Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Could the Minister confirm to the House how Treasury plans to raise money for the growing list of emergencies, given that the process of the sale of the Consolidated Bank of Kenya has run into trouble after a group of investors moved to court to block it? (b) What stake does the Treasury (together with the Deposit Protection Fund) own in the bank and what percentage had been earmarked for sale in the 2009/2010 Financial Year? (c) Is it true that proceeds from the sale were to help plug the Kshs.168 billion budget deficit in the 2009/2010 Fiscal Year and that Treasury had projected to raise Kshs.6 billion from privatization by June 2011 and, if so, what will happen in the event that the Court case succeeds?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) The Government will raise money for emergencies through rationalization of budgets of various Ministries, implementation of expenditure cuts across the board, including reducing funding to projects whose absorption capacity is low and increase domestic borrowing. (b) The Treasury does not directly own shares in the Consolidated Bank of Kenya, but owns 50.2 per cent through the Deposit Protection Fund, this being Treasury’s contribution that went into establishing the bank. There is no definite percentage of the Treasury shareholding in the bank that has been earmarked for sale in the 2009/2010 Financial Year. (c) The proceeds from the sale of the Consolidated Bank of Kenya were not part of the privatization receipts that were envisaged in the Financial Year 2009/2010 Budget Framework. The outcome of the court case will, therefore, not affect the Government’s financial operations.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister has given a very good answer. However, he says that 50.2 per cent of the money which was under the Deposit

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Treasury invests directly in parastatal- owned companies and these are investments which are made through subsidiaries or through other funds. As I have explained, the Treasury, therefore, does not directly own those shares, but through the Deposit Protection Fund.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I appreciate the answer from the Assistant Minister. He has put it very clearly that this was not part of the Budget for 2009/2010. If these proceeds were not meant to support the Budget during that financial year, what informed the decision to sell the Consolidated Bank of Kenya?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Government is divesting. This is a policy of the Government for very many years. When shares of the Government in a given parastatal are sold, they are not necessarily meant to support the deficit in the Budget. Some time we use the funds to reduce our domestic borrowing which has a very heavy charge on our funds. It is very expensive money.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have heard a variety of statements being made by different Ministers of Government about privatization of different sectors, including the sugar industry. I would like to know from the Assistant Minister when the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Ministry of Finance will present the privatization programme to the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade as it is provided for under the law? We have been waiting for this for a long time. We get many statements indicating that privatization is going on. Yet, it is a requirement of the Privatization Act that we, as a Committee, must be told about any intended privatization of a Government body before it is done.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the privatization programme, before it is brought to Parliament, must be approved by the Government internally. Already, there are quite a number of them lined up. Once the Cabinet confirms them, they will be promptly presented to the Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade as required by law.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. We are aware that Ministers who belong to the Cabinet where these decisions are made have said publicly that the Cabinet has passed the privatization, particularly of the sugar sector. So, is the Assistant Minister in order to misinform this House that the Cabinet will first pass this decision before they come to the Finance, Planning and Trade Committee, while, in fact, the Cabinet has already done so?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, what I know is that we, as a Ministry, have prepared a Privatization Programme and a Cabinet Paper which we have presented. However, I am not aware of the statements by those Ministers.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. For a number of years now, the Government has just been selling parastatals to raise money to bridge the gap in the Budget. When all these parastatals are sold, how will the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Ministry of Finance bridge the gap as this seems to be an ill advised way of raising money to bridge the gap in the budget?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in fact, in future, we do not intend to include the sale of parastatals or privatization to bridge the gap in the Budget. This is

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Assistant Minister has said that one of the ways of managing such a deficit is to engage in expenditure cuts and avoid projects that are not going to start in the name of budget rationalisation. Does the Ministry believe in their budget as they present and also, that at some point they want to engage in budget rationalisation through budget cuts and through avoidance of projects that are already in the budget, and yet Kenyans are looking forward to their implementation?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we fully believe in the budget that we present to Parliament, but there are many factors that affect the non-implementation of projects, including very long procurement procedures, some of them involving even litigation which then delay the implementation of these projects. We reallocate funds because of unforeseen circumstances and the other reasons are the emergencies. For instance, we have to divert money to deal with emergencies such as floods which have now destroyed a lot of infrastructure. We have to find ways of cutting on some of our current expenditures, not necessarily projects, but we have to adjust our budget in order to meet some of these emergencies which were not foreseen. There is nothing to show that we do not believe in the budget we present here.

Is the Assistant Minister in order to talk about reallocation in budget when we are asking about the deficit mitigation?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Question he asked was about adjustment. He asked why we adjust budgets on projects which wananchi are expecting and, therefore, we might not believe in our budget. That is the Question he asked and that is the Question I answered.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think the youth are really wondering about the trend of sale of parastatals and other assets that this country acquired some time back. Could the Assistant Minister assure Kenyans here and now, that he will stop the sale of these parastatals with immediate effect now that we are going on with the budget process making?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the issue of privatization of parastatals and divesture from Government doing business is a Government policy. We are not about to abandon the policy and, therefore, I cannot assure the House that we are not going to continue with the sale of our shares in some of these parastatals.

Next Question! I understand Dr. Khalwale is out of the country on official Parliamentary business. So his Question by Private Notice is deferred to a date when he is around.

to ask the Minister for Information and Communications the following:- (a) Is the Minister aware that Multichoice (K) Limited has notified all its customers that effective April 1, 2010, charges for its various services would increase by US$3 each, despite the current high charges of up to US$110 (about Kshs8,000), and yet in South Africa, the country of origin, the company charges a mean rate of SA Rands 5 (about Kshs500)? (b) Could the Minister state what investment the company has made in Kenya to warrant such huge disparity in subscriptions, considering that the transmissions are from the same satellites, and also explain why the Communications Commission of Kenya (CCK), as the regulator, has allowed the company to use its monopoly in satellite TV transmission to charge Kenyans so exorbitantly? (c) Could the CCK compel the company to review the exploitative charges and levy similar charges in Kenya as South Africa?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security the following Question by Private Notice. (a) What were the circumstances under which Administration Police officers based at Wamba stabbed to death one Nakini Lemoyog and fatally wounded Lmaino Lekoloi at Kirish area of Uaso Division along Archers Post- Merille Road on 24th March, 2010? (b) What prompted the officers to force the two herds boys to take a poisonous chemical and what was the nature of the chemical? (c) What disciplinary action has the Minister taken against the concerned officers and when will the two sheep confiscated by the officers from the boys be returned to the owners?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) On 25th March, 2010, one Lolita Lekoloi reported at Archers Police Post that his son Lmaino Lekoloi aged 18 years came home bleeding from the neck. He informed him that they had been attacked while walking home by people who were in an Administration Police Land Rover believed to be from Rapid Deployment Unit in Wamba. He managed to escape after sustaining a cut wound on the neck leaving behind his friend Nakini Lomoiyok. When police visited the scene, they found Nakini Lomoiyok dead. Lmaino Lekoloi was rushed to hospital and admitted in fair condition. An inquest file No. 3/2010 has been opened. (b) Investigations are underway to establish if any poisonous substance was taken by the victims. Specimens samples were taken from the body of the deceased during the post- mortem on 29th March, 2010 and the same were taken to the Government

Mr. Letimalo!

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the fateful date, it was about 12.00 noon when the Administration Police officers met these two boys as they were leading two sheep to their home. They were beaten by the officers, forced into their vehicle and then they were taken to a bush where they were forced to take poisonous chemicals. The boy who survived had his heels burnt. I think the boy was stabbed after resisting and refusing to take the poisonous chemical. One of them was stabbed and killed instantly. What was the motive of forcing these boys to take the poisonous chemical?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not want to speculate the motive. This is a serious matter and we are going to take action against those who were involved. I would request the questioner, Mr. Letimalo, to give us time for the investigations results to come in order for us to discipline those who were involved in this heinous act. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to promise this House that we are not going to leave any stone unturned. It is quite absurd to force somebody to take a chemical. I do not believe in the 21st Century, a police officer can force anybody to take chemical substances. I would urge the hon. Member to let the investigation reports come out in order for me to take action. Already, we have taken the specimen samples to Government Chemist. We are just waiting for the analysis. Once this is ready, then we are going to act. I promise this House that we are going to act with the full force of the law.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Question touches on an issue of murder. One young man has died and from the words of the Assistant Minister, he has accepted the explanation from one of the victims that the suspects were in an AP Land Rover from Wamba. By now, while further investigations are being carried out, all or some of those APs should have been charged with murder. Why has this not happened?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, It would not be fair for people who are stationed at Wamba to the tune of 38 officers to be charged with murder. That is why we have opened a file for inquiry and urge that we let the law take its own course. Let the investigations be done and I will plead with my colleagues to let the law take its course. We have opened an inquiry file and once this person recovers, we are going to parade all those fellows who are at Wamba Police Post and the guy will be able to identify one or two officers who were involved in this act. We will take action.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. It has become a normal clause under which the Ministry of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security, always to hide under the fact that an inquest file has been opened. In March, 2008, two people were shot at by police in the Chardende area of Bura Constituency. Since then, despite several letters to the Ministry, they have always been claiming that an inquest file has been opened. So could the Assistant Minister tell us what is the benefit of opening inquest files which are never closed, which are never concluded and what is the average time within which an inquest file should be concluded?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, under normal circumstances, once we get some information about fellows who have committed a crime, we move with speed to

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the Assistant Minister in order to deceive this House because every Kenyan knows that it is a normal practice for the police to transfer their fellow colleagues whenever---

Order, Dr. Nuh! Ministers do not deceive this House. They mislead the House and this should not be the case!

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I withdraw that word in that context and replace it with “mislead”.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, when my friend talked to the Assistant Minister called “Ojode”--- I do not mislead or lie to the House. I have said that we will implement the reforms and get rid of the police officers who are tarnishing the good name of the Police Force. I want to assure this House that that is exactly what we will do. We will also retrain police officers so that they can do a good job.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Administration Police (AP) has been reputed to be disciplined over the years. However, in the recent past, incidents involving the AP have become too many. Even last week, about four people died in Kimilili Constituency following incidents related to the indiscipline of the AP. What will the Assistant Minister do to instill the discipline that has been lost in the AP, including changing the recruitment procedure which has deteriorated to the extent of the Kenya Police? That is why indiscipline is creeping in.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not aware of a case in the hon. Member’s constituency where three or four people were killed. If at all there was an incident like that one, I do not think it involved the APs. We have a force of 40,000 plus officers and not all of them are bad. One or two of them will have a weird kind of thinking. That is why we will retrain both the APs and the regular police officers. As has been mentioned earlier on, the officers have been doing a commendable job. I still believe that the APs and the Police Officers are doing a commendable job, save for one or two officers. The implementation of the police reforms will get rid of these fellows. I vouch that the majority of the regular police officers and the APs are doing a commendable job and I want them to continue doing the same.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I appreciate the promise given by the Assistant Minister that after investigations they will arrest the suspects. I seek the indulgence of the Chair on this matter. Since the station where these APs are based is known and the day the incident took place is known, could I request that the Assistant

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is a good suggestion. I have no problem in giving updates on what we have so far done on the ground. I can do that in a month’s time. That is okay.

to ask the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security:- Under what circumstances did Administration Police officers arrest the nine Agikuyu clan elders, parties to case No.HCC 71/2006 at Embu who are opposed to the illegal settlement on land LR No.13963 at Ngariama Settlement Scheme, and later released them without charge?

Hon. Members, hon. Peter Gitau is out on medical treatment and has communicated the same to the Chair. The Question is, therefore, deferred to a day when the Member will be in the House to prosecute the same.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Planning, National Development and Vision 2030 the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Why has the Kitui District Accountant refused to facilitate the use of the CDF Kitui West account at Equity Bank, Kitui Branch? (b) What is the Minister doing to ensure that the Accountant uses the bank account, considering that the constituency CDF account has now been rendered inoperational?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. Upon request by the Kitui West CDF Committee, I gave authority for the Committee to open an account at Equity Bank, Kitui Branch as required by the CDF Act. However, Kitui West CDF Committee forwarded documents to the bank to open the account without the District Accountant’s signature. The account was, therefore, opened but could not be operationalized without the mandatory signature of the District Accountant. I have followed up the matter and I can now assure the Member of Parliament that necessary action has been taken and the account is now operational.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank the Minister for his answer. Obviously, most of the Members of Parliament who are here do not have the benefit of the discussion we are having with you. However, with the indulgence of the Chair, this is an issue that I raised on 13th August, 2009. After the CDF Committee had struggled with the District Accountant to open an account with Equity Bank and he

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I agree that when the accountant got my letter, he was not sure that I had signed that letter. He needed clarification from the CDF Board because he could not write to me. The Board replied to say that I had actually given authority for that account to be opened. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the problem was that the Kitui West CDF Committee opened the account without involving the District Accountant. That is how the problem started. So, he felt that being a mandatory signatory, he should have been involved from the beginning. So, that is where the problem was, but it has been sorted out. I do not know whether the hon. Member has any other problem. I have a letter with me from the Accountant-General, dated 31st March, 2010, confirming that the letter written by me is acceptable according to the Act.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it has become a habit of District Accountants to attempt to centralise these funds and decisions that were de-centralised, for the committees to decide on behalf of the constituencies they manage. What measures is the Ministry putting in place to ensure that once the committees take decisions after thorough consultations, those decisions are implemented?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Act is very clear that if you need to change an account, there must be a minute by the CDF committee to that effect. As soon as there is a minute, you will require a letter from the Minister. So, the letter from Minister, plus the CDF committee minutes, must be forwarded to the bank before an account is opened. If you follow that procedure, I do not see how you will have a problem. Furthermore, I have not had any hon. Member coming to me to complain that he has had a problem to that effect.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Minister to mislead this House? All that he is saying is that the Kitui West CDF Committee did comply. I brought this Question to Parliament in August, 2009, but nothing has been done to our account. Is it in order for him to mislead the House?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not misleading the House. Kitui West CDF Committee forwarded the minutes without the signature of the District Accountant. The District Accountant is the mandatory signatory. In fact, the bank made a mistake to open that particular account because the signature of the mandatory signatory was not there.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Do you want to raise a point of order or ask a question? It had better be a point of order!

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you have heard the Minister rightly put it; that he wants the minutes of the CDF Committee signed by the District Accountant, who is not a member of the CDF Committee. Is he in order to mislead the House?

Order, Mr. Koech! The Minister did say that the District Accountant is a mandatory signatory to the account of the CDF; not the minutes. Did you say the minutes, Minister?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the basic procedure of opening an account is that you forward the minutes, plus the signatory card from that bank attached. The signatories are supposed to sign the card and have it attached to the minutes. That is what I said. The District Accountant must have signed the bank’s signatory card for that card to be attached to the minutes. First of all, you cannot open an account without the required signatories.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, even though the Minister is struggling hard to defend the District Accountant’s action, listening to him and the Member of Parliament who asked the Question, this issue arose in August, 2009. For you to be allowed to open an account, there must be minutes. What was missing is simply the specimen signature of the District Accountant. How come it took this District Accountant, who is a resident of that district, all these months to just send a specimen signature to the bank, if this is not sabotage?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think the hon. Member came in late. So, he never heard what I said from the beginning. Furthermore, I am not struggling to answer the Question. Let me assure him on that one. I said that it took time. The CDF Committee of Kitui West made a mistake in the first place. They forwarded the minutes without the specimen signature. The bank also made a mistake---

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Mr. Mbadi, can you wait until the Minister explains himself? What is out of order?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister is deliberately refusing to understand my question.

Order! Order, Mr. Mbadi! When you rise on a point of order, something must be out of order. The Minister is still trying to explain himself. He has not even completed explaining himself. Can you wait until he fully explains himself and then you can rise on a point of order?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Member of Parliament is complaining that it took a long time, from August, 2010 to date. I have explained that from the start, Kitui West CDF Committee forwarded minutes to the bank without the specimen signature of the District Accountant. That was the first mistake. The second mistake is that Equity Bank opened the account without the specimen signature of the mandatory signatory. It took time to correct those two mistakes. I have now told you that they have since been corrected.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. That is why I think the Minister did not want to answer my question. Once the account was opened without the specimen signature of the District Accountant, how come it took that period of time? Why could the District Accountant not just send his signature and the bank would automatically have recognised it. Why did it take all that time? Why are you refusing to answer my question, Minister?

What is out of order on the information he gave right now?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, what is out of order is that the Minister is trying to evade the question.

Order! Order, Mr. Mbadi!

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the question that I wish to ask the Minister touches on the fundamental provisions of the CDF Act. Kisumu Town West Constituency has been having a more or less similar problem from August, 2009. It forced me to write a legal opinion of the requirements of the Act. The CDF Act simply requires that the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) be supplied with the Minutes of the CDF Committee. That should be all. There is no provision in the CDF Act for the Minister to confirm or authorise. If there is, could the Minister tell this House which section of the CDF Act provides that the Minister must authorise?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, my colleague here is a lawyer, and he knows very well that previously, the CDF was under the Ministry of Finance. During that time, the signature of the Minister for Finance was required for purposes of opening an account. Unfortunately, I do not have the CDF Act here. If you have it, could you read Section 45(1)? It says clearly that, for proper control of the opening and closing of the accounts, you need the authority of the Minister. The Members of the CDFC are here. They can confirm that position.

Last question, Mr. Nyamai!

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister has just confirmed about Section 45 and he is asking about members of the CDF committee and I am one of them. I am fairly conversant with it. Could the Minister confirm that he still has that authority? He has just read a letter to us right now from the Ministry of Finance telling the District Accountant (DA) to open the account? So, who is in charge? Is it this Minister or the Minister for Finance?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the CDF Act came into operation in 2004. It was again amended in 2007. So, following the amendment in 2007, the CDF was moved from the Ministry of Finance to the Ministry of Planning. So, now it is under the Ministry of Planning. When there is change, you will appreciate that there are hiccups. Hiccups have been there and they are being sorted out. In fact, we are coming up with another amendment to the CDF Act as required by the old CDF Act.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. In answer to my question, the Minister referred to Section 45 as giving him authority before accounts can be opened. I told him that that is not my understanding of the provisions. The Minister is misleading the House. Section 45 of the Act only allows the Minister to approve a list of banks. Once he has approved the list of banks there is no further approval required. He is out of order.

I thought the Minister said it is to be moved from one bank to the other.

No, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. What I was saying was, since the Minister does not appear to understand it quickly, that Section 45 authorizes him to approve the list of banks. So, once the committee has decided to open an account in any one of those banks which he has approved he does not need to give any further approval and he has got no powers to do it.

On a point of information, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Do you need the information from Mr. Imanyara?

No. I can provide the information. I read to you the section that I quoted.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, clearly the Minister is wrong, but can you allow me to have a discussion with him later on outside the House, so that I can clear his mind on this? He is clearly being misled by himself.

In these matters you do not need my approval for you to have a session with the Minister.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not need to be informed by the hon. Member afterwards. Let us just have our discussion here. Maintaining means operationalizing the account. That is what I know. What does maintenance mean? What does it mean when your car breaks down and you maintain it? you want it to operate. That is my understanding of it.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I think this will give us a serious hitch when it comes to policy matters, because this Act was not solely made by the Minister; it was made by this House. What is being maintained is the account. The Minister is just supposed to authorize the list of the banks and that is why you have an annexure there. It is not up to the Minster to go and operationalise every account. He is supposed to approve the banks. It is the work of the committees to go and open their own bank accounts. The opening of the bank accounts is solely the prerogative of the committees and not the Minister.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, please protect me and help me to interpret the law. He is a member of the CDF, just as Mr. Nyamai is one. He had to come to me to solve this problem. If he knew that he could open the account, why did he have to come to me?

Next Question.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Education the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Under what circumstances did Xvarian Primary School in Kisumu Municipality enter into a contract with M/s Samjos Builders Company for construction of classrooms? (b) What was the obligation of the Ministry to discharge the contract amount? (c) What urgent steps is the Ministry taking to protect the school from auction by the company in pursuance of judgment in Kisumu Chief Magistrate’s Court, Civil Case No.311 of 2008 for approximately Kshs3 million?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the matter touches on issues of a legal nature and we have sought an opinion of the Attorney-General. We have not got his view yet. I have talked to the Questioner and we have agreed that he gives us up to next week, so that we can give a proper answer.

Mr. Assistant Minister, as much as you talked to the Questioner, this is a Question by Private Notice. A Question by Private Notice is essentially a Question that has a lot of urgency. Looking at the Question itself, it has a lot of urgency and it is the property of the House. So, next week is too far. Could we have an answer tomorrow or the day after tomorrow at the very latest?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, tomorrow or the day after tomorrow is a bit too early for us.

That is the essence of a Question by Private Notice. When you have a Question by Private Notice, you need a 48-hour notice. You need to bring that answer because the nature of that Question is urgent.

I do agree but the situation or the matter---

The Attorney-General does not work alone. he works in an institution. So, Parliament takes supremacy in these things.

Thursday.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Assistant Minister actually explained to me what his difficulty is but Xvarian Primary School is under threat of auctioned. I did advise the Assistant Minister that if he wants more time he should kindly undertake to the House that by tomorrow morning, he will dispatch a letter to the auctioneers to withhold any action as he is sorting himself out. That way, I will be willing to concede to Thursday.

Mr. Assistant Minister, the matter at hand is an urgent matter. There is a public institution that is faced with the threat of auction and that is why this Question is by Private Notice.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Given that the Attorney-General will be here in another 20 minutes, or so, to move the Witness Protection Bill, could the Assistant Minister agree to wait until the Attorney-General comes to the House and he takes advice from him, because this is a very straightforward matter. This will enable us to save the school from auction.

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Fair enough. The Question is deferred and it will be the last one today. Next Question

asked the Minister for Labour:- (a) what led to the termination of the employment of Mr. Rogin Kiduya, who was an employee of Barclays Bank (K) Ltd stationed, at Nyamira Branch;

r (Mr. Munyes): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) Mr. Rogin Kiduya’s services were terminated on grounds of non-performance. (b) Mr. Rogin Kiduya was paid his terminal benefits and pensions as follows:- (i) pension of Kshs844,108.05; (ii) pay in lieu of notice Kshs101,787; (iii)leave pay of Kshs100,459. (c) Mr. Rogin Kiduya was paid as per the laws.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Minister for the answer, but I find it rather casual because in part “a” of the Question I asked what led to the termination. I would like the Minister to tell this House whether due process was followed in terminating the employment of this gentleman. What actually led to it, because we cannot just say that his employment was terminated due to non-performance? How did they arrive at non-performance? Can we have details of this?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the bank has not provided the actual reasons why Mr. Rogin was dismissed. But what my office was informed is that because of non-performance, the officer could not meet the target laid down by the bank. He was given a chance to prove himself severally, but could not do so. Therefore, his services were terminated.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. You have just heard the Minister say that the bank has not provided him with information on what led to this termination. Would I be in order to ask that he produces this information? This is a very important Question. These employers are sacking people left and right when they feel like doing so. Could he produce the information that led to the sacking of the officer?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is difficult to produce specific information about somebody’s contract or what was entailed in the performance contracting. I would not know what was actually put in that contract. After 13 years of performance, they tell us it was low performance. I would not prove because I do not know what was put down in the performance contract.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this Question must be taken very seriously. Mr. Rogin worked for 13 years. The Minister accepts the reason of none performance as the only reason why Mr. Robin’s services were terminated. If that is the case, many employers will take advantage of this non-performance and dismiss so many workers. Many Kenyans will suffer from this so called “non-performance” syndrome if he does not take this case seriously.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, my Ministry is misunderstood to be a workers’ Ministry only. My Ministry entails protection of workers and employers. As we protect the workers of this country, we also need to protect employer’s capital. So, we will not accept a situation where somebody has not performed and then the Ministry goes there to protect somebody who is not performing.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the Minister in order to say that his Ministry protects both the employer and the employee and yet, he cannot satisfy this House that actually this employer failed in his responsibility and, therefore, he should have been dismissed?

That is not a point of order. But nonetheless proceed, hon. Minister.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for this particular case, I would have protected Mr. Rogin Kiduya if he was not paid. However, the employment law was duly respected. He was paid pension, notice of his pay and the leave was also paid. This was respected. We, as a Ministry, try to enforce and ensure workers working specifically with employers and those under unions are actually paid within the laws.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, 13 years is a long time. How would a bank keep a person in employment for 13 years, if he could not perform? Is the Minister satisfied that the bank gave him a serious answer on this Question?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, when we got this answer; my own question as per this termination was whether Mr. Rogin was given a chance to appeal. I was told he was given a chance, but he could not improve his performance. You can have good performance at the beginning, but after 13 years, you go down with your performance.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Minister says his Ministry protects employers as well their capital. Could he inform the House what action he has taken against a District Labour Officer who is corrupt and not doing his duties as required of him for the last three years? This officer is being corrupted by certain employers in Kisumu. This matter has been reported to him. The Central Organization of Trade Unions (COTU) has written to him---

Order! Hon. Shakeel, this is a different Question. You cannot hijack hon. Chanzu’s Question and ask your Question. If you want to have a Question on the same, please, put in a Question and it will be answered accordingly.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to know whether the Minister has interest in this matter because, in the first place, he seems to be very much harsh to the employee? He is talking about what he was told.

Order! You are asking a Question. Do you want to know whether the Minister has any interest in this matter?

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to know whether he has interest in this matter. I would like him to declare his interest.

Hon. Minister, do you have interest to declare in this matter?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, no interest at all. I have nothing to declare. I have the interest of the worker and the employer at my heart.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just want to say that the answer given by the Minister is not satisfactory. He has not given us any evidence to show that this man was paid. If he was paid, we want to know the mode of payment. Could he table documents to show that he was paid? I have information that he was not paid.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, he was paid an amount of Kshs844,000. This money was credited to account 093028473. The notice of pay was credited to account No.016135542 and leave pay was also credited to account No.016135542

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I had expected that this information should have been part of the answer that the Minister was giving. Could he table this information, so that we can verify it? After that, could he also give me more time to probe him on this question?

Next Question by hon. Kaino! The Chair has been notified that hon. Ombui would be asking on behalf of hon. Kaino.

Proceed, hon. Ombui!

on behalf of

, asked the Minister for Lands :- (a) why the Ministry has not posted a Land Registrar to Kapsowar in Marakwet; and, (b) when the Ministry will post the officer.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) A land Registrar has not been posted to Kapsowar because the volume of work there is not sufficient to warrant posting of a Land Registrar. In addition, no sufficient funds have been allocated for recruitment of staff to cater for the demand countrywide. (b) Marakwet District would be considered among others once we recruit additional Land Registrars.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank the Assistant Minister for attempting to answer the Question. He has given two answers; the volume of work and insufficient funds. Taking the first one, could he state clearly the volume of work that warrants a District Lands Registrar to be posted to a specific place?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, currently, there are only 2,024 titles deeds ready for the whole of Kapsowar. However, as the adjudication schemes increase and titles are prepared, the district will be considered among others.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, issues of land are very critical to our people. We have so many districts that were created recently. The reason was to take services closer to the people. One such district is Nandi North District, Mosop Constituency. When will the Assistant Minister post Land Registrars to Mosop Constituency?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have availed our case to the Treasury and once it is approved, we will recruit land registrars. One will be posted to Kaspowar and we will also consider the hon. Questioner’s constituency.

Ask the last question on the same Mr. Ombui!

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is definite that sometimes, Ministers do not give specific answers. I believe that the Minister for Lands has extensive plan for the Ministry. Could the Assistant Minister be very clear and state when all these districts will be considered for land registrars?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we will table our budget once the Budget is read in this House. Once we are allocated funds, we will consider all these cases because we know there are new districts where land registrars are supposed to be posted.

Next Question by Mr. David Ngugi! The Chair notes that it noticed the presence of Mr. David Ngugi! What is happening Mr. Ngugi? Proceed and ask your Question!

asked the Minister for Roads:- (a) what the status of improvement of the Kirima–Ndinda and Kirima–Engineer roads to bitumen standards is; and, (b) whether the Government could consider awarding the contract to China WuYi Company, which is already on site on the Njabini–Ol Kalou–Ndundori road.

Is anyone here from the Ministry of Roads? That is fair enough. We will give it another chance! Next Question by Mr. Njoroge Baiya!

NON-PAYMENT OF BENEFITS TO LATE SAMUEL IKIGU KAMAU’S WIDOW

asked the Minister of State for Defence:- (a) why Ms. Agnes Wanjiru Ikigu has not been paid any benefits in respect of her deceased husband, Samuel Ikigu Kamau (Service No. 8425); and, (b) what action he will take to ensure the claim (File No. Mp (5456) is processed and the claimant paid.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) After retiring, the serviceman was paid his gratuity plus arrears of Kshs100,807.75. The serviceman had a Government liability of Kshs9, 496.55 and therefore, he was paid Kshs91,311.20. The ex-serviceman was put on monthly pension of Kshs1, 512.85 with effect from 12th June 1994 through the Kiambu District Commissioner. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the ex-serviceman died on 2nd January, 2005. However, his death was not notified to the Director of Pensions by the widow as it is normally done. The notification was done by the widow on the 14th of January 2009, four years after the death. This explains why there has been such a delay in processing the pension. It had now to be changed from the late husband to the widow. This process is ongoing.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank the Assistant Minister for the answer he has given. As you will notice, the deceased earned low pension and the family is fully dependent on it. Many years have passed without the payment being processed. Could the Assistant Minister tell us when that will be done? He has evaded

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as you are aware, I am very sympathetic to pensioners. If this widow had notified the Director of Pensions of the death of her husband, then she would have been paid by now. She did what is considered not to be in accordance with the law. She continued earning the pension of her husband for four years. She notified the Director of Pensions four years later. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the mistake has been corrected. She has now notified the Director but there is a process of changing the pension from the late husband to the widow. I assure the hon. Member that the matter is being taken seriously and I will personally see that it is paid in the next two months.

Are you satisfied Mr. Baiya?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am satisfied although I would like to say that it was not part of the written answer by the Assistant Minister---

Fair enough! The Assistant Minister has given an undertaking that his pension dues will be paid within the next two months. This will be reflected in the HANSARD. You can use that authoritatively to hold the Assistant Minister accountable for his undertaking.

I will take that for an answer, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Let us move on to Mr. Dan Mwazo’s Question!

asked the Minister for Education:- (a) whether he could confirm that a student, Georgina Sophie Nyasi, of Mwanyambo Primary School in Voi Constituency died after a teacher subjected her to corporal punishment; (b) whether the Ministry conducted any investigations into the death and, if so, what were the findings; and, (c) what action he has taken against the teacher, considering that corporal punishment has been outlawed in schools.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I plead direct interest in the matter. The lady, Georgina Sophie Nyasi is a family member. I cannot get hold of my colleague Prof. Olweny to handle the matter. I would prefer that he handles the matter.

That is very valid! Indeed, the Question will be put on the Order Paper at the time when your colleague can answer the same! When can that be?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have to establish whether he is in the country or not.

Is he in the country or not?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I could not get hold of him. So, I really do not know whether he is in the country or not.

Fair enough! Is that okay with you, hon. Questioner?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is okay if it will be answered tomorrow but one.

It is so directed that the Question appears on the Order Paper on Thursday, this week!

What is your point of order, Mr. Olago Aluoch? Order, there is still one more Question! We have not exhausted the Questions! Mr. Ngugi, can you ask your Question again!

asked the Minister for Roads:- (a) what the status of improvement of the Kirima–Ndinda and Kirima–Engineer roads to bitumen standards is; and, (b) whether the Government could consider awarding the contract to China WuYi Company, which is already on site on the Njabini–Ol Kalou–Ndundori Road.

Is anybody here from the Ministry of Roads! Can a Minister, preferably, the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government make an undertaking on behalf of his Cabinet colleague? Why is the Minister for Roads not here today? If he has the information himself, he can answer this Question.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I may not have the information as to why he is not here. However, may I undertake that he responds to the Question by Thursday afternoon?

Fair enough! It is so directed! The Question will appear on the Order Paper on Thursday afternoon! Let us move on to the next Order!

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I had asked a Question but it was deferred to be the last one. I saw Mr. Wako walking into the House and saw him consult with the Minister.

Indeed, he is in the House. Ask your Question!

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Education, the following Question by Private Notice.

Order, Mr. Mwatela! Have you done sufficient consultation with the Attorney-General on the same?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have asked the Attorney-General and he says that he is not very sure of what the contents are at the moment.

Attorney-General, given the urgency of the matter, this Question was deferred as the last Question to give you an opportunity for you to respond. It is a very urgent matter; it is a Question by Private Notice. It is a public institution that is up for auctioning and you are supposed to give a legal opinion to the Ministry of Education on the same. Could you consult and tell us what should happen? It is a Question by Private Notice and so the urgency is there. The Chair is of the opinion that this Question should be answered in the course of the week.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if this Question had been directed to me in the first instance, I would definitely have come here prepared but I notice for the first time that it is a Question addressed to the Ministry of Education. It appears to be a dispute before Kisumu Chief Magistrate’s Court Civil Case No.311/2008 and I will need a bit of time to look into it, particularly bearing in mind that it is a Kisumu case. I do not know when the auctioneers are going to auction this property but we can look into it and see whether there is a defenceable claim on the matter.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Before the Attorney- General arrived in the House, I proposed that if there is need for the Assistant Minister for Education and the Attorney-General to consult, then they can be given a couple of days to do so, but on the undertaking of the Assistant Minister that he will do a letter by tomorrow to the auctioneers to withhold the auction. That is very reasonable in my view!

Mr. Wako, would you want to answer that or is it the Assistant Minister who is going to answer that?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member is the lawyer acting on behalf of the school and so he can assist us to draft that letter.

Order, Mr. Olago! Indeed, are you the lawyer who is acting for the school in this matter?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have made it abundantly clear to the Ministry that I am acting for the school on a pro bono basis to protect it but they should take their responsibility seriously.

Indeed, you need to declare that particular interest, pro

or otherwise. When you ask the Question, you must declare that! Could you declare it to the House now?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have not been asked before but now that you have, I will say it.

Order! On matters of interest, you have to do it; you volunteer. You do not have to be asked to.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to declare that I am acting as a lawyer for Xavarian Primary School on a pro bono basis.

It is accepted! Mr. Mwatela, the responsibility is yours. The hon. Member is doing this on a pro bono basis to help salvage the possible auction of the school!

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we will generate a letter jointly with the hon. Member.

He will generate a letter the earliest possible and that is tomorrow. Fair enough! Next Order!

Bw. Naibu Spika, ningependa kusimama niulize taarifa kutoka kwa Waziri wa Utawala wa Mikoa na Usalama wa Ndani. Mnamo asubuhi ya 31st March, 2010, kikosi cha polisi na Askari wa Utawala kilivamia maskwota Watamu katika eneo Bunge la Malindi katika oparesheni ambayo ilikusudiwa kuwafurusha maskwota hao katika kipande cha ardhi kilichokuwa kikizozaniwa na Mkuu wa Mkoa wa Pwani na mfanyibiashara mmoja wa Watamu. Katika uvamizi huu, vijana wawili walifariki na kadhaa kupata majeraha mabaya ya risasi. Kufuatia tukio hilo, ningeliomba Waziri mhusika kueleza ni katika mazingara gani yaliopelekea polisi kuvamia kipande hiki cha ardhi usiku wa manane kikiongozwa na Mkuu wa Mkoa wa Pwani? Pili, ni watu wangapi walijeruhiwa mikononi mwa polisi katika mkasa huu na kwa hivi sasa wako katika zahanati gani na hali yao ya kiafya ikoaje? Tatu, ni hatua gani Waziri amechukua kwa Mkuu wa Mkoa huo kutokana na kitendo hiki cha kinyama kwa watu wa eneo la Ubunge la Malindi? Na mwisho, ni hatua gani Waziri anakusudia kuchukua dhidi ya askari polisi na wa utawala waliohusika katika mauaji hayo?

Bw. Naibu Spika, tutaleta Statement by next week Thursday.

Jambo la kwanza, haikubaliwi katika nidhamu ya Bunge kuchanganya Kizungu na Kiswahili. Aidha unaongea Kizungu ama Kiswahili.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will be able to give a statement by Thursday next week.

Bw. Naibu Spika, jambo hili ni la dharura na kama unavyojua, mpaka sasa hali ya taharuki iko katika kijiji cha Watamu katika Malindi. Pili, wiki ijayo,

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. With this Swahili of

and dharura, are you sure that it is being understood by Mr. Ojode?

Order! Bw. Ojode, kuambatana na taharuki iliyoko; na taharuki maanake ni kuna hali ya wasiwasi. Kwa vile, usalama na mambo mengine yanaweza kuzoroteka. Bw. Mung’aro anaona ni afadhali uilete hiyo taarifa yako mwisho wa wiki hii. Unaweza kuileta Alhamisi ya wiki hii?

Bw. Naibu Spika, ninaweza kuleta Alhamisi lakini mnajua ya kwamba mimi mwenyewe nilienda mpaka kule Watamu na tulitatua yale ambayo yalikuweko huko. Kwa hivyo, sioni haraka ilioko sana, ama zaidi ya kuleta hii taarifa.

Hoja ya nidhamu, Bw. Naibu Spika. Sioni kuwa Waziri Msaidizi anachukulia hili jambo vile linavyohitajika kuchukuliwa. Kama alienda Malindi na akaona ile hali ya taharuki iliyokuweko; watu wanataka kuuana, na huku anasema hamna lolote la taharuki. Waziri Msaidizi anafanya fedheha kwa watu wa Mkoa wa Pwani na naomba ikome!

Bw. Ojode, huwezi kusema hakuna tatizo lolote pahali ambapo watu wawili wamefariki. Bila shaka, wananchi wa Kenya wanafahamu kuna taharuki.

Bw. Naibu Spika, ndio kulikuwa na matatizo kule, lakini nilikuwa naomba nilete hii taarifa Alhamisi.

Alhamisi wiki hii?

Ndiyo, Bw. Naibu Spika; nitafanya hivyo.

Bw. Naibu Spika, mtu anayetajwa kuhusika katika jambo hili ambalo limeleta maafa ya watu wawili na watu kumi kujeruhiwa kwa risasi ni Mkuu wa Mkoa wa Pwani ambaye yuko afisini mpaka sasa. Bw. Waziri Msaidizi yeye amesema alizuru eneo hilo na lilikuwa sawa. Mimi nilikuwa huko Jumamosi na hali ni ya taharuki. Ni hatua gani itakayochukuliwa mara moja ili uchunguzi wa haki ufanywe?

Nidhamu, Bw. Joho! Hayo yote ni yale yatakayotajwa katika Taarifa ya Waziri Msaidizi.

Bw. Naibu Spika, hayo yote nitayataja katika Taarifa nitakayowasilisha hapa Bungeni.

Ninaamrisha Taarifa iletwe hapa Bungeni Alhamisi, wiki hii!

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Witness Protection (Amendment) Bill, 2010, be read a Second Time.

This august House did see the necessity, need and the importance of witness protection in our criminal justice system. That is why they enacted the Act in 2006, an Act which was assented to by His Excellency the President on 31st December, 2006. There have been some reports that we are just enacting this amendment because of the post election violence; I want to emphasize that the Government saw the need to have this legislation in place in 2006, well before the 2007 General Election.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I stated earlier, the Government and this House saw the need and the importance of witness protection in our criminal justice system. At that time, criminality and organized crime in this country had reached levels in which it was becoming very difficult to carry out successful criminal investigations because of threats, intimidation and even deaths of crucial witnesses. As you know, a crime may be committed, but if there are no witnesses, a criminal prosecution cannot be sustained in court. So, the importance of credible truthful witnesses who are able to withstand cross-examination in court is very critical if we have to deal with the issues of impunity.

I will not be too long because this House has already enacted this legislation. This legislation has now become very important. Part of the experiences that we have had and the successes that we have gained since the enactment of this Bill is that, first of all, we have published the Witness Protection Regulations. The Witness Protection Regulations are the regulations which have enabled the Government to constitute a Witness Protection Unit, which has the mandate that has been set out under the existing legislation. The Witness Protection Unit also has a mandate to put the witness protection programme in place. This is the unit to which the person who wants to be protected can apply and this is where a decision on that application is made to protect a particular person. Without going into many details, when we were trying to enforce and operationalize this Act, we came across a number of obstacles to successfully undertake our work. One of the major obstacles is that this Unit is placed under the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, who is under me. Therefore, it is subjected to the transparent, and open procurement processes of the Government. The Unit, in order to be

(Mr. M. Kilonzo)

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir for giving me this opportunity. I want to say from the onset that I support the proposed Amendment Bill. This Bill is coming at a very appropriate time. For the last two days, Wild LifeP ublishers and two authors; a woman from America called Nicole Braddock who is a survivor of sexual violence and a lady called Abemeni Sarusi from the UK and originally from Nigeria, and I, have been working towards creating awareness on issues of sexual violence against children and trafficking through the launch of their books Harsh and

respectively. I want to say and agree with the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs when he says that whenever we talk about witness protection, many of us think it has to do only with the ICC. For me, I want to move away from that because we are putting too much emphasis there. My challenge to the hon. Attorney-General is that he will have to create adequate space because he will have several witnesses to protect. These will be witnesses in the name of children who have sexually been abused. I will give you two examples. One of the cases, I dealt with, a Kisii girl aged six years old who was sexually abused by two of her neighbours, one of whom claimed to be a pastor. When the case was pending in court, they threatened the family by telling them if they did not withdraw the case, they would rape the girl again. Since the police were not able to protect her, they raped her again. Secondly, a Luo girl from Kibera, 14 years of age, the same thing happened to her. She was gang raped. When the case was pending in court, the same group told her that if she did not withdraw the case, they would rape her again. We assured her of police protection. However, the police were not able to give her protection and she was raped again. There was also an Ethiopian girl who was living in Kenya, but was abducted and trafficked. The people concerned wanted to forcefully marry her. We tried to help her, but we were not able. We put her in a centre where these people found her and forcefully removed her. Hon. Attorney-General, for me, this is not just an issue of the ICC. It is an issue about thousands of our children who are raped daily. I also want to say that one other thing I love in this Bill; other than dealing with the issue of witnesses, is that it also talks about protection of victims. I want to challenge

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. We are talking about a very important Bill that will affect our lives and yet, we do not have quorum in the House.

Yes, I can see that there is no quorum. Please, ring the Division Bell.

Order! Order! We now have quorum. Proceed, Ms. Odhiambo!

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I was talking about the issue of counter trafficking in persons; that is very prevalent and I was indicating that Kenya is not only a growing hub as a transit point and a source and as a destination country. Indeed, I have actually brought a Bill that will be coming before this House on counter trafficking in persons, and I am also happy to note that the Government has actually brought another one on international organised crimes which will go hand in hand with this Witness Protection (Amendment) Bill. I will not speak a lot on the issue of independence that has been spoken about by the hon. Attorney-General but I think it is important that such an institution is independent. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would also want to encourage the Attorney-General to look at the issue of incorporating persons with expertise on sexual and gender based violence in the two institutions, excluding the tribunal that is being set up especially because of the prevalence of the nature of cases that I am talking about. Finally, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, because of the culture of silence and taboo around the issues of sexual and gender based violence, we need this now and not a day later. With those few remarks, I beg to support.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I also rise to support this Bill. I want to thank the Attorney-General for bringing the proposed

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this very important amendment Bill. You may recall that when I spoke on the original Bill, I said that the Office of the Attorney-General, in fact, had earned itself, very unfairly, a bad reputation for not prosecuting cases successfully or sometimes at all. Just like my learned junior, Mr. Eugene Wamalwa has said, a case is as good as its witnesses. A case is as good as how you present it before the court. The history of witness protection, if you look at other jurisdictions--- America was able to enact a witness protection law after the bootlegging scandals.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I do not know whether it is in good taste for the Minister to refer to Mr. Wamalwa as his “learned junior”.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Mr. Chanzu, being himself not learned, cannot understand that. Thank you Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for understanding being my learned senior. The American jurisdiction had to go to witness protection after the bootlegging scandals. If you look at the history of Italy, you will find that the mafia activities made it impossible to convict anybody and yet there were horrendous crimes being committed by citizens. They had to enact a witness protection law. In my brief remarks, I urge the Attorney-General that the unit we are creating must be a unit that is led by men and women of impeccable integrity. I have no doubt, the lady he has introduced here is a lawyer of very good repute and whoever else joins the Board must be people who can help this country move forward. I am saying this because you have the benefit of being a practicing lawyer and you have seen what goes on in courts. You bring a case in court, particularly cases related to violence and organized crime and not a single witness turns up. Once, I was horrified in a court in Kibera where an accused person was literally telling a witness; “continue saying what you are saying and I will come out and you will see.” I asked myself: “How does the accused know that he will come out in the first place when he was charged with a hanging offence?” Secondly, “how can the State protect the witness who has such vital information to keep away such a bad person from society and yet he is left to the threats and intimidations of an accused person?”

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to also make my little contribution to the Witness Protection (Amendment) Bill. First of all, I want to say that I support the Bill but express my deep disappointment with the Attorney-General. When he was moving this debate, I listened very carefully. He said that this Bill was assented to by His Excellency the President on 30th December, 2006. When he was moving the main Bill in 2006, I was here, and I lauded him for moving it. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is an indictment on the Office of the Attorney-General for them to barely, four years later, bring the same Bill to this House with the reason that operationally, it became difficult to make it work. We were here praising the establishment of the Witness Protection Fund then and, four years later, we are being told that it was operationally impossible to make it work. I think we need to use the time of Parliament in a more effective manner. However, the reason as to why I would want to support this Amendment Bill is the whole principle of witness protection. Many times, when we have talked about the judicial and security systems, we have gone an extra length to protect what you would call “security agents”. Here, my colleagues have raised the issue of victims, and the same fate befalls witnesses. Witnesses have not been traditionally given the necessary protection they require. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, my colleagues preceding me have talked clearly about what organised crime, and war time crime can do. I want to add what tribally-motivated crimes can do. A lot of witnesses disappear. A lot of people suffer. So, we have to do everything within our power to make sure that, at least, we do something in this Parliament. I want to join my colleagues who spoke before me to urge the House to pass this amendment to make the Witness Protection Act stronger, and make it work, because we are not the first country that is doing this. Canada has a very effective system of witness protection, which is basically modelled under the United States of America Federal Witness Protection Programme. New Zealand has a very effective system, and there is nothing wrong with us picking some aspects from those models. Taiwan and Switzerland have effective systems. I want to urge this House that in passing this Amendment Bill through the Second Stage, without much controversy, we will not be making a mistake. We will be doing something that can affect ourselves, our families and the people we represent here in a very real manner. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, when you look at the history of how witness protection programmes started – I want to look at the USA system – you will realise that it was set up particularly in the 1960s, when one Gerald Shoe, who was then heading the Organised Crime and Racketeering Section of the US Department of Justice, saw the need for protecting witnesses.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to add my voice in supporting the amendments.

First of all, when the parent legislation was passed in this House, I believe that Kenyans realized that impunity was been encouraged by the fear of witnesses in giving evidence because they realized that if they did so, then without protection, the culprits would not give them space. So, that is why this particular Bill was passed in this House.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we can say a lot on historical injustices. A lot of issues took place. Immediately after Independence so many deaths took place. The Government promised to conclude investigations and take action against people who were responsible. However, this has not been possible. We can remember the death of Pio Gama Pinto, J.M. Kariuki and Tom Mboya. In the second regime, we can remember the death of Robert Ouko and others. Even the present regime has also witnessed its share of what one would call political deaths. The late Odhiambo Mbai and others. We have had the most recent case of post-election violence where so many people lost their lives. The issue is still outstanding. Many witnesses have not able to give evidence because of lack of witness protection mechanism. But with the passing of this Bill in 2006, I think the understanding of the nation then was that some action will now be taken to protect the witnesses. Unfortunately, as hon. Mungatana articulately put it, it has not been possible to implement and operationalise this particular piece of legislation.

Today, the Attorney-General has brought amendments. I agree totally with the Attorney-General that the amendments sought are very important to make sure that this particular legislation is effectively operationalised. The amendments sought seek to introduce an Independent Witness Protection Agency. This agency will be a body corporate with teeth. It will be funded. A body that will be under a Director who will have powers, privileges and immunities like that of a police officer. I think this is a very good amendment.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me an opportunity to contribute to this Bill. I want, first and foremost, to register my support for the amendment. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not have kind words for the Attorney- General for bringing this amendment. In the first place the Act was passed way back in 2006. It has taken him five years to recognise that the initial Act was not operational or had operational challenges. The main reason for this is that the importance of witness protection in the administration of justice in a country is obviously a very critical issue. Our country has witnessed, over the years, continuous degeneration of the rule of law, quality of justice and these are some of the key components which have driven that degeneration. If the pace at which we have treated this Witness Protection Act is anything to go by, it is very unfortunate. It would appear that the State has not actually been serious about witness protection. We know for sure that way back in the colonial period, when the State had a

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me this opportunity to support the Witness Protection (Amendment) Bill. I know my colleagues have contributed to various issues but I want to stress that the people to serve in the proposed agency must be men and women of high integrity. The qualifications of these people must also be something of a lot of essence. I was just looking at the Bill here very quickly and I found that the Witness Protection Advisory Board--- Of course, we have had institutions before, but what I want to applaud

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will be very brief. Thank you for the opportunity.

In a more rhetoric way, I will just reiterate what has been said; the need for this legislation whose time is really overdue, to ensure that we move to the next level in terms of getting things right in the governance of prosecution and getting matters of national concern, security and corruption submitted and executed without the hindrances that have existed in the past. The example that my colleague, Mr. Chanzu, was giving about Goldenberg should ring bells as we address this Motion, given that it has taken very few and isolated instances to expose issues that would have helped this country to grow and cause responsibility within the Government. These isolated cases and because of the absence of the Witness Protection Act, have relied mostly on the Civil Society to expose them and they end up not being followed up, redressed or corrected. We have relied on the media to expose important matters which should be in the domain of the State agencies. There is an on-going campaign on children’s rights and as amplified today in some of the media, there is need for the child to be protected. A lot of exploitations are happening in communities. They are happening in homesteads. Children are being exploited in illegal labour, abuse of children in institutions of learning, abuse of children within the jurisdiction of even religious organizations and a lot of this information gets to the hands of individuals who may wish to submit such violations but for fear of reprisals within the communities and organizations, these matters do not come out.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, just recently, I was reading of an instance where a woman was being exploited at her work place. This is not an isolated case. There are many women who get abused and subjected to violent and inhuman conditions. However, for fear of being seen as disobeying one’s community, clan or those people in authority, whether it is in villages, work places and in plantations, these cases are never brought forward. As we move towards the enactment of a new Constitution, we need to see women of this country playing a key and more visible role that will bring fairness, equity and justice to them. It is important to have this sort of subsidiary legislation which will enable their protection and promotion by way of ensuring that they are not abused.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to add my input to this very important Bill.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, when we were passing the initial Witness Protection Bill, I can recall advising the Attorney-General that the Bill did not go far enough and that there were some shortcomings. But now I am glad that the Attorney- General has realized the shortcomings and brought the amendments. So, I want to thank him and his staff for the work they have done in updating and remedying the faults that were in the initial Bill.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just want to say two things. One, as we improve on the Witness Protection Act, we need to copy what some of the most successful jurisdictions do. I have in mind here the United States of America (USA). Hon. Attorney-General, you will never be able to prosecute successfully somebody charged with corruption in this country - I will give you the reason. It is because you make it both an offence for the giver and receiver. So, if you accept that you have been given, even if that person is denying, first of all, the courts deal with you because you have confessed. So, it can never work. You need to copy the American system where the prosecutor decides among the giver and receiver who is more prominent in society. If you decide that it is the receiver, because normally the receiver will be more prominent--- You do not prosecute the giver but the receiver, so that then the giver can give evidence against the receiver. But where you say it is both of them; whether you were given or you received, you have committed an offence, it will never work. So, you need to make that distinction and choice as to whom you want to go for. Normally, it is the receiver.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. We have been here and have debated this Bill exhaustively. It looks like everybody is supporting it. Would I be in order to request that the Mover be called upon to reply?

Yes, indeed, you are right. It is now becoming repetitious and I am hearing only support. So, I think it is only right and proper that we move on to close. So, I am calling on the Mover to reply.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, first of all, I want to thank most profusely all the Members who have contributed to this Bill. They have contributed in a very positive way in that all of them are supporting this Bill.

Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, witness protection is not an easy thing. It is a highly skillful and complicated system which operates to protect witnesses. We are the

Hon. Members, it has been brought to my attention that the hon. Member who was to move this Motion is not ready and, therefore, it is deferred.

Also, hon. Members, with respect to Order Number 10, there have been developments – the matter is in court and the Speaker is making inquiries from the Attorney-General’s Office before making a ruling as to whether this Motion should be debated.