Hon. Senators, I would like to acknowledge the presence, in the Public Gallery this afternoon, of visiting students and teachers from Tumaini Academy, Bomet County. In our usual tradition of receiving and welcoming visitors to Parliament, I extend a warm welcome to them. On my own behalf and that of the Senate, I welcome them to the Senate and wish them a fruitful visit. I thank you.

Sen. (Dr.) Milgo, I can see that you want to say something.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the visiting students and teachers come from my county. I join you in welcoming them to this House. I wish to encourage them to work hard. This House deals with matters of the counties and I hope that in future, they will come here as Senators. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I join my neighbour in welcoming Tumaini Academy from Bomet. I would like to inform them that my shemeji, who is their governor, is doing a good job there. I welcome them to this House, so that in future they can have the opportunity---

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the hon. Senator, next to me, in order to use different languages when making his presentation? That is against the Standing Orders. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not from the Coast, but I was sending a message to Sen. (Dr.) Zani, so that she can understand that the Governor of Bomet County is my sister-in-law.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is an opportunity for students from Tumaini Academy to learn how we debate national issues; matters that affect this nation. We are, therefore, preparing them so that when we retire, we expect some of them to be future Senators of the Republic of Kenya. Thank you.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I join you in welcoming Tumaini Academy from Bomet County. ‘ Tumaini ’ means ‘hope’ in English. You are the hope and future of Kenya and your dreams are valid. Work hard and become Senators one day, so that you can play an important role in making legislation for this country, especially on devolution which is a key area that we discuss here in the Senate. It will ensure that we have devolved our units to a place where services can get to all the people equitably. We wish you all the best and thank you for coming here. You will listen to us this afternoon and see how we debate and articulate issues. When you go back, let the other students who did not come here know what happens in the Senate of Kenya. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Thank you, Sen. (Dr.) Zani. However, all Senators should address the Speaker. Sen. Cherargei.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I join you and my colleagues in welcoming Tumaini Academy. I have extended relatives in Bomet and specific interests there. I, therefore, wish them well as they learn all that they can. We, from Nandi County, are aware of their impressive performance and are proud of them. . When they go back they should be ambassadors. They should learn as much as they can because, as I my colleagues have stated, they are the hope of the future. I wish them well and all the best. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Thank you Senators. Next order!

Hon. Senators, the Petition that is listed in the Order Paper was presented yesterday. Therefore, let us move to the next Order. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, pursuant to Standing Order 46 (2) (a), I rise to make a Statement on an issue of general topical concern about our credit rating as a country. Even though this seems to be overtaken by headlines in the newspapers today about anxiety as Kenya’s debt load goes to Kshs5 trillion. That said, I will still go ahead and bring the attention of this House to the staggering debt burden that this country is going into. More importantly is the downgrading of our country by Moody’s. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will explain a little bit about Moody’s, just for the sake of those of us who do not understand it and our students who are in the Public Gallery. It is a bond credit rating company that provides international financial research on bonds issued by commercial and government entities. The company ranks the creditworthiness of borrowers using a standardized ratings scale which measures expected investor loss in the event of default. The purpose of this rating is to provide investors with a simple system of gradation by which future relative creditworthiness of a country or institutions may be gauged. Our economy has been declining, even though in 2017 we had an estimation that expanded to 4.9 against 5.9 in the previous year. However, that has been attributed to the long electioneering period and other aspects such as the drought. According to the 2018 Economic Survey, the key drivers of all our economy - manufacturing, finance and agriculture - were all constrained. The financial and insurance sectors also declined in growth significantly over the said period and, therefore, dampened the overall growth of the economy. Mr. Speaker, Sir, a few months ago, the Moody's Investors Service downgraded three of our banks. I will not mention those banks because it is in the public domain. We do not want to penalize our banks when their credit rating has suffered as a result of our sovereign debt and ratings. Three of our banks were downgraded from a B1 rating to a B2 rating. This followed the downgrading of our country’s credit worthiness. Moody’s Sovereign press release asserted that the rating action was primarily driven by the potential deterioration of the Kenya Government’s credit profile as captured by the Moody’s recent rating action to place the B1 sovereign rating on review for downgrade. The Kenyan banks had high exposure to the Government debt, which is linked to their credit profile. Therefore, the banks were downgraded as a result of our sovereign debt burden and suffered a great loss. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in recent fiscal years, Kenya has been forced to borrow heavily to finance infrastructure, which is a good thing. However, the source of borrowing has been a great concern for economists. Instead of borrowing from multilateral sources, we have been borrowing from commercial sources and some bilateral sources such as China. This has really ramped up our debt. Just to give some figures; our foreign debt amounted to Kshs2.63 trillion by February this year. I think it is a bit more now. The domestic debt which is a bit more recent – up to last month – is Kshs2.448 trillion, making a total of Kshs5.011 trillion debt burden for the country. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

The Senate Majority Leader, give us the next statement. BUSINESS FOR THE WEEK COMMENCING TUESDAY, 19TH JUNE, 2018

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This is the statement from the Office of the Senate Majority Leader on the business of the Senate for the week commencing 19th June, 2018, pursuant to Standing Order No. 46(2)(c). I hereby present to the Senate, the business of the House for the week commencing Tuesday 19th June, 2018. The Senate Business Committee (SBC) will meet on Tuesday, 19th June, 2018, to schedule the Senate business for that week. Subject to further direction by the SBC, the Senate will on that Tuesday continue with consideration of business that will not have been concluded in today’s Order Paper. On Wednesday, 20th June, 2018 and Thursday, 21st June, 2018, the Senate will consider The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Hon. Senators, due to lack of the requisite number, I wish to defer Order No. 8 that is supposed to be a division and Order No. 9 that is supposed to be the Committee of the Whole. The Sponsor of the Bill is not present.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is your point of order, Sen. Ndwiga?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Sen. Abshiro raised a matter of great national importance. I am surprised that after her statement, we moved on with business of the House as usual. This country is riding on an impossible debt portfolio at the moment. I was hoping that you would ask the relevant standing committee ---

Order, hon. Member! I did not see any request for intervention. We have already dispensed with what Sen. Abshiro raised. So, your worry amounts to an intervention.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this statement was not committed to a specific committee to interrogate the issues raised. The issues raised are of great magnitude. Is it in order?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is your point of order, Sen. Ladema?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I concur with my colleague, but the statement was issued pursuant to standing order 46(2)(a). It does not require to be committed to a committee. We have already proceeded to other businesses on the Order Paper. In as much as I agree with you that it is important, you are out of order to raise that now. The Standing Orders are clear.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is your point of order, Sen. Poghisio?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, when a Member rides on a point of order, he is out of order. So, we are all out of order.

I am worried that my good friend, Sen. Olekina, is taking over the Speaker’s roles in determining what is in order and out of order. Is he in order? You should rule him out of order.

Order, Members! The Standing Order that the Senator used to raise the statement does not require the Speaker to refer it to any committee. However, it is up to the committee concerned to pick up the matter if they feel it is a matter of national importance. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Sen. Cherargey, you still have 35 minutes to move the Bill.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for that clarification. As a Standing Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights, we are seeking that this Bill is passed. It will ensure that the functions of the county attorney are provided for, the discharge of duties and exercise of powers by the county attorney. Yesterday, we agreed that the biggest challenge with our counties is the pending bills. One of them that is being misused is the outsourcing of legal services. This Bill creates the offices of the County Attorney, County Solicitor General and county legal advisor. Clause 9 of the Bill states: “No criminal proceeding or civil suit shall be brought against the County Attorney, the County Solicitor, County Legal Counsel or any other officer in the Office in respect of any proceedings in a court of law or in the course of discharging of the functions of the County Attorney under this Act.” This is to ensure that they are protected from any legal proceedings when they are done with their work or no longer in office. As a Committee, we felt that it is important that we have that provision so that it does not haunt us in future. Clause 10 is on the status of the County Attorney. I agree that we are not delocalizing the Attorney-General’s office. We are just ensuring that devolution works. So, in using the example of the Attorney-General’s office, the rules that have been provided in the Constitution is that the Attorney-General is an ex-officio member in the Cabinet. That is why in this Clause, we have provided that the County Attorney is in the same rank orstatus with a County Executive Committee (CEC) member. However, the recruitment of the same person will be done by the County Public Service Board (CPSB) in consultation with the Governor so as to eliminate administrative issues. I know it would have been appropriate that way because these are the people that will legally advise the county. We looked at the functions under Clause 4 and then decided that Clause 10 be deleted to avoid conflict of interest. It was also to put the office into the existing structure The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Hon. Senators, consult in low tones.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we want to caution so that we do not have a County Attorney, County Solicitor or County Legal Counsel going to bed with some of the people who are interested with consultancy services, especially on legal services. Therefore, we have tightened and ensured that ---

One of my members in the Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights, Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. is happy this afternoon. I know it is just after lunch.

In Clause 17 we have provided that the County Solicitor must have at least five years of experience. This was the argument that we had during public participation because we have many young lawyers in this country and we realised people who have practiced long enough no longer find far flung areas attractive. That is why we said in this Bill, that we need to make sure CPSB provides a remuneration that is attractive to even senior practicing lawyers. This way, the quality of services can be improved. It is the same with the county legal counsel and the county solicitor. For the terms and conditions in Clause 19, we have provided the code of conduct for the County Attorney, the County Legal Counsel and the County Solicitor. In Clause 20(1), it provides that:- “A County Legal Counsel appointed under Section 18 shall subscribe to and observe the Code of Conduct as set out in the Second Schedule” I have highlighted that together with the requirements. We had only indicated the County Attorney and the feeling of the Committee was that we should include the County Solicitor and the County Legal Counsel too, to ensure uniformity in the application of the law. This is to provide that even as we generate the code of ethics and leave the CPSB to generate the code of ethics or engagement. Clause 21 is straightforward. Clause 22 provides for staff and it is very important. It states:- “There shall be such officers and other members of staff of the Office as the County Attorney considers necessary for proper and efficient discharge of the functions of the Office”. As we said in Clause 4 of the Office of the County Attorney, the functions include, apart from legal advice, representation in court of law, negotiations, drafting and vetting of documents. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Let us have Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. seconding.

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On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is your point of order, Sen. Cheruiyot?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, you may have been distracted to notice this or perhaps, the proper word is that somebody else sought your attention. In concluding after making very good and elaborate remarks, the Mover of this Bill did not follow the laid down procedure in moving. I, therefore, request that you request him to come back to the Dispatch Box and follow the laid down procedure---.

Debate on the Bill started yesterday, Sen. Cheruiyot.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, if that is the case, then I stand guided. It is good to respect our procedures. Thank you for your guidance.

Thank you, Senator. Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to second the Office of the County Attorney Bill (Senate Bills No.3 of 2018). I intend to be brief. Again, it is dejavu on this Bill because I seconded the first one that never saw the light of day. When we conceived this Bill in 2014 the idea was to have counties get legal advice and counsel, similar to the services offered by the Attorney General. As I speak, most counties have county attorneys. However, the terms of those attorneys; who hires them, how much they are paid and whether they are hired by CPSB is not uniform. I must commend Bomet County because it was the first one to have a county attorney. We may not have liked Governor Isaac Ruto, but he was good for many reasons. I know that he is the only governor who did not sign the medical equipment lease agreement. That is why he is the only one who appointed a county attorney in 2014.At that time, the intention was to make sure that counties do not spend a lot of money hiring lawyers. Right now, the first observation that the County Public Accounts and Investments Committee (CPAIC) is making is that counties are spending too much money on lawyers. The statement made by the Deputy President in Mombasa about the amount of money being paid to lawyers is because when they passed this Bill in 2015, it suffered the fate of all Bills that were passed by the last Senate. It went and was kept in the shelves and the Speaker, who is your colleague, decided to sit and see whether it was a matter concerning counties. The result is the statement that one lawyer in Nairobi - and they are my colleagues - has been paid over Kshs2.8 billion and has a pending bill. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this framework as guided by the Senate will help all counties to have uniform legislation, so that there is no question as to whether the lawyer should be five, ten, 15 or 20 years. This law gives a standard. There will be no question as to whether the lawyer or advocate who is hired to this position is an executive. This is because we have given him a higher platform than a county executive. There will be no question of the governor hiring and firing him when he is elected because we have provided for a six-year term, which is longer than the election term. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Proceed, Sen. Olekina.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me an opportunity to make some brief comments on the importance of having a County Attorney. If you take the report of the Controller of Budget for all the 47 counties, you will realize---

As I was saying, if you take the report of the Controller of Budget and look at the last five years, you will be astonished at the amount of money which was used by The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Proceed, Sen. Omogeni.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. First, I thank the people behind the thought of coming up with the Office of the County Attorney Bill (Senate Bills No. 3 of 2018). I also thank the Committee for the considerations they have had on this very important Bill. I also acknowledge that the coming up of this Bill is a step towards full realisation of devolution. This is because, when we passed the Constitution of 2010, our intention was to have two governments in one country. Since the national Government has the Office of the Attorney-General that advises the Executive, it is also good that we empower our governors with a fully-fledged Office of the County Attorney that can render advice to our governors. We have had a number of challenges in the past in terms of Bills that had been generated by our county assemblies. I have no doubt that once each county government has a fully-fledged Office of the County Attorney, we will see good quality of Bills from our county assemblies. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I support this Bill with some reservations. This is because, if you look at the qualification of the Attorney-General that serves our country, he is somebody with enormous experience. He enjoys a lot of respect within the legal profession. I have my reservations as to what level of experience we need for somebody who should occupy the Office of the County Attorney. I have looked at Clause 5 and we have put an experience of seven years. If you read Article 156 of the Constitution, the Office of the Attorney-General of the country is occupied by somebody who is qualified to be appointed as the Chief Justice of the Republic of Kenya. I propose that the least qualification that we should take for this very important office is to, at least, pick somebody who is qualified to be appointed as a Judge of the High Court of Kenya. If you look at the kind of responsibilities that we have placed in this office, it requires somebody who is an all-round and well experienced Attorney. He should be somebody who will be able to advise the governor on what kind of contracts he or she The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Hon. Lusaka): Hon. Senators, you recall I had informed you that we did not have the requisite number to proceed to a division under Order No.8. I now confirm that we do have numbers. I, therefore, direct that we suspend debate on Order No.10 and proceed on Division on Order No.8; once concluded, we shall return to the debate.

The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Hon. Lusaka): We shall proceed to vote and we direct that the division bell be rung for two minutes

Hon. Members, I now direct that the doors be locked and the Bar drawn.

You can now log in and start voting.

Hon. Members, the results of the Division are as follows:-

Hon. Senators, I now direct that the doors be unlocked and the Bar drawn)

Hon. Senators, we will resume our debate on Order No.10

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand to support this Bill as well because nowadays all matters are legal. There is nothing you can do which does not have a legal implication and legal fees are always very expensive. So, the idea of having a county attorney is important. The two speakers who have spoken have highlighted specific areas which are key and quite helpful in enhancing this Bill. It therefore becomes an instrumental Bill for the functioning of county governments. This is one of the Bills that will devolve functions that have been held at the national level to the county level. It therefore, becomes county governance which is very critical and one of the Bills that devolves functions that have been held at a national level to the county level. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the County Attorney will also give legal advice to the County Executive who will have a chance to look at the issues and figure out whether those are the important legal issues and get the necessary advice. The County Attorney also represent the executives in court, because before, we had various people representing counties in court. This will also create a level of systemacy so that it become easy to follow up on a case. I can imagine the level of chaos that must have been there when different people are representing the county; one lawyer comes with one idea, another lawyer comes with The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker. I rise to support this Bill. From the outset, I will support any Bill or any move that seeks to devolve offices, services and money to the people. This is one such Bill that intends to devolve the services of the Attorney General, which is in line with our devolution goals. We had an eye-opener when we visited Trans Nzoia, Busia and Bungoma counties as the Committee on Delegated Legislation. We had a discussion with the relevant committees on delegated legislation and they told us that they do not understand their mandate as committees on delegated legislation. It came to our mind that if we had attorneys in the counties, it would be so easy for them to give them legal guidance and interpretation as to their mandate as provided for by the law. Therefore, the need to have legal advice and chief legal officers in the counties is something that we cannot overlook. It is a requirement that is very important to the counties. Mr. Temporary Speaker, you can imagine what happens when they do not have somebody to oversee the enforcement of the by-laws and the laws that they pass. Legal minds within the counties would give advice with regard to where the law is good and where it is not good. In fact, legal counsels will also help them in terms of the quality of the laws that they pass as assemblies. Therefore, this is important as it will help them to draft good laws that are of good quality and pass the test of time if we have that kind of law. You are aware that we have had county assemblies passing laws that are contrary to natural justice and even the supreme law of the land. This is because of the lack of necessary legal guidance within the assemblies. So, this Bill will ensure that they have the necessary backup for them to do the drafting. We have drafters in the National Assembly and the Senate. In fact, some of our clerks are lawyers. This has an impact on the quality of the service that we get from our own secretariat and the legal directorate. We have a directorate which helps with legal issues and drafting. This helps in shaping the law into what you want it to be and serve the people. The same set up should be replicated in the county. Therefore, this particular The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Can you kindly call this House to order? We cannot hear what the Senator, who is contributing, is saying. We want to follow debate on this important Bill.

Order! Order, Hon. Senators. You need to consult in law tones. Continue, Sen. Pareno.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, sometimes we address empty seats and when they are not empty, there is too much noise. Thank you for protecting the integrity of this House, so that Members can address people who are listening when they are around. Sometimes, many of them are not around and you end up talking to yourself. I was submitting that sometimes county assemblies act in excess of their powers and overstep their mandate. We saw laws that touch on chicken and what we think is the very basics of humanity. Therefore, with a unit that helps in legal guidance and attorneys in the counties, we will have quality service for the people in the counties. Already, some counties have attorneys, for they have hired lawyers but when one visits the counties, they realize that the lawyers feel so insecure. This is because they are hired with no security of tenure or no proper terms that are under any structure. In fact, the counties are unable to attract quality services because the lawyers feel that they are in today but when the next governor comes in, he brings in a new lot of people and those who do not have security of tenure have to leave for their home. It is good that we create a structure and a law that governs the office of attorneys so as to have quality lawyers being attracted to the counties. I have seen cases where they have been put at a good grade and if that is done, the office of the attorney will be equivalent to the office of the executive and that is not bad. This law will definitely guarantee and attract lawyers to sit in the county assemblies. The lawyers will also help in development of their policies. We need a legal mind when developing policies that govern our people. We also need to look at proper remuneration for you cannot create an office of the County Attorney and then fail to remunerate them. Lawyers are on high demand in this country and if you do not remunerate them well, even if we have this law, they will shift and go for greener pastures. The remuneration bit should be looked into. A good package will attract them and that will help the counties to be run in a better way. This law will also guarantee that we protect the offices of the County Attorney from political interference because at the moment, an elected governor brings his team and walks out with them as the other person comes in with his team. This kind of law will guarantee that these offices are created by law and not on an individual’s whims. Therefore, you cannot walk in and walk out the way you want. This law will be some sort of security of tenure. It will give some semblance of security as the officers are appointed. Clause 8 allows the County Attorney to be enjoined in a suit that the county is interested in, other than being ambushed. We have had a lot of cases where one finds The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I do not know the reason as to why Sen. Wambua is protesting. He should read the Standing Orders regarding the office of the Senate Majority Leader and the entitlements of the same office. I know that I have 60 minutes to speak but because of the interest that my colleagues have, I will only speak for about 10 minutes. This is a very important Bill that was developed by and now adopted by the Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights for purpose of equipping the counties. For the sake of the new Senators, the history of this Bill was as a result of what happened in Kericho County and I hope that the Senator of Kericho County will listen to this very keenly. The Governor of Kericho County faced impeachment in this House and the basis of that impeachment was because he had bad legal advice on public-private investment agreements that he entered into which was with regard to solar panels and so forth. The Senate and the Committee that was chaired by Sen. Murungi established that the Governor of Kericho was culpable for committing acts of omission and commission. The only reason as to why the Senate left him scot-free was because the Committee came to the conclusion that the threshold for removal of governor was not met. The Committee came to the conclusion that there is weakness in the counties in so far as legal advice is concerned and that most of the counties do not have qualified in-house lawyers who can advise the county executive to perform its functions as per the law. As a result, the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights that was chaired by Sen. Wako and had Sen. Murungi together with myself, came up with this Bill to the extent that we must create and institutionalize a proper legal framework known as the Office of the County Attorney. This is a very important office when it comes to protection of the interests of the people of each of our counties at the county level. It mirrors the office of the Attorney- General and that is why it is called the County Attorney. The job of the Attorney-General at the national level is to give advice to the Presidency including advice on the viability and constitutionality of legislation that is passed in the Senate and National Assembly. By the time the President is assenting to a Bill, the Attorney-General will have played a very The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Sen. Enock Wambua, you have the Floor.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this Bill. First of all, I thank the Chairperson and Members of the Standing Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights for bringing this Bill on the Floor of the House for debate. It is true as other Senators have pronounced themselves on his matter that the Auditor-General has found many county governments culpable for huge spending on bills arising from procurement of legal services. This Bill is good for two important reasons. One, the establishment of the office of the County Attorney will help to reduce and manage the costs that county governments The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for finally giving me this chance. From the outset, I support this Bill although I have many reservations not extremely material to the content of this Bill but generally about many things that I will elaborate. Let me put to context my line of thought but I mean no offence to my friends and colleagues who are lawyers. I have a lot of respect for them and some of my best friends are lawyers. However, I have never found a line of profession so self-preserving and self-absorbed as the legal profession. In many of our constitutional commissions, out of the maybe 15 or 16 provisions, you will find that the chairperson must be from a legal background. This is even for commissions that have absolutely no legal work that they do. The Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (IEBC) is a perfect example and we spoke about it here when we were amending the electoral laws earlier on this year. Where they find that it is clearly stated that the chairperson, despite the fact that most of his work is of arithmetic The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Let us have Sen. Shiyonga.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to support this Bill on the creation of the Office of the County Attorney at the county level. Just as my colleagues have said, creation of employment in this country is wanting. The creation of this function, with the combination of the County Attorney, the County Solicitor and a member of the legal counsel in all the 47 counties is a large number of people that will contribute to employment opportunities in this country. With these skilled minds being employed at the county level where they are going to work and deliver services that we need, it will be of great importance to our country. We look forward to this Bill going through, so that this employment can be achieved. Hiring, especially the standardised legal services that we need in these counties, is very expensive. The passage of this Bill will salvage a large amount of money that has gone to unnecessary and short-term measure of hiring these services. It is my plea that we support this Bill fully so that we can limit the expenses of hiring these services in our counties as it currently is. Madam Temporary Speaker, there is so much money that has been deviated that needs to go to the development of services and projects in our counties. With the passage of this Bill, the money being allocated to this service will be put on the projects that are really wanting in our counties; hence development will be experienced. We shall achieve optimum services which will build the economy of this country through the services and functions of the county governments. Prevention is better than cure. We have seen cases come from the county level to the Senate, some of which are wanting, especially when it comes to impeachment of governors. It is with this in mind that quick and efficient services that will guide the county governments, especially in the legal sector, will be facilitated to avoid such being brought to the Senate, in spite of us doing the oversight role. Some of these disputes will be sorted out at the county level with these expert offices that we are creating. Hence, we shall have better service provision at the county level. Madam Temporary Speaker, I request the mover of this Bill to look at the issue of nepotism. With such functions being created at the county level, there is a great opportunity for nepotism to take place. It is important for us to put a caveat in this Bill to avoid nepotism. When we are creating this service at the county level, we need to put a stern warning so that those who will be involved in the recruitment of these officers will The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Let us have Sen. (Prof.) Ongeri.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. First of all I want to lend my weight on the Office of the Attorney County Bill (Senate Bills No.3 of 2018), because I am a strong believer in devolution. People have not appreciated that there are two levels of government-the national and the county. All the activities that are rendered by the national Government are a mirror of what is being done at the county governments. The institution of the Attorney- General in this Republic has been there since Independence to date. The institution of the County Attorney that we are trying to create today will only be an institution for the last few months if we pass this Bill. There is, therefore, a tremendous need for capacity building to enable the County Attorney to perform services which are equivalent to what the Attorney- General does at the national Government. I thank the Senate Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights for seeing it fit that one of the major functions of the County Attorney will be one of advising the governor on various issues as enumerated in Clause 6 (a), (b) and (d) of this Bill. It says- “The County Attorney- (a) Is the principal legal advisor to the county executive committee; (b) shall attend meetings of the county executive Committee as an

member of the executive committee; (d) shall advise the departments in the county executive on legislative and other legal matters.” Madam Temporary Speaker, I am a Member of the Senate Committee on County Public Accounts and Investment. One of the things I am seeing is the huge expenditure that is being incurred by the county executive on legal services. Some of it has formed part of the pending bills and is going to be very difficult to clear from the books of the county governments. The establishment of this service to the county governments will be a critical element in ensuring that whatever legal services may be required, either from within or hired, are in such a measure that is commensurate with the resources available within the county governments. There have been runaway costs in legal services. As a Senate, we must clump down on what happens in these areas. I have some difficulty in Clause 7(c) on the word “summon”. I remember there was a time when we had a situation in this country where we had special District Officers (Dos) who became more powerful than the District Commissioners (DCs). I hope we are not creating another monster through this legal framework, where we will get people summoning others at will and when they feel like. It is a good thing to summon people for purposes of explaining issues. I hope the Senate Committee on Justice, Legal Affair and Human Rights will go back and look at the regulations that govern this summoning and read them jointly with the Standing Orders of the county assemblies. That will make a lot of meaning so that the word “summon” is clearly defined; how it should be done, The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Proceed, Sen. (Dr.) Langat Christopher Andrew.

Thank you very much, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. I had really waited for it. I waited for it yesterday and it never came. However, I thank you that I have an opportunity to add my voice to this particular Bill. First, I agree with Clause 5(2)(a) on the number of years that will make the requirement for the office bearer of the County Attorney. This is the seven years that somebody had said is not enough. The current paradigm shifts in the places of work no longer rely on experience so much. Experience is today questioned because some people are experienced in doing the wrong things. What the world relies on today is innovation, research and consultation more than experience. I tend to think that in order to also develop our young people in the field of legal matters, that seven years is important. I add my voice on the functions of this County Attorney. When we were in the Third Annual Legislative Summit in Mombasa, there was an outcry. The Deputy President noted that most of our counties are unnecessarily spending a lot of money on the payment of advocates who are exploiting them. It is our mandate in Article 96 (1) of the Constitution to protect our counties. This particular Bill is timely because it in line with our mandate of protecting our counties. If we allow our counties to keep on hiring anybody to intervene on their issues, they will be exploited. This Bill will save our counties on the matters of being exploited by the advocates who are overcharging them. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Proceed, Sen. (Dr.) Milgo.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I also rise to support this Bill. From the word go, it shows that there has been lack of legal advice in the various counties. In any case, this has led to what we have been observing in our counties, particularly, in the first county governments. I wish to support this Bill because of a number of issues. First, this Bill, whose objective is to set the Office of the County Attorney, provides for the standards and the framework for recruiting qualified staff. I have an imagination that, because of this framework throughout the 47 counties, all the county attorneys shall have the same qualifications. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Sen. Pareno): Yes, Sen. Orengo.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I rise to support this Bill. Before I say anything on the Bill directly, I want to repeat what the Senate Majority Leader said here earlier; that the Senate is an institution which is recognised by the Constitution. Its powers, functions and mandate are clearly spelt in the Constitution. But, more importantly, any Act which emanates from any of the Houses does not have the force of law, unless it is enacted by Parliament. There is nothing in the Constitution that talks about an Act, which has got the force of law that is enacted by the National Assembly. There is nothing like that in the Constitution. Just like in the Constitution, we cannot enact a law until there is a Presidential assent although we are Parliament. The constitutional requirement for an assent is not a matter which was invented recently by constitution makers. It is something which has characterised all modern constitutions, including constitutions which emerge from monarchies. There cannot be an Act of Parliament that is not assented to by the President. Similarly, it is the Constitution itself which says that for an Act or Statute to have the force of law it must be passed by Parliament; not the National Assembly or the Senate. The reason I am talking about this issue is that if we do not respect institutions and the Constitution, then we have no business being lawmakers. We must live by the laws that create us and the institution that we serve in. Secondly, we must also respect the procedures which are well established in the Constitution and the Standing Orders. It is for this reason that there is some co-relation and harmony between the Standing Orders of the National Assembly and the Senate. We cannot act separately; there must be constitutional harmony in the conduct of our work as components of the legislature. I join the Senate Majority Leader in saying that this is the matter that we may not push, for the moment, intensively, but there may be a time when we have to put our foot down. When we put our foot down, as the Senate, and decided to The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for the opportunity to contribute to the Bill. This is a very important Bill. At the national level, the head of the Executive is the President and at the county level, the head of the executive is the governor. The President has the Attorney-General as the chief legal advisor and a county governor also needs a legal advisor. So, this Bill has come at the right time having been long overdue. Counties have been paying exorbitant fees in legal bills. Some of the pending bills we have heard that counties owe are because of the huge legal fees that have to be paid to the lawyers. With the Office of the County Attorney, the amount will be reduced and some of that money could be channeled to development projects. With the Office of the County Attorney, we will also see an improvement in the kind of legislation that comes from the county assemblies and that is laudable. County policies will also be checked by the Office of the County Attorney, so that as policies are implemented, they will be sure to have adhered to the Constitution and the clogs in the development process will be reduced. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Hon. Senators, I see no further request. I, therefore, call upon the Mover to reply.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I thank all Senators who have contributed. We have noted their concerns and we will ensure---

I do not know why Sen. Olekina is excited. Is it because the World Cup is about to begin or because the opening match is a few minutes away? We have noted all concerns that have been raised by my colleagues. Since we want to improve the quality of legislative framework, we will endeavour to do our best. I agree largely with what most Senators have said concerning this Bill. As I indicated earlier that under Article 174 of the Constitution whose Part 1 is about Objects and Principles of Devolved Government, we should ensure that we always move with speed and assist the counties. I think one of the challenges counties are facing, apart from corruption and mismanagement of resources, is weak legislative and policy framework. I want to talk about the issue of experience. I know there are diverse opinions when it comes to experience that they need but the Committee proposed that it should be five years and not seven years. Secondly on the issues of money, we should put it that it “shall” and not “may” so that we protect the House. Another point that has been raised is that Senators should be included during presentation of annual reports. I agree that Senators are a key pillar because this will essentially form the basis of oversight that Members of County Assemblies (MCA) and Senators undertake at any given point. Madam Temporary Speaker, I want to agree that there are many important guidelines, comments or input that most of the colleagues have indicated. This Bill will go a long way. I want to agree with Members like Sen. Ledama ole Kina who is a member of the CPAIC and has said that counties are incurring a lot of expenses in outsourcing legal services and litigation fees. We are very grateful that the Chair is chairing the session very well and we are very impressed. One of the pending bills, and we discussed this during the Fifth Annual Devolution Conference and the Legislative Summit, and agreed that one of the most common ways in which money is misused in our counties is on legal fees and legal services. We do not have a proper law that guides such matters. I agree with the Senator The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Hon. Senators, I order that the putting of the question be deferred.

I also order that further business be deferred to the next Order Paper.

Hon. Senators, having concluded the business of the day, it is now time to adjourn the House. The Senate, therefore, stands adjourned until Tuesday, 19th June, 2018, at 2.30 p.m. The Senate rose at 6.05 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.