This is to inform you that I am in receipt of a Message from the National Assembly to the Senate signed by the Speaker of the National Assembly and dated 25th October, 2013 on the appointment of Members of the Parliament of Kenya to the Pan-African Parliament (PAP). Pursuant to Standing Order No.40 (4), I am required to report the Message of the National Assembly to the Senate at the first convenient opportunity after its receipt, in any event, not later than the next sitting day, which in this case is today, Tuesday 29th October, 2013. The message from the National Assembly reads as follows:

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Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek for a Statement from the Chairman of the Committee on Energy, Roads and Transportation in respect of the stand- off between Tullow Oil Company and the residents of Turkana County which has forced the oil drilling company to stop business. I would like the Chairman to clarify the following: What urgent measures the Government is taking to end this ugly and unfortunate incident. Secondly, to clarify how Tullow Oil Company has factored the needs of the local Turkanas in the exploitation of this oil resource. Thirdly, what the Government is doing to scale up involvement of the locals in this grand project beyond the universally accepted practice of simple casual jobs, being offered opportunities as non-skilled task workers and being given simple small-scale businesses and simple contracts. Finally, I

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Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, the message I got was not as comprehensive as what you have read.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, when you are seeking a Statement, from your experience, you know that when you pronounce a comma or a full-stop, it tends to look longer than when it is written.

Quite the contrary, commas and full-stops are never pronounced. So, how do you prolong them? When do we get a response, Committee?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, that issue needs concise and elaborate answer. Therefore, I beg your indulgence that I bring the response after two weeks.

Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale.

Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Indeed we need a comprehensive answer but it is also important for him to factor in the implications to the foreign investing community. The message should not remain undelivered for a long time since we want investors to engage in business activities in the country. Could he compromise and bring it on Thursday next week?

Mr. Chairman, the problem is that the situation now can easily get worse. So, I think that compromise suggested by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale is a good one.

I will do so, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Okay, let it be Thursday next week. Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations. The Statement relates to the issuance of guns to the Kenya Police Reservists (KPRs). In the Statement, I would like the Chairperson of the Committee to; (i) State the number of guns issued to KPRs in Turkana County, especially in Loima and Turkana South Districts. (ii) State the number of guns issued to KPRs in West Pokot County, especially in Central and North Pokot districts. (iii) Explain the criteria used in identifying the individuals to be issued with guns. (iv) Lastly, to state the number of KPRs in the said districts and confirm whether it tallies with the number in the records kept at the headquarters here in Nairobi.

Chairman, National Security and Foreign Relations Committee.

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Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg your indulgence that we be allowed to issue this Statement in the next two weeks because trying to look in the record for the names of people who are in the bush takes a bit of time. So, we shall do it within two weeks.

Except, Mr. Chairman, I thought the records are kept at the headquarters. The people might be in the bush but the records are not in the bush.

I agree with you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, but in view of the many outstanding Statements from this Committee, I ask the indulgence of the hon. Senators to give us at least ten days.

He actually does not have a problem with the two weeks and the latter reason is better than the one of the bush and records.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to respond to a request for a Statement that was sought by Sen. Wamatangi.

Sorry, Chairman. Why can we not dispose of the requests first, then I will give you the first bite. I recognise Sen. Kanainza.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I had requested for a Statement from the Committee on Devolved Government about the issue of Uwezo Fund. My questions were---

Order, Senator! There are no questions here, only Statements.

I had sought a Statement and I need an answer from the Chair because he has been evading but today, he is in the House.

Who is the Chairman of the Committee on Devolved Government?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have written a letter to the Ministry but we have not received a response. We have now resolved to call the Minister next week and then, thereafter, we shall bring the answer.

An allegation has been made that you have been ducking.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I sought this Statement before we went for recess. He has had enough time and what he is giving me is an excuse. I know that young people have not been involved in these negotiations and I wish to get an answer.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, with your indulgence and the indulgence of my friend, Sen. Kanainza, I beg to be allowed to bring the answer on Thursday next week.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, let me hope he will keep the promise. Next Thursday I will be here and I want to know why the youth department has been ignored.

Chairman, the Statement was actually sought on 1st August, 2013 and was supposed to be due on 17th September, 2013 and again on 10th October, 2013. So, the Senator has every reason to feel uncomfortable with that timeline. So, ensure that this time the one you have promised will be the correct one. Sen. Billow, the last inquiry.

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Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Education, Science and Technology on the following: In view of the transfer of various functions to the county governments, it is becoming very difficult for some counties to determine whether they can use their revenues to finance certain activities. In particular, I would appreciate if the Chair would clarify, with regard to education, the following issues:- (i) Whether the county governments can use that money for the purposes of establishing bursaries for secondary and university students because there are concerns over that. (ii) Whether they can recruit and pay teachers through the board of governors system because a number of counties have their priorities as lack of teachers. (iii) Whether they can purchase equipment and establish infrastructure in schools. Again, this is an area that a number of counties have a concern with and I will appreciate if the Chair would clarify the issue.

Is the Chairman here?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I can respond to those questions in two weeks’ time.

Okay. Did you have a response? We are done with those seeking Statements.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to respond to Sen. Wamatangi’s Statement regarding a very serious matter at the moment in Kenya, of digital migration. The Senator sought to find out whether we are ready as a country to migrate on 13th December, 2013 as proposed. The following is the response from the Ministry.

The first issue was whether there are enough migration top boxes that are set to be installed for all the people of Kenya.

The analogue switch off of the existing analog television transmission shall be implemented in three phases whose deadlines have been set as follows: On 13th December, 2013 - Nairobi region. On 30th March, 2014 - Mombasa,Malindi,Nyeri, Meru, Kisumu, Webuye, Kisii, Nakuru and Eldoret. On 30th June, 2014

- All other regions.

The Government has already gazetted the above deadlines in the Kenya Gazette of 18th October, 2013. At the moment, the analog switch off is focusing on Nairobi region and its environs where the existing analog television transmitters shall be switched off on 13th December, 2013. The estimated shortfall in the number of Free-to-Air ((FTA) set top boxes is 700,000 and is detailed as follows:

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On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I wanted Sen. Kagwe to finish his Statement. When he talked about the analogue switch off, the Senate Majority Leader turned to me and said: “We will switch you off”. Is it in order for him to insinuate that he will switch us off as Senators?

Did he insinuate or he told you? Did he tell you in your capacity as the Senator for Mombasa or he referred to all Senators?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, while seated right there, he projected his head and said: “We will switch you off”. So, I do not know what that metaphor was supposed to mean.

(Prof.) Kindiki: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am actually surprised with the statement which has been made here by my colleague, the Senator for Mombasa, who is actually a good friend of mine. First of all, it is not in the nature of the Senate Majority Leader to conduct business or speak those kinds of words. My record is very clear in this House. More fundamentally, the Senator for Mombasa is out of order because, in my view, he is trying to say that the Senate Majority Leader has communicated in a way other than the usual way in this House which is through the Chair. There is no way I can communicate to this Senate when I am in this Chamber unless I speak through the Chair. Is he in order?

I agree with the Senate Majority Leader. Unfortunately for the Senator for Mombasa, the Senate Majority Leader has every opportunity to speak and he has denied that he said such words. So, let us rest the case there.

Who had requested the Statement?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the answer that has been given by the Chairman is satisfactory.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, on 7th October, I tried to answer Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo’s Statement about the---

Order! Order, Chairman! Let us see those Senators who are interested to make interventions on the Statement from the Chairman of Education, Information and Technology. Sen. (Dr.) Machage!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, as we appreciate the Statement given by the Chairman, he should also note that he has talked about 45 vendors being allocated the duties of distribution of the set top boxes. Could he tell us who they are and what the rationale for the selection was?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not have a point of clarification but to just request the Chair that next time such an answer must be broken down in a more consumable language; not a technical language. Part of the reason why many Senators are not seeking clarifications is because he has hidden himself behind the technical knowledge.

Sen. Murkomen, you should speak for yourself. The Senator who sought the Statement was completely satisfied and very happy with the

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Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Chairman clarify whether indeed this is the last time the Chairman is telling us that they will switch off because this is something which has been going on for a very long time and whether the media owners are now happy or we will still have conflict with them as we switch off?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, first on Sen. (Dr.) Machage’s question with regard to who the 45 vendors are, I do not know them as I speak here right now. What I know is that they are the normal traders and anybody who applies to the Communications Commission of Kenya (CCK), as long as they have the right specifications, they can be able to trade in set top boxes. Any trader who wants to apply can do so. The only reason they apply is so that they can get the proper type of set top boxes. Otherwise they can bring in boxes here that are not approved and they will not serve the purpose from 13th December, 2013.

I really sympathize with Sen. Murkomen on grounds that he wants me to simplify on something that cannot be simplified beyond there. In literature, I believe it was called onomatopoeia; it is buzzing like a bee. You cannot ask me to explain the buzzing of a bee. Technically, a set top box cannot be called anything else except a set top box. It is a small little box that you put on top of the television and it receives a digital signal instead of receiving an analogue signal. It converts an analogue signal into a digital signal. I am sure that explanation will help. As everybody knows, we have moved from analogue to digital and I would urge that, as the leadership, we should also do the same thing. We should start to understand more digital than analogue. The matter is as simple as that. You are either part of the change or part of the problem. I believe that Sen. Murkomen is part of the change.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, with regard to Sen. Elachi’s question, this is a very important and serious matter. It is more serious than a lot of Kenyans currently appreciate. What the media houses have been complaining about – in my understanding – is that they need to get their own signal distribution licences so that they can be produce their own programmes and also distribute the signal to themselves. Only two signal distributors in Kenya have been given licences. One of them is Signet which is basically the Kenya Broadcasting Corporation (KBC) and the other one is Startimes. What it means is that on the night of 13th December, if you switch on the Nation Television and you do not have set top box, you will not be able to view it. You will be completely in the dark. Therefore, the implication for the media houses is huge because if people do not have set top boxes and they are not able to watch television, what it means is that the advertisers will not be interested in placing advertisements on the evening of 13th December. So, it has got huge implications. It is our hope that Kenyans understand it and get their set top boxes before 13th December. As for the happiness of the media houses, I cannot say, but I am aware that there was a meeting between the media houses, the Cabinet Secretary and the Head of State to discuss this matter of migration from analogue to digital. All I can say is that as we stand here today, since we do not have any other communication from the Ministry, the communication we have is that following the gazette notice, unless otherwise stated, for

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Mr. Speaker, Sir, maybe Sen. Kagwe did not see the gist of my question as regards the skewed contracting and skewed benefits of such a monopoly of distribution of such a national exercise. I still demand that we are told who the distributors so chosen are. I also would want to add another question that he confirms that the pricing of the set top boxes will actually be controlled and not dependent on the economics of supply and demand. I can see a situation where the demand will rise to a peak level and prices will escalate. We want protection.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am quite prepared to follow up on Sen. (Dr.) Machage’s request and get a list of the people who are distributing set top boxes. But let us not confuse that the set top boxes that we are talking about are the ones that people need to buy before next year. I will get him the list that he requires and table it on the Floor of the House. I also want to say that if there is anybody who is known to have applied and did not get approval, he should say so. You can only approve those who have applied. You cannot approve those people who have not applied. On the issue of the cost of the set top boxes, the best guarantee of lower prices on any product anywhere on earth is indeed demand and supply. Forty five people competing for the same market and others that will be approved is sufficient guarantee that the prices are going to be affordable in the country. What would be a big mistake – I agree with Sen. (Dr.) Machage – is where there will be one or two suppliers and then they can come together and create a monopoly of suppliers who are going to charge the prices the way they want. But if we can get anybody who wants to bring a set top box being allowed to do so, then I believe that the competitive environment that will be created by those approvals will be sufficient to keep the prices down.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir, the issue raised by Sen. (Dr.) Machage cannot be swept under the carpet for the reason that the Senator of Nyeri is telling us that traders should not blame anybody if they did not apply. Could he confirm and clarify to this House that you made the public aware that such a lucrative tender was there? You cannot hide under that fact when potential business people were not aware? Did you advertise those tenders?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I said, I will table the list of those who have been approved. I am aware that there has been tremendous amount of publicity, all the way from 2007 and 2008, when people were told that we will need set top boxes. We were supposed to migrate on 12th December, 2012. That was the deadline that had been set. Let us also not take the role of business people. A business person who knows that the whole world is migrating by 2015 will go out of his way to find out how they can do business. Where they have been stopped, our role will come in. If there are people who

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On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

If it is different, then it is not for this matter. What is it, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, earlier on in the afternoon, you allowed me to seek a Statement the Chairperson of the Committee on National Security on the issue of Tullow Oil Company. It has now come to pass, that as we were transacting business here, two local Members of Parliament have been arrested in connection with the same matter. They are being held at the police station. This completely changes the statement to the extent that maybe, the Chair should guide us on whether we should not be asking the Majority Leader to come here with a comprehensive statement to the extent that now that the local leaders are being arrested, obviously tension will rise in Turkana. Anything can happen.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I believe that this is important, it should be cleared up. We cannot have a situation where a Government arrests Members of Parliament who are speaking and advancing the interests of their people.

Majority Leader!

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I agree with my brother, the Senator for Kakamega County, that what is happening in Turkana County deserves a very comprehensive and thorough Statement. This is not only touching on national security, but also on the future relationship between our country and investors. As important as this is, it is something that should be processed through the usual way, through the Chairman of the relevant committee in this case maybe the Committee on Security and Foreign Relations because of the security implications or the Committee on Energy, Roads and Transportation. I do not see any justification why the Majority Leader should be involved in this one.

I completely agree with the Majority Leader that the matter can still be handled by the Committee Chairs. That should be dealt with by the Chairman of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations. That should be separate from the issues that you had sought earlier, although they are related, but in terms of the other concerns. But maybe because of the urgency, Sen. Haji, we need a communication to the request by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. When can we get it?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we will attempt to respond to the issues on Tuesday, next week.

Let us now hear Sen. (Dr.) Kuti.

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Mr. Speaker, Sir, I had earlier stated that the tradition in answering statements is such that the other members give their concerns and finally the questioner concludes. When the questioner stood up to say he was satisfied, I thought the matter was concluded. But the reaction I got is what I want to seek your guidance on. If someone wants to make something out of order, there is a parliamentary procedure to handle it. When I heard “woow”, I thought somebody was vomiting. We have to have a procedural way of handling things when they are out of order.

Order, Sen. (Dr.) Kuti! That procedure is that you rise on a point of order at that particular time. You do not raise those issues in order to escape from the same issues. But more fundamentally, Chairman of the Committee on Health, Labour and Social Welfare Committee, is that once the Statement has been sought by a Senator on the Floor of this House, it becomes the property of the House. It is not a personal possession. So, he may be satisfied because maybe he was considering certain specific aspects which were answered to his satisfaction. But other Senators may also have other areas they would want further interrogation. So, it should never occur to you that maybe you have talked to the Senator who sought your statement to be happy, he will not get away with it, other Senators will intervene.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I oblige.

Proceed then.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am responding to a Statement sought by Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, which I replied to sometime in mid-October but it generated a lot of interest. This is on the cash transfer to the elderly people. Many Senators sought further details, especially on the list.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to table the list of the beneficiaries of the cash transfer programme. This is a very voluminous document. It is 414 pages for this year only. The Members had sought the payments from 2009. I had asked the Cabinet Secretary to prepare a soft copy, so that anybody with further interest, the soft copy could be availed to the office of the Clerk and the Member could give his email address, so that the soft copy is emailed to him or her. On that basis, I beg to table the list of the beneficiaries.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, there were a few other issues that were sought. The vetting process is mainly done through the District Social Development Officers together with community leaders, be it chiefs or councilors. Awareness is built through public barazas held by the District Officers and chiefs.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am just brushing through because, generally, this is what the Members were interested in. They also wanted to know why this is called “older persons” cash transfer programme rather than “senior citizens” cash transfer programme. The term

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In addition to what the Chairman has said, the Cabinet Secretary responsible has actually written inviting the Senate for a thorough briefing on the cash transfer exercise. This is an opportunity for all Senators to avail themselves. We are working on the dates with the Ministry. We will communicate in due course. Definitely, it should not take more than two weeks for the meeting to take place.

Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to request that next week we could set time to interrogate this list in detail, so that if there are any queries - although we will be given a soft copy - this Senate can ventilate on the same.

I would suggest that we get both the soft copies and the hard copies. Senators can get this information in the room where you get documents so that you can look out for more details. But in terms of interrogation, let us do it after we get the brief from the Ministry. If there are gaps, the Chairman can pick on those at a time we can agree on.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you for that guidance. The figures are cumulative. I just want to warn Members. You may, for example, see Kshs24,000. That is the cumulative figure up to that period that, that recipient has received. It is important to note that so that you do not say: “Per month, how is it that one person gets Kshs24,000?”

Sen. Haji.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am issuing a Statement on measures to resolve boundary disputes between Meru and Isiolo counties.

On 17th September, 2013, my name sake, Sen. (Dr.) Kuti, requested for a Ministerial Statement on the measures that the Government has employed to resolve boundary disputes between Meru and Isiolo counties. In particular, he alleged that on 17th September, 2013, four people were injured and two women raped within the disputed areas.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to state as follows:

The Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (IEBC) is aware of the boundary dispute between Meru and Isiolo counties. Further the County Assembly of Isiolo has requested the Commission to avail information on the contentious boundaries. The Commission is currently working towards availing all information and technical expertise to resolve any underlying issues that touch on constituency and boundaries in the county. However, the Senate is advised that there is need for the formation of an independent commission by Parliament to address the boundary dispute as envisaged in Article 188 of the Constitution of Kenya, 2010.

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Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank the Chairman for the answer that he has given. The Meru and Isiolo people have lived together for many years. There are many people from the Meru Community within Isiolo and a few people from the Isiolo community within the Meru side. This matter of the boundary is going to be the new challenge to security, unless it is managed properly.

Mr. Speaker, sir, while the Chairman has said that the demarcation has been stopped, just the Saturday before the last one, a new market was opened up in this disputed area and it has regenerated new tension within the area. Therefore, I would like the Chairman to confirm that this new market came up exactly two weeks ago and is now a new cause of concern. I am very appreciative to my colleague, Sen. Kiraitu. We have spoken about this matter and worked together for a long time to make sure that our boundaries are peaceful and our people live peacefully together. In fact, I appreciate that he had even gone to the Office of the President. We hope to organize a joint peace meeting for the two areas. But while that is happening, it is very important that no activities happen that can escalate issues. Therefore, just as much as the demarcation has been halted in the disputed area, no other activities like the setting up of the market should come up. So, I would like that confirmation from the Chair.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, generally, I think that the Senators will agree that there are boundary disputes all over the country and this one is not in isolation. However, the question of a new market is a new matter to me. If it is true, then that is wrong. Before I can undertake to take action, the Senator should let us know whether this market has been set up on the Meru side.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is on the Meru side.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, then I undertake to caution the Cabinet Secretary that what they have stated in their Statement should be followed to the letter.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank Sen. Yusuf Haji for the Statement that he has made in this House. It is true that the Senator for Isiolo and I have

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Mr. Speaker, Sir, while I would not like this to be viewed as a duel, I think that it is very important that we realize that land is a very sensitive issue. The land that was demarcated is in Kenya and people were living in that area anyway. As I said earlier, there are Isiolo people living on the Meru side and many Meru people living in Isiolo. I think that the demarcation has been stopped on the land that is just in the town of Isiolo because of past injustices. It is just because maybe at that time the Minister for Lands, for a long time, happened to be from Meru. If you throw a stone from Isiolo, it lands in Meru. How can we expand and yet, people have to settle? I think that this is a disputed area and so, just as much as the demarcations have been stopped, any other activity on that disputed area, which the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (IEBC) had said that they were going to look into and even advised for the formation of a Parliamentary Committee--- Until all these matters are resolved, I think that is very important that activities on this land be halted, so that when the dispute is over, then we can decide how to use the land even together, because that is Kenya. As I said, people live on either side and it is important that we do not bring issues that can cause a lot of tension. There are a lot of Meru interests in Isiolo and a lot of Isiolo interests in Meru and this will bring a new tension that has not been there before.

Order, Senators! We cannot demarcate boundaries on the Floor of this House. Since already the two Senators are working to resolve the matter, let us leave it that way for now. In fact, I was very reluctant to give Sen. Kuti the chance again, because I am convinced that any further interventions on this matter can only make it worse, and I do not think that, that is the intention of any Senator dealing with this matter. You can see that interest now has extended beyond Meru County to Tharaka-Nithi County.

What is it, Senate Majority Leader?

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to agree with all the Senators who have spoken here on this matter, that is, the Senator for Isiolo, the Senator for Meru and even the Chair of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations. Boundaries are very sensitive. I am rising on a point of order because I have looked at the issue of boundaries. Unlike other areas in

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On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to propose some way forward in this matter. What my colleague, Sen. Kuti, said is true. There are many Meru people who live, especially, in Isiolo Town and there are many people from Isiolo also on the Meru side. This is historical because Isiolo Town itself was part of Meru and it is the

which leased that part to the colonial government to settle the Somalis from Somalia after the Second World War. We are not claiming the land back. At the time of the lease, the land was demarcated and the documents exist. The boundary is well known, especially to the Ministry of Interior and Coordination of National Government. Would I be in order to propose that for us to resolve this matter, the Cabinet Secretary or the Committee Chairman requests that we have a specific date when Sen. Kuti, the Governor of Meru, who had done the market, the Governor of Isiolo, the County Commissioners of Isiolo and Meru and I jointly tour that boundary? After we tour the boundary, we shall know whether there is a problem or some people are creating a problem. Jointly, that team should be able to resolve this issue once and for all, because problems arise when it is done unilaterally by either the Isiolo side or our side. I want to propose that the Chairman facilitates that kind of meeting, so that we resolve this problem.

Mr. Chairman, I think that, that is a specific request and if you could facilitate, I am sure that we will all appreciate as a country.

Mr. Chairman, Sir, I think that this is a very good proposition. We do not know how long the IEBC will take to resolve the issue. Unless Sen. Kuti has any objection, I can write to the Ministry and ask them to provide escort on a date that we shall agree on with them and possibly, even the provincial surveyors who are well versed in survey issues, so that we go and visit the boundary and try to resolve the problem.

It is so directed. Dr. Kuti, I am sure that you have no problem with that. It is just an opportunity for all of you to meet.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I agree with that proposal and thank Sen. Kiraitu for that way forward. But I think it is important that we enlarge the membership to include Members of Parliament. We could have a forum maybe even outside Meru or Isiolo and get technical people to guide us to arrive at the solution. This is because sometimes even those visits at the site can cause a lot of tension.

Sen. Kuti, those are details. I think that once the principle is agreed, then it is really the two Senators responsible and the Chairman facilitating to agree on the content and logistics. That should not be for the House. But on the matter raised by the Senate Majority Leader, on whether the IEBC is the Commission

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Who is the Mover?

Proceed, Sen. Kerrow Billow.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move The County Governments Public Finance Management Transition (Amendment) Bill, 2013. The objectives of this Bill, as set out in the memorandum of objects and reasons, are to amend the County Government Finance Management Transition Act, 2013, so as to extend the validity of the Act. The reason for this is to allow the county governments to fully operationalize their county treasuries and to pass the relevant laws governing their revenue raising measures.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, in this regard, the Bill specifically attempts to amend the Act at Section 2(1) by deleting the definition of ‘Transition period’ and substituting thereof the following new definition---

Order, Sen. Billow Kerrow! You are the Mover of the Bill, right? The Bill is being read for which time? You are supposed to state.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I beg that The County Governments Public Finance Management Transition (Amendment) Bill, 2013, be read a Second Time.

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Proceed, Sen. Billow.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Those are legal technicalities. So, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the objective of this Bill is to amend the Act by deleting Section 2(1), which talks about the definition of ‘transition period’ and inserting or substituting with the following: “Transition period refers to the period between the date of commencement of this Act and the date when the respective county treasuries are established, and in any case, not later than 30th June, 2014.” Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the purpose, as you can see clearly, is to extend the validity of this Act. The current Act as enacted reads in Section 31:

“This Act shall stand repealed with effect from 30th September, 2013.” Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, what we are trying to do is to extend, therefore, the validity of this Act. Now, it is important for Members to know why we are extending the validity of this Act. It is also important for Members to know what exactly this Act itself is about. This Act, which was passed in January, 2013, was to provide for a framework for the establishment of the county treasuries and the transitional county budget processes. It was also intended to provide transitional revenue raising measures and, generally, expenditures as well as other transitional issues regarding the accounting officers and the revenue collectors. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, specifically, I think of interest to the Members is that, that Act is the one that provided for the establishment of the transitional county treasury. This is a treasury that was set up between March to September this year by the Transition Authority (TA) to be run on a transitional basis in order to allow the county governments time to recruit their own officers who will run or establish their own county treasuries. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the same Act, again, provides that the TA shall identify the officers who will be seconded to the county governments to run those transitional treasuries. At the same time, those officers, including the transitional principal officer and so forth, who have been seconded by the TA under this Act, were required or are required to report on all public financial management matters to the TA as well as to the county executive member responsible for finance in the county government. It is also important for Members to appreciate what the transitional county treasury is and what it comprises; and who are the people who are running the county treasury on a transitional basis for that period, between March and September, 2013. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the functions are specifically provided for in Section 8 of that Act, but the individuals who are running that treasury are quite a number who were seconded there by the TA. Specifically, there is someone who is the head of treasury; there is someone who is also responsible for preparing the budgets; there were people who were also responsible for assisting the counties in keeping their financial records; all this team was sent to the county on a transitional basis. So, it was up to the county governments to now recruit their own staff, set up their treasuries and get their county governments running.

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On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. For the sake of HANSARD, my Chairman has just talked about an extension of six months. That is not entirely correct. He needs to make that correction.

Thank you very much for that correction. It is actually nine months and not six months. This is from 30th September, 2013 to 30th June, 2014. It is important for us, as the Senate, to be alive to that fact. County governments must collect revenue over and above what the local authorities used to collect. That is the expectation of the people of Kenya. County governments, with the resources, structures and the competence they have, should enhance revenue collection but not to reduce. One of the things I want to comment on is that we have seen counties coming up with their own Finance Bills and in the process, trying to set levies, rates and other charges that they are supposed to charge. We want to encourage county governments to be alive to the fact that as much as they want to collect revenue, they must appreciate that they have a responsibility or, indeed, it is in their interest to attract investors to their counties. If we charge revenue; it must be reasonable. We have seen and heard, in recent weeks, counties that charge revenues that are completely unacceptable in terms of the amounts of the rates themselves or the types of rates. We have heard of rates on dead bodies and revenues being charged for graves in large amounts. It is important for counties to appreciate that, one, they need revenue but they also need to attract businesses to their counties. So, it is important for counties to appreciate that they need the revenue but also to attract businesses to their counties. They need to attract investors and to be reasonable. They need to facilitate business and trade. We do not anticipate that county governments will come up with legislation that will hamper the growth of business. We are also aware that some counties are charging rates and levies that are punitive. For instance, you can be registered to do your business in Nairobi but for you to drive and to distribute your products in another county; you are charged levy or some fees. This is charged on the vehicles and it is happening. It is a pity. Businesses are being subjected to double taxation and to arbitrary charges and levies. This is a matter that is causing concern. The Committee on Finance, Commerce and Economic Affairs is looking at this thing critically with a view to come up with a Bill that will guide the county governments in this regard. I want to mention that counties are part of this country. A county government that is in this country is part of this country and not part of another country. So, when a business is registered in county “A” and is trying to do business in county “B”, it should not be viewed as if the business people are from another country. Counties tend to think selfishly about their own counties. They tend to say look, why is county “A” collecting the revenue and yet we are also interested in that revenue? That is a wrong concept. What is important to the county governments is that all the businesses will pay national taxes. They pay VAT, Income Tax and Customs Duty. These national taxes form part of the national revenue that is shared out equitably across the

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Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for allowing me to second this amendment. From the outset, just as my Chairperson has said, this is a brief amendment. He has explained the reason behind the amendment which is worth supporting. My Chairman has explained the reasons and the technical terms. The most important thing is to know the legalities with regard to collection of revenue, how to use the monies and to come up with county Finance Bills, which have not, so far, been passed by any county. This gives us the chance to extend the mandate of the Transition Authority. For that matter, it is in order for Members to support so that we give them a period of nine months so that counties can function well. It is good to note that all our counties are still carrying out recruitment. We do not really have any staff in place. As much as some counties may claim that their treasuries have opened accounts and are working, the truth is that they may not have staff members. It is also good to note on this Floor that counties should function better than the local authorities were functioning and operating. So, when it comes to revenue collection, we are sad to report that some counties we visited told us that in the previous month, they collected about Kshs200 million but in the current month, they have collected Kshs100 million. That was really disturbing to us and we wondered how the governors and executives will run their county governments. It is good to note that a lot of money is now being taken to the counties. As we talk, I do not think that there is any county that has used any of the monies that is available to them. We should make the governors know that they should start using that money. Otherwise, within some months, they might find themselves overwhelmed by the monies in their accounts. Maybe, one year down the line, they may not have time to spend it. I just want to support and second this amendment and note that if you look at what the Chairperson had said, there are a number of ways that the county governments are trying to use to collect more revenue. The counties are not even consulting the existing laws. They are not consulting the laws that we have between us and other communities like the East African Community (EAC) Laws. They should know that they are not supported by the law and they may be threatening investors and creating bad precedence which does not create a good environment for investors to feel that they are comfortable to work in those counties. As they do that, I also find some cases where some raw materials may be leaving some counties. For example, Mandera County could be very rich in gypsum whereas it could be leaving Mandera all the way to Athi River and what the Mandera County gains is very little. It may be in order for them to also check in terms of the raw materials which leave particular counties and go to other counties, what those counties gain.

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Thank you Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I want to thank you because I wanted, if possible, to speak fairly early in the debate so that many contributions do not confuse me. Having read this Bill and understood it, I want to request colleagues that this is a very critical amendment and we must approach it very carefully, keenly and make time to consult the client; the consumer. The consumer in this case is the governor. All the counties – I agree with Sen. Billow - are not at the same level. So, if particular counties have challenges, it should not be assumed to be the standard. We should carefully craft the law in such a manner that those who have taken off be allowed to go ahead and those ones who have issues be assisted. Unfortunately as you know, because you were involved in the Constitution making process, there is no lacuna in this particular area. The law sufficiently provides on how you can deal with those counties that have got challenges. One cannot for sure begin to understand what we are trying to do simply because you have read the Memorandum of Reasons as attached on this Bill. You begin to understand when you realize two simple things, that actually, what we are doing here is that; we are, without saying it, debating the issue of extending the life of the Transitional Authority. So, if we want to discuss the extension of the life of the Transitional Authority, the time will come. We should not do it with this kind of Bill. The moment you amend what is in the current Act, and take it to 30th June, 2014, you have extended the life of the Transitional Authority and as we all know, there is an on-going national conversation which has not been concluded.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, secondly, let it not be lost to all of us that up to 30th September, 2013, all governors in the country were not in control whatsoever of the county treasury. It is only after the expiry of this Act on 30th September, 2013 that governors and their executive committees started spending. I am giving you a real life experience from Kakamega County. In Kakamega County, my Governor, Mr. Oparanya, was completely unable to spend. He has only started spending and cash is flowing as we speak now. In fact, I have rang him barely 25 minutes ago because I wanted him to be clear how we are going to contribute this afternoon, and he has assured me that the cash is flowing. So that I do not look like I am being hypothetical, if you look at this Act whose life we are extending, we are therefore saying that we are giving five people control over the county treasury and among these five people, the Governor, the Deputy Governor and no single member of the executive committee are there. I am referring to Article 5 of the County Government Public Finance Act. It describes the members who establish the county treasury. The principal officer is responsible for all the public finance management matters. Secondly, we have the transition head of the county finance department responsible for accounting and procurement. Third, there is the transition head of the economic affairs department who shall be responsible for the economic

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On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale is misleading the House. I have watched and listened to him for some time and he continues to mislead the House. First and foremost, this is not an attempt to extend the

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Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I must thank Sen. Billow. The difficulty was that he did not know if to rise on a point of order or a point of information. Sen. Billow has attempted to inform me. But the truth is: I have had the privilege of having sat up to midnight, unlike Sen. Billow, when we were debating this particular one. Let me take you, Sen. Billow, to Clause 18 that you have talked about. The establishment he is talking about is not contrary to Clause 5. It is Clause 5 which establishes. Clause 18 refers to the established one. The establishment we were talking about at that time is because it was the National Assembly--- The TA had not sent people to the proposed county governments. Therefore, we were saying until it is established. Now that it has been established---

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

What is it, Sen. Billow? That should not be a point of information.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale continues to mislead us. If you look at Clause 18, it reads:- “Until the establishment of the County Treasury for a county, the Chairperson of the Transition Authoirty shall, in writing, designate the Transition County Principal Officer of the respective county government to be responsible for receiving, collecting and accounting for county government revenue.”

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Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this debate is not a shouting match. As time goes on, we are debating and hope that we will find a middle ground.

As I was saying, the wisdom of bringing these two teams together ---

I beg that the Chairman of the Committee continues to listen to me like he has been doing. The wisdom is that there will be no crisis. There are some counties - I do not want to say their names because it can become an emotive comment - which have got such serious challenges that if left the way the Chairman of the committee is proposing, they would literally behave like headless chicken. That is why we support the TA to that extent. I would prefer an amendment whereby even as the TA goes on, it does so, in partnership with the Executive Committee of the Governor. It is not by chance that in Kakamega County, for example, they were completely unable to spend until this Act expired. The Act expired on 30th September, 2013. The funds are flowing and people are happy. They are seeing things going on and where mistakes are being seen, the Governor is being crucified on FM stations. I am also on FM stations being called names because I have either over said it or I have not said or said it the wrong way because something has started happening. This is the participation of the public that we are talking about.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I will not oppose the Bill as such, but I will call for careful consideration in the Committee Stage. If we allow it to be extended, we will then make the county governments fully participatory.

Before I conclude my contribution, I want to refer to the statement in the Memorandum of Objectives and Reasons for this amendment. The Chairman has told us in his presentation that we are amending because this will enable the county governments to fully operationailise their county treasuries and to pass the relevant legislations governing their revenue raising measures. That is the only reason he has given us. If we dissect it, who told you, when you were seated in that Committee, that all county governments have been unable to operationalise? Did you call governors or their representatives? This is an assumption! Who told the committee that the necessary information---

On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I would like to be informed.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to inform the hon. Senator that this is not an assumption. There is a report published by the TA on the assessment of the readiness of the status of the county governments. It is in those reports that they actually itemize the readiness with respect to every aspect of a county, including their treasury, training, accounting systems and so on.

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Thank you for that piece of information on how you got to know that county governments have not fully operationalised their county treasuries. I had not looked at the report by the TA. I do not know whether you got it when you were in Mombasa recently. I did not go to Mombasa because I thought that going there was a total waste of public funds - meetings upon meetings with the TA which do not seem to tell people anything new. So, I refused to go. That money could be used to buy shoes for children in Ikolomani who go to school without shoes. I refused to go in protest.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, be that as it may, my colleague, Sen. Billow, is it true that you actually have an audit report showing that county “x” has not done the relevant legislation? If you have, I will be happy to look at it. I am not trying to play “Mr. Hard”. All I am trying to do is to ensure that we are rational. We just do not assume. Let us base things on what we have been informed factually, so that we live up to our responsibility, which is, protecting our county governments.

I will be failing as a protector of county governments, if I did not highlight these issues, especially after having spoken to Governor Oparanya this afternoon. He has told me that he has had serious challenges working with these people and that he cannot wait for them to leave. Why do we not craft this Bill in such a manner so that those of us who have recruited the necessary staff and are operating regularly, like in Kakamega County, will release these people to go to Mandera County, for example, or all other places and leave us alone? We do not want the national Government to interfere with the running of our county.

On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

Yes, you may inform me.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am surprised the hon. Senator is not informed in this regard. But I want to inform him that as soon as his county government gets its team on board, the people from the TA are supposed to be sent back to the TA. Unless the county is absorbing some of them through normal appointment and confirmation by the county board, they must be send back to TA. More importantly, 30th September, 2013, was the deadline for this to be done. So, if by 30th September, 2013, if they had their full team on board, those whom they are not absorbing should have actually been released. The Act is not keeping those people in Kakamega County.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, since I know the proceedings of the Senate are taken very seriously by Kenyans in employment in various offices, I am hoping that those who are serving in transition capacity in the County Government of Kakamega have, not only heard my debate, but they have heard your assertion that they are supposed to go. Could they, please, go away because the professionals we have hired are competent? They will do a better job. We do not want duplication of duties and so on. For example, someone refers to a Minister in Nairobi whose appointment we never even participated in vetting. We want to enjoy our independence as a county.

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Sen. Khalwale, at some point you used the word “ mtetezi ” and I did not want you interrupt you, because you were in such an emotional moment. But for the record, you need to correct that.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am sorry that I was carried away. My campaign slogan is “ mtetezi wa wanyonge, ” but what I meant by “ mtetezi ” is that we are the defender of the weak and poor within the society and, indeed, I am.

Thank you, Sen. Khalwale.

Sen. Elachi!

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I rise to support the Bill knowing very well that for the first few months, we have seen how the counties have been managing their resources.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, if this Bill is enacted into law, it will also help the counties that we know went through by-elections. There is a county, for example, Nakuru, which has not given us the whole team of the county executive committee members. We also have counties that to date have not been able to manage their resources as required. Therefore, I agree and disagree with my Senator on some of his views. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the main purpose of the Senate is to ensure that we have a uniform set for all counties. As much as we know that we have some counties that have more capacity than others, for the sake of managing them within the law, it will be very important to have this amendment Bill in place. With all due respect, I would like to tell my Senator that I know that our Governor, Mr. Oparanya, is one person who believes in order and procedures. Therefore, we should not blame him. It is also part of the weakness of the Executive; and it is the county assembly which is supposed to also monitor all that. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it is important for us, as Senators, to help the county assemblies to also look at how they are enacting legislation and assist them, because they do not have the capacity. So, as much as you are the one who handles those who are very weak, we want the people in Ikolomani to have shoes. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, having said that, when I look at the Bill and the reports that we have received so far from the Controller of Budget and the dilemma that the Auditor General is facing, we know that we still have a lot to do in terms of capacity in the counties, especially with regard to issues to do with money or resources. As I speak, we know that the counties are even charging the industries. Some have even come up with laws where, for example, when you reach Mombasa, you pay a levy, yet you have a licence and have been doing business with the national Government. By just

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There being no other person to contribute, I now call upon the Mover to reply.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I think that the Mover might have gone for prayers.

First of all, such a situation where the Mover of the Motion is not sitting here to listen, follow and ready to reply, is usually

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On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Since tomorrow we will be voting from 3.00 p.m. and we want to maximize on the time, would I kindly request that before we move to the next Order, you give me a few minutes just to reply, so that, that aspect of it is finished.

Order, Sen. Kerrow! That time came and passed. When the time came for reply, there was no one to reply. So, we are already past that stage.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Motion:- THAT, the Senate adopts the Report of the Standing Committee on Energy, Roads and Transportation on the visit to the Republic of South Korea on Nuclear Energy Cooperation from 15th to 23rd June, 2013 laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday, 23rd October, 2013.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I wish to inform the House of the visit by two Members of the Committee on Energy, Roads and Transportation to the Republic of South Korea. As the Chair, I went with the Senator and Leader of Delegation for Homa Bay, Sen. Otieno Kajwang. We were accompanied by Members of the National Assembly; hon. Onesmus Njoki, hon. Chris Bichage and hon. Rachel Amolo. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we went to South Korea because it is an economic miracle. We went to South Korea because they have shown that it is possible for a country which has started with virtually nothing to be an economic giant. This is what they are today. Korea is a country which in the 1960s virtually had the same Gross Domestic Product (GDP) and Gross National Product (GNP) like Kenya. In fact, in the 1960s, South Korea was given aid of US$10,000 by Kenya, which they acknowledged. It is amazing and extremely impressive that today, South Korea has a per capita income of

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me an opportunity to second this important Motion. First, I want to thank the Committee for presenting a very good report. This is a report that has been prepared very professionally. It is very clear and captures the main features of the visit by the Kenyan Delegation. I also want to thank the Chairman of the Committee, Sen. Gideon Moi, for the very excellent, clear and elaborate presentation he has made to this House in moving the Motion. From what he said, you can see that the Chairman is a very serious person. The chairman is keen on seeing Kenya move forward in the energy sector. One of Kenya’s biggest impediments to growth and development is electric power. The economic and social transformation which this country desires will remain a mere dream. Vision 2030 development strategy which we have talked about for very long will also remain a mirage and will never be actualized unless we develop the capacity to generate sufficient and reliable electric power to grow this economy. The report that is before us, prepared and presented by the Chairman, Energy, Roads and Transformation Committee, shows that the Republic South Korea’s power capacity was only 67,000 mega watts in 1961 when the civil war ended in that country.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to say a word of two. First, I want to thank the Committee on Energy, Roads and Transportation under the leadership of Sen. Moi for leading the delegation of the Senate and the National Assembly to this trip in South Korea.

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Tsunami.

Yes, it is a tsunami; a tsunami came and swept off the entire thing. So, when you now want to blame Korea or Japan, how do you blame them because the tsunami came and swept off this thing and actually interfered with its heating and

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Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I rise to support this report from the outset. I am also a Member of that distinguished Committee. As you realize, the Membership of that Committee includes majorly the former Ministers and Assistant Ministers. So, its institutional capacity or institutional memory is big. Madam Temporary Speaker, as you realize from this report, you will see that South Korea started exactly 50 years ago to be where they are today. We were at the same level – and I know that story has been said over and over again. It is a story that I want to think should teach Kenya lessons here and there because they made some of the right choices. Fifty years down the line, they are rated amongst the 10 largest economies in the world. This is definitely not by default, but it is by design. As we discuss this report, they already have 23 nuclear energy plants while four are under construction. This tells you that they took it very seriously and they not only provide these nuclear power plants for their country, but they are even exporting them to super powers like the USA, Europe and the Asian Continent. Madam Temporary Speaker, as we look at Vision 2030 – I know the Jubilee Government has been very keen on making sure that this will be a reality – we also must invest. There is no way we will achieve Vision 2030 without having reliable, affordable, consistent and accessible power. We are now struggling. The Ministry of Energy and Petroleum came up with the target of 5,000 megawatts. They said this can be achieved in the next few years. This is something that the President is very keen on. In fact, he is the one personally chairing that task force that is charged with that mandate of making sure that Kenya can achieve that target. We are talking about 5,000 megawatts yet South Korea is doing over 16,000 megawatts in one nuclear plant. I think we have a lot to learn from this. If we are able to sustain this supply and investors get this power - because investors would rather pay more – as business people - but be assured that the power will be there. He can, at least, rely on it. Today, you only get exorbitant bills, but you are not even assured that you will get the power that you pay for. We cannot talk of creating industries if we do not have reliable power supply in this country. Given that agriculture is a devolved function, some governors are already buying and installing processors and agro-based plants. However, this cannot be a success if we do not have reliable power. These 5,000 megawatts that we are talking about will be a combination of many things. For many years, we have been relying on hydro power, but we have seen it is not reliable and it has far reaching effects on the environment. It contributes to global warming because the water levels keep on fluctuating. We cannot really rely on hydropower generation. We have seen geothermal power generation. We, as a Committee, have visited many plants, especially in Olkaria and Baringo. We were told Baringo County has the potential of generating 3,000 megawatts. However, the cost of even doing this is crazy because you have to keep on drilling. When we went round, we found very intelligent young men and women who have been trained even outside this country, working in these ‘rigs’ as they are called. To drill one or to buy one is not less than US$2.5 million; the cost is exorbitant. Madam Temporary Speaker, we need to think big because we have tried the small things. Even the coal we are talking about in Kitui, it remains just that; a potential.

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Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me this chance to support this wonderful report that has been laid on the Table by the Committee on Energy, Roads and Transportation, chaired by Sen. Moi. We note with a lot of appreciation and mixed feelings that most of our Senate delegations have been going to the East. Why have they been going to the East? It is because the East has developed very fast compared to how Kenya has developed from the time we got our Independence in 1963. At the time we got our Independence, according to what we read, Kenya, South Korea and Malaysia were on the same footing. What is surprising us now is that those countries, which were on the same footing with Kenya in 1963, are now ahead of Kenya by far. The reason most Kenyans would want to go there is to see what miracle happened, so that all of a sudden that the countries overtook Kenya’s development record and trade. One of the reasons for this is that these countries, South Korea being one of them, have educated their people. The people are very patriotic and are selfless. They work very hard to see that their countries succeed. They have competition from the neighbouring countries also. South Korea, for example, has to compete very hard to beat North Korea which is a communist state. South Korea is a capitalist country. They must work very hard to be ahead of Cambodia and to measure up to the economic standards of Japan. That is what is making the Asian countries tick. When it comes to Kenya, you will realise that one, we are not very patriotic. Once some people find themselves in certain offices, we read in the papers, they rip off a lot of money from the public. I will not substantiate because we know they misuse money and our people are taken to court every day. We have cases of graft, but in Asia, these are things which happened in the past. They are very careful in the way they spend their money. I visited South Korea with my committee in 2004. They were asking us why Kenyans are keen in investing in South Korea. When we came home, we compared what we had seen and what was in Kenya and what we should do next. That is what South Eastern countries like Malaysia, South Korea and Japan are asking every day. One thing we must understand is that Koreans are very industrialized. Their focus is towards industrialization. Their education is towards industrialization and not the white-collar jobs kind of education. What we saw was that they do not have very big institutions like universities. Most of the colleges are middle level institutes of technology. The largest of them which we noted at that time and I believe it is still there is the Korean Institute of Science and Technology. It is the biggest Science and Technology Institute in Korea training engineers who are devolved to the lower levels to make sure that they start the cottage industries. They are the ones who also do land reclamation.

Madam Temporary Speaker, the rules in South Korea are such that they are oriented towards the development of the country. In South Korea, for example, you cannot walk on roads. There are underground tunnels because the speed of motor vehicles is very high. It is a crime to be found jumping over the road rails. Here, in Kenya, the rules are broken every minute and nobody seems to care. For example, we have the Thika Superhighway. If you went to inspect the road, you will be surprised that most of the

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Order, Senator, you still have 15 minutes more before you conclude your contribution. But if you have concluded---

Madam Temporary Speaker, Sir, I have not.

Have you now changed your mind? When we resume debate on this Motion, you will have 15 minutes to conclude your contribution.

Hon. Senators, it now thirty minutes past six. The Senate stands adjourned to tomorrow, Wednesday 30th October, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.

The Senate rose at 6.30 p.m.

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