Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Why, in spite of the operationalisation of the Public Procurement and Disposal Act nearly two and half years ago, the post of Director-General of the Public Procurement and Oversight Authority has remained vacant? (b) How has the failure to appoint a substantive Director-General impacted on the Authorityâs national and international operation? (c) When will the appointment be made?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) Following the enactment of the Public Procurement and Disposal Act, 2005, the Public Procurement and Oversight Authority (PPOA) started operations in January, 2007. The first year consisted of setting up of structures under the overall guidance of a Technical Assistant in the institution who performed the duties of the Director-General on an interim basis. The Public Procurement and Oversight Advisory Board was constituted in October, 2007, and embarked on the recruitment of a substantive Director-General in 2008. On conclusion of the process, none of the candidates was found suitable. The Board is currently in the process of recruiting the Director-General afresh. (b) The Ministry of Finance and the PPOA work very closely to ensure that it carries out its mandate as provided for in the Public Procurement and Disposal Act, 2005, and its attendant regulations of 2006. The PPOA enjoys good relations with similar regulatory authorities and partners both in the region and internationally. The PPOA recently hosted the 2nd East African Procurement Forum successfully which had representation from Eastern Africa, Africa and internationally. (c) The process of recruitment of the Director-General is underway and the position will be filled expeditiously. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, you will notice from the answer of the Assistant Minister that it has taken the Ministry nearly three years to effect what the law requires to have been done within the first year. So, in effect, the Director-Generals who have been acting for three years now have been doing so under the terms of Schedule 15(1), which says:- âUpon the establishment of the Authority, each member of staff of the Public Procurement Directorate, including the Director, shall remain a member of the Public Service but shall be seconded to the Authority for a period of not more than one year.â So, what is the effect of this in terms of the operations of the Authority? The Director- Generals have been operating illegally for nearly three years.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this Director-General who has been acting has not been acting for three years. He started acting sometimes in---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I do know that there has been a succession of Acting Director-Generals. So, whether it is the present one or the previous one, they have all been acting. So, what is the position?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the first person who was acting in that position was not employed by the Kenya Government. So, he was not acting or seconded from the Public Service or the Kenyan Government. This was a technical assistant from the World Bank and when he finished the task of establishing this organization â it was very odious and that is why he took a long time - then he went and a Director-General was appointed and the intention was to recruit the substantive Director-General within a year. Unfortunately, when the process started, we could not identify a suitable Director- General and that is why he is still acting. However, this has, in no way, affected the operations of the organization.
Ask your last question, hon. Olago!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, now that the Directorate has advertized for the position of the Director-General, what steps is the Ministry taking to ensure that they get a competent Kenyan to fill that position substantively?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we advertized this position in various newspapers; the East African, the Standard and the Daily Nation . The closing date is 9th November, and the short-listing of these officers is being done by a competent consultancy body that will then recommend the names of those qualified immediately. A competent Kenyan will be recruited to fill this position.
to ask the Minister for Lands the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Could he confirm that land to settle Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs) who were displaced during the 2007 post-election violence has been identified, and if so, provide the names of the land owners and the location of the land? (b) How much money has been factored in the Ministryâs budget in 2009/2010 for the purchase of the said land and when does he intend to complete this process?
Order, hon. Members! Question No. 2 by Private Notice is deferred to Wednesday next week because I have notification from the hon. Member for Kamukunji that he is indisposed.
Next Question by the hon. Member for North Imenti!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security the following Question by Private Notice
(a) Is the Minister aware of the continued disappearance of money on transit in the hands of M/s G4S Company?
(b) How much money has been stolen while on transit in the last six months?
(c) Does the Government still have confidence in G4S in transporting money for public, private and other financial companies?
(d) What is the Government doing to arrest such theft of public funds and restore investor confidence?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) I am aware that there are three incidences reported within Nairobi whereby colossal amounts of money have been stolen while in the custody of G4S in the last six months.
(b) The total cash reported stolen in the past six months is Kshs86,651,000. Out of this amount, 683,000 was in US dollars translating to Kshs52 million.
(c ) The Government has noted some weaknesses in the security arrangements of G4S Security Company and has instituted measures to safeguard public and private funds transported by the company. The company has successfully been engaged in the cash-in- transit industry for four decades and it is considered a reputable international company that has invested in a fleet of bullet proof vehicles. We believe that once the weaknesses are addressed, the company will continue offering quality services.
(d) The Government moved swiftly to investigate the incidences and the following case files were opened:
(i) Police Criminal Case (CR) No.151/182/09; Court File No.5075/09 â Four suspects have been arrested and their cases are before court.
(ii) Police CR No.141/792/09; Court File No.4218/09 â 14 suspects have been arrested and their cases are before court.
(iii) Police CR No.A11/91/09 â The case is still under investigation.
The Government has further introduced the following measures to contain similar incidences: 1. Vetting of staff working in the G4S Security Company.
2. Ensuring that security officers escorting the vans are the ones assigned that particular duty.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank the Assistant Minister for that detailed answer. However, you realize that the country has lost a colossal amount of money, that is, Kshs86 million in three months. Why is it that the Cash-in-Transit (CIT) vehicle has one armed policeman; and two armed policemen in the chase car when we know that the former Minister, hon. Michuki, directed that there should be at least four policemen, that is, two in the chase car and two others in the CIT vehicle?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, there are some measures which we are putting in place. That particular suggestion alone will not help us to curb this menace. The G4S Security Company is also progressing a pilot CIT vehicle for review on suitability for CIT runs. Because of the advanced level of armouring, this new vehicle will provide better safety for the police officers and staff if it is adopted.
The G4S Security Company is also installing vehicle tracking devices on its operations fleet. That will also act as an added security layer to manage the CIT. So, even if we provided additional vehicles to follow the armoured vehicles and it is an in-house job, it will still be an exercise in futility. With new armoured vehicles being put in place and the tracking devices, this will be a thing of the past.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in our neighbouring country, Uganda, most people have guns, including security companies such as the G4S that has been hit with robberies. Could the Assistant Minister consider allowing our security companies to carry guns in view of the fact that the police force is inadequate and we are still living way below the recommendations by the United Nation (UN) as far as the ratio of policemen to citizens is concerned? Could the Minister consider allowing these people to carry guns so that we can reduce the robberies to the same level as that of Kampala?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think I have mentioned here that we are considering a number of other things. If it is found to be fit, we have no problem with that. There is also a suggestion that we constitute a police unit. We are working out some modalities that will see the establishment of a police unit in support of security companies when it comes to cash logistics. Those are some of the areas that we will explore if need be, in order for the cash not to be tampered with. The other device system is where the CBK is progressing the approval of the draft that will see regulation on smoke and dye technology with a view to its introduction in the market as soon as possible. This technology has been used in other markets to protect cash movement. When you interfere or tamper with the box, the dye spills out and the currency will be tainted with ink. It will be useless for one to use such currency in the market. Those are some of the areas we are exploring.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is a fact that CIT services is a Kshs12 billion business in this country. The best practices in the larger economies is that CIT is a special service that is left to the CIT companies to manage by way of training their own personnel, paying them and so on. In this country, the Government spends millions of shillings to train police officers. It then wastes them by giving them out to CIT companies which pay them Kshs500 only. What plans does the Assistant Minister have to completely withdraw police officers from this service so that CIT companies have their own security and our officers are left to do more important services like providing security in Pokot?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are exploring ways and means of carrying this cash without any problem. We are intending to establish a police unit which is going to deal firmly with CIT matters. If, indeed, this goes through, we will not have any problem with these added technological devices. So, I do not think we should have any problem should we constitute some of these measures.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the police officers who escort the CIT vehicles put their life at risk because robbers wait for them. What remuneration do you give these police officers? What are the payment policies of these companies who provide Cash-In- Transit services?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as you are aware, electronic transfer is now being undertaken. Also, those who are involved in the cash transactions are provided with insurance. We always advise that they must put on bullet-proof vests as a security measure.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I asked about the remunerations that these officers get for those services.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, G4S Company pays these fellows risk and responsibility allowances.
Next Question by the Member of Parliament for Ikolomani Constituency!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Youth Affairs and Sports the following Question by Private Notice.
(a) Is the Minister aware that two Kenyan Community Football Clubs, AFC Leopards and SOFAPAKA, which have qualified to represent Kenya in Continental Championships, risk failure to participate due to financial constraints?
(b) What is the Minister doing urgently to arrest the above threat since the two teams have to immediately go into camp for training?
Is the Minister for Youth Affairs and Sports not here? We will re- visit the Question later.
Next Question by the Member of Parliament for Cherengany!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Roads the following Question by Private Notice.
What measures has the Minister put in place to ensure that Eldoret-Ziwa-Kitale Road, which is currently in a deplorable state, is restored to motorable condition?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
The Ziwa-Kitale Road comprises of two sections. One is Kachibora-Sibanga- Kitale Road, Road C48, which is in a fair and maintainable state. My Ministry has allocated Kshs3 million for routine maintenance of that section. The other section, which is Eldoret-Ziwa-Kachibora Road, Road D328, has deteriorated due to overloading. The
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the answer given by the Assistant Minister is making the situation worse. It shows that the Government is not committed to improving these roads. The amount of Kshs3 million set aside for Kachibora-Sibanga Road is like a drop of water in the ocean. Right now, there is a lot of muram on that road, which is making it worse. I do not know why the Government is not using tar, instead of muram, to repair these roads.
Order! Order, Mr. Kutuny! We allow one supplementary question at a time. You have developed your first supplementary question very well. Let the Assistant Minister answer.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the Eldoret-Ziwa-Kitale Road---
Order! You have asked that supplementary question. You spent about one-and-half minutes to do so. Allow the Assistant Minister to respond.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to confirm that the Ministry is very serious with the maintenance of this section of the road. We can only allocate that money that has been allocated to the Ministry. We appreciate that there are constraints in terms of finances, but we will ensure that we prioritise this section of the road in the coming financial year.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the last Session, the Assistant Minister promised to visit roads in this region, particularly the Eldoret-Kitale Road, and the Ziwa- Kachibora-Kitale Road. I do not know when he intends to visit those roads; because Kshs3 million is clearly insufficient for fixing those roads. When does he intend to visit the roads to appreciate the situation?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to confirm to the hon. Member that, indeed, we have visited that section of the road. We are aware of the deplorable condition of roads in those regions. I want to assure the hon. Member that in the coming financial year, we will ensure that we prioritise that section of the road. I would like to appreciate that most of the other roads, especially in the Northern Corridor, have been done. Now our priority will be to ensure that the access roads to the producing areas have been taken care of.
Is there anybody else who is interested in asking a supplementary question?
Last question, Mr. Kutuny!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister has stated very clearly in his reply; that the KERRA will be undertaking an assessment exercise for the cost requirement for the improvement of the roads. Could he give a specific time-frame as to when the KERRA will do the assessment and table its findings to the concerned authority? When will he take action?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have indicated that the KERRA is undertaking an urgent assessment of the roads. I may not be able to give definite dates as to when that will be done, but âurgentâ means it is already going on. As soon as that exercise is completed, we will prioritise it.
I also wish to draw the hon. Memberâs attention to the fact that, that section of the road has worsened because of the Elgeyo Marakwet Forest. Loggers have been using that road to escape the Eldoret Weigh Bridge. That has made the state of that road very bad.
Next Question by the Member of Parliament for Kieni Constituency!
asked the Minister for Forestry and Wildlife:- (a) what measures he is taking to ensure that areas around the Aberdares and Mount Kenya, which have continually been deforested, are rehabilitated and more trees planted to restore the water catchment base; and, (b) whether he could consider providing funds and tree seedlings to youths in Kieni West and Kieni East districts to enable them undertake afforestation in the region.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Minister for Forestry and Wildlife is not here, but he has authorised me to answer the Question on his behalf. So, I am seeking your permission to proceed.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) In our effort to ensure that the Aberdares and Mount Kenya water towers are conserved, and that the degraded areas within the forest reserves rehabilitated, my Ministry, in collaboration with the local communities, development partners and other stakeholders, have been actively undertaking tree planting and other conservation measures geared towards restoration of the water catchment areas.
(b) My Ministry, through the Kenya Forest Service (KFS), has been engaging the youth in the afforestation programme, both in Kieni East and Kieni West districts, in Government and donor-funded programmes. In this endeavour, through the Kazi kwaVijana Programme Phase I, the Ministry engaged 342 youths in afforestation programmes in the two districts. However, the tree planting programme was hampered by lack of sufficient rains and will resume as soon as the situation improves. During Phase II of the
(KKV) Programme, the Ministry intends to plant trees in public degraded lands, institutions and water catchment areas. These activities will again be accomplished through engagement of youth in the two districts.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the answer given by the Minister is okay but he should explain to this House--- The project has stopped and as we are talking, there is
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in my reply I did refer to Phase II of the programme. Under this phase, about 55 hectares of land are going to be planted with trees at a cost of Kshs650,000 and will employ 100 youths from the two districts.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank the Minister for answering this Question. However, I would request him to state what the Government is doing about the Mau Forest Complex issue. I come from the northern part of the Mau Forest Complex where we have been waiting for the implementation of the Task Force Report. Its recommendations were even endorsed by the Cabinet. We have not seen anything on the ground. How long will the Government take to make sure that the northern part of the Mau Forest Complex is replanted with trees?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, although the Mau Forest Complex has similar characteristics that obtain to the problem in Mt. Kenya and Mt. Aberdares, it is an entirely different Question. However, I would like to say that there is a programme to replant Mau Forest Complex as soon as the current problem has been concluded.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to know from the Minister what long term programme they have for reforestation of water catchment areas in the country. This problem in Mt. Aberdares and Mt. Kenya is widespread in the whole country. What long term programme does the Government have for the rehabilitation of these areas? These areas include places like Ebusiekwe Hills and Maragoli Hills in Emuhaya and Vihiga respectively.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I had hoped that the hon. Member would bring an entirely different Question on that. I have no brief to advice him. However, his question requires more time than the time available during Question Time. The Ministry of Forestry and Wildlife together with the Ministry of Environment and Mineral Resources have plans to plant 7.6 billion trees in the next 20 years on 4.1 million heactares of land. We are looking for funds for this. We shall be using 35,000 primary and secondary schools that will prepare tree nurseries all over the country. The school programme requires Kshs3.5 billion to provide water tanks and harvesting material because we have to harvest water. At the same time, it is intended that we shall employ the services of 6,500 women groups and 4,300 youth groups. So, there is a progamme.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, while I appreciate the efforts of afforestation, especially in lower Imenti Forest, is the Minister aware that the exercise is being put in futility because camels are being grazed in the forest? Has the Government allowed camels to enter Imenti Forest as grazing ground?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have not allowed anyone, camels or goats to destroy forests. It is an offence to interfere with forests. I am sure that if the matter is properly brought to the attention of the Ministry, we have adequate forces to deal with the problem.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Minister has mentioned that he will spend Kshs650,000 and employ members of about 4,300 youth groups to do that work. The area we are talking about is quite expansive. It will require about 10 million to 20 million
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I hope Mr. Warugongo noted what I said before. Namely, that the programme was there, it was interrupted due to lack of rains. Now the rains are back and within the two districts, it is intended that over Kshs2 million will be used this year to plant 82 hectares of degraded regions in the areas that he now mentions. So there is a programme, the details of which will be available to him if he cares to come to the Ministry.
Next Question, Member for Garsen!
asked the Minister for Information and Communications:- (a) what is the total cost of the recently launched East African Marine Systems (TEAMS) project; (b) when the project will start actual operations; (c) what security measures are in place to ensure safety of the fibre optic cables; and, (d) what steps he is taking to ensure optimum use of the facility, considering that very few Kenyans own computers.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, before I reply, I wish to apologise for not being able to respond to this Question twice or three times previously. This was not deliberate; but it was because of the busy schedule within the Ministry that could not allow any of us to be available for the last two or three occasions. It was not intentional, but because this House and country in general, have given the Ministry of Information and Communications the mandate to spearhead the achievements of the objectives of Vision 2030. For that reason, we are really on our toes. But the fruits of hard work---
Order Mr. Assistant Minister! Failing to be present in the House to answer a Question on three occasions is not illustrative of a Ministry that is on its toes to achieve vision 2030. That explanation, I am afraid, is not tenable, but proceed to answer, if you have the answer now.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. The Member for Garsen, Mr. Mungatana, wanted to confirm with the Ministry (a) the total cost of the recently launched The East African Marine System Cables, (TEAMS) project (b) when the project will start actual operations (c) what security measures are in place to ensure safety of the fibre optic cables, and (d) what steps the Minister is undertaking to ensure optimum use of the facility, considering that very few Kenyans own computers.
Member for Garsen!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, first of all I would like to thank the Assistant Minister for bringing the fibre optic cable into operation in Kenya, because previously we had a lot of problems with the call centre operators using the old technology, which used to have the problem of latency. But now that the Government has spend US Dollars 105 million, what has it done in a practical manner to tap into the 109 billion dollar call- centre outsourcing business worldwide? We have learned from the facts available that India is doing 39.6 billion, Philippines is doing 3.26 billion, and Kenyan entrepreneurs, after the Government has spent that kind of money, are doing US$105. What has the Government practically done to assist local entrepreneurs who want to set up call centres and outsourcing business, so that we can create the number of jobs that the Government has targeted to create for the youth of this country?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Ministry has just completed the Phase 1 of training applicants, and we have already started evaluating the proposals by the graduands. Soon we will be able to facilitate acquisition of loans through the World Bank, so that they can set up these villages in the 210 constituencies. Over and above that, we have already initiated some pilot projects on the same in Garissa, Malindi, Mukuru and other places. About the call centres, I know even Mr. Mungatana, although I cannot prove it, knows there are some few call centres in his constituency. I believe that given the pace at which we are moving, we can attain the expectations of Mr. Mungatana.
Thank you Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Assistant Minister has said that as part of increasing the optimum use of this system, they are introducing mobile
Mr. Speaker, Sir it is not the intention of the Ministry to bring on board white elephant projects in Kenya. What I said in my reply is that we are still negotiating to see how viable the mobile computer laboratories are. We have not yet established them. We are trying to look into the issue so that at the end of the day, it does not become a loss to the country.
Thank you Mr. Speaker, Sir. Could the Assistant Minister tell the House the implementation period of this project and whether or not it is going to connect the entire country, or it is going to be in phases.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the National Fibre Optic Infrastructure is supposed to connect the 210 constituencies. In each constituency we intend to have one digital village. So eventually each constituency will be connected to the fibre optic cable. Currently we are working on meeting the challenges of the last miles, going beyond the constituency headquarters; we are exploiting other technologies like internet over power line and satellite communication to address that one. That one is supposed to go hand in hand with the electrification programme by the Government. So I have no doubt that your concerns will be addressed.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, you remember that during the Budget, there was a proposal to create what the Assistant Minister is cleverly calling âmobile computer laboratories.â which were just buses to carry computers into our constituencies. The issue was that the bus itself, its maintenance and everything would cost more than the computers which were to be carried in it. Could the Assistant Minister assure this House that he will re-allocate the funds for buying those buses and the white elephant project into a fund that will be used to buy computers to schools in various constituencies so that public money can be optimally utilized and not wasted in funny ventures?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we will look at that proposal amongst the many floated. I have said that the Ministry is consulting with the Departmental Committee on Energy, Communications and Information and once we arrive at a decision which we feel is the best way forward, we will go by it.
asked the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs:- (a) whether there are programmes to expand prison facilities in the country to cater for the rise in population and crime rate; (b) what security arrangements are in place to curb spread of various categories of diseases including HIV/Aids, considering the immoral acts that are rampant in prisons; (c) whether the Community Service Order (CSO) and Probation Service (PS) sentences are working free of corruption, and whether there have been gains arising from the operationalization of these orders; and, (d) when the Government will establish GK Prisons in Uriri District.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) The Office of the Vice-President and Ministry of Home Affairs has plans to expand prison facilities in the country; indeed, in all district administrative centres. Already four new prisons have recently been constructed. A construction of nine others is also in progress. The Ministry has also completed construction of new inmate accommodation blocks in existing prisons with the latest completion in 12 stations. Thirty six others are currently under construction. Beyond expansion of prison facilities, the Ministry is exploring other methods to ease inmate congestion, particularly the PS and CSO programmes under which offender correction is undertaken on non-custodial basis. (b) Some prisoners, both remand and convicted, are usually admitted in prison already with infectious and ill health quite akin to what obtains in the communities that such inmates will have come from. Prison authorities, therefore, conduct medical examinations including VCT on all incoming prisoners as quickly as possible and commence treatment where applicable besides holding cases of infectious disease such as TB in exclusive facilities. The Prisons Department also runs sensitization programmes to control the spread of HIV/AIDS; intensive surveillance systems are applied to deter potential cases of unbecoming or abnormal behavior. (c) The CSO and PS including the after-care programmes run smoothly on the highest possible standard of professional integrity. Furthermore, the Ministry has very strong corruption prevention structures and programmes including specialized committees, appointment of integrity assurance officers and open-day activities. Thirteen cases of professional misconduct were reported in the last 10 years since the CSO programme began. Five of the cases were found to be invalid, four were removed from the service and four are before the courts. Tremendous gains have, therefore, accrued since bringing into operation of the CSO programme. The programme serves about 52,000 offenders every year and has so far served a total of 520,000 offenders since its inception in 1999. These huge figures translate into cost-saving since this population would have had to be maintained in custody at the expense of the taxpayer. The CSO programmes help to maintain family ties and values between the offender and the kith and kin. These are ties that could have been severed in case of custodial sentence. The programme is flexible enough to allow the offender to continue with usual employment and fend for family and dependants. The programme affords the community a sense of justice since the offender pays reparation through work on community projects. The programme also creates opportunity for employment in that some offenders are eventually offered formal employment and retained at the local institutions. (d) A prison facility will be established in Uriri District in accordance with the existing plan of the Ministry to establish a prison facility in every administrative district and more so where we have a magistrate court nearby. However, the programme is heavily dependent on the availability of funds, the land upon which the facility can be situated and on the hierarchy of priority that is in turn based on proximity to an existing facility. Meanwhile, districts without a prison will continue to use one or others that are nearest to them. In the case of Uriri District, construction work will commence as soon as funds and land are available and in consideration of allocation over needs of the district
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs for that detailed answer. Now that he has said that if we have land in Uriri, they can build a prison in that constituency, I confirm to him that Uriri is now a district with its headquarters in Uriri Shopping Centre. That district has land and he can build a prison there. What has the Government done now that it has been confirmed that there is an outbreak of cholera and other diseases in our prisons countrywide? Could the Vice- President and Minister for Home Affairs consider putting up fully-fledged medical facilities in all our prisons?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the question of land, I thank my colleague, Mr. Omollo and request him to do that in writing. Since there is land, we will talk to our friends in the Treasury so that we can consider establishing a prison in Uriri Constituency in the next financial year. However, the hon. Member should bear in mind, and this is on a light touch, that he should not be loud about this because his constituents will say that he wants to get them into prison. This is a matter he has to be pretty careful about. However, you create employment opportunities with the establishment of a prison facility. Secondly, I will issue a Ministerial Statement on cholera outbreak in our prisons soon after this.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, at one time, the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs had promised to relocate Wundanyi Prison to some other place. Could he donate it to Uriri because that prison does not reflect the criminal behaviour of the Taitas? We are surrounded by three Government of Kenya (GoK) prisons and we do not need them. Could he consider taking Wundanyi Prison to Uriri?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the very action of relocation might end up being as expensive as giving Uriri its own prison. Besides, I think the Member for Wundanyi would be well advised to check when we actually sent some transport. There was absolutely no transport for the officer in charge and other officers in Wundanyi. I thought the Member for Wundanyi would actually be thanking us for having moved very swiftly to sort out transport problems in that place. I am sure if you check with the people on the ground, they will not want to hear of relocation.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, one of the oldest and largest prisons in Kenya is Kodiaga Prison in Kisumu, which was designed for 800 inmates. But, now, it accommodates in excess of 8,000 inmates. What is the rationale behind building or expanding other prisons, when the Ministry is not improving conditions and affordability of health in Kodiaga Prison?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, my learned friend knows that when I last attempted to answer a supplementary question from him, both of us agreed to visit
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Members are consulting very loudly. We cannot hear what the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs is saying.
Order, hon. Members! Will you, please, lower the level of your consultations so that the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs can be heard?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, my good friend and old boy of Kitui School has done me proud. I can understand why hon. Members do not want to discuss matters relating to prisons. It is the last place that one wants to visit. But I think it is important because we are discussing the plight of citizens of this country, who are currently resident in our prison institutions. Therefore, I consider this a very important matter.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was just responding to hon. Olago. I had said that Kodiaga Prison will receive very special consideration. Already, we have actually set up a meeting where we are going to discuss, in some greater detail, what we will do at Kodiaga Prison. My friend, the Minister for Medical Services, has actually agreed with me that in Kodiaga and Kamiti prisons, we need fully-fledged district hospitals in order to deal with the plight of some of the inmates who become sick because of the large population.
Last question, Member for Uriri!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to ask the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs what happened to the reform programme which was initiated by his predecessor. Was the programme meant to give television sets and executive buses only or was it also geared to offer medical facilities and expand our prisons?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the programmes initiated by my predecessor, Uncle Moody, have actually been intensified. Wherever we go, of course, we do receive requests for several of those things, including television sets. But when we took over, we realized that we had a problem, for instance, with bucket toilets, which is what prison officers were using in several of our institutions. We have now gotten rid of those. We also realized that inmates were using pieces of mattresses as well as blankets as toilet paper when they were in custody. All those things are now history. As I said, we have actually intensified the reform process. We are committed to implementing the report by Maj. Madoka. I think the House realizes that I actually tabled the report of the Madoka Committee before the House. That is what we are following as a blue print.
asked the Minister for Regional Development Authorities:-
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) The three divisions are within the Cherangany Hills Watershed which is experiencing environmental degradation due to encroachment by settlers and logging. However, the Authority has developed a project proposal for conservation interventions and is currently sourcing for funds. Meanwhile, three tree nurseries with a capacity of producing an average of 100,000 seedlings per year have been established at Sambirir, Kabetwa, Kapyego and Cherangany to address the environmental concern. (b) The Ministry has put the Authority under a performance contract in which development projects, programmes and activities are part and parcel of the performance targets that the board and management of the Authority are expected to implement within a stipulated time frame. In addition, the board is under instructions to ensure that they implement projects that impact positively on the surrounding community.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is now two decades since LBDA was started. It appears that it was designed for only some specific regions. Is the Assistant Minister aware that, even after 20 years, there is nothing on the ground? Not even a tree nursery has been developed in Cherangany Hills by LBDA?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is true and the hon. Member has correctly put it. But the problem is that Marakwet East and Marakwet West constituencies are under two regional development authorities; the Kerio Valley Development Authority (KVDA) and the LBDA. I think there has been some misplaced understanding in terms of the boundaries; where each authority covers in the district. But I have assured the hon. Member that, that is going to be a thing of the past because there is a section around Cherangany that has been left by both development authorities and the boundary has now been put very clearly. I have also assured the hon. Member that we will be with him on the ground to ensure that conservation--- I am so much inspired by the hon. Member because he is really supporting our conservation efforts. We are going to ensure that through the two regional development authorities, conservation efforts will be undertaken.
Last question, Member for Marakwet West!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank the Assistant Minister for acknowledging the problem that has been there. We have been put between KVDA and LBDA. Now that he has understood that there is a problem, when will he come to the ground to understand the problems that are affecting the people? He had promised to do that.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I said earlier, I have a commitment with the hon. Member that in the forthcoming recess, I will be on the ground and we will ensure that the disparities are corrected.
Next Question by the Member for Ikolomani!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the second time, I rise to ask the Minister for Youth Affairs and Sports the following Question by Private Notice.
(a) Is the Minister aware that two Kenyan community football clubs, AFC Leopards and SOFAPAKA, which have qualified to represent Kenya in continental championships risk failure to participate due to financial constraints?
(b) What is the Minister doing urgently to arrest the above threat since the two teams have to immediately go into camp for training?
Is the Minister for Youth Affairs and Sports not yet here? Mr. Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs, we appear to have a chronic problem with this Ministry. Can you hold brief for them and give an account?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to register my sincere apologies to the hon. Member for Ikolomani. I give an undertaking that I will be taking up this matter with the Minister for Youth Affairs and Sports, Prof. Sambili, and if it is possible to have it heard next week.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the two Assistant Ministers in the Ministry of Youth Affairs and Sports are on record as having said that they are not going to answer any Questions on behalf of the Minister, because of their domestic problems in the office. Could the Chair kindly direct that the Office of the Prime Minister - I saw his deputy here â takes over and answers the Question, since he is responsible for supervising the Ministries?
Order, hon. Members! I will defer this Question to Tuesday next week and, hon. Vice-President, will you, please ensure that the Ministry responsible comes to offer an explanation as to why apparently â and mark that word âapparentlyâ â the Ministry is not functioning?
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for Dr. Khalwale to say that a matter is on record, without specifying as to whose record it is?
Order! Hon. Michuki, that may very well have been a valid concern, but unfortunately, it comes too late after I have already made directions. My directions will, therefore, stand!
asked the Minister for Agriculture whether he could consider writing off the loans advanced to farmers in Njoro, Lare and Mau-Narok divisions, in view of the total crop failure caused by prolonged drought and post-election violence.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply: My Ministry, the through Agricultural Finance Corporation (AFC), will treat each case reported on its own merit and in cases where individual clients fall into extreme distress for reasons beyond their control, the following three options will be considered:- (a) Rescheduling of the loan where the business option is still operational. (b) Rescheduling where it is realised that the enterprise needs fresh injection of capital to rehabilitate the incomplete project. (c) Through negotiation with the client where the client needs more time for the repayment. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I agree with the Assistant Ministerâs answer, but I will ask one more question. Surely, with all the due reasons given, we have some farmers in my constituency whose properties and crops were destroyed during the post-election violence (PEV) and thereafter, they became Internally Displaced People (IDPs). When they returned to their former lands, they were caught up with the drought. Mr. Assistant Minister, surely, however, much these people would like to repay the loans, whether it is by rescheduling or by refinancing; how does a person who is crying for food - we are now relying on relief food---
Order, hon. Member for Molo! Can you, please, come to the Question quickly?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, my question is whether the Ministry can write-off the loans for farmers in Njoro, Lare and Mau-Narok divisions because they are unable to service them?
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. As much as the Ministry sympathizes with the situation in Molo arising out of the PEV, the hands of the AFC are tied. The corporation can only undertake general write-offs of loans where authority has been granted by this House following a Sessional Paper laid on the Table.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, from the Assistant Ministerâs answer, I guess that the Government does not have funds to write-off these loans, and since these people were displaced because of the PEV and the substantive Minister is very effective in mobilizing Harambee, can the Ministry consider organizing Harambee to finance these loans instead of writing them off?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, Harambee are not in the docket of the Ministry of Agriculture. The hon. Member can direct his energy somewhere else.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I welcome the efforts the Government is making to save the farmers from this disaster. Could the Assistant Minister extent the same gesture to some other parts of the country? It is not only parts Njoro and Mau-Narok divisions, which were affected because of failure of rain; but there are other parts of the country which were also affected. There have been a lot of crises where farmers are not going to harvest because of lack of rain.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The efforts which I have just stated are available across the entire country. Those are the options which the AFC undertakes in the entire country to bail out the farmers or the clients, who are in distress. So, the clients can just visit the AFC and renegotiate on the best options so that they can be able to move forward with their business.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the opportunity. The Assistant Minister has indicated that they only write-off loans with the approval of this House. Is the Assistant Minister aware that there was a resolution by the House that the AFC loans be written-off because of what the farmers went through during the PEV in the last session? If so, why have they not brought a Sessional Paper for approval by this House?
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Yes, there was a general write-off of the AFC loans, which was carried out in 2004, after the approval by Parliament, through Sessional Paper No.1 of 2002 for the farmers affected by drought and other natural circumstances. There is a due process which AFC follows before the write-offs can be done. As at now, due to the PEV, the AFC is doing the due diligence to determine which loans cannot be repaid. Thereafter, they will give us a report which will be forwarded to the Cabinet and subsequently a Sessional Paper will be generated and presented to this House. Once the Sessional Paper is approved, we can comfortably start a process of writing-off the loans.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do agree with the Assistant Minister, but I will request him whether he can replicate what the Minister for Health did. He ordered the write-off of the bills of those patients who were detained at the Kenyatta National Hospital, because they are in the same Government. Even the Minister for Agriculture can do the same and write-off these loans for these Kenyans who are dying. They do not have anything. Their small farms will be auctioned. Mr. Assistant Minister, can you be serious? If that is not the case---
Order, hon. Kiuna! Mr. Assistant Minister, do you have any response?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I sympathize with the people who were mostly affected by the PEV. We anticipate further problems due to the issues which are coming up in the Mau Complex because most of the farmers will be moved forcibly out of their land, as their title deeds are charged. Once they move out of Mau area, they will not be able to repay loans. So, once the Governmentâs resettlement programme is complete, we shall be able to move forward and do a Cabinet Paper. Once we get the authority of this august House, we will be able to decide the fate of all those loans. Thank you.
Order, hon. Members! Because where we have reached we are on time, I am afraid, that will bring us to the end of Question Time. The last two Questions are deferred to Wednesday next week.
We have two Ministerial Statements to be delivered. We will begin with the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs. Next Order!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I wish to make the following Ministerial Statement in accordance with the direction of the Chair. The Ministerial Statement has to do with the outbreak of cholera at the Kamiti Maximum Security Prison. The Ministry of Home Affairs confirms, with much regret, the outbreak of what has since been diagnosed to be cholera at the Kamiti Maximum Security Prison on the nights of 20th and 21st November 2009. The outbreak was first reported in Block B of the inmate residential quarters where it presented itself initially in the form of diaorrhea and vomiting. The condition spread to other prisoners and also to other blocks namely blocks A, E and F. A total of 59 inmates have been affected by the outbreak. In all the cases, prison authorities evacuated the affected persons to the prison healthcare facility for observation and treatment. Some 14 patients required close observation and they were transferred to Kenyatta National Hospital. However, by the next morning, which was Sunday 22nd, the number of those affected prisoners had increased to 73, with two more being referred to Kenyatta National Hospital. The number of affected inmates had risen to 81 by the end of that day. No new cases have since occurred. That is to say that the cholera outbreak had by Sunday evening been brought under complete control. The current status is that all patients admitted for cholera treatment have been discharged. However, six patients remain admitted at the Kenyatta National Hospital and one at the Kamiti Maximum Prison Hospital on treatment for other non-cholera related illnesses. Out of the 81 cases of the infections, nine succumbed to the attack and passed away. The first death occurred at about 5.00 a.m. on Saturday, 21st November, the second at 6.00 p.m., the third at 6.30 p.m., the fourth at 10.00 p.m., the fifth at 10.15 p.m. and the sixth at midnight. The seventh death occurred on Sunday 22nd at 1.00 a.m., the eighth at 1.30 a.m. and the ninth at 9.20 a.m. Prison authorities commenced remedial measures when the incident was first reported to the night guard. The problem was dealt with by a team of high ranking officials from relevant technical departments of Government to take three professional measures. The first measure was to transfer the affected persons to hospital and to commence treatment immediately. The second measure was to prevent the spread of the infection to other prisoners as well to the officers through administration of a prophylaxis or doxycycline. The third measure was to investigate the cause and source of the infection. The experts involved in this investigation included the Director of Public Health and Sanitation, the Provincial Medical Officer, the City Council Chief Medical
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Once again, I would like to direct a question to the Vice President. Aware that this problem has been unprecedented and the whole thing has been triggered by serious congestion at the prison hospital, aware that we have lost 18 lives at the prison, could he, or the Ministry for that matter, consider giving financial assistance to the families affected because I know that some of the relatives of the prisoners at the Kamiti Maximum Prison are very poor, indeed? That is in terms of supplying coffins and any other assistance that may be required.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank His Excellency the Vice- President and Minister for Home Affairs for giving that response and the immediate measures they have taken as a Ministry. I would like to know what long term measures they are putting in place to prevent such a disaster from taking place in our prisons. We understand that the hygiene situation at the prison is wanting and the sanitation is also not good.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, just a correction on what my friend, Mr. Njuguna has said. There were nine deaths and not 18. If he is interested, I could read out the names. However, I do not think that is of interest at this particular time.
The Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs, deliver your Ministerial Statement now.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, with your kind permission, I would like to issue a Ministerial Statement on the progress of Constitutional Review process in the country.
It will be recalled that on 17th November, 2009, my good learned friend, the hon. Member for Garsen, Mr. Mungatana, rose on a point of order to seek a Ministerial Statement on the progress of the Constitutional Review process. The hon. Member sought
Order! Order, Mr. Minister! How long do you still have to go?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have another five or six minutes.
Can you restrict yourself to seven minutes! If you please, look at the clock?
I will, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
We will finish at 4.30 p.m. You must stop that Statement.
I will, Mr. Speaker, Sir. You know how much I respect your ruling.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is important that I mention that Mandera, Wajir, Moyale, Marsabit, North Horr, Maralal, Baragoi, Loiyangalani, Lodwar, Kakuma, Lokichoggio, Lokitaung, Lokichar, Harare, Hola, Garsen, Lamu, Tana River, Kwale, Lunga Lunga, Oloitokitok, Isebania, Kuria, Lokari, Chemalingot and others, are scheduled to receive these documents through chopper delivery, probably starting tomorrow. We are on top of this.
In addition, the Committee is travelling across the country to all the eight provinces to physically distribute the draft. As for Parliament, all MPs have already been given a total of 240 copies through the National Assembly and I believe the documents are with the Clerk. If one of us has not collected it, please, do so. Yesterday, another 500 copies for each legislator for his constituency were brought. For political parties, 47 registered political parties have already collected their copies. For reference groups, each member of the reference groups and all institutions have been given. For the media, each house has been given a document for disseminating to the public. For Government departments, most of the 42 Government Ministries have collected copies. For civil societies, all major umbrella organizations with countrywide networks have received the
Any hon. Members seeking clarifications?
Proceed, Mr. Affey!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank the Minister for such a comprehensive Statement and I must begin by also thanking the CoE for giving us the possibility to discuss this Harmonized Draft Constitution so that this country gets a new constitutional dispensation.
The Minister must be aware that the greatest threat to a new constitutional dispensation is the political class in this country. I do not understand what arrangements the CoE has to engage directly with the political parties so that the debate in the funerals and harambees which, in most cases tends to misinform the country, stops so that the real people, who are the stakeholders, get consulted very quickly so that we ease the burden we place on the CoE.
Secondly and more fundamentally, Mr. Speaker, Sir---
Order, Amb. Affey! There is a lot of interest on this issue and I would just allow one clarification per hon. Member.
Proceed, hon. Mututho!
Mr. Minister, please, take notes.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. You heard the Minister say that they will use the chiefs to distribute the documents and said that the chiefs should be sacked. How possible is that?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think the Minister has acknowledged that the document is still in the process of being circulated yet time started running from the 17th of November, 2009. This is the second week. The 30 days are already being counted. What is the Minister going to do about the outcry by members of the public for the extension of the period of the 30 days?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as time ticks away â I do agree with the Minister that, indeed, we should not tamper with the time that is in the law â what steps has the CoE taken to ensure that the ordinary mwananchi down there who has got no access to the web can drop his or her view at a particular collection point near his or her home?
Mr. Farah, are you still interested?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, my sentiments were, by and large, expressed by hon. Olago, but just one other bit. Hon. Minister, we come from constituencies that are as much as 17,000 square kilometres, 23,000 square kilometres and in the case of North Horr, it actually goes up to almost 30,000 square kilometres. Even if the hon. Members were to go out there and try to educate the people in vernacular, it would take ages. What kind of other mechanisms do you have in place to make sure that Kenyans in the four corners of this country are carried along in understanding the content of the Harmonized Draft Constitution? And they just do not have to be told what to do by the political class.
Mr. Minister, you may now respond!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to salute hon. Members for those very important questions. I would like to inform Mr. Affey and the House that the engagement with politicians and for the information of the House, this process has been underway for some time now. I want to thank the leaders of the Grand Coalition Government for making it possible to have consensus seeking committee formed. The committee has been working and will continue to work. We are trying as much as we can to make sure that we reach out to all the politicians. However, Members of Parliament themselves are in the political class and there is an extensive period starting from 18th December, 2009 in which Parliament is going to be engaged. I have just alerted the House that it may, in fact, not have to wait until March, 2010 to resume. It may have to come earlier because the reports will be presented in February, 2010. Therefore, knowing that the Parliamentary Select Committee is donated by this House, I am comfortable and I need not go into the details of this joint coalition committee seeking consensus. I want to salute hon. Members and assure them that I think we will be able to reach out to them. As for the political parties, I am also happy to say that only last weekend, National Democratic Institute (NDI), and I want to thank them, organized a retreat for the political parties in Naivasha to seek consensus. The reports are available and I hope that the secretaries general of the various political parties will share the reports of this work which is very encouraging. The one of last weekend declared a ceasefire. I am happy to say that since that weekend, I have not seen a violation of that ceasefire - if I may use that expression. We are discussing this quietly among the various political parties. Mr. Mututho, as a matter of fact, the chief is the only provincial worker who has not been recommended for removal. However, this is not a document cast in stone. We still can use chiefs. If you feel that you want to retain the Provincial Administration, feel free to make such a comment so that we can compare that with what the rest of the country is saying. If we find that the majority favours that, then that is the way we will go. Again, it is not cast in stone. It is not enough to write to newspapers, or speak in radio stations, or appear on television, write! Take a piece of paper and write to the Committee of Experts.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Agriculture. Considering that pastoralists have suffered three years of continuous drought; aware that as a result some of the pastoralists have taken loans from the Agricultural Finance Corporation (AFC) and thereby used their ranches as security or collateral to secure these loans; given that this prolonged drought has continued to affect the pastoralistsâ ability to service the loans; aware that Kenyans engaged in other forms of
On a point of information, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Is Mr. Affey willing to have the information?
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am a pastoralist. What the hon. Member has requested the Government to do is very important. On 12th March, 2009, I had an opportunity to speak to the two principals when they visited my constituency to launch Kazi kwa Vijana Programme. I mentioned that pastoralists are suffering and the AFC is harassing them. As you may have realized, pastoralists were in the process of losing their livestock. They have lost about 80 per cent of their livestock. The two principals promised that the Government was going to look into this matter. I wrote to the Minister for Agriculture requesting that since AFC is an institution and it should not lose money, the Government should bail out the farmers by paying AFC the amount of money owed by the farmers. I got a reply from the Minister for Agriculture that he was to table this request to the Cabinet. It is now about six months since that time. So, I would like this issue to be taken seriously by the Government.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Maj-Gen. Nkaisserry, you are a Member of the Government! Much as the Chair would want to respect the passion and the calamities that your own pastoralists are suffering, this is the same Government you are serving. So, you need to be talking to your Government. Are you now going to make an undertaking on behalf of the Minister for Agriculture? Where is the Minister for Agriculture?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have given this information as the Member of Parliament for Kajiado Central Constituency, and not as a Member of the Government; because I am affected as a pastoralist.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. It is up to the Chair to uphold the dignity of this House. An hon. Member has asked a Question. All of us agree that it is important, and I think the Assistant Minister, who is on the Government side, can only undertake, on behalf of Government, to respond to it; and not to make further requests.
Fair enough! The Chair takes note of that observation. Could a senior Minister make an undertaking, on behalf of the Minister for Agriculture,
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it will be issued on Thursday, next week.
Are you happy with that, Mr. Affey?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, let us have it on Tuesday.
The Chair directs that we have it by Wednesday morning, next week.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it will be brought on Wednesday morning, next week.
Yes, Mr. Olago!
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Last week, I sought for a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for State for Special Programmes, and she undertook to bring it today. She has informed me that she has the Ministerial Statement, and it is very brief.
Who is going to make an undertaking on behalf of the Minister?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we will endeavour to provide the Ministerial Statement on Wednesday afternoon, next week.
Yes, Mr. Letimalo!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a Ministerial Statement from the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security. On 21st November, 2009, at around 4.00 a.m. police officers surrounded a village at Holuko in Isiolo North District and indiscriminately shot and harmed villages, leading to the death of a woman and a 16-year old boy, and injured others. In that Ministerial Statement, I would like the Minister to clarify the following:- (a) what was the mission of the officers and who gave the shooting orders; (b) why the police abandoned the dead and the injured persons, instead of taking them to the mortuary and hospital, respectively; and, (c) what action the Government is taking, including the arrest of the police officers responsible for the killings.
Yes, Assistant Minister, Ministry of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we will provide the Ministerial Statement on Wednesday.
In the morning or afternoon?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we will provide it on Wednesday afternoon, next week.
Are you on a point of order, Mr. Koech?
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
What is it?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on 15th September, 2009, I sought a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Roads on the status of the Eldoret-Chavakali Road, but we immediately went on recess. I would like to know when the Minister will issue that Ministerial Statement.
Minister for Roads, when will you discharge that obligation?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will do so next Tuesday.
Fair enough! Dr. Naomi Shaban, you will have to issue your Ministerial Statement on Tuesday afternoon. We are constrained of time. So, yours will be on Tuesday afternoon. Next Order!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 6 and substituting therefor the following new clause- Amendment 6. The Fifth Schedule to the Customs and Excise Act is of Fifth amended â Schedule
(a) in the manner specified in paragraph 1 of the
First Schedule to this Act;
(b) in the manner specified in paragraph 1A of the First Schedule to this Act;
(c) in the manner specified in paragraph 2 of the First Schedule to this Act;
(d) in the manner specified in paragraph 2A of the First Schedule to this Act;
(e) in the manner specified in paragraph 3 of the First Schedule to this Act.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 9 of the Bill be amended by deleting the words âsix monthsâ, and substituting therefor the words âthree monthsâ.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 28 of the Bill be amended in the proposed Section 75A by deleting Subsection (1) (c).
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 29 of the Bill be amended -
(a) in paragraph (a)(i), by deleting the expression âparagraph 5(1)(c)â and substituting therefor the expression âparagraph 1(1)(a)â; (b) in paragraph (e)(i), by inserting the words âoutside the City of Nairobi or the Municipalities of Mombasa or Kisumuâ immediately after the word âmachineryâ appearing in the proposed paragraph (f);
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 44. Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, Clause 44 seeks to establish the Kenya Airports Authority Fund, and I think that is a very substantive move that requires a substantive Motion to be brought to this House. It would be very negligent on the part of this House if we were to go ahead and create a Fund in this manner without creating structures for managing it. The funds we are talking about are big funds. We are talking of funds in the range of Kshs2.5 billion to Kshs3 billion a year. Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, this is an attempt to cannibalize the Treasury. This is a way of mutilating the Treasury. The Constitution says that all revenues shall be paid into the Consolidated Fund. If we have to move away from that it is important that, that be brought up substantively. Secondly, if we allow this trend of cutting the arteries that feed the Consolidated Fund, then eventually we will not remain
I would like to very quickly support Mr. Ogindo. The reason is that if we do not pass this amendment then we will create a situation where this money will be reinvested by the Authority. The immediate effect is that if you do it for the first year, the second year until the sixth year when we go to the elections, you will have an account that will have an approximate amount of Kshs15 billion. This money will then be used by some people in this country to fund their campaigns, so as to perpetuate themselves in the leadership of the country. For that reason I support the amendment.
My main reason for supporting the amendment is that in the recent past we have had a lot of issues with the Kenya Airports Authority as a State Corporation. It is even under investigation by the Public Investments Committee. Giving it more powers to have more funds and to re-invest more funds in it would be negligence; so, I would like to support the deletion of this particular provision.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I think there is very big misunderstanding about this particular Fund. What this clause seeks to do is to amend the Air Passenger Services Act to enable the Kenya Revenue Authority, which is currently collecting this revenue, to remit the air passenger service charge collected directly to the account of the Kenya Airports Authority. The air passenger service charge is a fee collected to finance development and improvement of the airports facilities, and is, therefore, due directly to the Kenya Airports Authority, which is charged with the responsibility of spending. Currently, the charge is collected and remitted to the Exchequer for onward transmission to the Authority as A.I.A. This process has resulted not only in delay in remission of the fees to the Authority but also--- As a result of the funds not going directly, even when the Authority is undertaking development, because they do not have access to their own revenue, there are constant calls on the Central Government to provide guarantees, which are actually unnecessary since this money is eventually remitted to the Authority and is due to it. The situation is that prior to the introduction of the Kenya Airports Authority, the airports in our country were run by the Ministry of Transport. It was when they were run by the Ministry that the Exchequer used to collect that money on behalf of the Ministry of Transport. When the parastatal itself was formed, this money belonged directly to it. But there was never a change in the Act to allow for direct transmission by KRA to the
It may well be as the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance has explained but, in this House, apart from the Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade, we have the Budget Committee and the Mover of this amendment is a Member of the Budget Committee. If a key Committee of the House is not aware of this matter, then it means the House is in doubt. Since the money will still, according to the explanation of the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance, end up with the Kenya Airports Authority, for the time being let him streamline the operations of the Kenya Revenue Authority, so that there are no delays. Let Parliament first understand what is happening. The caution here is, when in doubt do not act. Before we finally understand this, this amendment ought to be supported. I beg to support the amendment and to caution that when substantive issues like this one are brought here, instead of giving us a lengthy explanation at the Committee Stage, the matter should come earlier so that the committees interrogate it. Once we are comfortable, we will be very supportive.
on a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. When it comes to the Finance Bill, the relevant committee is the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade and I seek your guidance on this situation. This is the committee that we report to and it is the one that is supposed to examine the Finance Bill. As the Treasury, we have done precisely what we are mandated to do. We took the Bill to the relevant Committee before bringing it to this House. So, I seek your guidance on that matter because it cannot be that we should report to ten different committees on the same Bill. It can only be one committee!
Order, Ms. Karua! The Minister is right! The relevant committee is the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade but when we are debating the Bill, an hon. Member like Ms. Karua can give her opinion. We will vote at the end of the deliberation to find out the side that carries the day. Proceed, Ms. Karua!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I was just saying that irrespective of which committee is the relevant committee, there are overlaps. The Budget Committee has a role to play. We cannot be asked hurriedly to pass an amendment if the House is in doubt or if we do not understand it. It is the duty of Government Ministers to find out where there are overlaps, issues and make sure that there is adequate consultation. It also means that doubts were lingering in the minds of hon. Members as the matter was being introduced. Once again, since this money will end up with the Kenya Airports Authority (KAA), why the hurry? Let us have time to understand this. With those few remarks, I beg to support this amendment.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I believe the amendment proposed by Mr. Ogindo is premised on the wrong thing. Having listened to the explanation, let me, first of all, clarify and take from where Ms. Karua has stopped. It will be unfortunate to introduce an amendment at this late stage without hon. Members getting the benefits to scrutinize it. This is what the amendment by Mr. Ogindo is trying to do. Hon. Members have not even understood what his amendment seeks to do. The explanation he has given that it is to prevent the money from being misused is not what the amendment was brought here for, in the first instance.
Order! Let him finish!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, what is contained in Clause 44 of the Finance Bill is very simple. It gives authority to the KAA to access the same money it charges at the airports. The KAA generates money which goes through a very circuitous route before it gets back to them. If we go by the explanation of the future devolved situations we are looking at, people should retain the money they charge at that point and utilize it for the development for which it is intended. I believe the argument by Dr. Khalwale that this is to create a fund for money for campaign purposes should be expunged from the records of this House.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, if he wanted to use this money for campaign purposes, he would not need to create a fund for it.
You would probably get it from other places where---
Now we understand!
This Government is getting out of the mischief the hon. Member is thinking about by disclosing that this money has been collected for the development of the airport. Therefore, it should go to the KAA Fund and be utilized for that purpose. So, I urge the Mover of this amendment---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. I think the Minister for Trade has misunderstood what Ms. Karua has said. The current situation is being changed by the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance.
Mr. Mbadi, you are on a point of order! Could you be specific on your point of order?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, but that is what I am explaining! I am saying the Minister has misunderstood Ms. Karua and I am explaining to him so that he can understand. Is it in order for the Minister to misunderstand and misinterpret Ms. Karuaâs comments? The current situation is that the Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA) collects money, passes it to the Treasury and finally to the KAA. The Minister wants to change that by channeling the money directly and that is why Ms. Karua is saying that since we have not understood the proposal by the Minister, why can we not maintain the status quo by deleting--- That is the amendment that Mr. Ogindo is referring to. So, the Minister should not misunderstand her comments by saying that it is Mr. Ogindo who has not been understood. It is the Minister who has not been understood by this House.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I believe the Finance Bill was tabled on 11th June, 2009 and the amendment we are talking about has been tabled today. I am referring to the amendment to delete Clause 44 which was tabled today and I am not sure how many hon. Members have looked at the amendment by Mr. Ogindo against Clause 44 which is in the Finance Bill. That is what I am referring to. I am saying that it is unfortunate that we have had three months to look at this Bill; it has gone through the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade; the Committee has looked at it and found it to be okay and at this late point we want to deny the KAA the money it requires to develop those airports. We will still come back to this House, as a Government, to seek guarantees even for monies when they are held in the Treasury. I urge hon. Members not to bring the fights between the two Committees before this House, but to have this amendment removed.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. I am not in either Committee so I am not bringing fights of the Committees before this House. First, is the Minister in order to suggest that? Secondly, is he in order to suggest that this amendment is improperly before the House and yet it has been approved and is on the Order Paper?
Mr. Kimunya, is that what you are saying?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I do not think I have said that this amendment is improperly before this House. I have said that this amendment has been brought to this House today. That does not mean it is improperly before the House. The amendment is on the Order Paper and is the property of the House. All I am saying is that the Finance Bill is not new. This Bill has been here for the last so many months. I was saying that it is unfortunate for us to consider this amendment which has been brought to this House today before we even internalise it and yet this matter has been discussed and agreed by the relevant Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade. I believe it is up to hon. Members and their conscience to think whether they want to do justice to the KAA and give it the ability to develop the airports. Do hon. Members want to deny it the authority to do that by taking all the
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. With due respect to the former Minister for Finance who is a very good friend of mine, is he in order to mislead this House that the amendments came today? When did he expect those amendments to come? Amendments only come at the Committee Stage which is today!
Mr. Ethuro, you have made your point very clearly. The amendment by Mr. Ogindo, that we are discussing came today. That is okay. You are just stating the same.
Exactly, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir! I am not sure what his point of order is but English is a difficult language. I urge that Mr. Ogindo withdraws this amendment in good faith so that we can make progress and give the KAA power to carry out the work it is doing by reinvesting some of these monies. In any case, as I have said, the money will still be collected and that is not the issue. They are still charging but for them to access it, it has first to go through a circuitous route. By the time they get it, it has been delayed yet they could get it directly and use part of it as security to get more money based on their cash flow. I do not think I can convince the hon. Member further, but I urge him to reconsider the amendment in good faith.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I am a Member of the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade. This issue was brought before the Committee and we deliberated on it at length. We were actually convinced that Kenya Airports Authority (KAA) needs a fund. We know for sure that there is a bottleneck that we are trying to address here. That is because Members of Parliament have travelled all over the world and seen other airports. The development of airports is a continuous process. We thought that to ensure that bid is actually done when it is necessary, those funds must actually be made available to KAA.
Mr. Temporarily Deputy Chairman, Sir, we also know that even from prudent financial management, if a fund is established and then funds are received there, it is even easier now to monitor how they are received and used so that, even for audit purposes, this issue is handled very adequately. Already, we have the Public Investments Committee (PIC) that can handle that issue.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, we are all in the Parliamentary Committees and on issues that concern different committees, there is always a reference issue that can be done. I remember the Chairman of the Committee on the Constituencies Development Fund (CDF) came to the Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade and we deliberated on these issues and we were able to get a common position. But being a Member of the Committee, I am constrained because I do not have the information which hon. Ogindo has at hand. So, could he withdraw his amendment so that we can proceed with the Bill?
Of course, there will be an opportunity to cast the votes.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I wonder whether at this stage we are creating another government in the name of KAA. I thought that it is the Kenyan Government which is in charge of collecting all the revenue to the consolidated account. If they are trying to bequeath that to KPA--- KPA has been collecting its funds directly, but what have they done with those funds, apart from us reading about scandals after scandals? Do we want to go the Kenya Ports Authority way? I think we should not create another government in the name of KAA. We are paid to come and give all these authorities money and we have never been tired of that. I want to support hon. Ogindoâs amendment.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I would like to persuade my fellow hon. Members to look at this issue seriously. First and foremost, if you look at the amendment proposed, the intention of the Minister was to ensure that we remove the bureaucracies that, obviously, bog down the process and create efficiencies, so that we can have a very competitive environment where we have airport authorities being able to quickly utilize funds that are collected by the passenger service department. So, my persuasion to the hon. Members is that if we are looking at Vision 2030 and having competitive airports authorities, we need to take this issue seriously. Let KAA access its funds as quickly as possible and free the Government from having guarantees that bog them down and stop us from getting other development funds. Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I would really persuade hon. Members to look at this issue and reconsider it, so that we are able to move on with our Finance Bill and free the Government to do its bureaucratic duties and carry out the airport services as quickly as possible.
Put the Question!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I think hon. Members want us to vote, but before you put the Question, I also want to support the amendment. Having listened keenly to those who are opposed to the amendment, I get more convinced that this sounds more like a campaign kitty. That is because I really do not see the reason why we are saying that we need to take time to put regulations on how to manage such a fund. Since there is no ample time now to do that, and given the fact that KAA will still not be denied the funds that it deserves, why can we not delete that clause and then take time as a House to put in place the necessary regulations to ensure that, that fund is actually not a campaign kitty?
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. Is it in order for hon. Members to start making allegations that an amendment brought here through the Finance Bill is intended to create a campaign kitty?
Indeed, hon. Dr. Kones, could you clarify to the House that issue of campaign money?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, what I am saying is that since it is ambiguous and does not look like it is regulated according to---
Hon. Dr. Kones, do you have information that the money for KAA can be used for campaigns?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, what I actually mean is that it is a kitty that is not---
On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir.
Hon. Odhiambo, I am the Chair! I will give you time. Dr. Kones, I am very specific. Do you have that information that you submitted?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, when the hon. Minister was contributing, he made the allegation that some hon. Members have made it look like---
No! No! Dr. Kones, you are not getting me! I heard you very clearly say that this Fund will be an avenue for campaigns. If that is not the case then---
On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir.
Hon. Odhiambo, that is the last time! Dr. Kones, if you do not have any facts to back your allegation, could you withdraw?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, it is not about facts, but let me withdraw. I said that it looks ambiguous.
Very well! Hon. Njuguna!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I am being affected by the debate that has been developed in this House. My observation is based on two points. Now, this issue is very critical and the whole nation is expectant of fruitful discussions on this particular issue that we have. But I think that when we are driven by certain feelings against personalities managing national institutions, we will not be heading anywhere. These inclinations will derail the entire work that we are doing for this nation. If we remember, we have very good work that is taking place at the Kisumu Airport. We want the airport to be opened immediately. If we had funds that are ready and released by the same Fund, we would have the entire entity ready for use in this nation. Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, this House is full of very competent committees which are not impeded from investigating or inspecting anything that we may decide on, or the House views to be directed by mischievous plans. I, therefore, oppose the amendment.
Order, hon. Members! I will now put the Question.
Clerk-at-the-Table, could you ascertain the number of hon. Members present? They should be 20 hon. Members as per the Standing Orders. They are more than 20 hon. Members. They are 22 hon. Members. Yes, there are more than enough Members seeking a Division. All right! Ring the Division Bell!
Hon. Members, we will now proceed from where we left from.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 47 of the Bill be amended in paragraph (b) of the proposed proviso by inserting the words âlong-term insurance business orâ immediately after the words âinvestments ofâ.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move- THAT, Clause 52 of the Bill be amended in the definition of âagencyâ by adding the following provisio at the end thereof-
âProvided that where such entity is a co-operative society, prior approval to provide the services shall be sought from the Sacco Societies Regulatory Authority established under the SACCO Societies Act, 2008.â
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move-
THAT, Clause 64 of the Bill be amended in the proposed Section 56A, by deleting the word âofficeâ and substituting therefor the word âoffence.â
There is an amendment to this Clause to be brought by Eng. Gumbo.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman. The Clause that I had proposed to amend concerns the work of actuaries in Kenya. We have had discussions with the Minister. In fact, what is emerging is that professional actuaries in Kenya have not endeavoured to have their practice embedded in our laws. We have
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:-
THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following New Clause immediately following the heading âPART V- MISCELLANEOUSâ as follows-
Amendment of Section 2 of Cap.5
30A. The National Assembly Act is amended in Section 2-
(a) by deleting paragraph (a) of subsection (2) and substituting therefor the following-
âThe persons for the time being holding the several offices specified in the first column of Part 11 of the First Schedule shall receive a sitting allowance at the rates respectively specified in the second column of that Schedule in respect of every meeting attended.
(b) by deleting the proviso to the subsection.
Hon. Members, there is an amendment on Clause 39A by hon. Wamalwa.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, due to the necessity for further consultations, I wish to withdraw the proposed amendment.
Hon. Members, New Clause 39A has been withdrawn by hon. Wamalwa.
What is it, Ms. Karua?
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. The New Clause 30A that has just been passed and was a new clause ought to have been read a Second Time because it is a new clause. But it has been passed as though it is a normal amendment. It is irregular and I think it ought to be regularized.
I remember another time we were sitting and it happened. That is not a properly passed Clause. We ought to revisit it.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, that is correct.
Hon. Members, give us a little time to consult and we will proceed.
Hon. Members, let us dispose of that issue raised by Ms. Karua.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. We want to contribute.
Order, Ms. Karua! There was an opportunity to contribute and you did not come to contribute. We have to move on!
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. You just proposed and you did not give us a chance to contribute.
I did! Order, Ms. Karua! You cannot hold us hostage!
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. In view of the fact that there is a lot of pending Business for the Finance Bill, I beg to move that the Committee of the whole House do report progress to allow for the completion of the Business of the Finance Bill.
(Mr. Kenyatta) seconded.
( The House resumed)
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that a Committee of the whole House is considering the Finance Bill, and has instructed me to report progress and seek leave to sit again today.
(Mr. Ojode) seconded.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth continue with its sittings until the conclusion of the Finance Bill as on the Order Paper.
(Mr. Kimunya) seconded.
Hon. Members, we will continue with the Committee of the whole House. The Clerk will now read the New Clause.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, the position is the same. So, I withdraw this new Clause.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, we consulted with the Minister and we agreed that since they have made a similar amendment â although I will be making further amendments to the amendment - I wish to withdraw my amendment.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, the position is the same.
Which is what?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, this is a matter that needed further consultations and I wish to withdraw it at this point.
The New Clause 74 and 75 will be moved by the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance.
Clause 74, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir?
That was a proposal!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move: THAT the Bill be amended by inserting the following New Clauses immediately after Clause 73 -
Mr. Ethuro, do you want to make a contribute to clauses 74 and 75?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I have amendments for the Third Reading.
Any contributions? Hon. Martha Karua!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I would just like to note that when we are reading a Second Time, explanations are expected so that the hon. Members pass what they know. In the absence of explanation by the Mover, it means that there may not be any good reason for passing the amendment. It is for that reason that I oppose.
What is your point of order, hon. Ethuro?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, in the light of Second Reading and Third Reading of a new clause, those are two distinct positions. I just wanted to confirm to the House that the reason I withdrew my other amendment on New
Mr. Minister, would you like to make some explanations on the clauses?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, these two clauses are in line with the Budget Speech as well as with discussions we have been having with the relevant Departmental Committees with regard to the constitution of the Constituencies Roads Committees and the operations of the Kenya Roads Board Act.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. Just to guide the House, we were dealing with Second Reading, in terms of proposing, but we still have the Third Reading to bring the amendments, as indicated to the Chair and the rest. In any case, that is why I was very clear. I made a statement. You cannot purport not to have heard me!
Let me consult a little!
According to the Clerks-at-the-Table, I have done the right thing. I have properly consulted. These clerks are our institutional memory and have the necessary expertise. So, we will proceed on.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir.
Order, Dr. Khalwale! We are on another area of the Schedule.
Anyway, what is your point of order?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, we have spent a lot of time on the amendment. In fact, we have negotiated with the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance, and the Minister for Roads. Both Ministers and ourselves are ready
Dr. Khalwale indeed, I am not objecting. I am with you. Let us try to get the right procedure to make sure that this appears correctly in the HANSARD. Alright, there is a document here.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir.
Order, Minister! Let us Proceed!
Order, Mr. Ethuro! We are just trying to correct---
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, - --
Order, Mr. Minister! Let us proceed on!
You are going back!
I am not going back! I am correcting an issue here to get the record right. Mr. Ethuro, please proceed!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I wish to propose amendments to Clause 74(a):- THAT, the following words after the words â22 per centâ should be added. The words are---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir.
Order! Mr. Ethuro; just a minute! Let me consult my clerks a little bit.
Mr. Ethuro, proceed!
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, protect me from Mr. Ojode! Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I wish to propose amendments which are properly placed before the House. They have been consulted upon and I speak in my
I propose that the following words after the words, â22 per centâ be added:- âwhich shall be deposited into a special bank account to be called the Constituency Roads Fundâ Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, the justification of this is that once the Minister has allocated the 22 per cent, he has not specified where the money will be kept. In the Committee deliberations, we had agreed on all those things. This is, therefore, just a reminder to the Minister that we had agreed and that a special account should be made and signatories will follow in subsequent amendments.
Any further contributions?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I want to agree with my colleagues that we are repeating ourselves. I think the matter had been closed. I have no objection so long as the document you have has the last words beginning from, âFundâ--- to be maintained in every constituencyâ, I want that to be deleted as read by Mr. Ethuro. If you read the first statement, it was being put in a special account called âConstituency Roads Fund to be maintained in every constituencyâ. There was no issue of banking the money. So, I agree with what Mr. Ethuro has proposed but I want it to be taken care of in the document that you have.
It will be taken care of. Any further contributions on the same?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I would like to repeat what I have read. We accept that there be an amendment to Clause 74(a) after the words â22 per centâ to read âwhich shall be deposited into a special bank account to be called âConstituency Roads Fund.â This cannot be âevery constituencyâ because there are some constituencies without banks.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. The Minister is not in order! The amendment has been brought by Mr. Ethuro, and we can only vote on that amendment. So, if the Minister wants to bring an amendment to the amendment of Mr. Ethuro, that is a different matter. Let him bring that amendment.
Mr. Bett, could you move a further amendment?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, it is not a further amendment. I think I have heard Mr. Ethuro clearly. He has read exactly what I am reading.
Mr. Ethuro, what I am getting here is that the following words be added: â22 per cent which shall be deposited into a special account to be called Constituency Roads Fund and to be maintained in every constituencyâ.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I agree with Mr. Ethuro. The only thing I am saying is that it has to be a special bank
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I just want to support the Ministerâs further amendment to my amendment.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I think it makes a lot of sense, except that we must recognize that it is not in every constituency that we have banks. So, the clause should now read that the account must be held in every constituency, which is very different from âfor every constituency.â
Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, would I be in order to amend the clause further by deleting âinâ every constituency and replacing it with âforâ every constituency.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, âbyâ every constituency.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, words can be very complicated, but it is very critical that the word âbyâ is used as opposed to âfor.â
I think the hon. Members have agreed. It will now read:- âAdd the following words after the words 22 per cent which shall be deposited into a special bank account to be called Constituency Roads Funds to be maintained by every constituency.â
Hon. Ethuro, you have another amendment to Clause 74(b).
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, Clause 74b(ii) be amended by adding the following words at the end of the word âauthorityâ; âand that the said per centum shall be equally distributed to the constituencies where Kenya Rural Roads Authority (KERRA) has the mandate.â
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, if you look at the existing KRB Act that we are proposing to amend, this portion that has been traditionally going to the districts is based on equitable distribution. The experience of âequitableâ distribution has meant that some constituencies get an unfair share than others. âEqual distributionâ means that all constituencies â because KERRA is a rural Authority, it may not affect all the constituencies. But in the relevant constituencies where KERRA has the mandate will be given the money. Once that money is allocated, the Ministerâs provisions for the regional manager--- If that regional manager has three, five or ten constituencies, he will get the money according to the number of constituencies that are under him. So, we are not taking money to the constituencies per se. This money will be given but allocated to the KERRA to be used as per the provisions of the amendments.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I rise to second the proposed amendment by hon. Ethuro. But, basically, because of my experience in my first year as a Member of Parliament, I have actually come to realize that the words âequitable distributionâ cannot objectively give the amount that goes to every constituency. We realize that whenever we use the word âequitableâ, you will find one district getting Kshs1 million and another one Kshs100 million. At that time, you are told that it is equitable. Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, we appreciate the fact that the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance still wants to get donor support and it is the reason why he wants to beg hon. Members that this money be channeled through Kenya Rural Roads Authority (KERRA) for purpose of attracting other funding. But for the end gain of having it equally distributed in all constituencies where KERRA operates, you realize that when we use the words âequitable distributionâ; actually that money is like pocket money for the Minister, the Permanent Secretary (PS) and the Managing Directors (MDs) of KERRA and Kenya Roads Board (KRB). It is actually their pocket money and you will find that for hon. Members to access these âequitable distributed fundsâ, they actually must go and line up in the Minister, the PS and the KRBâs offices. We want to stop that lining method and get this money equally! I beg to support.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. Did you hear the hon. Member say that this money is going to be pocket money for the Minister, the PS, and the MDs? If that is the truth, can the hon. Member substantiate?
Order! Hon. Lessonet, please, just withdraw that remark. I mean, what is pocket money? That is too causal!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, yes, I beg to withdraw the words âpocket moneyâ and actually replace them with the words, âthe money is actually available to the Minister, the PS and the MDsâ.
Fine! They use it with discretion!
They use the money discretionary, but we want now to agree that we can share it equally. Thank you.
That is good English!
Mr. Minister, any contribution to that addition?
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. I want to thank Mr. Ethuro and I want to indicate that this matter was negotiated on the basis that when Mr. Kenyatta made the statement in Parliament, he only touched on 22 percent. He did not touch on this 12 percent. Initially, it was 12 percent, but because the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance in his Budget Speech said that he would make available 22 percent, after consultations with him, we agreed to
Are you opposing or supporting?
I am opposing the amendment.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, the word that describes the road that connects two constituencies could be ambiguous or is not technically or logistically correct depending on how constituencies are situated. Some border water bodies and there is no road that connects, to them. The word âmayâ in liaising with the Ministry of Roads officialsâ, is the way we should put it.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I have looked at the amendment. The 10 per cent that has been given to KERRA was initially meant for district roads. What we have to understand is that when we talk about equal, we should know that we already have 22 per cent being distributed equally among constituencies. Constituencies differ in terms of road network. There are some with good roads, while there are some with bad roads. If you say that the 10 per cent will again be distributed equally, it will be unfair to the constituencies with very poor road network. Therefore, in my thinking, this amendment should not be passed so that those constituencies which are disadvantaged can get slightly more than those which have good roads. Therefore, I oppose.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. I would like to make a clarification before further contributions. I agree with the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance that the money will be used by the authority to allocate on the basis of need. What this amendment on equal distribution is talking about is that you have a certain amount of money which you want to allocate on the basis of a stringent formula that is not left to the whims of particular individuals to decide where to take the money. I thought I was very clear. If the regional manager of Turkana region, for example, has three constituencies, then he or she will allocate the money to the three constituencies to manage. The money should not be brought to the constituency per se . In that regard, we will look at all the roads in our constituencies and districts and allocate the money appropriately. However, the allocation formula is at the source of the money. Mr. Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance, how do you allocate the 10 per cent?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir.
Order, Mr. Mbadi! Proceed, Mr. Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, to be honest, we have deliberated the two Clauses with all the relevant Committees. That is the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade; the Constituencies Development Fund (CDF) Committee and the Departmental Committee on Transport, Public Works and Housing for three to four sessions. So, these explanations were given. The issue that has been raised by the CDF Chairman was contained in the Budget. I thank the Minister for Roads for complying and agreeing that we move these resources closer to the grassroots. I find it unfortunate that after we have discussed and agreed with a full explanation being given by the Minister and his team, as to why this is necessary - a position that was agreed by both Committees--- I thank the Chairman of the Roads Committee for standing by what we agreed. We now want to change and completely destabilise the operations of the Kenya Rural Roads Authority. If, indeed, the points that my colleague is making are valid, why can he not allow that debate to be done by the Minister for Roads and the Departmental Committee on Transport, Public Works and Housing to establish if they are valid and can be effected? It is not in good faith to do this, this way. Why do we go to our Committees? Why do we spend time with our Committee? For the last few weeks, I have gone through all these things for the purpose of hopefully coming up with a common position of agreement.
I oppose, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. The Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance, who is a very good friend of mine, knows the devil is in the details. We made agreements and asked him to come back to us with the amendments. He did not come with them until this morning. So, he cannot talk about the relevant Committee. The relevant Committee for Economic Stimulus is the CDF. More importantly, as a Member of this House, I have the right to raise issues on a particular matter. So, the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance should not seek refuge in a Committee that is friendly to him.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to confirm to this House that the CDF Committee is not unfriendly to me at all. We went back to the Departmental Committee on Transport, Public Works and Housing which is our Committee as detailed in the Standing Orders and we explained ourselves. It is at that stage that we conceded reducing from 12 per cent to 10 per cent. I want my colleagues on the other side of the House to appreciate the magnanimity that we have done on that issue. We have held many meetings, like my colleague, Mr. Kenyatta has said in good faith.
Is the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Transport, Public Works and Housing here?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, it is quite clear that the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance is very agitated. I quite agree with you that this is the moment to be agitated.
As I agree with him, may I beg with him to hold himself because this is democracy at play? When you are our Minister for Finance, you will have to listen to us.
Order, hon. Khalwale! You are standing on a point of order, right!
No, I am contributing!
Would you then contribute?
Yes, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I am doing so. We all have different styles.
Proceed on the subject matter we are talking about not personalities.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, the reason why hon. Ethuroâs amendment is justified is that the words âequitable distributionâ are not new in this country. We have had these words there. In spite of them being there, we find our roads in some parts of the country being what they are and others being what they are.
Whereas, I would like to agree with the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Transport, Public Works and Housing that they should be given this leeway, the problem is the Constitution of Kenya the way it is. If I am neighbouring a constituency where one of the movers and shakers of the politics of this country comes from and now the Regional Director of Kenya Rural Roads Authority (KERRA) is in charge of my constituency and that one of that big man, it will mean that he will simply lift up a phone and the money will go there. I, therefore, would like us to move the country a step higher and distribute the money âequallyâ, rather than âequitablyâ.
I beg to support, hon. Ethuroâs amendment.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I believe that the amendment we are looking at is to just remind ourselves that the said per centum shall be equally distributed to the constituencies where KERRA has the mandate. We have been talking a lot about inequality in the development of some areas in this country. By putting this money and now distributing it across all constituencies, we are actually denying the constituencies that have not had the benefit of development. We will be putting the money where it is not needed because it will be distributed. This is because KERRA has an operation there whether or not there is a link road. This money is to do
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. I support the amendment about counterpart funding, et cetera . This is only 10 per cent. The other 22 per cent is going to the constituency, making a total of 32 per cent. The 68 per cent is at the disposal of the Government. If the Government wishes to do affirmative action on it, there is enough money. If the Government has not, in the past, carried out any affirmative action on these funds, while we debate the best way to do it now that we hear intentions, that can be achieved by next year. Let us see how far we go with our rural roads with this kind of formula for this year.
What is that?
Should we put the question or should we continue to debate? Mr. Mbadi!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I was almost giving up. I do not know what is happening!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I think what we are trying to do is to divide the money equally, but the Ministry will still manage it. This idea of discretion and equitability which you are talking about has been there since Independence and we have never seen any change. I want to give you some examples: Recently, the Minister for Public Works who was the acting Minister for Roads even gave an approval that a section of a road in my constituency needed some funding. After that, a very junior officer in that Ministry refused to give me the money. Up to now, I have not even seen the money, yet it was very urgent. This kind of discretion is what we do not want. Give me my money, however little it is and let me use it in my constituency.
Okay. Should we put the question or should we continue to debate? We are at the Committee Stage and we can talk. Can we vote on this so that we can proceed?
Put the Question!
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. I think we need to be very clear that this proposed amendment by hon. Ethuro is actually going against the very principle he is trying to correct.
What this means is this; for the small constituencies like mine--- I do not mind this amendment because it actually favours my constituency. But I am looking at even his constituency. He is the one who is actually going to lose! We have said that when it comes to roads, they must be done per kilometer and when it comes to voting, per population. This is one of the things I was previously saying. For roads, it must be done per kilometer and not per population. I do not mind if---
Alright, let me put the question!
Hon. Ethuro, do you have further amendments to Clause 75?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, there is a proposal. Do I move all of them or I move one at a time?
Order, hon. Ethuro! First, I will propose Clause 75---
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I needed your guidance. Do I do one at a time or all of them?
Do one at a time, since these things are technical. For the sake of the record, proceed with Clause 75, (17(A)(2).
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, for your guidance, I wish to move the following amendment:- THAT, Subclauses 2(d) and 2(e) be deleted.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, the rationale here was that to ensure that the composition of these committees reflects the desire by the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance to look at these resources in terms of the Constituencies Development Fund (CDF) framework; that is a project managed by the community itself.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, to show my good faith, and I underline the words âgood faithâ, I agree to the proposal.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, after consulting the Minister, I wish to withdraw that particular amendment. I am withdrawing the amendment to (75 (17( A)(5) which had proposed to reduce the quorum from Chairman plus three other members of the Committee to Chairman plus two other members of the Committee. After consulting the Minister, his wisdom prevailed and we have no quarrel. At least, I am just demonstrating good faith again.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I accept the withdrawal for a good reason. If the quorum remains one and two, it means they are three people in the Committee. That would mean that the committee mentioned in Subclause 2(a) would meet without the secretariat.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. Is the hon. Minister in order to roam around like he does when the House is in business?
It is the Committee of the whole House. It is Committee Stage. That is okay.
Walking behind the Chair?
It is Committee Stage. It is all right. Hon Ethuro, can you approach the Chair?
Hon. Members amendment on Clause (17)(A)(5) has been withdrawn by hon. Ethuro.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move: THAT New Clause 75(17) (2)(e) be amended by deleting the words âProvincial Commissionerâ and inserting in place thereof âDistrict Commissionerâ. The reason is that the District Commissioner is nearer to our constituencies and districts than the Provincial Commissioner.
Who is seconding that proposal?
I second the proposal
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move: THAT, Clause 75(17)(3) be amended by adding the words âand that any two members from Subclause 2(a) designated by the Committee and the Kenya Rural Roads Authority (KERRA) accountant shall be the signatories to the Constituency Roads Fund account established by the constituencyâ after the word, ârespectivelyâ . Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, this is just to remain consistent with the earlier amendment by the Minister for Trade.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I second and agree to it.
Hon. Ethuro, I think you are through with your amendments.
Hon. Members, there is an amendment to the First Schedule by the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, the First Schedule to the Bill be amended in Part 1- (a) by deleting tariff numbers 2201.10.00 and 2201.90.00, and their respective descriptions and rates of duty appearing in item (1) and inserting the following new tariff numbers, descriptions and rates of excise duty in their proper numerical sequence â
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, the Second Schedule to the Bill be amended in Part A- (a) by deleting paragraph 1 and substituting therefor the following new paragraph- 1. Amend paragraph 6 by inserting the word âgazettedâ immediately before the word âexportsâ. (b) by deleting paragraph 2 and substituting therefor the following new paragraph- 2. Amend paragraph 9 by inserting the words âand taxable supplies in respect of tea or coffee bought from the auction centres, provided the tea or coffee is for exportâ immediately after the words âthe auction centresâ.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, there is a typing error in part âbâ which reads, âSection 6(b) and Section 6(c)â, the â(c)â should be â(d)â.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move that the Committee do report to the House its consideration of the Finance Bill and its approval thereof with amendments.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that a Committee of the whole House has considered The Finance Bill (2009) and approved the same with amendments.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.
(Mr. Kimunya) seconded.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Bill and thank the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance and the Minister for Roads for the extensive consultations they have had with Parliament. This, indeed, is the way forward. I would like to request my friend, Mr. Kimunya, to learn from that in future when he is appointed--- He can do it as well!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also rise to commend the Departmental Committees that examine all the Bills before they come to the Floor of this House. You have seen that in spite of the numerous amendments, we have achieved a lot this evening because of the consultations between the Ministers and the Committees. I also take this opportunity to thank the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance. It is time to work now that we have passed the Appropriations Bill and the Finance Bill. We want money so that we can develop this country.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I thank the Committees which consulted with us. I would like to inform hon. Members that we intend to move with speed as soon as the President assents to the Bill. We trust you, hon. Members. I urge you to use the funds now in your hands wisely for the benefit of your constituents, and by extension, the benefit of this country.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that The Finance Bill be now read the Third Time.
(Mr. Bett) seconded.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I believe it has been a very good afternoon. It is a culmination of a lot of discussion and I wish we could continue in the same spirit. I wish my old college mate could tone down his reactions out there so that we can make progress for the benefit of this nation. I believe there is enough money now for Mr. Ruto to use so that we can make progress in this country.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I merely want to add my voice to those who have said that the spirit of working, doing the right things and moving the country forward is what we should be doing. Of course, those of us from rather large constituencies will go home a bit worse off today but this is what the spirit of give and take is all about.
Hon. Members, that concludes the business on the Order Paper. Therefore, the House stands adjourned until Tuesday, 1st December, 2009, at 2.30 p.m.
The House rose at 7.40 p.m.