Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Regional Development Authorities the following Question by Private Notice.

(a) What is the name, qualifications and the procedure that the Minister used in the recruitment of the current Managing Director of Tana and Athi Rivers Development Authority (TARDA)? (b) Was due diligence carried out in establishing his qualifications and suitability for the job and was the appointment in conformity with the Government regulations or guidelines regarding the appointment of such officers? (c) Could the Minister confirm that the Managing Director is the subject of corruption-related investigations arising from his conduct during his tenure in the diplomatic service?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, first, I want to apologize for not being here on Thursday last week. I was in a Cabinet Meeting which took too long. We were not allowed to leave until we finished. My Assistant Minister was also away on official duty and he was not able to be here to answer this Question.

Proceed and answer the Question.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I had answered this Question last time. What remained unanswered were some of the supplementary questions that came up. I do not know whether you want me to repeat the same answer. That is because there were some supplementary questions that were not answered.

You answer the questions that you were required to answer. There are some supplementary issues that came up. That is what you are required to do.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have perused through some of the documents that were produced in the House and, after looking at them, it is clear that, that thing happened nearly 15 and 20 years ago. Even the documents that were produced here were just in bits and pieces. They do not really follow each other. However, when Mr. Agoye was recalled from Paris, he was not even given time to hand over. He was told to come back immediately. After the audit, he was asked to explain about the shortfall, which he did. I have a copy of the letter that was written to him, asking him to explain about the shortfall. I am ready to lay it on the Table. Secondly, the figures had been there before. By the time he joined the foreign mission, the figures were there. Those days, the Missions used to be told that they will get money from the Ministry. That money would delay even after it had been entered into the books. They would use bank overdrafts. By the time the money was sent, in some cases, the dollar would have gone up. That is the time the dollar kept on fluctuating every now and then. That is why the cash book and the bank statements, sometimes, used to differ. Immediately Mr. Agoye took office, he wrote to the Financial Controller and the figures could not tally. The Financial Controller authorized him to try and reconcile those books.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister is trying to dwell on irrelevancies. One of the documents that I tabled before this House, and which he sought the indulgence of the Speaker to go and scrutinize, was a police investigation report that was commissioned by the Director of the Criminal Investigation Department (CID). The Chief Investigator was a Superintendent of Police, Mr. Chege Gathogo. The Office of the Controller and Auditor-General had done an audit of the financial situation at the Embassy and after its report, the police were asked to investigate with a view to having Mr. Agoye prosecuted. The police report recommended that Mr. Agoye should be arrested and prosecuted and the matter was handed over to the Attorney-General. In my view, the Minister should tell us whether he went through the report and confirmed that the papers were authentic, before we go to the next question.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is the point I was coming to. There was no evidence. He was asked to explain and he did so. That is why he was not prosecuted.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, last time, the Minister said that he was not aware. Is he confirming that the officer in question had actually been investigated for fraud and also for failing to pay his debts abroad, which are contrary to the Public Officers Ethics Act? If, indeed, the Minister is confirming that the documents are authentic, then he must give us cogent documentary evidence that, that officer was cleared? It cannot be a simple statement from the bar!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, obviously, I was not aware and that is why I wanted to peruse through the documents. It is very clear. If there is no evidence, how can you be taken to court? The fact that one is investigated does not mean that he must be taken to court. So, the investigation was done and the evidence was not enough to warrant his prosecution. That is why Mr. Agoye was not prosecuted.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Minister to avoid the question? I asked him whether the documents that were tabled in the House, which he disparaged during the last time, were authentic. If they were, the audit clearly shows that the officer owed Kshs3 million, which he is alleged to have embezzled. Has he repaid the money to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs? Secondly, has he paid his debts in France?

Order, hon. Karua! You stood on a point of order. So, what is your point of order?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, is the Minister in order to fail to answer the question which is, clearly, whether those documents are authentic and, therefore, the officer owed the money? If the officer has paid the money, where is the written confirmation?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, after the audit report, the officer was asked to explain, and he explained. There is a letter here from the then Financial Controller in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs which confirms that the books were like that by the time Mr. Agoye was posted to Paris. He gave proper explanations and after that, the matter was laid to rest.

Order, Mr. Gumo! You are only required to respond to the issues that arose as a result of the answer that you gave. You are not supposed to respond to the entire Question afresh.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is a very important Question, especially when people of questionable integrity and character are appointed to head parastatals. The Minister is claiming that the Ministry of Finance cleared that gentleman. Could he undertake to bring to the House evidence to show that the Ministry cleared the gentleman of financial impropriety that he committed during his tenure as a Finance Attaché’ at the Kenyan Embassy in France?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, yes! That is why he was not prosecuted. He was cleared. After he resigned from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, he has been working in several other places. He was cleared.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am asking for a letter of clearance!

Order, Mr. Linturi! I gave you an opportunity to ask the last question, which you did!

Next Question by Mr. Chanzu!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security the following Question by Private Notice.

(a) What informed the recent appointment of Provincial Commissioners and Senior Deputy Provincial Commissioners?

(b) Could the Minister provide brief resumes of each of the appointees?

(c) Were merit, length of service and regional balance taken into account in the respective appointments?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to begin by apologising for having not answered this Question on Thursday last week. I was called to my constituency rather urgently on food security and other security matters.

Just go ahead and answer the Question.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Assistant Minister has just done what the Speaker directed in his ruling that he should explain why he was not here to answer the Question. However, the ruling the Speaker made was that the substantive Minister should come and answer the Question. That is the ruling that was made by the Chair and it is in the HANSARD!

But he is an Assistant Minister!

You are not the Speaker! I am saying what the Speaker said!

Order, Mr. Chanzu! You will not engage hon. Members! Answer the Question, Mr. Lesrima!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, under the Constitution of Kenya, I am a Minister.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, those were the outstanding issues. I will not have time to go through the document in order to ask supplementary questions since he has tabled it now.

The Standing Orders provides that you look at the document laid on the Table and if you are not satisfied you know exactly what to do at a future date. You are not barred from---

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, could I be given time to look at the document?

The document has been tabled and you are entitled to look at it. If you are not satisfied with it, you have other means of bringing the issue before the House.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Lands the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Could the Minister confirm that the lease agreement for the International Casino Complex Plot (LR.No.209/7437) is about to expire? (b) Could he also state the recipient of the grant of lease for the property from the Government and indicate the terms of the lease? (c) How much money has the Government collected as land rent for the property from 1994 to date?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was ready to answer this Question when it was placed on the Order Paper last time. However, I was told by the Clerk’s Office that an issue had been raised that this matter was sub judice . I was not aware that the Question was to be asked today. I am prepared to answer the Question, but in view of the confusion, could we have it put on the Order Paper next week? I have talked to Dr. Khalwale about this.

Dr. Khalwale, what do you have to say to that?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have no objection, in view of the fact that hundreds of millions of shillings have been lost in the process.

That is okay!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Special Programmes the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Could the Minister confirm that in the current EMOP/PRRO starting May, 2009, the larger Turkana has been allocated lower relief food supply as a result of the erroneous population figures? (b) Could the Minister table the population figures for the old Turkana District in 2008, 1999, 1998, 1979, 1969, respectively, and indicate the population growth rate? (c) Could the Minister table the number of relief beneficiaries vis-Ă -vis general population figures for each location for Turkana Central, Turkana North and Turkana South districts per EMOP since 1999 census? (d) When is the Minister going to issue the correct famine relief beneficiary figures as per the correct population as estimated by the Kenya National Bureau of Statistics as at May, 2009?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg your indulgence for more time because the officer concerned has not given me all the details that I required. Could I be given more time?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister has indicated that to me and it is okay. The Question is wide.

Have you agreed on when the Minister should answer the Question?

We agreed that she will answer the Question on Thursday.

Dr. Shaban, you will answer the Question on Thursday in the afternoon.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is fine.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security the following Question by Private Notice. (a) What are the circumstances under which police officers under the command of the Nakuru OCPD shot to death Messrs. Aden Abshir, Mohammed Iman Kassim and Sammy Kiyetch on the night of 27th July, 2009 at Eldama Ravine/Mogotio Junction?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg the indulgence of the Chair to allow me to answer this Question after two weeks. I have consulted with the Questioner and we have agreed that after indepth investigations I will satisfactorily answer this Question after two weeks from the date of today.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I consulted with the Assistant Minister and we agreed that he be given more time.

The Question will be on the Order Paper in two weeks time!

asked the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance:- (a) what became of the country’s entitlement in the defunct East African Community (EAC) as well as the terminal dues of the Kenyan employees in the community; (b) how much the British Government paid as terminal benefits for Kenyans working for the defunct community; (c) the recipients, amount paid and dates of payment to all ex-staff of the Corporations of the defunct EAC among them, E.A Cargo Handling Services; E. A. External Communications; E.A. General Funds Services; E.A. Customs; E.A. Railways; E.A. Airways; E.A. Harbour; E.A. Post & Telecommunications; and, (d) what medium was used to communicate to all the former employees or their beneficiaries the payment of their terminal dues.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not mind the Question being deferred until tomorrow. However, this Question has been postponed several times. I hope it will not be postponed tomorrow.

Prof. Saitoti, what time should the Question be answered tomorrow?

Is that okay, Mr. Yakub?

It is okay, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. We do not know what is happening with the Ministry of Finance. This is the third week from the time we re-opened and the Ministry of Finance has not been responding to any Question.

Since Mr. Yakub has no objection, the Chair will oblige him and wait until tomorrow. You can raise that issue at the appropriate time.

asked the Minister for Fisheries Development:- (a) if he could indicate what became of the cold house/ice plant project in Faza, Lamu, which was to commence operation in December, 2008, and clarify the stage of the tendering process; and, (b) what plans he has to provide alternative source of power for the cold house considering that the generator at the plant cannot provide sufficient power.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is the third time this Question has been deferred. Could the Minister state whether there is a problem in answering this Question? I have received a copy of the written answer but the Minister is not here to answer the Question. I am not very happy.

Ms. S. Abdalla, Prof. Saitoti has indicated that the Minister is involved in an important conference that is taking place now.

What about the Assistant Minister?

Do you have any objection to the Question being deferred?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do it reluctantly. I am not very happy. I hope the Question will be answered tomorrow.

The Question is deferred until tomorrow in the afternoon!

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Depty Speaker, Sir. I heard the Minister say that the meeting of AGOA is very important and it takes precedence over parliamentary proceedings. Last week, the Chair ruled that parliamentary business takes precedence over any other function. Is the Minister in order to imply that the AGOA Conference is more important than answering Questions in Parliament?

Unfortunately, you have been overtaken by events. That Question has already been deferred.

asked the Minister for Energy:- (a) if he could update the House on the progress of the Ministry’s internal investigations into the Triton Oil Scandal as well as the measures he has taken to ensure that such an incident does not recur; (b) what action he has taken against employees who may have been complicit in the matter; and, (c) how much money the Kenya Pipeline Corporation and/or the Government lost in the scam.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, last week you directed that I table all the criminal and the civil cases pertaining to the Triton saga. I do hereby table the following cases. The Kenya Anti- Corruption Case No.18; Criminal Case No.103/09; Criminal Case No.1150/09 and Criminal Case No. 1151/09. I also submit a report arising from the operation of the Triton account at the Kenya Pipeline Corporation. These are High Court Case No.68 of 2009 - Milimani; High Court Case No.196 of 2009 - Milimani; High Court Case No.19 of 2009 - Milimani; High Court Case No.115 of 2009 - Milimani; High Court Case No.116 of 2009 - Mombasa and High Court No. 20 of 2009.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister confirm that none of those cases has been instituted by the Kenya Pipeline Company (KPC) Limited, that none of them is against Mr. Divani, and that no proceedings to attach the property of Mr. Devani and his co-directors have been instituted so far?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Criminal Case No.1151 is against Messrs. Jagnesh Devani, Kilonzo Julius, Colins Otieno and others. So, it is not true that Mr. Divani is not charged. The KPC Limited has not taken anybody to court. The KPC Limited is defending itself against mistakes done by its staff. So, all the cases have been filed by various parties, and the KPC Limited is a defendant.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, now that I have the list tabled, yes, in the criminal cases, Mr. Devani and Triton are cited, but I want the Assistant Minister to confirm that his co-directors in Triton are not part of this suite.

Secondly, the Assistant Minister has said that the suits are filed by the other companies. In his main answer, he said that the KPC Limited and, therefore the Government and the people of Kenya, are exposed to the tune of Kshs5 billion. Is it a

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have tabled the documents. I need your direction because the idea of tabling the documents on these court cases was for your ruling as to whether we can proceed to discuss this matter.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the Assistant Minister in order to avoid a direct question, which is why the KPC Limited has not attached Mr. Devani’s properties to protect the Government and Kenyans from loss?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Government has not attached Mr. Devani’s properties, because up to now we are not sure we are to blame. We cannot attach the properties. Property that was in our custody, but which belonged to other people, disappeared. This was exactly the mistake of our people. These people are being taken to court. We have to establish whether the quantities being claimed by the other parties that have gone to court are correct or not. So, there is a big process going on. So, it is not prudent to proceed and attach the properties of Mr. Devani.

Next Question!

Order! You know the rules very well. You should catch the Speaker’s eye before the last question is asked. I waited but nobody stood up. So, I gave the hon. Member her rightful opportunity.

Next Question, Mr. Abdirahman Hassan!

on behalf of

, asked the Minister for State for Special Programmes:- (a) whether she could indicate the per-constituency monthly relief food allocations to the greater Wajir District (West, East, South and North) during the months of March to July 2009; (b) how the process of registration and distribution of relief food is done in the areas; and, (c) what steps the Ministry will take to step up the allocations.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.

(a)The Government of Kenya has allocated relief food to non-Emergency Operation Programme (EMOP) beneficiaries in the greater Wajir District during the months of March to July as follows: 3,000 bags of maize, 12,150 50-kilogramme bags of rice,1,940 90-kilogramme bags of beans, 1,200 cartons of vegetable oil and 600 50- kilograme bags of beans.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Wajir South District is the largest constituency and district in the entire greater Wajir District. It is 27,000 square kilometres. I happen to have just come back from the district myself. The food situation is very critical. What exact criteria has the Minister used to give Wajir South only 24,000 beneficiaries when in reality, the number of people who are supposed to benefit from this scheme is three times the number of the people who have benefited? What criteria were used? The district is the largest in terms of size and, perhaps, has the largest population.

Order, Mr. Affey! You have already asked the question. Let the Minister answer.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I actually explained the criterion used. The criterion used is that there is an assessment carried out by a multi- sectoral group, where you have the line Ministries involved, plus the UN agencies and the District Steering Group. That is how they come up with the numbers. The place could be big but apart from being big, it is a matter of assessing the number of people who really require to be given food.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Kisumu Town East, Kisumu Town West, Kisumu Rural and Nyando were given 1,000 bags. In these areas, there are three million people. If you divide three million people by 1,000 bags, each person will

Order. What is your question?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, is there a special preference of which areas get maize? What basis did the Government use to send 1,000 bags to three constituencies? What was the logic?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, first of all, I do not agree relief food is being shared among the three constituencies as alleged by the hon. Member. We usually send the food to the District Commissioner for distribution. This programme was never meant for the whole country. It was meant for arid and semi-arid areas. At the general food distribution, we have had to contend with the fact that most of the areas now are suffering and we have to share out the little that we have.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Ndaragwa Constituency has not had rain for the last 10 months now. Last week we lost an old lady because of hunger. The Minister has told us that the assessment is done on a regular basis. We have 65,000 people facing starvation in Ndaragwa. When will she do the assessment in my constituency?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would prefer that the hon. Member file a substantive question so that I can give a reply specifically on his area.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Order, Mr. Kioni. It is only fair that if you have a question relating to Ndaragwa Constituency, you direct it to her and she will answer it. What is your point of order?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, is the Minister in order to wish away a question that relates to hunger? We are talking of people who are starving and they are now dying? She said that---

Order, Mr. Kioni. She is not wishing away the question. She has said that that is a separate question and, indeed, it is. You are fully entitled to direct a question to her relating to Ndaragwa Constituency.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to ask the Minister what happened to the Government of Kenya (GoK) component of relief food to these districts? She has talked about the food from the World Food Programme. What about the GoK component?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, part “a” of my answer was on the Government of Kenya general food distribution. I do not mind repeating it. As I said, from March to July, for the greater Wajir, that is west, east, south and north, we have so far distributed 3,000 bags of maize, 12,150 bags of rice, 1,940 bags of 90 kilogramme bags of maize or beans, 1,200 cartons of vegetable oil and 600 of 50 kilogramme bags of beans in the general food distribution.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, the issue of food is very sensitive, especially now that the country is facing hunger. I have heard the Minister say that the food is distributed through some relief committees. There have been cases where District Commissioners (DCs) have been reported to have stolen relief food. How are these committees put in place and who appoints their membership?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the sub-location committees are actually appointed by the wananchi in barazas. It is wananchi who decide the membership of those committees.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the food situation in the country is bad as has been reported in this House by none other than the Prime Minister. Why did this Ministry and the Government have to wait for this report to be generated from the ground when the situation is already bad as confirmed by the Prime Minister and the Minister herself in this House?

Secondly, in the case of Wajir South, the nominated lead agency there is the Kenya Red Cross. Could she confirm that the Ministry is using the Kenya Red Cross to do the distribution of relief food in Wajir South District?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I said clearly that there are two ways that we distribute food. There is the general food distribution and the EMOP Programme. The EMOP Programme is where we require the lead agency. We do not wait for the assessment to be carried out for us to give out food. It has been an ongoing thing. We have given out food every month to all the needy Kenyans.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Order, Mr. Affey! Mr. Nyamai, I will have to defer your Question until tomorrow afternoon because there are very critical Ministerial Statements that are coming up now. I will allow the rest of the time that we have for Question Time to Ministerial Statements.

Next Order!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, two weeks ago, the MP for Ikolomani asked me to make the report on the Pyramid Scheme Task Force available to Parliament. At the time, I explained it was difficult for me to do so although I had released it to Kenyans; since then I had been served with a court order. Therefore, I could not table it here. I was scared of presenting it and being arrested. However, last week, the Speaker gave direction that I could do it. I am ready to present the document now. Between 2006 and 2007, many Kenyans lost their money through such schemes. Most of those schemes collapsed while owing Kenyans billions of shillings. Many complaints were filed in many Government departments, including our Ministry of Co- operative Development and Marketing. Most of those schemes started collapsing quickly.

Dr. Khalwale, do you want to seek any clarifications? Hon. Members, I would like to get some indications on the people who may be interested in seeking clarifications on this matter so that I can determine how many I will allow. It seems it is only Dr. Khalwale, please, go ahead!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, when this matter went to the Ministry, it was as a result of a petition, in this House, by victims of pyramid schemes. I have with me a copy of that petition. Having had access to that Report, because the Minister had made it public before laying it on the Table of the House, I am afraid that I doubt the efficiency and general commitment by the Minister and his team to make sure they come to the bottom of this issue. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, could the Minister clarify why in the copy that I have, there are 21,000 Kenyans. They have indicated their names, identify card numbers, and the pyramid scheme to which they paid and how much they paid. Could the Minister clarify to the House why the Report that has been tabled has a total loss of Kshs34 billion and yet in the Task Force Report he is only reporting Kshs8 billion. Secondly, in the Report, the Minister only has a mere 12 pyramid schemes. He has deliberately left out many pyramid schemes possibly because they were connected to high ranking businessmen in this country and politicians, including Members of Parliament, Cabinet Ministers and former Cabinet Ministers. Could he clarify that? Thirdly, ---

Mr. Minister, please, proceed!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have four clarifications.

No! You can seek a maximum of three clarifications. That is our tradition.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I seek your indulgence. I am the only one seeking clarifations.

Go on!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the petition by victims of pyramid schemes, we requested the Minister that they lift the freeze on the funds that were salvaged so that the people, who are known, could be given access to these funds. Could the Minister clarify if he is going to lift the freeze? At the CBK, there are billions of shillings. I would also like the Minister to clarify why arms of the Government and departments deliberately refused to cooperate with him. I mean the provincial administration which used to give security to promoters of pyramid schemes when collecting money, the CBK which sat there as people were fleeced by these fellows and the National Security Intelligence Service (NSIS) and the Criminal Investigations Department (CID) that completely refused to appear before his task force. Finally, could the Minister categorically state to Kenyans what action he is going to take against the perpetrators of this heinous crime given that a precedent has already been set? In the United States of America (USA), Mr. Bernard Madoff, who did a similar thing, ended up being jailed for 150 years.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am aware of the petition that the hon. Member

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. It is not fair for the Minister to mislead this House and the Republic about the amount. I have looked at the bigger book which is an annexure to his Report. It is attempting to show the details of what they left out in the summary. In that annexure, they do not capture even half of the petitioners who are here.

Order, Dr. Khalwale! I understood the Minister to be saying that there is an independent inquiry relating to that petition. Is that not what you said Mr. Minister?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was very satisfied with the initiative of the private people. So, I see the Report that was done by Nyenze Task Force and the other one as complementary. As our people proceeded, it became clear that there was need for further investigations which that report would be part of. That is why we then had to open our own register using our offices. In the four week period or so, we recorded Kshs8.2 billion. We know many people were afraid or were not sure, but now they are coming forward now that they have realized we are serious. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, 270 pyramid schemes were noted by my commission. That is contained in the thick annex which I have just produced. I am sorry, that is what hon. Members have not seen. There is thicker annex which shows 270 pyramid schemes identified during that period. Out of these, 17 converted to SACCOs at the last minute. The Task Force was not able to get confirmation from the CBK about the frozen amount. The Report recommends that CBK makes that information public. This is because the Task Force was not able to extract that information from the CBK. As we went round the country the provincial administration helped us in organizing meetings and providing security. Yes, there were accusations that in the earlier stage, some officers of provincial administration had been involved in hosting meetings where these ideas were being sold. However, during the tour, the provincial administration co-operated fully in providing security and helping us arrange these meetings. It is for that reason that some information was not availed to the Task Force. We have proposed that further investigation be done. What needs to be done is clearly marked, because my Ministry is only in charge of co-operatives. There is a limit to what I can do. However, it is necessary for me to bring it to public attention because it has become a crisis. Therefore, more work should be done by the Central Bank of Kenya (CBK), the Criminal Investigations Department (CID) and this Parliament because this is a very important matter. That is what I said in my Statement which I issued earlier on. A small and simple Ministry like the one I head has a limit to what it can do on its own.

Order! Order, Mr. C. Kilonzo! When the Minister issued a Ministerial Statement, I indicated that I wanted to see the level of interest so that I could determine how many clarifications should be sought. Only one Member showed interest. Now, I will hear the Ministerial Statement relating to the national census. Yes, Mr. Minister!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not have a Statement, but---

Who is issuing a Ministerial Statement relating to the national census?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was the one to request the Minister for a Ministerial Statement.

I am sorry for getting you mixed up. Proceed, Mr. Ethuro!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to request for a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Planning, National Development and Vision 2030. Could he confirm that there is hue and cry in the country over the terms of engagement of census officials? Could he also tell us the number of personnel particularly, senior supervisors, supervisors and enumerators who have been engaged? What is the basis for establishing these categories? How much money – because this is where the problem is – will a senior supervisor, supervisor and enumerator be paid? For how long will they work? When will they start work so that this is clear to the country? Finally, what provisions has the Minister made to ensure that the nomadic pastoralists of northern Kenya are counted properly during the national census period? Chances are that they may not subscribe to the normal duration. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, he could respond to that first because I have one more Ministerial Statement to seek.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, could I proceed?

Yes!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I really want to thank the Minister for being on top of this issue and wish him well. However, the Chair has heard him say that the requirement for a senior supervisor is a Masters Degree or being a head of department. When does being a head of department translate to a Masters Degree? But more fundamental, I asked about starting and ending. This needs to be clear for transparency. He has not responded to it. I asked about the measures he has put in place in order to deal with the nomadic pastoralists of northern Kenya. He has also not responded to this question. Finally, in terms of the complaints, the Minister wants to refer them to the accused. The complaints are about the District Census Committees. How can he direct that the complaints be referred to them again? Can he not get another body apart from those committees to address the complaints?

Mr. Minister, before you respond I would like to see whether there are any other clarifications that will be sought in relation to the Ministerial Statement. If they are short, I will take four of them and then the Minister will respond to them. I will start with Mr. Affey!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just want a clarification from the Minister. This period is very difficult for pastoralists in this country. How will they handle the situation of pastoralists who are domiciled in their traditional area of settlement and have moved away?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, regarding the issue of engagement of staff, you heard the Minister put emphasis on serving officers, including civil servants and teachers. Why was it necessary to do that when there are many unemployed but qualified people?

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. My question is on the discrepancies of employing these people. We find that the Chairmen of the District Census Committees imports people from other districts and they are adamant that those people will work there regardless of the complaints. What will the Minister do to ensure that the local people are employed?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, could the Minister give us an assurance that these people will be paid immediately they are through with the exercise. Once the work is done, how long will it take for them to be paid? There have been cases where work is done, but the Government drags its feet in paying.

Mr. Minister, please, be brief. We are eating into Committee of Supply’s time.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. How can a Member of Parliament attend a meeting he is not invited to?

Mrs. Mugo, did you have a Ministerial Statement!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to issue a Ministerial Statement on Wild Polio Situation in the country which was requested by hon. Ethuro.

On 9th February, 2009, a four year old child was suspected to have acute flaccid paralysis in Lopidik Hospital in Turkana North District. Samples taken and analysed at the Kenya Medical Research Institute and also at the regional polio Reference Laboratory in South Africa on 17th February, 2009 were confirmed to be polio. It was the first Kenyan case to be confirmed of wild polio virus type I in Turkana North District. This virus was linked to wild polio virus circulating in Southern Sudan where there has been an ongoing polio outbreak since June, 2008 to date. More cases have since been reported in the wider Turkana region. Today, 17 cases have been confirmed as follows: Turkana North District, six cases, Turkana Central District, one case, Turkana South District, ten cases.

The Disease Outbreak Investigation and Response Team from my Ministry have found that a combination of the following factors is responsible for the re-emergence of wild polio cases in Turkana region:- (i) Population movement between Southern Sudan and Turkana region through the porous border for business and pasture (ii) Low immunity due to the low immunization coverage of about 40 per cent for oral polio vaccine. (iii) Scarcity of clean drinking water due to the prolonged drought resulting in poor hygienic practices. (iv) Poor human waste disposal due low latrine coverage of about 40 per cent. The polio virus enters the body through water or food contaminated by faecal material from an infected person. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, since the first case of polio virus was confirmed in February, 2009 my Ministry has implemented the following measures:-

Order, Mr. Nyagah and Mr. Otieno! You are not permitting the Minister to be heard. Please, lower your level of consultations.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to thank the Minister for that answer. She has confirmed that there were 17 cases of polio. According to WHO standards, one case of polio is serious enough. This is a contagious disease and I am glad that the Minister is talking of 12 high risk districts. It can easily spread to the whole of the country. This is a disease that is supposed to have disappeared from the face of the earth. She has also confirmed that the reasons are low immunity which is 40 per cent, scarcity of drinking water and poor human waste disposal. I would like her to confirm what leadership role her Ministry is going to play to ensure that other Government Ministries that will be able to commit themselves to the provisions of what is lacking

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do agree that it is a serious situation and that is why we have scaled up our surveillance. We are also carrying out extra vaccination campaigns in that region at a very high cost, as the hon. Member has rightly said, with co-operation from the WHO.

Regarding the water situation, my Ministry is always in consultation with the Ministry of Water and Irrigation and we have been assured that several dams or water boreholes are being dug in that region. We hope that, that will help us overcome that menace.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the biggest problem is our porous border. Most of the time this problem comes from across the border. To counter that, we are working closely with WHO so that we can synchronize the campaign for immunization. We do it at the same time with Southern Sudan, Ethiopia and our other neighbours. As far as the coverage is concerned, that is the use of toilet, I really want to appeal to my colleagues here, that my Ministry is very vocal on this and we use the provincial administration to help us make sure that all homesteads have a toilet or a pit latrine. Unfortunately, we have not been able to cover all the areas. I do want to appeal to hon. Members to support my officers in this exercise so that we can reach 80 per cent of coverage in the whole country. That is our target. I know that the hon. Member will support me on that.

Order! Mr. Lekuton, I had received a request from Mr. Sambu and I had approved it. Mr. Sambu, please, there is no time, so just request the Ministerial Statement without going into greater details because you have already sent something to the Committee involved.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Industrialization on the delayed opening of Panpaper Mills in Webuye. On 27th May, 2009, I raised a Question by Private Notice on Panpaper Mills in which I wanted the Minister for Industrialization to, first, table the findings and recommendations of the task force which the Government appointed to investigate the closure of Panpaper Mills. Secondly, to confirm compensations for the workers who were not employed at the time of closure. Thirdly to reconfirm that the factory will re-open on the 1st June, 2009 as earlier promised by the Government.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, in his answer, the Minister admitted that due to some unforeseen technicalities, it was not possible to re-open the factory on 1st June, 2009. Instead, he gave a firm undertaking that the factory will re-open in the last week of June, 2009. I want to quote from the HANSARD. It states:-

“I wish the hon. Member could accept the last week of June as the firm target that I have given to the teams that are working there to deliver a working factory.”

Mr. Sambu, please, summarize.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, given that scenario, I am totally disappointed and amazed that we are now in August and the factory has not been re-opened and I have not been advised on yet another date of re-opening. I now seek your indulgence that the Minister issues a Ministerial Statement showing a firm work-plan and, yet again, clearly indicating the exact date of opening the factory within this firm work-plan.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think we can be able to issue the Ministerial Statement on Wednesday next week.

Mr. Assistant Minister, the issue is that there was an undertaking by you that this factory would be re-opened on a specific date. When can you address that, at the shortest period? Could you explain to this House why that undertaking has not been honored? Next Wednesday is too far, given that you had given an undertaking.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as we pleaded with the House on 27th May, 2009, the matter of Panpaper involves many parties which are not directly under the authority of the Government. It involves a lot of negotiation with other parties which is why, as the hon. Member has rightly pointed out, I did say that the last week of June was a firm target.

Order! When? What date are you going to give that Statement?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg the indulgence of the House for us to provide that Statement on Wednesday this coming week.

Mr. Sambu, are you happy with that?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not happy with that because it is well over a month. He gave a firm date as the end of June, so I do not see why he needs another week to give the Statement. I would have preferred that he gives the Statement this week, if it is possible.

If it is not going to be possible, then I do not want to force him to do what he cannot do. You understand that we even have a Committee on Implementation. So, Mr. Assistant Minister, I hope you will give that undertaking next Wednesday without failure.

Much obliged, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. In fact, you have been very right to mention the Committee on Implementation but the Assistant Minister made an undertaking that they would re-open Pan Paper Mills by the end of

Order! Order, Dr. Eseli! You can raise those issues on Wednesday next week. Was there another Ministerial Statement? I am not going to go beyond 4.00 p.m. on Question Time!

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would just like it to be recorded in the HANSARD when the Ministerial Statement about the Kenyatta University strike will be brought to the House.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have agreed that we will do it tomorrow morning.

(Mr. Imanyara); Next Order! Hon. Members, please, note as the next Order is read, we have eaten into the Committee Time and, therefore, we shall extend the session of the House by half an hour. Next Order!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Speaker do now leave the Chair. Before I move the debate on Vote No.36 for the Ministry of Lands, let me inform the House of our achievements during the fiscal year 2008/2009. The Ministry’s vision is: Excellence in land management for sustainable development of Kenya. The mission is to facilitate improvement of the livelihoods of Kenyans through the efficient administration, equitable access, secure tenure and sustainable management of the land resource. Towards this end, in the area of land management, a total of 166,401 titles were registered in 2008 and 2009 bringing to a total of slightly over 4.2 million titles registered in the country to date. This provides title owners with security of land and, therefore, incentives to use it productively.

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, during the financial year 2008/2009, the Ministry initiated and completed acquisition of land for seven infrastructural projects,

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I rise to second this Motion. First and foremost, allow me to congratulate the Minister for the achievements of his Ministry during the last financial year. The Minister has taken us through what he has achieved in the last financial year, despite the meagre resources allocated to the Ministry.

Time up, Mr. Minister!

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, with those few remarks, I beg to second this Vote.

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to support the Motion.

May I, on behalf of the Members of the Departmental Committee on Lands and Natural Resources, say how honoured I am to present to this House the Committee’s Report on the scrutiny of the Annual Estimates for the financial year 2009/2010 for Vote 36, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order No.152(1) and (2).

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, as you are aware, my Departmental Committee overseas the Ministry of Water and Irrigation, Ministry of Environment and Mineral Resources, Ministry of Forestry and Wildlife, and Ministry of Lands. Pursuant to Standing Order No.152, the Committee met with the Ministers and senior members of staff of the four Ministries, beginning July, 7th 2009. That process necessitated 12 sittings and the Report of that Committee was laid on the Table of this House.

With regard to the Ministry of Lands, I am now happy to give you our observations and recommendations, having received submissions, presentations and other reports from the Minister and his staff.

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, we are informed that over the last three years, the Ministry of Lands has consistently collected Kshs6,174,000,000 and some other amounts above that figure. That allocation, as we have been reminded by the Minister, does not match what they get from Treasury. We observed, as was reported today, that major programmes have been left out of the Budget for this year. The major one is that we did not see any allocation set aside to implement the National Land Policy.

Of the Ministries that we oversee, surely, the Ministry of Lands is the bedrock Ministry. Until we sort out the issues relating to this Ministry, and not least the National Land Policy, it is going to be extremely difficult for this Ministry, other Ministries and this nation, to achieve the objectives contained in Vision 2030. We all know how sensitive the land issue is in this country. We have noticed that certain Items have been left out of the Budget, namely, the Development of National Land Information Management Systems, Establishment of Hydrographical Survey Office, Operations of the Land Arbitration Tribunal, Land Acquisition Compensation Tribunal, the allocation to purchase land to settle the landless, whose estimate, as given by the Minister, as about Kshs2.5 billion and, of course, the purchase of vehicles. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, partially funded is the National Land Use Plan, Land Use and Land Cover Mapping, Development of Kenya National Special Data Infrastructure, Preparation of Regional and Urban Development Plans, and Conversion of Titles from RTA/GLA to RLA Registration. We observed that some of the Items that have been put under Recurrent Budget actually belong to the Development Vote. Examples are Heads 132, 096 and 026. We were also intrigued, for a Ministry that is struggling with funds, that the construction of roads under this Ministry should get increased allocations, although we know that roads are the core mandate of the Ministry of Lands. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, we wish to make the following recommendations. First of all, that the Ministry of Lands be allowed to retain at least the monies that they collect every financial year for their operations. That would add up to something in the region of Kshs6 billion. As we said, it is a very odd situation that this Ministry collects the kind of money it collects and it gets something way out of proportion to what it collects or, indeed, what it actually needs.

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I would like to join my colleagues in thanking the Minister for an excellent presentation. I am very sure that over the last few years, the Ministry has not been collecting Kshs6 billion annually. I can say that because, since the Minister took over, he has initiated a lot of changes in that Ministry. He has computerised the systems. That is why the Ministry has been able to collect Kshs6 billion in the last financial year. I am sure that the Minster has closed some loopholes that were used for corruption. That is why they were able to collect Kshs6 billion in the last financial year. The key mandate of the Ministry of Lands is the security of land tenure. It is also to create an equitable distribution of land and sustainable land use. It is also in charge of land planning and management. As the Minister said, it is also entrusted with the review and harmonization of the laws related to land management. The resolution of land and boundary disputes is a key role of that Ministry. It also plays the role of the revision of rates for leased Government land.

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, land remains the most valued natural resource in our country. That is why land-related issues, including its budget, are sensitive. Therefore, they merit careful scrutiny by Parliament. Looking at the allocation of this Ministry for the Financial Years 2008/09 and 2009/10, there are questions to be asked. There is a reduction in allocation of employees compensation, for example, District Level, Sub-Vote132 and also the reduction of the budget for the Kenya Institute of Survey and Mapping. Why these reductions? Our priority in this country is to fast- track the issuance of title deeds which fall under the Kenya Institute of Survey and Mapping.

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, if I may talk about northern Kenya, I represent Laisamis District. No single individual in that region has a title deed. This is

Thank you, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. I stand to support the Motion.

I will only comment on just a few of the issues which have been raised. First, is the issue of land tenure in Kenya. Although a lot of times we talk about the land policy in this country, very few people have managed to think about the effects of the politics to land tenure. Quite often, any pronouncement that we make on the sanctity of title deeds affects anybody who wishes to invest in this country.

It is very important that when we are looking at this land policy, we debate it a bit more carefully, so that we do not negate some of the strides that have been made in this country in terms of sanctity of title deeds which has been there in the last century since 1901.

Coming to land information management, this happens to be my bread and butter. There is much that can be discussed on land information management in this country. However, the key issue is that we have not done enough. This country has a lot of potential in terms of knowledge. We have many Kenyans who are trained and know how to do land information management, but they have not had the chance to do it. This chance needs to be given to the Ministry and any other relevant Ministry.

It is not only the Ministry of Lands that deals with land. There are several crosscutting Ministries which deal with land issues which would form the national spatial data infrastructure. Such Ministries as the Minister has just mentioned when he was talking about doing boundaries for hydrographics, you should ask your selves: What does hydrographics entail? It will go all the way to include the Ministry of Environment and Mineral Resources. It will have data for natural resources, agricultural resources and a whole host of Ministries.

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, it is very important we take cognizance of the resources that we have in this country. When we make this data infrastructure, we must finance it. We should not forget that a lot of data already exists; it is only that it has not been collated.

If you go to the private sector, bilateral donors and other institutions, you will see a lot of data exists in different types and all manner of standards. It is important that all this data be collated and put together instead of thinking of how to reinvent the wheel.

Having said that we have a lot of knowledge in this country, we have had occasion whereby when a competition is being done for this data infrastructure, you find that our Kenyan professionals are competing with other people who have not even been

Your time is up.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I will have to speak another time. I beg to support.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. I stand here to support this Motion. First, I would like to congratulate this Minister for the improvement that he has done in the Ministry of Lands since he took office. However, a few things need to be pointed out. First, by his own admission, he says only Nyanza and Western Provinces have been completed as far as land adjudication is concerned. This is a matter that should concern this House because 45 years after Independence, we still have six provinces where land adjudication has not been completed.

On fiscal planning, most of our urban centres are not planned. Therefore, you have haphazard developments coming up in most of these areas. This must fall squarely on the Ministry of Lands, that the majority of urban centres are not planned. This goes to support what the previous speaker said in as far as the issue of title deeds is concerned. Even in major urban centres, people have no title deeds to the land that they own. This retards development. It is a matter that he must address as soon as possible. On the issue of land records, I think if the Minister cared to look at the speeches made by his predecessors in this House, we have been told time and again that the Ministry of Lands was in the process of computerizing records and ensuring that they are properly maintained. In this country, we still have land records being handled manually. I think this is one of the biggest problems that we have in land administration in this country. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, if you go to the lands office, you will see heaps of files. People have to go through these files, especially when doing a search. I think it is shameful that 45 years after Independence and after adopting technologies, we still have the Ministry of Lands in Kenya keeping land records manually. I think it is deplorable and should not be allowed to continue. Something should be done. The Minister has hampered the issue of revenue collection. He said that they have been collecting Kshs6 billion annually for the last six years. That is well and good. However, I think they could have collected much more if these records were well kept. I know the majority of land owners are unable to pay land rates simply because they are not built and it takes enormous time to get the records. Therefore, I think the Minister should move very fast. In fact, computerization and putting records in a manner that they should be, ought to have been done yesterday. His predecessors have told this House--- I would like to prove this by showing the HANSARD. Previous Ministers have stood on the Floor of this House and explained that the Ministry was computerizing. Therefore, at this time, we can only expect the Minister to be telling us that he is about to complete this process and not to lament that he is unable to do computerization.

Thank you Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this Motion. The Ministry of Lands is one Ministry which needs the assistance of this House for it to be able to discharge its mandate. The Minister has told us that over the past few years, there have been very little funds consistently. However, they have so many things they would want to do, to enable the Ministry perform and Kenyans own land and so on. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, one thing which I think, as a Parliament we need to do to assist this Ministry is to leave the Appropriations-in-Aid (A-in-A) which arise from revenue collected with the Ministry, so that they can use it to do what they want to do. If they can collect Kshs6 billion per year, surely, they could use that money to do computerization which the previous speaker talked about. It is not only that, they also have the National Lands Policy to deal with. They will need money for this, yet it has not been allocated. We are talking of land adjudication in every part of the country where adjudication has not taken place. Where will the Ministry get the money to do this adjudication if, as a Ministry, they have not been allocated those funds? From where I come, there are so many landless people, popularly known as squatters. We need these squatters to be settled. From this year’s Budget, this Ministry has not been allocated a single cent to settle squatters. We will keep coming here asking Questions about settlement of squatters, but the Ministry has not been given the money. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I would like to point out that the monies collected by the Ministry must be left with the Ministry for it to be able to utilize and carry out its programmes. One of these should include settling squatters, especially in Bahari Constituency. With those few remarks, I beg to support.

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to support this Motion. The four Ministries: Ministry of Lands, Ministry of Forestry and Wildlife, Ministry of Environment and Mineral Resources and Ministry of Water and Irrigation, are the lifeline of this nation. Without these four Ministries, this nation may not survive. I think we, as the National Assembly, must pay keen attention to the resources devoted to these four Ministries. This is because the future of this nation depends on these four Ministries. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, it would have been great to debate the resources of these four Ministries together just to see what slice of the cake, we as a nation, are giving them. At Independence, we used to have a Minister for Lands and

Your time is up!

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to support.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. I also want to join my colleagues in congratulating the former and current Minister and technocrats for nearly doubling revenue contribution over the last three years. A number of years ago, when some of us were in the Civil Service, the Ministry of Lands was known to be a source of revenue to the Government. While saying this, we should take care of the staff in terms of emoluments and equipment, so that they can even do a better job. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, land is a source of conflict in Kenya, which we only discuss when we have election crisis. It is time we allocated this Ministry a lot of money. We should not do this when we are nearing or immediately after the elections. We also need to decentralize the services so that we have land registrars all over the country. My constituents have to traverse about three districts to reach the land registrar or officers to get title deeds or solve problems which occur now and again. I would also like to talk about the national land use plans. These plans are very essential and should be disseminated when they are ready. Already there is a department which deals with regional and urban plans. Sometimes, it is even at the district level. However, we do not see the work these officers do in terms of providing plans. Now, we have 254 districts and a number of constituencies. This is a very important department in the Ministry. It is important that they work so that the number of districts that are developing in urban centres do not turn out to be slums. The department should also take care of environmental issues when mapping space where industries and educational institutions are to be built. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, it is also important to increase budgetary resources to this Ministry. When I say “increase budgetary resources”, I mean this should be done during the Revised Estimates. It is good that we have now changed the format of discussing the Budget in this House by involving Parliamentary Committees. However, let us not make those Committees talking shops which come up with reports that are not implemented. I hope that the request for increased budgetary allocations will be implemented during the Revised Estimates. I want international boundaries taken care of. Recently, I had an opportunity to visit Moroto in Uganda and saw one of beacons which was interfered with. I discovered from the communities around and the security officers that, indeed, people are interfering with those beacons, not because of territorial expansion, but basically to look for mercury. We should reinstate those beacons and deal with the district boundaries issues because they keep on arising in this House. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, with those few remarks, I beg to support the Motion.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this chance to support this Motion and make a few contributions. First and foremost, I want to thank the Minister and Ministry for the good job they have done for the last three years. We have seen significant changes take place in the Ministry. I congratulate the Minister and the staff for the good work they are doing. However, I am saddened that the Ministry can collect Kshs6 billion and be allocated only Kshs2 billion or less. This is very sad, given the fact that land forms the basis for human life. Every socio-economic activity is undertaken on land. Therefore, if we cannot

Thank you, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this very important Vote.

First, I wish to thank the Minister, two Assistant Ministers and the Permanent Secretary for the way they have handled the matters of this Ministry. We note with some disappointment that this Ministry is seriously under-funded. We recognise the capacity of

Thank you very much Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker for allowing me to contribute to the Vote on this very important Ministry in our land.

When we talk about land in Kenya, we are talking about settlement of the very poor Kenyans among us. We are also talking about worthiness of land. Without land in our country, somebody feels that he is not worth anything. Also, at the end of life, somebody with a piece of land will be laid to rest on his land. Therefore, land is very important in this country. I would like to congratulate the Minister, the PS and their team addressing land issues in this country. I am happy that they have been able to address corruption in their Ministry. It is encouraging to note that the Ministry is able to collect revenue for itself. That is why I concur with my colleagues that the Ministry should be given the opportunity to retain the money they collect, so that they can improve on service delivery. They can computerise most of their services. I would urge the Ministry to decentralise land issuance of title deeds and other records. We want to access all land records in Kapenguria. We do not want our people to travel all the way to Eldoret, Nakuru, Kitale or Nairobi to know the status of a particular land in Kapenguria. It is very important that the Ministry considers decentralising land issues. Some of these land issues can be tackled at the district level.

Time up!

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to support.

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I stand to support Vote 36 of the Ministry of Lands. I join my colleagues in saying that the Minister, Assistant Ministers and the technical staff led by the Permanent Secretary have done a wonderful job for the first time in the history of this country as far land issues are concerned. Land is a very sensitive issue. This is a crucial Ministry that cuts across other sectors. I support the new land policy that the Minister is going to bring to this House. A number of issues will be solved. Land has a bearing on governance and the demographic development of this country.

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, we need to move from the old systems in the Ministry of Lands. We need to put working systems in place and computerize our land operations. I want the Minister to bring those plans to Parliament and we will support him. We want to have a clear system. An institution that does not have systems is an institution that is going to fail. Until we put proper computerized systems where a Kenyan or a lawyer will get the relevant document at the touch of a button, then we are talking of an old land system.

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, the Ministry of Lands needs to address issues to do with councils. A number of my colleagues have not raised that issue. A lot of corruption and issues to do with land in this country emanate from the councils. Councils and councilors who are the trustees of land in a number of regions in this country, including where I come from, are involved in high level corruption, where through councillors, mayor, town chairman or a group of councilors, a number of Kenyans are allocated land and double registration is done. That means that corruption is very rife. I want the Minister to look into that issue.

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, there was a ban on land allocations in this country by the President. A case in point is my constituency. For the last 15 years, land allocation has not been done and the only reason being given is that the former President, Mr. Daniel Toroitich arap Moi put a ban on that. It is ridiculous, immoral and cannot work. Garissa Town is one of the most expansive and fast growing towns. If you have not allocated land for 15 or 16 years then you ask yourself why we are talking of Vision 2030 or developing our urban centres. The Minister and the technical team are aware that due

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Vote. I would like the Minister, while replying, to assure the House that the Sessional Paper that we have been waiting for will be coming to this House soon. It has taken a long time. We have been waiting for a comprehensive land policy for a very long time. It is only until a few weeks ago that we were happy to learn that the Cabinet had eventually passed the draft land policy. We are hoping that it will soon come to this House. We would like to assure the Minister that we will be supporting it. We will do so knowing that land is a very critical and sensitive matter. When we look at what has happened in this country for many years starting from Independence, we shed blood because of land. When we look at what happened in 1992, 1997 and 2007, it is because of land that we have shed innocent blood in this country. It is not because of Orange Democratic Party (ODM) or Party of National Unity (PNU), Ford or KANU. It is because of land that we did shed blood. So, we need the Government to prioritize land issues because it is a ticking time bomb and unless it is addressed, it is something that will explode and tear this country apart. I say so because we have had a serious problem of landlessness and squatters. These are Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs) who have been around for many years. Since last year, we have been hustling to settle IDPs. In this year’s Budget, we have set aside some money towards the settlement of IDPs. However, we failed to recognize that the longest IDPs are the squatters. Kenyans who have been landless and refugees in their own motherland since Independence are also Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs). We are all hoping that this year in this Budget, there would be a provision for settlement of the landless and squatters. In the last Budget, there was nothing. In the previous Budget, we had a provision of about Kshs1.3 billion which went towards purchase of land, Solio Ranch in

Yes, hon. Emilio Kathuri!

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would also want to stand here and support this Motion. I would like to make it very clear that my name is Emilio. We are not so many in Kenya, so the name should be so easy to remember in future. I stand here to support this Motion.

It is worth noting that land matters are very emotive. We have witnessed relatives hacking each other in Kenya over land related matters. A very good example is the Rift Valley skirmishes which we witnessed. We may have had people saying that they are historical injustices but the bottom line is that all of them were land related issues. It is also worth noting that whoever wants to talk big in Kenya, the first item to own on earth which makes one feel that he is somebody, is a big chunk of land. Even those who own the big chunks of land in Kenya, we know that if you want to differ with them, touch any of those assets even if they are idle.

I would want, while supporting this Motion, to mention a few issues which I think have contributed negatively towards achieving our objectives. One of them is the issue of stamp duty. We know that stamp duty accruing for urban land is 4 per cent at the stage of transfer and agricultural or rural land is normally seen as 2 per cent. But I would imagine that it would have been a better policy for the Government, specifically the Ministry of

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand to support the Motion.

The Ministry of Lands has been given less than Kshs500 million to handle problems of land in this country, yet any time you hear people yelling at one another, leaders barking at one another, people fighting, ethnic clashes, name it, it is over land. All these problems started with us since the colonial days; at the beginning of last century and we have given them very little money. Today, we know that we have very serious land problems; Mau is not an issue of forest. It is an issue of land where some people who thought they were missing out in land entered into the forest. Those people who missed out on the land to enter the forest actually lost land to others who had come from other parts of the country. It is the problem that relates to the colonial days and we have given this Ministry less than Kshs1billion. Yesterday when I was in the constituency office, a few of my constituents came to me telling me that they are squatters on some land within the constituency. They want land! They showed me a piece of paper; a letter that was written to them by the Ministry officers that we help them look for land.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I stand to support this Motion. I have heard from my colleagues that the Ministry has been allocated less than half a billion shillings which, to me, I feel that it is not adequate. That is because the Ministry needs computerization. I do not know whether this money includes computerization also. If you go to the offices of the Ministry of Lands, the place just looks like a disaster! The only way they can be able to manage their records is through proper computerization. The Ministry needs to be computerized and the Government needs to look into that. The other thing, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, is that I come from a very notorious place known for double allocation - Athi River/Mavoko. There, you can find two, three

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity. I rise to support this Motion on the Vote for the Ministry of Lands. The Minister could not have been taken to a better Ministry. I know most of the people there. His Permanent Secretary used to be the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs. I also know the Director of Survey and the Commissioner of Lands. They are competent people.

Let me also thank the Minister for the cleanup he has done and is continuing to do. Even from a physical point of view, there was time you could not enter Ardhi House because of the brokers. They have since been removed. However, I understand that they have started to come back. The Minister had removed even the agents, but the information I have is that they have started to come back. The Minister used to fight in the streets against land grabbers. Now he has been given a kiboko . He should possess all the illegally acquired land. Demolish all buildings on riparian reserves. There should be no discussion about it. Demolish all the houses built on road reserves. There should be no discussion about it. We must have discipline in the management of our land. Even further, start producing a list of shame. Name people who have acquired public land illegally. Let us know them. A person is known by a name. Let us know them so that we can treat them accordingly. I would also like to thank the Minister for the work that he has done in claiming Migingo Island. I think everybody knows that Migingo Island has always belonged to Kenya. Even the exercise the Ministry is doing will confirm the obvious. However, it is good so that other people can be convinced. After the Minister is through with Migingo Island, he should embark on our boundary with Somalia, Ethiopia and others countries so that they are properly marked and agreed upon. Those maps should then be deposited with the United Nations. We do not want to experience issues similar to the one of Migingo Island in other places. We are aware that the Minister has a few bad apples in his house. They are the ones who backdate letters of allotment. Even today, land is being allotted, but the letters are being backdated more than ten years ago. This is causing a lot of confusion. The main problem has been implementation. We do not require new laws. For example, the letter of allotment clearly says that you cannot transfer it. However, that has been done! When you have been issued with a title deed, you cannot transfer it before you have fulfilled all the developmental conditions. I think people used to be given 24 months. This has never changed. For me, all that is required is to implement the existing laws. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we talk of squatters. I wonder how somebody can be a squatter in his own country. We need to stop the love for land. Many Asians do not own shambas and yet they are the richest people in this country. Why this hullaballoo about land? There are other financial instruments that people should invest in. We have got shares, bonds, Treasury Bills and so on. Why this hullaballoo about land? I do not understand it. In fact, today, if you gave me a piece of land, you told me to go and cultivate, I do not know what I would do. We need to stop this thing about land. Lastly, it is important for this Ministry to come out clear and state that it is the right of every Kenya to own land anywhere in the Sovereign Republic of Kenya. When you own land there, you cannot be a foreigner or a non-indigenous person. Once you own

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I think it is the mood of this House that we call upon the Mover of this Motion---

Order! Order, Mr. Njuguna! This is regulated by the Standing Orders.

I now call upon the Minister to reply.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to thank Members of Parliament (MPs) for the very laudatory remarks they have made about the Ministry and the way the Ministry is being run. I know that hon. Njuguna is very enthusiastic on the Ministry of Lands. So, he will not want to hear anybody opposing anything related to the Ministry of Lands.

May I also salute the Departmental Committee under the chairmanship of Hon. Mutava Musyimi. You have made very concrete proposals to the House. I am going to urge my team that we take the record of the proceedings of this House for today and confront our colleagues in Parliament, so that the views that have been made by MPs in relation to the Ministry are considered for purposes of realigning allocations in future Estimates, so that the Ministry can run on a better basis.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I must again emphasise that, with this very difficult task, together with my team in the Ministry, and my very able Permanent Secretary (PS), we do not all the time feel that we are doing enough. However, at least, the little that has been done has been noticed. That is sufficient motivation for us to do even better.

I just want to comment on a few general things that have been said during the debate. I want to assure hon. Members of this House that any backdated land allocations on the basis of allotment letters that are not current--- In fact, last year, we did put a notice in the newspapers that anybody who claims to have been allocated any piece of land and had not confirmed acceptance of the offer that was given in those letters of offer or allotment, were given 45 days. When those 45 days expired, we were not in a position any more to consider any allotments that were given a year ago or earlier. We can only deal with the current letters of allotment. In any case, we are not giving letters of allotment unless they relate to very importantly, or justified, purposes. So, I want to assure hon. Githae that that is not happening. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also want to tell the House that the Ministry of Lands does not have enforcement mechanisms. There are pieces of land that have been irregularly allocated, or illegally allocated, or which are in the hands of the wrong persons, or where there has been double allocation. We do not have an enforcement mechanism within the Ministry of Lands. We can only make a declaration. I would want to remind the Ministry of Local Government, the Ministry of Water and Irrigation, and the Ministry of Environment and Mineral Resources, that within the statutes that they use to manage their affairs, they have enforcement mechanisms. For instance, for the protection of wetlands, under the Water Act, there are provisions that can enable the line Ministries to take some action. In Nairobi, we did give notices in respect of land parcels that had been irregularly allocated or in respect of situations where people have erected buildings on wetlands. Now, when it comes to the

Hon. Members, the House will go into Committee in about two hours time for both Votes. Next Motion.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to present the estimates of Vote 55 for the Ministry of Forestry and Wildlife for the 2009/2010. The Ministry of Forestry and Wildlife’s mandate is to protect, conserve and sustainably manage forestry and wildlife resources in the country. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the Budget Speech for 2009/2010 Fiscal Year, agriculture, tourism, energy, fishing and manufacturing among others were identified as the key sectors for our country’s economic development. As you will note, the above mentioned sectors have fundamental issues relating to environment, climate change and food security, all of which have direct relationship with my Ministry. The success of these sectors will, therefore, depend heavily on how we address conservation and management matters pertaining to forestry and wildlife resources and the challenges arising from prevailing ecological circumstances. This scenario is dictated by the following factors: 1. Forests are of critical importance for conservation of our country’s biodiversity. The percentage of forest cover in the country directly affects the intensity and extent of rainfall. Protecting our forests, therefore, has immense practical value to secure regular supply of water. It is notable that gradual depletion of the country’s forest cover through human encroachment has resulted in gross reduction in river flow. Consequently, there has been significant drop in water levels in our lakes and reservoirs. In Kenya, the five major water towers, namely; Mt. Kenya, Aberdares, Cherengany, Mt. Elgon and of course, Mau Forest Complex, are the lifeline of agriculture, energy, water and tourism and fish farming sectors. These water towers have to be protected at all costs. Through Vote 55, my Ministry intends to undertake serious campaigns to increase the forest cover from the current 1.7 per cent to 2.5 per cent. We shall also undertake to rehabilitate the water towers as flagship projects. In return, this will be expected to boost agriculture, energy, water and tourism sectors and propel the growth of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) for the realization of Vision 2030. 2. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, food security in the country depends on the availability of rains. These rains heavily depend on forest cover. Since the forest cover in the country is under serious threat, less rain is being received, thus leading to continued food insecurity. It is imperative that all efforts are made to increase, protect and conserve our forest in a bid to enhance rain and ground water retention. The country’s intention to use irrigation agriculture as an option can only be sustainable with reliable rainfall.

Mr. Minister, your time is up!

Can I just take a minute?

No! Time is up!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was going to talk about the Wildlife Clubs which received Kshs18, 800,000. With those few remarks, I beg to move and I have requested the Chairman of the Department Committee, Mr. Musyimi to second.

The Chairman cannot second the Minister. He has his position. The seconder should come from the Government side.

Maj-Gen Nkaisserry has seconded by bowing! That is good enough!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, then I can continue to say a few remarks!

No! You cannot continue after bowing!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was saying that I was coming to second this Motion and that is why I bowed!

Okay, proceed, Maj-Gen Nkaisserry!

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy “Chairman”. I second this very important Vote and in doing so, we realize that this Ministry carries---

Order, Maj-Gen. Nkaisserry! Where is your Chairman?

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, unfortunately, the current Speaker happens to be my Chairman. So, sorry Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. In seconding this very important Vote, we realize that this Ministry holds two important departments; the Department of Forests and the Department of Wildlife. It is important that we look critically at these two very important resources. As I speak now, I am in charge of several wildlife; elephants, buffaloes and lions which have run away from the Amboseli National Park and are now in a place called Maparasha catchment area. But the very unfortunate thing is that when livestock move to the national parks, the Ministry and the wildlife people chase away the livestock farmers. This is unacceptable because we co-exist with wildlife. We are the keepers! Pastoralists are the keepers of wildlife ever since this world was created and not people in the cities. It is the people, the land owners, the pastoralists and the ranch owners. So, I would like to plead with the Minister to direct the Director of Wildlife and his team to be kind enough as pastoralists have been so kind to the wildlife by co-existing with the wildlife in our ranches. The second very important aspect in this Ministry is the forest. At the moment, the Mau Forest is a very emotive issue. I would like to suggest that this country or the Government should make a prudent decision to ensure that all forest areas in this country are repossessed and protected and not only the Mau Forest. But for the Mau Forest, we want anybody who is not a bona fide settler to move out of the Mau and only bona fide settlers should be compensated. We should not politicize this issue. It is very important that once a decision is made, it should be implemented. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Cabinet made a decision and it should be implemented: That people who are not bona fide settlers, especially the big fish should have been kicked out of the Mau like yesterday. It is only through bold decisions that this country can move forward. The Government must take prudent and bold decisions and ensure that forested areas are protected. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if we do not protect the forests, especially the Mau Complex and Lake Victoria even River Nile will eventually dry up and the people downstream, all the way to Egypt, who are dependent on River Nile, will eventually lose their livelihoods.

So, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is important that we do not politicize this issue of forested areas and we should not also, as a Government, be hard on the pastoralists as they graze in the national parks.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, with those few remarks, I second.

Proceed, hon. Kioni!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir---

Order, Mr. Musyimi! It is not a must that you should come first, Mr. Chairman! But since you are requesting, proceed!

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. May I, on behalf of the Members of the Departmental Committee on Lands and Natural Resources, say

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity to also make some remarks on this Vote. From the outset, I would like to say that I support the Vote of the Ministry, but I have a few remarks to make.

This Ministry is in charge of two very main natural resources, namely forestry and wildlife. As the Minister has ably said, it is in charge of the five water towers in this country. The Forestry Department is the one that should address issues to do with our forest cover, which is currently at 1.7 per cent, as opposed to being at more than 10 per cent, which is the requirement of the United Nations (UN).

If you look at the trend of this country’s rainfall intensity, you will realise that over the last few years, it has really been going down. Again, food security has been an issue in this country. So, we look upon this Ministry, through the Kenya Forestry Service (KFS), to ensure that there is good forest cover in this country in order to address those issues.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, going to the other natural resources, namely wildlife, I want to put it very rightly, on behalf of the pastoral communities. I know that my colleague, Maj-Gen. Nkaisserry, was a bit compromised when he was asked to second the Motion. He got disorganised. He did not put the record straight. I want to tell the Minister for Forestry and Wildlife that he cannot have wildlife without livestock. Nowhere does wildlife exist and there are no livestock. I also want to tell him that 80 per cent of our wildlife lives outside the so-called “protected areas”, which are the national parks. The words “protected areas” are very misplaced, because there is no place that is not protected. Even places outside the

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I stand to support the Ministry’s budget. This is a crucial Ministry in this country. A lot of foreign earnings for this country come as a result of the activities of this Ministry. There are a couple of things that I would also like to add that I think are important. I find it a bit interesting that the Ministry has not found it necessary to work on the Rural Electrification Programme. In an area like Ndaragwa, we can only benefit from Aberdares Forest if some power is provided to the fence. In so doing, the neighbouring communities will benefit. There will be a lot of sense for us to continue taking care of the forest that has been next to us.

Secondly, even as we are discussing the issues of Mau Complex and what human beings have done to it, we have failed to note that over 80,000 acres of the forest cover of the Aberdares Forest has disappeared because of the huge fires that have continued to wreck havoc. Sometimes, it takes even three or four weeks before anybody goes there to put out the fire. Without the fire command stations or posts, we will continue losing this forest cover even if we get human beings away from Mau Complex and other water towers. It is also important that the Ministry takes care of the forest even as we all support the fact that human activity should be reduced to the minimum within those towers.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance, in his Budget Speech, indicated that the purpose of a budget is to prioritize the national needs in accordance with the limited resources. This Budget would indicate what the national priorities are. Looking at this nation today, I do not think there can be a greater priority than the Mau Forest Complex and the other water towers of this country that are endangered. Indeed, to show that we are taking this matter as a matter of priority, we could only confirm this through serious allocation of resources towards this Ministry. This is because there is a crisis. Unless adequate resource are allocated to this Ministry to actually put in efforts to rehabilitate forest cover from the current 1.7 per cent to the international standard of 10 per cent, we will not just be failing ourselves but we will also be failing future generations.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for allowing me to contribute on this Motion. From the outset, I would like to support this Motion. I would like to dedicate my remarks to the great work that is being done by the civil society in conservation, led by the Nobel Laureate, Prof. Wangari Maathai and the four groups, including the East African Breweries Limited, Equity Bank, the Nation Media Group and the Kenya Wildlife Service that has come on board on “save the Mau” initiative. This is a bold move, under the good stewardship of the Director of Kenya Wildlife Service who falls under this Ministry. If all the corporations under this Ministry and other Ministries

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me the chance to contribute to this very important Vote. I also wish to thank the Minister for the way he has been handling affairs of this Ministry. I also recognize the critical and sterling performance by the Director of the Kenya Wildlife Service. I also wish to commend the satisfactory service rendered by the Director of Kenya Forest Service. These two directors are doing a good work. We should strive to enhance what they have done. Their responsibilities and duties have been felt all over the country.

Mr. Njuguna, your time is up!

With those remarks, I support the Vote.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this Ministry’s Vote. From the outset, I would like to say that we need forests. We need to protect and plant so that we can have wood for construction and conservation measures. Therefore this is a Ministry which deserves a higher allocation than any other because this is our livelihood. The forestry sector has been ignored for a long time. It used to get funds from the World Bank but the funds are no longer forthcoming. So, the forest sector was ignored and their staff retrenched and yet we know that forests depend on manpower. The casual labourers and subordinate staff who were there at that time would plant trees. We need a big budget so that we can put our forests back to where there were before. My only problem is that we want to have a cover. We have had a ban on forest

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

It better be a good point of order!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, you heard the hon. Member allude that people in the headquarter support somebody who is involved in illegal activities. Is it in order for the hon. Member to allude such issues when those people do not have a forum for defence and get away with it?

Order, Mr. Mututho! You would have asked whether he has any evidence rather than asking him whether it is in order for him to say so. He has the right to speak!

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Let me say the Forest Act has been used selectively because you have not implemented the CFAs authority on management of forests. Forest officers have been arresting CFAs everywhere because they have not been supported as per the Act. They have arrested them and put them in jail. The Minister visited the district where he found CFAs in custody because they were voicing their concerns on the destruction of forests. As usual, the forest officer was “Mr. Right” because of the connections. I want to say that corruption must stop---

Order! Your time is up!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Forest Act was passed in 2005. The effective date of operation or implementation was February 2007. I think we have let down this country. When I say “we”, I am talking about the Government and Parliament because this Act should have been operationalised that time. They just set up a board and I am rather disappointed because in that board, people from Samburu District are not represented. Why do I want people from Samburu District to sit

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want to be very brief. I am totally in support of what my substantive Minister and the Chairman of the Departmental Committee has said – that

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this chance to contribute to the Motion. First, I would like to thank the Minister, the Assistant Ministers, the Permanent Secretary and the directors for the good work they are doing in the Ministry. All the same I want to talk about human encroachment. People encroach forests and this is a challenge to the Ministry.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have forest guards. Where were the forest guards when humans started encroaching into the forests? When the first person encroached, he should have been stopped. Why am I raising this issue? We have the Mau

Order, Ms. Chepchumba! Time up!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, with those remarks, I beg to support.

Thank you, very much, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for this time that you have given me. Let me also join others by supporting the Vote of this Ministry which is very important. First of all, let me thank the Minister and his entire team for coming to Marakwet during the time when we had problems in Embobut Forest.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the whole philosophy of planting trees is like watering a sponge. It makes the earth able to absorb all the water that it can. I want to give an example. If you look at this bottle here, if you allowed a sponge of the same size to stay here overnight, by tomorrow it will still be holding water. However, if you leave some water on the surface of this table, there will be no water tomorrow. Should you be lucky enough to have a sponge this size, it is going to take a week before it dries, under the conditions here. If you have one big enough, as big as this table, then you are going to have one year of water. Water that is exposed is vulnerable to evaporation. God designed evapo-transpiration. This is the process by which plants are able to draw that water systematically and gradually and eventually release it to the environment in quantities that God Himself designed. Of course, man has invented other things like eucalyptus trees. These are destroying aquifers and boreholes. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is embarrassing that we are sitting here to discuss the budget of this Ministry because of the allocation given. Even after having acknowledged the fact that we are all falling into pieces because of Mau Forest Complex, we still hear wonderful figures of 0.7 per cent allocation. This is too small for even a primary school teacher to mark you wrong in a budget situation. If you look at the Ministry of Lands for instance, you will realize that the amount of money used by the police department to repair helicopters is more than the total allocation for the Ministry of Lands. This is so, yet, all the conflicts we have are related to land. We are, however, voting a shameful under Kshs1 billion. Look at the allocation to the energy sector. Most of the tree cover is destroyed because our people require wood. Let us not pretend. They need to cook and they need light. They also need to warm themselves. Although we have a big potential in geothermal energy we have been able to explore only 1 per cent. This leaves 99 per cent unused and in the meantime, we are going to depend on hydro-electricity and other forms of energy that will accelerate demand and destruction of our environment. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, looking at what the Minister is focusing on, if wishes were horses, he would be able to have a forest cover of 10 per cent. This is still not good enough because we have arid lands. This, again, can be looked at with agriculture so that we look at the agro-forestry component to an extent that we could have arable land which forms about 25 per cent to 30 per cent also covered. Looking at the whole scenario, we need a revolution in the thinking of the Treasury. We need a revolution for them to see clearly that this is a country that depends on agriculture. They need a revolution to see that without forests and agriculture--- When talking of agriculture, I am talking about seven Ministries, namely: the Ministry of Agriculture, the Ministry of Livestock Development, the Ministry of Lands, the Ministry of Forestry and Wildlife, the Ministry of Regional Development Authorities, the Ministry of Development of Northern Kenya and other Arid Lands and Ministry of Fisheries Development. All these Ministries have been allocated 4.7 per cent of the national Budget. Thirty seven crucial Ministries will scramble for 4.47 per cent of the Budget, and yet they are the same ones that are feeding all of us and employing 80 per cent of us in

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this chance, because I came to bury Ceasar and not to praise him. I came to pass the Vote of this Ministry and say a few words that are not very complimentary.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, a Ministry is as good as the people who occupy it. In my judgment, this is one Ministry that is totally asleep. This Ministry is supposed to increase forest cover, but it has sat idle as Mau, Aberdares, Mt. Kenya, and Cherangany forests were depleted by loggers. If you go to where I come from in Kinangop, you will find that even my own rivers are drying up and, yet this Ministry has just been sitting and watching. At one time I had to go to the office of the Permanent Secretary and say that we will not allow people to be issued with licences in Nairobi to go and cut trees, when we could clearly see that, that would deplete forest cover.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, take the case of Blue Gum trees. A few years ago, there was this hype about South African Blue Gum trees and everybody was planting them. We were told that they would mature within four years and we would sell them. However, six years down the line, they are not twice my height. This is the Ministry that should have advised us. It has the responsibility to tell us whether it is good or bad to plant these trees. Even in my local station – and Kinangop used to be very wet – we used to plant Blue Gum trees in marshy areas because they would suck all the water. This Ministry has been sitting idle. To me, this is one Ministry that should either be scrapped or merged with others and given effective chief executive officers, so that we can save this country.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, last year, they were fencing the Aberdares and for about four months, there was a tug of war between the Kenya Forestry Service (KFS) and Kenya Wildlife Service (KWS). The KWS wanted the fence where it ought to be to protect the wildlife and cover most of the forest. The KFS wanted it up in the mountain so that they could clear all this area. If this was the time I was in the private sector, people would pay for their sins. Even where that fence was put, it ought to be brought down so that more forest is protected. I will give you an incident. I had a road that I wanted to gravel and put murram. About four kilometers extend from the settlement area into the forest. That was an excuse for the KFS to want to clear four kilometers of trees. I had to say that if the road will cause that havoc, we will stop it in order to save the trees. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, anywhere you go and see a Forest Officer, they are surrounded by loggers. But the current Forest Officer in Njabini is a good man. He is very committed to doing his work planting trees. But anywhere else, you will see Forest Officers surrounded by loggers. You would think that they are politicians. Instead of protecting our forests, they are doing nothing. I am really mad about this thing because any time there is a fire in the forest, it is my people who are mobilised to put it off.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand to support this Motion and the Vote for the Ministry of Forestry and Wildlife. I would want to start by saying that this Ministry has a lot of correlation with the Ministries of Land, Water and Irrigation and Environment and Mineral Resources. All these Ministries solely depend on the functions of the Ministry of Forestry and Wildlife. Why do I say this? If you check in this country any area where there are no trees, we call that place a desert. For us to covert that place so that it does not become a desert, we must do afforestation. Afforestation does not fall in any other docket. If we do afforestation we get water. If we get water, we irrigate land. When we irrigate land, we are able to do activities related to agriculture which would be of economic gains to the community. It is also important to realise that if we do not do afforestation, definitely we will be talking of the environment having being interfered with. This Ministry is of paramount importance to this country. It is for this reason that I believe that whatever they are allocated is not enough to sustain the activities they are meant to undertake. It is also true that they are not doing enough to even attract sympathy and attention from many of us who are really supporting them morally, if not materially. When we talk of the Ministry of Forestry and Wildlife, we know that it is our lifeline. They have many agendas. Some of them have tasks which are enormous enough to overwhelm them. But we would expect to see at least, some effort which will make us also see that they are working. A good example is the human-wildlife conflict. Lives have been lost and questions have been asked in this House. It is very worrying when we see paltry compensation given to those who have suffered fatal injuries arising out of attacks by wildlife. A good example is my blood uncle, brother to my mother who succumbed to death as a result of injuries occasioned by an elephant from Mt. Kenya Forest. There was no compensation. How do you expect the communities living within the area to become protectors of the wildlife? We need this wildlife so that we can attract tourists and at least the Kenyan Government can earn some revenue from them. It will not be possible if we do not address the human-wildlife conflict. Our crops are being destroyed by monkeys and other animals which feed on fodder and crops.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is very sad that the compensation that the affected farmers got is a paltry figure. It is important for the Ministry to address that. We need to see them preventing the logging which takes place illegally. It should be done away with. We want to see the Ministry shouting at the top of its voice that so and so is interfering with our activities. We do not want to see any logging taking place. There could be over-age trees but until a tree falls by itself, nobody should cut it unless it is endangering lives of human beings or animals. After all, they survive on those trees. It is very important to accept and admit that if you go to Mt. Kenya Forest right now,

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me also add my voice to this Vote. What would I like to see this Ministry do? First, the water towers. Everybody is talking about them. Some money is going to be sourced and when it comes, we want to plant more trees in those areas which have been devastated. Before that happens, could the Ministry, with the little that it has do something? The water towers on their own will not increase the forest cover in the country. What should we do to increase the forest cover? As a Ministry, let there be programmes in place to plant trees not only in the water towers but everywhere else in the country. By saying everywhere else, I mean that let each and every homestead plant trees starting with hon. Members. Let all the school children be asked to plant trees and make sure that they tend them until they grow. Let everybody else plant trees. Maybe we can even ask our tourists when they come to plant a tree each before they go back.

Secondly, the Kenya Forestry Research Institute has a duty to give us species which are indigenous. We have had so many speakers talking about the exotic trees.

Order! Your time is up! It is now time for the Minister to respond.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, in that case, I support.

Order, Mr. Orengo!

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to use this opportunity to commend my colleagues for the very good suggestions that they have made. My officers are here, and I hope that as I was making my own notes, they were also making the notes. Hon. Members have come up with very good suggestions that will help us to give Kenyans a better service. Currently, you pick a newspaper and you see Mau, drought and Kenyans dying of hunger. I wonder how many of us think about the real cause of all those things. The real cause is that we do not have enough water. Water is life! And as we proceed to address the issue of Vision 2030, we should not forget the fact that climate change is with us now; that, indeed, things have changed in the last 50 years. Lake Nakuru has recessed over 100 metres in the last 25 years. So, the climate change is with us. As we read these headlines, we must, as Kenyans, as hon. Members, ask ourselves: Are things still the way they were 50 years ago or do we have change? We have tremendous change. The international community and so-called developed countries have realized that, indeed, we must do something about climate change. So, as we read these headlines, we in the Government must match it with the reality on the ground. The reality is that we had drought last year and we are having even more drought this year. The reality is that all our water towers have been degraded. I just want to give you some figures and this is

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Minister to say that pastoralists and livestock are not part of that park ecosystem?

I did not say that, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. But I want to say this: The new Bill that is coming before the Cabinet in a week or so - and we hope that before September or thereabouts, the Bill will come to this House - recognizes the importance of people living around forests and national parks. In that Bill, we have recognized that the best friends we have are the people living next to national parks; those are the first askaris that look after our animals and, indeed, many pastoral communities have been in the forefront of protecting the lion and the elephant. But this Bill is going to---

Order, Mr. Minister! Just refer to it. Do not anticipate debate!

Okay. I was just going to say that we will soon be discussing it. But there is an issue that I wanted to address; that donor funding is being used in the wrong way. I just want to say that the donor funds that we have been getting have been utilised for development. But nearly all the activities are

Order, Mr. Minister! Your time is up!

With those few remarks, I beg to move.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, a sum not exceeding Kshs943,681,600 be issued from the Consolidated Fund to complete the sum necessary to meet the expenditure during the year ending 30th June, 2010 in respect of:- Vote 36 – Ministry of Lands

VOTE R36 – RECURRENT EXPENDITURE

SUB-VOTE 360 – GENERAL ADMINISTRATION AND PLANNING

SUB-VOTE 362 – LAND ADJUDICATION AND SETTLEMENT

Hon. Members, we have to proceed to the other Ministry and then go to the next stage.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:-

THAT, sum not exceeding Kshs2,635,614,425 be issued from the Consolidated Fund to complete the sum necessary to meet the expenditure during the year ending 30th June, 2010 in respect of:-

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I am directed to report that the Committee of Supply has considered the Resolution that a sum not exceeding Kshs943, 681,600 be issued form the Consolidated Fund to complete the sum necessary to meet expenditure during the year ending 30th June, 2010 in respect of Vote 36 – Ministry of Lands and has approved the same without amendment.

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution.

(Mr.Otieno) seconded.

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I am directed to report that the Committee of Supply has considered the Resolution that a sum not exceeding Kshs2, 635,614,425 be issued from the Consolidated Fund to complete the sum necessary to meet expenditure during the year ending 30th June, 2010 in respect of Vote 55 – Ministry of Forestry and Wildlife and approved the same without amendment.

Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution.

(Mr.Otieno) seconded.

Hon. Members, it is now time to interrupt the business of the House. The House, is therefore, adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday 5th August, 2009 at 9.00 a.m.

The House rose at 8.20 p.m.