Hon. Senators, let us determine if we have a quorum.

Senators, we have quorum, we may therefore commence business.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table of the House today Wednesday, 20th November, 2013. The National Honours Regulations, 2013

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Finance, Commerce and Economic Affairs concerning Government policy on trade in second hand clothes and cotton production. In the Statement I would like the Chairperson of the Committee to address the following:- (i) enumerate the use of cotton wool and seed; (ii) provide a short brief on the history of cotton production in Kenya and indicate why it has been neglected; (iii) state potential areas for cotton production in Kenya; (iv) state whether there is any budgetary provision this financial year for the development of the cotton industry.

Chairman! The Chair of the Committee of Agriculture, Land and Natural Resources! Any Member?

Asante, Bw. Spika. Nimekubali kuchukua hiyo Statement na nitajaribu kadiri ya uwezo ipatikane ndani ya wiki mbili.

Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo. KILLING OF THREE KENYANS FROM WEST POKOT

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations. This Statement relates to the killing of three Kenyans from West Pokot County on 18th November, 2013, who were coming from a manyata called Lorokon near Turkwel going back to their home in Kases, which is a Pokot Manyata. In the Statement, I would like the Chairperson of the Committee to explain how this happened yet the Turkana Manyata, Lorokon, is heavily guarded by security personnel from the General Service Unit (GSU), Administration Police (AP), regular police and the anti-stock theft unit. He should also state what action the national Government took in response to this grave matter and enumerate measures that will be put in place to safeguard the lives of innocent wananchi in the area.

Chairman.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we want to give the Ministry, which will respond to this Question, two weeks from today.

In two weeks’ time, Professor?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, given the urgency of the matter and also the increased tension at the border between the two counties as a result of these acts of banditry and killings, I would request that the Chairman undertakes to issue the Statement as soon as possible.

Mr. Chairman, this is actually a straightforward matter and I am sure you can deal with it in a lesser period than two weeks.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, if it was me who was going to issue it, I would even have issued it in two days but unfortunately, we have to communicate to the Cabinet Secretary and occasionally, it takes time for letters to reach there and for them to respond. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Okay. Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, yesterday, I had requested that you give me time to look at the documents in the Statement by Sen. Wangari and I am ready to interrogate.

I do not see the Senator around. Since the deliberations happened in her presence, I want to believe that she is on her way. So, we can take other Statements from the Chairman of National Security and Foreign Affairs, as we wait for the Senator to come. RAMPANT KIDNAPPINGS IN KIRINYAGA COUNTY

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is a Ministerial Statement on the rampant kidnappings in Kirinyaga County. Mr. Speaker, Sir, on 24th October, 2013 the Senator for Kirinyaga County, Sen. Karaba, requested for a Statement on the rampant kidnappings in Kirinyaga County. The honourable Senator sought to be informed whether the national Government is aware that 11 persons had been kidnapped in the last three months and the measures that had been taken to arrest the situation. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to state as follows: Contrary to the honourable Senator’s suggestion that a total of 11 persons had been kidnapped in Kirinyaga County in the last three months, only seven cases have been reported to the police as follows: 1. Rachael Wanja Njagi – OB. No.14/6/9/2013, Criminal Case No.225/373/2013, court file No.672/2013, Kutus Police Station on 6th September, 2013, age – 7 years, female - Case pending before court. 2. Nancy Nyawira Mwangi – OB. No.44/18/9/2013, 18th September, 2013, age 44 years, female – Case pending under investigation. 3. Harrison Gichuhi Hulu – OB. No.7/22/8/2013, court file No.663/2013 – Kimaciri Police Post, Sagana Police Station, 22nd August, 2013, male – Case pending before court. 4. Cyrus Munene Mwenje – deceased. OB. No.3/15/10/2013 – Kerugoya Police Station, 14th October, 2013, age 73 years, male – Case pending before court. 5. Stephen Kathuri Njue – OB. No.8/20/10/2013, Wanguru Police Station, male, case pending under investigation. 6. Margaret Wambai Muniu – OB.No.2/5/8/2013 – Sagana Police Station, 5th August, 2013, female, age 61 years – Case pending under investigation. 7. Florence Wangui Maina – OB. No.3/22/9/2013, Sagana Police Station, age 46 years, female – Case pending under investigation. Mr. Speaker, Sir, further to the police investigation and prosecution of suspects, the Government has taken the following measures to address the menace: The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Sen. Karaba.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Chairman for giving that kind of information but I would be happier if he could tell this House what he means by saying that the cases are under police investigation and others are undergoing prosecution of suspects. The other thing is that when you talk of seven victims having been kidnapped, I am aware, because I come from there and the information you have is from newspapers. It is true because another victim was kidnapped yesterday. Therefore, I am very much informed. It is important that you go back to the drawing board and find out who is telling the truth. Is it your officers or me? I am telling you the truth and the facts on the ground. The facts are as contained by my secret service. There is somebody who was kidnapped at Kagio and killed. He is a butcher.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is it, Sen. Hassan?

In his question, Sen. Karaba just indicated to us that he has a secret service and I know by all definitions of law, it is illegal for a private individual to have a secret service. Is he in order to have a secret service?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, that could be a slip of the English Language. I meant that I have information. Information from the ground indicates that there are more than 11 people so far who have been kidnapped and more have been kidnapped since that time.

Order, Senator. You have been challenged to confirm whether you have a secret service or not.

I have said that I do not have that. It was a slip of the tongue. I apologise for that mishap.

Proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I wanted to inform the Chairman that there was one gentleman who was kidnapped at Kagio and murdered. Another one was kidnapped at Karia and was released after they realized that he was the wrong person. Then there was another police officer who was kidnapped from Moyale. He was found dead in Kerugoya Town with his gun next to his body. I am informing you so that you The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Mr. Chairman, just wait for a few more interventions.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, in recent times in this country, most crimes have actually been propagated by the uniformed staff or forces. Could the Chairman confirm that actually all these kidnappings have been planned and carried out by the security forces?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Chairman has advised members of the public not to pay ransom to these criminals and you know very well that the ransom money is usually taken to save the lives of the kidnapped people. Could the Government tell us how they intend to protect the lives the people who have been kidnapped if their next of kin refuse to send ransom money?

Sen. Juma Boy Juma.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have had two conflicting Statements: The Chairman has given us the number of people kidnapped as seven. The area Senator has given us the number of kidnapped people as 11. In this position, who do we take to be giving the Senate the correct position of the numbers of people kidnapped?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, further to that, reading the Ministerial Statement, it states that contrary to the Senator’s suggestion that a total of eleven people have been kidnapped in Kirinyaga County in the last three months, only seven cases have been reported. I think the whole gesture is not particularly a dispute in the numbers but the whole idea of kidnapping. Whether it is seven or 11, the number is such that it creates an avenue of alarm. My question is, does it really matter in terms of---

Order, Sen. Hassan! This is not question time.

Just a follow up, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Senator, just frame it properly according to the Standing Orders.

I just wish to seek clarification. Is it the volume or is it the subject matter of kidnapping which is the basis for concern? It tends to show us that the Senator has made a wild allegation yet he has made a credible allegation which has been supported by the same Statement.

Chairman.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think there is no contest as to what the hon. Senator is saying. I am sure that the hon. Senator is more conversant with his area than any other person but this is the record that has been given. My suspicion is that maybe this other three or four victims that the hon. Senator has mentioned were not reported to the police. Therefore, they might have settled the matter, without the knowledge of the Government.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is it, Sen. Karaba? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Mr. Speaker, Sir, is the Chairman trying to tell us that when a police officer is kidnapped, killed and the gun recovered, it cannot go into the official government record? That is very serious. So, who is telling the truth here? A police officer is kidnapped and found dead but his details are not recorded by the police!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not capable of telling who is telling the truth or who is lying but all I can say is that the police officer who was found dead with his gun next to him suggests more than a kidnapping case because he would have used his gun in case of kidnap. So, he might have been murdered because of another motive. Secondly, regarding the two questions that the hon. Senator raised about pending court cases, it is straight forward. The matter was reported to the police, police took action, the criminals concerned were taken to court and we are waiting for the court to dispense with the case. Investigations mean that nobody has been arrested because nobody has been taken to court. The matter is still under investigation and I think we should leave it that way. As to the question raised by Sen. (Dr.) Machage, I cannot confirm and I do not think that the security services are involved in the kidnappings but what has been stated in the newspapers - and we do not go by the papers - is that there are some ex-service men who were involved in these kidnappings. That may be correct. Regarding the question raised by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale that the Government is advising people not to pay ransom, I do agree that the money should not be paid because some delaying tactics can be used. You remember there were two Asian girls who were kidnapped and these people were demanding Kshs80 million but negotiations went on and on for two weeks until the police caught up with them. So, the Government is advising people not to enter into an agreement of paying ransom but they should let the Government know and they will be advised by the technical people who know how to end such cases. Regarding what Sen. Juma Boy Juma asked, I have said that there is no contention on who to believe and who not to believe. I have said that nobody would know better than the area leader but that is the information I was given to issue here. On the question raised by Sen. Hassan, I quite agree with him that the whole subject matter is kidnapping whether two, three, seven or ten, it is still alarming and it is worrying. So, everything possible should be done to deal with this issue.

Proceed with the other Statement. LACK OF CCTV CAMERAS IN MAJOR CITIES

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this Statement was sought by Sen. Halima Abdille on 11th July, 2013. We attempted to respond on 24th October, 2013 but more information was sought. With your permission, I wish to give the information as follows: Despite the installation of CCTV security surveillance cameras being a priority to the Government since 2006, the same has not been achieved due to various factors. Between 2006 and 2008, the project was expected to be funded by the telecommunication service providers including the Communications Commission of Kenya (CCK), The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have another Statement on the issuance of guns to Kenya Police Reservists (KPRs). Mr. Speaker, Sir, on 1st November, 2013, the Senator for West Pokot County, Prof. Lonyangapuo, requested for a Statement regarding the issuance of guns to the KPRs in Turkana County. The hon. Senator requested to be informed on: 1. The number of guns issued to KPRs in Turkana County, especially in Loima and Turkana South districts. 2. The number of guns issued to KPRs in West Pokot County, especially in Central and North Pokot Districts. 3. The criteria used in identifying the individuals to be issued with guns. 4. The number of KPRs in the said districts and confirm whether it tallies with the number and records kept at the headquarters in Nairobi. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to state as follows: I wish to seek the indulgence of this House and request that I refrain from issuing details of the firearms that have been issued to the KPRs in both Turkana and West Pokot counties for security reasons. However, the hon. Senator is requested to liaise with the Ministry of Interior and Coordination of National Government for discussion on the matter. Mr. Speaker, Sir, while enlisting KPRs, the following criteria is followed: (i) identification of potential recruits by the local community through the community leaders; The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. In the answer by the Chairman, he refused to give information on the number of arms and types to the Senate of this country citing matters of security. The worst that he could have done is to ask the Chamber to be heard in camera, because that information is very important to this House and matters of security lie in our hands. Is he in order?

Sen. Haji, just respond to that specific point of Order.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, from the outset, I asked for the indulgence of the House. This is a House of dignity and I am sure that we will not want this country to expose everything to the detriment of the security of the nation. So, I do not see any reason I should ask for this thing to be discussed in camera.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The honourable Chairman is perfectly in order to ask that we grant him an opportunity to hide some facts from the public. If it is in the thinking and desire of a Member that they must have access to this information, then the Standing Orders normally tell us that a Member can move and request that all strangers be asked to leave the House. So, Sen. Haji might not necessarily have been out of order. Sen. Machage could as well have asked that strangers be asked to leave the House. He is quite in order.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I said earlier, nothing stops the hon. Senator from walking to the Office of the Cabinet Secretary and asking for this information in confidence, and he will be given. I asked for the indulgence of this House that this is not a big deal. This information can be sought and it will be given. I will assist the hon. Senators to get this information. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Once a Statement is sought, it is the property of this House and ceases to be an individual Member’s issue. Is the Chairman in order to tell this House that the individual Senator who asked the question should now seek private consultation to get the necessary information?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the hon. Senator should withdraw the word “private.” I never said “private,” but I stand by what I have said; that this information will be given.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Chairman for labouring to bring this Statement. Like my colleagues who have spoken before me have mentioned, I sought this Statement while knowing very well that I needed the answers to be given. So, if there is anything that the ordinary mwananchi is not supposed to know, the hon. Senators are supposed to know this. I took an opportunity to talk to the relevant officers and they told me that I would be given the information when I seek this Statement. So, the Chairman should not speak on their behalf. You cannot say that we cannot reveal this when there is a lot of mayhem right now at the border of West Pokot and Turkana and also Samburu and Turkana. We need this information to come in the open, so that we can know whether or not the firearms that are being used there belong to the Government. Mr. Speaker, Sir, lastly, the Chairman has given a very long list of almost ten criteria that they follow in identifying who becomes a KPR. I have just sought a Statement a few minutes ago, where one bandit from Turkana killed three people and it is known that he is a KPR. His name is Ang’olesin Lokuron. I do not know whether this criterion was followed in identifying him. The Officers Commanding Police Division (OCPDs) from the two sides are looking for this character at the moment. So, the Chairman should not say that he cannot reveal the information when there is a problem there. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the information on the firearms can also assist us to determine whether the guns that got lost in Baragoi are the ones being used to kill people.

Hon. Senators, before we proceed, I think that the Senators have raised a number of points of order on whether the Chairperson of a Committee can refuse to give information, because it is secret by nature. I think that Sen.(Dr.) Khalwale was referring to Standing Order No.235, when asking Sen.(Dr.) Machage--- It reads: “A Senator may, at any time, rise to claim that the public or any particular person be, for reasons stated, excluded from the Senate or from a committee, and if the Speaker is of the opinion that there are justifiable reasons for the exclusion, he or she may order that the public or such person withdraw from the Senate or the committee.” Of course, that must be determined by the Speaker, if you gave reasons. Standing Order No.230 reads:- “The Speaker may direct any matter which, in the Speaker’s opinion, is secret or purely personal to be excluded from the Journals of the Senate and from the verbatim report of the proceedings of the Senate, and to be the subject of a The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I represent the Cabinet Secretary by issuing this Statement. I am not a lawyer to quote any section of the law of the country that will bar them from giving this information. That notwithstanding, if you so direct, I will ask them to provide that information. But I think that, first and foremost, we should consider what value it will add by making public the number of guns held by KPRs in Turkana. Mr. Speaker, Sir, as to the question asked by the Senator; whether or not some of those guns were taken from the police in Baragoi, the information does not really tell us about that. This was a request from the Cabinet Secretary, but we will abide by whatever ruling the Chair will give.

On a point of information, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Mr. Chairman, do you want to be informed? Before the information, let us get the point of order by Sen. Machage.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. You did give a direction and maybe it could be taken as a ruling; that unless the Chairman quotes the section of the law that he thinks privileges his information, then he should give us the information that we want. Instead, the Chairman has stated that it adds no value despite your directive. Is he in order?

Order, Sen. Machage! The Chairman said that the Cabinet Secretary had requested not to provide that information. So, obviously, even the Chairman, as he sits here, does not have the information. But he also says that if he is directed to do so, he will go and get the information. I think that, that is on record. It must also be clarified that the Chairman said that Sen. Lonyangapuo was asking for information on KPRs from Turkana County. Mr. Chairman, I think that you need to properly represent the Senator; that he was asking for information on the KPRs from the two neighbouring counties of Turkana and West Pokot. Do you want to get information from Sen. Munyes?

Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

(Hon. Ethuro)

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have information that might just help to put this matter very clear. We might end up prejudicing the security of our land if this information is given, knowing that Turkana County has three international borders. We have Sudan, Ethiopia and Uganda borders. So, by giving such information to the whole world, I think this is endangering the lives of the people of Turkana. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

(Hon. Ethuro)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

(Hon. Ethuro)

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am surprised at the way my brother, Sen. Munyes, is talking. People are being killed at the border of West Pokot and Turkana, and I came to speak for the two communities. When he says that I keep talking about Turkana, what does that mean? Are you saying that they are not my people? You should declare your interest, because those are my people and I should talk for them.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

(Hon. Ethuro)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Besides your direction, the Chairperson was asking whether it will add any value; and I am not saying this just for Turkana and Pokot, but from the fact that almost in all pastoralist districts---

(Hon. Ethuro)

I got this particular one---

(Hon. Ethuro)

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to say that it will add value because it will stop speculation, rifts between communities and build confidence in terms of boosting security. There will be absolutely no harm; even if you do not share the information with the whole House, for instance, and just share it with the two Senators as directed. It will really help to reduce tension between the communities because many a times, people complain of an additional strength or favor from one particular Government source. So, it will really help and add value---

(Hon. Ethuro)

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise on Standing Order No.108 as regards the conduct of Sen. Munyes on his address to Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo. If that trend continues, where hon. Senators cannot ask about issues which are pertinent to the neighboring counties, then we will be mouth-gagged. Is he not out of order? He should actually be declared disorderly and so punished.

What is the punishment?

(Hon. Ethuro)

Mr. Speaker, Sir, mine is not a point of order. I just want further clarification. I quite agree with the Government that there is nothing that we are going to gain from disclosing the number of firearms in the hands of our people, but because we have severally heard leaders from the Pokot side on one side, and leaders from the Turkana side on the other side complaining that the Government is arming one community better than the other community, could he then, without disclosing the number of firearms, confirm that the Government ensures that we have an equal number of firearms in the hands of both communities?

(Hon. Ethuro)

First, I want to oblige, as you directed; I will facilitate the two Members of Parliament to---

(Hon. Ethuro)

I will facilitate the two Senators, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Secondly, as to the question raised by Sen. Abdirahman, first and foremost, we know that there are a lot of illegal arms held by various communities. First of all, they should be asked to surrender those arms and then we will look into the possibility of arming homeguards in various places of this country. Thirdly, Mr. Speaker, Sir, the question raised by my good friend, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, I think we cannot give arms equally because it depends on the population of the people and the area that is affected---

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

(Hon. Ethuro)

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thought my contributions were adding a little value on the efforts that the Chairperson is going to make. I was not asking a question as such with regards to arming more people. I was talking about providing information to both parties to help build confidence amongst the communities in terms of---

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

(Hon. Ethuro)

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I need direction. We are creating an impression in this Senate in terms of the arming of communities as if we want to create some equal armies because we anticipate a fight between these two communities. By the way, we are conducting the last bit of the session. It appears as if we want to create a balance of firepower so that when there is some kind of fight, it is equal. I do not think that is the intention of the security agencies.

(Hon. Ethuro)

Yes. I have not said that we should arm people equally. First of all, the number of people is not the same; the areas of conflict are not the same; one part of Turkana may be peaceful, another part of West Pokot is peaceful, so there is no unrest as Sen. Hassan said, as far as homeguards are concerned.

(Hon. Ethuro)

Mr. Speaker, Sir, just discussing the issue of arms again, the people of Turkana have been affected by the transfer of the Kenya Police Reservists (KPRs), who we are talking about, to the oil operations. We have lost nearly all the KPRs, who have been transferred to the three oil companies, and the Government The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

(Hon. Ethuro)

Could the Chairperson help in replenishing our security? I am talking of as at the time when even the General Service Unit (GSU) ---

(Hon. Ethuro)

The GSU and the Ray Company, who were along that border, have now been transferred to support the oil operations. What are we doing along these borders to ensure that peace will prevail and to control this banditry?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think Sen. Munyes is raising a new issue all together. But as you have directed, since the two Senators are going to meet the Cabinet Secretary, these are some of the issues that we can discuss with them and find a solution. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

(Hon. Ethuro)

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have scheduled the meeting for Tuesday next week.

(Hon. Ethuro)

Sen. Orengo, do you have a request for a statement?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I had requested a statement last week and the Chair gave his word and promised to present the statement today. This was with regard to the withdrawal of security personnel from Sen. Muthama. I would like to know whether the Chairman will make the statement.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to apologise to Senator Orengo because I have not given him the statement. There was a hitch in communication. Unfortunately, the letters requesting for this statement came in yesterday. This morning, I requested the Clerk to follow it up. I will ask the Clerk to follow up. Hopefully, he will give the information as soon as we receive it, then I can give the statement. I will talk to him before that.

Mr. Speaker, the Chairman has not given an indication of when he will give the statement. So, I am still left at a loss.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, God willing, I will give it on Tuesday next week. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

God willing?

Order, Sen. Orengo! You cannot impose your beliefs on other people. Let me urge you, Sen. Haji, to see that this is a matter involving one of us and it concerns security. It should be taken very seriously. We understand the reasons for the delay but you should take keen interest in it since it is a matter affecting a Senator.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not want to make a promise that I may not deliver. However, I will attempt tomorrow. If I face any problems, I will talk to him.

You should be happy about that, Sen. Orengo. ALLEGED INVOLVEMENT OF PUBLIC OFFICERS IN COACHING OF ICC WITNESSES

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker Sir I had also made a request for another statement in the absence of the Chair of the Legal Affairs and Human Rights Committee. On his behalf, the Vice Chairperson promised to give the statement next week on Thursday. Now that the Chairperson is here, could he confirm when he will give the statement? This was in relation to the prosecution at The Hague.

Mr. Chairman, indeed, the Vice Chairman, informed me about the statement sought. I am now looking into it and I hope that I can respond to it next week with the help of the Government Ministries concerned. I will endeavour to do it. If I fail, I will come back and inform you.

When, next week, will you give the statement?

Let me say that I will give all the statements on Thursday, next week.

Our records show that on the issue of the ICC witnesses, your Committee undertook to make a statement on 26th November which will be on Tuesday. That should remain. With regard to the statement requested by Sen. Orengo, you must appreciate the given timelines.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This undertaking was given by Sen. Sang pending confirmation from the Chair. Therefore, he said that he could not give a statement unless the Chair confirmed. I am just wondering whether---

Order! Any Member of a Committee and, indeed, any Senator can give an undertaking to transmit the information to the Chair. As honourable as we are, we have no basis of doubting the ability of Sen. Sang, who is the able Vice Chairman, to deliver that statement to the Chairman.

On a point of order.

Order! You will not engage the Chair. That is my considered opinion on this matter and there is nothing useful that you will add. Is there any other statement?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I had requested but I realized that the Chairman is not around. I would like to request, if you do not mind, that you allow me to interrogate the matter a week after next week. Tomorrow, I will not be The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

When will you want it?

Tuesday of the week after next week.

Anybody who knows the whereabouts of Sen. Wangari?

Sen. Wangari is my Vice Chair in another Committee so I undertake to deliver the message to her.

As you deliver the message, remember that these are matters that we canvassed yesterday and agreed that the matter would come up today. For her to evaporate into thin air, that is very worrying.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, in all due fairness, Sen. Wangari is just but a Member of the Committee. When she undertook yesterday to report today, she was doing it on behalf of the committee. So, the Chair of that Committee and the Vice Chair should also have been prudent enough to avail themselves.

Order, Sen. Murkomen! You are completely unfair to the rest of us who followed the proceedings yesterday. She rose up with two statements, she was being referred to as the Chair and did not object at any one time. As far as we are concerned, she had all the powers and might of the Chair. You should know, Sen. Murkomen, that whenever you sit on my Chair, you are accorded all the full privileges that appertain to the Chair. Sen. Khalwale, we will probably push this to 3rd December.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to thank you for your indulgence. Probably for the benefit of the House, when the Chairperson spoke yesterday, she assured us that Kshs100 million would be paid to the contractor by the end of last week. We held a meeting with the associated contractors who are in charge of this construction and they confirmed that they have not received a single cent from the Government. It should be on record that when she comes back, two weeks from today, that she brings evidence of payment of Kshs100 million to the contractor.

Any member of the Committee? Sen. Kipchumba, you need to complete your assignment. Could you undertake to pass the message?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I undertake to pass the message through the short message service (SMS) and if need be, through WhatsApp.

What did you say?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I said that I undertake to pass the message immediately using the latest technology; either through WhatsApp or SMS so that she gets it today.

While we are impressed by your technological skills, I wish you had used the same a while ago because she would have surely been near here within the time that Sen. Khalwale was waiting for her arrival. However, let us give you the benefit of doubt. In any case, that will not be necessary. There is a bit of time because 3rd will be on a Tuesday. Is there any other statement or should we move to the next order? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Thank you Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise on a point of order to seek your guidance on a matter that is important to this House. It is in the public domain that a Motion on the draft Public Finance Management (Uwezo Fund) Regulations, 2013, proposed to be made by the Cabinet Secretary, National Treasury, is before the National Assembly for debate. Once it is debated, those regulations will be gazetted and form the basis for the operation of the Uwezo Fund. In these regulations, the Cabinet Secretary referred to Section 24 of the Public Finance Management Act which empowers him to create special Funds like the National Government Public Funds which are approved by the National Assembly. He referred to Section 24(4) of the same Act that gives him the powers to set up those Funds and 24(11) that require regulations to be made for the management of operations of the fund, among other things. However, that same section talks about regulations that must guide the operations of this Fund. Section 205 of that Act is the one that spells out the procedures for establishing, setting out and preparing regulations. That Section 205 is very clear for carrying out or giving effect to this Act and goes on to say:- “That regulations made under that Section shall not take effect unless approved by a resolution passed by Parliament” In Sub-section 5 it continues and says:- “Regulations approved under that sub-section shall take effect on the day after the date on which both Houses approve the regulations”. The import of Section 205 is clear; that any regulations made under the Public Finance Management Act must be approved by both Houses of Parliament. Therefore, it is important to note that the Cabinet Minister for Treasury, in my view, was not correct to simply forward the same to the National Assembly only. It is guidance I am seeking; that the regulations be sent to this House in accordance with the law so that the Committee on Delegated Legislation together with other relevant committees can at them. That is the guidance that I am seeking.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to expand the sphere of Sen. Billow’s request. I think the Senate and the National Assembly have ultimately also been guided as to how the legislative process shall take effect in between the two Houses. I do acknowledge that there are several other legislations that have since been presented to the National Assembly and I seek further clarification from the Chair whether your input has been sought and whether some consultations have been going on. This request may be specific to one law but we have all these other legislative functions that appear to be The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Mr. Speaker, Sir, when this matter came before the National Assembly, it came as business by way of debate on rules and regulations. As far as Article 110 (3) of the Constitution is concerned, does this cover regulations or is it only limited to the business of Bills? It would be nice for you to tell us. If it does, maybe you will tell us whether you were invited for that discussion before this business went to the Floor of the House.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, along those lines, I think we would like to be informed what steps have been taken to implement that very important advisory opinion that we received from the Supreme Court of Kenya. It was a landmark decision, it was very clear in its terms on the procedures that must be followed on issues of legislation; on the roles of the Senate and the National Assembly. I would have thought that immediately after the ruling was given, then steps should have been taken to see how to implement that ruling in future and if those steps have not been followed in the past, how to rectify what was not followed in the past. I must say I was a bit surprised – I do not know whether it was reported correctly – when the Speaker of the National Assembly is reported to have said that that ruling is of no consequence whatsoever which really flies in the face of what the rule of law is all about and that caused me a lot of worry; that here is the first major ruling from the Supreme Court of Kenya on the interpretation of the Constitution on a very important issue and here is somebody saying that that ruling is of no consequence whatsoever. Hence my rising up and asking you what steps have been taken to ensure that that the advisory opinion which was given is strictly being followed. If that is so, then, obviously, the regulations which we are talking about are matters which this House must be concerned with because regulations are part of the law of the land. It is part of legislation.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the regulations we are discussing are related to a Fund called Uwezo Fund which is basically domiciled in a Ministry called the Ministry of Devolution and Planning. The Ministry of Devolution and Planning should be friendly to the Senate and even if we had prior knowledge, these regulations should have started from Senators before they went to the National Assembly. Be it as it may, while concurring with what my colleagues have said; whether you met with the Speaker of the National Assembly and whether the procedure that was required under Article 10 was followed, I think there is another issue that we need to be clear about. Once a decision of the magnitude of the Supreme Court’s ruling was made, was there a team from both Houses that was able to sit down, digest the decision and come up with a roadmap as to how to implement it, the procedure for implementation and correcting the impression that Parliament is just one arm of the House which is the National Assembly. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

(Hon. Ethuro); Order, Sen. Murkomen! While Sen. Billow sought a very specific matter and rightly so and I will definitely respond tomorrow, other Senators have sought in the words of Sen. Hassan to expand the specifics which I find, of course, is a contradiction because you can only reduce from the larger to the smaller. I do not know to what extent you can magnify the smaller to the bigger. Assuming they are related issues, I think it must be abundantly clear that our Standing Orders do not allow us to discuss our colleagues in the other Chamber. So, that must be made abundantly clear. But the issues you are raising in terms of how we have proceeded after the advisory opinion was given in terms of the implementation of Article 110 (3) of the Constitution, I want to confirm to you that we are working on that. From where I sit, I do not see any hostility to that particular advisory opinion from any quarter. I will provide a considered ruling which will deal with all those matters. For the last one of Sen. Murkomen, we have actually very good personal, cordial relations and so I cannot help to answer you in the manner in which you may have wished to. We relate very well, so suffice it that way for now.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Thank you for giving me this opportunity to make a request under Standing Order No.39 (2) which states:- “The business shall be disposed of in the sequence in which it appears on the Order Paper or in such other sequence as the Speaker may, for the convenience of the Senate, direct”. Mr. Speaker, Sir, as you notice from the Order Paper, we are now going into Division. There will be two Divisions which will be held but the quorum does not appear to be there. Thereafter, there will be the Second Reading of a very important Bill; the County Government (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill (Senate Bills No. 4 of 2013). This is a very important Bill that has taken my Committee a lot of trouble and we have indeed produced a report. I wish to apologize to the House that when you came to Order No.5, I was just coming in and I was not able to lay our report on the table of the House. I would, therefore, kindly request that this be laid before we commence the Second Reading of that Bill because it will really facilitate a more informed debate and contribution to the Bill which is coming up for the Second Reading. I humbly request.

I want to confirm that Sen. Wako had approached the Chair and apologized profusely for not being there when the Order for laying of the documents on the table under Papers was called out. In view of the arguments he has put and on the need to move that particular Motion if we reach there in a way that will enrich The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay the following Paper on the table:- The report of the Standing Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights on the County Governments (Amendment) Bill (Senate Bill No.2 Bill of 2013.

Let us go to Order No.8.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise on Standing Order No.51 (3) to say that in view of the provisions of Standing Order No.68 (2) (c), the Division be adjourned to a later day.

What is your proposal?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, tomorrow being a Thursday, it will be tricky and it is starting to be our practice that we carry out voting on Wednesdays afternoon.

(Hon. Ethuro) But so is today?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, today, we will not be able to comply with Standing Order No.68 (2) (c), in view of the mood in the House.

My argument is that you are saying that it seems the tradition for going to Division is Wednesday afternoon. Then you need to explain the break from tradition for today. Is today not Wednesday afternoon?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I heard a rumour - I am not allowed to proceed on the strength of it – that quite a number of distinguished Senators are representing this Senate in various aspects outside the country. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

So, we will postpone the Division to Wednesday next week, that is, 27th November, 2013.

Next Order!

I guess for the same reasons, although I do not know why they should be tied, we will push the putting of the question to Wednesday next week. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that The County Governments (Amendment) (No.2) Bill, Senate Bill No.4 of 2013, be now read a Second Time. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is a Bill to amend the County Governments Act of 2013. The Bill seeks to amend the County Governments Act to provide for a platform for the county governments and national Government to engage at the county level. If you look at the Constitution, the role of the Senate, as captured under Article 96, provides that the Senate represents the counties and their governments and to protect the interest of counties and their governments. The second constitutional responsibility given to the Senate is the lawmaking process. The final one is to determine allocation of national revenue among counties and oversight the same. Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have been discussing in this House the structures available for the Senate and Members of this House to carry out their constitutional responsibilities under the new Constitution. Therefore, the amendment Bill that I am proposing seeks to provide that platform. I, therefore, wish to look at the highlights of the Bill. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to appreciate the indulgence that you have given to the Chair of the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights, in terms of allowing him to table the Report. As a Committee, we have looked at this Bill and carried out a lot of public participation on it. We have also received a lot of valuable contributions from the various stakeholders. When this Bill was first published, we had a lot of serious resistance from various stakeholders. One of the issues that were raised was the fact that we had not carried out public consultations. I want to single out two institutions that raised some of these issues. One of them was the Constitution Implementation Commission (CIC). We invited them as the first stakeholder and they made their presentations. We had discussions with them and allayed some of the fears that they had. We eventually settled on a more agreeable version of the Bill, which we will amend as we move on. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Bill seeks to provide this Senate with a platform to carry out its constitutional responsibilities. It is important to note that you cannot expect the Senate to protect the interests of the counties and their governments when they have no idea what goes on within those governments. You cannot expect me, as the Senator for Nandi, for example, to contribute effectively to the County Allocation of Revenue Bill or the Division of Revenue Bill when I have no idea of the needs of my county. We are seated The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Order, Sen. Sang! Do you want to make a request on a point of order?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I would like to make a request to seek your indulgence so that you give me a few more minutes under Article 98(4) of the Standing Orders.

I do not know whether the Standing Orders have Articles. You will have to be very specific. How many minutes do you request?

Mr. Temporary Speaker I request for four minutes.

Considering the weight of this Bill and the interests that Members have and being the Mover of the Bill, I will add you ten minutes.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker. I wanted to allay fears that have been raised by Cabinet Secretaries and some organized groups with regard to the thought that through this Bill, the Senators want to take up the running of county governments. That is far from the truth. We are looking at creating a platform for us to discuss, engage, advise and make contributions to the development of the counties. We are not and I am sure that none of these Senators, seated in this House, want to take the Executive The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it is my pleasure to second this very important Bill which shows that the Senate is entering into its second phase of development. We are moving away from Motions which appeal to the Government to do “a”, “b” and “c” to what we are elected to do, which is legislation. To me, this is one of the most important legislations and we should thank the originator of the Bill, Sen. Sang of Nandi County, one of the youngest Senators in this House, for coming up with this excellent Bill. The Bill, as usual, was referred to us; the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights. Therefore, I will focus on the technical aspect of it since Sen. Sang has told us what this Bill is all about. We want to make sure that this Bill becomes constitutional. In accordance with our mandate, we held public hearings. Amongst the public entities that came before us – this is mentioned on page 2 of our Report – were the CIC, the Governors Council, the County Assembly Speakers Forum, FIDA Kenya; The Law Society of Kenya (LSK), Pamoja Trust and the Multi-level Government Initiative, Sen. Kiraitu Murungi, Delarua Residents Association and Zacharia John. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, a number of them raised various objections which I have just enumerated for the purposes of the record. One of the objections was that the Bills is unconstitutional in that the board is likely to interfere with the county Government. That is the county executive and the county assembly who to them were the only institutions that have powers to prepare, approve and implement all county development plans, projects and budgets. The other objection was that the Bill as it stood involved Senators, Members of the National Assembly and Members of the County Assembly and, therefore, created a conflict of interest. They thought that conflict of interest was tantamount to interfering with their oversight role. The third one was that this oversight role has been given to the Senate corporately and does not grant individual Senators specific oversight responsibility over the counties that elected them. It is the county assembly in those counties which elected them which has an oversight role over the county executive committee. Another objection that was raised was that the proposed Bill conflicts or duplicates the functions of the Intergovernmental Relations Act. The Bill goes into what is essentially the business of county governments. Another objection was that it interferes with the budget making processes at the county level set out in the Public Finance Management Act and the County Government Act. The body would, therefore, duplicate the functions of the already established forums under the Act. They also mentioned that there was also a conflict of interest as Members of the county assemblies sitting on the Board will make recommendations and then go thereafter, sitting as the county assembly to exercise their constitutional role in approving the budget. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Thank you very much, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for allowing me to contribute to this very important Bill. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, from the outset, I want to thank Sen. Sang for introducing this Bill which is in its Second Reading stage. I also want to thank the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I rise to support this very important Motion for development. I want to start by thanking the Mover for bringing this Bill, in spite of his age, which I respect. This gives us a moment to give credit to our youth. Here, I am speaking like a father. I really must say shame on he who, in a public function somewhere in the Rift Valley, doubted the ability of Sen. Sang, purely on matters of marital status. I know these things.

Marriage has got nothing to do with the ability to think or speak clearly and to do what Sen. Sang has done. There are very many polygamists from Kakamega who I know who would not do what he has done. I really congratulate you, Senator. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this particular Bill is going to sit very well with the Governor of Kakamega because two months ago, it occurred to him that it was important that he knows what goes on in all the constituencies. I recall that he hosted all our 12 Members of Parliament and asked them to go through their development plans for the current financial year, showing what is going to what and what is going to that. So, it occurred to Governor Oparanya that he should have a clear understanding of what these Members of Parliament were doing. I am sure that he is going to find this one a very welcome legal tool that he can use on a regular basis to enrich that which he had started. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the County Development Board is about sharing of the common wealth of the counties and county governments. May I use this Floor to say that this is a matter of life and death; if you ever thought or if you ever doubted that it was not a matter of life and death, only one week ago in Matungu Constituency, Kakamega County, there was a shooting at a funeral. The security detail of the Governor had to shoot to disperse the crowd because the Deputy Speaker was now reporting back to the people the frustrations that they were going through in ensuring that there was equity in the distribution of the money that this Senate supports me in taking to Kakamega. The bodyguard had to shoot in the air. People went scampering and the body was buried unceremoniously. Upon leaving the funeral, the Governor went to the police station in Mumias to write a statement; the same with the Deputy Speaker as well as the MCAs. All went to record statements because we did not have a common board like this one to address these things. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it is not that I like matters funeral, but I am just telling you the practicability of this issue. A few days ago, we were at a funeral in Busia County. We were stunned by a Member of Parliament (MP) who faced the Governor and challenged him thus; “you were unable to balance your budget because you did not involve us, as the elected MPs from your area.” The Governor came and started telling the mourners that the MP was lying; that, indeed, he had balanced his budget. Yet we all know what happened. For those of us who sit in the Senate Committee on Finance, The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

I do not mind being informed, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I would like to inform Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale about the funeral he has spoken about that took place last weekend. I want to concur with him that it happened last Saturday again in Matungu at the funeral of former Councilor, Leni Baraza. The Deputy Speaker again came with the same, same budget and it was handed over to members of the public. It was really shameful because it showed how irresponsible the leaders are. I was forced to tell the people that they should give us time, as Senators and that we were to control the messes that are happening all over the country. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it is really irritating to see how leaders are behaving at the county level. I do not know what I can say, but it is really embarrassing---

Order! Order, Sen. Omondi! You will have your time to contribute. The information you have already given is enough.

I just wanted to inform the House, as I concur with Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Indeed---

I notice the emotions, passion and commitment of Sen. Omondi. It was noted by the Temporary Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. This was the vote of the Department of Health by the county. I continued perusing the document and I found that a whopping Kshs10 million had been budgeted for the purchase of a generator in a sub-district hospital. In our other lives, we have purchased generators for our businesses. I do not think there is a generator in the market worth Kshs10 million. One of the biggest generators that I have in my practice cost me around Kshs500,000. So, when somebody puts this kind of budget line, either he does not know what he is talking about, The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Order, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale! The assertions you are making against the Chair are---

I think you should withdraw them.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am so directed. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, if you were to bring MPs at a sitting with all of us, as stakeholders, then you would not see the kind of blunders that we saw in the National Assembly last week. The Committee on Agriculture, where two MPs from Kakamega County sit, released a statement that they were directing the Kenya Sugar Board to withdraw the operating license for Butali Sugar Company, and our MPs were seated there. So, if we were given a platform like this one, these MPs would know that to attempt to stop Butali Sugar Company from operating and crushing of cane in Butali was The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I rise to support this Bill. From the outset, let me congratulate Sen. Sang for showing his great wisdom and mind by bringing this Bill to the House. This Bill lies at the very centre of what we, Members of the Senate, are suppose to do under the Constitution. Our role as Members of the Senate is to be the guardian angel of devolution. This Bill goes a long way in illustrating that. First of all, I would like to look at the objects and reasons of this Bill, which we have been told is to provide a forum for leaders to meet. These are the leaders of the county who can discuss issues that would make the county grow. Therefore, there can never be a better forum which is led by the Senator because Senators are people of wisdom. I find that it is very timely that we have this Bill. As legislators, Governors need not worry that we want to take their jobs because we are people’s representatives. We are legislators. We are not arbitrators. That is why we keep on saying that we do not need to have CDF under Members of the National Assembly. Therefore, the illusion that many Governors have; that Senators are interested in their jobs is extremely unfounded. They have misplaced interests. I think the truth of what they are doing will be discovered when we have such a forum. Therefore, I support the creation of a forum that can bring all leaders of the county to discuss development of the county. The second thing I have noted and I commend the Mover for bringing it up is that this Bill will be for coordination and harmonisation of development projects and programmes. There can never be a better forum under the county unless we have such a forum. This is the only forum that can bring harmonisation of all the issues. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I join my colleagues in thanking Sen. Sang for bringing this amendment Bill at this time. For the last six months, since we got into devolution, we have seen scenarios of developing the counties. I wonder whether these governors are the same people who were campaigning before March, 2013. I also want to thank the Standing Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights for taking this Bill through all the steps that were mentioned by the Chairman, Senator Wako. They visited and consulted several stakeholders that are the guardians of the implementation of the Constitution, particularly the Commission for the CIC. Very many jumped into condemning the originator of this Bill even when no other Senator had seen it. I was surprised that even in my own County of West Pokot, before I knew that this Bill was in existence, everybody was up in arms confronting an innocent person. That was me; I was accused of wanting to take up their work. People in the neighbouring counties were saying the same thing to the extent that the relationship between the Senator and the leadership on the ground today, total incitement has been passed on to the county executive members. We were in Rwanda with the Committee on Education, Information and Technology (ICT). I met the County Majority Leader from West Pokot while I was watching citizen TV in my bedroom. The fellow was saying that Senators are very idle. I did not know what he was talking about, but when I came a month later, I had the privilege to look at this. I could not believe whether they were talking about the same thing that had been written here or it was something else. So, there is total misunderstanding on the ground. So many people have given it their own versions, but I The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. With all due respect to the hon. Senator, is he in order to really cast very negative aspersions on the people who are not here to defend themselves; that the investors that we see everyday in the media, from the investment conferences that are being held in all the counties, in fact, are briefcase and quacks; when none other than the President of the Republic graced one of those investment fora in Machakos? Is he in order to really discredit institutions, just to get support for the Bill? I think that this is really sad.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, my colleague should have waited for me to conclude my statement. I said that more often than not, quacks parade themselves in those offices, which is true. We do not want the anchoring of devolution to have those types of fellows crowding the development agenda for our counties. We have very good people. I expected a forum like this one to say: Can we begin with the investors that we have here, as small as they are? Let us call them and ask them how our counties can be developed with the brains that we have. From there we can expand the way we want. We recognize what happened in Machakos. Beautiful drawings are good and we also saw investors. They need to be appreciated by everybody in the whole county. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we must do things right. It might be painful for some people, but we need to move on in this direction, so that five years later, we will be the generation that anchored devolution on the right footing. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to support.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for this opportunity to support this very important aspect of the Constitution. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, first, it is fair that I say that for those who had doubts, particularly our Governors, that there was anything personal from the Senate or Senators, the Mover of this very important amendment was very cautious and used the law. This is because we have not reinvented anything as Senators. This is part of the law The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

Yes, Sen. Sang.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I wish to inform the Senator, or the ‘Duke’ of Makueni, that one of the persons responsible for the 8 per cent is none other than the person on the Chair and the Senate Majority Leader seated in this House.

I have my own view about the 8 per cent, but I shall not disclose it. You can imagine what he did when he attended to that entire crowd in Makueni!

So, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, as I wind up, I want to say that it has come to pass – and most of us have seen this in all our discussions – that some of the moves, particularly to get rid of the Transition Authority (TA), et cetera, in this Senate are all aimed at us, Senators; you know, it is a loaded gun. This is because they will soon realize that Senators are playing such a role in this country that it does not matter whether the Senate Majority Leader was elected in Tharaka Nithi; because he has an interest in Makueni and every other place where devolution is going to pass. When we sit in our Senate Committee on Finance, Commerce and Economic Affairs with my Chairperson, Sen. Billow Kerrow, and we are discussing the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I also take this opportunity to support this Bill as brought by my good friend, Sen. Sang. We are in a new dispensation and riding on a new Constitution. We need to set it right and lay a firm foundation so that tomorrow when we are done, history puts us in our rightful place. The law proposed herein will curtail, among other things, haphazard developments based on service, political and parochial whims. This Board is just a solution and we are all leaders. There is no Senator who is interested in leaving his national role to go and run for a gubernatorial position. Therefore, those fears are misplaced. This Board is premised on the same line with the District Development Focus (DDF) under the Moi regime which was a very good policy. However, it lacked implementers during that time. We need to do a lot of dissemination of information in terms of what projects are being done and where. The MCAs, Members of the National Assembly and Senators are all stakeholders in the counties. You cannot purport to be a leader if you are not involved in what is being done, where, by whom and under what terms. Members of the National Assembly have a privilege since they are provided with the CDF which has money for The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I will take that point of information.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I would like to inform the distinguished Senator for Nyamira that the county assembly is not just composed of male Members only, but there are also women Members of the County Assembly.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I appreciate the sentiments of my sister, and I stand corrected.

Although it would not be wrong if the Senator basically went to the radio station to only talk to men.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the role of this House; the House of knowledge and wisdom---. For instance, I interacted with the Governor for Nandi County and when he discovered that I was a Senator, because he found us discussing Sen. Sang’s Bill with the Member of Parliament for Endebess, he claimed that Senators were out to kill devolution. When I engaged him further, I discovered that he did not understand the roles of REA, KeRRA and KURA. I informed him that the Bill was not intended to render them jobless. So, Senators should portray a national outlook. For instance, I was the only interim Senator for four years before I was formally elected and I did not at any one time only concentrate on my county. I would like to travel all over the country to see projects in other counties for possible replication in my county. So, those fears are misplaced. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, Members of the National Assembly are supposed to be involved in the sub-counties in terms of development projects. I support the sentiments of Sen. Wako who said that we should fast track this Bill and God willing, pass it before we break for Christmas. With those few remarks, I support. However, I have been informed that I have one more minute.

For your information, the Chair will inform you that even if you have one more minute, you do not rush yourself based on the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I would like to reiterate that this is a new constitutional dispensation. Fifty years after Independence, the whole nation is looking at this House to set all the structures right for the purpose of development. With those few remarks, I support.

Hon. Members, the time being 6.30 p.m., it is now time to adjourn the Senate sitting until tomorrow, Thursday, November 21st 2013 at 2.30 p.m. The Senate rose at 6.30 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate