(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Hon. Senators, I would like to acknowledge the presence in the Speaker’s Gallery this afternoon, of Mr. Chetan Pandya, Deputy Secretary, visiting us from the Gujarat State Legislature of India. In our usual tradition of receiving and welcoming visitors to Parliament, I extend a warm welcome to him and, on behalf of the Senate and on my own behalf, wish him a fruitful visit. I thank you.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay the following Paper on the table of the Senate today, Wednesday 21st March, 2018. Report of the Auditor-General on the financial Statements of Yata Water and Services Company Limited for the year ended 30th June, 2016.

The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion: THAT, pursuant to Article 230 (2) (b) (vii) of the Constitution and Section 7 (1) and (2) of the Salaries and Remuneration Act, the Senate adopts the Report of the Standing Committee on Finance and Budget on the Senate nominees, on behalf of the county governments, to the position of Member of the Salaries and Remuneration Commission, laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 20th March, 2018.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Hon. Senators, it is now time for Statements. In the past, we have taken a lot of time unduly on Statements. My reading of the Standing Orders is that the purpose of this time is to provide a Statement hour. Therefore, this is ordinarily supposed to be an hour. However, we have ended up taking several hours. I hope that we will make it a Statement hour if not less than that. We will start with the Statement that is being sought by Sen. Kwamboka. COLLAPSE AND CUT-OFF OF A SECTION OF NAROK-MAI MAHIU ROAD

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, pursuant to Standing Order No. 46(2)(b), I rise to seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Roads and Transportation regarding the collapsing and cut-off of a section of the Narok- Mai Mahiu Road due to heavy rains. In the Statement, the Chairperson should:- (1) Explain the short term measures that the Kenya National Highways Authority (KeNHA) has put in place to restore roads when such calamities occur especially on the Narok-Mai Mahiu Road. (2) Explain the long term measures that the KeNHA will put in place including redesigning of major roads as a disaster preparedness measure and not limited to building water barriers to stop flood water from entering our roads. (3) Given the unique terrain of the Maa region, what safety measures did the contractor put in place to ensure that the road does not cave in, considering that this road gets cut off every year during heavy rains. (4) Is KeNHA aware of areas where flood waters have receded hence weakened those roads with an eminent danger of caving in? Thank you. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): I do not see the Chairperson or the Vice Chairperson of the Committee on Roads and Transportation. Can Sen. Lelegwe give us an undertaking?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am a Member of that Committee. We had a meeting today where we invited the Cabinet Secretary next week on Thursday and KeNHA to shed light on issues of the heavy rains and its effects on our infrastructure. I am now made aware that there is also a Statement before the House. We are going to give a response in the next two weeks.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Is two weeks okay, Sen. Kwamboka?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, yes, it is.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): It is so directed. That is about all the Statements to be sought. Let us move to Statements to be issued. Let us start with the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Lands, Environment and natural Resources. HUMAN-WILDLIFE CONFLICT AND LIVESTOCK PREDATION IN WAJIR COUNTY

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Chairperson is not around but we need some time to issue the Statement.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Is the Statement ready?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Statement is not ready but hopefully, it will be ready by next week.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Thank you. Resume your seat, Sen. Boy. Sen. (Dr.) Ali, that was your request. Are you comfortable with two weeks?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not comfortable but I accept because I have no alternative.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): So ordered.

Next Statement IRREGULAR REGISTRATION AND PROVISION OF FACILITIES IN PRIMARY AND SECONDARY SCHOOLS

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Let us get a response from the Chairperson of the Committee on Education.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have received a response from the Ministry on the other Statements but I have been following up on this one but they told me that it will be ready on Tuesday.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Thank you Sen. (Dr.) Lang’at. Sen. (Dr.) Milgo, is Tuesday next week alright? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Tuesday is alright. However, part of that Statement was requesting for the distribution of books and you will realize that there is a timeline in terms of syllabus coverage. I am sure that the Chairperson will expedite on this so that the Statement is brought on Tuesday.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): It is ordered that the Statement be strictly brought on Tuesday.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have a response on the publication and distribution of books and it will come later.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Alright Chairman. The Statement should be ready on Tuesday, nevertheless.

The next Statement is Statement no. (c). Where is the Chairperson or the Vice Chairperson of the Committee on Health? DISAPPEARANCE OF PATIENT LEMELOI SHONKO FROM COPTIC HOSPITAL

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Statement is not yet ready. We are going for induction this weekend. Hopefully, by Tuesday next week we shall have the Statement.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Sen. Mpaayei is not in the House but it is ordered that the Statement should be ready on Tuesday next week.

The next Statement is Statement no. (d). Where is the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on National Security, Defence and Foreign Relations? RAID BY ARMED BANDITS IN SUYIAN AREA, SAMBURU NORTH CONSTITUENCY

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have the response.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Have you shared the response with Sen. Lelegwe.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Chairperson of the Committee shared it, if I am not wrong.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Very well. Have you looked at the response, Sen. Lelegwe?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, yes, I have.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Sen. Sakaja, I direct that you summarize your answer if the Senator who requested the Statement has seen it. The full document will be tabled in the House. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, when we discussed it the first time in the House, I immediately invited the Senator of Samburu to a meeting with the Inspector General of Police and we started working on it immediately. However, some of the things that have been done there are not satisfactory to the Senator but the response is here. The Government is aware that there was a raid in Suyian area of Elbarta ward, Samburu North Constituency. They have listed the number of livestock stolen during the raid and the people who were fatally injured as Ldapon Lesiamito and Lmeretuni Lepoora, both of them Samburu males. There is also a list of another three who were injured and the assertion that the raid was a revenge mission by Turkana raiders following three recent incidence where Lokorach Nakholori aged 45 years and Karing Chuma aged 14 years were killed by Samburu morans and 45 camels stolen. The National Government and the county government are offering relief assistance to the residents through the National Cereals and Produce Board (NCPB). By that time, they had distributed 720 metric tonnes of maize and 300 metric tonnes of cooking oil. The report of the attack was made at Suyian Administration Police camp on 2nd February, 2018, which is ten kilometres from the area. The Administration Police at Suyian called for reinforcement from Marti Police Station and organized to track the stolen livestock. The officers followed the hoofmarks which were headed towards Suguta valley. Pursuant to the attack the Police Case File listed in the response was opened and is pending under investigations. The police have so far recovered 92 head of cattle and 440 goats and sheep belonging to the Samburu. In efforts to recover the livestock stolen, the Government is engaging Turkana elders at Marti, Charda and Soito Manyattas, whose youths are believed to be involved in the raid and are now hiding in Suguta valley. The police have also recovered 25 camels stolen from the Turkana by Samburu morans at Masikita area and arrested four people. The four were charged with the offence of stealing stock and the Section of the Penal Code is listed and the alternative charge of handling stolen property. The case is pending before court. Finally, peace initiatives between the Turkana and Samburu are ongoing in the area. The Government will arrest and charge anybody culpable appropriately. That is from the Cabinet Secretary (CS) but I must say that this answer would naturally not be completely satisfactory to the Senator. That is why we are inviting him and many other Senators from these cattle rustling areas to join the Committee as we pursue a holistic and comprehensive response to the problem of cattle rustling in our country.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Do you have anything to say, Sen. Lelegwe?

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I appreciate the response by the Chairperson. He has noted that this response is not satisfactory particularly to me and the House because the issues contained in the Statement are issues that we normally hear. Those are the issues of Suguta valley that the Government puts as an excuse for it not to respond or for it not to act whenever such raids happen in Samburu. When you look at the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Order, Senator. This is not an opportunity to analyse what the Chairperson has said. You have pointed out and you have concurred with the Chairperson that the answer is unsatisfactory and there is further work to be done around it. That is all. Order Senators! we have 26 Statements to be issued this afternoon within the Statement Hour. I keep on repeating “Statement Hour” for it is an hour. It is not Statement day or Statement Week, so I kindly request that all the Committee Chairpersons, who are issuing Statements and those who had requested for the Statements, to be as brief as possible so that we can make the best use of our time this afternoon.

On a point of order Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): What is it, Sen. Lelegwe?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I really concur with your direction on the issue of the Statement as stated by the Chairperson of the Committee on National Security, Defence and Foreign Relations. I have not heard a direction from you as to whether the Statement has been directed back to the Committee.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Sen. Sakaja, do you want to say something on that issue?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, kindly allow me to clarify what I had said. I have said that in so far as this specific situation is concerned, I think that this is the best response that we can get for we will not get anything more. What I am talking about, and I think the Senate Majority Leader mentioned it sometimes back when this Statement was requested, is the need for some work to be done, together with the Executive,on the issue of cattle rustling. There is no comprehensive response that you can get on this matter whether it is on Samburu, Elgeyo Marakwet or Baringo. It has been like that for years hence the reason as to why we want to put a stop to these issues by addressing the matter conclusively together with the Senators, Members of the National Assembly and the governors from the affected areas. I am not saying that there will be a further response to this Statement.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): I hear you. Is it your position that you have convened a meeting between the Executive and the relevant Senators, including Sen. Lelegwe?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is something that we are working on as a Committee, we will communicate the dates.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Does that mean that there is nothing concrete up to now?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have agreed as a Committee that we are doing that including bringing a legislation. It is just a matter of agreeing on the dates on when to meet the Executive, then we will communicate to the Senators.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Sen. Lelegwe, the Chairperson is saying that is the best he would have got. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I totally agree that we need a comprehensive response to cattle rusting in Kenya. Indeed cattle rustling has been going on for so many years now, probably more than 50 years. However, this was a specific issue that was sought in this Statement of the raid that took place on 1st February, 2018, where thousands of livestock were lost. I do not agree with the Chairperson when he says that this is satisfactory when we have not recovered the stolen livestock. He has informed the House that they have only recovered 92 cattle out of 1400 that were stolen and 400 goats out of the 1200 that were stolen. Therefore, I do not think that the answer is satisfactory. It is not satisfactory when the Chairperson says that the Government has provided relief food. The relief food that is supplied by the County Government of Samburu is for those people affected by drought and not specifically to the victims of that specific raid.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Order Senator, be brief. Please resume your seat. You are saying that the answer is not satisfactory. Can you raise supplementary questions or a specific issue that you will want the Chairperson to further inquire from the Government? Please, be as brief as possible.

Thank you Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The specific question that I need to raise as a supplementary question is that I want the CS to report when they are going to recover the livestock that are yet to be recovered. They should also supply relief assistance to the families that were affected by the raid of 1st February, 2018.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, what my good friend, Sen. Lelegwe, is asking for is in the response. The response says that they are still trying to recover the rest. There cannot be a definite date of when it will be recovered. The response says that they have given relief food and it is an ongoing process. I think you need to rule on this. When we seek a Statement on what is being done, what is brought to the House is the fact of what is going on. The Statement does not become comprehensive or satisfactory when the problem has ended. The Statement can allude to the fact that this issue is still being battled, but these are the facts as at the moment the Statement has been sought. So, the conclusion of the problems there is what will then give us a complete statement. Finally, I went out of my way to hold the Senator’s hand and go to the Inspector General (IG) of Police to follow up on the operation as it is going on. So, the Statement will not bring back the cows. It is the actions that we take now with the Administration Police (AP) and the National Police Service on the ground that solves the matter.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Order, Senator! I direct that you engage the Ministry a little more and report to this House, by Thursday next week, any further progress that the Government will have made on that matter. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will do that.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Thank you. The next one is Statement (e).

Order, Sen. Seneta! You cannot raise a point of order in an out of order manner. The Chairperson of the Standing Committee on National Security, Defence and Foreign Relation, proceed to Statement (e). DELAYS IN PROCESSING OF BIRTH CERTIFICATES

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Statement (e) was requested by Sen. Cherargei.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Is it ready?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is ready, but the Senator is not in the House. I just want to confirm if I can give the Statement if he is not in the House.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): For today, in order to instil a bit of discipline in the Senators who request for statements, and also considering that we have 26 Statements, if Sen. Cherargei is not here, we will defer it to tomorrow.

The next Statement is still by the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on National Security, Defence and Foreign Relation. ONGOING RECRUITMENT EXERCISE BY KDF

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, when you defer the Statement, you are not punishing the person who is not here. You are punishing the person who is here and who is ready to respond to the Statement.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Order, Senator! How are you being punished? You are supposed to be in the House on a daily basis.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, what it does is that the other statements requested by Members that are below the list will never be reached, yet they are here.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Order, Senator! Let us see how much progress we will make within the Statements Hour.

The next statement is Statement (g). The Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Education, is the Statement ready?

The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Order, Chairperson! I am told that Sen. Chebeni is away with the permission of the Chair. Subject to the progress we will make in Statements Hour and because Sen. Chebeni is not here, we will defer it. However, if we make good progress, we will come back to it. Hold your horses, Chairperson and thank you for your effort. Your body language tells me that you are ready to issue the Statement.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am ready, but because she is not here, we can push it ahead.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Very well.

The next Statement is by the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Energy. The Vice-Chairperson or any Member of the Committee can proceed. Yes, Sen. Seneta. COMPENSATION FOR PERSONS AFFECTED BY KETRACO HIGH VOLTAGE POWER LINE PROJECT

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the response is not yet ready.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): When will it be ready?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in a week’s time; on Tuesday next week.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Tuesday next week. What is it, Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr.?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the good Senator is not giving the correct information. I have the Statement; I have had it for the last seven days.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Order, Senator! How many Committees on Energy do we have? I thought we have one Committee. Now, the Statement is ready according to Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. What do you have to say, Sen. Seneta?

Just withdraw.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Sen. Seneta, never mind. Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., are you the one who asked for the Statement?

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Okay. Who is to issue the Statement now?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is the Chairperson, but I want to help the House.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Please do.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wanted to help the House in view of your directions; to say that I have a very comprehensive Statement, which is The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Proceed accordingly. The next Statement is by the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on National Security, Defence and Foreign Relation. Is it ready? HARASSMENT OF OPPOSITION LEADERS

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. However, since the famous handshake, I am not sure whether this Statement needs to be responded to, unless the person who asked for it is still stuck there. But I have the answer, which I can give.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): In any case, the Member who asked the question is not here. I do not want to say anything further than that.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Res ipsa loquitur ; the facts speak for themselves. What is it, Sen. Linturi?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just want to seek a clarification. The tradition in the other Chamber, where I used to---

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Order, Senator! What did you say about the tradition?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Parliamentary tradition has been that once a statement is requested in the House, it becomes the property for the House. It can never be individual because, probably, the other Members made interjections when the statement was sought. I seek your guidance on the way we need to proceed. Since the Chairperson has the Statement and it may attract interest from other Members, will it not be prudent for him to just give it? In the event that the person who requested for the Statement needs to refer to it, he may consult the answer so that we can also benefit from the statement being given.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Very well. Sen. Linturi, it is true that the Statement is the property of the House and not the Senator who requested for it. However, I have exercised my discretion under Standing Order 39 for the convenience of the Senate. This is because, this afternoon, we have 26 statements to be issued within the Statements Hour. I have used that discretion to rule that the Statements that were requested by Senators who are not here can be deferred to tomorrow, so that we see if we can make progress. However, ordinarily, were it not for the fact that we have so many statements today, the statement would have proceeded in the manner in which you have highlighted. Order, Senators! The next Statement is by the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Roads and Transport regarding accidents on the Nakuru-Eldoret Highway. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the statement is not ready. It will be ready on Tuesday, next week

(Sen.(Prof.) Kindiki): Sen. Naomi Masitsa Shiyonga, is Tuesday okay with you?

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): It is agreeable; it is so ordered. We move on to the Statement (K) to be issued by the Chairperson, Standing Committee on Energy. It was requested by Sen. Enock Wambua who is here. Is it ready? COAL EXPLORATION IN MUI BASIN, KITUI COUNTY

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): What is it, Sen. Wambua?

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I requested for the statement, but I do not have a copy of its response. The Chairperson says he is ready to respond to it.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Order, Senator! Chairperson, the tradition is that you share the response in advance with the Senator who had requested it. Secondly, we have set a new tradition that you summarize it. That is the reason why it should be shared with the Senator who requested it first. You can share it now. Once you make progress, we will come back to it.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): What is it, Sen. (Eng.) Maina?

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want to thank Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. because I was held up in traffic, but he lived to our honour and said he is satisfied with what I discussed with him. The question as to when to give the questioner a copy of the response has been asked many times in this House. Suffice it to say the answer is given to the questioner through the normal parliamentary process. However, I would like your guidance on whether it is the duty of the Committee Chairperson to personally look for the Senators who sought statements and to hand them the responses. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Order, Sen. (Eng.) Maina! It is in your interest to share the response with the person who had requested for it. Without much ado, why do you not share it? We will we revisit it, if time allows. Let us move on to the next Statement? The Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Energy has to issue another Statement.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir!

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Sen. Wambua, is it a different question?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have just received the one I had asked for.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Very well. Is that Statement (K)?

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Let us go to Statement (L) first to be issued by the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations. Proceed, Sen. Sakaja.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have the response.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Very well. Is Sen. Farhiya in the Chamber?

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Please, summarize for us in your usual style. CLAN CLASHES AND TERROR ATTACKS IN WAJIR COUNTY

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, much obliged and thank you for taking note of the style. First, I was asked to respond about the number of clan clashes that have occurred within the past year in Wajir County. The list starts from No.1, on 14th January, 2016 in Malkaguf to No.18 on 17th February, 2018 at Ajawa Village, within Wajir North Sub- County. The clashes have been triggered by boundary disputes between Wajir West and Eldas Sub-Counties and between Eldas and Buna Sub-counties, scramble for water and pasture due to persistent drought and political differences between various clans. There is an assertion that terrorists are not involved in any of the clan clashes in Wajir County. The good Senator asked for a list of those injured or killed as a result of the clashes. The list of those who have died is from No.1 to 17. She has a copy of the names. They will be on the record of the House. Secondly, there is a list of 11 injured persons, including both male and female, Administrative Police (AP) officers and members of the public. The Senator has that list as well. The clan militia could be getting arms from the neighbouring Republic of Somalia and Ethiopia. It is illegal to hold a firearm without a licence under the Firearm Act CAP. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Are you okay with that, Sen. Fardiya.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you can use ‘ furahiya ’ because that is what it means.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Is that official?

No. I am just translating. I had asked, in the statement, the number of the people who died in early February after the subsequent visit by the CS. In that meeting, it emerged that 57 people died in the northern region of Eldas. However, this statement only states 17. On 5th January, 2018, there are five people who died. I can read their names if you allow me.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): What is the issue that you want the Chairperson to address?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I feel that we are being taken for a ride because---

(Sen.(Prof.) Kindiki): So, you are not satisfied with the Chairperson’s answer?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I partly appreciate all the work they have done, but there are some parts that I am not happy with. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen.(Prof.) Kindiki): What would you in particular, want the Chairperson to do?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, first of all, why are they taking long to finalise an investigation that has been pending since early 2016?

(Sen.(Prof.) Kindiki): Order, Senator! I direct that you list down the issues that you want the Chairperson to further clarify. I also direct that the clarification be given on Tuesday, next week. That way, you will communicate to the Chairperson and we will save on time and you will get whatever you want. It is so ordered. We move on to the next statement. ALLEGED KILLING OF DEMONSTRATORS IN AHERO TOWN, KISUMU COUNTY

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Where is the Chairperson of National Security, Defence and Foreign Relations? Sen. Sakaja, are you ready with that Statement? Is Sen. Outa here? Yes, I can see him in his traditional sitting place which he inherited from former Senator, now Gov. (Prof.) Anyang-Nyong’o. Are you ready, Sen. Sakaja?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not seem to have this particular response with me.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): When can the House have it?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will issue it on Thursday, tomorrow. I am sure it is within the precincts of the House.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Sen. Outa, is tomorrow okay?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, yes.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Thank you. So, ordered.

EMPLOYMENT REQUIREMENTS FOR FRESH GRADUATES Where is the Chairperson of the Committee on Labour and Social Welfare?

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Are you the same man, Senator and Chairperson?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is why I am called the Super Senator.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): That is not an official title. Is the Statement ready?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have discussed this issue with the good Senator for Wajir County who asked the question and we agreed to bring it later. Remember, I had invited Members as well as Sen. Prengei to attend our induction, where we would discuss with thestakeholders in the Ministry but they were unable to make it. So, we had to --- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): So, it is ready?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is not ready; we will get it next Thursday.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Next Thursday? So, how super is that now?

This is because you alleged that you are super Chairperson and Senator but I see nothing super. It is so ordered.

RAMPANT FIRE OUTBREAKS IN INFORMAL SETTLEMENTS OF NAIROBI CITY COUNTY The Chairperson of the Committee on National Security, Defence and Foreign Relations is not here. Sen. Sakaja, today is your day. Is the Statement ready? I can see Sen. Kwamboka, who requested for the Statement is here.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Statement is ready.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): So, could you again, summarise it for us as you have done previously? Have you shared it?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the good Senator, a Member of the Nairobi Delegation has it. She has had it for a while.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Sen. Kwamboka, can the Chairperson proceed? Have you studied the Statement?

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Very well. Sen. Sakaja, proceed rapidly, please.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, allow me to read it after the next one because I cannot find it here but I have it.

It is actually being brought to me. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I plead with the office of the Serjeant-at-Arms not to touch what we leave in the lockers because we normally have our statements in the places we sit. I will give a response very quickly. There is an attachment there on the details of the fires that have erupted in Nairobi City County. In the last five years, there have been 151 fire outbreaks in Nairobi City The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Thank you, Sen. Sakaja. Sen. Kwamboka, Sen. Sakaja has already committed himself on the way forward. I hope you agree. Do you?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Thank you. Good progress so far. The next Statement is the one by the Chairperson of the Committee on Land, Environment and Natural Resources. STATUS OF LAND OWNED BY ADC IN LAIKIPIA COUNTY Could we have the Chairperson or Vice Chairperson? Sen. Ndwiga, proceed.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Chairperson of the Committee is out of the country. I request that we give the answer next week.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Is the Statement ready?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have no idea. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Are you a Member of that Committee?

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Any other Member who has an idea?

Very well. Where is Sen. Olekina? I direct that the Statement be issued on Tuesday. So, ordered.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Sen. Sakaja, is the Statement ready?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Statement is ready but the ----

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): You are doing very well this afternoon, Senator.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am defending in a super manner. I cannot see the Senator who asked for it in the House.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): So, it suffers the same fate in the absence of Sen. Pareno.

INVASION AND ILLEGAL SUB-DIVISION OF KALRO LAND Could we have the Chairperson of the Committee Land, Environment and Natural Resources? Same fate, same facts, same circumstances. I direct Statement “r” be issued on Tuesday.

The next Statement suffers the same fate because the parties appear to be the same – the Chairperson of the Committee on Land, Environment and Natural Resources and Sen. Olekina. ALLEGED OUTSTANDING LAND DISPUTE BETWEEN TAITA SISAL ESTATE AND THE LOCAL COMMUNITY

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Boy Issa Juma.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Sorry. Is it Boy Issa Juma?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, yes. The Statement is not ready and the Chairperson is also not here.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): So, we direct that it be issued on Tuesday?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is okay.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): So, ordered.

DESTRUCTION OF FORESTS IN KENYA The Chairperson and the Vice Chairperson are not here. Before we hear from Sen. (Eng.) Maina, is any Member of that Committee aware whether we have the Statement? Sen. Ndwiga, proceed.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have no idea.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): What do you have?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am a Member of the Committee but I do not know if we have the answers or not.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Senator, you better stop there because you will stand the risk of being declared “the Senator with no idea”. That information is noted. This statement was requested by the Senator for Nyeri. Sen. (Eng.) Maina, is the Statement ready?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is not ready.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Can you indulge the Chairperson to bring that Statement on Tuesday?

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Thank you, Senator. It is so ordered.

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Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I cannot see Sen. Loitiptip.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Sen. Loitiptip is away with permission

Okay, Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir. We can do it when he is back.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Okay, on Tuesday. It is so ordered.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Statement on Ahero Sub-County has resurfaced and the Senator is going through it. If we finish it---

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Hold on. We do not have a lot of time. We are still within the Statement hour. Let us see whether time allows. The next Statement is by the Chair of Committee on Roads and Transport. I can see Sen. (Rev.) Nomi Waqo is here. She is the one who had requested for that Statement. Chairperson, Vice chairperson or a Member of the Committee on Roads and Transport, is that Statement ready? Proceed, Sen. Lelegwe. BENEFITS OF THE STANDARD GAUGE RAILWAY

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Statement is not ready and we request that we be given more time so that we---

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Up to when, Sen. Lelegwe?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, up to Wednesday next week.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Proceed, Sen. (Rev.) Waqo

It is okay, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Thank you.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): It is so ordered.

The next Statement is by the Chair of the Committee on Lands, Environment and Natural Resources. It suffers the fate that the other Statements attributable to that Committee. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Statement is not ready.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): When will it be ready?

Wednesday next week, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Sen. Mwaruma, are you able to indulge the Chairperson up to Wednesday next week?

It is okay, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): It is so ordered. What is it Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr.?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it has been the practice of this House that where a Committee does not answer the question and in the exceptional circumstances where Sen. Ndwiga has no idea, you direct the Senate Majority Leader to look for that Statement and present it. That has been the tradition. The ‘no idea’ Statement is new.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Order, Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr.! The Senate Majority Leader is invoked when the chairperson, for lack of a better word, is in distress; when the chairperson is unable to issue a Statement for reasons beyond the Chairperson’s ability. We invoke the Senate Majority Leader to buckstop the chairpersons. The current situation about the Committee on Lands, Environment and Natural Resources is that the Chairperson is away and hopefully he should be back next week. In any case, the Senators who had requested for those Statements are not complaining. Some are not even here. Those who are here are not complaining. Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., you did not cite any particular Standing Order. The next Statement is (z) and it will suffer the same consequences because it is attributable to the Committee on Lands, Environment and Natural Resources. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Thank you for starting with the name Kirinyaga. It is the original name of Mt. Kenya. I just want to share with my friend, Sen. Ndwiga on this question regarding the deforestation in this country. In his answer which he has said he can bring next week, I would wish him to go into the serious issue that we have witnessed in this country of cutting down trees and what we are going to do right away. There are measures which are being done, but this matter is more or less becoming national because of the importance of this matter in this country. Consequently, I wish that the question comes back on Wednesday for him to have more time.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Proceed, Sen. Ndwiga.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we will give the Statement on Tuesday. At least I have an idea that the Chairperson will be back.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Congratulations, Sen. Ndwiga, finally. Very well. Senators, we have a few minutes. I will use those few minutes of the Statement hour which we have used so well. I hope we can be doing this as a tradition. The Statements should run between 2.30 p.m. to 3.30 p.m. or thereabout so that we balance between Statements and other businesses of the House which are equally important. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just received the response from the Senator for Nyeri County right now. It is a fairly detailed Statement. I will need time to go through it.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): I direct that the Statement be issued tomorrow.

What is it Sen. (Eng.) Maina?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have discussed this question with the particular Senator asking this question twice or thrice. I would wish to sit down with him even before coming to the House and see his concerns so that we get rid of this question once and for all.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Why should you not do that? It is now an order that you sit down with the Senator for Kitui County. The last one is the Statement by the Chairperson of the Committee on National Security, Defense and Foreign Relations which was requested by Sen. Outa. I am told that the Statement is now here. ALLEGED KILLING OF DEMONSTRATORS IN AHERO TOWN, KISUMU COUNTY Sen. Outa, have you gone through the Statement?

Yes, Mr. Deputy, Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Can the Chairperson proceed to summarize the Statement?

He can, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Proceed, Chairperson, in your usual style.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, better than the usual style. This is a matter regarding killings of demonstrators in Ahero, Kisumu County. It is a matter that happed in respect to the post-election skirmishes that we had. I have discussed with the Senator for Kisumu County. There are only three city Senators in this House. We have agreed that for the sake and in the spirit of reconciliation that was signaled by the handshake of His Excellency Uhuru Kenyatta and His Excellency Raila Odinga, we can consolidate this with the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Is that the position, Sen. Outa?

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I am also a Member of the Senate Committee on National Security, Defence and Foreign Relations. We had agreed with the Chairperson that we will not only pursue this for the people who were killed in Ahero, but in the entire nation. This is because that ‘golden handshake’ must mean something for people who lost their lives and property. Therefore, we want to give His Excellency President Uhuru Kenyatta and His Excellency Raila Amolo Odinga this chance to bring the country together. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Very well. Order Senators. I have a communication to make regarding a visiting delegation from Kivuthini Secondary School in Makueni County.

Order Senators! Order! The Senator of Makueni County should be more interested in order so that the Communication can be issued in extenso.

I am most obliged, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Hon. Senators, I would like to acknowledge the presence in the Public Gallery this afternoon of visiting students and teachers from Kivuthini Secondary School, in Makueni County. In our usual tradition of receiving and welcoming visitors to Parliament, I extend a warm welcome to them and on behalf of the Senate and on my own behalf, wish them a fruitful visit. I thank you.

Hon. Senators, I have another communication regarding a message from the National Assembly relating to the passage of the Division of Revenue Bill (National Assembly Bill No.7 of 2018). The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): The Mover was to reply. Where is the Senate Majority Leader?

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I thank my colleagues for their immense contributions to this Bill. I have listened and noted the concerns raised. I have particularly appreciated the contributions of Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., who believes that my Bill was borrowed word for word by the Supreme Court of Kenya in their advisory opinion. In essence, this is an endorsement of the Bill. I do not want to doubt whether the Judges at the court borrowed, or whether we were of the same mind. Everybody knows that the Bill was in the public domain more than three months before the decision of the Supreme Court of Kenya came out. Therefore, there is a possibility that we borrowed from each other. If not, it is even better that my thinking is synonymous to that of the Judges of the court.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that chapter on the replacement of deputy governors has received validation at the highest office. However, I agree with Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. that there is a trend that is developing in the courts. The Constitution makes it clear that Judges must purposively interpret the Constitution as a living document so as to give it meaning and to develop it. I do not think this purposive interpretation of the Constitution, or what the Americans call the ‘living tree approach,’ can extend to a situation of outright law making by the Bench. This is where you find a Judge sitting to draft the period within which a Bill or a Motion should remain in a county assembly; up to a point where they say 14 or 60 days. That will be stretching the provisions on interpretation of the Constitution too far and encroaching on the responsibilities of Parliament. That is why this Bill does not agree with the 60 days proposed by the Supreme Court of Kenya. The motion should remain within 14 days in the county assembly before approval. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the chapter on County Public Service Boards (CPSBs) was the work of our Committee in the last Parliament. There was a desire that the CPSBs must be made as independent as possible from Executive interference. In the Bill, we are proposing that a selection panel for the members of the CPSB and the county secretary should contain persons nominated by the Law Society of Kenya (LSK), the Institute of Certified Public Accountants of Kenya (ICPAK) and so on, and so forth. Having relooked at it, it is now clear that this will create a terrible bureaucracy. This is because in a situation where, for example, the county of Mandera wants to replace their CPSB members, they have to write to the LSK in Nairobi to nominate someone to go and sit there. Even if that person is within Mandera, in my view it is creating unnecessary bureaucracy. I am proposing that, at the Committee Stage, that chapter be amended accordingly. The Act now allows the governor to nominate the selection panel but, perhaps he should be guided that the panel should include an advocate of the High Court, an accountant and an expert in human resource matters. The governors can then appoint The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki: Whose attention are you looking for; mine or the Senators’?

I am requesting that I be given ample time to present my reply.

(Sen.(Prof.) Kindiki): Have you been prevented?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir I am listening to a very serious conversation behind me; I cannot concentrate.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki: Then it is not my attention that you are looking for. What you are looking for is my direction that there be order. Order Senators!

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I not only needed your attention, but also the Senators. There is a phenomenon that is growing. My fear is that the precedent being set by the second tier of governors, for lack of a better word – those who succeeded the founding governors--- The idea of going to the counties and beginning to sack the public servants, from the CSPB and all other institutions, creates a very bad precedent. I hope the Committee Chaired by---

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(Sen. Prof.) Kindiki): Order! Order, Sen. (Eng.) Mahamud! You are an experienced legislator. I do not want to describe what I am seeing. Sen. Cherargei, this is the Senate; I do not want to say what it is not.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, although Sen. (Eng.) Mahamud is experienced, he is new in this House. Am I in order to say that, perhaps, he needs further induction? That is on a light note.

Since his Motion is next, he could be consulting on it. This is something that I hope the Committee on Labour and Social Welfare, chaired by Sen. Sakaja can look at. If you visit many counties where new governors took office, there are a lot of complaints about how public servants are being treated at the county level. We need to ask ourselves whether we are achieving the independence that was desired in the CPSB, so that it can run normally. Even with the bureaucracy that comes with political changes, it should remain to be lean and the county public servants are protected from the changes that have occurred in the political circle. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in this Bill we have detailed prescriptions on how equity should be achieved in a county. It also provides for how equitable distribution of jobs and protection of communities that are less than 30 per cent of the county will be achieved. The Bill is very detailed on that issue. Sen Sakaja spoke to the issue of independence of the speaker’s office and the requirement that it should remain 75 per cent. Even in this House the Speaker can only be removed by a two-thirds majority. Thus, we are trying to equalise the tradition and the practice in the Commonwealth on the standards of protection of the office of the speaker. I understand that in the counties, speakers and deputy speakers can easily be removed on very flimsy grounds. The standards in the last term were very low. By this time in the last term, the discussion around impeachment of governors was very high. I can see that the impeachment of governors and removal of speakers has been slowed. We will monitor this phenomenon in the next one year. It could be because governors have become more careful. In fact, let me bring to the attention of this House a very important decision that was made by the Supreme Court. It said that courts must not interfere with the processes of impeachment when they are still running. It was in the case of Gov. Wambora. That was the same argument we made on the Floor of this House and some characters in the media were castigating us. I do not want to say that one of us was there and is now sitting in this House. We are being told that if you criticise a decision of the court outside the court, that is contempt because of ignorance. When I was teaching at the University it was always about a critique of decisions of courts of 1940s. We would criticise from Lord Denning to the current judges and there is nothing wrong with that. You would either criticise by writing an article in a revered journal, teaching in class or by a discourse in public space. Those of us who were here criticised decisions of the court in how they were being misused to put a ground lock on a political process. I kept saying here that in the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): It is so ordered. The Senate Majority Leader, there is a difference between moving a Motion and replying to the Motion. As a responsible Member of the House, I will urge you, your counterpart the Senate Minority Leader and any other Senator as your Chair, that even when you have a full hour, sometimes, you can help the House to make progress and avoid backlog of business by trying to use less time. You are, of course, entitled to the minutes as provided for in the Standing Orders. However, sometimes you can forego your entitlement for the greater good of the House. The Senate Majority Leader, I have not said you have misused your time.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): What is it, Senate Majority Leader?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there has been conflicting rulings on what to say when replying to a Motion. Sometimes at the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Order, the Senate Majority Leader! There is no conflict at all. I made the remark that there is a difference between moving a Motion and replying to it in terms of time you take. You are expected to take more time when moving, but when you are replying you can summarise and highlight some salient points. In terms of what you do, you move at the beginning and you move at the end.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): What is it, Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr.?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have been listening to the conversation between yourself and the Senate Majority Leader ---

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Order! Senator, it is not a conversation. These are proceedings of the House.

Sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. From the directions you have been giving to the Senate Majority Leader, will I be in order to say that you need to induct him to his seat?

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): You would be out of order, Senator, because it is not in the Standing Orders to induct the Senate Majority Leader.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): What is it, Senate Majority Leader?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, let it be known because the country is watching--- According to the standing orders, I am entitled to use 60 minutes to move this Motion and 30 minutes to reply to it. However, you said, you were requesting that in situations where we have a lot of business on the Order Paper, I be considerate and use less time. However, that does not mean I do not know that I am entitled to 60 minutes to move a Motion and 30 minutes to reply to it.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Very well, the Senate Majority Leader. My earlier ruling still that there is no standing order requiring the Senate Majority Leader to be inducted still stands.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): What is it, Sen. Wako with a “K”?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, will I be in order, taking in to account the directives that you have just given, to propose to the Procedure and Rules Committee to consider reducing the time for replying to a Motion to 20 minutes rather than half an hour so that it is in tandem with what you have ruled? However, we leave the moving time of a Motion to one hour because there are some Bills that require a whole hour to move. Will I be in order? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): You will be in order, but you know what you are supposed to do beyond what you have proposed. Please, proceed accordingly. Next order!

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): The Senate Majority Leader, that order is subject to a division. Do we have the requisite numbers to take division or can we defer it in our usual tradition?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I request it be deferred for two reasons. First, we cannot ascertain exactly whether we have the requisite number. Secondly, we allow for consultation between the majority and minority sides so that we have a unanimous decision when we vote. I request that we defer that order to tomorrow, so that I can consult with my colleague in the minority side, taking into consideration the changes that occurred in their leadership.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): The second reason, Senate Majority Leader, has to be your reason. The first one is inelegant. It is not true to say we cannot ascertain the number. We can ascertain it. However, if your argument is that you need to consult, maybe I can listen to that. Therefore, can you abandon the first reason?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, when I said I was not sure of the numbers, someone was doing the headcount. We have 21 delegations. There is nothing in the Standing Orders which says we cannot vote if we have 21 delegations. However, in the tradition of this House, it will be good if we can vote when we have enough delegations. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it was you who ruled in this House that it will be necessary for the minority and majority sides to consult. I promised yesterday that I will be consulting with the new Senate Minority Leader. So, if you give me time because he is still settling in the office, I will consult with him, together with the Minority Whip and the minority side team so that by tomorrow we will be ready to put it to vote.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): That is so ordered.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): What is it, Sen. Zani? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Will I be in order to confirm what the voting status is for nominated Senators in this House? We are Members of delegations. In the Eleventh Parliament, we had the process of letters being done that would allow for votes to take place. Now we want to ascertain the number of votes from counties, are we able to do that the way we did it in the Eleventh Parliament? Has that process happened and has it been dispensed with?

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Thank you, Sen. Zani. The rules are clear about voting. The information that has been received is in consonance with the rules which are that, nominated Senators can vote on behalf of the head of delegation on delegation, but when delegation has been done. So, the rules have not changed.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): What is it, Sen. Wako with a “K”?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I suggest that you distinguish me and Sen. Waqo with a “Q” by just saying: “Senator number one and the other one Sen. Waqo.” Then there will be no confusion ---

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Order, Senator! That is subject to many things.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, will I be in order to congratulate the Senate Majority Leader who for the first time has requested to postpone an issue because he wants to consult the Leader of Minority? It is the first time I have heard this. We should congratulate that new spirit and hold him to it for the entire five year period. We must carry out our functions in this House in the spirit of consultations and consensus, if possible. The Whip will, of course, be there to ensure this happens.

On a point of Order!

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): I do not know what is out of order because when you rise on a point of order, you are supposed to first of all declare on what Standing Order you are rising and then proceed to say what is out of order or alternatively if there is a grey area where you need guidance from the Chair. In that connection, what is it, Senate Majority Leader? Do you have problems with consultations?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want it to go on record that this is not the first time for the Senate Majority Leader to say he would like to consult the Senate Minority Leader. You did it several times in the previous Parliament and Sen. Wako should have remembered that. This might be the first time in this Parliament and there are reasons to discuss things that happen in this world including handshakes.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Very well. Let us go to the next Order. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Sen. (Prof.) Ongeri had 14 minutes left when debate on this Bill was interrupted yesterday. So Sen. (Prof.) Ongeri, you have the Floor.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, yesterday I indicated and emphasised how important and how emotional it can be to see the National Flag flying on special occasions. I indicated that I had the opportunity of being the Chairman of the Amateur Athletics Association of Kenya (AAAK) and every time we went to compete internationally, Kenya romped for first position taking gold. On many occasions, we swept the floor in Steeplechase because we could win gold, silver and bronze. Such occasions were so emotive that everybody, regardless of the ethnic background, joined singing “Harambee Kenya!” because of the excitement. Therefore, the embodiment of the National Flag and emblem during public holidays is a befitting act that we can perform. When our Rugby Sevens team wins, I see a lot of flags flying and that is the spirit of patriotism. When athletes win, a lot of flags fly, a sign of patriotism and when Harambee Stars performs well, there is patriotism in flying the flag. Therefore, this must percolate and permeate to Kenyans so that they understand what their flag means. Of course they should not misuse it against the authority but they can use it for the benefit of mobilising the populations and people to know that they belong to the Republic of Kenya. It is a spirit of oneness that this Act aims to create. I am happy the Mover of the Bill thought very carefully that it is important that we have this Act to allow us fly flags during public holidays. That is a sign of patriotism. People should be allowed to display the National Flag whether they are in a private building or anywhere else.

When Americans do well in the Super Bowl, they fly flags everywhere. Why not Kenyans? We are super in many ways. We are super culturally, athletics-wise and many other sports and we have proved it. Even in reaching an agreement where there was a wonderful handshake, that should have called for the hoisting of the flag in private residences and public buildings because that was a sign of goodwill; that peace and tranquility is finally finding its doors within the borders of Kenya. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I rise to support The National Flag, Emblems and Names (Amendment) Bill (Senate Bills No.8 of 2017). I support this Bill because of its intention. It seeks to amend an Act of Parliament that was enacted in 1963 to allow Kenyans to fly the flag in private or public premises on The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I rise to support the amendments. This is one of those Bills that lapsed in the last Parliament for I remember discussing it in the National Assembly and it is important that we expedite it. In fact, while still on that issue, we need to do something to this House because it appears that we have very few Bills and we are engaging in Statements as if a lot of the work of this Senate is on Statements. The core business of Members is to pass legislation because no matter how good the Statements are - I am not trying to belittle them since they are owed to the Members - they do not enforce anything as such. We may have all the answers but what will really last forever is the amount of Bills that we will pass. As per our last discussion during the induction, we had 90 Bills that we can revive going forward. There are so many areas of legislation. Anyway, that is a discussion for another day, though it will be good if we amend the Standing Orders to have a sitting every Wednesday for us to canvass as many Statements as possible. On the issue of National Emblems, especially the flag, it is usually very exciting to see our flag being hoisted when we win a race as a country. One usually gets excited when outside the country and they find someone wearing a wristband with the flag of the country, yet some of the people that we come across doing so are not even Kenyans. Some of them are tourists who came here and fell in love with our country. The fact that the flag has been associated with the Government makes it very rare for one to use such colours when they are campaigning and this even applies to politics. In fact, if you want to lose an election, the best way to go is to put on your posters the national flag colours. This even applies to those who are from the party that is actually forming the Government of the day for there is a way in which the restriction of the use of the national colours has actually stigmatized the very use of those colours. If one uses those colours, they will be associated with the Government. That is not good for we are supposed to be proud of our own heritage since the national flag unites us. It is very symbolic and has a lot of meaning. The black at the top represents the people, white calls for peace, red symbolizes the struggle and green represents our very fertile grounds. These are things that we are supposed to be proud of for when you look around, there are countries that seem to be copying our own flag. For example, the only difference between our national flag and that of South Sudan is the blue at the corner. We are supposed to make this free and available to Kenyans and it should not be restricted to Government officials alone. Everybody is aware of how communities celebrate if one of their own sons and daughters is able to fly a flag; in this case having a ministerial position. The restricted use of the national flag is a manifestation of the lack of patriotism in this country. The fact that a flag can be seen to be for citizens who are pro-government The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I stand right from the onset to support this Bill. The whole idea of the way we handle the matters of the flag has a lot to do with our history; the way we grew up and the way we have learnt to behave within a certain context. For example, in many communities and in many places, when the flag was being hoisted, you had to stand at attention and if you moved, you would be stopped. You had to raise it up in a certain way and salute. I think this is what gave this impression. The revering of the flag in this way was not bad because in itself, it is meant to show the respect of the flag though I think that we went too far with the agenda of respect and missed the aspect of patriotism. For many children, they have not learnt to identify with that flag. When I was in primary school, at the Star of the Sea School, Mombasa, we would first hoist the flag and then sing all the three stanzas of the National Anthem. We knew how to sing the National Anthem both in English and Kiswahili. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you. Proceed, Sen. Olekina.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I rise to support this Bill. I have gone through it and one of the questions that came to mind is; what does the flag The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Hon. Senators, I would like to acknowledge the presence in the Public Gallery, this afternoon, of visiting students and teachers from Medina High School, Nairobi County. In our usual tradition of receiving and welcoming visitors to Parliament, I extend a warm welcome to them. On behalf of the Senate and my own behalf, I wish them a fruitful visit. I thank you.

Proceed, Sen. Pareno Judith Ramaita.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Would I be in order to request for a few minutes to welcome the young men and women, especially as we discuss such an important amendment to this Bill, touching on our patriotism? Could I proceed to welcome them?

Proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. We are really proud to see the young boys in the Gallery this afternoon. We wish them the best in their school work and all that they do. We are happy they are here this afternoon when we are in the process of discussing an amendment to the National Flag, Emblems and Names (Amendment) Bill, 2017. We are talking about the importance of revering our flag and using it as a sense of identity for ourselves as Kenyans. They will follow a bit of this debate and as they go back, they will explain to their colleagues who did not come, what the Senate does and how we are here to protect the counties as we proceed with this work.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I wish to extend a warm welcome to the boys from Medina High School. I notice that the Senator for The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you for your encouraging words. We will now go on with our debate. Proceed, Hon. Pareno Judith.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I also join my colleagues in welcoming Medina Boys High School to the Senate. I am sure that after listening to the debate on the National Flag, Emblems and Names (Amendment) Bill, they will leave this Senate feeling patriotic and take the message home. Madam Temporary Speaker, I rise to support this very important Bill on flags and emblems. I thank the hon. Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. for coming up with this patriotic Bill. This Bill brings a sense of nationalism, patriotism and belonging.

Order, Sen. Cheruiyot! Consult in low tones. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this Bill could not have come at a better time. It is good that it has come at this particular time when we are speaking about reconciling as a country and going back to the feeling of being Kenyan by taking advantage of what we saw on the 9th March, 2018 between our two leaders; ‘the people’s president’ and the President of the Republic of Kenya. This is a Bill that sets the tone for this sort of reconciliation that we about to undertake as a country. At one point, there was a saying that was synonymous with some of us. We kept saying: “ Tunajihurumia kuwa Wakenya” instead of saying, “ tunajivunia kuwa Wakenya. However, today, with this sort of Bill and the move to build bridges to a new Kenya, we can comfortably say: Tunajivunia kuwa Wakenya. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we stand a chance to rebrand this country through this patriotic and noble Bill. You can imagine how these youngsters will feel if they are told that any Kenyan can actually apply, through this Bill, to fly the Kenyan flag. One feels proud, patriotic and a sense of ownership. I think it was okay for us to stay for over 50 years down the line without opening up for flags to be flown as a way to rebrand ourselves. As we went round some of the partner states in the East African Community (EAC) - I always keep referring to this because we interacted with the EAC citizens – we were told that Kenyans are very aggressive and corrupt. Some of the partner states fear us. However, I can assure you that with this kind of Bill, we are likely to rebrand ourselves within ourselves. It is a Bill for Kenyans and by Kenyans to bring back the sense of ownership and patriotism. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I feel like we are setting in place a new Kenya; maybe, the third liberation. We had the first liberation from colonialists. The second liberation came when we swore to a new Constitution. We are now building bridges to have a new nation called Kenya. I welcome this new initiative of making citizens feel that they are part and parcel of what is going on in this country. We can pass on this liberation baton, through this flag, to every citizen in this country. I beg to support this Bill.

Thank you. Sen. Wako Sitswila Amos, Busia County.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. It is Sitswila Amos Wako, in that order. First of all, I welcome the boys from Medina Schools. The house which I have built is called Medina House. I love the name “Medina.” Therefore, you are in a school with a very good name. It is now up to you to live up to the good name of Medina; a place where I believe Prophet Mohammed went at some stage in his pilgrimages. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we are discussing a very important Bill. It was one of the first Bills to be passed as soon as we got Independence. This is Chapter 99 of the Laws of Kenya. It was passed in 1963. It is no wonder that it had provisions to ensure utmost respect towards the national flag and emblems. At that time, we had just become a new State and maybe people had not recognised the importance of the flag. Therefore, the Act has served its purpose. Kenyans today know the importance of the national flag and The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you. That was quite elaborate. Proceed, Sen. Masitsa Naomi Shiyonga for Kakamega Delegation.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to support The National Flag, Emblems and Names (Amendment) Bill (Senate Bills No.8 of 2017). I commend Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. for bringing this Bill to the Floor of the House. It is an important Bill. In fact, this Bill embraces the spirit of togetherness and patriotism. It reminds us, as Kenyans, where our forefathers have brought us from and the good fight they fought to liberate us from the colonialists. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you. Lastly, we shall have Sen. (Eng.) Hargura Godana from Marsabit County.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I thank Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. for coming up with this amendment Bill. As it has been said rightly by Sen. Amos Wako, this law was enacted a long time when we were growing as a nation. However, now we have matured and we can treat our signs or emblems maturely. Already Kenyans are identifying themselves with the national emblem. That is why you could see them flying the flag during national functions or major tournaments against other countries as a sign of patriotism. It is better they are allowed but it is legislated. That is what this Bill is seeking to achieve. Kenyans should be allowed legislatively to fly the flag with caution so that we do not water down what these symbols mean. It is a sign of our sovereignty and national unity, but we have to treat them with dignity. It is good to allow it legislatively but caution the citizenry to treat these emblems in a dignified manner.

Thank you. At this juncture, I invite the Mover to reply, then we end that order there.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I thank my fellow Senators and colleagues for their contribution to this Bill. I have listened to all the comments and they are positive. Sen. Olekina proposes, and I agree, that the flag should be flown all the time. Although I have no objection to it, the idea was to make sure that during the national holidays everybody has an opportunity to fly the national flag. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, Sen. Wako proposed that governors, deputy speakers, the Chief Justice, the Deputy Chief Justice and chairpersons of committees fly flags; again, I have no objection. The only problem is that this brought so much The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you. Next Order. I think Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. should request for the deferring or the putting of the question.

Thank you Mr. Temporary speaker, Sir. It slipped my mind. I beg that under Standing Order No. 55(3) we defer the putting of the question to a later date to be assigned by you.

I direct that we defer the putting of the question to next week on Wednesday.

Let us have the Senate Majority Leader.

I direct that we defer this order to tomorrow. ( Bill Deferred ) Next Order!

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Motion:- THAT, pursuant to Article 230(2) (b) (vii) of the Constitution and Section 7(1) and (2) of the Salaries and Remuneration Commission Act, The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I rise to Second the Motion on the Report of the Standing Committee on Finance and Budget on the nominees by the Senate on behalf of the county governments to the SRC. The Chairman has gone into great lengths about the details of what we have done. Generally, we identified legal lacunae existing in terms of filling of the vacancies. In our usual energy and style, we have attached the proposed amendments to Section7 and 9 of the SRC Act. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we have also observed that although the law requires that we get clearances by the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission(EACC), what actually happens is that people fill in forms but you do not get any clearance by the EACC. In fact, you cannot get any clearance by the EACC. So, there are two The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

What is your point of order, Sen. (Dr.) Zani?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I was trying to attract your attention before you move too far. Is it in order for Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. to support the Motion instead of seconding it for the record of this Senate?

Hon. Senator, by the mere fact that he has contributed after the Mover, it is presumed that he has seconded the Motion because he was invited to second. The Motion is open for debate. Let us start with Hon. Sen. Omogeni Erick Okong’o, the Senator for Nyamira County.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. First, I want to register my appreciation to the Standing Committee on Finance and Budget, chaired by my good friend, Eng. Mohamed, for a job well done. The assignment given to this Committee was very tedious. I have gone through the Report and, in total, they received 80 applications. Sieving through 80 applications is not a small job. From that, they came up with a shortlist of 42 candidates, whom they interviewed and rated from number 1to 40. I note that two candidates did not show up for the interview. We cannot overemphasize the importance that the SRC plays in this country. We know that under Article 230 (4) (a) of the Constitution, that is the Commission that advises the national and county governments on remuneration. Therefore, the representative that this Senate picks is one who must represent the interests of the county governments. So, we cannot overemphasize the critical role played by this Commission. Having said those kind words for the Standing Committee on Finance and Budget, there are issues that come out and raise serious questions on the final recommendations of this Committee to this House. We know that this country enacted a new Constitution in 2010. We have our national values under Article 10 of our Constitution, where we must have transparency and accountability. We also know about Chapter Six of the Constitution. I have read the Report and it says that the candidates being recommended comply with Chapter Six of the Constitution. I am speaking as a former Chair of the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC). We know that under Article 73 of our Constitution appointments or recommendations for appointments to key offices should not depict any favourism or improper motives. It should be fair and on account of who is best qualified for that job. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I have read through the Report that has been moved by the Chairperson. If you go through the entire Report, the Committee from the onset The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you. Next is honourable Mwaura Isaac. Now we can proudly refer to you as “Senator from somewhere”.

Thank you very much Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Indeed, I am Senator from somewhere but not somewhere between some bedroom and a police station and, definitely, I am not the Minority Leader for nowhere. I am proudly glad that I am a nominated Senator for Persons with Disabilities (PwDs). The former Senate Minority Leader became an MP having been nominated by Kenya African National Union (KANU). So, he should know better that we are leaders in our own rights.

Go straight to the point, Senator!

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I rise to oppose this report. I am at pains to oppose it because I am the Vice Chair of the Committee. We sat and gave the candidates the marks that they deserved. I oppose because I have not signed it. So, I am not part and parcel of this report.

Point of order!

What is your point of order, Sen. (Prof.) Ongeri?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, is Sen. Mwaura in order to oppose the report when it says that the decision was unanimous? Which report shall we accept?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the report was not unanimous. If you look at it, you will realise that my signature is not there. So, it was not unanimous. It may have been a unanimous decision by those who were there but I am not part of it.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. The Chair and Vice Chair of a committee are almost inseparable. The Chair of the Committee on Finance and Budget has read the report of the Committee. Is it in order for the Vice Chair of the same committee to rise and oppose when he had an opportunity to do that within the Committee? He is the Vice Chair of the committee, unless he wants to be an ordinary Member. He cannot come here and oppose his Chair on the Floor.

I think Sen. Mwaura is contributing in his capacity as a Member of the Senate, representing PwDs and not as a Vice Chair of the Committee. Therefore he is in order. Sen. Mwaura, you can proceed.

Thank you, the great leader from Kakamega. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order to continue listing to Sen. Mwaura who was a Member of the Committee and yet Standing Order No.207 (4) says:- “A Select Committee shall adopt its report in a meeting attended by a majority of its members. (5) A report having been adopted by a majority of Senators, a Minority of the Dissenting Report may be appended to the report by any member or members of the committee.” Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this is a Member from that Committee who does not have a minority report that is appended. Is it in order to continue to allow him to contribute to that? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Hon. Senator, you are out of order because I had already ruled on that matter. The Senator was contributing in his own capacity as a Senator representing the People Living with Disability (PLWD). Sen. Mwaura, I direct that you conclude. The subsequent Senators who will contribute, I shall limit you to two minutes.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for the ruling. I wish to ask this House to objectively look at this report and determine the people who are recommended are actually the people who performed the best during the interviews. If you look at the issue of regions it does not matter. If the best candidates came from the same region, so be it. We need a man and a woman to recommend for further appointment. Therefore, it is not a question of gender. Otherwise, this will mean that all ladies were competing against themselves and all the men were competing against themselves. So, if Margaret Sawe was number one as a woman, she will still be number one as a lady. I rise to oppose this report. The Temporary Speaker (Sen. Malalah): Sen. Sitswila Amos Wako, Busia County.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for getting my names right in the order in which they should be pronounced. I only have two minutes. It is, indeed, a bad spectacle so see the Chairman and Vice-Chairman disagreeing on a report without having the minority report. This shows that there could have been no unanimity. However, my concern is paragraph 35. It is important to bear it in mind. It says that:- “In the circumstances, the Committee unanimously agreed that it would consider the following criteria for purposes of shortlisting exercise.” Criterion No.2 says:- “Whether the applicant has knowledge and at least 10 years’ experience.” Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there are Members who are experienced with this process. There were 80 applicants and who were shortlisted to 42. Normally, when shortlisting, the first thing to consider is whether they have the requisite qualifications as advertised.

The mere fact that Sen. Melly was shortlisted, it shows that the Committee was satisfied that he had met the requisite qualifications, which include at least 10 years’ experience. However, when it comes to the summary, they did not make a remark in respect of Sen. Melly, that 10 years’ experience was not established. This is not explained nor do we have the Curriculum Vitae (CV) of Sen. Melly. Therefore, this House is not in a position to judge what happened and what marks have been given. Before we finalize with it, we want this to be done. I support my senior here that we need to refer this report back to the Committee so that they clarify. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, in conclusion, I want to emphasize the importance of the Committee on Finance and Budget on Nominees to the Position of Member of the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. There is a mood in the House and it is coming out clearly that this Report needs to be either amended or sent back to the Committee. We are recruiting on behalf of county governments and if I was doing that, I would look for someone who understands devolution, counties and how they operate. I would look for someone who understands Parliament and particularly the role of the Senate in protecting the interests of counties. I would look for someone who understands the challenges that the SRC has gone through in the last six years and how that affected them. I would look for someone who complies with Chapter Six of the Constitution on Leadership and Integrity, and with the right academic qualifications and then I will look for experience. On page 21 of 26, number one is Sen. Isaac Melly, then when you go back to page 7 of 76, the name of Sen. Isaac Melly is missing. You wonder whether it was electronic or manual transmission. On one hand, Sen. Melly is number one and on the other hand, Sen. Melly has disappeared. We must ask this question on behalf of the youth of Kenya. If you look at all the young people in their thirties in that list, the Committee has said that they do not have relevant experience or ten years’ experience. We must also question this thing of experience, what does it mean? We have people who have been in the same position for forty years, doing the same thing day in, day out. Is that the kind of experience that we need? Does experience only mean when you are employed? What about the millions of young men and women who we have failed to get jobs for many years? When will they ever be able to get that experience? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me an opportunity to contribute to this Motion. I have had an opportunity to peruse the Report which was Tabled by the Chairperson of the Committee on Finance and Budget, and I am perplexed. It seems that ageism is pervasive and entrenched in our society. When I look at it, I am shocked. A young man with a promising future, scored 78 and then there is a remark that he does not have ten years’ experience. This really shocks me because I listened to my dear friend and able Senator who seconded this Motion, Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., and he said one thing; that they looked at merit. Where else is merit if when you score the highest, then the Committee says you do not have ten years’ experience? Poor Melly will not ask his mother to put him back in the stomach and get him out ten years earlier. This Report is terrible and I would like to request the Committee---

Senator, is it the stomach or the womb?

Thank you for that clarification, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I would like to urge the Committee to look at this Report again. I listened carefully to what Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. said. He said that none of them shared the results on how they graded the candidates. If that is the truth, then the person who should be recommended to represent us in the SRC is none other than Sen. Kipkemboi Melly. Last year or two years ago, someone who is close to me scored the highest marks in an interview, but just because he came from somewhere else --- One Tukei Olekina, scored 76 points and emerged as the top candidate, but his name was not forwarded. It is about time that this House supports merit rather than entitlement. If the second or the third person were more entitled, then they should have had merit to support it. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, where did this pervasive sense of entitlement in our nominations come from? How did it get into all our processes? We must support merit. If we are not going to discriminate Sen. Isaac Kipkemboi Melly because of his age, then by The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you Sen. Olekina. Please proceed, Sen. Madzayo.

Asante Bw. Spika wa Muda. Jambo la kwanza, nasimama kupinga ripoti hii. Tunaelewa kwamba katika maisha ya binadamu, urefu, ufupi na miaka ya kuishi katika ulimwengu ni ya Mwenyezi Mungu. Katika maisha, huwezi hata kidogo kumbaguwa mtu kwa sababu yeye ni mfupi au mrefu. Hayo ni majaliwa ya Mwenyezi Mungu. Tukiangalia ripoti, tunaona kwamba Sen. Melly ni kijana mdogo sana. Lakini, kuwa kijana haimaanishi hana akili na ndio maana aliitwa katika mahojiano na baada ya hayo, mwenyekiti, naibu wake na kamati nzima tunayoifahamu na tuliipa jukumu hilo walimualika na baadaye wakahakikisha ameibuka mshindi. Hivi leo ni jambo la kusikitisha kabisa kuona katika Seneti, mmoja wetu ambaye amefuzu anatengwa kwa sababu ya umri wake. Watu wa Kaunti ya Uasin Gishu mwaka wa 2013, katika maeneo ya Bunge saba yaliyoko katika kaunti hiyo, walimchagua kijana mdogo kuja hapa na akafanya kazi miaka mitano bila kushindwa. Jambo kuu ni kwamba tusimtoe Sen. Melly kwa sababu yeye ni mfupi, miaka yake haijatosha au pengine ni mrefu. Kama mtu ameibuka wa kwanza katika mahojiano, ni haki hata mbele ya Mwenyezi Mungu apewe kazi hiyo. Haijalishi Sen. Melly ni mdogo ama mkubwa; haki yake apewe.

Maoni yangu ya mwisho, nataka bwana Chairman ---

What is your point of order Sen. (Dr) Kabaka?

I have seen an intervention from you. Okay. Sen. Cheruiyot, what is your point of order?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am sorry to interrupt the remarks of my colleague and friend. However, I just felt that it is important that we inform this The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Sen. Cheruiyot, that was not a point of order. You have just used a short cut. Proceed, Sen. Madzayo.

Nashukuru, Bw. Spika wa Muda. Unaweza kuona kwamba kijana kama Sen. Cheruiyot anaweza kuleta maoni kama hayo. Namshukuru kwa sababu ameweza kutueleza sote hapa ndani ya Seneti. La mwisho, Bw. Spika wa Muda, ni kumuomba Mwenyekiti wa Kamati hii achukue ripoti yake. Nyumba hii ya Seneti iko na uwezo wa kuchukua hatua hiyo hivi sasa na kugeuza repoti hii ili tuidhinishe yule ambaye amekuwa wa kwanza katika mahojiano hayo. Tunaweza kumtuma Mwenyekiti aende huko, akae na aregeshe ripoti hii hapa akisema ya kwamba Sen. Melly ndiye amechukua nafasi ya kwanza. Asante sana, Bw. Spika wa Muda.

Thank you. Proceed, Sen. (Dr.) Langat.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I also rise to oppose this particular Motion. This is based on the fact that Sen. Melly is 39 years old and he was first employed in Moi University at the age of 24 years. It means that he has been working for fifteen years. What do we call that if you wanted experience? Records show that this man, Sen. Melly--- I support what Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. was saying; that they scrutinised the marks and they were awarding privately. It is only during the ‘editing’ period, that they were able to know who won. So, that one showed us that he had 78 marks. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I have attended several interviews and I know that to score one mark ahead of somebody is not very simple. The media is watching us from all over the world and they are seeing that we are denying somebody with 78 marks an opportunity. We are denying him that opportunity simply because of an afterthought that experience was a requirement after shortlisting and after scoring marks in the interview. Thereafter, you start thinking; why can we not bring in the idea of experience to limit this particular youth from growing his experience? Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, during the time I was working in the university, we would go for assessment in other places and we could see teachers, during teaching practice, even performing better than those who have been teaching for 30 years. That is why we questioned experience and replaced it with research. Research and abilities of a person are very important in innovation more than experience. So, if we always stick to The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you. Proceed, Sen. (Prof.) Ongeri.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Merit, merit and merit must be the substantive position one must take.

I have been thoroughly constrained to append my signature to first class honours person being put out of contestation. In other words, if truly Sen. Meli scored 78 marks and I am one of those professors who have adjudicated those marks. I have cautiously looked at the criteria whether the applicant holds a degree from the University of Nairobi (UON) in accordance with page 16 and he does. I have weighted the marks for that candidate and also looked at whether he has knowledge and at least ten years’ experience in either public management---. Someone who has been in this House has been able to do public management and human resource management. The most difficult thing for a politician is to handle human beings at the constituency or the county levels. In terms of that criteria, he qualifies. With regard to the question whether he has experience in finance and administration, the whole purpose of a Senator is to oversight the county on matters of finances. I do not know of the other experience that is required from this individual. He has also been a lawmaker. Therefore, he has knowledge of labour laws. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, if we are going for criteria and merit, then the list before us is not the one we should consider until they have included the one who scored 78 marks which, to me, is a first class honours marks. I will not be comfortable without his name here. As an elder and a man of experience, that it is a wrong move to justify an appointment of somebody who does not merit the appointment. I oppose the name put before us and look forward to either the Committee bringing a fresh name or amending this report here and now.

I want to notify the House that we are remaining with 15 minutes. Therefore, in your valedictory remarks, you need to be The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me a chance to add my voice to this Motion. From the onset, I oppose this Report.

I also congratulate the Committee for having sat and listened to Kenyans from different counties. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, if I am not wrong, according to the Constitution, the mandate of this House is to look into county budgets. I have heard that former Sen. Melly sat in this House for five years going through county budgets and allocations. He interacted with different institutions, including those he had to oversight in the Committee. Therefore, he has the necessary knowledge on finances. In one of the sections of this report, we are told the Committee sat and did their analysis and decided to use average scores in determining the suitable candidate. They rated former Sen. Melly as the best candidate. However, in the last parts of the process, they denied him a chance because of technicalities. We, as a House, should always be guided by merit when considering individuals for appointments to serve in various institutions. I also urge my colleagues to look at these appointments in terms of equality. It is important to give all tribes and genders equal chances to serve in this institution. I congratulate the Committee because they rated and considered those ladies who sat in the interview on merit. Finally, I oppose this Report not because Sen. Melly was a Member of this House, but because he was rated first and not given a fair chance to represent us in that institution. We know that the SRC had many challenges especially in trying to harmonise salaries. Therefore, it needs people with diverse knowledge in terms of different institutions, to be able to look at ways of harmonizing salaries. I oppose.

I invite Sen. Omogeni.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it is normally said that ishara ya

Having listened to the contributions ---

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. After listening, I can see that the mood is just right. Looking at the time, I would want to invite you to put the question, so that we amend this Report. We need to conclude this matter today. Am I in order?

First of all, in the interest of time, I would like to invoke Standing Order No.31 (2) which reads: “Unless for the convenience of the Senate, the Speaker or the Chairperson (as the case may be) directs earlier or later interruption of business, at 6.30 p.m. the Speaker or the Chairperson of Committees shall interrupt the business then under consideration and if the Senate is in Committee, the Chairperson shall leave the Chair and report progress and ask for leave to sit again.” The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the reason Sen. Omogeni was being interrupted is because he cannot speak twice on the same matter. So, with your permission – having talked to you – I would like to move an amendment. I beg to move:- THAT, the Report be adopted, subject to deleting the tables appearing at Paragraph 17 and 57 on Page 7 and 23 respectively, and substituting therefor the following table:- (1) Sen. Isaac Kipkemoi Melly, 39 years, Uasin Gishu County - 78 (2) Ms. Margaret Sawe, Nandi County - 75 Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, having listened to the contribution of Members, I am moving this amendment to give an opportunity to Sen. Melly, whom the law says, one must have qualification of at least 10 years in public management. Public management is a nebulous concept; it is anything and everything that you have been dealing with in public life. Having interacted with Sen. Melly here, he has worked in the public service since he was employed in the University of Eldoret in 2003. From there, he joined Mt. Kenya University where he worked as a Dean of Students and then, had another five grueling years of politics – a great experience that each one of us has here. Therefore, we are bringing this name so that we can adopt the Report as it is. I do not want to fault the Chairperson because they might have been confused by the second paragraph that says: “Experience in human resource”. However, there was one that says; “public management”, which is everything and anything. Secondly, one would question if this list has regional and ethnic balance. I want to put it on record, so that no one worries about it. There is only one person who will be approved from the list. Since Sen. Melly is number one, we believe he is the one who will be approved from the list that comes from the Senate. We do not have to worry that the name accompanies another person from the same region because two positions are not available; it is only one position. That is why I request my colleagues that we adopt this amendment. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, since we have the numbers and time has far much moved, I request that this amendment be seconded by Sen. Pareno.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I rise to second that amendment. It definitely goes down to put what we have said in this Senate. It affirms the spirit of this Senate. Definitely, that amendment will go a long way to state how serious we are when it comes to our business. If we could adopt that, it would set the tone that we want in this Senate. If we take it back to the Committee to discuss and reopen the matter, we might not achieve our purpose. I second because this Senate is not a rubber-stamping body. This Senate is supposed to scrutinize and receive reports, not just to look at them but to do what is required of us. We have done justice. I support this amendment. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

I open up the matter for debate. I welcome Sen. Faki from Mombasa County.

Asante, Bwana Spika wa muda. Ripoti iko sawa isipokuwa mapendekezo yake ndio yalikuwa yanatatiza waheshimiwa Maseneta. Ripoti hii inaeleza kwamba wa kwanza katika majadiliano alikuwa ni Sen. Isack Kipkemboi Melly ambaye alipata alama 78. Ripoti hii inatilia maanani uzoefu wake wa awali. Kwa kizungu inaitwa

Kwa Kiswahili tunasema ‘uzoefu wa awali.’ Kwa hivyo, uzoefu wake wa awali ulitiliwa maanani kwamba alikuwa amefanya kazi kama msimamizai wa maswala ya wanafunzi katika chuo kikuu na pia amekuwa Seneta kwa wa miaka mitano. Ijapokuwa ripoti inasema kuwa ana uzoefu wa awali wa miaka kumi kwa mambo ya fedha ilivyotakikana na Section 5 (2) (b), aliweza kuwashinda wenzake kwa alama tatu. Kwa hivyo, inaonekana kwamba huyu ni mwerevu. Tunaweza kumuita kwa kiingereza genius kulingana na mahojiano yaliyofanyika. Bwana, Spika wa muda, naunga mkono kwamba tubadilishe majina ya Sen. Isack Kipkemboi Melly na Bi. Margaret Sawe wakubaliwe kama washindani kwa nafasi hii ya mwakilishi wa kaunti katika Salaries and Remuneration Commission (SRC).

Hon. Senators, there being no other person willing to contribute, I put the question. This is a matter affecting counties because the representatives are supposed to represent the county governments. Since we have quorum for that, we rule that the Bell be rung for three minutes. Thereafter, we shall vote.

I order the Doors to be closed and the Bars drawn.

Order, hon. Senators. It is not possible to input the table in the Amendment for purposes of electronic voting. I, therefore, rule that we shall vote the manual way. I request the Senate Majority Leader to give us two Tellers who will oversee this exercise. Sen. (Dr.) Langat for Bomet County will be the Teller for the Majority side, while Sen. Kwamboka will be the Teller for the Minority side. The voting can start. DIVISION ROLL CALL VOTING

The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Sen. (Dr. Langat)

Sen. Kwamboka

Speaker (Sen. Malalah): Hon. Senators, the results of the Division are as follows:-

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. I thank Members for their contributions to the Motion. Normally a committee makes a report which belongs to the House and we agree with the amendments. We did our best, save for the comment which was sneaked in by the secretariat. We do not know what to do about it but they have made our work easy.

(Sen. Malalah) I will now put the Question. Since this matter affects counties, we will vote again on the same. I therefore order the Division Bell to be rung for one minute.

The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Sen. (Dr.) Lang’at

Sen. Kwamboka

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division are as follows:-

Hon. Senators, we have come to the end of today’s Business. The House stands adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, 22nd March, 2018 at 2.30 p.m.. The Senate rose at 7.10 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.