Member for Naivasha, please, proceed!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay on the Table of the House a Report on the joint Departmental Committee---
Order, Member for Naivasha! We are not yet there. You put your request at Order No.3! That will be erroneous. We cannot take Order No.4 at Order No.3.
Most obliged, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Very well. Next Order!
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Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:- THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Committee of the Implementation on Charterhouse Bank Ltd. laid on the Table of the House today, Wednesday 9th January, 2013. ADOPTION OF REPORT ON INSPECTION OF ONTULILI AND LOWER IMENTI FORESTS
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:- THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Departmental Committee on the inspection of Ontulili and Lower Imenti forests, ownership of National Irrigation Board (NIB), Mushuarata and Mwea Trust Land in Meru, Kirinyaga and Embu counties laid o n the Table of the House today Wednesday January 9th, 2013. ADOPTION OF THE REPORT ON ILLEGAL ACQUISITION OF BUHAYO/NASEWA LAND BY MUMIAS SUGAR COMPANY
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:-
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Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:- THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security on the consideration of the case of assault of a Kenyan employee by the Managing Director of Shelter Afrique.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security the following Question by Private Notice. (a) In the light of the answer given by the Minister for Finance on Thursday 27th December, 2012, could the Minister clarify whether it is true or not that the Banking Fraud and Investigations Department between the years 2004 and 2007 conducted a special investigation of Charterhouse Bank with the main focus being on economic crimes, money laundering and violations of the Banking Act and if this is true, the Minister to provide copies of the investigations reports and full details of the crimes, offences or violations established as having been committed by Charterhouse Bank? (b) Whether the Banking Fraud and Investigations Department has ever been directed to undertake similar investigations against other banks and, if so, provide a list of the banks and copies of the reports indicating the violations including any action taken?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) I wish to confirm that the Banking Fraud and Investigations Department has been conducting investigations on Charterhouse Bank on allegations of violation of Banking Act. This was occasioned by a complaint by Ms. Rose Ndethu of the Central Bank of Kenya (CBK), Supervision Department to Banking Fraud and Investigation Unit in December 2006. In her complaint, she alleged that the bank had on several occasions contravened the Banking Act and CBK prudential guidelines. An inquiry file No.53/2007 was opened pursuant to that complaint which was later forwarded to the Attorney-General’s Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) office then for perusal and advice.
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Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I thank the Assistant Minister for his good answer. However, this Question arose out of the answer given by the Minister for Finance. The Assistant Minister was required to confirm whether from 2004 to 2007, a special investigation team focusing on economic crimes, money laundering and violation of the Banking Act, was constituted. He should also confirm whether the Banking Fraud Investigations Unit (BFIU) investigated money laundering and economic crimes from 2004 to 2007. Further, he should confirm whether the banking violations found were actual. Could he state the sections which were violated? Further to part (b) of the Question, I would like him to confirm that it is now true that the BFIU has never been directed to undertake similar investigations against any other bank in Kenya to date.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, indeed, I confirm that the CBK instructed the BFIU to carry out specific investigations of Charterhouse Bank. Specific violations were
What is it, the Member for Kilome? I have seen you want to intervene on a point of order.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Assistant Minister not to answer the question? The Minister for Finance said that the special investigations were focusing on economic crimes and money laundering. So, I asked him to confirm whether the BFIU investigated Charterhouse Bank on money laundering and economic crimes between 2004 and 2007. It is just that simple.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have already confirmed that Charterhouse Bank was investigated within that period.
Within 2004 and 2007?
Between 2004 and 2005. The results of the investigations are there. A file is already there pending prosecution. I have done that as much. I am even ready to be a little bit specific if you give me time.
Order! The hon. Member was pressing for confirmation as to whether or not the CBK investigated two specific areas over a given period, and you have answered that. So, you have to stop there. Yes, the Member for Lari.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Assistant Minister has repeatedly informed this House that the Office of the Registrar of Companies has not been co-operative in terms of supplying the required information. What action is the Ministry instituting against this non-compliant office?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, you will recall that I cited a letter dated 4th January from the Office of the Registrar-General of Companies addressed to the BFIU. In the letter, they said they are unable to trace the business file and any other details that could help them determine who the directors are. This letter is very recent and it reached me today. I was hoping that I would bring the matter to the attention of the Attorney- General and, maybe, with his assistance, he could make his officers comply and go a little bit further to provide this information.
Hon. Mwau, do you want to rise on a point of order?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Thank you very much, but my question is: Would it be in order for the Assistant Minister not to respond to part (a) of my Question,
Hon. Mwau, let us try and move systematically. First, you are raising a point of order, asking if the Assistant Minister would be right in failing to answer the first part of your Question. Just be specific. What part of part (a) has he not answered?
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. the Question says:- “In light of the answer given by the Minister for Finance on Thursday 27th December, 2012, could the Minister confirm whether it is true or not that the Banking Fraud and Investigations Department between 2004 and 2007 conducted a special investigation of Charterhouse Bank with the main focus being on economic crimes and money laundering--- That is the part I want him to answer.
Mr. Assistant Minister, do you want to have another go at it?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, regarding the first issue, I answered “yes, we carried out a specific inspection between 2004 and 2007. Regarding---
Order, Mr. Assistant Minister! All of you are using different words. Let us just be clear and be calm about this. The hon. Member for Kilome is asking whether the CBK “investigated” and you are using the word “inspected.” So, let us see where we are.
My apology, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Both words are there, but the correct position is “investigation.”
So, you confirm that investigations were conducted?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we carried out investigations. I have with me what was specifically being investigated and the section of the Banking Act was being violated. If the hon. Member wants me to indicate to him, for example, that one of the areas which was being investigated and which touches on money laundering has to do with violation of foreign exchange guidelines, Section 4. It was reported that a number of foreign exchange transactions above US$ 50,000 had no supporting documentation and were not reported to the CBK as per requirements. That, in many cases, the bank colluded with its clients to split receipts and payments to US$10,000 or the equivalent in other foreign currencies to circumvent the CBK reporting requirements. That, also, Foreign Exchange Guideline Section 5.2 where the bank purported to lend one Mr. Paulo Santanino’s company, Tradex of Italy US$60,000 without appropriate documentation, security declaration of the source of the repayments as required et cetera . So, all these things are listed and I cannot read all of them. These are the violations which are there. With your permission, I can table them.
You may proceed, Mr. Assistant Minister.
The Member for Kilome, you had a second point of order. You can now take the Floor. You will still have an opportunity to ask the final question, but you caught my eye for point of order.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Assistant Minister to mislead the House that between 2004 and 2007, the BFIU of the CID investigated money laundering while this House is aware that money laundering legislation was enacted and came into force by June, 2010. Would it be in order for him to mislead the House?
Mr. Assistant Minister, that would be valid if you did so.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is true that the specific law on money laundering was enacted just the other day. However, according to banking prudential guidelines and the Banking Act on the issue, there were specific guidelines on reporting of foreign exchange earned and foreign exchange that is leaving. These were not complied with and it was deemed to amount to money laundering.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, what is this crime that Charterhouse Bank has done so grave and so big that it is beyond remedy by Government, given that one of the reasons that the Assistant Minister has given - money laundering of US$60,000? We have tabled reports in this House where another commercial bank has done the same. We have shown that they did US$772,000, which is equivalent to about Kshs2.8 billion. Yet no such action was taken against the bank. What is this? We need to know this so that, at least, as we break, we can go knowing that they did an immortal sin which is beyond remedy by this Government or any future Government.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I find it very difficult to respond to the question by hon. Mututho because it becomes personal. I do not think the Government, in any way, is against Charterhouse Bank. The Government is only dealing with issues. There might have been other banks that flouted the Banking Act regulations. But in this reference, we are talking about specific omissions and commissions, which have been investigated.
What is it, the Member for Naivasha? You want to rise on a point of order?
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Assistant Minister in order to mislead this House that there were specific issues that were found in Charterhouse Bank and yet, the same issues have been found with other banks and they have not been closed? Is he in order?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I believe that question can best be directed to the Central Bank of Kenya (CBK) and the Minister for Finance. I am dealing with an issue where the Banking Fraud Police who belong to my department were asked to investigate Charterhouse Bank and the fraud that was going on therein.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in response to part (b) of my Question, I would like him to confirm that Banking Fraud Investigations Unit (BFIU) has never been directed to carry similar investigations since its inception.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have already answered that. I am not aware of any other case where the BFIU has been directed by CBK to conduct investigations. But you see the mandate of the CBK is to carry out investigations and I believe that is it.
asked the Minister for Forestry and Wildlife:- (a) whether he is aware that Master Zadock Omondi, a pupil at Dr. Williams Primary School, in Rusinga Island was killed by a hippopotamus on 14th February, 2012; (b) what steps the Government is taking to ensure that the family of the deceased is compensated; and, (c) what measures have been put in place to address human- wildlife conflict.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) Indeed, when this Question was filed early last year, this particular case of Master Zadock Omondi had not reached us. But I am privy to information that the case reached our office late last year. (b) The processing has begun all the way from the Homa Bay District. We hope that within the third quarter of this financial year, this compensation will be processed and dispensed with. (c) The Government is concerned about the rising cases of human/wildlife conflict and through the concerned institution - that is Kenya Wildlife Service (KWS) - we have implemented a variety of mitigation measures, including fencing of protected and non-protected wildlife areas, use of geographical information system (GIS), embedded animals collars to monitor problematic animal species such as elephants and lions, public awareness barazas on the importance of wildlife conservation, community support through community projects funded by wildlife income, functional human/wildlife conflict database collection to monitor and develop appropriate mitigation measures and translocation of problematic animal species.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is now one year since Master Zadock Omondi was killed by a hippopotamus in Rusinga Island. Why does it take the Ministry so long to process compensation? He was a very young boy whose life was cut short and the family has gone through a very distressful time. Such cases are very common in that area. What can he do to hasten compensation? Just for information, the incident was reported in Mbita?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is an unfortunate delay and I regret that it took that long. However, we are trying to fast track it, so that before the end of this third quarter, we can process the compensation and send it down to his family.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, while the Assistant Minister was answering the Question, he said that it has taken one year to consider that case. So many cases have been reported in this House where wild animals, especially the hippopotamus, are killing
Mr. Speaker, Sir, indeed, it has been a challenge. The human/wildlife conflict has been on the increase on all sectors, particularly outside the protected areas. Some of the constraints that we have faced within the Government and in this House are in terms of resources and capacity. We are trying to address them now. We are asking the Treasury that in the coming financial year, they may need to allocate us additional resources so that we can recruit - in the next two years - about 1,000 wildlife rangers. The capacity that is there now is a bit limiting. Small arms are also the other biggest challenge. You may have noted an incident that occurred two days ago where 11 elephants were poached in a protected area. That is basically because of the capacity that we have. But we are doing all the best we can with the limited resources to try and support. Sometimes, some cases of compensation take long because there are certain documentations that are demanded to accompany the claims which, more or less, include a police report and a death certificate. The processing is done through a committee in the district chaired by the DC. That process, sometimes, takes about three months. But because of the red tape within the Government, sometimes it takes a bit longer. Reports are not sent to our Ministry on time. However, I want to regret this particular case. As I gave the assurance, within this third quarter of this financial year, I will follow it up personally to make sure that the compensation reaches the next of kin.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wonder why the Assistant Minister is telling us that the investigations started at Homa Bay. I know that Mbita has an identify and should have its district headquarters at Mbita, unless he wants to further delay the process.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I understand. But we only have an office in Homa Bay Town. We have a KWS office. That is normally the first point of filling up the forms. However, it is the committee that is in Mbita that sits with the officer from Homa Bay. He or she is the secretary of that committee. It is supposed to recommend the compensation. It is then forwarded to the Ministry’s compensation committee. I regret that. It is a problem because we may not have enough personnel to put in every district. That is why we have structured them to cover certain conservation areas.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, indeed, the Assistant Minister is correct that the first point of report is Mbita. But the ultimate office that the matter was taken to is in Homa Bay. I am grateful him because he has said that he will take up this matter personally. It is now one year since that happened. Therefore, I would like to ask whether the Assistant Minister could give me an indication as to when he thinks this matter will be finalized, so that the family can relax.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I hope that within early February, 2013, we will have finalized this matter. This matter has not yet reached the Wildlife Compensation Committee at the Ministry level. Immediately after this, I am going to follow up this matter and make sure that it is fast-tracked. Please, bear with me. If you have any
Mr. Speaker, Sir, yesterday, we partially dealt with this matter. I informed the hon. Member that consultations were being made. The legal opinion from the Attorney-General was required. Today, in the morning, I whipped my officers both in the Legal Department and the Human Resource Department and they got in touch with the Attorney-General’s Office and also the Public Service Commission. The answer they came up with is that a salary is something that is earned. It is not something that can be paid out for any other reason. The advice I want to offer is that our channel has been exhausted. There is nothing more we can say about the payment. We, therefore, advise Mr. Obwoma to seek redress from courts.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as the Assistant Minister closes the channels at his disposal, records held in his office show that Mr. Jeremiah Obwoma was working all the way until his case was determined. It is the same Ministry that reinstated him to work after they found him not guilty of any offence that would have him removed from the Civil Service. Could he indicate to the House what channels have been exhausted and yet, it is the same office which wrote a letter to the chief asking him to show cause why he should not be retired? It is the same office that reinstated him and let him continue serving and yet, it cannot pay him for the period of six years that he served.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think we are going backwards. Mr. Jeremiah Obwoma was retired in public interest. For six years, he remained retired. He made the first appeal to the PSC for reinstatement and it declined. He made the second appeal and on the basis of it, he was reinstated. The period under contention is the period when Mr. Obwoma was not in active service; when he was retired. For any other period prior to that and all the time Mr. Obwoma has served the public, he has been paid. As much as the hon. Member would like Mr. Obwoma to be
Dr. Monda, you want to rise on a point of order. But from that answer given, I think the matter really ought to settle. However, let me hear you.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, is the Assistant Minister in order to purport to have retired Mr. Obwoma and yet, Mr. Obwoma was asked to show cause why he should not be retired? That was not a retirement; it was a show-cause letter. When the appeal was made, it meant that Mr. Obwoma had not been retired. Is she in order to mislead the House and hand over this matter that is within his docket to the courts?
Mr. Khang’ati, maybe, you want to make some reaction to that. Otherwise, I understand your position from the Chair.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, with all due respect, the hon. Member is not aware of how the Government operates. It engages and fires its people. We have a code of regulations. When you are given a show-cause letter, either you are suspended or interdicted. In such circumstances, you are paid half salary. However, when you are retired in public interest as Mr. Obwoma was and, as the records indicate, then you are not paid any salary. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in any case, this House is not the only avenue available for people who feel aggrieved to get some settlement. I believe what has been recommended is the best alternative. Let him go to court and, surely, he will get justice there.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, l beg to reply. (a) Yes, I am aware that there is no scheme of service, but the Government appreciates and recognizes the work performed by village elders in support of chiefs and assistant chiefs at the grassroots level countrywide. Indeed, village elders or headmen, as they are popularly known, provide an essential link in service delivery for the chiefs and assistant chiefs and, by extension, the Government at large. Parliament passed an amendment to the Chiefs Act in 2010 to provide for appointment of village elders and their remuneration as may be determined by the Minister. Those amendments came in the face of ongoing restructuring of the Provincial Administration as envisaged in Section 17 of the Sixth Schedule of the Constitution, 2010. In this connection, the position of village elders will be considered in the process of restructuring.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am encouraged by the answer by the Assistant Minister that the Government appreciates the services rendered by the village elders for as long as the Provincial Administration has been in existence, without any form of compensation. In the envisaged restructuring, could he indicate the criteria that he will use in appointing the village elders?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not able to indicate the criteria as of now because we are still in the middle of passing this law and we require the co-operation of all hon. Members. We have proposed an amendment that will provide for the opportunity for the Cabinet Secretary to consider the services of these village elders. So, at that time when the law is passed and the Cabinet Secretary is in place under the new Constitution, then conditions for operation and remuneration may be worked out. You will realize that these people are not on a permanent basis like other civil servants, but are called upon as and when they are required to resolve conflicts and provide solutions that will assist chiefs at the village level.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as long as I have known, the village elders have been in existence. So, how are they supposed to survive when they have no remuneration? Are they supposed to go looking for money from people and yet, they are respectable people in the community?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is true that we have not been very fair to the village elders and village ladies. It is also true that it is the chiefs who have been supporting these people with the communities that they operate within. Sometimes this has not been happening. It is also true that consideration is now going to be given and a budget be put in place so that they get some allowances.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, my concern is on the naming; for example, are the village elders the same as those in towns who are called wazee wa mtaa? Are they going to be equally included in the new law which we are waiting for?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Wazee wa mitaa will also be considered.
Is Mr. Nyamai not here yet? That Question is dropped.
asked the Minister for Education:-
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) I am aware that there is a shortage of Islamic Religious Education teachers in both primary and secondary schools in the country. The Ministry has put the following measures in place to alleviate the national shortage of teachers in general, including Islamic Religious Education:- (i) continue to employ teachers in proportion with the existing teachers shortage as funds become available; (ii) sensitize and encourage the youth on Islamic Religious Education and training opportunities in colleges to ensure adequate teachers are available; (iii) liaise with Islamic Religious Association to sponsor many students in the colleges. (b)There are no scholarships for students in the diploma teachers training colleges. The Islamic Religious Education subject has not been attracting applicants for training as teachers due to subject combination technicalities.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank the Assistant Minister for his answer. I would also like to inform him that we do have enough Islamic Religious Education teachers, but the problem is that the teachers are not employed by the Teachers Service Commission (TSC) and almost 95 per cent of them are being paid by the Parents- Teachers Association (PTA). How can he assist the same teachers so that they can be employed by the TSC?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is no discrimination in the hiring of teachers in any way whether they are going to teach Islamic Religious Education, Christian Religious Education or any subject. The problem we have applies to all subjects, that is, inadequate funds to employ teachers across the board. Once there is money, we will employ them across the board proportionately.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Minister has said that the Ministry is intending to employ teachers to alleviate the current shortage. When is the Ministry going to employ those teachers?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this financial year we employed teachers using the resources that the Government availed to the Ministry. Should the Government avail resources, once more or anytime, these resources will be used to employ more teachers.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on part (b), the Assistant Minister said that there are no scholarships for students in the diploma teachers training colleges. He said that the Islamic Religious Education has not been attracting applicants for training as teachers. Is he trying to tell us that if the applicants become more is he going to issue scholarships?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have two diploma colleges. However, we have no scholarships for students training in those colleges. They sponsor themselves. I
The next Question is by Mr. Kiptanui! Is Mr. Kiptanui not here yet? Question dropped.
asked the Minister Gender, Children and Social Development:- (a) to inform the House, how much money has been allocated to support people with disability in the 2012/2013 financial year; and, (b) whether he intends to enhance the allocations and what criteria will inform such review.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Kenyans passed a Constitution that anticipates affirmative action for persons with disabilities and people who are minorities. Why would the amount allocated to these categories of persons be the same for two years consequent on the back drop of a new Constitution?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is due to inadequate budgetary allocations from the Treasury.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Could the Assistant Minister indicate whether they have mapped out the country for persons with disabilities and, there is a criterion that they are using, particularly in Mbita?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have not so far mapped the country to identify exactly where all the beneficiaries would be. However, they are all in the 210 constituencies and increasing the number of beneficiaries is dependent on the increase in the amount of allocation that the Ministry expects to get from the medium-term expenditure projections.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. You have heard the Assistant Minister say that they have not mapped out the country to know where people with severe disabilities are in this country. I wonder how they distributed these resources if they did not do any mapping exercise in the country. Who are these beneficiaries and how did he get them? Is it that he just chose? He discriminated against and he is giving people in his constituency or how was he doing it? If he has not mapped the country, then he is not doing the right thing.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is not about the issue of mapping. These are people within the population. They are not just concentrated in one place or another. The cash transfer for persons with severe disabilities was started on a pilot project in 2010/2011 Financial Year in all the 210 constituencies with each constituency being awarded a quarter of ten beneficiaries then. In the 2011/2012 Financial Year, the number of beneficiaries was increased from ten to 70 in all the 210 constituencies. So, these people are all over the country. They are not in a particular area.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is shocking that the Assistant Minister can get funds from the Treasury without any data or mapping out the country. From his presentation, it appears as if there is no policy. How does he continue requesting for funds and getting support from this Parliament when he has no data, policy or anything? Could he tell us whether he will come up with a policy because the disabled people are all over the country?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is not true that we do not have data. As per the Population Census of 2009 the country had about 1,000,400 people with disabilities.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This Ministry is becoming notorious. This is the Ministry that handles the elderly’s stipend. This is the Ministry that handles the orphans and widows. This is the Ministry that also handles people with disabilities. Recently, we passed a Bill that required that everybody be incorporated in these programmes, but the Assistant Minister says now that he does not have data. Could he clarify to this House how many out of the one million persons he has talked about are from Ndhiwa Constituency and Homa Bay County, for that matter?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, with regard to how many are in Ndhiwa and Homa Bay, I may not answer because I was not prepared. I do not have that now. But if I went back to the office, I will come back with that information.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Assistant Minister has stated that the reason they are giving this allocation is because of the amount of money that is made available by the Treasury, whereas this is a constitutional indication in terms of how progressively these people should be supported. However, that is not the question I want to ask him. He has said that there were about 1,000 people with disabilities who were considered in a particular pilot project. However, he does not state how many of these people have severe disability. His answer indicates that the money was allocated to some
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the money we are talking about is all about people with severe disabilities and not just any other person. If a person has a cut finger, you would say that he has disability. Those are not the ones we are talking about, but people with severe disabilities.
asked the Minister for Lands:- (a) whether he is aware that Kutus Secondary School cannot access CDF funds to extend classrooms since Mr. Peter Gachoki, the son of the late Mr. Mburia Ngaragari, is claiming back the parcel of land LR No. Kabare/ Nyangati/703 where the school is located; (b) whether he is also aware that the late Mburia Ngaragari was given land parcel LR No. Marurumo Adj Sec/165 by Kerugoya Kutus Urban Council as compensation for Kabare/Nyangati/703 but the title deed was not surrendered; and, (c) what measures he will take to ensure that the title deed for LR No. Kabare/Nyangati/703 is revoked.
Where is the Minister for Lands? Hon. Chris Obure, will you hold brief for your colleague? I can see hon. Members are yearning for sanctions.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not quite able to explain this. I know that the Minister for Lands is a very serious man who takes the business of this House very seriously. I believe that there must be a strong reason he is not here. We will have to find out.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as much as I do not want to contravene the Standing Orders of this House by anticipating Debate, on today’s Order Paper, we have the Adjournment Motion. As we speak, this school cannot continue with operations because part of its land has been grabbed. If we were to break before the Minister gives us an answer that would mean that the school waits until the end of next term before it continues operation. My request is that we put enough sanctions against the Minister because the school cannot continue operating.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Minister, Chris Obure, to over emphasise the praise for the Minister for Lands on his absence in addressing this issue of the school which is fundamental before the closure of the House?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I appreciate the gravity of the situation in respect to Kutus Secondary School. However, we know that the Minister for Lands is one of the most active Members of this House. He has been in the forefront advocating for the House to be respected at all times. The fact that he is not here right now, I believe, there must be a strong reason he is not here. I seriously appeal to hon. Members to---
It is possible that the Minister has an explanation. I will want to give him the benefit of doubt. With regard as to whether or not the House will adjourn, the Member for Kirinyaga Central, you have the answer, yourself. If you invoke the provisions of the Standing Orders, you will be anticipating Debate. I do not think I want to go that way. I will, instead, direct that the Minister furnishes the Member for Kirinyaga Central with an answer and that he also supplies that answer to the Speaker of the National Assembly within the next five days. Notwithstanding the fate that befalls the House, the institution will continue. The Member for Kirinyaga Central, that is to ensure that you have an answer and that there is a remedy in place. Hon. Obure, please, convey this information to him. In the meantime, we hope that before we close business for today, he will be here and, perhaps, will proffer an acceptable explanation, including a possible answer at whatever point he may come in.
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir. That is a fair ruling.
We come to the end of Order No.6 and we will now from that point be guided by the first supplementary Order Paper which has been circulated and before we take the next order, hon. Members will recollect that yesterday I made directions with respect to conduct of business and I said that once an order is transacted, we will not revisit it because it is bad practice. I want to re-emphasise those directions but yet again I have been prevailed over to make an exception because there is a matter which really must be transacted in the event that perhaps this House is unable to deal with business for any reason whatsoever. So, I will allow us to go back to Order No.4 because of those exceptional circumstances.
Consequently, can we go back also to Order No.5?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:- THAT, this House adopts the report of the Departmental Committee on Education. Research and Technology on the Consideration of the Nomination of the
Fair enough. Next Order!
Do we have any Ministerial Statements which are due for delivery ready this afternoon? It will appear none. We will then move on to take requests for Ministerial Statements.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to request for a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Co-operative Development and Marketing on the irregular operations of Omoremi SACCO Society based in Keroka in Nyamira County. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the Ministerial Statement, I request the Minister to: (a) indicate if he is aware that many small-scale farmers from Nyamira and Kisii counties have not been paid their bonuses from last year that were channeled through the said Sacco; (b) also state the reason why the Sacco closed down immediately after receiving bonuses from the tea farmers in September, 2012; (c) if the Minister can undertake to instruct the management of the Sacco and the Sacco itself to refund the farmers and finally, (d) indicate the action the Government has taken against the officials and the Sacco itself. Mr. Speaker, Sir, even as I request this, if for any reason the House does not deal with matter, could you kindly make a ruling so that we can have an answer to you and to me indicating all these answers.
Where is the Minister for Co-operative Development and Marketing? Order, hon. Oyugi! I hope you are merely tweeting. I did not quite catch what you are doing but in the event that you are doing what I suspect, please refrain. We are close to the end. In our traditions they say: “A pot breaks at the door.” Please, do not break your pot. Hon. Obure, could you hold brief for your colleague?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Unfortunately, the Minister is not here but I will be prepared to convey any ruling you might wish to make on this.
Please, just convey that there is a request for a Ministerial Statement and if you can call the Minister, it is possible that the House will be sitting well into the night and if he can have that Statement before we close the sitting today. It will be appropriate that he comes to deliver it. So, just call him and let him know. That brings us then to the end of Order No.7. Next Order!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Procedural Motion:- THAT
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in seconding this Motion, I want to say that we have done extremely well so far and it will be most appropriate if we exercise some patience and understanding so that this House can get the full marks and nothing less. I second.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Procedural Motion:- THAT, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 107, this House orders that the publication period of the Supplementary Appropriation Bill (Bill No.92 of 2012) be reduced from 7 to 1 day. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I just wanted to highlight to the House that I am moving this with a correction. On the Order Paper, it reads Bill No.92 of 2012, but, indeed, it is Bill
Carry on, Member for Bobassi.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this Procedural Motion is a prerequisite. I second it.
Order, Member for Mt. Elgon. Just freeze!
Order, hon. Members! There is interest by the Member for Rangwe!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the Motion that in the interest of time, and for practical purposes, the days be reduced.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Supplementary Appropriation Bill, Bill No.1 of 2013, be now read a Second Time. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will be very brief. The main purpose of this Supplementary Appropriations Bill is basically to seek statutory approval from this august House for the
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in supporting the Motion, I want to take the opportunity to thank the Minister for Finance and say that he has done a great job. He has been very pragmatic, down to earth, approachable and accommodative. We must appreciate the work he has done. I also want to thank hon. Members, particularly those who are here at this particular time, for making great sacrifices to make sure that this important national assignment is completed. I want to point out the fact that even as we go to the general elections, the operations of the Government must continue. Even the elections themselves must be financed. Therefore, it is important for us to pass this Bill to ensure that we sustain our country and all the activities that we are engaged in. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am very pleased with the commitment shown by the Government in respect of the promises it made to teachers, the police and the citizens of this country. Those promises are being fulfilled. In this Supplementary Budget, there are provisions to ensure that those promises are fulfilled. A very important aspect of this supplementary budget is that there is provision to operationalise the county system of government. I am very happy that money has been made available to make sure that as soon as the elections are over, the new system of government will come into operation. Kenyans are looking forward to this new arrangement because we believe that it will enhance prosperity and that it will be for the benefit of everybody. It will reduce marginalisation and, therefore, we will have a better country. With those few remarks, I second.
Yes, Member for Rangwe.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to rise on a point of order first and then contribute to the Bill. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to, first of all, find out whether the Fiscal Bill is available. I have been running up and down frantically to get it but I have not seen it.
Minister for Finance, maybe, you want to quickly respond to that one. It should not occupy us unnecessarily.
Member for Rangwe, it is available. It has been tabled, if you did not have a copy. Can you now contribute?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to start by saying that I support the Bill. I have the benefit of the background of it from yesterday’s debate. From the debate of yesterday, it was evident that the Minister was seeking an extra Kshs57 billion. This comes after Treasury experienced a lot of challenges in revenue collection. Hon. Members may recall that we started by a deficit of about Kshs106 billion. To date, we have a revenue shortfall of about Kshs45 billion. We also have an additional expenditure of about Kshs57 billion. Hon. Members will also appreciate that we need
Yes, hon. Mwatela.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the Motion and share the sentiments of the previous speaker that we exercise caution, considering that we seem to be spending more than we can generate in terms of revenue collection. At the same time, I would like to appreciate the fact that the creation of the devolved system of government will spur economic activities in this country. Most likely, the coming into place of the system will bring about more participation in economic activities by the people and, therefore, the economy will grow at a faster pace. Therefore, as much as this may appear to be a threat, we ought to appreciate that in the long run we will have moved into an era where we will spend more at a lower level, so that we can generate much more income. With those remarks, I beg to support.
Yes, Member for Kitutu Masaba.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also rise to, first of all, congratulate the Minister for Finance while I support this Motion for the good work that he has done. I think he is one of the best Ministers that we have had. He has been very co-operative and he has been working with this Parliament closely. We want to thank him for the good work that he has done. Mr. Speaker, Sir, as we adjourn to go for elections, I want to request him to be vigilant in monetary issues, so that this nation can continue functioning. It is important to support this Motion because, as a country, we must operate. At the same time, the devolved governments in the counties must also be seen to operate, so that the new constitutional dispensation can come into fruition. Even as I support this Motion, I want to request that we must now base our economy on the rural areas, so that we can create an economy which can benefit all the people of this country. Every person in this country should be made to participate in the matters of the economy of this country. I strongly support and assure you that this House will always support matters which are beneficial to it.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to support this Motion and also join my colleagues in congratulating the Minister for Finance for the manner in which he has steered this critical docket. When my learned senior was appointed to this Ministry, there may have been concerns because of his professional background, but I believe that he has acquitted himself very well, especially at a time when the country has faced myriad financial challenges. We have witnessed unprecedented industrial action all across the board, with the teachers, medical professionals, civil servants, all demanding better pay. The Treasury has, indeed, done its best to deal with all those challenges. Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I support this Motion, I particularly want to draw the Treasury’s attention to the critical importance of properly anchoring the county governments and the devolved structures of governance. This could well be the final bow that we are taking as the Tenth Parliament. Therefore, this House will not be in a position, perhaps, from tomorrow onwards to sit and watch the devolved units come into place after the next elections. They will depend to a very large extent on the Treasury to show goodwill and provide sufficient support, especially for the preliminary structures required to anchor the devolved governments. I want to really urge my learned colleague, the Minister for Finance, and the Treasury generally, to go out of their way and make sure that all preparations required to ensure that we will be ready for county governments are put in place in terms of the physical infrastructure and all the software required to run them. This is also a moment when we are taking the big leap constitutionally and politically. Again, the Treasury is right at the centre of facilitating all this. I have no doubt that the hon. Minister has faith in devolution. Therefore, while at the Treasury, let him rein in any fears and apprehension that may be there, that there may be individuals who have not yet taken the step of faith to believe in devolution, to support devolution fully and, therefore, make sure that we will be ready by the time we go to the polls to ensure that devolution does take root. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I support.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to these very important Supplementary Estimates. I will start by thanking the Minister and his entire staff for piloting the Treasury and the Ministry in the right direction. For the short time the Minister has been at the helm, we have seen a lot of growth and co-operation from that Ministry. Therefore, it is important that the Minister should continue working in that spirit. Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is also important that the functions of the Government and services to the people must continue. It is the responsibility of the Government to make sure that services are rendered to wananchi in all corners of this country. Therefore, without funds, the Government will be crippled and growth in the country will be affected. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have noted that the highest allocation has gone to the Ministry of Education; we have a lot of confidence in the person of the Minister for Education, Mr. M. Kilonzo. He has really demonstrated very satisfactory dynamism at the Ministry. He has continued to assure this country that the quality and quantity of education will
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also want to join my colleagues in supporting The Supplementary Appropriation Bill which has been tabled by the Minister for Finance. Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I support this very important Bill, I would like to urge the Minister for Finance to consider some areas during this time of budgeting. He should consider the dual carriage way which will be constructed to link Mombasa to Nairobi and Malaba. That will reduce traffic congestion and increase investment along that road. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank the Minister for allocating adequate funds to cater for the general election which will be held in March. I also thank him for funding other important segments of the economy, including the road network and water projects, especially in Ukambani. Let me also appreciate the Minister for Education, hon. M. Kilonzo. I hope that in these Supplementary Estimates, he will remember and include the allocation for Makindu Teachers Training College, where he laid the foundation stone. This college will provide the much needed education in Makueni County. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to support this Supplementary Estimates and wish the Minister, hon. Githae, well.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to support the Supplementary Appropriation Bill. Mr. Speaker, Sir, first of all, I am happy that it includes county funding. We need to see successful devolution. We must not afford to have the funding starved of counties at any one time. We hope that this funding will be continuous and timely. As we also fund the elections through this Appropriation Bill, I hope that the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (IEBC) will be able to use some of the funds for civic education because voting for six candidates can be quite a challenge, as I have seen even here in Parliament some of us having spoilt ballot papers when we are voting for just a few people to the East African Community Assembly.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you for the opportunity to speak and also congratulate my learned friend, the Minister for Finance, for the good job that he is doing in bringing to Parliament timely issues and adequately explaining and convincing the House and country that he is doing his work openly and to the satisfaction of many. Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I support this Supplementary Appropriation Bill, I want to encourage that we remain steadfast and committed to devolution. I know that the Minister has indicated that there is Kshs10 billion allocated towards the devolved government system. It is not enough but it is a good start, so that immediately after elections, the devolved units can start their operations and give Kenyans what they have been waiting, which is, a government close to them, within their midst that will be literary available to respond to their day to day needs. Mr. Speaker, Sir, as we do so, you can see that we are having serious security challenges popping up here and there in the country. I have in mind the Tana River situation where from time to time, we are seeing reckless loss of lives that need not be lost. I want to urge the Ministry of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security, because I see that the Minister has allocated them quite a substantial sum of money to pay attention to these flashpoints that we have witnessed in the recent times. We have Tana River, Baragoi and the resurgence of very ghastly road accidents that are claiming lives. We need more policing on the highways and strict enforcement of the new traffic laws, so that as we go to the elections and at all times, we can safeguard the sanctity of the lives of Kenyans. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the recent past, there is a resurgence of a very dangerous trend in our national parks. There is very deadly poaching going on. Elephants are being slaughtered in their tens and sometimes twenties and fifties. I want to urge the Ministry concerned that this should not just be left to the wildlife services. I think that the Ministry of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security must take poaching as also a
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to acknowledge my learned friend, the Minister for Finance, for an excellent piece of job. Allow me to draw your attention to page 10 of the Bill - Vote No.131 - because history is in the making. My learned friend has kindly agreed to allocate a sum of money, although not enough, but sufficient funds that can help: “The amount required in the year ending 30th June, 2013 for the Ministry of Education for capital expenditure including general administration and planning” and I emphasize “early childhood education, primary education, schools for the handicapped, secondary education and adult education”. I want to recognize and salute the Minister for accepting this recommendation from my Ministry. That is because as you know under Schedule IV, PART II, Section IX, Early Childhood Education has been assigned for county governments. But the fact that the Minister has recognized the urgency of starting this work is truly a landmark position. I hope that as we wait for the next Cabinet Secretaries, they will continue with this. However, allow me to mention that he has given us under Vote No.R209 at page 8, money for salaries of teachers. But it cannot have escaped your attention that we still
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also want to commend the Minister for making it possible to adjourn this House and go to campaign early enough so that, at least, we can be sure our competitors are not finding it easy. While supporting the Minister, it is also good to let him know that as much as he has provided for the local authorities, he should be aware that there are many members of staff who have retired from the local authorities and have been complaining seriously. We have seen them staging demonstrations in Embu. I can see they have provided for salaries. But I would urge him together with his staff to ensure that they also dig into the whole issue and confirm whether the local authorities have serious debts that may make the governors not to function properly while in office. This should not be so difficult because this is something they can compile conveniently. That can be done with the help of the existing structures within the Ministry at the local authority level. Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are getting into a new dispensation and yet procurement procedures are cumbersome. Some of them have led to wastage of resources. The Minister and his staff need to look at all the ways of making the processes simpler even if it means waiving some of the conditions that have made it so difficult for us to get competitive bids. Some services have been made expensive for no apparent reason. Now that we have seen that the devolved governments will definitely run short of money, it is good that they be aware of this so that they can see where they can adjust their procurement law so that they function and procure without hitches. Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is also of concern that even as we get into county governments, the Treasury is expected to collect resources through taxes and related fees and charges. It is also still of concern that the National Land Commission is not yet operational and yet, there are some issues which ought to be tackled through that Commission. It is a commission that could lead in revenue generation. A good example is the Land Board which ought to have been put in place in my constituency. We are still waiting for the National Land Commission to be gazetted. This is what is going to enable the Government collect revenue. When it is missing, revenue is getting lost. Even if it is not lost, I believe that it is not being remitted to Government and yet, this is the revenue that is seriously needed to make sure that the systems functions with the right funding.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand to support this Bill. The Ministry of State for Special Programmes requires funding. The other day, I was checking for foodstuff for the people of Samburu North in Baragoi area who were displaced and robbed of their livelihood, that is, their cattle. They are now living without food at all. I was told that the Ministry does not have resources to buy foodstuffs. I am, however, glad that a substantial amount of money has now been put in this budget not only to help the people of Baragoi, but also the people of Tana River and Western Kenya who have faced disasters through the recent rains. I hope that the Minister will move very quickly to support those communities. Of great interest are the resources required in the Ministry of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security, especially the new Inspector-General who has moved in very quickly to deal with a number of security challenges that are cropping up this time when we are preparing for elections. It is critical that resources are given to the Inspector-General so that he does his work well. With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Bill and commend the Minister for doing a great job. At one stage, I remember asking him, “Who is the finance man? Is it the lawyer or is it me?” He wins because he is now behaving like a finance man. Mr. Speaker, Sir, there are areas where the Minister could have provided better than he has. Recently, we passed a Bill here on Small and Medium Enterprises (SMEs). We have prided ourselves by saying that SMEs provide about 80 per cent of our employment and contribute to the Gross National Product (GNP) anything between 18 per cent and 22 per cent. I feel sorry that under the Ministry of Trade where the Bill was domiciled, there is no provision for implementing that Bill. If that Bill is well implemented – I urge the Minister to provide for it – it will revolutionize the countryside. If we cascade that Bill to the county governments with the requirements that they provide sheds for SMEs, they will then create employment at a very low cost. Mr. Speaker, Sir, those are budding manufacturers. I feel sorry that we killed the Kenya Industrial Estates (KIEs) of this world. We know that KIE was the nursery of our upcoming manufacturers. If this Bill is implemented, it will increase the number of manufacturers greatly, widely and cheaply. With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Minister for Finance, I see no further interest. Are you ready to reply?
Yes, indeed, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Let me take this opportunity to thank hon. Members of this august House for their support, co-
Hon. Members, from this point, you will now be guided by the Supplementary Order Paper No.2 which has been circulated. As at the point which we are, you will realize that at Order No.12 we have a number of Bills that are supposed to proceed to Committee of the Whole House. The indications I have are that the Bills appearing from (i) to (viii) have, in fact, been concluded in so far as the Committee of the whole House is concerned. We will, therefore, just move to receive the Reports from the Committee. That is what we will do now. We will receive the Reports with respect to those Bills.
Hon. Members, I will ask the Chairman of the Committee of the whole House to make the Report on the Constituencies Development Fund Bill, Bill No.77 of 2012. Who was the Chairman of the Committee? Hon. Member for Kibwezi, Prof. Kaloki.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I seek your direction, am I supposed to report as the Chair of the whole House?
Indeed, that is what I have just directed. THE CONSTITUENCIES DEVELOPMENT FUND
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered The Constituencies Development Fund Bill and approved the same with amendments.
Hon. Members, the sponsor of the Bill should now move for us to proceed to adopt that Report.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.
(Mr. Kimunya) seconded.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Constituencies Development Fund be now read the Third Time.
(Mr. Kimunya) seconded.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered The International Interests in Aircraft Equipment Bill and approved the same with amendments.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.
(Mr. Githae) seconded.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that The International Interests in Aircraft Equipment Bill be now read the Third Time.
(Mr. Githae) seconded.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered The Civil Aviation Bill and approved the same with amendments.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.
(Mr. Githae) seconded.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that The Civil Aviation Bill be now read the Third Time.
(Mr. Githae) seconded.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered The Nairobi Centre for International Arbitration Bill and approved the same with amendments.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.
(Mr. Namwamba) seconded.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that The Nairobi Centre for International Arbitration Bill be now read the Third Time.
(Mr. Namwamba) seconded.
The Member for Kibwezi, as the Temporary Deputy Chairman, could you kindly report on the Kenya Law Reform Commission Bill, Bill No.67 of 2012? THE KENYA LAW REFORM COMMISSION BILL
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered The Kenya Law Reform Commission Bill, Bill No. 67 of 2012 and approved the same with amendments.
Who will hold brief for the Attorney-General?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.
(Mr. Githae) seconded.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Kenya Law Reform Bill, Bill No. 67 of 2012 be now read the Third Time.
(Mr. Githae) seconded.
The Member for Kibwezi, could you now report on the Science, Technology and Innovation Bill? THE SCIENCE TECHNOLOGY & INNOVATION BILL
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered The Science, Technology & Innovation Bill, Bill No.53 of 2012 and approved the same with amendments.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.
(Mr. Kimunya) seconded.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that The Science, Technology & Innovation Bill, Bill No. 53 of 2012 be now read the Third Time.
(Mr. Githae) seconded.
The hon. Member for Kibwezi, you can now report on The Sports Bill. THE TECHNICAL AND VOCATIONAL, EDUCATION AND TRAINING BILL
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered The Technical and Vocational, Education and Training Bill, Bill No.55 of 2012 and approved the same with amendments.
Hon. Phillip Kaloki, I called you to report on The Sports Bill. However, you appear to have been programmed to report on The Technical and Vocational, Education and Training Bill. I will proceed that notwithstanding. The HANSARD is appropriately corrected.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.
(Mr. Kimunya) seconded.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that The Technical and Vocational Education and Training Bill, Bill No.55 of 2012 be now read the Third Time.
(Mr. Githae) seconded.
The Temporary Deputy Chairman, Prof. Philip Kaloki, can you now report on The Sports Bill? THE SPORTS BILL
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered The Sports Bill, Bill No.43 of 2012 and approved the same with amendments.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.
(Mr. Kimunya) seconded.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that The Sports Bill, Bill No.43 of 2012 be now read the Third Time.
(Mr. Githae) seconded.
Order, hon. Members! You will continue to be guided by Supplementary Order Paper No.2 and we will now go back to the Committee of the whole House and we will consider business beginning with the Bill at (ix) and continue until we dispose of business on the Bills at (xv).
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 3 be amended in paragraph (a) by inserting the words “and any other expenses” immediately after the words “wages and administrative costs”.
(Mr. Githae) Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 4 be amended in sub-clause (1) by deleting the words “for wages and administrative costs” appearing immediately after the words “county government allocation”.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, the Schedule be amended by deleting column B and substituting thereof the following new column-
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I want to support this amendment. This was part of the negotiated settlement to this Bill but I still want to point out that this amendment came with an extra Kshs3 billion requirement and which will go a long way in overstretching the borrowings in this country. I just wanted to sound an alarm that this is going to crowd out the public sector and we will soon be seeing an increase in the interest rates not to mention inflation. I want to hear the Minister say “No” loudly and convince me much as we are in the Committee Stage.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I wish to confirm that there will be no increase in inflation as a result of the Kshs3 billion that we have given to the counties. Why? This is because what I intend to do is to seal all the tax leakages that we have been experiencing. That is why in the Supplementary Estimates, there is Kshs2 billion for the Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA) first of all to come up with a system that will be able to monitor the Excise Duty revenue stamps, so that we do away with the fake and counterfeits. Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, in addition, in the recent Finance Act we put in a new tax on mobile transfer charges. So, I wish to confirm that there will be no inflation. I wish to confirm that interest rates will not increase. I wish to confirm that our micro-economic stability will continue.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move that the Committee doth report to the House its consideration of the Transition County Allocation of Revenue Bill, Bill No.90 of 2012, and its approval thereof with amendments.
We have now completed the Transition County Allocation of Revenue Bill, and now we will move to the Transition County Appropriation Bill, Bill No.91 of 2012.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, the Schedule be deleted and replaced by the following new Schedule-
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I want to support the Minister. Now, the county governments are going to set out and get to business unlike previously, where they were just going to pay salaries. I think this is a good start and it is commendation to the Minister. I support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I am also supporting the Minister for working out the new tabulations, which now give confidence to the 47 county governments, as they kick off with funds.
Minister, you may now respond since we have concluded all your amendments.
(Mr. Githae) Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move that the Committee doth report to the House its consideration of The Transition County Appropriation Bill, Bill No.91 of 2012 and its approval thereof with amendment.
Hon. Members, we have dealt with the Transition County Appropriation Bill, Bill No.91 of 2012 and we are now going to move to the National Government Co-ordination Bill, Bill No.74 of 2012. THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT CO-ORDINATION BILL
We have an amendment here and hon. Odhiambo-Mabona will be able to move it. Hon. Odhiambo-Mabona are you ready? Hon. Odhiambo-Mabona, your microphone is on and I can see you are running to get there; I know you will get there.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I am sorry I did not inform you that I have agreed with the Chairman of the Committee and the Minister that I withdraw my amendments, and that we support the amendments by hon. Kapondi with further amendments.
I do not have anything from hon. Kapondi for clause 2. Since you are dropping your amendment, I want to propose the Question. Since hon. Odhiambo-Mabona has dropped her amendment, we will go to the Minister. Minister, proceed.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I withdraw my amendment to Clause 3.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, the Bill be amended in Clause 5 by inserting the words “pursuant to Article 6(3) of the Constitution” immediately after the word “service”.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, the Bill be amended in Clause 10 by deleting Sub-sections (3), (4) and (5) therefor.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, the Bill be amended in Clause 13 by:- (a) inserting the words “and such other committees or mechanisms as may be necessary” immediately after the word “Secretaries”; (b) deleting Sub-section (2); (c) inserting the words “through the Cabinet Secretary” immediately after the word “President”.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I withdraw my amendment to Clause 14.
Hon. Members, there are three proposals for amendment to this clause. We will start with the one by the Minister.
Hon. Members, we have a proposal for further amendment by hon. Kapondi.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, after consulting with hon. Millie and the Minister, I wish to move as follows:- THAT, the Bill be amended in Clause 15 by- a) deleting the word “sub-county” appearing in Sub-section (b) and substituting therefor the word “Deputy County Commissioner”; b) deleting the words “ward coordinator” appearing in Sub-section(c) and substituting therefor the word “Assistant County Commissioner”.
Hon. Kapondi, do you have the written amendment with you?
Yes, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir.
I will put the Question but, please, provide the Clerks-at-the Table with the write-up because it is different from the amendment that you submitted earlier.
Yes, hon. Millie Odhiambo.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I withdraw my amendment to Clause 15.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT the Bill be amended in Clause 20 by deleting the words in the section and substituting therefor the following new clause- 20. All property, assets, rights, liabilities, obligations, agreements and other arrangements existing at the commencement of this Act and vested in, acquired, incurred or entered into by or on behalf of the system of administration commonly known as the Provincial Administration shall upon the commencement of this Act, vest in the national government to the same extent as they were enforceable by or against the system of administration commonly known as Provincial Administration before the commencement of the Act.
We will come to that. Let us first dispose of clauses 21 to 23.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, the following new Part be inserted immediately after Clause 18-
No, we will allow you to do that later. There is a time for that.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, perhaps, I could explain to the Minister that this is actually one of the clauses that we agreed on yesterday; even his technical advice team had no problem with it. I had actually agreed that later I may remove it, but when I read the Inter-Governmental Relations Act, I found that it focuses a lot on a resolution of county to county conflict. It is not focused on intra- county conflict, where you have a County Commissioner and a governor having a conflict over mandates. You do not want people to start working and fighting. You need mediation instead of people running to court and spending a lot of energy in court. You need an amicable way of solving the dispute. So, this is actually one of the areas that we had no problem with. I do not know if I can move my further amendment now; I wanted to move a further amendment to sub-clause (5)---
Order, Mrs. Odhiambo- Mabona! Let us deal with this one and then you will be able to move your amendment later.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I wish to move a further amendment to Sub-clause (5) by deleting the words “High Court” and substituting therefor the words “summit under the Inter-Governmental Relations Act”. This is to ensure that where there is no agreement, instead of having them running to the High Court, they refer the dispute for further resolution under the Inter-Governmental Relations Act. If we use the method that is in the Inter-Governmental Relations Act, we will be actually stopping operations. Even on any minor dispute you will have to constitute the summit, and that is too technical and high up there. So, there needs to be a simple mechanism of resolving disputes within the county. The County Commissioner and the governor should be able to sit with two or three people and solve a conflict. So, I am suggesting that we delete the words “High Court” and replace them with the words “summit under the Inter-Governmental Relations Act.”
Hon. Millie Odhiambo, make sure that you sign that amendment which you have just moved and bring it here, so that it is captured correctly.
Hon. Members, we will now consider The Kenya National Commission for UNESCO Bill (Bill No.80 of 2012).
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move that the Committee doth report to the House its consideration of The National Commission for UNESCO Bill and its approval thereof without amendments.
Hon. Members, we will rearrange the order of the Bills as there is still some work going on The Retirement Benefits (Deputy President & Designated State Officers) Bill. So, we will move to The Presidential Retirement Benefits (Amendment) Bill (Bill No. 85 of 2012), followed by The Supplementary Appropriation Bill and then come back to The Retirement Benefits (Deputy President & Designated State Officers) Bill. THE PRESIDENTIAL RETIREMENT BENEFITS (AMENDMENT) BILL
Madam Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 3 of the Bill be amended by deleting paragraph (a). Madam Temporary Deputy Chairlady, the import of this amendment is to reduce the lump sum from one-and-a-half years to one year’s basic salary.
Madam Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move that the Committee doth report to the House its consideration of The Presidential Retirement Benefits (Amendment) Bill and its approval thereof with amendments.
Hon. Members, we will now move to The Supplementary Appropriation Bill. THE SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION BILL
Madam Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move that the Committee doth report to the House its consideration of The Supplementary Appropriation Bill and its approval thereof without amendments.
Hon. Members, we will then go back – and I hope the Minister is now ready - to the Retirement Benefits (Deputy President and Designated State Officers) Bill. THE RETIREMENT BENEFITS (DEPUTY PRESIDENT AND DESIGNATED STATE OFFICERS) BILL
Madam Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 2 of the Bill be amended- (a) in the definition of the term “Designated State Officer” by inserting the following new paragraphs immediately after paragraph (h):-
Madam Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 2 of the Bill be further amended by inserting the following new definitions in their proper alphabetical sequence- “retired Member of Parliament” means a person who, having held the office of Member of Parliament, has ceased to hold office as such in the manner specified in the Constitution and does not include a person who served as Member of Parliament before the commencement of this Act.” “retired Minister” means a person who, having held the office of Minister, has ceased to hold office as such in the manner specified in the Constitution and does not include a person who served as Minister before the commencement of this Act;
Madam Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 3 of the Bill be amended by- (a) renumbering the existing provision as subclause (1); (b) deleting the expression “15th January, 2008” in the renumbered subclause (1) and substituting therefor the expression “27th August, 2010”; (c) inserting the following new subclause immediately after the renumbered sublause (1)- “(2) Notwithstanding subsection (1), a person who served as a Vice-President or Speaker of the National Assembly as of 27th December, 2007 shall be entitled to the benefits conferred by section 5(2) of this Act.”
Madam Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 3 of the Bill be further amended by inserting the following new subclause immediately after the new subclause (2)- “(3) A retired Minister shall, on the commencement of this Act, be entitled to benefits conferred by the Second Schedule to this Act. (4) A retired Member of Parliament shall, on the commencement of this Act, be entitled to benefits conferred by paragraphs (b), (c) and (d) of the Second Schedule to this Act.”
Madam Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:-
Madam Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 5 of the Bill be amended in sub-clause (1) by inserting the word “basic” immediately after the words “salary of the entitled person’s” in paragraph (a).
Madam Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, the Bill be amended in Clause 14 by inserting the following new sub- section immediately after sub-section (2)- (3) The Second Schedule of the National Assembly Remuneration Act is amended by deleting item 5.
Madam Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after Clause 13- Gratuity for Members of
Madam Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:- THAT, the Second Schedule of the Bill be amended:- (i) In the heading by inserting the words “OR A RETIRED ATTORNEY GENERAL, A RETIRED CHIEF OF THE KENYA DEFENCE FORCES, A RETIRED DIRECTOR-GENERAL OF THE NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE SERVICE, A RETIRED INSPECTOR-GENERAL OF THE NATIONAL POLICE SERVICE”, THE SECRETARY TO THE CABINET OR DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS immediately after the words “A RETIRED DEPUTY CHIEF JUSTICE”. (ii) By inserting the following new paragraph immediately after paragraph (d):- (e) Maintenance expenses for the vehicle provided pursuant to this Act.
Madam Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move that the Committee doth report to the House its consideration of The Retirement Benefits (Deputy President and Designated State Officers) Bill and its approval thereof with amendments.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered The Transition County Allocation Revenue Bill and approved the same with amendments.
Minister, can you move agreement with the Chairperson?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.
Minister, can you move the Third Reading? Can you get the text as it is verbatim; word for word?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered The Transition County Appropriation Bill and approved the same with amendments.
Minister, can you now move agreement to the Report?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.
(Mr. Mwatela) seconded.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that The Transition County Appropriation Bill be now read the Third Time.
(Mr. Mwatela) seconded.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered The National Government Co-ordination Bill, Bill No.74 of 2012 and approved the same with amendments.
(Mr. Nyagah) seconded.
(Mr. Githae) seconded.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered The Kenya National Commission for UNESCO Bill, Bill No.80 of 2012 and approved the same without amendment.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.
(Mr. Nyagah) seconded.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that The National Commission for UNESCO Bill, Bill No.80 of 2012 be now read the Third Time.
(Mr. Githae) seconded.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered The Retirement Benefits (Deputy President and Designated State Officers) Bill, Bill No.86 of 2012 and approved the same with amendment.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.
(Mr. Nyagah) seconded.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that The Retirement Benefits (Deputy President and Designated State Officers) Bill, Bill No.86 of 2012 be now read the Third Time.
(Mr. Keya) seconded.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered The Presidential Retirement Benefits (Amendment) Bill, Bill No.85 of 2012 and approved the same with amendment.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.
(Mr. Keya) seconded.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that The Presidential Retirement Benefits (Amendment) Bill, Bill No.85 of 2012 be now read the Third Time.
(Mr. Keya) seconded.
Hon. Members, we now go to The Supplementary Appropriation Bill, Bill No. 1 of 2013. THE SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION BILL
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that a Committee of the Whole House has considered The Supplementary Appropriation Bill, Bill No.1 of 2013 and approved the same without amendment.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.
(Mr. Nyagah) seconded.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that The Supplementary Appropriation Bill, Bill No.1 of 2013 be now read the Third Time.
(Mr. Nyagah) seconded.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Motion:-
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to second this very important Motion for the simple reason that we need it. As everybody will understand no Government can run its finances without borrowing. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me add one thing, that borrowing is of two types. One, there is domestic borrowing, which is usually through Treasury bills and bonds; two, there is external borrowing, which can come in many forms. There are commercial loans, grants, aid and also loans from one government to another, or from multilateral agencies to our Government.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank the Minister for moving this Motion. However, regrettably, I wish to oppose it and the reason is that this Parliament has done an excellent job. We have done a lot of legislative work, very revolutionary legislative work. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, towards the end, we are doing a lot of reckless legislation and we are approving a lot of work very recklessly. This is because we are not allowing a lot of time for scrutiny and public participation. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, indeed, if you look at the amounts that the Minister is talking about, they are extremely huge, especially before we go into an election period; it raises eyebrows. We want to raise this kind of money at a time when we are going for elections. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would want to indicate that again if you are going for elections, it means a new Government is coming in place. I do not know why the Minister is over-enthusiastic to do the work of another Government. You do not know if you are going to be there. Even if you are going to be there, you wait for that Government. You cannot be enthusiastically doing work for other people, and causing them to be indented. This is really up to the Minister at this point. It remains, therefore, that whatever you do may be questioned by an incoming Government. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, finally, I want to say for the sake of the children of this country that if you look at the level of indebtedness that our children are in as a consequence of our own actions, it is not sustainable. I want to say that for the sake of our children, if you want to enslave them further, then their voices must be heard. There are many organizations that speak for and work with children; they work on these issues. I do not think something of this magnitude is something we should be passing. Let me revise my wording but anyway---
Do not revise it. Nobody is complaining.
No, I will revise it because if I do not revise it you will all leave here. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we need the House and Members when we are dealing with such a serious issue. I find it sneaky. I find it almost cheeky and I would want to very strongly oppose it.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for the opportunity to support the Motion. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, world over, all governments operate by borrowing; borrowing internally, borrowing externally and luckily for this country, what the Minister is asking for is to expand the borrowing ceiling. But he cannot spend that money without the approval of this House. So, it is not an issue that we should worry about, that we are giving him a carte blanche for him to spend money that this House has not approved. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you may recall, as hon. Anyang’-Nyong’o said, in the 1990s, when Finance Ministers - I believe at one time my friend, hon. Okemo, was one - were regular unpleasant visitors to the Paris Club to go and explain all manner of things in very humiliating circumstances about the inability of this country to run its affairs, our indebtedness and so on. We have come out of that situation and we must thank our Government of the last ten years for putting this country on a path of growth. Of course, what happened after the
Yes, hon. Charles Onyancha.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we should not have any fuss about this Motion. Let me say at the outset that I fully support the Motion for very good reasons, which I am going to enumerate. First, we should consider that the last time this ceiling was put in place was five years ago. Speaking as a financial expert, a sum of money five years ago is not the same amount today. It has been eroded by inflation on an annual basis. Assuming a 10 per cent inflationary rate, you will find that he is asking for the same amount he asked for five years ago in real terms. That is something which hon. Members should keep in mind. In addition to that, if you look at the exchange rates five years ago and the exchange rates today, because we are borrowing in foreign currency; you will appreciate that that is further erosion, which he has not asked to be cushioned from, in my opinion. That is probably going to contribute another 20 per cent. So, those two factors taken into account together bring down the Kshs1,200 billion to about Kshs600 billion. What we could buy with Kshs900 billion five years ago today we need to spend, maybe, Kshs1,600 billion to buy it. Therefore, with that in mind, we should not have any objection to this Motion. Secondly, our economy has been growing tremendously, especially in the last ten years. A growing economy needs the oil to grease it. That oil is finance. Really, when you consider the percentage of this ceiling to the GDP you will find that it has actually gone down tremendously. That is another issue which I believe we need to take into account. Further, we need infrastructural development as fast as we can. Indeed, we must borrow because this is an investment we are making. As hon. Wetangula said, it will repay. This is not money that is wasted. With our intended aim to substantially reduce, if not to kill corruption; if we put these funds into proper infrastructural development, we will give our country a chance to grow at 10-15 per cent per annum. That is all we want to create jobs. Lastly, the Minister has given us assurances. His past assurances have not been bad. Okay, we are questioning about the Constituencies Development Fund (CDF) in the last minute but I am sure that he is going to sort it out. I encourage him to do so to leave
Yes, hon. Njuguna Mwaura.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank you for giving me the chance to make an input to this very important Motion. I will start by thanking the Minister for his commitment in managing our resources at the Treasury. Secondly, the ceiling amounting to Kshs1.2 trillion is alarming. If this amount is not properly managed, the country can plunge into a very serious financial crisis. We have seen countries like Greece and other European countries which have already plunged into financial crisis. If it were not for the goodwill of other European countries, Greece would have lost part of its land. I recall that Greece had to surrender some islands in order to save the mortgaging of the entire country. The intention by the Minister is very important because as the population of this country increases, we need more resources to improve water services, roads and other sectors of socio-economic life in this country. Therefore, my fear would be for careless handling of this ceiling. With the confidence that the Minister has demonstrated in this country, we should be able to approve this request. Therefore, I support the Motion in totality.
Next Order! ADOPTION OF SESSIONAL PAPER NO.12 OF 2012 ON EXCESS GOK DEBT OWED BY PUBLIC SUGAR COMPANIES
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Motion:- THAT, this House adopts Sessional Paper No. 12 of 2012 on Write Off of Excess Government of Kenya Debt Owed By The Public Sector Owned Sugar Companies laid on the Table of the House on Thursday 6th December, 2012. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, what we are trying to do is to recover and privatise some of these companies. But we cannot do this because of the excess debt they have. Even if we were to liquidate all the assets, they cannot meet their liabilities. It is really sad that we have to take this decision. The amount is almost over Kshs40 billion. If we do not do this the COMESA exemptions will expire at the end of this year. Our factories cannot compete with factories in Egypt and Mauritius. You will be surprised that sugar as far away as in Brazil is cheaper when it lands in Mombasa than the sugar produced in this country. So, if we do not privatise change management of these sugar companies, all of them will close down.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, to some of us sugar growing is like camels to you where you come from. I represent sugar farmers. In seconding this Motion and supporting it fully, I know the pain that farmers in the sugar sector have gone through in this country. Some of the good reasons that my learned friend has given are valid; some are excuses but we must make a decision. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have always operated under the nightmare of COMESA sugar. Our sugar factories are owned by the Government. The Government is presumed to be inefficient. They borrowed money that has quadrupled on interest. They have been mismanaged and so on. We also know that the largest single sugar factory in Africa that produces and sells sugar to Kenya, and that scares other sugar factories in Sudan is Government- owned, Kenana. It is a massive factory, efficiently run and is owned by the Government. So, I want to urge Parliament to agree to this, because this is not the first time this Parliament is approving writing off of loans. We did so with the Kenya Airways in the early 1990s. We did so with the AFC, although in AFC actually it was scandalous because we wrote off loans that benefitted individuals. We wrote off loans with the fomer Kenya Posts and Telecommunications Corporation before privatisation. I want to urge that after writing off these loans, the process of privatising Chemelil, Muhoroni, SONY and Nzoia sugar companies should be done a little carefully and differently from the reckless manner in which Mumias Sugar was privatised. you have the factories, you have massive arable land that must go back to the counties where these factories are based, so that whoever will buy the mill then can lease that land from the counties to generate income for the counties. That is why this process must be looked through very carefully. In the case of Mumias, for example, the privatisation was done regardless of the land that the people of Mumias had surrendered to the Government to build the plant. So, those who took the factory took it plus the land, but without taking into account the valuing of the land. We want the parcels of land for SONY, Nzoia and Miwani sugar companies to go to the counties where they are based. Secondly, as a country, we also must decide what we want to do with the sugar sector. It does not add up for Kenya sugar production sector to be scared of sugar from Swaziland and Malawi, yet these countries’ levels of development and economies are much smaller and less developed than our own. There must be something wrong somewhere. I think the reasons the Minister has advanced if addressed and factories are given clean balance sheets--- If they want to go and borrow commercially to run the enterprise, they must do so. They must also learn how to maximize the use of production in the sugar industry. There is co-generation that Mumias is doing; none of the others is doing it. There is production of drinking water that Mumias is doing; none of the others is doing it. There is flawed procurement of spares and so on. Then, there is inadequate supervision, I believe, from the sector itself and the overall players in the sector. I want to
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion for the same reasons that my friend, hon. Wetangula, has given. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, first, I am going to be the Senator of Kisumu County which is largely dependent on sugar. In my county we have three factories; Miwani, Muhoroni and Chemelil. Miwani collapsed in 1987 because of poor management and rent seeking. Miwani has one of the largest land in that area which has been lying idle since then. There was an attempt by somebody to appropriate Miwani from the people, but I am happy that, that attempt failed or is not going to succeed. So, it is important to understand what hon. Wetangula is saying; that while we support privatization, we must ensure that assets owned by these factories, definitely in the final analysis, not only help these factories grow, but also help the local economy in the counties. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to give a brief history of privatization in this country, particularly with respect to the sugar belt and factories in this nation. In the 1990s when almost every public corporation collapsed in this nation due to rent seeking, primitive accumulation and sheer looting, the Kenya Government was left with huge debts in almost every public corporation, including the Agricultural Finance Corporation (AFC), Industrial and Commercial Development Corporation (ICDC), Kenya Airways and so on. Since then, the Government has been involved in the process of rehabilitating public corporations; privatizing and selling some to the private sector. One of the public corporations that we rescued in this House, I think in 1996, was Kenya Airways, where the Government decided to take a very brave step which was very controversial in this House; to pump money into the Kenya Airways, so that the Government by taking over the debt of Kenya Airways, it acquired more equity in the airways. That is one of the reasons Kenya Airways has survived today. I am sure the money that the Government put in Kenya Airways was recovered after a very short time. This is because the Kenya Airways was efficiently and effectively managed. It started making profits and the private
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also rise to support this Motion and in so doing, I would like to reflect on something. This morning, I was passing a Report of the Committee, on privatization and one of the recommendations was that the privatization of the sugar mills will be postponed until certain steps have been taken; one of which was to ensure that Sessional Paper No.12 - which we are now dealing with - has been passed. That is because no privatization makes sense if you are selling a completely worn down asset because you will get nothing for it. Therefore, one of the ways to make sure that we can get reasonable returns out of the privatization is to clean up and restructure the balance sheet. You restructure the balance sheet by writing off some of these debts. In fact, in this Paper, there are proposals to write off the loans to the extent of about kshs41 billion. I think Kshs9 billion is to be injected into buying equipment to improve the factories. There is also a proposal to make sure we write off all the taxes, land rates and penalties accompanying them so that when you look at the balance sheet, it looks attractive. That, therefore, will lead to very attractive proceeds when you privatize. My belief is that the sugarcane farmer in the sugar growing areas of Kenya has always had a raw deal. The milling companies make very hefty profits, some of them.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also rise to support this Motion. The Government has been known to be a poor manager of the private sector. In trying to privatize the sugar industry, our Government is trying to get off business and do management of the Government and that is something commendable. Wherever we have gone and seen privatization working properly, we find that whatever institution has been privatized becomes more efficient and has improved management. There is good management in production and they start making good profits. They, thereafter, expand and create more employment. When we give shares to private investors, even if it is 51 per cent--- In this case, the Government intends to retain some proportion. We have not given it away. That is because as of now, there is no sugar company - except only one - that is paying taxes. When we privatize and those companies improve and start paying taxes, we, as the people of Kenya, own 30 per cent of it because we take 30 per cent of those profits from taxation. I, therefore, would like to encourage this exercise and also encourage - like other speakers - that at the time of privatization and thereafter, diversification into other areas like power alcohol, molasses, bagasse, electricity production and other areas should be considered. With those few remarks, I beg to support very strongly.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also stand to support the Motion and say that the Minister is doing a very good job to see that farmers reap the benefits of their products. That is because the write-offs have happened in the coffee industry and now, it is happening in the sugar industry. Farmers feel very much encouraged because they can see that, at the end of the day, what they produce will fetch good prices because the burden of carrying over the debts will not be on them anymore. However, I would urge that the management of those factories, once privatized, should be so prudent that they do proper business. We are now talking of the good returns from Kenya Airways (KQ), but
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to support this Motion and state two facts. The first one is that while operating on the national business environment, Mumias Sugar Company, Butali Sugar Company and West Kenya Sugar Company are a success. The second fact is that the factories that produce cheap sugar from Brazil and Sudan are all public factories. The problem with the sugar industry in this country is the question of management. It, therefore, means that, if our factories are well managed, if sugarcane farming is well managed and if the sugar industry itself is well managed, then it would be profitable. However, the Government is, this evening, requesting the National Assembly to allow it to privatize those firms, when other Governments - say Brazil and Sudan - have been able to make this business profitable. It is yet again an admission by this Government that it is not fit to be in charge and to run public affairs. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is my prayer that the forthcoming Government will rise up to address the issue of management of public affairs. It is important that as we support the Minister in this exercise, he remembers that this is not the first time we are going to privatize public companies. For example, what lessons have we learnt from the exercise that we did at Telkom Kenya? What lessons have we learnt from the privatization that took place at Kenya Railways? We should not just approach Parliament and attempt to placate the public that simply because we are privatizing, things will be well. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, behind every successful company, be it private or public, there is an animal called a farmer. As we allow the Minister to privatize, we are hoping that he is going to rise to the need to address the challenges that face our farmers. The Minister is on record - in the short time that he has been the Minister – to have given money to write off the debts of farmers that they owe to financial institutions; for example, Agricultural Finance Corporation of Kenya (AFC). Why has it been difficult for this Government to extend the same write-off of loans to sugarcane farmers and yet, they have done this very successfully to farmers in other sub-sectors like coffee? It leaves us wondering whether the Government is in a hurry to relieve the burden of farmers from certain regions of this country for whatever reasons, and leave the other regions wallowing in poverty. We must, as we address the challenges facing the farmers, also address the issue of the cost of transport. It will have absolutely no meaning if the companies become private and the same challenges that farmers are faced with - especially on the issue of exploitation on the aspect of transport - are not addressed. There is absolutely no reason why a private company like Butali can lift a tonne of cane for a distance of 40 kilometres at Kshs390 per tonne and yet, a public company like Nzoia Sugar Company lifts the same tonne of cane at Kshs800 for a distance of about five kilometers or even two kilometers. These are things which I hope the new senators for Bungoma, Siaya and Kisumu counties will link up with me – because, hopefully, I will become the Senator for Kakamega County - so that we can bring that exploitation of our farmers to an end.
Yes, they are buying candidates from left, right and centre! These are questions we will ask for the sake of our children. And by the way, what is a good Minister doing in that kind of company? You are welcome to the Amani Coalition Minister. With those many words, I support.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Motion:- THAT, this House adopts Sessional Paper No.15 of 2012 on the Kenya Government Guarantee of a loan of US$93,000,000 equivalent to Kshs7,994,280,000 from European Investment Bank to Kenya Airports Authority for the Rehabilitation and Expansion of the Jomo Kenyatta International Airport laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday 18th December, 2012. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will be very brief. Again in accordance with the Public Finance Management Act, Laws of Kenya, Parliament is required to approve any guarantee and that is why I was particularly happy when Mr. Onyancha gave out the details that this was for planning purposes. Any guarantee of loan requires approval from Parliament and that is exactly what I am doing here. I am asking Parliament to approve and I want to move that this House adopts Sessional Paper No.15 of 2012 on the Kenya Government guarantee of a loan of US$93,000,000 which is equivalent to Kshs7,994,280,000 from European Investment Bank to Kenya Airports Authority (KAA) for rehabilitation and expansion of Jomo Kenyatta International Airport (JKIA) laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 18th December, 2012. Kenya Airways is a fully owned Government institution and it has embarked on rehabilitation of aprons and construction of additional passenger terminals and the car park. It has successfully negotiated this loan from the European Investment Bank for the expansion of the JKIA so as to enhance passenger capacity from 2.5 million to 9.3 million. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will just give you brief details of the loan which will be of interest. The interest rate for the loan is based on the European Investment cost of funds plus a margin of 0.5 per cent. There is also an additional charge of a commitment fee of 0.5 per cent. You cannot get anything better than this. If the House approves this Sessional Paper then the Government will guarantee the loan. This was a condition from the European Investment Bank that the host country must guarantee any investment that they make in each country. That is why we are asking this august House to approve this Sessional Paper to enable us now to issue a guarantee to European Investment Bank. The KAA is expected also to augment the total project financing by about 30 per cent. This means that they must also raise Kshs4.5 billion in overall expansion of JKIA. I wish to confirm to this House that as Treasury we have looked at their cash flows, their commitments, their past performance and we have no doubt that they will be able to repay this loan on their own. Even if we are guaranteeing, they will be able to pay. One of the reasons why you people are saying that I have been successful, what I have done is that I have freed companies that can be able to access funds on their own to do so and not come to Treasury. That is the directive I gave. Therefore, Kenya Power, KenGen, Kenya Airways and all the other companies will not get finances from Treasury. If the company is in a position to meet its obligations or repay their loans, they go the private sector and borrow. Therefore, I am only left to finance those sectors that are needed socially or for
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to second this Motion for guaranteeing a loan from the European Investment Bank to support the expansion of JKIA. If you have been to JKIA of late you will realize that work is already going on there and, indeed, expansion is needed to make JKIA grow and become a hub for the airlines industry in this region and it is already doing so. If you go to JKIA you will see the congestion that we are experiencing. People have observed that Kenya Airways have had problems of late but I associate these problems with the phenomenon of expansion. Any company that begins to expand exponentially as Kenya Airways has done over the last couple of years, sooner or later, it meets its problem of matching its expenses with its profits to the extent to which you can invest to expand and therefore incur a lot of recurrent expenditure in managing and expanding the company or investment. When the graph catches up where profits begin exceeding expenses substantially, there is always that problem. Some companies do actually go under if the expansion is not managed responsibly. We have seen some American Airlines which were growing up very fast and all of a sudden they close shop and sell their assets to other companies. This is one of the things that Kenya Airways must manage. In this regard we are not talking about Kenya Airways but KAA which is an Authority responsible for managing the ports in our nation, particularly the major airports that we have like Mombasa, Kisumu, Eldoret, Nairobi and so on. The KAA must make sure that the airline industry has an enabling environment in terms of physical facilities at the airport. The Sessional Paper that has been laid on the Table of this House explains very clearly what this request today is. I believe that this request follows what is stipulated, not just in the Public Finance Management Act, but also in Guarantee of Loans Act. Therefore, the Minister is being very responsible by bringing this matter to the House so that the money is acquired legally. I do remember in the old KANU days, that is, in the 1990s, the Moi Government used to incur a lot of loans without bothering to bring anything to Parliament. That was the problem with the Goldenberg Scandal. Once this thing is brought to Parliament as we have, and once we look at the Sessional Paper itself, the Minister has been very transparent to the National
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity. I thank the Minister for bringing the Motion. However, I want to oppose it. The idea is very noble because our airports are really in a pathetic state. I talked to an international traveler who came in yesterday. He said that the jet landed when there was rain. The whole place was flooded because we do not take care of very basic things like that. So, the idea is very noble, but the timing is wrong. I oppose.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to strongly support this Motion. It is important that we realize the opportunity that is there in expanding Jomo Kenyatta International Airport (JKIA). This will very easily make our airport the hub of international travel in this country. It is only through this kind of funding that as we make it the hub of international travel, it will be competitive, secure and make sure that the process of doing that business is also profitable. Finally, it will create job opportunities for our youth. We cannot just sit back and let this opportunity pass through our fingers. Those of you who have travelled in the region have seen what has happened at Kigali. Within a very short time, Rwanda has a very nice international airport. What a shame it is that the founding father of the nation, President Kenyatta, is the one who had the vision that we are seeing today. Where was Mr. Moi? What did he do? How come President Kibaki; the great economist, has not seen the wisdom to do what he is attempting to do now? I look forward to the next President opening up that opportunity. I support.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to also strongly support this Motion. Kenya is supposed to be the hub of Africa. As we speak today, we are getting challenges, especially from Ethiopia. It is important that we expand our airport and modernize it. I am glad to hear from the Minister that the Authority will service this loan on its own. I beg to support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to support this Motion very strongly. We have just passed The International Interests in Aircraft Equipment and the Civil Aviation Bills. In addition to that, we have positioned ourselves and claimed that we want to be the hub of the region. We know that the Kenya Airways has failed to expand faster because it cannot acquire big planes like the airbus which has better pay load.
Thank you Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir for giving me an opportunity to support this Motion for the adoption of the Sessional Paper No.15 of 2012 on the Kenya Government guarantee loan of Kshs93 million dollars to the KAA. The modernization and rehabilitation of the Kenya Airport cannot be over emphasized because we know that at the international level, Nairobi is a hub for air transport connectivity. Therefore, we need to be competitive within the region where others are coming into play. We must ensure that Kenya is ahead of all those other people. The other bit is that I wish my colleague, hon. Millie, to have any fears that this is only a guarantee. All we know is that a guarantee is a contingent liability which the Government can be turned to pay only if the KAA defaults in payment. However, we know the strength of the KAA. There is no way it can default on the payment having seen their balance sheet and having prospects of expanding business once the airport has been modernized. With those remarks, I beg to support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to support. The Government, although very late, should know and capitalize on the good will of Parliament as far as infrastructure is concerned whether it is roads, airports or rail. This House has been committed. The Speaker has been very clear and so are we. I have a word of caution to my good friend who is here. Do not be suspicious, especially when Prof. Anyang’-Nyong’o has spoken. I support.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. I also rise to support this Motion because it is important to accomplish the works that have already started. We need to make JKIA the real pride of Africa. This will allow bigger aircrafts to be landing in our capital City. Therefore, this money must be allowed to flow in and be properly utilized for the intended cause. Looters should not be allowed to go there. I support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also rise to support this Motion knowing the importance of air travel. We have seen a country like South Africa taking a very big share of air travel because their airport is one of the biggest and its
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir I would like to take this time to support this Motion on the adoption of Sessional Paper No.15 of 2012 on KAA for the Rehabilitation and Expansion of the JKIA. The JKIA is an airport that should be a global destination which the whole world will look at and see, as others have said before me, the pride of Africa and the pride of Kenya. The expansion of the JKIA will create job opportunities and expand our economic growth. That will help attract many investors to this country because there will be easy connection and communication with other countries. This will give an opportunity to our young people who have wasted their time looking for job opportunities. With these few remarks, I support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand to support this very important Motion. Expanding JKIA is actually expanding our economy. This will enable us to do exports and imports. Therefore, this is a very important move by the KAA and guaranteed by the Government for this loan, so that this area of the economy can be expanded. We will have efficiency in tourism, trade, movement of goods and, especially our horticultural products. By expanding this airport, our farmers will be enabled to send their produce to destinations outside the country. So, I want to support this very important Motion. We want to urge the Kenya Airways Board to efficiently and effectively use this money with the supervision of the Minister for Finance who I know as a great friend and a very efficient. Let me commend him and thank him for pushing the agenda of the economy forward. With those few remarks, I support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me take this opportunity to thank hon. Members for their very valuable contributions and say that Kenya Airways is in a position to meet its liabilities. So, really, we should not fear that the Government will be called upon to repay. They project that the passenger figures will increase from 2.5 million to almost 9.5 billion, but I agree with the hon. Members that we need a second runway at JKIA. It is embarrassing that if there is a small mishap at the runway, then the whole airport has to be closed. So, that is one of the things that the KAA wants to do. They want to have a second runaway exactly for this purpose. With those words, I thank hon. Members and I beg to move.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Motion:- THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Departmental Committee on Education, Research and Technology on the consideration of nomination of the Chairperson and Members of the Teachers Service Commission laid on the Table of the House today, Wednesday, 9th January, 2013. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, in moving this Motion, I want to still reiterate the importance of the Teachers Service Commission (TSC) in ensuring the management of the teachers, principals and ensuring the quality service, therefore, quality education for our nation. Earlier on, we had names presented to us. There were serious concerns that led to the rejection of the report by this honourable House. One of the issues was that there were allegations that some of the people or members who applied were under investigations a report that we did not have evidence on then. In the list that was presented to Parliament, there is a letter that was attached to it from the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC) dated 18th October 2012 and signed by Abdi M. Muhamud. In this list, it gives the position on the report on all the applicants. Therefore, the name that was forwarded to this House retains the name of one Mr. Kiragu Wamagochi. We, as Committee, looked at his papers and we recommended his appointment. On the other issue of the commissioners, we were supposed to get three commissioners and the serious concern that we had was that meritocracy had not been followed and we did not have information why the numbers one to four candidates were not considered. In the list that is now presented to us and I read it; Number one of the people who was interviewed was Mr. Cleophas Tirop who scored 81.4 per cent. The second person who had been proposed for nomination was one, Fredrick Hata Ochieng who scored 71.6 per cent. He was in position four and he is visually impaired and the third person proposed is Adan Sheikh Abdullahi who had scored 70.3 per cent and was position five from Garissa County. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, considering all these, we interviewed them and we recommended their appointment to these very important positions in Government. Therefore, I beg to move that this House adopts this Report. I call upon hon. P.C. Muturi Mwangi, Member of Parliament for Kiharu and also a Member of my Committee to second this Motion.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is the second time we are having this list. Previously, it was rejected. Now it has come back with improvements and corrections. I want to support the Motion because TSC has not had a chairman for quite some time now. The Act was passed and this House knows that TSC has a very big challenge. We have a shortage of teachers in every county to the tune of 60,000. Now that the evidence has been given to the Principals and they have forwarded to us the names of the commissioners and the chairperson to be approved by this House, I
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me this opportunity. I wish to support this report with an amendment. When this report was brought to the House and was returned, the issue was that the names that had been forwarded had not followed the merit rating because one, Dr. Lydia Nzomo, who was rated first was omitted with the reason that there was an anti-corruption investigations on her. When the Chair was moving this Motion, he said that, and I quote:- “The report they got, so far, talked about anti-corruption, but they did not have the opportunity of seeing that report or any recommendation from the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC)” So, on not tabling this report the second time has the Committee got that report to confirm that, yes, there is already an offence that this lady has committed? Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the absence of that and for purposes of ensuring that merit always rules, to adopt this report, I propose an amendment which is to delete the recommendation No.1 of the Committee which talks about the appointment of the Chair. But I support fully the appointment of Commissioners.
Mr. M’Mithiaru, have you moved?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I moved and request hon. C. Kilonzo to second.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank my good colleague for bringing this amendment. As I second, I wish to state as follows. One, Maria Nzomo is still the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of the Kenya Institute of Education (KIE). Two, this business of making allegations and then condemning somebody without hearing her side of story is not good. If this House follows that route, we will not do justice to our people. You are innocent until proved otherwise. Ms Nzomo was not aware that she was even under investigation until this matter came to Parliament. So, let us use as a good example so that, in future, we do not condemn people unheard and on the basis of allegations. Those of you who run big organizations know that every time you try to bring change, change will always fight back. People will always try to fight against changes. So, it is very important that we protect those people who are committed to bring change. Those of us who have worked with Dr. Nzomo will attest to the fact that this is one of the good reformers within the education sector. With those few remarks, I beg to second.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand to support the amendment because it is not right for people just to eliminate a person because they do not want them by alleging things that are not known by the person. These issues come up
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the amendment. I support the amendment very strongly because I want to assert it is wrong for people to allege things without any proof against other people and damage their reputation. I happen to have been an Assistant Minister in the Ministry of Education and Mrs. Lydia Nzomo was in the Kenya Institute of Education, where she did a commendable job. She is a lady of high integrity. I really feel that unless there is proof of corruption and a report is tabled, this House should not impute ill motives on this lady who has served this country very well in the high position she was accorded by the Government. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I oppose this list as a whole because it is not gender sensitive. It has completely excluded gender. I feel that this list should go back and comply with the constitutional one third gender rule. I, therefore, support part of the amendment that we do not support the Chair who has been proposed. I also reject the whole list because it lacks gender participation. So, it is against the Constitution.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want to make one correction to what the hon. Minister has said, that the Commission has eight Commissioners and a Chairman. We already have five Commissioners sitting up to June and among them are three women. I just wanted to make that clarification so that we do not confuse Members.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also want to add my voice to this debate. Whatever panel dealt with this, needs to be investigated itself on integrity. It must be investigated on integrity because Mr. Mbarak Said Twahir has allegations of embezzlement of funds for World Bank funded Kenya Education Sector Support Programme at the Ministry of Education. I happen to know this person. I happen to know the case that was put against him. The case did not have any ground; so it was dismissed. It is not in court. Here it says that the case was taken up for investigations and is currently pending in court. This is a lie. This is perjury. This is a serious problem. This is a disabled person who uses crutches. He should have been a very senior person for a very long time. He has been marginalized; he has never been given a chance. Even on further investigation by the Director of Public Prosecutions, it was found that this thing was in itself occasioned because of malice. Whoever took him to court was somebody who was trying to make sure that he did not get the next promotion.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me an opportunity to contribute. From the outset, I must declare my interest; one of the candidates who had been rejected earlier on comes from my constituency. That is Cleopas Tirop. I want to say that merit should be used in appointing officers. It is so unfair to subject someone to an interview and, later on, reject him on flimsy reasons. This time round, the principals have it correctly. Therefore, let those who are qualified to be given an opportunity. With those remarks, I support the Report.
Hon. Members, I want to sort out the amendment, so that you can have the substantive debate.
Hon. Members, let me now read out the Motion as amended, so that you can make your contributions: THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Departmental Committee on Education, Research and Technology on the consideration of nomination of the chairperson and members of the Teachers Service Commission laid on the Table of the House today, Wednesday, 9th January, 2013, subject to deletion of recommendation (i) appearing on page 13 of the Report.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I can now support the Report as amended. My concern was that we raised very serious issues of gender discrimination. Women always do well, but we tend to create all manner of excuses to get them out of contention. I know that by the amendment, we have not brought in the woman, but it gives her an opportunity to be re-considered. If the panellists and the appointing authority are listening, they should hear clearly that we really do not think there is a problem with one Lydia Nzomo, unless they have a problem with the name “Nzomo” because the other time Maria Nzomo was brought forward, her name was rejected. Now Mrs. Lydia Nzomo is brought in, the name is rejected. So, it looks like there is a problem with the gender and “Nzomo” bits. I now support the Motion as amended. Let us give women opportunity.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand here to support the Report as amended. You will remember that the other night we were here. We aired all
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me also add my voice to what other hon. Members have said; that the rules that were established in establishing this Commission were intended to prevent anybody, irrespective of what office one holds, from circumventing justice and preventing qualified Kenyans from occupying offices they deserve to occupy. The accusations that are being raised against Lydia Nzomo have never been proven. She was never asked questions relating to them when she was interviewed. So, these were afterthoughts that were brought in to make sure that she was kept aside, so that other people who were favoured by whoever could be given the position. It is the responsibility of this House to make sure that there is fair play in appointments, so that the most qualified Kenyans can be given positions. When we see that rules are not being followed and situations are being manipulated so that particular individuals are rejected, this House comes in to make sure that justice is done. I am happy with what the House has done, especially given the history that this particular lady has gone through. She served in the TSC for many years, but she was, again, bypassed and kept aside. When she qualified for a certain position, she was never given the opportunity. She was moved out to another position. Now, again, she was interviewed for a position she qualifies. She scored more marks than many of the interviewees, but she was bypassed again, so that other people who are less qualified could be picked. It is, therefore, important that this House sends a message to the interviewing panels and the appointing authority, so that the rules can be strictly followed. The gender rule should also be strictly followed, so that the women of this country can be treated as equal citizens. With those remarks, I beg to support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also want to add my voice to this matter. I have gone through the records of the Commissioners and established that
What is your point of order, hon. Magerer?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would not really like to interrupt my Deputy Speaker, but just as a point of correction---
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I corrected it myself by saying that Cleopas is not invalid. The person who is disabled is Fredrick Haga Ochieng. Cleopas also has a good history.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also want to add my voice in support of this report. Initially, I had some very fundamental problems with the report because I really felt that justice was not at play. There was gender-insensitivity in the sense that somebody who had made it academically and professionally was denied a chance by this Commission. Now with this amendment, I can comfortably support this report; even those people who are disabled are given an opportunity to serve this nation. It shows that disability is not inability. With those few remarks, I support the Report.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I was wondering why the Deputy Speaker spoke twice when he came to the Chamber.
Order. You have already approached the Chair on that and I have explained why.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was not directing it to the Chair; I was just wondering to myself. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I pride myself as a Member of the Kenya Women Parliamentary Association (KEWOPA). We have stood as a Parliament with the women of Kenya to ensure that gender considerations are taken into account. The only reason Mrs. Lydia Nzomo was not considered was one, a simple reason, namely her gender and nothing else. I knew Mrs. Nzomo when she was at the TSC. She did a good job in all the issues that I brought to her attention affecting the teachers of Turkana County. I want to agree with the Deputy Speaker that, that panel needs to be investigated. When the report was brought to the committee chaired by the distinguished former principal, David Koech, they said nothing about her name. It was much later that we heard one Mr. Kimemia purporting to talk to Parliament through the media. I think it is time that these civil servants appreciated Parliament. Now they have brought a letter
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand here to support the Motion as amended. I do not know why the Principals want to put us through this and we reject their recommendations. It is very clear that we must consider the issue of gender. When they make such decisions, they give us no choice, but to reject their recommendations. We are doing this with heavy hearts because we wanted to go home with smiling faces, but we are disappointing our own Principals. I hope from this they will learn something; even their advisors will learn that such issues cannot pass unnoticed. Also, according to most of the hon. Members here, the next recommended commissioner should be a lady and, preferably, Mrs. Nzomo. I will not touch on these false allegations because they have not been proved; they have been discussed. What I want to say is that the TSC can still do its work with two commissioners, the ones whose names have not been deleted. I wish them well in their new job. It is a very important institution. Our teachers need a lot of support and a good commission. With those remarks, I support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also want to add my voice in supporting the Motion as amended. Now that there has been the explanation about gender, and that there are three other women who are in the first group that is very acceptable. But I still want to insist that we have very few women chairing commissions. We do not yet have our one third when you put all the commissions together; they should even be more.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the Motion with amendments. It is very unfortunate that in this country sometimes we have double standards. It is clear we passed the Constitution and it has to be followed to the letter. The gender issue has to be considered and recognized. As a Member of the Education Committee, I have no doubt that Mrs. Nzomo is fit for this position. We do recommend that she is very fit for it since she was interviewed. She deserves this position. So, I support.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to this very important debate. I want to say that this behaviour of subjecting personalities to an interview, rating them and then coming back to say that they do not qualify because of things other than what the interview looked for is not acceptable. I want to thank this House for setting a good precedent that if you go through an interview and pass it you qualify to get the position. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the issue of integrity should have been sorted out way before these candidates were cleared to sit for this interview. I want to say the role of the TSC in the education system of our country is really very important. I want to really plead that we have men and women of integrity who deserve the opportunity to serve in this Commissions. When I look at the list in general, and the amendment that has been passed a few minutes ago by this House, I believe that the Parliament of Kenya has lived up to expectations. I urge strongly that Mrs. Lydia Nzomo, who scored highly in terms of merit, should actually be given the opportunity to chair this commission. I am a man, but do not belong to the group of male chauvinists who still believe that women may not be able to deliver as well as, probably, their fellow men. If women have qualified for these opportunities, let us not go round just to try and deny them the obvious. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand to support the Report as amended. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if this is not discrimination; I do not know what is. This is just bad. I want to thank the House for figuring it out. I also want to thank the Chairman of the Committee who does meticulous work for standing for what is right the other time and this time. When the names were presented before this House last week or thereabout, there was nothing about Mrs. Lydia Nzomo being investigated by the EACC. Then today, somebody brings a letter saying that she is being investigated by the EACC. The EACC as it were is not even properly constituted. Somebody even had the audacity to put in the newspapers that before you run for a political office, somebody
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, in supporting the amended Motion, I note that the regional balance requirement has not been considered. The whole of Coast region does not have any representation in this Commission. This could be one of the factors that are triggering violence in this area. So, in future, regional balance, as stipulated in the Constitution, must be complied with. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Mrs. Lydia Nzomo is not a criminal. This is a decent lady who is well experienced. She is managing the only curriculum development centre in the country. I conclude that the allegations already raised could be inspired by enemies of this lady. If the allegations have any atom of truth, the EACC should institute charges immediately against this lady. As of now, there are no proven charges against this lady. Therefore, she qualifies to be given this appointment. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I support the amended Motion.
I now call upon the Mover to reply.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to thank this House and the two Principals for their quick action. Remember that it was just the other day when this House rejected the first names and they were very quick in responding and sending us new names. But I just want to say to the two Principals that we know that they are very busy Kenyans. Therefore, there is always need to give time to reports that are given to them by various panels that are nominated to sit and interview people, so that some of these small anomalies could be corrected. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I want to totally agree with the House that the Panel needs to be investigated. From the word go, there were serious concerns by Kenyans until we, as a Committee, even summoned the panel ourselves. For the information of the House, the name of Lydia Nzomo was actually not forwarded to the two Principals. So, they are really clean as far as the position of Mrs. Lydia Nzomo is concerned. Many Kenyans raised a lot of issues and I support the need to investigate this team. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, by returning the position of the Chair, I want to believe that the Teachers Service Commission, with eight Commissioners can function until such a time that we will get a substantive Chair who shall have gone through a competitive process that is transparent, open and has no discrimination and malice in it. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish those who are going to be appointed the best. This county expects a lot from them. We know that there are serious concerns about teachers’ management in this country. There are also serious concerns on the relationship between the Ministry of Education and the Teachers Service Commission.
Hon. Members before we call the next Order, let me on behalf of the Members of the Speaker’s Panel who have had occasion to preside on behalf the Speaker or Deputy Speaker, because this may very well be my last time, thank the Speaker, Deputy Speaker and the hon. Members for the support that you have given us and the time you have allowed us to preside over the sessions of this House. We wish you all the best. Happy New Year!
Hon. Members, before we take Order No.17, I have the following Communication to make. I would like to guide the House on the procedure which we shall apply to the consideration of the Report of the Procedure and House Rules Committee containing the Draft Standing Orders of the National Assembly, Draft Standing Orders of the Senate and Draft Joint Rules. First, the Motion for the adoption of the Committee Report will be moved, seconded and proposed in the usual manner. In debating this Motion which will last for a maximum of one hour, hon. Members may make general comments on the content of the Report. At the end of the debate on the Motion, I will not put the Question. Instead, I will ask the Leader of Government Business to move the Motion: “That Mr. Speaker Do now Leave the Chair.” If agreed to,
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Maybe, you could give us further guidance because with my eye on the wall clock and remembering that we have
Dr. Khalwale, my guidance in that regard would be that from this Communication as I have made, I have clearly indicated that the House will debate the Motion and that that debate will last a maximum – and I used the words “a maximum of one hour.” So, the House, in its wisdom, particularly given that the House has interacted with the proposed Standing Orders variously, including at a Speaker’s Kamukunji, maybe, the House may not want to utilize the maximum of one hour. As to whether or not the Adjournment Motion has a chance, any opinion on that at this stage will amount to anticipating debate and the Speaker must be thoroughly guarded on that particular one. So, I will not indicate the fate of the Adjournment Motion.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Procedure and House Rules Committee on Draft Standing Orders of the National Assembly, the Senate and the Joint Rules laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday December 19, 2012. It gives me great pleasure to move this particular Motion to adopt the Committee’s Report as a member of the Speaker’s Panel and by virtue of that, as a Member of the Procedure and House Rules Committee. The Procedure and House Rules Committee is established pursuant to provisions of Section 56 of the former Constitution as saved in Section III to the Sixth Schedule and the National Assembly Standing Order No.191 in force since 2008. Under the provisions of Standing Order No.191(2), (3) and (4), the Committee has three specific mandates, but I will just mention two. The first one is to consider and report on all matters relating to the Standing Orders and the second one is to propose amendments to the Standing Orders. That is exactly why this Motion is before the House today. In February 2011, pursuant to the provisions of the stated Standing Order, the Procedure and House Rules Committee embarked on the drafting of the Standing Orders for both the National Assembly and the Senate. This exercise has been extensive, consultative and included legislative experts, civil society groups, scholars, parliamentary officials, the Kenya Women Parliamentary Association Members, Parliamentary Initiatives Network, FIDA-Kenya, ICJ-Kenya and the Institute of Certified Public Accountants of Kenya (ICPAK), among other professional bodies. In furtherance of this mandate, the Committee, I must appreciate, was supported by the taskforce of the National Assembly comprising of clerks, legal counsel and especially the budget officers. The members of the Committee and the taskforce had the opportunity to visit various countries with comparable systems of Government and
Hon. Members, even as Mr. Imanyara comes to second that Motion, allow me to confirm the sentiments expressed by the hon. Member for Turkana
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I second this Motion. In doing so, I want to thank you as the Chair of the Committee for the leadership you have shown not only in the setting up of precedence and rules that govern the conduct of business in this House, but also for interpreting those rules setting ground for future conduct that would be of tremendous help to those who sit in your Chair after you and those who will sit in the Chair of the Senate speakership. Mr. Speaker, Sir, as the Mover has said, these amendments were brought as a result of the need to comply with the provisions of the new Constitution. Even before the new Constitution came into operation, hon. Members will recall that four years ago, again at your instance we had very comprehensive amendments to the Standing Orders that not only brought in the live broadcast, but in many ways changed the manner in which we do business in this House. That also enabled this House to carry forward business that was unfinished during the previous period as well as setting up procedures for the budget allocation. Mr. Speaker, Sir, given that in the next Parliament, Members of Parliament would not be Ministers, it was essential to provide detailed and extensive provisions that would govern the conduct between the Executive and the Legislature. That is a role that has been captured in these two sets of rules that we have been taken through by the Mover. I do not wish to say too much, except that in the Senate, you see that in the joint committees that we are introducing, there is an important new committee that has been proposed, that is, the Joint Intelligence Committee that has been informed by the need to conduct our affairs on the basis of understanding the national security. Members will note that in the proposed Joint Intelligence Committee, Members who sit in the Committee and also the Clerks will be required to take a special oath of secrecy and also to undergo a vetting process. These are issues that have arisen, that is the practical reality that has to arise as a result of the security challenges this country has faced. These are all reflected in this report. The purpose of the joint rules is to enable the orderly conduct of business when the two Houses are sitting as one. So, because all these have been set out very clearly and comprehensively, I am privileged, indeed, to second this Motion and I do second it.
Hon. Members, we will want to limit every contribution to a maximum of three minutes.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to support this Report as a Member of this Committee. I want to pay special tribute to the Committee that was very accommodating on the views that were brought by Kenya Women Parliamentarian Association (KEWOPA), Kenya Federation of Women Lawyers (FIDA) and all other women organizations. We know through the traditions of this House that for a while it has been difficult for women to find their space. Without Standing Orders being sensitive
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I support this Report. These are, indeed, very exciting times to the extent that it forces me to acknowledge you and pay my special tribute that you have created a place for yourself in the history of this country because of the way you have transformed Parliament. You will remember that once upon a time we were with you in Canada. Looking back at what has taken place since, I would like us to forget all that we talked that time, but reiterate that whatever the outcome of the next general elections, because political parties and coalitions are using the position of Speaker to advance their interests, an innocent man like me hopes that the ideal person to implement the new Standing Order would be none other than Mr. Kenneth Marende. However, that will wait for another day because we will have to vote at that stage. I looked at the issue that took place in this House in January, 2008 when there was a lot of debate and confusion for your election. I told myself that beyond these Standing Orders, the next Parliament should think of enacting a particular law, so that it clarifies forever the process of electing the Speaker of the Senate, the Speaker of the National Assembly and the Speakers of the County Governments. We are lucky that God prevailed on that day, otherwise, we would have failed to have a Speaker, this House would not have been sworn in and Kenya would have continued burning. I, therefore, appeal to Members of Parliament who will make it to the National Assembly and to the Senate to strongly consider the possibility of having a law that we could call the Election of the Speakers Act that would give force to what I have just said. Finally, I want to congratulate the Committee on the issue of innovation. The Committee has been very innovative. I am not surprised because hon. Gitobu Imanyara and hon. Ekwee Ethuro are always equal to the task. There are two committees that you have created. That is the Committee on Mediation and the Joint Committee of the Senate and the National Assembly. These are very critical committees.
Your time is up, Member for Ikolomani! We will not forget what we discussed in Canada. We will keep it on record.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I also want to join my colleagues in supporting this Report and in congratulating the Committee for doing a very
Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to support this Report. I support this Report and congratulate you as the Chairman of the Committee and all the Committees for putting a lot of effort in this Report, as detailed as it is which does not surprise me because you are a very thorough person. I happened to have worked under you; a privilege I will never forget. I want to thank you very much for that. I know how thorough and detailed you are. This House has always recognized the detailed way in which you carry out the work of this House. As I support this Report, I want to say that this is really one of the most important tools that will be required when we have the two Houses. This will be the first time we will have two Houses in Kenya. It has to be very clear which House will be doing what, how the two will relate and how movement of information will be between the two Houses. It is important for us to start right when we have the Senate and the House. We want to thank the Committee because they have been thorough in trying to separate the powers between the two Houses and showing how Bills will be moved in the two Houses. Without that, we will start the wrong way and it will be very difficult for us. I also want to laud the creation of joint committees and in particular the Committee of Cohesion and Integration. It is very important that we close in on the areas of conflict and those that divide, so that the two Houses recognize that they are not being divided for anything, except for purposes of efficiency in this country. We expect that some of the Bills will be moved in the two Houses. Those of us who are intending not to be in this House, but to go and serve at the local level as governors will be very happy to see a very cohesive Parliament between the two Houses. On Part XXV, the Standing Order No.235 of the Senate stipulates a new area which is the procedure of dealing with reports that come from the East Africa Legislative Assembly (EALA) and those that come from the Pan African Parliament (PAP). This, I
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to join my colleagues in paying tribute to the panel or the Committee that prepared these Standing Orders. As I say so, I want to appreciate the time put in by all the Members and, especially by the leadership of the Committee. I have heard a lot of tribute being paid to you, but I thought that we were waiting for the Motion for Adjournment to do that. I hope that we will get there soon. Let me say that the challenge in making Standing Orders for the Senate which we have not sat in or seen was great. It will, probably, call for a bit of correction in the period when the Senate starts functioning. Be that as it may, I believe that this House has done its best in providing the Senate a very soft landing ground as they come in as first timers. In that regard, I wish my friends who will go to the Senate, well. An example is Dr. Khalwale who has worked very hard in the Committees that I have served with him and others who have been very supportive to the success of this Parliament. With those few remarks, I support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also want to take this opportunity to thank the Members of this Committee. I think I missed an opportunity. I do not remember the day when there was a kamukunji to have gone through this. But if it happened when I was away, I still appreciate. However, these are good Standing Orders that comply with the new Constitution. However, there are areas that I will be proposing amendments having worked in the security sector for the last four years and also foreign affairs and having also interacted with many other jurisdictions both in the developing and developed countries. We need to be careful in the way we combine the functions of both the Senate and the National Assembly. We need to allow some leeway for each of the Houses to actually have some originating jurisdiction on the formation of select or joint committees so that that unique function of either the National Assembly or the Senate is not impaired by that amorphous grouping because it was tried sometime. This is a reflection of the joint committees by the current National Assembly. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the areas that I will be proposing amendments are that if you look at the National Assembly Standing Orders, especially on Defence and Foreign Relations Committee, there is a correlation between defence and foreign relations. In the Standing Orders, there is an attempt to lump together defence and homeland security. Again, these are completely two different fields. If you look at America that is the case and the retired general is here. So, we need to separate that aspect so that homeland security which is unique and if there is going to be a unique committee called Homeland Committee that has to deal with a particular issue within the county, then again that is not impaired by an issue that touches on an external threat. In particular, a section of our Committee Members went to America. We also knew that there was going to be these Standing Orders. We interacted with our colleagues in Congress and also in the United Kingdom (UK). We realized that Defence and Foreign Relations Committees are very common. If you go by what is proposed here, defence is
Order! Hon. Keynan, your time is actually up! Yes, hon. M’Mithiaru!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to support this report on the Procedure and Rules Committee concerning the Standing Orders of the National Assembly and the Senate. Let me also commend the committee under your chairmanship for having come up with these Standing Orders for both Houses and definitely it has been a real commitment for the Committee to quickly come up with the Report. So, all I know is that under your chairmanship, many things have happened and already we are prepared for the two Houses because we were wondering what would happen if we have the Senate and the National Assembly and already the rules concerning the Senate were not in place, but now it so. It is a big commendation and Kenyans owe you quite a lot on this. For some of us who I know are going to be in the Eleventh Parliament, we shall really be remembering what steps you have done. We also look forward to your guidance even in the Eleventh Parliament. However, one thing that comes up because I do not want to repeat what others have said, most questions that have been asked and we are trying to belabour them in our minds is that we know we are going to have the ladies who will be elected as county representatives and those who will be elected from the constituency. The other day, they were asking: In terms of supremacy, who carries more weight in terms of the elective constituency? I am sure in considering some of the Standing Orders, it is good also to find out what would happen when such things come up within the social intercourse as far as the hon. Members are concerned. I support and I wish the Committee the best in this year.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I take this opportunity to support this report of the Standing Orders. I have spent a considerable part of my life in the last three years in this House. I have appreciated what it needs to have working frameworks that guide debate and operation in terms of where we go and when these need to be adjudicated in a certain manner. However, more importantly, we are moving into a new dispensation. I am glad that this House was there to provide the guidance for the Senate and I hope this will also translate into the other houses in order for the county assemblies so that people can do business in one uniform manner across the entire country as one unitary state other than each county coming out with its own unique ways of doing things which could well create a situation where this country is seem to be a country of 47 mini countries. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the fact that these Standing Orders will be a live document, I hope that for us who have booked space in this House and in this Senate, that we will have an opportunity to work with these new Standing Orders on a continuous basis and
Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me this chance to add my voice in support of this report. I want to take this chance to thank you so sincerely for your guidance and the support you have given to all us. Particularly me being a first timer and chairing a departmental committee, you have given me a lot of guidance and that made me what I am today. So, thank you so much for the support you have given to me personally and the support you have also given to the other hon. Members. I want to particularly thank this Committee for the work they have done and also to thank the other committees of this House because they have made history. You remember the Parliamentary Select Committee on the Constitutional Review. It did a lot of work. There are very many committees that have done a lot of work. I want to thank them for the work they have done. I want also to thank the Kenya Women Parliamentary Association although they are few they have done a lot of work. They have given an eye to every issue that came on board, particularly on issues of gender by looking in between the words and letters so that they could add value to any issue that came before this House. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also want to thank this Committee, particularly because we have the county assembly Standing Orders in a draft form. We have prepared it and when the counties are in place we shall have the Standing Orders from where they will start. They will not start from a vacuum. They will have a draft which they will work with. Under your leadership, I thank you for preparing this country so that we do not have each county preparing its own Standing Orders. Mr. Speaker, Sir, these Standing Orders reflect how we are going to interact among ourselves and with the Executive. These are procedures that are standard. The business of the House will be guided. Once we are in the new dispensation, we will not be burning the midnight oil to prepare for the future. We are preparing for a future, so that we do not create---
Mr. Speaker, Sir, let me also take this opportunity to thank you for your wise leadership and guidance. You have been able to
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to support and appreciate the work of the Committee. Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are getting into a two- house system after the next elections. That system will have its challenges. At the Independence, this country had that same system. But for some reason, maybe for challenges, the leaders at that time could not deal with; they turned the two-House systems into one, which we have today. Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is great that our Committee has developed draft rules and Standing Orders that will make this country ready for the new system that we are going into. For that reason, I wish to congratulate the Committee. Mr. Speaker, Sir, since 2008 when we got this coalition Government, we have had serious challenges in this country. Quite often those challenges and problems found their ways to your Chair. You had the wisdom and steadfastness and commitment to deal with these problems. When they came here, you guided this House. You guided this country to overcome challenges which could have led us into some serious problems that I did not know how we would have handled them. Congratulations for that. I do not know what you intend to do with yourself after the next election, but I wish and hope that you will be on the same Chair, so that we use your wisdom to guide this country once more.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to add my voice in support of the new Standing Orders and draft rules. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this will guide our National Assembly and the Senate after the next general election. They will further enhance the reforms in our Parliament as required by our new Constitution. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to thank you. You have always led from the front. You have seen many reforms. You have shepherded this Parliament very well. As one of the
Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you for the chance to make a few remarks. Let me start by thanking the Chairman of this Committee for providing good leadership, and allowing generation of a good report that will assist the incoming National Assembly and Senate. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I personally admired, for the last five years, your stewardship in this House. Your humility, prudence and guidance have been of immense value. Indeed, you have been a good tutor. You have tutored me and I will continue to remember this. I also wish to thank the Parliamentary Service Commission (PSC) for allowing funds to be invested in this project. These funds have been used well to realize the current Standing Orders. These Orders will lay a firm foundation for the incoming Houses. They are Standing Orders that will be used for generations to come. I fully support.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also rise to support the Motion. I want to take this opportunity to congratulate you on your sterling performance. As your constituent, you have not disappointed me. I would pray that even if you lose the election you come back, because I know you are big asset to this nation. Let me say congratulation to the team that came up with the Draft Standing Orders. I was hoping to see the perpetuation of the use of the ranking Members beyond the swearing-in because I thought experience is important; but your team went out there. I was left here. I know that it is in your wisdom. Maybe, you have not considered that but I think it is important that there is ranking even up to the Committee level. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also made a remark in this House that the Committee sessions need to be guided in terms of management of time, just in the same way debate is regulated in this House in terms of time by assigning a definite amount of time to a debater. I thought it would be prudent to have regulation of the Committee sessions guided by the Standing Orders by way of regulating contributions. I had in mind the possibility of granting the Chair ten minutes to make opening remarks; six minutes to the next wrapping up Member and four minutes for each Member to interact. In doing so, you secure participation of Members in the debate. Otherwise Committees risk being properties of the Chairpersons, who may dominate debate and undermine the Committee by its own definition. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the other point I want to bring out relates to proposed Standing Order No.203 on engagement of experts. I think more thought needed to have gone into this aspect. Parliament is not a business enterprise. Parliament is a watchdog. Any expert advice we need is just for the purpose of furthering the work of Parliament. I thought the Committee could have recommended a standing payment for the experts---
Member for Rangwe, your time is up! Our time is similarly five minutes away. I will give those five minutes to the Mover to reply. This one is cast in stone, Member for Rangwe.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to thank each and every contributor for the comments they have made and especially for acknowledging the leadership role you have played in this Committee and the roles of the other Members. I know that the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations Committee is going to propose some amendments, you will advise him accordingly when you so wish. I just want to inform hon. Members that we took into account some of those suggestions, including the ones made by hon. Martin Ogindo. We realise that, maybe, until we go to the next Parliament, these things will play out much better, especially for ranking hon. Members. We certainly have that kind of information and knowledge. We are moving progressively and there will be a time for such considerations after we go into the new dispensation that we are going to take into account. With those remarks, I beg to move.
Hon. Members, that brings us to the end of the hour. Before I invite the Leader of Government Business to move the next Motion, may I put it on record that I sincerely appreciate the congratulatory sentiments that you have expressed in regard to me. I have taken them with the greatest humility. Indeed, they are very kind. I shall endeavour to continue to apply myself to the best of my ability to all future tasks in this nation. On that note, I invite the Leader of Government Business to move the Motion.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in moving the Motion, I associate myself fully with the congratulatory sentiments that my colleagues have expressed with regard to your particularly outstanding performance as our Speaker during the Tenth Parliament. We wish you well. I know that we have not had the last of you. With those remarks, I beg to move and ask hon. Kimunya to second the Motion.
(Mr. Kimunya) seconded.
Hon. Members, we will take the Standing Orders of the Senate first. Before the Standing Orders are called out, the Motion needs to be moved by hon. Ekwe Ethuro, on behalf of the Committee. The Motion is as I read in my Communication. Proceed, hon. Ekwe Ethuro.
Mr. Chairman, Sir, I beg to move that the Report of the Procedure and House Rules Committee on the proposed Standing Orders of the Senate, the National Assembly and the Joint Rules be adopted; and further that the new Standing Orders and Joint Rules as contained in the three Appendices to the Report of the Committee shall come into operation at the commencement of the next Parliament, pursuant to Article 126 of the Constitution.
Hon. Members, we will now take the Standing Orders of the Senate and the clerk-at-the-table will read out the proposed paragraphs.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT the Draft Standing Orders of the Senate be amended by deleting the proposed Standing Order No. 218. What informs this, and we need really to think and be very pragmatic, is that having overseen this very important organization, what we expect is to allow the Senate to deal with that organization because the functions of the Senate are clearly spelled out in the Constitution as to when it will require information from the intelligence agencies. If you look at Standing Order No.2(b) that is what we deleted from the NSIS Act. Therefore, putting it here when we have already deleted Standing Order No. 2(b), in my opinion, may not be right. Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, taking into account that this organisation has many different faces, amongst us, there are NSIS workers here as we sit. Therefore, if we accept this, technically we will be allowing them to pick their friends, constitute a committee which technically means that they will be overseeing themselves. So, I think the prudent way to do it is to allow each of the Houses to have its own independent intelligence committees and remove this joint one. If you look at the functions, the NSIS cuts across both defence and also homeland. Therefore, if we put this, in my opinion, and what we have seen over the last five years, it might not allow hon. Members a free atmosphere to interrogate, oversee and even interact with the organisation officials, taking into account the national security needs. Therefore, my proposal is to delete this Joint Committee and allow each of the Houses to have the latitude to come up with a joint committee as and when the situation demands instead of having it as one of the joint select committees. I want to ask Mrs. Odhiambo-Mabona to second my amendment.
Seconding in Committee would be superfluous. So, I will propose the Question.
Mrs. Odhiambo-Mabona, you can now speak to the amendment. I have proposed it.
Deputy Chairman, Sir, I support.
Mr. Ethuro, I see your request. This is not a very familiar position for me.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, the question that you are proposing in terms of deleting paragraph 218, I thought was not essentially what hon. Keynan was asking. His serious bone of contention was whether it should be a Joint Committee or each House can actually have its own Committee on intelligence. I thought that at the very worst, let us have each House have its own. But the whole purpose why we made this a Joint Committee is because we felt that these are real issues that affect the state. I think it was important for Parliament, as one arm of Government, to approach the issues of state intelligence with one united approach. Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I am definitely opposing the amendment.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, once we are through with this, I will be proposing subsequent amendments to the National Assembly Standing Orders and also the Joint Rules so that it is consistent. Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, if you look at the Schedules of the National Assembly Standing Orders, Defence has been put under the Homeland Security. You can ask Maj- Gen. Nkaisserry; it is not the tradition anywhere. So, what we will be doing is to propose amendments, have a separate Committee for Homeland Security and a different Committee for both Defence and Foreign Relations. Intelligence will be all over. So, instead of having a Joint Committee for both the Senate and the National Assembly, let us allow the Senate to have its own intelligence committee, whether they call it the National Security or whatever, and allow also the National Assembly to do the same. Look at the roles, you might require something at the county and that might not have anything to do with the National Assembly. It might be unique for the county. That is what I was trying to suggest. Otherwise, we will harmonize and each House will have its own intelligence committee. That is what I was trying to suggest. Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, therefore, all the subsequent amendments on the Senate Standing Orders, the National Assembly Standing Orders and the Joint Standing Orders will harmonize the same, so that each House has a distinct security committee that deals with that particular aspect, instead of that amorphous Joint Intelligence Committee. Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, if you look at it clearly, Standing Order No.218(2) (b) is not in tandem with what we have passed. Therefore, if something has already been rejected in an Act, then having it in the Standing Orders, again, really will negate the very spirit. That is what I was trying to suggest. So, it does not make sense as is captured here. More so, having oversighted this and taking into account the unique role of the National Intelligence Service (NIS)---The Chairman, everybody else and I work for the state. Therefore, allowing the same organization the latitude to pick individuals of their choice technically means that we will be asking them not to oversight themselves. So, we can as well even say that they are not under any Parliamentary oversight rule. So, I think that
Hon. Ethuro, you catch my eye for intervention!
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I was wondering if my good friend, the Chairman of the Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations is not confusing matters. If you look at the Second Schedule which is on page 100, where we have established the Standing Committees, the Senate has the National Security and Foreign Relations as a standing Committee on its own. If you look now at the proposed ones for the National Assembly which he has quoted on page 115, we have actually Committee (a) which is on National Security and another Committee (e) on Foreign Relations which deal with the kind of Homeland security that he is talking about. But this Joint Committee on Intelligence was actually meant purely for intelligence purposes. Whether the same NIS agency is vetting Members or not, this country must appreciate that there is a time that comes, in some of our previous experience as topnotch Executive of an organization, where you double-sign, because you must be given the ultimate authority and trust to do what is right.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I just wanted some clarification because hon. Keynan was almost convincing us, but now he has confused us. He says that he wants us to delete, but after what we have deleted, then what happens? Then, you say that you are going to bring amendments. When are you going to bring these amendments? After deletion before you bring your amendments, then what happens? If you are going to bring amendments, why do we not then approve the way it is and then, come up with amendments on all the paragraphs, so that they are reconciled? You were almost convincing us, but have left us now even more confused.
Hon. Keynan, you have the Floor, but restrict yourself to clarification. Do not repeat your contribution once more.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, what I was trying to suggest and I want hon. Ethuro also to appreciate, is that we are dealing with the Standing Orders for the Senate. Standing Order No.218 is the same as Standing Order No.215 in the National Assembly. Once we delete this, I will also be proposing amendments which are filed for the deletion of Standing Order No.215 in the National Assembly and Standing Order No.218 in the Senate. Subsequently, what we will be doing is also to amend the Second Schedule of the National Assembly to merge Defence and Foreign Relations. Again, if Defence and Foreign Relations are merged, we will have a separate Committee for Homeland Security which will be called Administration and National Security. That now will deal with Homeland Security, Home Affairs and a number of other issues. So, we will have Defence and Intelligence. Once we have the four amendments going through, then it will be very clear. The Senate will have its own Committee dealing with National Security and Foreign Affairs. That will include intelligence and all others. The National Assembly will have the same. Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, what I am trying to suggest is that once we are through with this amendment to Standing Order No.218 on the Senate, and we do the same for
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, the reason I will support the deletion of this clause is that when you look at all the other Joint Committees within the Senate, they have a lot to do with the coordination between the two Houses on matters that are shared by the two Houses. Intelligence is certainly not one of the issues in terms of the workings of the two Houses. So, I will be supporting the deletion from that perspective; that the Senate is constituted to deal with issues of county governments and support devolution. The National Assembly has national issues. You cannot put the two together and expect a result. So, I will be supporting, from that perspective, that this Committee looks like it is hanging when you compare it with the other Committee on National Cohesion, which is a shared issue, and also the Joint Committee on Broadcasting and Library but Intelligence is outside Parliament. It is actually now getting into other mandates within the Constitution. On that basis, I will be happy that we remove it and let those issues be handled in separate Houses based on the constitutional mandates of the Houses.
Mr. Chachu, does that take care of your concerns?
Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir.
Hon. Members, that concludes the Standing Orders as proposed for the Senate. We will now move to the Standing Orders for the National Assembly.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I had an amendment which I wanted the owner of the Draft Standing Orders to move, if you allow.
Procedurally, you should have worked on that earlier; is that not so? But anyway, let us hear hon. Ethuro.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I had actually put a request. It is on Standing Order No.203, that is, engagement of experts. Given our experience, we thought that we needed to amend it by adding that such expertise may be hired on consultancy terms.
Hon. Ethuro, the problem I have is that I do not have your proposed amendment in writing. That is a major problem. You know our procedures say that you furnish the Chair with the amendments as proposed in writing.
That is true, Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir. Neither did I have a copy of hon. Keynan’s amendments. I thought that since I have the privilege of moving, I could-- -
You want us to be a bit casual. This is like pushing us to bend backwards.
No, Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I thought it is an amendment that I can move on an amended version. It is not substantially altering the substance.
Well, we will overburden our clerks then.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, the lacuna that we are trying to cure here is that you would want to engage an expert on a consultancy basis and you are bogged down by the procurement processes, and we have seen this before. I just wanted to ask Mr. Ethuro to amend it further by saying that “this shall be done at the rate of US$100 per hour”.
Order, hon. Member for Rangwe. That is taking it too far. We have a proposed amendment and now you are speaking to the amendment and you are saying that you want us to do a further amendment to an amendment that is not yet carried. Order, hon. Members! I am now seized of the amendment as proposed by the hon. Member for Turkana Central as the sponsor of the Motion and it would be by way of a proviso to paragraph 203. The proposed amendment is that you add to paragraph 203 the following words:- “Provided such expertise may be hired at consultancy fee” So, I will proceed and put the question that paragraph 203 be amended by adding the words “provided such expertise may be hired at consultancy fee”
Our draftsmen will ensure that it is appropriately and properly captured. Hon. Members, you will notice that following that intervention, we then have dealt with paragraph 203. We have concluded Standing Order numbered as paragraph 203. We still have to deal with paragraphs numbered as 201 and 202. I had proposed that earlier and I will now put the Question that paragraphs 201 and 202 be part of the Standing Orders.
Mr. Keynan before you move your amendment, I propose the Question that the paragraph 215 be part of the Standing Order.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, this is just to harmonize. This is exactly what we did for the Standing Orders for the Senate. So, paragraph 215 is actually a repeat. I propose that it be deleted from this section.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, as I think about it, Mr. Keynan’s contribution looks mild but I feel it is extremely serious and I really want to go on record. Given the state of insecurity in this country, to deny Parliament an opportunity to provide that oversight, I think it is being irresponsible on our part. I wish to oppose.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I think Mr. Ethuro is not getting this. What we are saying is that there is going to be a Committee, as you will see in the subsequent amendments, each House will have their own separate security committees with the same functions. So, we are not removing the oversight role of Parliament in this. I want you to be persuaded because you are really somebody I respect. In essence, it would be wrong to say---
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I really want your protection because I am not in any way attempting to remove the oversight role of Parliament on the security agents. If anything, we are trying to harmonize and even make it better. We are even making it better so that we have a complete committee operating the way Mr. Kimunya has suggested. The issue of intelligence is very sensitive.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I am not convinced that Mr. Keynan is doing the right thing. All these issues of security and intelligence, in my view, are national issues. Insecurity in any part of the country should be dealt by Parliament in both Houses. I am not sure that what Mr. Keynan is doing is not attempting to create a conflict because at what point will which committee know when to take up a matter?
Mr. Chairman, Sir, I want to thank hon. Keynan. I am always inclined to agree with him. However, we are Members of Parliament. Friendship and respect at times count but not at the expense of what we think is the correct position. First, there was an argument earlier on the role of the Senate. If you look at Standing Order No.98(4), you will see that the Senate is supposed to provide the oversight role on the state including impeaching the President. Some of the information that will be required will be from the intelligence. That is one aspect. The second one is that hon. Keynan has talked about security while we are talking about intelligence. I have demonstrated that the Senate has one Committee on security while the National Assembly has two. We split these committees into National Security and Defence. That is already taken care of. What we were talking about is the entire intelligence system. They
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not sure that hon. Midiwo was there when I was making this clarification. However, the issue here is very clear. The Senate is not synonymous with the National Assembly. The two Houses have very distinct roles. One has a constitutional mandate to look at national issues while the other one has a constitutional mandate to look at county related issues. When you mix the two and bring them together, you get people who have been elected for different things to do a joint thing. I agree that we delete the first one and also be consistent in deleting this one. If you look at the schedules, you will see that within the National Assembly, there is a National Security Committee which includes the intelligence. So, the oversight role is taken care of. However, doing the job as a joint Committee of the National Assembly and the Senate is basically saying that we did not need the Senate because we might as well do things together. Therefore, let us make the two very distinct. Let us not mix them unless there is an issue that requires solution by the two Houses because it is cross-cutting and there is a provision for that even within the Constitution. So, let us delete this without necessarily spending more time on it. We deleted the first one. Let us be consistent.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Since you deleted the word relating to the Senate, it follows logically that we must also delete the one for the National Assembly to enable the two Houses to have different committees on intelligence. I thought that was the basis upon which hon. Keynan convinced us and if they are all joint, it will be on an ad hoc basis. It will not be forced into a marriage they do not want. I thought that was the basis. If we delete the first one, then logically this one must also be deleted. In fact, what we should now be looking at are the amendments to the Schedule.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, the hon. Keynan has got a great foresight as regards the motion of security and as far as intelligence is concerned. I totally agree that if we delete the Senate, then it follows quite logically that we delete this so that we can think properly. I want to request hon. Ethuro, that if you are going to the Senate, then move with this to the Senate because this is really what you are trying to do. So, we better have the country at heart and not personal interests.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir. Actually what is at play here is the more reason why this should be rebelled. The people who are defending this are in the Government and I think they will continue being in the Government. I am actually asking for it to be retained at the National Assembly Standing Orders and not at the Senate. So, the hon. Member for Kajiado Central is misleading the House that we are taking things to the Senate when I am actually trying to retain this particular one in the National Assembly. However, I want to submit that it is not just enough to say that because we deleted in the Senate, then we cannot retain it in the National Assembly. In
Hon. Ethuro, there is something that you are not quite clear about. If you look at the proposed Standing Orders, paragraph 215, the heading of that paragraph is “Joint Committee on Intelligence”. So, now when you say that you are leaving it for the National Assembly alone and yet it is a designated joint committee, it defeats your argument. Does it not?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, you are right. I was just saying that for the purpose of the argument. I was explaining to his argument but actually that is my intention; that it means joint. That is my intention all along and I want to see it that way. It is a position I will take and I am prepared to live with the consequences.
Fair enough! Now, I will put the question that the paragraph numbered 215 in the Standing Orders be deleted.
Hon. Keynan, I have proposed the question. So, do you have a contribution and amendments? Proceed, you have the Floor I believe.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, again this is to have this section consistent with the two amendments that we have carried out. I beg to move:- THAT the Second Schedule of the Draft Standing Orders of the National Assembly be amended by deleting Committee “A” that is the Committee on National Security and the subject assigned to it and substitute therefor the following new Committees and subjects Committee “A” is Defence and Foreign Relations which will deal with defence, intelligence, foreign relations and other international issues; again delete Committee “B” and subject assigned to it and substitute therefor the Committee on Administration and National Security; it will deal with the issue of national security, police and homeland
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, our Standing Orders and the rules of justice demand fair play. I would have loved to get a copy of the proposed amendments. Two, you know our rules were tabled on 19th December, to give everybody an opportunity to look at these things. When you look at the proposal to delete committees “A”, “B” and “E”--- In the initial argument when we were deleting, there were proposals that he was going to introduce separate Committees on intelligence in both Houses. I would like to see the text of the amendments because they were supposed to be circulated; two, you can determine that his initial assertions when deleting have been sustained or otherwise.
I have worked under the impression that this particular amendment was circulated. In fact, it was approved yesterday. So, it must have been circulated. We will let you have sight of it. In the meantime, we will take contributions from other Members who are interested.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the initial amendment that we did was for us to have distinct committees of both Houses. That was informed by the fact that we have distinct constitutional functions as the two Houses. But I have a big problem deleting these Committees. Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, the argument here is that we should do things as we have done them in the past. We are living under a new dispensation. These Committees are necessary. I do not think there is anything wrong with us having national security committee separate from that one of defence. As it is, some of these Committees are being deleted and joined together; hon. Keynan is proposing that we have a National Security Committee and Defence as one.
Order, hon. Keynan! The Member for North Horr has the Floor and is protected.
Mr. Chairman, Sir, in that regard, I think these Committees should remain as they are and should not be related. With those remarks, I oppose the amendment.
Yes, Member for Kipipiri.
Mr. Chairman, Sir, I know that I supported. I could see the earlier logic of hon. Keynan but, coming to the Schedule, I can see confusion between wanting to maintain the status quo and wanting to go forward. The current situation, where we have the Security and Foreign Affairs Committee as one is totally different from the new constitutional dispensation. All the security organs have now been classified as one within the Constitution. That includes the intelligence service, the national police and defence forces. It is put very clearly within the Constitution what constitutes the national security organs. Mixing the national security organs with foreign affairs matters, which include trade matters, among others, is going a bit too far. So, I actually support and I want to applaud the Committee that looked at this matter and put these organs in the Second Schedule, including defence, intelligence and the police service, exactly as they are in our Constitution.
Yes, Member for Wajir West.
Mr. Chairman, Sir, hon. Ethuro has actually attempted to cloud the minds of many hon. Members. I want you to get what I am trying to propose. I think hon. Chachu, hon. Kimunya and hon. Ethuro should listen. If you look at the Second Schedule, as it is, you will see that Committee “A” is National Security. Its subject matter is national security, including defence, intelligence and police services. Committee “B” is Home Affairs, whose functions include public administration, public service, prison service, immigration and management of national resources, disaster, et cetera . You then go up to Committee “E”, which is Foreign Affairs. Mr. Chairman, Sir, I want to say Foreign Affairs is a security Ministry everywhere in the world. Secondly, I know that if we put together defence, intelligence and police, we will have interfered with the clear functions of the specific units. For example, putting Kenya Defence Forces nowhere. I have not seen any democratic jurisdiction where police and defence forces have been put together. It does not happen in any jurisdiction. What I am trying to propose is this---
Order, hon. Keynan! Please, address the House.
Mr. Deputy Chairman,Sir, I am not deleting any committee. I am trying to merge defence and foreign relations and the subject matter will be defence, intelligence, foreign affairs and diplomacy. I will merge also home affairs with national security. So, there will be a committee called “administration and national security” that will deal with home affairs. I hope Mr. Chachu is getting this. So, in essence, what we are trying to say is if you look at the key function of intelligence, it is both defence and also homeland. But most likely it is defence. If you look at the Kenya Defence Forces, it is also defence. That is why even in the cluster of Ministries, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is clustered with those Ministries. I am sure I have dealt with them. We have overseen them over the last few years. We know where they are; we know where they get their budget; we know how they are considered.
Order. Mr. Keynan! Address the House. Do not be distracted by the Member for Yatta, or even the Member for Turkana Central for that matter.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, for officially allowing me to distract him and not informally. I have just seen the proposals brought by the Chairman of the Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations. I could not agree more with Mr. Kimunya. I wish to apologize to him for some thoughts I had entertained, and for being a State apologist but I have appreciated him. First, we are trying to realign these to the constitutional requirements. We are alive to the fact that the number of Ministries will also be reduced. The other consideration is that this will be a large House. So, if you amalgamate these committees into one, then that particular committee cannot transact the business that you have given it in terms of providing oversight of the line Ministries and the constitutional obligations. So, I really want to plead with Mr. Keynan and the rest of the membership that I have actually clarified and not clouded any minds. I am glad that the hon. Member for Kipiriri can confirm that. I now appreciate that at least on this one, we have intelligence which is not the one of the Senate. We can live with it; Maj-Gen. Nkaisserry knows that we are leaving it to the National Assembly. But for Home Affairs, the proposal is that we put it under Administration and National Security. This is not even the Constitution he is running away from. He is still living in the past of a Provincial Administration where the District Commissioner (DC) was an administrator as well as the chairman of the security committee. I want my good friend to smell the new Constitution that has separated these functions and really persuade him that we have taken into consideration all the things he is saying. We have already acceded, against my good counsel, on the Joint Committees. Surely, he should leave us with these ones.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I want to support the view of hon. Keynan. The first deletion that we did was on the issue of functionality. But I think what hon. Keynan is trying to bring about is the relationship between those particular departments. I think it makes sense that you separate the police from the Defence Forces. You can change the name but in terms of functionality, I think that he has a reason to suggest those kinds of amendments.
Hon. Members, the balance of those who are interested, please, just do one minute each.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I think that we must learn from the experience of hon. Keynan. He has been in charge of this Committee and, therefore, knows what he is talking about. To my friend, hon. Ethuro, you have done a wonderful job in coming up with these Rules. What we are trying to do is to improve them. So, please, take any proposed amendments in that spirit. We are not saying that they are bad. We are improving them. Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, what hon. Keynan is proposing is what superpowers like America have done. Defence and Foreign Affairs are together because they complement each other. We want to be a superpower very soon. So, I think he is right.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I think that he has put it in a very good way. But having served as a Member of this Committee and also known the work of the other Committee, it will be almost impossible for that Committee to work if we combined both Internal (the police) and also Defence. Hon. Members need to remember that every day we have about five Questions coming to the House. This is one of the busiest Committees. Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, for efficiency, I support my Chair’s amendment.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I still have a problem agreeing to this amendment. I think that Defence is the cornerstone of National Security and should remain there. Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I oppose.
Hon. Members, that brings us to the end of Draft Standing Orders for the National Assembly. We will now very quickly move on to the Joint Rules.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Rule 10(3b) be deleted.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Rule 12 be deleted. Again, this is to harmonize it with what we have done on the Standing Orders for the Senate and the National Assembly by deleting the whole of Rule 12.
Hon. Members, we have now concluded the three sets of Draft Standing Orders and Rules, respectively and I will invite Mr. Ethuro, on behalf of the Committee, to move the next Motion.
Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move that the Committee doth report to the House its consideration of the proposed Standing Orders of the Senate and the National Assembly and the Joint Rules and its approval thereof with amendments.
Hon. Members, I invite the Leader of Government Business to move.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Committee of the Whole House has considered the Report of the Procedure and House Rules Committee on the proposed Standing Orders for the Senate and National Assembly and Joint Rules and approved the same with amendments.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.
Hon. Members, that then concludes the matter with respect to adoption of the Standing Orders for the National Assembly, the Senate and the Joint Rules. We will now take the next Order. Hon. Midiwo, do you want to rise on a point of order before we take Order No.18?
Not just yet, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am sorry.
Okay. Call the next Order!
The Chair of the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade!
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
What is your point of order?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am sorry that the Order Paper that I have talks about Order No.17. I think I am a bit mixed up with the Order Papers. But the issue I need to raise before you is that the business appearing on Order No.18 as was called is one which is highly controversial. We had been directed in the House Business Committee to meet as the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade when we raised the issues. This Report found its way into this House in a way that was not agreed by the Committee. We would like to request that because the contents of this Report have divided our Committee and because it is our last day, I would like to request that the
Very well, Mr. Midiwo. I have heard you except that the point at which you have raised that matter after Order No.18 has been called out does not give me that option to actually give any directions. If you had raised it before the Order was called, that would be different but as it is, the House is now seized of Order No.18 and the Standing Orders do not confer that discretion on me. They do not, really. That is why I asked you if you want to raise a point of order before Order No.18 was called and you said “not yet”.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Order Paper that I have, it is Order No.17. That is not my mistake. The Order Paper that I am holding in my hand is showing Order No.17. That is why I was rising and when the clerk called Order No.18, I was taken aback. It is not inadvertently. It is because I am holding another Order Paper which is also the property of the House which shows that business as Order No.17.
Hon Member for Gem, I would want the Deputy Leader of Government Business to make some response with regard to that or even the Leader of Government Business for that matter before I make any further directions. The Leader of Government Business wants the Deputy Leader of Government Business to make that response and I will give directions.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is just to clarify that we have had three Order Papers for today; there was the original, the Supplementary Order Paper and Supplementary No.2. I think an announcement was made at every stage when the Order Paper moved. So, it may be that Mr. Midiwo was using the Supplementary Order Paper when we had already moved to Supplementary Order No.2. I just wanted to clarify for the record that indeed that the orders have been called in accordance with the Order Paper that is now in use.
Order, hon. Members! I appreciate the concerns by the hon. Member for Gem but I am afraid, like I have alluded to, my hands as the Speaker are tied because after this Order has been called out, then the House is seized of it and interruption by the Speaker would be in judicial exercise of discretion; in fact discretion that I do not have. More so, I guided the House at every moment as we moved from one Order Paper to the other. Members would recollect and it is actually recorded in the HANSARD that we started with the original Order Paper. As we finished Order No.7, I directed the House that we were from that point guided by the Supplementary Order Paper. As we completed the Procedural Motions, I guided the House that we were guided by Supplementary Order No.2. It is possible that the hon. Member for Gem was not in the House and perhaps did not follow proceedings at those points for which we cannot fault you, hon. Member for Gem. Now that that has transpired, it is actually water under the bridge but you can be guided as follows: Now that the House is seized of the Motion at Order No.18, you will have to hold your horse until the Chairman of the Committee on
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, this House adopts the Report on the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade on Cooper Motor Corporation (CMC) (Holdings) laid on the Table of the House on Thursday, 13th September, 2012. This matter was first brought to the House through a Question which hon. Dr. Khalwale asked. The Question was relating to the suspension of shares of the CMC at the Nairobi Securities Exchange. As that matter was being prosecuted, the issue of the work permit of the Chief Executive Officer who had just been hired by the CMC came into play. The Question had been directed to the Minister for Finance at the time. As he was responding to that Question, the Minister for Finance said that the matter relating to work permits did not fall within his docket and if hon. Dr. Khalwale wanted to prosecute the matter further, he should direct the Question to the Minister of State for Immigration and Registration of Persons. However, the issue of the suspension of shares still remained. The Minister tried to tell the House – you can get this from the HANSARD – the matter had been seized off by the Capital Markets Authority (CMA). He said that if the CMA was dealing with the matter, it was not necessary for the Committee of Parliament responsible to deal with it. In fact, he used the words; “it would be of no consequence” or something to that effect. However, as the contributions went on in Parliament, other Members of Parliament had a different view and believed that this matter should go to the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade which was the relevant Committee. Since there was nothing stopping any Committee of Parliament from dealing with any matter that they deem fit, the Committee decided to take up the matter because it had very far reaching consequences in terms of the many thousands of small shareholders who owned shares in the CMC and whose shares had been suspended. Therefore, we were saying that if this state of affairs continued, the small shareholders would end up with nothing because they had sunk all their savings into the shares. Therefore, we took it upon ourselves to investigate the matter and come to certain recommendations which we would then bring to this House. It has taken a long time for that to happen. However, what did we do? We decided that we would call many witnesses starting with the CMA because it is the regulatory body that deals with all publicly listed companies on the Nairobi Securities Exchange. The CMA appeared before us, not once, but three times. The impression they gave us as soon as they appeared before us was that the matter was under investigation and that it was very complicated because the CMC Board of Directors had been split right in the middle. There were series of controversies. There were a lot of accusations and counter accusations with one faction of the Board taking a different line and the other taking another line. Therefore, it was very difficult for the CMA to resolve the matter.
Order, hon. Okemo! There is a point of order by hon. M’Mithiaru.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, with due respect to my Chairman, yes, we met as a Committee. We requested him to come and meet you and then come back to us, so that we could discuss the Report because many issues had emerged. If I may mention one of them is that it has actually taken us almost two years to come up with this Report. There were so many issues that were coming up, including going to court and then the CMA, who were the regulator of that industry, even taking some disciplinary action on somebody. Now here we are, trying to engage in boardroom wars, as Parliament, as indicated to this House. So, the Chair of the Committee did not come to tell us what you actually agreed.
Yes, hon. Okemo.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is now my word against that of hon. M’Mithiaru but I know very well that they asked me to see you in your office, which I did. I think you can confirm that. I told you about the problems we were having about how to deal with the Report because it was already the property of the House. Originally, the Members of my Committee were demanding that we withdraw the Report and I said that was difficult. I suggested that if there were amendments, we debate them on the Floor of the House. So, there was a difference of opinion between one set of Members of the Committee and another set of Members of the Committee. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the main thing is that I believe, as I stand here; that if the Members of the Committee are in disagreement with the Report, this is now the perfect opportunity for them to challenge the various recommendations in the Report. I am sure that if they convince the hon. Members of the House, they will vote in a particular way. It is too late in the day to begin talking about withdrawing a Report which is already on the Floor of the House. I do not think we will disagree if they have valid points they feel should be tackled; that are incorporated in the Report. They are free to do so, because it is now a Report of the House. So, even if there are Members of the Committee who want to disagree with it, they should give justification for disagreeing with specific aspects of the Report. For me, I know that all the recommendations that are contained in the Report are either from the evidence that we received from the witnesses or they were directly extracted from the forensic audit report. With those remarks, I beg to move and ask Prof. Kaloki to second.
Yes, hon. Kaloki.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank you for the opportunity to rise and second the Report of the Committee. The Committee considered the Cooper Motors Corporation and deliberated on various issues pertaining to matters contained in this particular Report. We came up with observations and recommendations, which are contained in the Report. Therefore, I do not want to belabour that point. The Committee Chairman explained the issues pertaining to this Report in details. The Committee Chairman did explain and went into details pertaining to this report.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise under Standing Order No.25(1) to move that the debate be now adjourned.
Hon. Member for Gem, you have to give your reasons under Standing Order No. 25. Note that you also have to be seconded. After that, I will propose the question, and if we get there, I will put the question. If you look at Standing Order No.25, I can only put the Question forthwith for reasons given there.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the reason I moved that the debate on this particular Motion be adjourned is that this is supposed to be a parliamentary committee report. What is happening has more than meets the eye. I say that because the Chair of the House Business Committee convened a meeting where we all sat and agreed that the chair would consult the Speaker, call a meeting of the Committee and then we all agree on the way forward. Mr. Speaker, Sir, all the Chair has done is to consult you and it may be true, because you said that he consulted you but he never came back to the Committee. He has never, as directed by the House Business Committee, come back to this Committee to say this was the result of my meeting with the Speaker. It is an issue of the integrity of the Committee. This is important. Since we sat, it has been a couple of months, and that Chair had the time. The Chair has been, quite frankly avoiding, this meeting. So, I want to ask you to adjourn this debate until such a time that the Committee will sit and agree on a few things. There are processes; there are many issues which I do not think at this point, it is good to bring on the Floor of this House. This is a very weighty Report. I want to ask Mr. M’Mithiaru to second.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to second the proposal by Mr. Midiwo. It is not our practice to come here and oppose our own report on the Floor of the House, but it is an issue we really wanted to discuss in-house and then agree before we come to the Floor of the House. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the report that we relied on heavily, which my chairman alluded to earlier, was a forensic report and recommendations which we did. After we did that, other things happened and rendered the report of the forensic audit irrelevant. One of the them, which also the Chair spoke about, is that the Minister of State for Immigration and Registration of Persons said that he had cancelled the permit for one Bill Lay; we all agreed on that and we were happy. Later on, he went on to give that same person the permit and the person is already working. The other issue was that after the CMA met us as the regulator of all companies quoted on the Nairobi Stock Exchange; they went ahead and took disciplinary action against the board members. One of the board members went to court. The whole reason of bringing this report to Parliament, which was done in a hurry, was for Parliament to direct that a board member should be reinstated. Those are the issues. They are weighty and really it will not be good to expose Parliament to ridicule. That is why we are saying we should go back home and try to ensure that we iron out these issues.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, from the outset, let me declare my interest in this matter. I have the specific interest that if I had not brought up this matter before this House, we would not be here this evening.
Order, Member for Ikolomani! I do not to rush you. I am not even inclined to do so, but note that we only have six minutes before we get to the end of our time today. I really will want to dispose of this matter one way or the other. So, contribute bearing that in mind.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the way this matter has progressed can very easily challenge the respect that we, as Members of Parliament, either in our individual capacity or collectively, have for the respect of the institution of Parliament. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this matter has dragged up to and including what you witnessed in the House Business Committee when I was pushing. My question was: Why is it that a matter which has already been tabled before the House is finding it difficult to come on the Floor? Then, as hon. Midiwo has said correctly, you said that you did not want sideshows if the Committee could go and sort itself out. Mr. Speaker, Sir, allow me to appeal to the hon. Members, because of what eventually has happened to Cooper Motors Corporations. The consequences have been adverse and serious. I would appeal that you allow this matter to be ventilated and go one way or the other, so that we can put it to rest. The company is no longer trading its shares. The banks have moved on to the company; the franchise of Land Rover and Ford has been withdrawn. So, the company is actually becoming a shell. I beg that you allow us to debate. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I oppose.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I support that the Motion be adjourned. It is very important for us to also realize that the rich shareholders, who are the directors, are moving to court so that they can arm-twist the poor shareholders. They want to use Parliament as a rubberstamp. Mr. Speaker, Sir, let us adjourn this Motion and it will be dealt with in the next Parliament.
Order, hon. Members! Looking at the clock and seeing where we are, I have to cut that debate short. We have heard both sides of the divide in terms of for and against. So, I will put the question.
Hon. Members, we still have one minute. It is possible that we can take the next business within that one minute.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am just noticing the issue of quorum.
Order, hon. Members! We cannot ring the Bell because it is actually time to adjourn.
Hon. Members, that brings us to the end of business today. The House stands adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday 10th January, 2013, at 2.30 p.m. The House rose at 12.00 a.m.