Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance the following Question by Private Notice. Could the Minister clarify whether he has allocated Kshs100 million (or any amount at all) in the 2009/2010 Financial Year for disbursement to Nominated Members of Parliament and if so, explain the purpose for the allocation, state under which Vote and provide the legal justification for such allocation?
Is anyone here from the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance? We will leave the Question and come back to it later on.
Let us move on to the Question by the Member for Ikolomani!
to ask the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security:- What is the legality and viability of the newly created districts in view of the recent judgment by the Kisii Resident Judge declaring them illegal?
Is Dr. Khalwale not here? Hon. Members, I am afraid we have to give that Question the same treatment. We shall revisit it a little later.
Let us move on to the Question by the Member for Sigor!
Is Mr. Litole not here? That Question will also be revisited later on.
Let us move on to Mrs. Noorâs Question!
Is Mrs. Noor also not here? What is not happening this afternoon?
Let us move on to the Question by Mr. ole Lankas!
asked the Minister for Transport:- (a) how many airstrips there are in the Mara as well as their respective locations and capacities; and, (b) whether the Government could consider upgrading and modernizing Narok Airstrip to serve the entire Southern Rift region?
Is anyone here from the Ministry of Transport? We will revisit that Question a little later.
Let us move on to the Question by the Member for Limuru!
Is the Member for Limuru also not here? We will do the second round and I am afraid this time round we will have to take action against those who are absent both ways! Yes, Mr. Mbadi!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the second time, I beg to ask the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance the following Question by Private Notice. Could the Minister clarify whether he has allocated Kshs.100 million (or any amount at all) in the 2009/2010 Financial Year for disbursement to Nominated Members of Parliament and if so, explain the purpose for the
Could a Member of the Front Bench take some responsibility and call the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I take that responsibility. I will try to get the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance.
This is a Question by Private Notice and by its nature, it is urgent!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I appreciate that fact.
We will revisit it once again. Let us move on to the Question by the Member for Ikolomani!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I apologise for arriving late. I was being frisked at the security desk. I beg to ask the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security the following Question by Private Notice. What is the legality and viability of the newly created districts, in view of the recent judgment by the Kisii Resident Judge declaring them illegal?
Is the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and National Security not here? The Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs, do you have any explanation on their absence?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, if you will forgive me, I think it is a matter of record that the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security is dealing with the emergency in Samburu. Although I have not checked this morning whether he is around, I wish you could allow me the same indulgence as you did with the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance so that I can call him to come and deal with this. Kindly, call out the Questions for the third round once you call them for the second time if you do not mind.
I am afraid the circumstances are such that I will have to do so. The Member for Sigor!
Is Mr. Litole still not here? We have to balance this. I am afraid I have to leave this Question also for the third round.
Yes, Mrs. Noor!
Is Mrs. Noor also not here? Let us move on to Mr. ole Lankasâ Question!
asked the Minister for Transport:- (a) how many airstrips there are in the Mara as well as their respective locations and capacities; and, (b) whether the Government could consider upgrading and modernising Narok Airstrip to serve the entire Southern Rift region.
Is the Minister for Transport still not here? I think the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs is endeavouring to do what he can.
Let us move on to the Question by the Member for Gwasi!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs for literary pulling the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance into the House. For the third time, I beg to ask the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance the following Question by Private Notice. Could the Minister clarify whether he has allocated Kshs.100 million (or any amount at all) in the 2009/2010 Financial Year for disbursement to Nominated Members of Parliament and if so, explain the purpose for the allocation, state under which Vote and provide the legal justification for such allocation?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I apologise for walking in late. However, I beg to reply.
I wish to clarify that my Ministry has not allocated Kshs100 million or any amount at all in Financial Year 2009/20010 for disbursement to nominated Members of Parliament or any other Member of Parliament. However, I wish to clarify that my
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Budget process involves the line Ministries and various departments forwarding their Budget Estimates to the Ministry which then rationalises the same and compiles the Annual Budget Estimates. Who asked for this money from the Ministry of Finance? We all know the CDF funds are governed by an Act of Parliament. Where is an Act governing this particular fund?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, all monies in the Budget are subject to the approval of the National Assembly. Treasury does receive requests for numerous special interest groups. I did receive representation from nominated Members of Parliament who requested that we provide funds to allow them equally to undertake activities, not just in the House, but also outside the House with regard to interest groups throughout the country for a national constituency. We found the same request reasonable and provided funds. But the authority as to whether those funds shall be approved lie with this House. If the House deems it not to approve, the same can be reallocated by the very same House.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance clarify which these interests groups are?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, such groups are orphans, HIV/AIDS victims, people with disability, marginalised groups, youths, drugs related issues and the like.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have no doubt that the 12 nominated Members of Parliament, when they are given these funds, will handle them in the same manner that we handle the CDF. However, it is important, so that we do not confuse Kenyans who will be waiting to draw from these funds - that the Minister tables in this House a list showing the nominated Member plus the interest group they represent. At that time, when the money is disbursed, that particular interest group can go to that particular nominated Member. Otherwise, just leaving it in a blanket manner will open it up to abuse.
Order, Dr. Khalwale! Do not attempt to answer your own question.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have taken the comments by the hon. Dr. Khalwale. As I said, the rules and regulations are being developed and will be tabled before this very House for approval. They should include some of the issues that he is raising.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is very important that we scrutinise these rules before the funds are disbursed. We know that nominated Members of Parliament are actually dealing with interest groups who are not catered for elsewhere. When will these rules be tabled in the House?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I said, the rules are being developed. Before any disbursement is made, those rules will be tabled before this House for debate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance clarify to this House, the real position as the so called interest groups are already represented by sitting Members of Parliament. Why can this money not be channelled through CDF funds, so that CDF can take care of these interest groups?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I said, nominated Members of Parliament are really supposed to represent a national constituency. Not to say that Members of
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I find it very difficult to comprehend what the Minister is talking about here because things like HIV/AIDS are taken care of by another relevant authority. The interest of youth groups is also taken care of by the Government. Does he not think this will be a duplication of the same?
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Member in order to mislead the House when the Constitution itself provides that nominated Members shall represent special interest groups?
Order! That is out of order because the Member asked a question. He did not make a statement. So, it is for the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance to give an appropriate response.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the fact that monies were allocated, if we are to allocated a little bit more to these vulnerable groups, I do not think it hurts anybody. As I said, it is still subject to the approval of this House.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Minister tell us how he will ensure that all regions will benefit from these amounts which will be allocated to Nominated Members of Parliament? For the first time since 1963, Ukambani has had no nominated MP; thanks to ODM-Kenya. What will he do to make sure that this region which has no nominated Member benefits?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I said, a nominated Member of Parliament is not supposed to represent constituencies, but a national constituency. I am sure that constitutes also include parts of Ukambani. But as I said, the rules and regulations shall be tabled for debate before this House. Some of those comments that the hon. K. Kilonzo has raised should and must be included.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, when the Minister presented his Budget here on 11th of June, he talked about economic stimulus and specifically he said that the economic stimulus package will go through line Ministries. These special interest groups are represented by line Ministries. Why did the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance not see it fit to allocate these monies also through the line Ministries as he did with the economic stimulus package? Why did he see it fit to give it as pocket money to the nominated Members of Parliament?
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order! The Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance has the ability to respond to that.
Proceed, Mr. Kenyatta.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is not pocket money. This is money that belongs to the Kenyan taxpayer. These are monies that shall and would be---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance in order to deny the obvious because he has given out money without rules which he says will be developed? Is that not equal to saying he is giving pocket money to nominated Members of Parliament? Why is he denying the obvious?
Order! As I see, that is a question. Mr. Minister, do not respond to that unless you feel obliged.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I repeat that these monies are not pocket monies. These are taxpayersâ money and the Nominated Members are accountable, not just to this Parliament, but to the people of the Republic of Kenya. Once the rules and regulations are in place and tabled before this House and deliberated, they should include what this money shall be used for and how they shall be used by the relevant hon. Members.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance to complete answering this Question without disclosing that he is aware that the Budget of the National Assembly must come from the Parliamentary Service Commission and nobody else?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, like I said, what we have is a provision that can be approved or deleted by this very same House.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security the following Question by Private Notice. What is the legality and viability of the newly created districts, in view of the recent judgment by the Kisii Resident Judge declaring them illegal?
Where is the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security?
Order, hon. Members! We thought that the Minister or one of his Assistant Ministers will be here this afternoon but, unfortunately, they are not here. But like I indicated yesterday, there was an incident in Samburu that has cost 33 lives of Kenyans and the Minister has been away leading an operation to redress that matter. So, this Question will have to be deferred to Tuesday, next week. I am sorry, Dr. Khalwale.
Next Question by the hon. Member for Sigor! Is the hon. Member not here? His Question is dropped!
Mr. Speaker, Sir---
Order, Mrs. Noor! You were late; we have called this Question out twice and you must tender an explanation as to why you were not present to ask this Question. Otherwise, you are out of order and I will take action immediately!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I apologize for coming late. I was caught up in a jam. I do apologize honestly.
That is fair enough! Proceed and ask your Question, Mrs. Noor; do not be intimidated!
asked the Minister of State for Special Programmes:- (a) whether she is aware that there are internally displaced persons affected by drought in 1992 and floods in 1997 who are currently living in the outskirts of Garissa Town; and, (b) what plans she has to resettle and compensate the IDPs in line with Vision 2030.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) I am aware of the Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs) who were affected by the drought in 1992 and those affected by floods in 1997 and are currently living in the outskirts of Garissa Town. (b) The current resettlement program being undertaken by the Government focuses on the IDPs resulting from the post 2007 election violence. However, once funds are allocated to settle all IDPs then, those who were displaced by the drought in 1992 and those affected by floods in 1997 currently living in the outskirts of Garissa Town will be settled alongside other IDPs who may be living in similar situations across the country.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to take this chance to thank the Assistant Minister for acknowledging that there are IDPs living in the peripheries of Garissa Town and who were affected by the drought in 1992 and by the floods in 1997. Could the Assistant Minister explain why it has taken long for these IDPs to be resettled? The answer given is that once funds are available, those IDPs and other IDPs will be resettled. Mr. Assistant Minister, these people are suffering. What immediate measures are you putting in place to address this issue, particularly their shelter, food and several other issues?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as far as food is concerned, we do provide food regularly, just like any other ordinary citizens all over the country to ensure that Kenyans are provided with enough food whenever need arises.
As to what action we are taking to ensure that funds will be availed, Mr. Speaker, Sir, the current Fund which we are using to resettle the IDPs was created through a
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Government was able to find funds to resettle the IDPs that were affected after the crisis we had during the last General Election. Now, we are being told that the IDPs in Garissa will only be settled after funds are available. IDPs are IDPs, regardless of the cause of the displacement. If the Government is able to find funds for the IDPs displaced after the post election violence, are the IDPs in Garissa lesser Kenyans than the other Kenyans? Can the funds not be available for them?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do agree with my friend, hon. Chachu and, indeed, the rest of the hon. Members who spoke. It is true; IDPs are IDPs, regardless of the situation that occasioned the displacement of the IDPs. However, the magnitude of the post election violence was too much. I think that is what occasioned the Government to quickly set up that fund. We are addressing this situation and I have similar situations in my own constituency. So, I agree with the hon. Members and we are moving with speed to ensure that the plight of these IDPs will be addressed.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, while the Assistant Minister admits that the plight of the IDPs in this community has been the same for the last 17 years, it is really very disappointing. What has the Ministry or the Government been doing to allow the IDPs to access education and health care for the last 17 years? Could the Assistant Minister specifically indicate to us what the Ministry has been doing about this area?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, my Ministry has not been in existence for the last 17 years, as the hon. Member is saying. However, the Government has been able to allow or provide education and health facilities for the affected IDPs in whichever part of the country, just like the rest of the citizens of this nation.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The IDPs in Garissa have been affected for the last 17 years. These people are given rations, as the Assistant Minister has said, but that ration is not adequate and it is not serving them properly. What immediate measures is the Assistant Minister taking to ensure that these IDPs are provided with adequate rations?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the food situation generally in the country is bad and, indeed, it is worsening. So, what the hon. Member is saying is true. We are trying to see how we can increase food rations to many parts of the country, that have been hard hit by drought, and not only in Garissa. Equally, the people affected in Garissa, such as the ones he has mentioned, will be catered for adequately.
Let us move on to Mr. ole Lankasâ Question!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the third time, I beg to ask Question No.420.
asked the Minister for Transport:- (a) how many airstrips there are in the Mara as well as their respective locations and capacities; and, (b) whether the Government could consider upgrading and modernising Narok Airstrip to serve the entire Southern Rift Region.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, first and foremost, I would like to apologise to the Chair and the House for arriving here late. I was attending to matters relating to an air accident which occurred this week. I am, however, ready to answer the Question.
Proceed Mr. Minister! That is a satisfactory explanation.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) The Mara ecosystem has a total of 40 airstrips with Narok having 34 airstrips while Trans Mara has six. I hereby table the matrix which indicates the location and capacity of each airstrip since it will take long to give the details for all the 40 airstrips.
(b) Narok Airstrip is centrally located and is the alternate airstrip for air traffic flying to the Maasai Mara Game Reserve and neighbourhoods. The establishment of airstrips and subsequent maintenance is guided by various factors such as:- (i) frequency of use; (ii) geographical spread; (iii) remoteness of communication facilities; (iv) economic potential; (v) development needs; (vi) availability of funds; (vii) interest from private operators; (viii) emergency access; (ix) National security and other strategic reasons. Based on analysis which takes into account the aforementioned factors, we shall consider upgrading the facility.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank the Minister for his answer. However, he has not stated the capacity of Narok Airstrip and its current physical state.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I have said earlier on, there was no specific airstrip in Narok that was mentioned when the hon. Member talked about Narok. We do
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Minister has said that he has treated my Question generally, but if you look at part âbâ of his answer, he has talked about Narok Airstrip as being centrally located. So, he cannot say that it is in the general list of airstrips in the Maasai Mara.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was responding to part âaâ of the Question. However, on part âbâ of the Question, it is true that the airstrip has a dimension of 1,830 metres by 40metres. This is a grass airstrip that is operated by the Government of Kenya under the District Commissioner (DC) and the Kenya Police. The runway is rough and requires upgrading and gravelling. I confirm that once we do a thorough analysis under the factors that I have already mentioned, we will spread bitumen on the airstrip.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Minister has told this House that there are 40 airstrips in the vicinity of Narok which is the home of the Maasai Mara Game Reserve and the endangered animals could be affected by the noise from the 40 airstrips. Does the Minister have any requirement that anybody who wants to establish an airstrip must carry out an Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) before the airstrip is commissioned?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, these are airstrips that are used by very small aircraft. Those airstrips have been in existence for more than 30 years on the average and it appears as if the animals are used to the noise made by those aircraft. Wild animals are attracted to the airstrips for tourists to view them.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wonder why the Minister finds it necessary to have 40 airstrips within the same vicinity as opposed to having maybe one or two which are fully developed to the extent that they can serve the public reasonably.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will be prepared if hon. Members of Parliament from the area and the local authority recommend to me that they have only one or three airstrips. That will not be a problem. However, as I have said earlier on, there are some factors we consider before we license airstrips. I have read them out, but I will repeat them. These factors are:- (i) frequency of use; (ii) geographical spread; (iii)remoteness of communication facilities; (iv) economic potential; (v) development needs; (vi) availability of funds; (vii) interest from private operators; (viii) emergency access; (ix) national security and other strategic reasons. This was done long before some of us got interested in politics. The rationale was established and justified unless the leaders want me to consider otherwise.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I said earlier on, the answer that the Minister has given is full of hope. Could the Minister attempt to give the time frame? This is because the last part of the answer says that he will take into account the
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the earliest that can be done will be in the 2010/2011 Financial Year. This is because we are already committed in this financial year.
Let us move on to Mr. Mwathiâs Question!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to apologise for coming late because I was attending to matters relating to the welfare of staff of Parliament.
Fair enough. You can proceed!
asked the Minister for Education:- (a) to state the criteria used to select schools to benefit from the School Feeding Programme (SFP) in Arid and Semi Arid areas; and, (b) why no schools in Ndeiya Division in Limuru Constituency benefitted from the programme, considering that the division is in a semi-arid area.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also apologise for coming late. I have looked at the answer I was given and I have not had time to examine it properly. I am not satisfied with the answer and I communicated to the hon. Member that we need to provide a more comprehensive answer at a later stage.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, indeed, we have consulted and we have agreed to defer the Question until next week so that we can have an adequate answer.
It is ordered that the Question is placed on the Order Paper on Tuesday, next week! Let us move on to the next Order!
Order, Minister for Industrialization! Just hold your horses!
Hon. Members, we have two Ministerial Statements to be delivered this afternoon, beginning with the Minister for Transport.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on Wednesday, 9th September, 2009, the Member of Parliament for Rarieda Constituency, Hon. Nicholas
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to state that Jet-Link Aviation is a Kenyan registered company that operates both international and domestic schedule services, among others. The airline has Air Service Licence No.0627, which is valid up to 14th February, 2010. The company has a valid Air Operator Certificate No.184 and Approved Maintenance Organisation Certificate No.K/AMO/L/034. The company has a staff complement of 256 comprising of 32 pilots, 20 engineers, ten technicians and 194 other staff comprising of 240 Kenyans and 40 foreigners, who are seven pilots and seven engineers. The company has a fleet of 6 aircraft, details of which I wish to table in the House. Jet-Link Aviation does not operate any aircraft manufactured in the Eastern bloc. The CRJ aircraft is manufactured in Canada. The Fokker 28 aircraft is manufactured in the Netherlands. The BAE146 aircraft is from the United Kingdom. The circumstances, under which two flights aborted on 7th and 8th September, 2009 are as follows. On 7th September, 2009, a Fokker 28 aircraft, registration Flight JO357, boarded passengers for the afternoon flight to Eldoret, at 4.00 p.m. and experienced a return-to- base incident. During taxing, the pilot encountered abnormally low taxing speed and returned to the Parking Bay and disembarked passengers. On operation, the aircraftâs brakes were found to be binding. After about one hour, arrangements were made to fly the passengers to Eldoret on another aircraft. Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the same day, BAE146 aircraft, registration Flight JO757 took off from Jomo Kenyatta International Airport (JKIA) to Kisumu at 5.00 p.m. and landed back at JKIA at 5.27 p.m. After take-off, the Captain noticed a difference of speed indication between that of the Captain and the First Officer. Due to safety consideration, the Captain decided to return to base and requested the Air Traffic Control for clearance and briefed the passengers. Upon landing, the aircraft was inspected and the fault traced to a defective airspeed indicator. On 8th September, 2009, a Fokker 28 aircraft, Flight J0853, failed to leave. This was not an aborted take-off by definition. The passengers had boarded the aircraft for the morning flight to Eldoret, at 7.45 a.m. However, during the engine start, the Captain noticed unusually low pressure indication, and the engine start was discontinued. The passengers were disembarked. Jet-Link engineers solved the problem expeditiously and the flight to Eldoret resumed without further problems. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the two incidents that occurred on 7th September, 2009 were reported by Jet-Link Aviation to the Kenya Civil Aviation Authority (KCAA) within the stipulated 42 hours time-frame. The incident of 8th September was spotted internally as required by the Airlineâs internal quality system. Finally, with regard to the Airlineâs flight safety audits on Jet-Linkâs aircrafts, I wish to report that as per statutory requirement, each aircraft operating in Kenya must have a valid Certificate of Airworthiness from the KCAA before it can be used for public
Could you seek clarifications, Eng. Gumbo?
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. First of all, allow me to start by thanking the Minister for the timely response and for dealing with the matter with the seriousness it deserves. However, I notice that in addressing the issues that I had raised, the Minister has not talked about the safety precautions being taken to avoid a recurrence of the incidents. He has also not stated â which to me is fundamental â whether Jet-Link, indeed, has an anchor at JKIA, and if they do not, how they maintain their aircraft. The Minister has also not stated what steps Jet-Link Aviation is taking to compensate the passengers. This is also a fundamental matter, because it touches on the rights of passengers. Mr. Speaker, Sir, lastly, the Minister misquoted me. All I said in the my request for the Ministerial Statement was that Jet-Link Aviation did receive an aircraft from a former Eastern bloc country. I did not say that it was made there. What I wanted to know was whether the particular aircraft was certified by the KCAA as airworthy to be used in Kenya. Having said that, I want to seek the following clarifications from the Minister. Airports in all the countries of the world levy what we call âPassenger Taxâ. The main reason for levying this tax is to make passengers to contribute towards maintenance of facilities at airports. Facilities at airports include ground facilities and facilities for navigation. In Kenya, ground facilities are maintained by the Kenya Airports Authority
Eng. Gumbo, this is time for you to seek clarification on the Ministerial Statement delivered! It is not time for debate or arguments, or time for you to give an opinion, professional as you are doing!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Minister clarify why in Kenya, it is the Kenya Airports Authority (KAA) and not the Kenya Civil Aviation Authority (KCAA) which collects the passenger tax?
Secondly, he knows very well that the process of landing involves both instruments and the tarmac. Could he clarify why in Kenya, whereas the KCAA is the one that has the biggest responsibility for landing, why is it that the KAA is the one that collects the landing fees and not the KCAA?
Finally, there appears to be a deliberate effort in this country to under-capacitate the KCAA. In whose interest is this?
Anybody else interested in a clarification on this one?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would also like to seek clarification on Jet-link. The experience we have had is that Jet-link was fueling when the customers were lining up to enter the aircraft. Is it really safe for passengers to be next to an aircraft as it is being fueled considering that jet fuel is very flammable? That is the experience we had because they fueled the aircraft when we were queuing to enter into the Jet-link aircraft.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to ask the Minister who was my mathematics teacher why the Civil Aviation equipment has not been upgraded lately.
Mr. Minister, you may now respond.
Order, Mr. Mwatela. Do you want to seek for a clarification?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
I am afraid you cannot. You are an Assistant Minister. These Ministers speak for you. Order, you cannot.
Respond, Mr. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for prevailing on my colleague Assistant Minister from making a point of order. Maybe it was a point of information. We should have contributed to this.
The issue that Eng. Gumbo asked for clarification deserves another Ministerial Statement. It is extremely broad. It is all in here in the long statement which would have taken about 15 minutes to read, but I am ready to present it as another Ministerial Statement. It is a very important subject.
Mr. Minister, what you could do is to table your detailed Statement in addition to the documents that you have tabled, so that the hon. Member has time to peruse it. If he still thinks there are further areas where he wants to interrogate, then we will grant him time to do so, another time.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will do just that. Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the brief questions that I have been asked, there is a clear division in responsibility between the KAA and the KCAA. The KAA does the infrastructure and management of the airport on the ground. Whatever is payable to them relates to the activities on the ground. The KCAA is in charge of the safety of our skies and whatever fees are to be paid as coded by the International Civil Aviation Organisation remain payable to the KCAA. There has been no conflict in the functions of the two and it is the practice internationally.
As regards Jet-link fueling an aircraft on the runway, this is an issue that I have just heard. I have no information on this issue. It is a serious matter and I will investigate and report accordingly alongside the Statement that I will make for Eng. Gumbo if he does not find the details that I shall table here, comprehensive enough.
Finally, kindly allow me to hear the question for Eng. Rege again.
Eng. Rege, could you repeat your clarification?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to ask the Minister again, who was my mathematics teacher to tell this House when the equipment of the control tower which is run by the Civil Aviation Authority will be upgraded to the most modern equipment?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to thank Eng. Rege for recognizing that I taught him pure mathematics and applied mathematics when he was a student many years back. He was a brilliant student and he passed with straight As. He will give you details because I did not want to divulge it; it makes me look older than what I am supposed to be. He will give you details. He is not the only one I taught here. There are two others.
Order, Mr. Minister. Address the Chair.
Proceed, Mr. Minister.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, last year we conducted an audit of the equipment that must be upgraded and we floated a tender internationally. The tender was won by two companies; one from Italy and another one from France. These companies are now in the process of delivering their equipment and by the end of the year, we shall have fully modernized our air navigation equipment in the country.
Fair enough! Eng. Gumbo, you will have access to that Statement. If you have further issues, then we will give you time at a suitable opportunity.
Most, obliged, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Hon. Members, we will take one more Statement which is urgent; an emergency that has arisen from the Minister for Livestock Development.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to be very brief, to let this House and the nation at large know that there has been some news about cattle deaths in a holding ground near the Kenya Meat Commission (KMC).
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have just come back from that holding ground. From the onset, I would like to be very clearly understood that these are animals bought by the Government for off-take. These are animals which we decided as the Government to take the loss and cushion livestock farmers of the losses that they are incurring currently.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, at this time, livestock farmers are faced with a major challenge. Some of them who had up to 500 animals have had their stock reduced to about 50 or even 10 animals. Some of them have only been left with the sticks that they use to look after their animals.
The Government has, therefore, decided to buy those animals and allow the livestock farmers to sell to us those animals that they think will die today, tomorrow, next week or any time before the rains come. These are pregnant animals, old animals or animals that are weak because of lack of water and pasture. Therefore, we have taken these animals to a holding ground in Athi River. It is not at the KMC.
I want to be very clear that these animals are not at the KMC; they are at a holding ground belonging to the Kenya Portland Cement. They are being held there and being given hay and water. Some of them die while we are buying them. I would like the country to know that for every dying animal, a farmer is given Kshs8,000. Therefore, we have cushioned that farmer to the tune of Kshs8,000. Mr. Speaker, Sir, what was seen in the newspapers is a very sorry situation. This is the sorry situation livestock farmers are facing right now in this country. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I had a crisis meeting at the Kenya Meat Commission (KMC) and we have so far off-taken livestock from 24 districts within 14 days. About 11,000 animals have been off-taken and 7,000 are currently at the holding ground. About 1,500 have died either at the market, en route or at the holding ground. Of course there are shortcomings because the matter is urgent. We are trying to save and buy the livestock as quickly as possible so that the losses are to the Government and not to the farmer. Therefore, we are off-taking a large number at the same time because the crisis is very serious. We found some shortcomings. For example, at the market place, there is no hay or fodder for the animals as they wait to be transported. That weakens them further and we have put into place a system to deal with that. There has also been a backlog at KMC but it must be understood that it is because of the nature of animals that we are buying. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the business of KMC is to supply the market with quality meat. I would like to assure all Kenyans and the House that the meat sold is got from ranches and other farmers who meet the minimum quality requirement by the KMC. Therefore, Kenyans are assured that even those animals that are bought through the off-take programme that do not meet the minimum quality requirement are not slaughtered. At the market place, there is a veterinary officer to vet the animals. There are those that are sick. However, being thin is not equal to being sick. It is just the reduction of flesh and fat. Those that are not sick are taken.
Order, Minister! You were allowed five minutes but now you are doing minute number nine!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, with your permission, I would like to say that vaccination is accompanying this off-take programme. I am sure the Members of Parliament who represent pastoralist areas are aware that the programme is on-going and those who have not been reached will be reached within the course of the month because we are making it an emergency programme. Thank you for giving me the chance.
I will allow three clarifications beginning with Dr. Nuh!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, while appreciating the efforts by the Minister to cushion farmers, it is understood that the off-take programme is taking place when the farmers deliver the animals to KMC. Could the Minister consider the request by many Members of Parliament; that you do the actual purchasing from the ground rather than purchasing when delivered?
Order, Minister! Please, take notes!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am taking notes.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank the Minister for the good gesture the Government has put in place, trying to cushion farmers for losses owing to the drought. However, could the Minister confirm that they will also buy sheep, goats and chicken from farmers?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, while we thank the Government for this intervention, drought will always come. Certainly this Ministry has learnt that there are challenges when we have only one abattoir at KMC. What is the Ministry doing to have abattoirs in other regions so that if drought occurs, they can buy the cows from those areas, slaughter them and minimize loses?
Order, hon. Members! Avoid being repetitive.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, while we appreciate the initiative taken by the Ministry, could the Minister consider that districts which have sold their animals can be allowed to sell for the second time because the impact is too little, considering the number of animals that have already been sold?
The Chairman of the Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Co- operatives will be the last one to seek clarification!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Minister says that Kshs8, 000 is given to farmers for compensation per animal. This is public money. Why can they not slaughter the animals in Wajir and get them processed for feed or something else? You could also have mass killings there instead of exposing the whole nation of Kenya to bad images of animals dying at Athi River.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I appreciate the response by Members. The off-take programme is happening at the markets. The Government pays for transport. I want to make that very clear. That is the answer to the question by Dr. Nuh. It is at the location or district headquarters depending on the size. Arrangements are made by the District Livestock Officers and District Veterinary Officers. There is the issue of sheep, goats and chicken. If we had the funds, we could buy all these. However, you will realize that sheep and goats browse. The drought affects cattle more than sheep, goats and camels. This is because cattle can only graze and grass is unavailable. This exposes them to deaths. The animals that are now dying in large numbers are not goats and sheep but the cattle. That is why we are directing our attention to the cattle. Chicken run around and even take care of âhuman whateverâ. They can, therefore, survive better. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the issue of satellite abattoirs is a very good one. It is a wrong idea to have a meat factory in Nairobi when we have tea factories in tea farms and coffee factories in coffee farms. That is a misplaced thing. We now have satellite abattoirs coming up in areas in like Isiolo and Garissa. There is already one at Mombasa and Lokichoggio. We intend to increase these numbers in areas where livestock are, so that we bring factories closer to the raw materials. The issue of slaughtering animals is very important. We are now slaughtering 10 per cent of the animals at the buying point. But, today, I have announced that we should increase that to 20 per cent. In actual fact, we can increase that percentage where veterinary or livestock officers on the ground feel that the animals cannot arrive in good shape. They should be slaughtered in the areas that they are being bought.
Order hon. Members. We will now take statements! What is it Mr. Ole Lankas? It must be a point of order. That is because we are short of time.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Minister has attempted to address the economics of this problem. But my point of Order is: While he is talking of the handling of the problem at the site, he has not talked about the issue of morality. What is happening there is that we have seen live animals being loaded into tipper lorries. We have seen them being knocked down by tractors ferrying other dead animals. Is it morally right to mix live animals with dead ones? The Minister has avoided to address that issue?
That, to me, is a question. But since you do not have a lot of experience, I will take that kindly. Otherwise, I would have ordered you to withdraw for the rest of this Sitting. That is why I had cautioned you that you must be sure it is a point of order. I am afraid it is not. At best, it is a question. At worst, I cannot say. Minister for Industrialization!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on 10th September, 2009, the Member for Mutito, Mr. K. Kilonzo, sought a Ministerial Statement on the appointment of the Managing Director and Chief Executive of the Kenya Bureau of Standards (KEBS) and also on the letter dated 8th September, 2009 by Ambassador Francis Muthaura, PS and Secretary to the Cabinet and Head of Public Service, addressed to Prof. John Krop Lonyangapuo, Permanent Secretary in my Ministry. The same letter was copied to me and also Dr. Isahakia, who is the PS in the Office of the Prime Minister. It was also copied to Prof. Nick Wanjohi, Personal Secretary to the President. Mr. Speaker, Sir, Mr. K. Kilonzo wanted to know the status and facts surrounding the appointment and subsequent dismissal of the Managing Director of KEBS. He also wanted a clarification on the said letter dated 8th September, 2009 relieving Engineer Mangâeli of his duties as the Managing Director in public interest. KEBS is a body corporate responsible for standardization and has powers to enter into contracts with any person, among other powers. It performs its functions under the direction of the National Standards Council. The appointment of the Managing Director is done by the Minister on the advice of the Council. The procedure for the appointment of the Managing Director of KEBS is laid down by Section 5 of the Standards Act, Cap 486 of the Laws of Kenya, which provide that the Minister shall, on the advice of the Council, by notice in the Kenya Gazette, appoint a Managing Director of KEBS who shall be the Chief Executive of the Bureau. The council convened a special National Standards Council meeting on 31st July, 2009 to discuss the Managing Directorâs contract, which was due to expire on 31st August, 2009, as well as the issue of recruitment of a new Managing Director or reappointment of Dr. Kioko Mangâeli for another term, so as to avoid a vacuum. At that meeting, the Council set up the scope, conditions and parameters within which Dr. Mangâeliâs contract could be extended. The Council decided to audit and rate his past contract performance and set a minimum score of 75 per cent. If he achieved a score of 75 per cent, the Council would advise the Minister â that is me - to reappoint him. However, in the event he scored less than 75 per cent, then it would advise that the post be advertised. On evaluation, Dr. Mangâeli scored 86.12 per cent and the National Standards Council, on 31st July, 2009, unanimously agreed and resolved to advise the Minister that Dr. Mangâeli be reappointed as the MD for another term of three years. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I table here the evaluation report, the score sheet and what was being evaluated.
Are you not in the Government?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not the only person in the Government before the direction was issued. I am also told that there were certain issues which could be termed as being public interest, which I am not privy to.
I am afraid it has to be four clarifications beginning with the sponsor of the request, Mr. K. Kilonzo.
Mr. Minister, please, take notes!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, before I seek clarification, I want to thank the Minister for a job well done and for his honesty. I want to ask the Minister to tell this House and the country at large who is the MD of the Kenya Bureau of Standards (KEBS) as it stands now.
Secondly, I would like the Minister to clarify to this House, indeed, what âpublic interestâ is and whether Dr. Mangâeli was given time to respond to the so-called âpublic interestâ.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, again, I just want to acknowledge the honesty of the Minister. I have in my possession a letter from the Office of the Prime Minister dated 12 August, 2009 which I wish to lay on the Table.
In that letter, there is a direction to Prof. John Lonyangapuo, who is the Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Industrialization, directing him that the Government does not wish to renew or extend the tenure of both the chairman and the MD of KEBs. Therefore, writing to communicate the following instructions: That the new members of the board of directors be appointed in respect of KEBS. A new chairman of the board of directors be appointed in respect of KEBS and a new MD for KEBS be appointed through, I do not know, a public process yet there is a clear provision that, first of all, there is no board of directors according to the Standards Act, Cap.496. There is a council established under Section 6. Secondly, it is the Minister who has all the powers to do the process of appointing. The letter is signed by Dr. Mohammed Isahakhia, Permanent Secretary and copied to Amb. Muthaura. The clarification I want to seek from the Minister is: Is it proper that the Office of the Prime Minister can be used to give, first of all, false instructions â there is no board of directors â to be effected by a permanent secretary? Is it proper that an office such as that can be utilized to circumvent the existing law? What action is the Minister going to take against that civil servant who is intimidating a Minister like him who is properly executing his duties?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I just wish to seek a very short clarification from the Minister, arising from the reports which have been coming out in the media as regards the appointment of Dr. Mangeli. I want the Minister to clarify if the Kenya Association of Manufacturers (KAM) and the USA Ambassador, representing the American investors have petitioned the President as regards to the mismanagement of the KEBS---
Oh! The US Ambassador?
You are not the Minister! Mr. Speaker, Sir, protect me from these guys!
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the hon. Member in order to seek clarification on an issue that is not from the Ministerâs Statement?
Order! The Minister is equal to the task; I am sure he will respond!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in any case, it is in the public domain! Are those the issues that the Minister is calling issues of concern that pertain to this appointment of Dr. Mangâeli?
Mr. C. Kilonzo! And that should really rest the matter, but gauging the interest in the matter, I will allow a second round after the Minister has responded.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, for a PS in the Office of the Prime Minister to write a letter to the Minister is taking us to the days of âI received orders from above!â We want to thank the Minister for the position he has taken but my questions are very clear. The law is very clear: It was meant to ensure who advises the Minister. Could the Minister assure this House that he will follow the law and take the advice from the council? Secondly, when the Office of the Prime Minister realized that the current council will go ahead and appoint Dr. Mang'eli, they decided also to get rid of it? Finally, I wish to lay on the Table of the House a performance review from the year 2004 to 2009. When Eng. Mangâeli took over, as the Minister rightly said, they had a deficit of Kshs300 million. Today, according to this report, we are talking about Kshs1.2 billion. I am just curious. Does that mean that now that there is money at the KEBS they want to get hold of the money and do the usual?
Order, Mr. Ruto! The Minister will respond and then we will do another round of three.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, hon. C. Kilonzo has raised an issue regarding who the current MD of KEBS is. For the time being, Eng. Mangâeli is the MD of KEBS. However, we are consulting and we have legal issues to look at before we take further action. With respect to public interest, I said that I am not privy to what public interest matters were contained in the letter of Amb. Muthaura. As you know, the Government has various sources of information and unless I am told exactly what public interest led to that letter being written, I would not know. The letter from the Prime Ministerâs Office, which has been laid on the Table, and which has already been read by Mr. Mungatana, directed that the MD and the Chairmanâs contracts should not be renewed. I have not received it; it was probably addressed to my PS, but was not copied to me. I have not been made aware of it. I do not think that there is anyone who is trying to intimidate me. I cannot be intimidated by anyone. However,
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to thank the Minister for his very good response that has shed a lot of light on what is happening. It is going to be unfortunate if individuals heading parastals will be removed just because someone does not want their presence, or because of some matters which Ministers are not privy to, including this one. There are institutions including the Inspectorate of State Corporations that deal with parastatals. This is not a security matter. Many times we hear people telling us of security matters; that they are not supposed to be known to many people. We want to know, as interested Kenyans and as leaders, if there is any information that touches on the KEBS from any Government institution, including the Inspectorate of State Corporations that mentions adversely this MD, so that we do not set bad precedents in this country? We would like people to work and meet their targets.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, Kenya is supposed to be a country that embraces the rule of law. The law is supreme and not the whims of an individual. Mr. Minister, what are you intending to do to ensure that the obvious interference that has been there in your Ministry and the usurpation of your powers, powers bestowed upon you by an Act, is not repeated? What are you doing about it?
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The first paragraph of the letter that was tabled by hon. Mungatana reads: âThe Government has received various complaints from the Kenya Association of Manufacturers, the Kenya Private Sector Alliance (KEPSA), the Public Procurement Oversight Authority (PPOA) and the Administration Review Board.â There was a whipping on behalf of the American Ambassador by one of the Whips. I would like the Minister to tell the House when he met those Boards? Was it before or after the evaluation? Were the complaints from the Office of the Prime Minister of the magnitude to warrant the disregard of the law? Were they of the magnitude to warrant the instructions to dismiss the Managing Director?
Hon. Members, it must end there. Minister, will you, please, make your responses?
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The hon. Member has alluded to an involvement by a foreign envoy. Indeed, hon. Midiwo leaned quite heavily along that line. It is now in our minds and on record in the HANSARD. Standing Order No.82(1) puts the responsibility of giving the House the facts on the Member who has made the allegation. Am I in order to request you to ask hon. Midiwo to lay on the Table the documents that can prove what he has said? It is these side shows and intrigues that are actually interfering with the smooth running of our institutions. Would I be in order to ask the Chair to ask hon. Midiwo to prove the accuracy of his allegations under Standing Order No.82(1)? He is responsible for the accuracy of any facts which he alleges.
Order, hon. Members! Hon. Ruto is in order because we are still on this subject. So, hon. Midiwo, can you, please, substantiate your claim?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am perplexed by the trivializing of this very big issue.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I asked the Minister for clarification on a matter that is out there in the media.
We do not know!
You do not have to know! Mr. Speaker, Sir, I asked the Minister just to clarify whether the Ambassador acted on behalf of the American investors in the country. How could that be out of order?
Order, hon. Midiwo! Indeed, I let that pass and the Minister made a response to the effect that he is not aware. If he is not aware, then the burden still rests with you to substantiate that allegation.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order! Hon. Midiwo will have to respond!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was not providing the information. I was seeking clarification and I think the difference is as clear. I never made a statement of fact.
Order! Then from what you say, you are unable to substantiate. But you are saying that you are seeking to have confirmation from the Minister. In other words, you are looking for information.
Now that you are unable to substantiate, and the Minister says that he is not aware, can you then withdraw that assertion?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think you are taking this the wrong way, kindly. Because---
Order, hon. Midiwo! Hon. Midiwo, this matter has gone on record in the HANSARD. If you want to insist that the assertions that you made are valid; that you did not make any assertion, then I will leave the matter there. But I will want to verify from the HANSARD what the record exactly is and, depending on that verification, I will be under compulsion to take appropriate action as I will deem necessary.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have no problem with that. I am clear about what I said.
Fair enough! That is what I will do.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I agree with you on the need to re-confirm from the HANSARD. But what is concerning Members is what he has just pronounced; that he disagrees with you. As you ponder over this, you should be directed by the fact that you are our Chair, your past notwithstanding. Given that it is only last week when you made a monumental ruling in this House and the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs was out there speaking in a manner that we all know he did, it is important that you direct us whether, when we are out of this House, we should not also accord you the same respect that we accord you when you are in the Chair.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I wish to seek your guidance. As clarification was being sought from the Minister, hon. Wamalwa stood up and said, and I will paraphrase his statement: âKenya is supposed to be governed under the rule of law.â For the sake of our records, is Kenya supposed to be governed under the rule of law or it is a fact that Kenya is governed under the rule of law?
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. It is quite unfortunate that the Governmentâs side has decided not to show respect to the Chair. It is just the other day that, after you made a ruling on a matter in this House, none other than the Vice- President and Minister for Home Affairs criticized your ruling outside this House. Today, again, the Chief Whip, who is now the Leader of Government Business, has answered
Hon. Midiwo, do you have anything further to say?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I just wanted to say that, if I may have said anything that is causing all this fury, I withdraw it. I withdraw that particular one which is irking hon. K. Kilonzo because he is jittery about something else. He is trying to further his tribal interests.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order! Order! Hon. Members, I can deal with some of the points that you have raised summarily.
With regard to the matter raised by Mr. Michuki, the Minister for Environment and Mineral Resources, it is clear that this country is governed in accordance with the doctrine of the rule of law. There is no doubt about that. However, what Mr. Wamalwa alluded to was that given the facts which the Minister for Industrialization has disclosed, could we really say that this Government is upholding the rule of law? So, he was not doubting that the rule of law applies in this country. However, he says that where the rule of law applies, these kind of incidences ought not to have arisen. I think that is the point the hon. Member was making.
With regard to Mr. Midiwoâs position, I still insist that I will verify from the HANSARD what that the hon. Member has said. In making my finding and giving directions on that matter, I will take into account whether or not he had any valid basis to disagree with the Chair. If he is keeping those words, obviously, he will have to live with the consequences. I can assure you that your Chair will remain firm and fearless. I do not see that I am under obligation to favour anybody. That is how I will proceed.
Hon. Members, with regard to the comments by the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs elsewhere, I was faced with those comments and the best that I could do and say was that I have endeavoured to live within my oath of office. His Excellency the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs was entitled to his opinion, which is personal. I stand by that position. I just want to reiterate to all hon. Members that I have made directions on this matter before as to what hon. Members ought to do in respect of the business which is pending and is before the House. Those of you who are straying from the rule of thumb, we will deal with you, again, fearlessly. That includes the Vice- President and Minister for Home Affairs, Ministers, Assistant Ministers and all Members of Parliament. That also includes the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs. That will remain the position. Hon. Members just watch this space!
Mr. Minister, you may respond now!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Mr. Abdirahman has asked whether this is a security matter or not. Since I do not know which public interest is in this case, I cannot say whether or not it is a security matter.
Yes, Hon. Leshomo!
Bw. Spika, ninaomba Taarifa kutoka kwa Waziri wa Utawala wa Mikoa na Usalama wa Ndani kuhusu vita vilivyotokea jana huko Samburu. Waziri anaweza kutuambia ni watu wangapi, waliopata majeraha na ni ngâombe wangapi waliokufa jana? Pia, anaweza kujulisha Bunge hili wale waliohusika walitoka upande gani? Ni hatua gani Waziri atachukua kuhakikisha kwamba usalama unapatikana huko Samburu? Hakuna kitu kibaya kama mauaji yaliyotokea jana kule Samburu.
Pia, Waziri anaweza kuliambia Bunge watoto na akina mama walikuwa na hatia gani ili wau awe kama wanyama? Tunaongea mambo yanayohusu usalama katika Bunge kila wakati lakini hatuoni hatua zikichukuliwa za kuwasaidia Wakenya kupunguza hali ya ukosefu wa usalama, hasa katika Samburu. Kama Waziri angekuwa hapa ningemuomba atoe Taarifa ya kweli ambayo inaweza kusikika na Wakenya wote.
Order! Is that the end of Ministerial requests?
The Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security, when will this Statement be ready?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on Wednesday, next week.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I had sought your permission to issue a Personal Statement under Standing Order No.76.
You can proceed. That is not a request but a Personal Statement.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to issue a Personal Statement in respect to allegations of meetings that did occur yesterday where purported deals were struck between Mau and Ringera issues.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was party to a meeting that was held yesterday at the Boulevard Hotel, at 8.30 a.m. I have permission from my colleagues to say that the
Order! Next Order!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following procedural Motion:- THAT, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order 20(2) this House resolves that the adjournment time of todayâs sitting be extended from 6.30 p.m. until the business appearing on the Order Paper is concluded.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are moving this Motion because we want to deal with the Appropriation Bill. We also want to finish with the report of the Committee on Delegated Legislation and thereafter we propose that we deal with the adjournment Motion.
With those few remarks, I beg to move.
Mr. Thuo seconded.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, since this is purely a Procedural Motion, I would like to support it. However, we are very cautious as Members of the Backbench. Much as we are given the impression that the sole intention is to make sure that we finish this urgent business, which we all support that it should be resolved, we are worried that in the recent past, there has been a lot of deal cutting, under-hand activities, backroom consultations and so on. We are hoping that nobody is scheming to ambush us.
With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to continue from where I left yesterday when I was moving this Motion on the adoption of the Report of the joint Committees on Justice and Legal Affairs and the Committee on Delegated Legislation.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, yesterday, I alluded to Standing Order No.198 from which the Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs derives its mandate and Standing Order No.197 from which the Committee on Delegated Legislation derives its mandate. I was then going ahead to give reasons why the Committees decided to have a joint meeting which is basically because the Committee on Justice and Legal affairs is the Committee that deals with the Kenya Anti Corruption Commission (KACC) while the gazette notice on which the appointments were made were deemed to be subsidiary legislation. So, the Committee decided----
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order! Order, hon. Members!
What is your point of order, Dr. Nuh!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just want to draw your attention to the fact there is so much loud consultations. We are unable to hear the Member on the Floor.
Order! Hon. Members, you need to consult in very low tones so that the hon. Member is heard.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was explaining why the two Committees opted to use the provisions of Standing Order No.185 to hold joint meetings. The Committees held two meetings. The following Members of the two Committees attended these meetings. There are: Hon. A. Abdalla, Chair for Delegated Legislation, Hon. Abdikadir Mohamed, Chair, Department Committee on Administration of Justice and Legal Affairs, hon. Milie Odhiambo, hon. George Nyamwea, hon. Olago Alouch, hon. I. Ruto, hon. Sohia Abdi Noor, hon. Philip Kaloki, hon. Mutava Musyimi, hon. Abwabu Namwamba, hon. Peter Njoroge Baiya, hon. Gitobu Imanyara, hon. K. Kilonzo, hon. Fahim Twaha, hon. Dr. J. Kones and hon. Muturi Mwangi.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you will note that the Members are 16 instead of 20 because four Members serve in both of the Committees.
From the onset, I wish to thank the Office of the Speaker and that of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the support extended to the two Committees.
Order hon. Members! The hon. Member is supposed to be heard. Order, Dr. Mwiria!
Proceed, Ms. A. Abdalla!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, finally, it is my pleasant duty and privilege on behalf of the two Committees to present and commend this report to the House for adoption. The attention of the two Committees was drawn to Gazette Notice, Volume 61, No.77, 93900 and 9301 which was laid on the Table of the House on 3rd September, 2009 by the hon. Ruto, Member of Parliament for Chepalungu. The two gazette notices were on the reappointment of the Directors and two Assistant Directors of the KACC.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the two Committees then held two meetings where they were able to hear oral presentations from the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs. The Committees also received and considered written memoranda from the International Commission of Jurists, Kenya Section and the Law Society of Kenya. Upon deliberation and consideration of the presentations, the Committees found as follows. One, that the procedure for the appointment of the Director and Assistant Directors of the KACC is set out in Section 8(3)(4)(5) of the Anti-Corruption and Economic Crimes Act, Act No.3 of 2003 and Paragraph 3 subsection (1(2) of the First Schedule of the same Act.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for the avoidance of doubt by the Members who might not have read this report, I wish to take this opportunity to read the content of Section 8(3). It says:-
âThe Director and Assistant Directors shall be persons recommended by the Advisory Board and approved by the National Assembly for appointment to their respective positionsâ.
(4) âOn the approval of a person by the National Assembly under Subsection (3) the President shall appoint the person concerned to the office in respect of which the approval was givenâ.
Sub clause 5 states that the terms and conditions of service for the Director and Assistant Director shall be determined by the Advisory Board.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order, Ms. A. Abdalla! What is your point of order, Mr. Kioni?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise on a point of order---
Under what Standing Order?
I will name the Standing Order plus the subsection. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, page three of this Report that is being presented by this Committee states that the Committee held two meetings and the minutes are appended on to the Report.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Standing Order No.181(3) reads as follows:- âA report of a select committee, together with the minutes of the proceedings of the Committee, and with such notes or record of any evidence by the Committee, as the Committee may deem fit, shall be laid on the Table of the House by the Chairperson of the Select Committee---â
This Report does not have minutes. For that reason, this Report is incomplete. It is not proper for this House to debate a Report that is incomplete, and which is completely against the Standing Orders of this House. We are talking about the rule of law. We must be guided by our own rules.
Secondly, the Report that we are discussing talks about appointment. The Kenya
Notice talks about re-appointment. This Report is not the Report that we are supposed to be discussing. Even the Motion that we have is different.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to respond to the points of order raised by the Member of Parliament for Ndaragwa. Firstly, he said that the Gazette Notice reads âRe-appointmentâ. I think he does not have a copy of the Gazette Notice, because the top reads âAppointmentâ. The inside part of it is what talks about âRe- appointmentâ. In fact, I wish to urge hon. Members that we have already discussed most of the issues they may want to raise here.
On the issue of the minutes, the Report that was laid on the Table of this House did have minutes. The one that I currently have has minutes of one of the meetings.
So, I wish to go back to the issue of whether this debate is about---
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Report that I have, which is the Report that most hon. Members have, does not have the minutes. So, we have no evidence that the recommendations contained in this Report actually took place in the meetings of the Committee. Certainly, persons could easily have come up with them.
Secondly, our Standing Orders also talk of signing of the minutes. The minutes that are appended to this Report are not signed.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. With all due respect to Hon. Kioni, I believe that the issues he is raising now are issues that should be raised during the debate on this Report because the Report has already been tabled. The Standing Order does not say that the copies to be given to hon. Members must have the minutes appended to them. What must have the minutes appended to is the copy of the
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want to bring to the attention of the Chair the fact that the hon. Member who is trying to interrupt the moving of the Motion is in breach of Standing Order No.25. You cannot interrupt debate at the point where the Mover is on the Floor. If there is a wish to adjourn this debate to a further date, a dilatory Motion must be moved in accordance with the provisions of Standing Order No.25. That stage has not been reached. Therefore, I urge you to find that we cannot interrupt this debate at this stage. It is premature. If they wish to move---
What Standing Order are you referring to?
Mr. Deputy Speaking Speaker, Sir, I am quoting Standing Order No.25.
What paragraph of Standing Order No.25?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Standing Order No.25(1), (2), (3) and (4) deal with the same issue of dilatory Motions. If the hon. Member wishes to interrupt-- -
Order, Mr. Mungatana! I do not think the hon. Member is seeking the adjournment of the debate itself. He is questioning whether the right procedure has been used in tabling the Report. This is a matter for the Chair to rule on.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. In view of the fact that the Member of Parliament for Ndaragwa, Mr. Jeremiah Kioni, has raised very serious issues, that the Report that was laid on the Table of the House may not have contained the minutes, and that the Report talks of appointment whereas the Gazette Notice talks of re-appointment, as we wait to get the Report that was tabled, I request that we move to the next Order, pending verification.
Order! Order, hon. Members! Mr. Kioni, the Report that I have does have minutes. In any case, we will allow the Mover to move and be seconded, and then you can raise the issues that you feel are pertinent.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. He interrupted my trend of thoughts on the issue of whether this Report should be debated on the basis of numerical strength. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, one side might be having the numerical strength today because it is a person from the opposite side of the Grand Coalition that they think they will be fixing. However, if we are going to deal with this matter as a matter of ensuring that the rule of law is upheld, and that we do not legislate in vain, I wish to inform my colleagues from the ODM side that tomorrow, when we come here to annul Gazette Notices of the many appointments â in fact, there are five at this point â made by ODM Ministers that are in contravention of legislation, they will not then go back to their cocoons and make it an ODM/PNU fight. So, as the Chairperson of the Committee on Delegated Legislation, I would like to urge that if hon. Members are voting on this matter, they should do so because there is a problem that we need to address. If you are going to vote for this matter because it is convenient for you, just note that we will be going on division for any debate on
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I have the honour to second this Motion. I believe the hon. gracious lady has clearly laid down the legal basis for the appointments. There is absolutely no doubt that the appointments were contrary to statutes. The straw that the other side is hanging on in terms of disappointment is the re- appointment that is mentioned in the schedule.
I just want to point out that any schedule in any Act always has the ruling section and the top of that schedule. The ruling section for this schedule is Section 8. Section 8 is very clear on the appointment procedure.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, secondly, nowhere in the schedule does it talk about the President appointing anyone. It says one may be re-appointed. Nowhere does it say it is the President that appoints.
This issue is not about the President. It is not about the Executive. It is about this House. Today, this House has a date with destiny. As to whether as a House we will uphold the rule of law, or whether we will flounder on the altar of politics every time this nation requires leadership.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the issue of Executive prerogative has been mentioned. We have been informed that this House wishes to take away powers from the Executive. No, this House has enough powers of its own without having to grab any powers from anybody.
On the issue of separation of powers, let me, first of all, say that as a fused system ourselves, we do not have a very clear system of separation of powers in this country, by law. The very fact that on the Front Bench are Members of the Executive who are also Members of Parliament; the very fact that the President and Prime Minister are elected Members of this House, that clearly shows that by law we do not have a system that is clear on separation of powers. We are closer to the system called fusion of powers.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, parliamentary systems of government have fusion of powers where the Executive resides in parliament. Then parliament is absolutely supreme. In terms of presidential system of government, you have very clear separation of powers where the Executive has very little to do with Parliament.
Order, Mr. Abdikadir! You are out of order! You are debating Order No.10 yet we are on Order No.9. The Appropriations Bill will come on its own. Right now, you are seconding the Motion that is brought by your Committee and the other Committee.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was just showing the interventions that the Committee had decided. However, I will agree with your direction. This country is undertaking a lot of reforms. These reforms have to bear fruits. The Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC) was part of the reforms introduced by the NARC Government. Parliament is right now a reformed institution. Parliament has a whole new set of Standing Orders. I beg that Ministers familiarize themselves with these Standing Orders. Parliament has a Financial Management Act in place. Parliament is free through the Parliamentary Service Commission (PSC). This is a reformed institution. It is time that Kenyans got the dividends of these reforms. If this reformed institution cannot uphold the rule of law--- This is about the rule of law. This country has to decide whether we will be under the rule of law or under the rule of man. If then this reformed institution cannot uphold the rule of law, then we are in a very dangerous institution. There will be no reason for going through all the other reforms we are talking about including reforming the Constitution. I urge this House to adopt the Report. I beg to second.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I stand to oppose this Motion I want to highlight a number of things. The first one is that the two Committees - I say this with complete respect and humility - have deliberately left out the single most important section of the Interpretation and General Provisions Act, Chapter 2. That is Section 34. I would like to ask hon.
By an Act of Parliament, hon. Michuki. That is what it says. âExcept where the context otherwise requires, any powers conferred upon Parliament by this Constitution to establish, provide for or prescribe any matter or thing shall be exercisable by Act of Parliament.â We passed Section 8 of the Anti-Corruption law and we established Third Schedule. In Section 8, we said that for an appointment, one requires recommendation from the Board. When hon. Abdikadir says that these organizations are unanimous--- I do not want to join a crowd. At that point in time under Section 8, we said that the Board recommends, Parliament approves and the President appoints. When we were dealing with the First Schedule, we said that the appointing authority, who is the President, may reappoint any person who has served as a Director or in those other positions. I dare say, without fear of contradiction, I am even ready to go to the House of Lords, and will tell the Law Lords that President Kibaki was right. Therefore, I urge anyone who differs with President Kibaki that we go and meet in the House of Lords or the Senate and interpret these laws. Let me ask something.
The Law Lords are here!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, so I hear. I want to say this with a lot of humility. The fact that Section 51 says what the Committee has quoted, it cannot apply to the circumstances here, because, as I have said, under Section 123(6), Parliament can only act through an Act of Parliament. When you pass a resolution, what that section says--- I have a lot of respect for the principle of supremacy of Parliament. That supremacy is derived from the Constitution and it is driven by law, and not by what any person may think or do. Let me give you some facts. When President Kibaki was elected President in 2002, the first thing that he did, because an impression had been created that he is not interested in fighting corruption, was that in May he made sure that we passed the Anti- Corruption law. During the same year, we also passed the Public Officer Ethics Law. To make matters worse, in December, 191 countries assembled to pass the United Nations Convention against Corruption. Kenya, under the guidance of the President, was the only country, and remains the only country, to adopt and sign this Treaty on the same day, and I lay the Convention on the Table of this House. As I speak to you right now, in addition
Order! Conclude hon. Minister!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with those many, and more issues that I would have wanted to raise, I beg to oppose.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want, on the outset, to declare my greatest respect and humility to the President. However, I cannot support the reappointment of hon. Ringera. Lawyers have argued here and I do not want to take that route. In taking this decision, not to support the reappointment of Mr. Ringera, I asked myself four questions. The first question was, during the time that Mr. Ringera served as the Director of KACC, has he been successful? The answer to my question was ânoâ. My second question was whether Mr. Ringeraâs reappointment will help in any way in fighting corruption in this country and my answer was ânoâ. Thirdly, I asked myself---
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. We have a Constitution and we all took an oath to protect it. I want to read Section 17(1) of the Constitution. I will read it again and again. It says, âThere shall be a Cabinet consisting of the President, the Vice-President and other Ministers.â Subsection 3 says, âThe Cabinet shall be collectively responsible to the National Assembly for all things done by or under the authority of the President---â
Oder! Hon. Ruto, hon. Namwamba, you are all out of order! Hon. Kioni is a Member of Parliament just as you are Members of Parliament, and he has a right to be heard. Proceed!
Thank you Mr. Deputy Speaker for that protection. I will read Subsection 3 again for them to hear. The Section reads in part that,
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I wish to seek your guidance because I want to understand the way this debate is going, so that I can internalize the issue. A section of the Constitution has just been read with regard to the collective responsibility of Cabinet Ministers. Is it constitutional to allow any Member who is in that category to infringe the Constitution, which he has vowed to defend?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I just want to draw your attention to the fact that the same Constitution guarantees the freedom of expression and conscience. In the Oath of Allegiance, a Minister or a Member of Parliament swears allegiance to the President and the Constitution. The Constitution is greater because it sets up the institution of the Presidency. Therefore, if the Constitution is infringed, as an act of loyalty, a Minister must tell the President. Any Member must tell the President. Is it in order to try and intimidate the loyal servants of this country who want to call a spade a spade?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I rise to seek your guidance on this matter. It is a fact that the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs tabled a list of people who have been investigated by Justice Ringera. Would it be in order for a person who is on that list to contribute to this debate without declaring his interest that he has actually been investigated? Before he says anything, he is not being genuine.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, can I proceed?
Order, Mr. Musila! The Chair is going to take a few clarifications in terms of points of order.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. It is obvious that some Members of the Cabinet in the Coalition Government do not seem to realize that this is Parliament and not the Executive. They are attempting to sort out the indiscipline in the Government inside Parliament. These are two separate institutions and this is the institution of the National Assembly. We are Parliament and if there is indiscipline in the Government, the Ministers should go back and sort it out where they should sort it out. Is it in order for them to drag their indiscipline to the Floor of the House?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. There has been an attempt to mislead the House on this issue of collective responsibility. I want to be heard round and clear. Indeed, today, I was very proud of hon. Kosgey because of the Statement that he made in this House. This is not a House of fools, but a House of hon. Members of Parliament. If we insist that this is going to be a House of fools, then we are in the wrong forum and the wrong arena.
Order, hon. Orengo! The word âfoolsâ is not parliamentary language! Use parliamentary language!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am making a supposition âifâ, but I hope that nobody supposes that this is a House of fools.
I am sure you can find a better word than that!
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would even say that it is not a House of idiots! That is a term that Churchill, who was a great Parliamentarian, used in the House of Commons. It is wrong to read the Constitution selectively. If you want to read the Constitution, read it out in full, so that what you are saying can be understood. If you read Section 17(3) and leave out Sub-Sections 1 and 2, it does not make any sense. In fact, the hierarchy of those sections is not by accident that what hon. Kioni has been reading is an inferior provision of Section 17. The superior sections of Section 17 are Sub-Sections 1 and 2 and I want to read them very loudly.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am on a point of order.
He is on a point of order!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, now you can understand how he does--- If he does not know what a point of order is, how can he understand the Constitution? Section 17(1) says:- âThere shall be a Cabinet consisting of the President, the Vice-President and other Ministers---â. If I may just pause there, a Cabinet consisting of the President is a creature that does not exist in the Constitution. So, do not take Ministers for granted. They are there by dint of Section 17 of the Constitution and not to sit as passengers in the Cabinet. Section 17(2) says:- âThe function of the Cabinet shall be to aid and advise the President in the Government of Kenya.â So, if the President requires me to be collectively responsible for his decisions, it is presupposed that my advice must be sought. But if the advice of hon. Musila, who I normally call the Provincial Commissioner (PC) because I respect him for being a good PC--- If he was acting by not interpreting the Constitution and the law clearly, he would be in a lot of trouble. But he was a good PC. The collective responsibility requires consultations. In this Parliament, we cannot act alone. We must act together. Finally, my point is this: I am a Member of this Parliament just as other Cabinet Ministers are hon. Members. My first duty is to defend and protect the Constitution as a whole. Not selectively like those who are living in the past when there was an imperial Presidency and when the word âPresidentâ is mentioned, they feel that God Almighty has come back to earth. That is not the position in Kenya today. It is a Government by the Cabinet.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. There is one thing that I think hon. Orengo needs to familiarize himself with. If you look at the HANSARD, I have read Section 17 in full, so that we do not advance idiotic arguments. Secondly, I share---
Order, hon. Kioni! Order, hon. Members! Hon. Members, the law cuts in both ways. There is no selective application of the law. When the Chair keeps on insisting and telling Ministers and Backbenchers to conduct themselves in a dignified manner, it presumes and presupposes that in the event that, that is allowed to continue, it will become a free for all. So, hon. Kioni, I did not take kindly the language that was used by hon. Orengo before you. I will not take kindly yours either. Please, hon. Members, conduct yourselves in a dignified manner. Proceed, hon. Kioni.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I withdraw and apologize for that. I only did it because, as senior as he is, he thought that it is important to use it. Having said that, I share the sentiments of hon. Ruto; that the purpose of this section in the Constitution is to ensure that Members of the Cabinet do not to bring their disagreements to the Floor of the House. They need to come here with one voice. In the event that they do not agree with the goings on in the Cabinet, you have a very soft option: Resign and come to the Back Bench. That is the spirit of this provision.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Mr. Kioni has repeatedly suggested that the Cabinet is disagreeing here on a matter which they have agreed on somewhere. I would have thought that they had some facts to suggest that on this matter, which we are now discussing, there was a Cabinet decision and that the Cabinet decision says that we will re-appoint â in the words of the notice â Justice Ringera, and that we have now come here to oppose that position. If they did that, we would have understood it. However, to suggest that merely because I am a Cabinet Minister, I must support whatever is done---
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order! He is on a point of order! What is your point of order, hon. Kajwang?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, my point of order is that although that section has been read out, it does not seem to give us the foundation on which it wants to stand. The foundation would have been that this was a Cabinet decision and, therefore, all Cabinet Ministers are bound by it. However, that foundation is lacking. He merely says that when you are a Minister, you are bound by any action done by a Minister. So, if I were to do something wrong, I would expect all Cabinet Ministers to support me, merely because they are also Cabinet Ministers. It could be absurd and that is the point. He should withdraw that point.
Order! Order! Mr. Kioni did seek the direction of the Chair. Indeed, it is sad that our moods of interpretation of the law and the Constitution changes with our political expediencies. The Chair has a responsibility to interpret or state the Constitution to the best of its ability, conscience and perception. Indeed, it is a fact that the Chair says that Ministers are supposed to--- As Mr. Orengo had put it, there
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, much obliged.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
What is your point of order, hon. Nyamweya?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you have ruled and I have listened very attentively. I am a member of the Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs. You have just ruled that you are not going to infringe on the Cabinet and whatever they have done. Would also that ruling, therefore, apply to members of the Committee that if we now feel--- What is on the Floor is no longer a question of whether the procedure of reappointing Justice Ringera and the two Assistants was correct or not. The mood now as you can see is, let us settle scores. The other day, we got rid of the Electoral Commission without even following the tribunal----
What is your point of order, hon. Nyamweya?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, even though we did not record our difference in the Committee, we will now differ with the Committee because the Motion is being driven in a different way.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I continue. I said--
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. You have just made a ruling that constitutionally members of Cabinet should, under the collective responsibility, not debate against the Government. However, you have cited the J.M. Kariukiâs case. Now you have thrown this House into disarray. Is it that we are going to follow the law and the Constitution or the precedence of this House? Nobody has died today, so therefore, these people can go back to Cabinet. The Cabinet can convene and come up with one collective decision, so that it comes here with one voice.
Order! Hon. Members, as the tradition and for the stability of countries, traditions have been--- At the time of J.M. Kariuki, Ministers were moved by their own conscience and opposed the Government on the Floor of the House. The Executive did what every Executive should do. The Ministers were sacked. The Chair will not play the role of the Executive for the Executive.
Order! I say this with a heavy heart because it is not for the tradition. I have done it before and I would have ruled that the Minister cannot oppose the Government on the Floor of the House, but be that as it may, proceed!
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I had sought some guidance whether those who have been mentioned by Justice Ringera can be allowed to contribute to the debate. You have not made that ruling.
Order! Order! Order! Hon. Members, the Chair also wants to give a direction. There was an issue which was raised by hon. Kioni in which he said that the personal conduct of the President was questioned or debated. That one is not the case. It is actually the performance of the President in his capacity as the Chief Executive Officer.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. We really respect the Chair. In view of the ruling that you have just made out of a point of order from hon. Githae, would I then be in order to ask hon. M. Kilonzo to declare his interest in this matter because he has been mentioned adversely?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we are made to understand that he is under investigation because of Kshs500 million from the National Social Security Fund (NSSF) that he was paid as legal fees.
Order! Order! Order!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on a more serious note, I want to repeat that I said in clear conscience that I cannot support the reappointment of Justice Ringera. That is what I said. So, I am speaking with my conscience.
Secondly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am an elected Member for Mwingi South first and foremost and all other things come thereafter. It does not matter to me as long as I remain the hon. Member for Mwingi South and I speak the truth. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, to continue, I will address the issue raised by hon. Githae, but I was interrupted when I was asking four fundamental questions. The first question was: During the time when Justice Ringera has been the Director of KACC, has he been successful in his work?
The answer is no! Two, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, what is the mood regarding Justice Ringeraâs reappointment? Law aside, what is the mood in the country? Do Kenyans support Justice Ringeraâs reappointment?
The answer is no!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the third question is: Would the reappointment of Justice Ringera help this country in any way to fight corruption? The answer is no! Fourthly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, would Justice Ringera enjoy the confidence of Kenyans while performing the duties that he has been reappointed to perform? Confidence is very important if he is to succeed in his work and, again, the answer is no!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for these four reasons, after getting ânoâ to the four questions, I made a conclusion that Justice Ringera is not fit to be reappointed the Director of KACC.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, hon. Members will recall that prior to Justice Ringeraâs appointment as the Director of KACC at the Judiciary---
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. We are not just debating the performance of Justice Ringera; that is a fact. We are not debating the performance! This is not a tribunal to remove Justice Ringera from office. Was the proper procedure used to re-appoint him? That is what we are supposed to discuss. So, if you want to discuss the conduct or evaluate his performance, that is a different thing altogether.
Mr. Musila, confine yourself to the subject matter of the Motion itself.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was about to address the issue that was raised by Mr. Githae on declaration of interest.
I would like to say that Justice Ringera has destroyed the careers of many Kenyans, including 23 Judges. Therefore, you cannot simply say that because Mr. M. Kilonzo, who I respect very much, came here with a list that was authored by none other than Justice Ringera, who has totally failed in his duty, can be justified by not speaking. Justice Ringera has been telling us that he is unable to function because of the Attorney- General. He also says that he has no powers to prosecute. One wonders, if he knows that he cannot function because of the Attorney-General or lack of statutes, why does he accept to be re-appointed in a situation he knows very well that he will not perform? Is it that he wants to continue earning public money and deliver nothing?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have been interrupted many times and I want to conclude by saying that the only option Justice Ringera has is to do the President a favour and resign from the position he has been re-appointed. He should allow Kenyans to select, through a proper process, a person who will help this country move forward in the fight against corruption.
I beg to support.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the issue about the re-appointment of Justice Ringera is very clear in the provisions of the law and the structure of our Constitution, for those who care to look at it. This is a dispute between Parliament and the Executive. Parliament is questioning the
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The hon. Member referred to respective hon. Members as monkeys.
Proceed, Mr. Munya!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, if hon. Members of this House are not even able to appreciate analogies, then it is up to them to sit down and judge. I was saying if we wanted to occupy that high moral ground that we are trying to occupy, the best thing we would do is to allow the courts to interpret the law for us and tell us whether, indeed, the President overreached himself or not by appointing Justice Ringera and his deputies. This House is in extreme hurry, for whatever reason. I have not seen them hurry lately over any other matter. Even when the Mau Forest issue came up yesterday, there were about-turns. Some of the people I have seen here interpret the Constitution walked out when the Mau Forest issue was being debated. We saw them walking out and when they stood, they did not stand the way they stand today. We are now being told that on this particular person, we must be in a hurry to hang him before we close the House today. A Gazette Notice---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would not like to interrupt my dear friend, Hon. Peter Munya. Surely, is the hon. Member in order to impute improper motives on hon. Members of this House by saying that since they are just about to be investigated by the KACC, they cannot debate this matter? I find this rather imputing improper motive on hon. Members.
Proceed, Mr. Munya!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have not imputed any improper motive. Somebody is trying to impute it for me. All I have said is that many of us, having been investigated â the list was tabled here and nobody is disputing that fact â are interested parties in this matter; why is it that we are in a hurry to make a decision on it without giving the courts the first opportunity to play the role that the they were established for â interpretation of the law? We are trying, as Parliament, to assume and usurp all the powers that we can get for ourselves. As we do that, we are busy accusing the Executive of usurping power, when Parliament is busy usurping and gathering any power that it is able to gather.
On a point of information, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order, Mr. Musyimi! From the mood of Mr. Munya, he is not interested in your information because he keeps going on.
Mr. Munya, are you interested in being informed by Rev. Musyimi?
Not at all, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Proceed, Mr. Munya.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am a fairly informed man on these issues.
I was saying that it is all very well for the two Committees of the House to sit down and make a report for Parliament. Parliament is playing its oversight role of scrutinizing the actions of the Executive. It is all very well for the two Committees to compile reports and bring them to the House for debate. It is all very well for the two Committees to say that the Executive erred. That is in order because it is our role as an oversight body to question actions and behaviour of the Executive.
When we purport to take over the responsibilities of the Executive by trying to imagine that we can annul a Gazette Notice which can only be challenged in the courts because they have the instruments of annulling them, we are overreaching, as a House.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the hon. Member in order to purport that Parliament is actually attempting to act beyond its powers while it is clear in Standing Order No.197(3) that the Committee of Delegated Legislation may recommend to the House that it resolves that any particular subsidiary legislation be annulled? This is within the functions of Parliament. The hon. Member is actually challenging that.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Mr. Ruto seems to be even supporting what I am saying that we do not have the powers of annulment of a Gazette Notice. We can recommend. We can make a decision and say we are not happy with particular actions of the Executive. To purport that we can actually annul a Gazette Notice as a House when we are not a court of law, is where we are overreaching ourselves.
On a point of information, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Munya, do you want some information from Mrs. Kilimo?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member does not seem to know that Ms. Karua did resign. He is misleading the House.
Thank you Mrs. Kilimo, I have already acknowledged that Ms. Karua and my friend and classmate Mr. Mungatana were able to take that step of faith and resign. I would like to see some of my seniors here taking that step instead of challenging the law all the time and trying to trash the law whenever it does not suit them. Whenever the law does not suit them, it will be challenged. The principle of collective responsibility will be thrown out through the window as trash as long as it does not serve their interests. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to conclude by appealing to the House that even as we may be annoyed, even as we may be very unhappy with what we think is an affront from the Executive, in trying to right this which we think is not right, let us not go beyond the powers that we are given by the same Constitution and law that we are defending. Let us not do a job that is not for this House. This is especially when we, ourselves, are interested parties in this matter. We should give room to the courts to play their role so that the stability of our constitutional order can continue to be maintained. Thank you.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion. The Standing Orders are very clear. Perhaps, some of us never read them when we passed them. The Committees of this House can indeed annul subsidiary legislation.
. It says:- âTo re-appoint means to appoint againâ
If you are truthful and it is because English is not our mother tongue and it was failing you and you thought a re-appointment is something else, may I here now tell you that that the dictionary says that to âre-appointâ is to appoint again.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, when you appoint again, the law is very clear. Section 8(3) says you begin where you began last time. The Advisory Board recommends, Parliament approves and the President appoints again. Let us not split hairs. On all fronts, the President failed to follow the right procedure. Section 17(2) has been read. The role of the Cabinet is to aid and advise. The Cabinet has failed the President. The Cabinet has failed the President or that section of it that wants to mislead him and continue telling him that he is right when he is wrong.
As an act of loyalty, to both the President and the Constitution of this country, each hon. Member and each Minister, even more, is obligated to tell the President the truth. The days of sycophancy are over. We do not have to argue until we froth insisting that the President is right when he is wrong. I believe that if he was sincerely told: âMr. President, sorry, you are wrong hereâ, he would have corrected this error a long time ago but hear how loudly everybody is telling him that he is right and congratulating him. I know the debate is not about Mr. Ringera and his two deputies, Fatuma and Smokin. I am disappointed in the three of them for only one reason; as a Commission that takes people
On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Yes, she has agreed to be informed. Whereas Ms. Karua said that she would use ordinary language as found in ordinary English dictionaries, I want to inform her that even the Blackâs Dictionary of Law on delegated legislation repeats word for word what we have found in the Oxford Dictionary. Therefore, good English is found in law as much as it is found in good English dictionaries.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I appreciate that very much and the House certainly does. Let us look at the Presidentâs authority under the Constitution. Indeed, Section 23 of our Constitution vests the Executive authority of the Government in the President. The Executive authority of the Government of Kenya shall vest in the President and, subject to this Constitution may be exercised by him either directly or through officers subordinate to him. Subsection (2) says: âNothing in this section shall prevent Parliament from conferring functions on persons or authorities other than the President.â Even though Section 23, vests Executive authority in the President, its Subsection (2) allows this House to delegate that power to any other authority or person. When you look at the Kenya Anti-Corruption and Economic Crimes Act, Section 8(3) says that the authority to hire and fire a director is delegated to the KACC Advisory Board, working together with parliament and the President only exercising the ceremonial role of appointing.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, therefore, the Constitution has allowed and this Parliament has delegated the President authority to appoint without a
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this Motion by way of amendment. I beg to move that the Motion be amended:- By inserting the following words after the expressions â8th September, 2009â, âsubject to deletion of Paragraph (b) of the recommendations on Page 11 of the Report.â
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, many of the things that I would have wanted to say have been said. Many of the reasons that I would have adduced for that have already been said by my colleagues who have opposed this Motion. I want to just mention one or two things. Section 23 of the Constitution says that the Executive authority of the Government of Kenya shall vest in the President. In my opinion, the action that has been taken is in exercise of Executive power and not legislative power. Secondly, as was mentioned a little bit earlier by hon. M. Kilonzo, the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs, Section 34, Cap.2 of Interpretation and General Provisions Act says:- âAll rules and regulations made under an Act shall, unless a contrary intention appears in the Act, be laid before the National Assembly without unreasonable delay and, if a resolution is passed by the National Assembly within twenty one days on which it next sits after the rule or regulation is laid before it that the rule or regulation be annulled, it shall, thenceforth, be void, but without
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Under Standing Order No.55, I invite you to find that the proposed amendment is, in fact, out of order. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the proposed amendment contravenes Standing Order 55(2) which says:- âNo amendment shall be permitted if in the opinion of the Speaker, it represents a direct negative of the Question proposed.â
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the issue is the annulment of the Gazette Notice. We cannot have an amendment at this stage to try and cut short the Question which has already been proposed. I invite you to rule that the hon. Member is out of order. Let us debate this matter until the cows come down, they die or wake up. Even if it is tomorrow, let us debate it. We do not want amendments which are misinformed.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I pray that you rule and find that, that amendment is completely out of order.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order! Order, hon. Kioni!
Hon. Mungatana, thank you for bringing that up. But, indeed, the Speaker himself has been gracious enough and has approved that amendment. So, we would be able to continue with it.
Hon. Kioni, can you proceed!
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for that clarification. I followed that route. I was saying we cannot undo what the Gazette Notice did. That can only be done as provided for in Schedule 1 of the Anti Corruption and Economic Crimes Act. Section 5 provides that a tribunal must be appointed for the reasons listed thereon.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I mentioned a little bit earlier, we do not have the minutes attached to it. It is difficult for us, as Members of Parliament, to conclude as to what was discussed in the minutes. The fact that the document was tabled may be, have the minutes attached to it, does not mean we know the deliberations that
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the hon. Kioni to introduce matters that he had raised earlier when the Deputy Speaker was on the Chair and a ruling was made? Is it in order for him to take advantage of you having just come when the Deputy Speaker has properly ruled over that matter.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I did introduce those things earlier. I did allude to that even before I said what I have just said. If I recollect well, the Speaker mentioned that those things should be raised later. What he actually said was that his report indicates that he has a signed copy. The fact is, we do not have signed copies. Our copies of the report do not have minutes indicating the proceedings that took place.
Many of the things that I would have said have been said, with those few remarks, I wish to move that amendment and call upon the gracious lady, hon. Naomi Shaban to second.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I do not want to disobey the orders that you have made or the rulings you have made. But really, what is the direction that we are taking? Assuming that hon. Kioniâs amendment is actually accepted that this House should not debate the question of annulment, then the debate is over. Assuming that we actually agree with him, then the Motion is over. So, are we suggesting that hon. Kioni is actually bringing this debate to a halt, so that we know that when we vote and he loses, then that is the end of this thing? We are being put in a situation in which we are going to debate something we have already voted on. If he loses on the issue of annulment, then there is nothing to debate anymore. So, we are being put in a very awkward situation. We seek your direction.
Order, hon. Kajwanâg! Order, Ms. Odhiambo! Actually, we need to proceed on. This amendment, and I repeat, has been approved. All we have to do is to get somebody to second this particular amendment and then we are going to be able to vote and we will be able to proceed on! So, that is the way we are going to proceed on this matter.
Hon. Kioni, who is going to second the Motion?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Dr. Naomi Shaban.
Asante sana, Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, kwa kunipa nafasi hii kuzungumzia urekebishaji wa Ripoti hii ambayo imeleta mushkil kidogo. Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, kwanza tuanzie kwenye Kanuni za Bunge. Kanuni za Bunge Kifungu cha 197---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Dr. Shaban, continue!
Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, Kanuni za Bunge Kifungu cha 197 ndicho kinasimamia Kamati ya kufuatilizia Sheria zinazotungwa na Bunge na jukumu la kuhakikisha kuwa Sheria zinazotungwa na Bunge zinafuatwa kikamilifu na Serikali. Kwa mujibu wa Sheria za Kenya, Gazeti Rasmi la Kiserikali la Kenya ndilo linapeana ilani zote za sheria kwa Serikali kwa sababu ndilo Gazeti Rasmi la nchi yetu. Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, kama nilivyosema hapo awali, jambo hili limeleta
kidogo kwa sababu Kamati hii ya kufuatilizia Sheria zinazotungwa na Bunge kuwa zitaweza kufuatwa kikamilifu ndiyo mara yake ya kwanza kuanza kazi. Na kwa sababu ndio mara ya kwanza kuanza kazi, tumegundua kwamba Kamati hii iko na mamlaka mazito sana. Sisi Wabunge ndio tumeipatia Kamati hiyo mamlaka hayo. Lakini kwa sababu ndio wameanza kazi, ningependa tu kuwasihi wenzangu ya kuwa katika hali yao ya kuanza kazi, tayari wameanza jukumu zito â jukumu lenyewe ni kukumbusha Serikali kuwa Bunge lipo na Wabunge wanafuata kile ambacho Serikali inatekeleza kwa mujibu wa Sheria zilizotungwa hapa. Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, kitambo, kuna wakati mwingine labda sheria zilikuwa zikiminywa-minywa kidogo ili Serikali iweze kutekeleza maswala fulani. Nataka kuwaomba wenzangu, kwa sababu ndio mara ya kwanza kwa swala hili, ningeomba kuwa tuheshimu Gazeti Rasmi la Kiserikali, lakini heshima yenyewe kwanza tumpatie Rais wetu, mhe. Mwai Kibaki. Na heshima yenyewe ni kwa sababu ya vile alivyofanya uamuzi â ijapokuwa yeye ni mbunge wa Othaya â alisahau kuwa Kamati hii inamwangalia na inamweka kwenye darubini kuhakikisha kuwa amefuata sheria zote. Mimi sio mwanasheria, lakini naweza kutunga sheria. Na kwa vile, Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, hapa tumejaliwa kuwa na mawakili wengi ambao wanaelewa sheria, na kila anayesoma sheria anaielewa kivyake. Vile vile, nina imani kuwa hata Rais wetu alipoiangalia hiyo sheria, aliisoma na akaielewa kivyake. Pia,Waziri wake wa Maswala ya Haki, Umoja wa Kitaifa na Katiba amesimama hapa na akaeleza na ungeweza kumwelewa kinaganaga kuwa na yeye pia, alivyoielewa ile sheria, imetofautiana kidogo na vile Kamati hii ilivyoielewa hiyo sheria. Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, kuambatana na hayo, sisi tuko hapa kwa sababu tumeorodheshwa rasmi kwenye Gazeti Rasmi la Serikali ya Kenya. Wabunge Maalum wako hapa vile vile kwa sababu waliorodheshwa kwenye Gazeti hili. Hakuna njia nyingine ya hao Wabunge kuteuliwa, ila kupitia Gazeti Rasmi la Serikali ya Kenya. Itakuwaje basi kama Wabunge Maalum na Madiwani Maalum--- Hata mimi nilichaguliwa katika Wasilisho la Taveta lakini kama singewekwa katika Gazeti Rasmi la Serikali, kamwe nisingeapishwa ili nitekeleze jukumu langu. Mimi si mwanasheria kama wenzangu ambao wamezungumza. Hata hivyo, naangalia jambo hili kiutu na jinsi nchi yetu ilivyo. Tuko katika wakati gani katika nchi yetu? Majukumu ya Bunge ni mazito sana na Wabunge wamejaribu kubadilisha kanuni
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this amendment. I wish to oppose the amendment to this Motion. Listening carefully to my friend, Hon. Kioni, proposing the amendment, if this amendment goes through, then the substance of this Motion will be lost. Therefore, the Motion will be of no significance, even if we support it finally. Therefore, I oppose the amendment to this Motion, and my reasons are as follows.
Firstly, this country has gone through two autocratic regimes We are in the third regime of dictatorship. If we need to put a stop to this, the âimperialâ Executive, an Executive that has no respect for Parliament, has to be told that it has to toe the line. I listened very carefully to the Mover of the Motion, who talked with a lot of honour and a lot of motherly advice. She advised us to show respect to the President but I would advise her equally â to kindly go and advise the Executive to respect Parliament and the people of Kenya.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, a lot has been said about the Executive authority that vests in the Presidency, but the proponents of this argument forget that, that Executive authority is exercised on behalf of the people of Kenya. When this particular Act was passed by this House, the reason as to why it was insisting that Members of Parliament must approve the appointment of the Director and his assistants was because it recognised the fact that the people of Kenya had the ultimate power to hire the KACC Director and his assistants. Any attempt to deny the people of Kenya this particular right is fraudulent, illegal and unfair to the people of this country. So, I urge this House to show some teeth. A lot has been said: That this is an act in futility. Even if we pass this particular annulment, it will not be implemented.
Order! Could you stick to the Motion before the House, please?
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. That is why I begged for your indulgence. The Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs argued a lot about the First Schedule to the Act and Section 3(2). He based his argument on that, because that Schedule is silent about consulting Parliament and getting recommendations from the Board; then the President has the express authority to go ahead and make the appointments. From where does the President get that authority? He gets it from Section 8(3). Why is it that the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs is applying the same Section selectively? I think the reason is because he is guilty of misadvising the Executive. He is defending his incompetence in advising the Executive properly. We would urge the Minister that it is not a weakness to accept that he is wrong. Could you, please, stand and apologise to the people of Kenya and tell them that you will now advise the President to do the right thing? If you do so, we will forgive you. But if you insist in taking this line, no hon. Member will now, or in future, respect any advice that you give to the people of this country.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I beg to oppose.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to stick to the question which is before the House. I will be very brief because the substantial questions have been addressed by other hon. Members of Parliament. The hon. Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs did quote Section 30 of the Constitution as a basis of laying the foundation of what is the authority and mandate of this House with regard to legislative power and authority. It should be well understood that the powers of Parliament are not only found in Section 30 of the Constitution; the powers of Parliament can be collected and gathered from various sections of the Constitution. This Constitution gives Parliament various powers, even to revoke Executive. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to give as an example, Section 85 of the Constitution which makes provisions for the preservation of public security. Section 85(4) refers to certain powers the President has authority and power to make under that section. Parliament does not need a Bill to revoke the decision of the President on an order made under Section 85 of the Constitution. It says:- âAn order made under this Section and approved by a resolution of the National Assembly in accordance with Sub-Section 2 may, at any time be revoked by a resolution of the Assembly.â This means that Parliament can revoke by resolution. You do not need to enact a Bill. Secondly, in relation to the powers of Parliament under the Standing Orders, it should be noted that Standing Orders are very important regulations because they flow
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy, Speaker, Sir. I rise to support the amendment. This is because I think the ruling to annul will be made from the wrong premise. If you listen to the debate going on here, even the lawyers themselves are not in agreement as to the interpretation of this law. We Members who are not lawyers; the laymen, are even more lost. When you listen to the debate, all of us are giving different reasons. Some say it is the procedure followed, others the law and others the performance of Ringera. So, what is it that we are judging in this House? Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we are the conscience of the nation. We are supposed to give hope and peace to this nation. From what is going on here, we may have different reasons why we are opposing this amendment. One might not be very happy with Justice Ringera for something he did or did not do. Others are unhappy with the President for something he did or did not do while some are settling scores. Others might be very genuine. However, is that the environment in which this House should make such an important decision? I think separation of powers was done for a purpose. I am sure those who did that Constitution were not stupid at all. They knew what they were doing. I think our major role is to make laws and not to interpret them. Otherwise, we would all be interpreting the same here. Othersâ roles are to implement. The Executiveâs role is to evaluate because it has the process. Parliament does not have the process to evaluate performance of KACC officials because they are working according to the mandate given to them. Parliamentâs role was to vet.
I can see that you have the numbers. Please, ring the Division Bell.
Messrs. Mwathi and Mungatana
Messrs. Ruto and Kazungu.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Going by the mood of the House as it is evidenced even by the voting and the contributions that we have given, would I be in order to call upon the Mover to reply?
Hon. Members, I will proceed to put the Question, that the Mover be now called upon to reply.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to take this opportunity to thank all the hon. Members for participating in this historic move. However, every historic move comes with responsibilities. Today, we are united in voting on this annulment; let it not be that next time we vote on an annulment of another unprocedural matter, we go back to our ethnic cocoons or our political cocoons. All that can be said on this matter has already been said. However, I wish to donate the remaining time to the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs.
Just put the Question.
Order, hon. Members! The Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance has indicated to the Chair that he is unable to transact the businesses under Order Nos.10, 11 and 12 for the reasons that he needs time to undertake consultations and prepare himself, particularly in the light of the business that has been transacted by the House this afternoon in respect of Order No.9, and the amendments which are proposed in Order Nos.11 and 12. Hon. Members, the Chair has considered the reasons advanced by the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance and finds that there is substance in the reasons that he has advanced.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that this House do adjourn until Tuesday, 10th November, 2009. The House postponed its adjournment because of the very crucial issues that we have been dealing with, namely, the debate on Mau and Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC).
It is clear that there is an element of exhaustion which has now set in. But, at the same time, the adjournment will also provide the various Committees with ample time to look at the various aspects of Government affairs and report to the House when it resumes on Tuesday, 10th November, 2009. I just want to take this opportunity to say that the message that has been sent by this House to the nation and to the people at large is that Parliament can no longer be taken for granted. It is one of the strongest statements to the Executive that, if we make the laws, it is important that we adhere to them. Parliament has, on this occasion, proved that it is completely different from what it has been in the past. The House has always been accused of providing a rubber stamp, but the very important statement that the House has made on issues surrounding the Mau Forests and KACC has sent a strong message that we must now look at Parliament as a different entity that must be respected. Mr. Speaker, Sir, at the same time, the break, which is roughly a month, will also provide Members with the opportunity to interact further with their constituents, particularly on matters that relate to CDF programmes. They have been having very little time to attend to those matters because of the nature of the parliamentary programme. So, this adjournment, which I strongly hope will be supported by Members, will allow them to have more time with their constituents and support them in whatever way is definitely desired. This is a straightforward Motion and I see no reason to belabour it, but just to seek that the House supports the Motion for Adjournment. I would like to request Prof. Anyangâ-Nyongâo to second the Motion. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to second the Motion for Adjournment which has been moved by the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government, Mr. Mudavadi who is my dear friend.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to support the Motion.
I wish to say that Executive should take the displeasure of Parliament seriously. We should not just say we are a country under the rule law. We must demonstrate respect for our laws. I hope that the Executive will take time to reflect and correct those issues. I also want to appeal to Ministers. Ministers of both sides of the Coalition Government: Look at your dockets. Look at what you have done wrong in Board appointments and correct them. Do not wait for Parliament to correct you. We must uphold the rule of law. It is right that we begin with the Chief Executive. But it is also important that Ministers also adhere to the law when executing their duties.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we, as Parliament, also should not play double speak. We must henceforth show seriousness as a reform institution. I take it that it is a new birth and together, we will move to ensure that the reform agenda is moved forward in this country. We do not have to be playing push and pull. We should all be pulling together to ensure that Agenda 4 is effected. It is regrettable that we will go home before my request for Ministerial Statement on IDPs is responded to. I want to appeal to the Government to ensure that the IDPs are resettled forthwith and in any event, before the El Nino rains. Majority of those in the camps were squatters without any land. They belong to Kenya. It is the responsibility of the Government to facilitate them to settle somewhere, so that life can continue.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, there are many things unattended. Let the Executive reflect and come back with renewed vigour to serve the people of this country. I want to stand here and give my condolence to the family of the late Mary Ngoyoni whom we are going to bury tomorrow in Kargi in Laisamis. I also want to say that this the time when we will not only work in our respective committees, but also find time to do things in our constituencies.
With those very few remarks, I beg to support the Motion at hand.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for this opportunity to add my voice to support the Motion for Adjournment.
I believe that this House has gone through a lot of tension. We are going through trying times. Even when you watch cooking going on in the house, there is a time that you need to lift the lid for the pot to simmer and for the food to cook properly. I believe that we are at that kind of point. We, as leaders, need to have that break so that we can start talking to each other and looking at where we are taking this country. We, as leaders, are called upon by our people to shape the destiny of this country in unison. We should ask ourselves what are some of the things that we need to think beyond what we are talking in Parliament. I believe the challenge ahead is bigger than, perhaps what we are looking at now, especially looking at the poverty levels, joblessness and economic situation in our country as part of the adverse effects coming from the global situation. I
The hon. Member for Shinyalu!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity. In the first place, I would like, for the benefit of those hon. Members who were not here or whom I have not interacted with, my names are Mugali Justus Kizito; a new Member of Parliament from Shinyalu.
First of all, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to pass my tribute to the late hon. Charles Lilechi Lugano, to whom I was his campaign manager. I want to say that he had very good programs for Shinyalu. Unfortunately, immediately he got to Parliament, he became sick and he was unable to proceed on with the programs. As I stand here in his honor, I want to promise Kenyans and my people in Shinyalu that I am going to start where he left. I will take over from there.
Secondly, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank the people of Shinyalu for accepting to elect me to this very august House and I feel dignified as I stand here. Thirdly, I would like to thank my party, ODM, for allowing democracy to flourish in Shinyalu. I was little known in the party but the party allowed me to contest using their ticket. When I won the election with ODM as a surprise candidate, they did not muzzle my way; they allowed me to come on.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would also like to thank my party leader, the Right Honorable Prime Minister, hon. Raila Odinga, who never abandoned me and who actually came and
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to support the Motion for Adjournment. I wish to join my colleagues in appreciating your role as the Speaker and also hon. Members for the democratic process that we have seen today.
In a democratic process, there are winners and losers. On the side of those who lost this evening, we have to recollect and understand that those who convinced more hon. Members to join the opposite side did so and we must now speak with one voice after the vote.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, my correct name is Silas Ruteere.
At least, I got one name right!
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Otherwise, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to support this Motion of adjournment, so that we can go back to our constituencies and also attend to other issues that we are not able to attend to when we are in Parliament. The country is ravaged by famine, especially in areas where drought has hit seriously. As Members of Parliament, we need to go and work with the people, advise them and also consult with the Ministry of State for Special Programmes to see that relief food reaches all corners of the constituencies, because at times, when it is given out and we are not there, it goes into the wrong hands. So, it is time that Members of Parliament are also involved to see who are in great need of food and what can be done. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also appeal for the release of Constituencies Development Fund (CDF) money for this particular year. We are going home at a time when CDF money has not been released. We have a lot of problems that need CDFâs attention. Schools need infrastructure. Dispensaries need to be done. There is no preparation for the expected El Nino rains. We need some dams to be done. We need watering. We need storage of various things. So, I appeal to the CDF Management Board to see that they release CDF funds. Also, the much talked about economic stimulus package, where schools and health centres are to get money for planting of trees, we are about to go to the planting season. We need to know when this money will be released, so that planting can be done on time. We also need seeds. Farmers are preparing their shambas . Some of them will not be able to buy seeds. We need to have farmers assisted with seeds. We also need to have the subsidized fertilizers reaching all corners of the constituencies, where there is farming going on. It is time that this is done before the rains start because some of the roads become impassable when it rains. Therefore, this is the time to access all these inputs to the farmers at the right time.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as has been said, this House has done a lot of work and our stay here had also attracted a lot of people from the constituencies. I started noticing that constituents had filled the offices at Continental House. They were almost overtaking the whole area. So, hon. Members should go to their constituencies, so that they attend to the needs of these wananchi who come towards Parliament and their offices, so that they see them closer in the constituencies.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is time that we went and appealed to those preparing students for examinations to prepare them for examinations which are coming next month. The students should know that we are with them. We pray for them and encourage them so that they do their examinations well and succeed. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also want to appeal to the Ministry of Youth Affairs and Sports to organise their programmes properly. There are those youth groups that were given money and have denied others the opportunity to be given money. I would appeal to this Ministry not to give a condition of releasing new refunds to groups depending on how much those others have repaid because we do not know how those others were selected. Some may not have been selected the right way and that is why they are not paying. A criteria should be given which will make MPs identify the correct youth groups because for the last two years, we have not received youth funding. The youth are becoming many. This money was only given to a few groups and it did not reach all
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to air my views. I rise to support the Motion For Adjournment. It has come at the right time. Actually, we should have gone on recess about two weeks ago, but it is never too late. As we prepare to go on recess, it is important that we utilize it in a most beneficial manner, visiting our constituents and CDF projects. We should visit our constituents so that they do not have to come at Continental House. I am glad that no constituent of mine has ever come to Continental House to look for me. I go to where they are. I think that is important. As Ministers, this recess will give us a chance to work in our offices without parliamentary business interrupting the official business. For example, I promised the House that my Ministry will sort out the traffic problems in Nairobi. Studies have been done and concluded. We are now just preparing the drains on the way we want to sort out this issue. Since I have been preparing a Ministerial Statement on the issue and now that we are going on recess, I think it would be good that I mention to hon. Members some of the thinking that is going into this area. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the first thing we will do is that we will convert the major roads into one-way streets, starting with Harambee Avenue. You will be able to approach Harambee Avenue only from Uhuru Highway. It will be a one-way street. Parliament Road will be a one way street towards Hotel Intercontinental. City Hall Way will be a one Way Street. Moi Avenue will be a one way street going towards the north. This will ensure that the main entry of the City Centre will be Harambee Avenue. The main exit will be Kenyatta Avenue. Entry into the city from the other side, Moi Avenue will also be one way. On the other side of Moi, Tom Mboya Street will be one way. River Road will be one way and Kirinyaga Road will also be one way. Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have also identified what we call bus corridors. It has come out very clearly that we blame matatus for congesting the City Centre. It is not the
that congest the City Centre. It is the private motorists who congest the City Centre. Therefore, we have reversed the previous policies. We now want to implement policies that will make you leave your car at home and enter into a Public Service Vehicle (PSV). Those are the plans we have. On bus routes, we want to reinstate the old Kenya Bus Services (KBS) routes that we had. The old KBS routes used to start on the outskirts of the City Centre and end up at the outskirts of the City Centre but they would transit through the City Centre. That is the correct way to go about it. We should not tell commuters that if you are coming from western Kenya, they alight at Westlands roundabout and take another vehicle to the City Centre. That is inconveniencing to the commuters and also very expensive. We have had cases where somebody who had come from Kisumu and it was their first time in Nairobi alighted at the Westlands roundabout and got lost. The person who was to meet them was to meet them at the country bus station. The disabled have also been complaining that it is inconvenient for them. We are going to allow PSVs to transit through the City Centre.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, from the outset, let me say that I support the Motion for Adjournment. Indeed, it is true that it has been a long session and we more than deserve a break. As we rise to take this well deserved break, I dare say that we do so proudly, having raised the bar for this House to historic levels. Indeed, today I am proud to have been part of a big blow that we have struck for the rule of law in this House. All of us can proceed to take this break, knowing that we have re-ignited the belief of the people of Kenya and the confidence of the people of Kenya in the institution of Parliament. Today, we have made it absolutely clear that we shall stand up as an institution to uphold the tenets of democracy and the rule of law in its purest sense. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to take this opportunity to urge the House that as we go to busy ourselves with our respective constituency business, let us focus our minds on some key agenda for business that remains unresolved. We have the Constitution making process on the Table. I have the honour of serving as the Vice-chairman to the Parliamentary Select Committee on Constitution Review.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am aware that the Committee of Experts is already at an advanced stage of considering various views coming from various sectors. May I urge hon. Members that wherever we will be, may we continue to be robust participants in that process. This is also a good opportunity for us to engage in disaster preparedness because the Department of Meteorology has warned us in advance of impending El Nino and as I prepare myself to roll up my sleeves and my trousers to head to Budalangâi and prepare for this El Nino phenomenon. I want to send a message of good will to all my colleagues and all Kenyans in the hope that we shall be found prepared when this El Nino hits the country.
I also want to urge the Government to fast track the economic stimulus package (ESP) because the Government has laid out an ambitious programme under this agenda but so far, not much has been seen. So, we want to see stuff like the model school, upgrading of heath centres, construction of markets and all those nice things that the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance outlined in the Budget statements last June and because this stimulus package had a six months deadline, we would like this whole programme to take off.
Finally, I want to urge the Government to also utilize this time while we are on recess to be prepared for tasks and I particularly want to touch on sports. There are various sporting activities that this country is scheduled to host. There is the African Athletics Meet that this country is supposed to host next year. There is the East Africa Soccer Tournament and we do not see any activity towards preparedness for those tournaments. I want, therefore, to urge the Government that may we use this opportunity to prepare for this, so that we can host our name high. Of course, during this Recess, some of us will also be representing this National Assembly at the International Half Marathon for Members of Parliament in Poland. We hope, led by our Captain, Maj-Gen.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. First of all, I want to congratulate the new Members of Parliament represented here by Mr. Justus Kizito and Eng. Simon Ogari. I would also like to say that I spent a week in Shinyalu and I can attest the fact that Mr. Kizito was elected democratically. The election was very peaceful and I can assure the hon. Member that I will work together with him to uplift the lifestyles of Shinyalu people who are my relatives in one way or the other.
I want to commend my colleagues for voting for the Mau Task Force report yesterday. It was a happy day for me and the spirit that I saw emanating from hon. Members here is that they recognized the importance of environment and saving our forests; our five water towers. The only thing I want to urge them is that let all of us talk to people about planting trees. Those with land should donate 10 per cent of it for planting of trees. To schools, we are saying that each child should plant five trees at school and three trees at home. With 35,000 primary schools, and an average of 500,000 pupils, those will be many trees.
Drought has been with us for two years now. We see our people dying and our animals dying. Hippos and elephants have been dying, because of drought. So, it is important that we, in Kenya, are aware that destruction of forests contributes, to some extent, to the lack of rain that we are having. This has caused a lot of poverty among our people. We see people dying and we are experiencing shortage of food. Last year, we experienced shortage of food. Trans Nzoia is the granary of Kenya and I can attest to the fact that this year, Trans Nzoia will get only half of the crop. So, we have a problem and we should be prepared to make sure that the little maize that is harvested is bought by the Kenya National Cereals and Produce Board (NCPB). The NCPB should have enough money to ensure that as soon as farmers deliver, they are paid.
I want to join the Member for Kacheliba in saying that we are one Government. We should not forget the fact that this is a Coalition Government. I look forward to the day when Mr. Olago will be voting with me. We should not always retreat to our political parties when we have a national issues such as the one we had yesterday. It is one Government and we have to make sure that it survives for the next three years, because our people want service from us and not politics. We have conducted enough politics, and I think we should now reach out to each other. Let us visit each other. I was very happy when I had a home coming, with six Members of ODM in Kwanza. This is the sort of thing we want to see so that we can persuade each other. I should persuade ODM people to come to the side of PNU people and PNU the same. Elections are funny things. People who refuse to vote for you this year will vote for you next year. I do not see much of that. I do not see us engaging together.
Insecurity still continues in my constituency. Cattle rustling is common. I support the Motion.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I also support this Motion of Adjournment. I would like to make a few remarks. First, I would like to raise a point on insecurity in this country. The Government should increase security agencies in our urban and rural areas. Recently, we have noted some kidnappings and abductions and even murders. The transport industry has also been
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity. I will try to be very brief. Today was a very historic moment in this country. It was historic because this Parliament has been known as the club of 222. We have been known as a club of 222 against the country because we have not been feeling the pulse of the nation. We seem to be always going against the grain. Today, we have not gone against the grain and for those of us who have been listening to the media and to the mood of the country, we have listened to the country. One of the reasons why this moment is historic is because we took a bi-partisan approach today. If you actually saw the people who voted in support of the Report of the joint Committees, you will realize that they were across party lines. That is very encouraging. Secondly, we also voted cross ethnic lines. I know that there are many people who say that we vote along ethnic lines. But, for once, we voted across ethnic lines. There was no PNU, ODM, Luo, Kikuyu or Kisii. We voted with our conscience. One of the other reasons why today is historic is because we have lifted the jurisprudence of this country to a higher level. When I was a student of law, one of the things that we researched on in this country - and we were a source of authority on - is the issue of the separation of powers. Today, we have seen the separation of powers at play and at excellence. I am saying that because there are many people who are saying that we are practicing parliamentary dictatorship. It is not dictatorship. It is new to us, but in reality, what we are basically exercising is the separation of powers as it should be. If we think that the Executive is going beyond its limits, then Parliament must come in and indicate where the Executive limits stops and ours begins. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to say that, as the Biblical Moses, at one point, we have to be like the Israelites. Moses said: âAt this point, I am making a decision. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.â Many of us today made a similar decision. For me, and I am sure it may go for the Speaker as well---That for you and this House, you chose to serve the Lord. With those few remarks, I support the Motion.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Adjournment Motion. It is time to go back and âtouch baseâ with our constituents. I am going to Isiolo North Constituency at a time when we have experienced one of the worst insecurity situations. About 70 people have died between April last year and this time. Animals worth millions of shillings have been stolen and relations between my constituency and the neighbouring constituency has not been one of the best. I would like to urge my fellow colleagues who are neighbouring Isiolo North that we get together and look at the situation, so that we can serve our people. It is only when there is peace that development can take place. The foundation of development is peace. I would like to urge all Members who are neighbouring my constituency to come together and take full charge of the situation and try to bring sanity to the area.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also urge the Government to take its role seriously and try to incise and analyse the root cause of insecurity in that area and come up with appropriate solutions. This is because the roles played by the Government are wanting. I am sure those who have been following the media reports have observed situations where Government security forces watch armed gangs in a Government protected area and nothing is done. This is a wanting situation on the part of the Government. Therefore, I would like the Government, especially the Office of the President and the Ministry that deals with internal security to take this matter, analyse it and come up with appropriate measures. As a Member for Isiolo North, I will be very co-operative both with the Government when the intention is correct and is in terms of bringing sanity and peace in the area. I will also collaborate with my colleagues. I invite all of them, so that we can solve the security situation in Isiolo and the neighbouring districts.
I would like the Committee on Administration and National Security, as it visits us, to really take time, analyse and come up with the issues which are disturbing these areas. The Committee should bring us together. I appeal to the Chairman of that Committee to involve us, as Members of Parliament. I am willing and ready to participate in a reconciliatory approach and programme that will bring sanity to this area. This is because without that, we will be going back with no major activity or maybe, running up and down after stolen animals, burying those who have died and wasting our time instead of bringing development. This is because the area I have mentioned is one of the most marginalised areas that needs a fast-track in development. We should be in the forefront in the fast-tracking of development in that area.
I would also like to be with the livestock farmers, as the Minister for Livestock Development and understand the challenges that they face, for example, drought, deaths and impoverishment. People with large heads of animals are now coming back from Mt. Kenya Forest and various places empty handed. I am sure that the scene at the holding ground that I mentioned today is just a replica of the scenario countrywide. I am grateful that the Government has done what it is able to do, although this is not the main solution. We should focus on the issues of re-stocking after the drought. I will try to bring up this matter before the Cabinet, so that we can support livestock farmers after this drought. Mr. Speaker, Sir, with those remarks, I beg to support this Motion.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to support this Motion for the simple reason that it is very well that we go home at this point when our rating is very high.
Order, Dr. Khalwale! You have run out of time!
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to support this Motion and say that the Executive should make sure that he corrects this, otherwise the rest of the Kenyan communities feel that they are left out of the police force.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to support this Motion of Adjournment, which is quite overdue, considering that there is a lot that we need to go and do on the ground, especially laying out the proposals for the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) money that we anticipate to be allocated very soon.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also hope that as we go for recess, I will be able to host the Minister for Forestry and Wildlife, Dr. Wekesa, to come and see what we have done in Embobut Forest; namely, persuading people, removing them from forests and now, they are in 16 holding grounds. I also hope that we will be able to use this recess to resettle the people in Embobut who have willingly moved out of the forest before the El-Nino rains come.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is the issue of hunger, especially from the Arid and Semi- Arid Lands (ASALS) communities and we have seen people dying. So, I really appreciate this recess so that we can go and update ourselves on the situation to avoid people dying because of hunger. Considering that hon. Members seem to do more than what the Provincial Administration could be doing â checking on what is happening in peopleâs lives, it has to be us and I think it is high time that we go on recess.
Finally, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to use this opportunity on the Floor of the House to call on my community, the pastoralists; I come from a pastoralist community where we have been killing each other because of animals â because of cows that look like goats! When I remember the Samburu West killings, I want to send my condolences to the Samburu people and call on the Pokot, Samburu, Marakwet and Turkana that it is high time they changed their way of life. I also hope that this opportunity, before we go on recess, that hon. Members of the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security will be able to get enough time to go and spend time with these communities and talk to them on the importance of living as brothers and the importance of changing lives.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also hope that with what we have just seen happening in Samburu, the police and the Provincial Administration will be facilitated enough. Sometimes, we blame the security officers but sometimes, you find District Officers who have to walk 200 kilometers to go and see to a situation. What is happening in the pastoralist areas is fire fighting, where the Government arrives when people have died. What is happening? I really hope that we will be able to stop such things from happening; may this be the last one in the pastoralist communities.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, with these few remarks, I beg to support the Motion.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will be very brief and I will start by really congratulating this House for this historic day; for seriously having passed the Motion that was before us. This Motion was not about a tribe, a community or an individual. It was about whether the Executive, really, upheld the rule of law in dealing with the appointments that were before this House.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also want to really state very clearly that this is the beginning of the end of the culture of impunity. I am happy because Parliament has really exercised
Hon. Members, before we adjourn, I have a Communication to make. It is important that I do so this time because it gives us some directions on what will happen presently.
Hon. Members, it is now time to interrupt the business of the House. The House, therefore, stands adjourned until Tuesday, 10th November, 2009, at 2.30 p.m.
The House rose at 9.48 p.m.