Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to seek a statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations on customs problems at Nadapal-Kenya-South Sudan border point. In the statement, I would like the Chairperson to state:- (1) whether the Government is aware that the Nadapal Customs Border post of Kenya and South Sudan suffers from numerous custom barriers and restrictions from the national Government; (2) whether the Government is aware that Nadapal is not covered by the electronic cargo system technology practiced in all international border posts; and, (3) To confirm that the problem at Nadapal affects revenue collection and social economic development of Turkana County and the Eastern Equatorial State of South Sudan.

Is the Chairperson here? I can see the Vice Chairperson.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I request that we be given two weeks to respond to this particular statement, if that is acceptable with the Senator.

Sen. Munyes, is that okay?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the time be reduced to one week given that we are losing so much revenue and the two communities depend on this border? This border has not been fully operational in the most efficient way for the last two years. We would want a situation where activities running along that border do so efficiently. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will try my best to have the answer within a week. But in the event that we do not get the answer within one week, I would request the Senator to bear with us.

Okay. ESCALATING BANK INTEREST RATES

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to give a statement on the escalating bank interest rates that was sought by the Senator for Murang’a County. If I may proceed?

Proceed, Senator.

The statement sought was on three areas; one, the Senator wanted to know the relationship between the high interest rates charged by banks and the very high profit after tax being made by the banks in this country. Secondly, he wanted to know the impact of the high interest rates on development and economic growth particularly in the counties. Lastly, he wanted to know the relationship between the profit made by the Central Bank of Kenya (CBK) from lending to banks and the profits made by those banks. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is very useful because these are some of the topical issues today in the country. The Government liberalized interest rates in 1992 when all the controls on lending and deposit rates were removed. Subsequently, all the interest rates are being determined, since then, by the market forces. The Senator has a copy of the answer which is long. I will be very brief. I will highlight the key areas. On the first question regarding the relationship between the high interest rates charged by the banks and the very high after tax profits made by the banks, over the past 11 years, interest rates on loans and advances in the banking sector constituted only 42 per cent of the total income of those banks. The rest of the income has been from the interest on Government securities and other non-interest income. This clearly shows that interest income on loans and advances does not constitute a significant portion of the bank’s total income. It is also worth noting that despite the consistent increase in lending from Kshs315 billion in 2003 to Kshs1.6 trillion in 2013, the average lending rates have oscillated between 11 per cent and 20 per cent over the last 11 years on average. In fact, were it not for the very high rates in 2011 and 2012 – in 2011, the rate was about 20 per cent on average and in 2012, it was 18 per cent. In 2013, the rate was about 17 per cent. Otherwise, the average rate would have been 14 per cent over the ten year period. Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is important to note that the banking sector financed an average of 83 per cent of their loans during this period from customer deposits. As a result, interest on deposits constitute 40 per cent of the total interest earned by the banks. That is the response to the issue of the high interest rates. What we are saying is that the high interest rates do not necessarily lead to the very high after tax profits. There is a schedule that we have provided, which gives the relationship across all the banks for the last 11 years. This is the relationship between the incomes by the banks and the interest rates. I will not go into that. The Senator has a copy of that schedule. But it is important to note that the high profits after tax has not necessarily been as a result of the very high interest rates. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to start by thanking the Chairman of the Committee for a reasonably well thought-out answer and for the support that he has given to it, but going through the whole of that Statement, one finds that there are a good number of contradictions in the relationship between the profits made and the interest rates charged. The last part of the question was a rider by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, and I am sure he is going to follow up on it. Mr. Speaker, Sir, at least, there have been some concessions that there is that relationship between high interest rates and very high profits made because this must be the only country in the world where banks would proudly state at the end of the year that they have Kshs17 billion after tax profit. In the meantime, very few people have been able to finance their mortgages or borrowings because part of the reason there is that high profit is because of the recoveries they are making in realizing or fore-closing on mortgages. There is a concession that 83 per cent of the loans are financed by the money we deposit in the banks as fixed deposits. You will note that if I deposit my Kshs1 million in the bank for six months or a year, I will get between 3 per cent or 5 per cent returns. If I borrow money, which is the one that another person had deposited there, I will be paying at the rate of 18 per cent per annum. Already, you can see that big disparity between how much I am getting in return for my money and how much the bank is getting. Mr. Speaker, Sir, they talk about wage bills, this is not public wage bill. This is the wage bill for the people they have employed. Then they say that this compares in the region, it does not? It does not compare in the region because if you look at the table that has been put there, you will find that in South Africa, for instance, interest on borrowings is at 8.8 per cent on average for the last ten years. In Nigeria, it is 16.8 per cent which is high; in Mauritius it is 8.7 per cent and in Malaysia, it is only 4.8 per cent. Why is there such a big disparity? Why has there been an oscillation between 11 per cent and 20 per cent in Kenya over a period of ten years? If it is not a human-made interest rate, CBK has given certain directives and some banks like Standard Chartered have already started charging lower rates. Which means it can be done if it was not something internal, either in management, policy or such other things which can be controlled. So, the question I am asking is: Does the CBK or the finance sector in Kenya realize how much investment opportunity are being lost because people cannot possibly invest unless they have cash kept in suitcases in their homes? If you have to borrow to develop, it is impossible to repay a mortgage over a period of five years, how much is this affecting the development in the counties? That is the reason I am asking these questions. Mr. Speaker, Sir, at least, I can see some positives because CBK has set up that committee and we are hoping that it is going to bring down interest rates based on those policies and not necessarily on the Euro-Dollar Bond that was recently effectuated in the country. So, the Chair is supposed to look at all those questions and see why when they talk about 42 per cent and then they say “only”---

Order, Senator. I think you have made your case. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Allow me just to say this one. They say that 42 per cent is interest on income on loans and advances, then they say “only”. That is a lot of money. I hope we can get that answer from the Chairman, then we have can have other questions for him.

Mr. Speaker, Sir---

Order, Senators! I suggest that if you want to make interventions because this is normal, just do the request. If you put it under intervention, I would imagine it is a point of order. Proceed, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, in 2010, two things happened; we promulgated the new Constitution and the credit rating became the norm in the country. The two points I want him to clarify are; why is it that even with more judges being employed, Kenyans who are seeking credit are being punished because of the slow process of settling commercial disputes and the Government is watching but does not ensure that the particular department in the commercial justice system is served with enough judges so that the process is efficient? The second one is the issue of credit rating. Granted that in a listing that we read two years ago, the Governor of CBK was rated as the poorest in Africa, could the Chairman explain whether it is the inefficiency of the Governor that is the reason why he is ensuring that the benefit of credit rating which the banks are enjoying today is not passed on to customers but instead, Kenyans still continue suffering?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to compliment the Chair of the Committee on Finance, Budget and Commerce for a very well-elaborated answer. However, I want the Chair to elaborate if 42 per cent of the high profits that the banks publish, the other 58 per cent constitute of Treasury Bills and other similar instruments--- We know that the banks are making most of their money by affording credit to the Government. Therefore, I have two questions; comparing with other countries, is it normal that the financial arrangements in the country are such that the Government must borrow and such that the banks make so much money by lending money to the Government instead of lending money to productive areas of the private sector? Secondly, whether the Government supports this as a matter of policy or whether we would like to get out of it so that Kenyans can benefit from borrowing money from the banks for business. What is the Government actually doing to come out of it? I think this is part of the problem why interest rates are so high because banks do not miss the normal borrowers, they have a ready borrower.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, first, I want to thank the Deputy Speaker for bringing this Question to the Floor. Interest rates will always determine the direction of the economy. If you look at comparable jurisdictions that embrace market economy and the country, Kenyans are so fond of quoting the United States of America (USA). In the USA, even as they believe in market forces, there is no circumstance under which banks can wake up and impose interest rates on the economy other than the Chairman of the Federal Reserve. That is why when a new person takes over the Federal Reserve, it becomes big news in the economy of USA. You heard two months ago when everybody was talking of “Yellen Effect” because this lady The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Order, Senator! It is not a contribution. It is a clarification and you have already delivered two.

Be fair to me, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Order! You cannot say that.

Thank you for being fair to me.

That is better.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. If you talk to any bank in this country, and the Chairman must know this because he is a very respected accountant, every bank has an interest-free cash-ratio that they deposit with CBK, that is, money lying in your account in CBK idle, you do not receive even 0.5 per cent interest. Every bank will pass that idle money to the customers so that they can survive. It is only in Kenya where banks make obscene profits every year. Banks that are going under in the countries where they were incorporated are making billions in Kenya. What is the Government doing to reduce interest rates in view of all this? There are many examples we can give but this is not a debate as you have said, so let me leave it there.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the issue of cost of money in this country has been there for some time. I think the Chairman will remember what celebration there was in this country when we passed the “Donde” Bill. Under that Bill, the total amount that a borrower should pay back to the bank in terms of interest rates should not exceed twice the amount borrowed. So, I would like the Chairperson to clarify whether that rule is still in force or whether it has been forgotten. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Sen. (Prof,) Lesan.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I wish to thank the Chairperson of the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget for the answer he has given. I want to seek some clarifications on the fact that this country has recently floated some Euro bonds and there is certainly some money which has flown into the country, hopefully into the Central Bank of Kenya (CBK), but which belongs to the Government of Kenya. I want to have clarification as to what the inflow of money that has come and which is The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

If all contributors were like Sen. (Prof.) Lesan, then we would have allowed more; unfortunately, there are another five and since you came, the period between the ones who had requested and you were quite long and there are already many contributors who have made interventions. Let me allow the Chairperson to respond to those ones. Proceed, Mr. Chairperson.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Senators have sought very useful information; I will try my best to answer them. As for the clarification sought by the Senator for Murang’a, it is true that when you compare with other countries in the report that I had submitted; for example, in South Africa, the private sector credit is 100 per cent of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) compared to the 42 per cent in Kenya. In other words, there is less money that was available to the private sector in Kenya than if you compare to Mauritius, South Africa and some of the other countries. Mr. Speaker, Sir, what he said is also true; that when you look at the lending rates for other countries like South Africa and so on, and so forth, it is much lower compared to Kenya. For example, in the same South Africa, it was 8 per cent in 2012 but nearly 12 per cent in 2009. When it was 12 per cent in South Africa in 2009, it was 14.8 per cent in Kenya and you could see that it compares. So, sometimes depending on the year and the circumstances in the country and the economy, and so on, and so forth, that change in the interest rates actually varies from year to year. However, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I agree that one of the challenges we have and the reason why this Kenya Bankers Reference Rate (KBRR) Rate was introduced last week by the CBK – it will remain in effect for six months, it can only be changed after every six months, it forms the baseline and they can only add their premium – and it has an effect, therefore, of reducing the rate significantly. This is a matter that has been agreed upon by stakeholders, which included the banks for the first time. So, it is our view that in the next few months, this rate should actually go down because of that competitiveness created by the KBRR; and it captures all the costs – transaction costs, the cost of the money and everything else and so on, and so forth – it is about transparency. The banks are now required to also publish every year their annual percentage rate which takes into account what their costs have been, and so on, and so forth. Above all, I want to also mention that there was a study done by the World Bank (WB) recently which shows that the actual cost in the interest rates in Kenya represents only about 48 per cent and that, up to 40 per cent is actually their profits. This study was done by the WB recently. Clearly, what it means is that with this rate and the CBK’s pressure for the banks to comply, there is really no reason why the banks should not reduce their rates. I think it is important for the CBK to start acting; it is not just about publishing a rate; but I think they must, as the regulator, put pressure on the banks to reduce their rates in line with this KBRR. So, I am hopeful that the situation will change. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the second question by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale is about the Judiciary. Just before 2010, the Government set up the Milimani Law Courts that deals The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

I see three persistent requests, so I will just allow those ones. They are Sen. Kajwang, Sen. Muthama and finally Sen. Kembi-Gitura. Let us be brief.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I did not hear the Chairperson talk about the profits that our banks seem to compete in making. In fact, they are no longer even obscene profits; they are windfalls. I want to know why a bank should compete to make the kind of profit of over Kshs5 billion. The only way in which they have raised this money is actually through increased interest rates, increased penalties and no serious trade. This is not very healthy for the economy; that money is being sucked from the investors and even from the small people by the banks in large quantities every year and they seem to be very cheerful about it. The cash ratio which the Chairperson has referred to is still extremely high. I do not see why we should keep a whole 10 per cent of the lendable money in the CBK and leave little money which then becomes very costly to the economy. You keep some money there, it is doing nothing, it is earning you nothing but at the same time, it makes the money very expensive for the people who should be doing business and making the economy better. I wish you went back there to explain some of those very serious issues. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Sen. Muthama.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Sir. Mr. Chairman, Sir, I want to---

Order!

My apologies, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I would like to seek a clarification from the Chairperson of the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget. There are two discriminative interest rates in this country. One applies to people who do not trade using the local currency. These people trade with hard currency like dollars among other currencies. The interest rate for the dollar in this country is between 10 per cent and 12 per cent. There is the more discriminative interest rate that is based on the local currency. This one ranges between 18 per cent and 24 per cent. Those who apply for credit facilities based on US dollars get less. When the dollars are sought from outside, a Kenyan will be charged an interest rate of between 5 per cent and 6 per cent if he or she wants to trade and bring the money here. In this situation, the foreign currency is charged between 10 and 12 per cent. Therefore, Kenyans cannot access both. What is the regulator or the Central Bank of Kenya (CBK) going to do to balance this situation so that if you borrow foreign currency, you are charged the same rates that apply to Kenyan shillings? That is the clarification I am seeking.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The huge profits which are being made by the banks and which some Senators have referred to as obscene and the interest rates must have a co-relationship. I would like to submit that I have not understood the relationships. There is something very unclear and hidden. I do not know whether this is out of pressure from the Kenya Bankers Association (KBA) or whether this is coming from where the rates are initiated. However, certainly, something is very wrong with the interest rates that we are being charged and, therefore, unable to invest. The profits being made by the banks year in, year out, are now in billions and billions of shillings. The CBK, in my view, must put pressure on the banks as a matter of policy to specifically reduce interest rates so that they are sustainable. We want it to be possible to invest and to create wealth in this country. My last point is that if what we read as a move by the CBK last week to reduce interest rates is a matter of policy and if the effect of it is to bring down interest rates, then this strengthens my position that this is a matter of policy or disconnect between the CBK and the commercial banks. The CBK should put its foot down and regulate the interest rates that are charged in this country so that investment becomes possible. Finally, Mr. Speaker, Sir---

I thought that was your last point?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the thoughts are conjoined. The flow of a thought from one to the other is not an easy thing and, a lot of times they are jointed.

Even the English language has a provision of jointed things.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the thoughts are co-jointed. The customer, a lot of time, suffers for sins that are not theirs. If you look at some of the reasons for high interest rates, you will see they are high overhead costs such as The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Sen. Wamatangi, seek one clarification.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also want to add my voice to the sentiments that have been expressed by my colleagues. Banks in this country are making profits which are immoral. It is not justified that---

Order, Sen. Wamatangi! You must seek a clarification and not just putting forward a statement.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wanted to seek a clarification on why, in spite of all the expiations offered, regulations have not been put in place so that banks do not continue to make immoral profits at the behest of peasants. The savers in these banks are hawkers and peasants, people who do small businesses. You will hear a bank pronouncing, at the end of the year, a profit of Kshs17 billion. This is money collected from small enterprises like Small Micro Finance Enterprises (SMEs). This is a matter that has to be dealt with firmly.

On a point of information, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I would like to inform the distinguished Senator that the regulations are there. He says that we must come up with regulations. The problem is the regulator, the CBK, which is not enforcing the regulations that have been put in place. A good example is the Joe Donde Bill that Sen. Murungi referred to

Thank you for that clarification, Sen. Khaniri. Just to finalise on my point, as a matter of a sound economy in a country, there is no way, if we build ten giants in the entire country and a million peasants that we will get the economic development that we want. The only way to get proper economic development is to trickle down to the bottom and to ensure that those who are empowered are the ones who are at the bottom of the triangle.

Order. I will not allow you to proceed. You are now making a statement instead of waiting for your clarification to be answered.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the clarification sought by Mr. Kajwang about profits, I have also made it very clear that the high profits being earned by banks is a matter of concern not just by the Government but the whole country. This matter has been raised. It is unacceptable. Even when the economy is not performing, the single sector that performs well in terms of profitability is, in fact, the banks. I want to clarify that it is only 42 per cent of the data that has been earned here that is interest earned from banks. The majority of their profits, 52 per cent come from outside interests which have been earned from those loans. It comes from Government securities and other non- interest incomes. It is important to clarify as we mentioned earlier that the Government must start--- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Chairman to continue telling this House that the continued high profits of the banks are unacceptable without telling us what the Government is doing to reduce or stop the situation? Is he in order? In certain jurisdictions, the Government sets a ceiling and says that if you make more than 20 per cent of a certain set figure, the amount above is surrendered to the Government. The Government has the opportunity and the ability to do this. Is it in order for you to continue lamenting instead of giving us solutions?

Sen. Wetangula, I thought that you would comment on the 42 per cent. That is not a small percentage. It is very significant.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I respect the Senator. However, I think he missed something. When I was presenting, about page four of that Report, I said that there are up to seven, eight or nine steps that the Government is taking to try and address that issue. One of them is the one that I mentioned on the KBA preference rates that were published last week. There are many other steps that are being taken. I did not want to go into detail. You can read these in the statement. The correlation in the schedule that is provided here is very clear. There is no direct correlation. I want to give two examples because this matter has come up several times. The figures from 2003 up to 2012 are provided. If you look at 2009/2010 Financial Year, you will see that in 2009, the interest rates were 15 per cent and banks made Kshs137 billion. The following year when the interest rates went down to 14 per cent, commercial banks still made a profit of Kshs177 billion. In other words, the profits were still going up even when the rates were going down. That means that the profits were not just from the interest earned on lending. This comes also from other sources and this is what I said. In 2012/2013, the percentage interest rates were at 20 per cent and yet they earned Kshs207 billion. In 2013, when the rates went down to 13 per cent, the figures went to Kshs278 billion. So, the problem is not necessarily directly correlated. That is the point I was making. There are a number of steps that are proposed. The challenge is on us to determine how we want to regulate interest rates. In 1992, when we liberalized the markets, since then, the rates have been determined by market forces. It is the desire of Parliament to regulate interest rates and to set limits on the maximum that a bank can charge as we have done in petroleum and other sectors. That responsibility is upon this House. I think that is something we can look at. So far, there is no regulation in force that limits lending rates. Therefore, you cannot say that a Governor is the one who has failed to enforce existing regulations. The last point with regard to what Sen. Muthama raised on the difference between rates for foreign currency and the Kenya shilling in terms of lending, this is a fact. The risks and the costs associated are not the same. The risks associated with lending in The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Order, hon. Members!

Hon. Senators, before we proceed to the next Statement, I have a communication to make on the visiting delegation from the Baringo County Assembly Women Caucus. I wish to acknowledge the presence of a delegation from Baringo County Assembly Women Caucus which is seated at the Speaker’s Gallery. As I proceed to introduce the delegation led by the Chairperson of the Caucus, Hon. Safina Chelagat, I request that if an honourable MCA is called, she should stand up and be acknowledged in the normal tradition of Parliament. They are as follows:- 1. Hon. Safina Chelagat 2. Hon. Risper Kimaiyo 3. Hon. Emmy Butuk 4. Hon. Lisa Chebet 5. Hon. Lydia Francis 6. Hon. Judy Yator 7. Hon. Cynthia Kiptui 8. Hon. Purity Tallam 9. Hon. Valentine Sergon 10. Hon. Eunice Karani 11. Hon. Magdalene Chebet 12. Hon. Juliana Letangule 13. Hon. Jeniffer Kiptoo 14. Hon. Jeniffer Koipiri 15. Hon. Beatrice Changwony 16. Hon. Lucy Ngetich They are also accompanied by the following staff:- 1. Jepkomoi Chemase, Deputy Clerk - Administration 2. Miss Betty Toroitich, Legal Officer The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Chairman, do you have another Statement or we allow the other one to go first? You have the Statement for Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. In order to give you breathing space, we allow Sen. Kivuti to give his Statement. MEASURES TO ERADICATE WILDLIFE POACHING IN KENYA

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand to issue a Statement with regard to the request posed by Sen. Kittony who sought to know the number of rhinoceros and elephants that have been killed so far, the state and the measures that the Ministry has put in place to arrest wildlife poaching, in particular the poaching of elephants and rhinos which has continued to sky rocket; the number of Sitatungas that are still alive in the country and explain why the Ministry in conjunction with the county governments has not established the Country Wildlife Conservation and Compensation committees as provided for in the Wildlife Conservation Management Act, 2013 and when the Ministry is planning to establish the Country Wildlife Conservation and Compensation committees in all the 47 counties and finally, why poaching has not been declared a national disaster. As an overview, illegal wildlife trade, poaching and encroachment of wildlife protected areas and destruction of wildlife habitat are some of the security challenges posing a threat to wildlife conservation and management efforts in the country. The Kenya Wildlife Service (KWS) is working to enforce existing laws and treaties protecting wildlife and has continued to carry out its mandate of protecting Kenya’s biodiversity by eliminating poaching within protected areas and reducing it to a bare minimum outside protected areas. The demand and price of ivory and rhino horn in the illicit market continues to drive poaching. Growing affluence and economic growth in East and South East Asia has increased demand for wildlife products. In addition, the decision of the one off sale of elephant ivory by Southern African countries in 2007 and the urge for sale of ivory stock piles haunts wildlife security in Kenya and beyond. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in answer to the questions sought by Sen. Kittony, I would like to answer as follows: On the number of rhinos and elephants killed, I wish to state that from the beginning of the year up to 25th June, 2014, there has been a gradual decline in elephant and rhino poaching particularly in major hotspots in the country where 103 elephants and 22 rhinos were poached compared to 165 and 26 elephants and rhinos respectively in the same period in 2013. This shows 38 per cent and 15.4 per cent decline in both elephant and rhino poaching countrywide, respectively. On the question of the measures taken by the Ministry to arrest poaching of elephants and rhinos, the Ministry has been strictly implementing the Rhino Strategic Plan of 2012 to 2017 and the Elephants Strategic Plan of 2012 to 2022. These strategic plans were launched in the wake of global escalations in wildlife poaching. The Ministry The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Whereas I appreciate the thoroughness of the Statement and eloquence of the Senator for Embu County, I think we should create a rule or tradition in this Senate, where we keep our answers quite brief. We can then have part of that information as an addendum to the Statement, so that the person who has sought it can then be given the answer together with the addendum. He is telling us about all the elephants that we have and so forth, which is fair enough. However, could he give an indication of how length his answer is?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have only one sentence remaining. In the past, hon. Senators have sought the fullness of answers being given. A few times we have been referred back to the Committees for giving inadequate answers. That is why I chose to give an adequate answer this time. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the last question was why poaching has not been declared a national disaster. Despite the recent reports on heightened cases of elephant and rhino poaching, the vice has not been declared a national disaster. This is because there have already been concerted efforts to contain the menace by enhancing security, including the combined patrols that I have outlined here before. At the moment, the rate of poaching, especially on elephants, has declined. Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is my answer.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I just want to draw your attention to the fact that since the Senators are very committed in Committees and elsewhere, they have started walking out of the Chamber. Given that we are due for a Division, could you consider bringing it forward, so that we can capitalize on the presence of the Senators at the moment?

I hear you, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. However, that will mean that we will have to terminate this Order and move on to the next one, which I have no problem with completely. There is Sen. Zipporah and the Chairperson of the Committee. Could you indulge us so that we can prosecute this matter tomorrow? Sen. Zipporah Kittony, we are requesting you if you could interrogate the Statement tomorrow.

Most obliged, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was imagining that from the thoroughness of the answer, the interventions will not even take five minutes. This is because I have already discussed with Sen. Kittony and apparently, she is happy with the answer. I am just requesting if you could dispense with this matter because it has been moved on four previous occasions.

Order, Sen. Kivuti! First, part of the problem is that there have been too lengthy Statements this afternoon, including yours. If Sen. Kittony is happy that does not mean that other Senators are equally happy. This is because now it is a property of the House. While I appreciate and agree with you completely that actually we have been pushing this matter and it might be unfair on your part, but because of the other business before the House, which is equally important, let us just push it plus the rest to tomorrow.

Most obliged, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Next Order!

Is it my understanding that the debate was exhausted, the Mover replied and so, it is just voting? Can I get the indication that we have the requisite numbers?

Order, hon. Senators! Under Standing Order No.74, voting on any division shall be by Electronic Voting. I, therefore, direct that the Division Bell be rung for two minutes. If you are voting on behalf of your Delegation, you need to register with the Clerks-at-the-Table. ( The Division Bell was rung)

The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Order, Senators! The Division Bell has stopped ringing. Could we have the Bars drawn now?

Order, hon. Members! Naturally, we will vote by Division. So, I am giving you one minute to settle down. According to our Standing Orders and the Constitution, all Bills of the Senate have to be voted by Division. We shall take one minute to vote. You now know the procedure; you can now insert your cards. Hon. Senators, you may now proceed to vote and remember you just press “YES,” “NO” or “ABSTAIN” just once so that the record can show. Proceed to vote now.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Order, Sen. Obure! I cannot see your intervention on the screen.

Have you voted?

I can assure you that I have voted. I know my legal rights rather well.

Order, Senators! What is the point? Sorry, I cannot hear you. One thing I do not understand is whether you can give a point of order and your intervention shown on the screen when we are voting because that has not happened in the past. Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, you may move on to the Dispatch Box to make your point of order. I can see you, but I cannot hear you.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Thank you for allowing me. Since this screen was put there for us, we have noticed the numbers build then they started dropping again. There is a possibility that somebody might have fiddled with the button. For that reason, I request that you restart the voting.

Remember that if you are delegated to vote, then you must have your delegation. It is showing that 40 hon. Members are present, you can deduct the common---

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. It is very simple. Two of my colleagues here, thought that if they pressed it twice, they would be making a very strong point for “YES.” So, they pressed twice. That is why it dropped from 24 to 22. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

What is showing right now is that 22 have voted for and 2 against. I would take Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o’s word seriously. We will give it one more go, but please, remember you press the button of your choice only once and that is it. Could you wipe the screen now? I have made a ruling that we do it again.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Sen. Kivuti, I can see you, but I cannot hear you. I will allow your point of order as soon as I can hear you. Please, wipe out the screen completely? Take us back to the normal situation. Sen. Kivuti, what is your intervention?

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I have two points to make. One is about the voting issue. I am aware my colleagues delayed and tried to vote after one minute. That means he was time-barred. Secondly, I would need your guidance on this matter. This Bill is on a national matter; that is, the Political Parties (Amendment) Bill. I do not think it is a matter of counties---

I challenge you, Sen. Kivuti. If you look at the Standing Orders, all Bills in the Senate affect counties. The rule is clear that when it comes to Bills, you vote by delegations. That is the law. So, there is no grey area. It is only in Motions that the Speaker has to determine. Can I have a copy of the Standing Orders?

I want to make this clear to you because it has come up one or two times and I think it is good to have it clear, Sen. Kivuti. Article 123(2) of the Constitution states clearly and I quote:- “When the Senate is to vote on any matter other than a Bill, the Speaker shall rule on whether the matter affects or does not affect counties.” This is replicated in our Standing Order No.73(1) which states:- “Except on a matter affecting counties, any question proposed for decision in the Senate shall be decided by a majority of the Senators present and voting.”

It fascinates me that, Sen. Kivuti, you raise an issue and then you are not even listening. It fascinates me because you either blow hot or cold, but we must follow these things together because I do not want it to come up again. Are we clear now? On a matter to do with Bills, every Bill in the Senate is voted for by delegations.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. What is not clear is when a Bill is referred from the National Assembly to the Senate. If it is a Bill affecting counties, I can understand in accordance with the Constitution and our Standing Orders. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Well, I can only read the law to you again. The Constitution is very clear on that point in Article 123(2). Now we are voting on a Bill. When it comes to a Bill, the Speaker is not enjoined to make a ruling whether or not it affects counties. It is only in Motions that the Speaker has to determine whether it affects counties or not. Every Bill in the Senate shall be voted for by delegations under Article 123 of the Constitution. Are we ready to vote? Shall we go back to voting? Tell us when you are ready. I wish to remind Members that you must vote “YES,” “NO” or “ABSTAIN.” There is no other option. The record will show how you voted.

Order, Senators! The results of the Division are as follows:-

Draw the Bar and open the door.

Next Order! THE PUBLIC PROCUREMENT AND DISPOSAL (AMENDMENT) BILL) (NATIONAL ASSEMBLY BILL NO.31 OF 2013)

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that The Public Procurement and Disposal (Amendment) Bill) (National Assembly Bill No.31 of 2013) be read a Second Time.

Order, Senators! If you want to withdraw, please, do so quietly. If you want to consult, please, consult in low tones because we still have Business in the House.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, The Public Procurement and Disposal (Amendment) Bill) (National Assembly Bill No.31 of 2013) is a Bill that is aimed at guaranteeing, for the first time in the history of our country, access to opportunities for young people, women and persons with disability to do business in terms of the supply of goods and services with the Government at national and county levels. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for a long time, the opportunities to do business with the Government have been available mainly to men; not just men, but to rich men, and most rich men have been old. So, what this Bill is trying to do, number one, is to say that even among the male gender, young people – that is persons aged between 18 and 35 – have not been able to access Government tenders for the supply of goods and services simply because of a rigorous public procurement and disposal legal regime. So, other than men, there are also the women who have also been disadvantaged for many years as well as persons living with disabilities. These three groups are categorized in this Bill as disadvantaged groups. These are groups which have been disadvantaged historically in terms of access to procurement opportunities. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am aware that a key plank of the manifesto of the Jubilee Government was actually to improve access to procurement to young people and persons living with disabilities. I am equally aware that even within the Opposition, this is something that they also support. Therefore, I expect that this is something that should be a bipartisan Bill that is supported by both sides of the House. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this Bill is giving effect to a number of constitutional imperatives or requirements. The first one is Article 27(6) of the Constitution which provides for non-discrimination among other things or among other grounds on the basis of gender. There is also Article 55 of the Constitution which requires the Government to The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to second this Bill which has been moved, very ably, by the Senate Majority Leader, Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki, from the other side. I think he has gone into details of the implications of the amendment both to the principal Act and to the Constitution. The Articles of the Constitution that he referred to state very well that in public procurement, the youth, the disabled, women and children must be taken into account. The Bill provides for the percentages that are necessary. This one requires an Act of Parliament for us to go into detail on how it will be done. I will not repeat what my colleague has said. However, I would like to point out the following. One, indeed, he emphasized on how companies owned by women, youth and the disabled will be identified to the extent that they can be called companies that are for youths or companies that are established by women. I hope that in practice, this will not open doors for what we may refer to as imaginative entrepreneurs. By this, I mean people who will make sure that they get some youths, women and the disabled who have absolutely no interest in a company and provide them with tender documents among other things. They should not get women who have no interests and reap the benefits. Kenyans are very good at this. Probably, this is something that we should be aware of. Due diligence should be done. I do not know whether at the Committee Stage a rider can be added to this effect. However, in our Committee, we did an amendment which more or less said, in the event that some malpractices are discovered, there will be very serious penalties to be faced. I think that amendment was proposed by our Committee. This is quite possible. It can happen and can tarnish the good name of this law which aims at doing social justice and creating equity to those who have been discriminated against in terms of progress in the past. The second issue about this Bill, which is equally important, is that procurement has always been an avenue for primitive accumulation in Government. Procurement officers themselves are personally interested in the outcome of particular tenders and will leak information selectively to particular people bidding for tenders. This selective leakage of information which has been a big problem in Government must, indeed, be avoided, especially where people entering the ring have what I would call “regional innocence.” This is the first time that women and the youth will be introduced to these malpractices that procurement officers are involved in. I do not mean all of them, but most of them have been involved in this dangerous practice. If they are initiated into this malpractice where you get leaked information so that you procure wealth that will set a very bad circle of events to follow. An innocent group of people called the youth, the disabled and women will enter into practices that are not good and which will make the fight against corruption more complicated. That is one thing I wanted to take note of in practice. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to support this Bill very strongly and find a rare opportunity to congratulate the Jubilee Coalition Government for coming up with this very important Bill. I would like to advance the case of the youth and point out that as I support all the clauses in this Amendment Bill, youth do not just have access to procurement simply because of the absence of a law. The law is now there. However, there are other serious challenges that make it difficult for our youth to get an opportunity to get these tenders. High on the list is the issue of national identity cards. If the Government is not going to be proactive in making sure that it avails identity cards to our youth, you will find that this money will be available to the children whose parents are in the middle class or upper class. This is so, especially with regard to the girls. After 18 years, if the girls have not continued with their schooling, they end up getting married. When they move from one village to the other one, then the chief insists that before the girl gets an identity card, she has to go back to her parents and bring their identity card, and come with a letter from the chief of that village telling this other chief that this is, indeed, a bona fide document from the actual parent of this child. This youth will then end up being asked for a tip from the chief where she is married and a tip from the chief where she was born. Then she just gets confused and gives up. It is not rare to find young women in marriage up to the age of 25 who do not have identity cards. I, therefore, urge the Government to make acquisition of identity cards to be easier. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the second challenge that our youth have and which the Government must endeavour to remove is access to information. Newspapers where tenders are advertised by the Government cost money. Newspapers do not circulate very well in the rural areas. Again, I want to take this opportunity to congratulate one newspaper which is doing an experiment; People Daily . People Daily is now giving out its newspaper for free every morning in the hope that they will make their money on advertisements. I want to encourage more newspapers to do that, so that they make their money from advertisements, but the newspapers to be readily available so that our youth can then have access to that particular information. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. This is a progressive Bill because it helps us in the implementation of the Constitution. That is why all of us support it. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, procurement has been a serious problem in this country, especially because corruption flows from it. In fact, if you talk about corruption, you are talking about procurement. Secondly, procurement has been dominated by a few people or clubs in this country, to the exclusion of others; to the extent that the gap between those who make a lot of money and those who are making nothing widens every day. This is not good for societal wellbeing. I think that this Bill is taking us somewhere. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, first, there are no jobs to go round. So, the young people must create jobs themselves. They can only create jobs in this procurement world, which is largely controlled by the Government. In fact, if you look at the total business that goes round in the country, it is either in the national Government, county governments or Government-owned parastatals. So, we must find a way in which we will become inclusive, so that we do not exclude our youth and women forever out of business. So, this is a good proposal that we have here and we should support it. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to say a few things that will make it realistic. The other day, I saw an advert from a county government that was saying: “This one is for everybody; this one is for women; this is one for people with disability; and, this one is for youth.” In other words, there is competition amongst the youth for whatever they have been assigned. I do not know whether that is how this was thought out, but I saw it in one of the adverts. Somebody will have to do a lot of work to check or audit whether the entity that was procuring actually shared out these things according to the provisions of this Act. When it was said popularly “30 per cent” we did not have a way of auditing that. When you now say in law “30 per cent”, then it must be audited. It is not small money. If Kenya were to procure goods and services worth Kshs500 billion, we are talking of setting aside Kshs150 billion worth of goods and services for the youth. These are youth who, probably, have not done business, because they were excluded before. They do not have a track record, bank accounts, title deeds, collateral and experience. Of course, this is a good starting point. However, if you were to audit at the end the year and find that the young people who were given the business did not actually procure those services, because they did not have resources, it would be a sorry thing. I do not know who will be punished for it. In my own county, the county executives or the people popularly known as ”ministers” started this earlier. The young people who were given roads to repair, first of all, did not even have the money to do so. So, you are given a job and a Local Purchase Order (LPO) and told: “Go and supply.” However, you cannot supply because you do not have money and if you go to a bank and you have never banked before, you will not get money. The bank will tell you: “We cannot give you money because we do not know you.” Eventually, of The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Order! Sen. Kajwang, you have not been added any time. You were just being warned that you are in your last five minutes.

Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. In that case, I have some time. If we were to say that any business that goes up to Kshs500,000 where you do not have to go to public tender, you give to the youth, women and persons with disability. That would be the best beginning point and then we progress that way. I have realized that some Government entities do a lot of tendering under Kshs500,000 without going to public tender. That is where the money is if you multiply so many of those little things that are supplied from exercise books, envelopes, papers, cartridges and so on. When I was a Minister, I noticed that the budget for envelopes in the Ministry was about Kshs104 million every year. So, there is a lot of business that can be done with the amount of Kshs500,000 without going to the public tender. We could earmark this for the young people and women, but we should back it with some money. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I know that the Constituencies Development Fund (CDF) has supported some young people, especially fundis . We have to go round it. When we went for public tenders, good fundis who had no money could not do the tenders. So, we had to give tenders to people who are not fundis to come and hire them. Then we realized that it is a waste of money because it is even more expensive. I hope that we will leverage this against some money so that young people who do not have money, but have the skills and can deliver get access to this. Otherwise, we will be making very sharp businessmen to be brokers in the process killing very good progressive arrangement for our young people. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with those many remarks, I beg to support

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Bill. First of all, I would like to congratulate the Member of the National Assembly who came up with this Bill, Hon. Sakaja. I would also like to congratulate both houses for partnering in terms of ensuring that this Bill is moving in the constitutionally required procedure. In the past, many lies have been peddled around that the two Houses are unable to work together or that there is an ulterior motive from any of the two Houses and should be denied Bills. That is far from the truth. If there is anything that demonstrates that a bicameral legislature works, it is the enactment of Bills. The fact that the other day we passed one Bill by Sen. Sang, a Member of this House, and now we are discussing a Bill that was generated by a Member of the National Assembly, demonstrates the fact that our bicameral legislature is working. These two Bills are Private Members’ Bills. Therefore, it is a testimony that the new Constitution is working, bicameral legislation is working The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with or without the Jubilee manifesto, this Bill is a pro-people Bill. This is a Bill that will help the youth of this country regardless of the situation. The Constitution recognizes the youth as a category of our population that requires affirmative action. This Bill is part of, but not the whole of the solution to the issue of our youths. We have a very large number of unemployed and restless young people in this country. One of the problems that we face in this country with our youth is not just whether we can access them to procurement or not. There are more variables than that. This is a good step. I support the Bill to the extent that it curves out the constitutional threshold of helping young people, women and the disadvantaged people like the disabled. In doing so, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Government of the day must do much more than tokenism. If you look at the procurement law of this country, even with this amendment, the procedure of procurement remains a very major hurdle for the young people, women and the disabled to access opportunities. It is one thing to say that one- third will go to women, the youths and to the disabled. It is another issue realizing access to credit. This is a nightmare. This afternoon, we were talking about the obscenity of the level of profits that our banks make at the expense of our economy. The culpability runs back to the Government. Successive governments in this country have forgotten that there are institutions that can help disadvantaged Kenyans. The point that the distinguished Senator for Homa Bay made about the neglect of Government institutions by Government is startling, but true. We have private banks in this country which started operating 15 years ago. However, because of Government tutelage, they are now the largest banks in this country. Sen. Kajwang talked about Post Bank. If you go to North Horr, you will find a post office. I am counting the disadvantaged and neglected areas. If you go to Moyale, The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

He can inform me, Sir.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I want to inform the Senator for Bungoma that when the same Governor is invited for questioning by the Ethics and Anti- Corruption Commission (EACC), he goes to court to prevent the process. That tells you how far that kind of Governor is going.

Thank you for that information. We presume this Governor is innocent until proven guilty. If he has not done anything wrong, why would he fear being questioned about what he is doing and parading himself everywhere? Sometimes the law does not punish people on behalf of others, but sometimes examples must be set because this is going on and on and on. This devolution will come a cropper if we do not get it right. We devolve resources to help the rural people; we devolve resources to help the disadvantaged people. I have said here and I can again say that we have counties like Wajir where children read about tarmack roads in books, where children read about piped water in books. Now we are telling the youth of Wajir that even if we are giving you Kshs3 billion, that is more money than the Wajir County has ever received throughout our 50 years of Independence. That money can change lives; that money can jumpstart lives. So, this law must be fine tuned properly. It is not enough just to say let us give 30 per cent to women, the youth and the disabled. We must have a mechanism of how to finance that process and how to audit that process. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I really respect my leader from Western Kenya, but is he in order to say that the President promised Kshs200 billion, yet the Kshs200 billion that he talked about is the same 30 per cent that we are talking about in procurement? He never promised to give the money to Maendeleo yaWanawake. They were told that they need to build their capacity to access the Kshs200 billion that he has given to women. Is he in order to mislead the country, really, that

was promised the money?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, at least, we all agree that the figure Kshs200 billion was mentioned. How it was mentioned and designed is a matter of detail.

Sen. Wetangula, you have already made a statement that Kshs200 billion will be given to Maendeleo ya Wanawake as an unstructured public entity running public funds. Maybe the information from Sen. Elachi will help you correct that approach and we move on.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I can tell this House without any fear of contradiction that among the women who visited State House, were women who support us and who were elected. They have told us that they were promised that there will be Kshs200 billion for women that Maendeleo yaWanawake will run. Also, an office for each county will be built for Maendeleo yaWanawake and there will be Uwezo funds that will go to them. I do not take that as a decision of the Head of State, because the Constitution says that it has to be in writing. So, I am taking it as populist politics. But I am giving you a very---

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. The Senator needs to substantiate because Maendeleo ya Wanawake is an organization that draws money from donors. It will be very unfortunate for this House to now tell the donors that

is going to be funded by the Government, because they will close their doors. What I have said and clarified is what I heard at State House; that it is time that women built their capacity to be able to access the Kshs230 billion that has been---

What is your point of order?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, is he in order to say that women were promised money even offices, when they were not?

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Whereas Sen. Beatrice was rising on a point of order, is she in order to use that opportunity to further mislead the House that this Government extends money to organizations that are The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Each one of you is making a statement which is not substantiated. Sen. Elachi had requested Sen. Wetangula to substantiate his statements, but he did not do it in the required procedure. So, I will assume that, that one goes.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I want to advise Sen. Elachi that being in a meeting and hearing what is going on are totally unrelated. But let me carry on.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I really hate to disrupt my senior, but is he in order to insist that what is more believable is what he was told by his supporters, against firsthand information from somebody who participated in that meeting as a leader? Could he substantiate beyond just telling us that he was told by his supporters?

So, what are you asking Sen. Wetangula to do?

That he substantiates the statements that he has made about the State House meeting.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, some chips are better left to lie where they fell, otherwise, you will just end up---

Sen. Wetangula, you have been asked to substantiate what you said.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I can. The women from the counties in the west reported and told me, after the meeting, the proceedings and promises that they received. I have no difficulty in women being given Kshs200 billion or even more. I have no problem with that. All I said is that we want structured use of public resources.

Sen. Wetangula, it is now the word of women who are not in this House against your own colleague in the Senate, and supposedly all of them were in State House. So that we move forward and avoid many points of order, I think that you should have noted that you were told by some women, but you are not insisting on it, because you have no information. If it was the way you were told, it would have been wrong, but if it is otherwise--- We need to move forward.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, by doing that we will be sanitizing---

On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

Sen. Wetangula, are you willing to be informed?

Yes, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I would like to inform the Senator for Bungoma and the Senate Minority Leader that under the Witness Protection Act, which we passed in this House, he is not under any obligation to disclose the names of those women, because they must be protected. That is the law. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I did not know that there was fear that the President has now taken all the women. But for the sake of the institution of Maendeleo ya Wanawake, which is an organization that draws funds from donors and has its rules and regulations, I think that it would be very unfair for this House to say that it has now decided to be sponsored by the Government. That is why I want the Senator to substantiate and if he cannot, just withdraw for the sake of the institution of

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it is not the first time that---

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I have for a long time substantiated and sometimes withdrawn things that I said here if I cannot substantiate. But the basis of substantiation is like evidence. If you have seen or heard that is all you can say. If you have heard, been informed or read, that is all you can substantiate, because that is what came to you. If I have heard the debate here, Sen. Elachi heard and Sen. Wetangula also heard. The only difference is that Sen. Elachi heard from State House and Sen. Wetangula heard from some hotel or wherever it was. So, let us just forget about it and proceed with this debate, otherwise, we will never move on.

Let me rule on this matter. The reason---

But I have not responded---

Order, Sen. Wetangula. You have made a statement where Sen. Sang and Sen. Elachi asked you to substantiate. You are unable to do so in the manner in which you are avoiding the issue. I suggest that you apologize and we move forward.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I do not think I have been unable to substantiate. Sen. Elachi’s argument, if you hear me, is that Maendeleo ya Wanawake receives money from donors and so it is not excluded from receiving money from the Government. In fact, if you listen to her, she said the President told women that they can access Kshs200 billion available for various affirmative action issues. That is not donor funds and we are not saying anything different.

Sen. Wetangula, I heard you very clearly. Your argument was very logical that entities that are not provided in law and which are not public entities are going to be given Kshs200 billion to run on behalf of women and this is illegal. The only point here which would have made sense is if the assumption you are using that the President said Kshs200 billion was correct and substantiated. You are making a very good logical argument, the only problem here is that I cannot tell or any other person cannot tell whether the basis of that argument is correct. Since you are unable to substantiate, what is the problem in withdrawing and we move on.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I find it difficult to follow. I said women were promised Kshs200 billion and she confirmed. She also said that they will access it in a manner different from what I said. That kind of--- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

I do not want to prolong this because I also got Sen. Elachi right. She said that the President told women to build the necessary capacity to access Kshs200 billion. That is her position which I cannot also substantiate. The only point I want to ask you is that if you are unable to substantiate, you were not in State House and you have no written directive from the President---

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the women leaders who told me this are impeccable. I can put my neck on the block for them because these are leaders who have led Maendeleo ya Wanawake for the last 20 years. Be that as it may---

Order, Sen. Wetangula.

Let me, for purposes of moving on, presume that my information was incorrect but I will tell you, a hyena told a stone, “even if you do not answer me, you have heard me”.

You have not done what the law says.

I have withdrawn and I will move on, but she has heard me. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I was talking about devolution of corruption. We have pointed out a point in case, the oldest new road in Kenya---

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, even if I am on the Floor. Did you hear what Sen. Beth Mugo said?

What is it she said?

She said “what a lie?” First of all, Senators do not lie.

Sen. Mugo, you are completely out of order. You cannot shout at another Senator while on the Floor. As the Chair, I will not allow altercations across the Floor. You should press the necessary button so that your point of order is heard. Proceed, Sen. Wetangula.

Thank you for allowing me to continue. I urge the Chair to enforce the rules of this House strictly because there are no special Senators in this House.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. It is not acceptable that the nominated Senator for Nairobi has not been in the House when the argument was taking place; she has not---

What is it, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale? We had dispensed that matter.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the point I want to make is that the Senator is grossly out of order. The Chair should find the same and take the necessary action for us to respect the Senate of the Republic of Kenya. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Order, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale! Order! We have passed that issue. Proceed, Sen. Wetangula.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Sen. Mugo is my friend and I want to caution her that next time, we will release a ball on her that will keep her out of this House for some time. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir---

Order, Sen. Wetangula! You are not the Chair, so as much as the rules say what they say, you have no authority to enforce any rules. So, I had already---

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I had already acknowledged that she is my friend.

Well, friendship as it may be, but you---

She is a victim of friendly fire. But we can continue with the debate.

Okay, proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. There is a provision in this Bill for an annual report to be made on how the new dispensation will be fulfilled. I support this but I also agree – I believe it is probably Sen. Kajwang who said that penalties--- You know, when you set a threshold, there must be attendant penalties. If the county or national Government releases a report and we find that, in fact, they did not meet the 30 per cent threshold for youth, women and the disabled; or they release a report and we found that the 30 per cent women, youth and disabled were, in fact, fraudulent characters masquerading as such, there must be some attendant penalty to whoever files the report that will be carrying false information. Giving false information to a public entity is a criminal offence already under the law. So, we will deal with the county government and whoever is responsible for giving that information. For the veracity of this kind of information, we need to give the responsibility to a specific office because if we just say Government, it is too amorphous. We can say the head of the department where procurement is done or the head of the Ministry, or in the county government, the Chief Executive. They must be held to account that this is being done to support the youth of this country. More importantly, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it not enough just to say "persons with disability." This may look laughable, but it is very important. When we are talking about persons with disability, for example, we have my good sister here who definitely needs positive support in many respects. You will go out there and you will find very fraudulent characters – a man with a twisted finger who stands there and says “I am disabled and I want to benefit from this.” We have seen it! Or a man with a squint stands there and says “I am disabled and I must benefit.”

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Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for allowing me to add my voice to this very important Bill. I want to thank the initiator of this Bill because I did not know that fellow Senators without disability understand disability issues. From the way they are contributing to this Bill, today, I have come to understand that they understand the challenges people with disabilities undergo. First, allow me to unpack the word “vulnerable groups” that is commonly used where it means people with disabilities, the youth and persons with disabilities. I want to say that this word makes disability not visible and disadvantages the disabled when it comes to sharing the resources that are set aside for the three groups. When it is a time for the vulnerable groups, what comes at the back of many Kenyans is women and the youth while the disabled are left out. I want to say that first we must unpack this description and make disability a stand-alone entity or group of people whereby if 30 per cent is allocated to the three groups of people, then it must be shared out equally. We should find out how many counties are complying with the rule of law in terms of equitable allocation. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, in Kenya, we have good policies, tools and instruments that allow the protection of people with disabilities, but the service providers or the implementers give us a raw deal. It is only on paper, but practically, it does not work. With this Bill, I am sure that if the law is reinforced, we are going to enable people with disabilities, the youth and women to share resources that are set aside for them equally without favouring a certain group of people. The requirements for tendering should be made flexible and friendly to especially the youth, the women and the disabled. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Order Senator! Tomorrow when we resume, you will have nine minutes to conclude your contribution.

Hon. Senators, it is now time to adjourn the House. The Senate stands adjourned until tomorrow, 16th July, 2014 at 2.30 p.m. The Senate rose at 6.30 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.