Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Agriculture the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Is the Minister aware that the price of sugar in the country has risen astronomically in the past few weeks due to country-wide shortage? (b) What is the cause of the current shortage of the commodity? (c) What measures has the Ministry put in place to cushion consumers from the escalating prices of the commodity?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to seek the indulgence of this House to answer this Question next week. That is because the answer I have just received is not satisfactory. I have consulted the hon. Member and agreed that because the matters raised are so weighty, the answer is below my expectations.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, indeed, the Assistant Minister has consulted me. I do agree, although he should bear in mind that the commodity is being used by majority of Kenyans. The issue of pricing should be addressed as soon as possible. So, I agree that he can answer the Question next week.
Very well! I will defer the Question to Wednesday afternoon next week.
asked the Minister for Public Works:- (a) why the construction of the New Mitihani House, which started 25 years ago, has not been completed; and, (b) when the project will be completed.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) The construction of the New Mitihani House has not been completed since its commencement on 3rd March, 1987 due to under-funding over successive years. It is in this context that the project was mutually wound up in 2003 on “as is” basis and placed under the Stalled Projects Completion Programme. The project is being implemented in a phased programme comprising five phases due to inadequate budgetary allocations. I want to report that Phase 1 and Phase 2 were completed and handed over to Kenya National Examinations Council in May 2006 and the facility is in use. The initial cost of the project at conception in 1987 was Kshs248,925,596.10. As I said, the project stalled in July 1989 at sub-structure level for the main office tower and super sub-structure level in respect to the printing factory and overall percentage progress largely because of inadequate budgetary allocations from the Treasury. (b) I want to assure the hon. Member and Members of this House that if the Treasury can avail the requisite funds on the basis projected, that project will be completed in its entirety by December 2012.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Minister for being candid and open by telling this House and the entire nation the real status of Mitihani House, which is a very important facility for the Republic of Kenya. According to the Minister, the initial cost of the project, 25 years ago was less than Kshs300 million. The projected cost, as per today, is Kshs1.7 billion; meaning that the Government of the Republic of Kenya will pay Kshs.1.4 billion over and above what it should have paid earlier on. He wants to finalize the project by 2012. Could the Minister confirm to this House how much has been budgeted for the same in this financial year, and what works will be completed before the end of this financial year?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this financial year, work is already in progress to complete Phase 5. We expect to complete Phase 5 by 1st December, 2011. When that particular phase is completed, we expect it will have cost a total of Kshs934,299,450. Out of that amount, the Ministry of Public Works has Kshs650 million. It is expected that the balance will be provided to us from the Ministry of Education and negotiations are on-going to source for those funds.
Mr. Minister, I am told that this Question was actually answered and you are only giving relevant information. So that should do it!
asked the Minister of State for Public Service:-
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we sent the answer to the House. But this is a very detailed answer that I wish the hon. Member had, had a chance to look at. I can, however, go ahead and give the answer and then provide him with a copy. But I do not know if that will be sufficiently fair in the circumstances.
Would that be okay with you, Mr. Chanzu?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, what the Minister has said is what I was going to say. It is a very detailed answer for a very important Question. I would like to have time to go through the answer so that I can interrogate it.
How much time?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if he can give it to me, he can answer the Question at the end of this session.
No! How much time do you want to look at the answer that you have been provided with?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we can do it tomorrow.
Mr. Minister, is tomorrow all right?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am sure the hon. Member can read the answer. I can answer it at the end of the session today, instead of coming back tomorrow. That is because reading two pages, however detailed it is, should not be a problem. He has that capability.
Give him the answer and it will be on the Order Paper tomorrow afternoon.
Next Question by hon. David Njuguna.
asked the Minister for Education:- (a) whether he is aware that M/s Kariuki Construction Co. Ltd. was contracted by Nairobi School to construct Nairobi School “Junior House” in 2006/2007; (b) whether he is also aware that the final contract value of determination by both parties was Kshs6,389,431.90, but the contractor was paid only Kshs4,252,500.00; and,
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg the indulgence of the House.
If only the consultations could be lowered! I beg the indulgence of the House. I got a very inadequate answer and I plead for more time so that I can address this Question in depth. Furthermore, the Principal of Nairobi School is out of the country. He is in Canada. I would like to visit the school and meet him, so that I get a proper answer than this.
Mr. Njuguna, is that all right with you.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would also like to bring it to your attention that I have not received the answer. Secondly, the request by the Assistant Minister is neither satisfactory nor appropriate. He is aware that the contractor has been demanding for his funds for the last four years.
Mr. Njuguna, you do not even have the answer. So, how long would you give the Assistant Minister?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, a week.
Is a week okay, Mr. Mwatela?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would really not have minded had it not been the situation that the Principal of the school is out of the country and he is a key person.
How long is the Principal away?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, two weeks would be adequate.
Mr. Njuguna, I think the Assistant Minister needs two weeks.
I agree, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
It is also the Chair’s old school and so, I am going to indulge the Assistant Minister. That Question is deferred by two weeks!
asked the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security:- (a) whether he could explain the circumstances that led to the death of Ms. Fatuma Farah in Garissa Town on March 25, 1994 and whether he could state the findings of Inquest File Number 3/95;
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if you look at this Question and look at the HANSARD, it was answered on 8th June, 2011. I have the HANSARD here and it was Question No.929. Our Standing Order No.43(4) disallows Questions which had already been dispensed with to be repeated within six months. So, I do not know whether I can go ahead and answer the same thing which I had answered on 8th June, 2011.
Let me hear Mr. Affey first because I am aware of it. I was in the House when that Question was answered.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Question I had asked on the date the Assistant Minister has given referred to Inquest File No.2 of 1995. But the Question this afternoon is on Inquest File No.3. So, there are two files. The one he answered was Inquest No.2 and I am asking about Inquest File No.3 of 1995. So, it is a different Question!
Order! I have been briefed by the Clerks-at-the-Table and, indeed, the Question was substantially similar to the one that was answered. This has been confirmed by the HANSARD. So, it ought not to be on the Order Paper.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. The answer given to the House by the Minister concerns a different date in terms of the reporting done in Occurrence Book (OB) and the inquest file opened in Garissa. In the answer the Minister gave on Inquest File No.2 of 1995 he did not have the name “Fatuma”. In the Inquest File No.3---
Order, Mr. Affey! The Chair’s ruling is that this is substantially the same Question that was answered and it ought not to be on the Order Paper. I have confirmed with the Parliamentary staff and that is the Chair’s ruling.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I do not know whether you can recall that day you were---
Are you revisiting the same matter?
Yes, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
You are out of order! Next Question by the Member for Emuhaya!
asked the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance:-
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was meant to answer this Question, unfortunately, the Question was forwarded to my office but I was not aware until a few minutes ago. I have indulged the hon. Member and I am requesting him to agree so that we answer this Question on Tuesday afternoon.
Dr. Otichilo, what do you have to say to that?
Yes, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have agreed that he answers the Question on Tuesday.
The Question is deferred to next week on Tuesday as requested!
Next Question by Mr. Mbuvi, the Member for Makadara!
on behalf of
asked the Minister for Youth Affairs and Sports:- (a) whether he could state all the programmes established by the Government to address youth unemployment since 2003; (b) which development partners have funded the activities of the programmes in (a) above and how much money each has contributed; and, (c) what measures are in place to ensure that the programmes observe efficiency, accountability, transparency and ensure participation by the target groups.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) The programmes established by the Government to address youth unemployment since 2003 are as follows:- (i) The youth empowerment employment scheme.
Order, Minister! How long is that list?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am finishing. There are only two more. (vii) Infrastructure Development Supply of Tools through KDP at US$5 million. (viii) Rehabilitation and equipping of youth polytechnics at US$130,000 through ADB. (ix) Sports Programmes through UNICEF at US$250,000. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, those are the main sponsors or partners that have been in this youth programme. The other parts of the programme have been sponsored by the Ministry and were funded by the Government of Kenya through the Exchequer and the list is as provided in our Vote Books which have already been provided to the House.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the programmes the Minister enumerated, there seems to be billions of shillings involved towards creation of employment for the youth. With all these funds channeled towards alleviating unemployment of the youth, could the Minister give us the substantive number of youths, courtesy of this programme, who have got employment today? To what percentage has the unemployment rate among the youth decreased because of such programmes?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, that could be a different question. However, we know that with the increasing young labour force which is providing about 25 per cent of the labour market and 75 per cent which is approximately
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the Minister in order to evade the question? There are over 20 programmes listed here and my question was very direct; how many youths, courtesy of these programmes, have got employment? To what percentage has the unemployment rate been reduced by these programmes?
But he did indicate to you that, that indeed, is a separate Question although he was willing to--- Minister, what do you have to say?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I said, that is separate Question. I was just talking about what each programme has done. However, if you ask me that specific Question, then I can bring the information on the numbers that have been employed.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, among the programmes being established by the Government to address youth unemployment in Kenya is one that is called Affirmative Action Policy for the Youth. I have never heard about that programme. I would like the Minister to inform us more about it. What kind of affirmative action is he talking about? Where is that programme being implemented in our country?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if you recall very well, sometimes back, we had a Kamukunji here, where we had called Members of Parliament to educate them on the issue of Kenya Youth Employment Programme. The Chair was here and contributed during that time. I am sure if the hon. Member had bothered to attend that meeting, he would have updated himself on how the programme is being piloted in around eight areas. It is already being piloted in those areas. There were questions why it was being piloted in those areas. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, you are aware that all that was answered during the forum that we had. So far, there are about eight areas where we are pioneering that programme.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the Minister in order to evade my question? My question is very direct. I want to know more about that programme and where it is being implemented in the Republic of Kenya. It is very simple.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, during that Speaker’s
the areas presented were Kiambu, Machakos, Coastal areas, parts of Migori and parts of North Eastern Kenya like Wajir. Those are the pioneer areas where the project is being piloted in terms of affirmative action. I may not have all the details at hand, but I can pass the document to the hon. Member so that he can update himself on exactly the areas and the criteria that was used to select those areas.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Minister has talked about accessibility to polytechnics. Everybody knows that the availability of institutions of higher learning, including polytechnics is skewed in this country. We have more polytechnics in some areas more than others---
Ask your question.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the question is: What is the Ministry doing to ensure that all youths have fair access to polytechnics?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I said, through this Technical and Vocational Education and Training (TIVET) Programme, we are in the process of reviving polytechnics. Some were called village polytechnics and we have taken them up. We have also developed a curriculum with the National Education Council - if I am not mistaken. So far, we have taken over 500 youth polytechnics. We have ensured that they are spread out in every constituency. As I speak now, we are in the process of gazetting more youth polytechnics. I have been telling Members to liaise, in their constituencies, with the Youth Development Officers, to ensure that, at least, two or three youth polytechnics can be gazetted and put under that programme. However, so far, the numbers we have registered are slightly over 500 youth polytechnics. The number of youths whom we have put under that programme is around 75,000. We are already subsidizing them at a cost of Kshs15,000 per youth. We are also giving equipment. So far, we have given over 100 youth polytechnics equipment to help them do that. You are also aware that we are recruiting instructors and this year alone, we recruited 2,000 instructors on contractual basis. We will be sending them out to youth polytechnics. I am sure that this year, we will also be recruiting more instructors to help in reviving some of those youth polytechnics. We will also be giving more equipment to some of the already gazetted youth polytechnics. We are also working with development partners like African Development Bank (ADB). We announced the other day where we will be upgrading more polytechnics through the ADB Loan. I think that was also advertized in the newspapers to show the areas that will benefit from the programme. We will be taking more areas as time progresses.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the programmes that the Minister has talked about have been going on since 2003. However, they have not been able to address the unemployment problem in this country. The numbers are still swelling. What are the alternative programmes that you are adding to alleviate unemployment among the youth? We want to see the numbers reducing instead of rising.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as you are aware, the issue of unemployment cannot be sorted out by the Ministry of Youth Affairs and Sports alone. We know that one of the root causes of unemployment is lack of skills by the youths. That is where we are trying to give them skills using the youth polytechnics. If some of the youths have access to some loans or funds through the Youth Enterprise Development Fund, they could become entrepreneurs and, in the process, also create employment. However, we all know that the best employment creation is achieved when the economy is growing. So, there are various indicators that need to show that the economy is growing to be able to absorb the large number of youths who are joining the labour market. However, there is a special segment of the youth population who my Ministry is mandated to take care of; those are the youths between 18 and 35 years.
Bwana Naibu Spika wa Muda, ningependa kumuuliza Minister mambo ya polytechnics. Kuna sehemu ambazo zina shida ya polytechnics kama vile Samburu. Sehemu hii ina shida ya polytechnics kwa sababu makanisa yamechukua vituo hivyo. Sijui wako na mpango gani kuhusu sehemu kama hizo. Pia ningepeda kuuliza swali kuhusu wachungaji misituni. Ningependa kujua Waziri ako na mipango gani kuwahusu.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I need your guidance on whether I should continue in English or change to Kiswahili.
Ahsante. Bwana Naibu Spika wa Muda ameniambia nichague, na mimi nimechagua Kiswahili. Kuhusu vijana wa Samburu ambao wanahusika na ufugaji wa ng’ombe, mpango wa youth polytechnics utasambazwa katika kila maeneo ya ubunge. Kuna sehemu ambazo zilikuwa na polytechnics nyingi kuliko sehemu zingine. Katika sehemu ambazo hazina, tunajaribu kutumia mpango wa affirmative action ili kuziwezesha kuwa na youth polytechnics. Katika youth polytechnics, kuna programmes ambazo zimewekwa ambazo zinalenga vijana wanaotoka eneo kama hilo. Kama wangependa kujifunza jinsi ya kuendesha biashara, mipango itawekwa kulingana na hayo. Kama wanataka fedha ili waweze kuendesha biashara yao, mikakati itawekwa kulingana na matarajio yao. Kitu cha muhimu ni kuwahimiza Wabunge kwamba, katika wakati huu tunaposajili youth polytechnics--- Ikiwa kuna eneo halina, huu ni muda mzuri wa kuja kwetu, kufuatilia na kujua ni youth polytechnics gani ambazo zimewekwa katika mipango ya Serikali. Kama kuna zile ambazo hazijawekwa, itakuwa vizuri ukituletea kupitia kwa Youth Development Officer na DDC ili tujue ni zipi tutaweza kusajili. Nafikiri hilo ni jukumu kubwa la waakilishi wa wananchi.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, listening to the Minister, he has elaborated on so many programmes that if well managed they can really help the youth of the Republic of Kenya, who actually constitute 60 per cent of the Kenyans. We are not sure how he handles some of his programmes like the exchange progammes for the youth. While thanking the partners, I note that the total expenditure by them is US$66 million, which is approximately Kshs7 billion. Could the Minister inform the House of the percentage of the Kenyan participation in this, and what he is doing to ensure that the loyalty of the youth in the Republic of Kenya is to this country?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, hon. Koech is quite right. That is the figure. It is around Kshs7 billion, but we are also aware of our vote books. The Ministry of Sports and Youth Affairs’ budget is very clear. You can see the amount of
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the list of the development partners who are supporting this country in this programme, the Minister has avoided to indicate the programme that was being driven by the former US Ambassador. Is he saying that this was not monitored by the Government? If it was monitored by the Government, how much money was the then ambassador pumping into the programme and which programmes was he supporting?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as you are aware, Dr. Khalwale is very well versed in parliamentary issues and some of the programmes that the Government engages in. Members passed an Act here, the National Youth Council Act of 2009, which clearly stipulates what programmes the youth and the Government prioritize in terms of what we want to achieve. There must be a framework to deliver that. However, that does not stop private individuals from also coming up with their own programmes and drive them, so long as they are allowed in the country. That programme was not channeled through the Ministry of Sports and Youth Affairs or any other youth organization through which we could have captured it officially. There are so many and not just by the United States Government.
There also so many Non-Government Organisations (NGOs) with various other programmes, but they are doing them in their private capacity, so long as doing so is not illegal in the country; I think that is permissible. We only deal with programmes which are within our national youth policy programme, which we think is in line with what we envisaged when we passed the National Youth Council Act. It is very unfortunate that the elections were taken to court and they could not take place. Otherwise, what I am saying
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I commend the Minister for the reply; could he inform this House what the Ministry is doing about the poorly remunerated instructors in our polytechnics?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as you can see, that is a different Question, but as I said earlier, we advertised the other day and came up with a salary scheme for the instructors. Maybe hon. Njuguna can go back and look at it and say whether that remuneration is enough. This is because what he is talking about is a problem we have already worked on. The instructors who are being recruited now, their remuneration is very clear. It was approved. They are also being employed on contractual basis while still seeing how best we can have them employed on permanent basis.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, could the Minister consolidate all these programmes under one umbrella, so that in the long run we do not lose them and their continuity by the Government?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if I heard Dr. Nuh clearly, most of these progrmmes are domesticated in the Ministry of Sports and Youth Affairs, and that is what I said. There could be other programmes that are privately driven; we do not have much to say about them. But the ones which are in the Ministry are catered for in various departments; they are under one ministry but the departments could be different, depending on what the specifics are. For example, we have the Department of NYS, Department of Youth Training and Department of Youth Development, but all are under one umbrella of the Ministry of Sports and Youth Affairs; already they are domesticated in it.
Next Question by Mrs. Noor
asked the Minister for Medical Services:- (a) whether he could table a list of medical doctors, dentists and pharmacists who have been employed in the country since January 2009; and, (b) how many of each category have been posted to North Eastern Province.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) The list of medical doctors, pharmacists and dentists who have been employed in the country since January 2009 is hereby tabled. (b) The following have been posted to North Eastern Province under each category: medical officers 26, dentists 2, pharmacists, 6. The total number of staff posted to North Eastern Province is 34.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have not had an opportunity to look at this list. It is big as you see. I am begging that I am given time so that I will be able to look at it so that I can engage the Minister.
What time do you require?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, tomorrow will be okay for me.
Is tomorrow afternoon okay with you?
Much, obliged, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
The matter will be revisited tomorrow afternoon in order for you to interrogate the answer.
Thank you very much, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me an opportunity to make this Statement. However, I need to apologize and also explain---
Order, Members! Please, consult in lower tones so that the Minister can give her Statement.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I apologise for not being here yesterday to give this Statement. The circumstances are that I was in the House on Thursday to give it, but the Speaker informed me that it had been deferred. Between that time and yesterday, I did not get any chance to issue the Statement because the person who had requested it was absent. I did not know why he was absent. Therefore, I was not able to know when he was going to be available again.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the question has to do with the saga between Mumias Sugar Company and Busia Sugar Company. The background is that Mumias Sugar Company claims to be owed Kshs105,316,821.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. This matter was raised by hon. Okemo. Since he is the local MP he has specific issues and I notice he is not around. I request that we defer the Statement until he comes, so that we take the Statement.
That is not a valid point of order! Continue, Madam Minister!
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. The money was lent to Busia Sugar Company----
He is the local MP!
Do not worry hon. Khalwale. I will explain to Dr. Okemo!
Minister, please, address the House.
The year 2006, Mumias Sugar Company lent money to Busia Sugar Company to pay its farmers because it was said not to be solvent at that time. In the year 2009, the Kenya Sugar Board resolved to appoint an auditor to verify the claim of Mumias Sugar Company. From the verification exercise, a number of issues were outstanding requiring the board to address. The issues included the fact that no sugar factory was commissioned at Busia Sugar Company and Busia Sugar Company owed substantial amounts of money to various creditors; the largest of them being Mumias Sugar Company.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Kenya Sugar Board eventually placed Busia Sugar Company under protective receivership to secure creditors’ assets. It then allowed Mumias Sugar Company to pay the farmers directly and also to work on Busia Sugar Company’s nucleus estate to recover the unpaid amounts. However, money realized by Mumias Sugar Company while managing Nasewa land indicated no cess to Mumias Sugar Company resulting in the move to go to court as the last measure to recover the said money.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, on 8th July, this year, Mumias Sugar Company went before the High Court at Bungoma by way of originating summon suits, No.66 of 2011. The basis of the suit was that Mumias Sugar Company claims to hold a charge over Busia Sugar Company nucleus estate. Busia Company had defaulted in redeeming the land, and a public auction could not raise a purchaser, and according to Mumias Sugar Company it had no choice but to sell the private land to a private company.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Mumias Sugar Company sought an order to sell the Busia Sugar Company nucleas estate, whose number is, Bukhayo, Nasewa 1500 measuring approximately 341.2 hectares valued at about Kshs92,500,000 as per valuation by Tyson Limited of 12th May, 2011. The application exhibited a charge made by Mumias Company on Busia Sugar Company nucleas estate to secure a principal amount of Kshs100 million which it said had been created in June, 2006.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, on 11th July, 2011, the advocate for both parties recorded an order by consent allowing Mumias Sugar Company’s suit as presented. The consent that is between Mumias Sugar Company and Busia Sugar Company was presented to the court on 11th July. On the same day the Deputy Registrar of the High Court in Bungoma actually allowed this land to go ahead to be sold. There was no court decision, however, on the matter.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, finally, the Ministry learnt about the order on 26th July, 2011 from hon. Okemo. We moved quite swiftly and immediately instructed the Kenya Sugar Board to take action and put caution on the sale of land to Kaplony Enterprise Limited. We have since been informed by Kenya Sugar Board that the transfer of the land has been stopped and I table their letter to me. In saying that the sale has been stopped, the Kenya Sugar Board has also investigated and found out that the land has actually not been transferred. I also table that document.
I will take three clarifications and then I will go to the next step, starting with hon. Okemo.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, first, I wish to express my appreciation for the quick action that the Ministry of Agriculture took immediately we learnt of this purported transfer.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, we are worried because earlier indications were that the Kenya Sugar Board was actually going to pay Mumias Sugar Company for the outstanding loan, and actually the Ministry of Agriculture had authorised that. They had gone ahead to ask Kenya Sugar Board to appoint auditors to ascertain the actual loan outstanding. That had gone as far as the point where the auditors had produced the report. The report showed that Mumias Sugar Company owed considerably less than Kshs100 million. In fact, Kshs20 million or thereabout, and I suspect that is what must have prompted Mumias Sugar Company to do what they did and they did it in a very clandestine and illegal manner. Even the documents I have here show that Busia Sugar Company had no legal mandate because there are prohibitory orders which had been put on the title deed. Therefore, it had no capacity either to accept or consent in a court of law for the land to be sold. So, the clarifications I would like to get from the Minister is whether the Kenya Sugar Board will still pay the loan as they had committed themselves earlier. If so, what would be the necessity for Mumias Sugar Company to go to court seeking orders to sell land for which the Government has already committed itself to pay?
Secondly, Mr. Kidero is a member of the Board of Directors of Kenya Sugar Board where the decision was made and he was present. Why then did he have to go and swear an affidavid in court authorising the sale of Busia Sugar Company? Lastly, who are the shareholders of Busia Sugar Company? Does the Government hold shares? If so, how much shareholding?
Order, Mr. Okemo! You cannot get away with the saying “secondly” every time you want to seek more clarifications.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, finally, we would like to know the future of the Nasewa land because the farmers are very much anxious. What the Minister has described here is a temporary situation. We would like to know the long term permanent situation. Will that land revert back to the people of Nasewa and Bukhayo? Will a sugar factory be built on it as has been promised by many members of the Government, including the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance, who said it here during one of his Budget speeches?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, when coffee farmers had a problem in this country the Government intervened. Whenever drought hits the livestock farmers, usually the Government intervenes and helps them to restock. We want to find out what crime the sugar-cane farmers committed against this Government, so that the Government goes to our people and begs them to leave their homes; homes they did not want to leave so that they can give us a factory. It is sad that once that was done, they
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Mr. Okemo needs a clarification on who said they would pay and so on. Let me say from the outset that his aim is the same as that of the Ministry. We must not allow people to descend to more poverty. If the land is theirs, they must not be deprived of that land. I would have liked to come here and say categorically that we can do this today or tomorrow. However, as the hon. Member is aware, we do not have a sugar board right now because the elections took place and we were taken to court because women were not elected. We are trying to find out how to take care of that. I need the board to sit to authorize what we, as a House and the Ministry, are asking for. I do not want to take a unilateral decision. However, if the board is not available for a long time then we will have to do so. I would like Mr. Okemo to work with me because I think what he is trying to do is a duplication of what we are doing. We do not want the farmers to lose their land for nothing. As for the building of another factory, at the moment, we are in a very bad place. The hon. Member is the chairman of the Committee that does privatization. There was an effort to privatise various sugar companies in this country, but as we are aware, the board has not been able to meet. That is not under the Ministry of Agriculture. Nevertheless, if it is not going ahead, we have to work on getting an investor or ask the Government to avail funds for the construction of this factory. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, with regard to the future of the land, in my view and that of the Ministry of Agriculture, the land should go back to the people who owned it from the beginning. So, we are not in contradiction. What I want to do is not to work on the rumours that I have picked. I want to make sure that, first of all, the land has not been transferred. Even if it has been transferred, it can still be re-transferred. This is what we are working on. I have sent numerous people since I got the information last week to check in courts in Bungoma, but there is nothing of that sort. However, the rumours are that somebody may have transferred. I am using the Government machinery to ensure that this land is not transferred, so that we can sort out the debt of Mumias and Busia. That to me is a very different matter from that of the land. We should separate the two and clearly understand that the land belongs to the people. As for coffee and sugar-cane farmers, this is an issue which has now come to us as a problem for Busia. We are trying to handle it in the best way possible for the people there. Any other problems in the sugar industry, we have tried to get new directors, so that they can, probably, be more revolutionary or active in trying to help to do something in this industry. But as I said, that matter is in the court. We want to follow the regulations which are laid out. However, I sympathize and I hear you that sugar-cane, pyrethrum and sisal farmers, just like farmers of other crops deserve assistance. That is what I hope I can give. Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I had raised issues. There is one issue that the Minister has not addressed. That was the fact that the Government had already approved the settlement of that debt by Busia Sugar
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I tried to respond to that question to tell the hon. Member that we are on the same side. As I speak right now, the Sugar Board is not in place. We are not beholden to the point of one person. You are not surely telling me that if we have decided as Members in the House and also at my level in the Ministry that we have to assist the farmers, one person in the Sugar Board will change that. He will not. I have given you an undertaking and I will make sure that this is sorted out.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Minister should still answer the question because she is hiding in the fact that a new board is being formed when she knows that when elections were called the same old directors won the elections. So, the same ones who were being controlled are still the same ones who won the elections and, therefore, we as leaders of sugar-cane farmers, we do not expect any progress. Can she tell us how the Government will intervene?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I find that rather strange. The Ministry does not elect the board members. They are supposed to be elected by the farmers. Is the hon. Member right to try and suggest to me that I have the power to change the will of the people? If we are talking about the land issue, I have undertaken to look into it, so that the farmers do not get disadvantaged. As to the way these people were elected, I do not cast a vote there. They were elected by the farmers.
On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. As much as I appreciate that the Ministry is on the same side as ourselves, I am still a bit baffled. The Ministry of Agriculture had approved that the loan be paid by KSB. I want a categorical commitment that the approval that was given by the Ministry of Agriculture to pay that loan still stands irrespective of whether we have a new board in place or not.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, what I said and I want to say it again, we will sort out the matter. You are telling me about the board and I told you there is no board. We would have liked to follow the regulations which include the concurrence of the board. But I am telling the hon. Member there is no board and, therefore, we will have to take an administrative decision to sort out the matter. How else should I put it?
Very well. That should close that matter. Proceed, Prof. Anyang’-Nyong’o.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to make a Ministerial Statement on allegations that the Pharmacy and Poisons Board clears unsafe drugs for sale to the Kenyan public. This allegation has appeared in the Press and it is being discussed in the ---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The matter the Minister is issuing a Statement on is a matter that the Committee of Health which I chair has already got seized of and we have already held a number of meetings with some of his officers and the Efficiency Monitoring Unit (EMU). We are heading to a position where the Minster himself will appear before the committee. Would I be in order, therefore, to ask that the Ministerial Statement be deferred until the Minister appears before the Committee and we write a report that we will present to this House that will have dealt with this matter comprehensively?
Very well! Dr. Monda, before the Minister responds, I will want to hear you. Can you provide the House with the full details, by way of a Statement, on what exactly the Committee is inquiring into?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, when this matter was brought out by the media---
Order! Just respond to my concern. What is the subject of the matter that the Committee is inquiring into?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are inquiring into what happens with the regulatory body; the Pharmacy and Poisons Board that allows the flow of unregistered drugs and counterfeits into the country and into the market, exposing Kenyans to unsafe drugs. This is what we are looking into.
Very well! Is the Minister aware that that is the subject of your inquiry as a Committee?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have summoned some of his officers through his Ministry. Therefore, we expect that he should be aware of this. I am looking at a situation where the Minister could be pre-empting what we are headed to uncover.
Order! That is not the right way to go. The word “pre-empt” is imputing improper motive on the part of the Minister. So, I am afraid you will have to withdraw the word “pre-empt” in the context of this matter. Just withdraw that word and leave it there.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I withdraw the “pre-empting” and indicate that the Minister is headed to where we are headed. We have already summoned the Pharmacy and Poisons Board to appear before us on Tuesday.
Will you stop there because you have done well? Minister, of course, if your officers have been summoned, then you will be aware that this inquiry is going on by the Committee.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have no letter on my desk and no information from the Committee that my officers have been summoned. I have been following this matter ever since it appeared in the Press as is my responsibility and I think the Committee would benefit a great deal to listen to me and to use the information I will give them for their further inquiry if, indeed, they are doing so. But on my desk, I have absolutely no information that such an endeavour is being undertaken.
Very well, Minister! You have now heard it and we must take the word of a Member of Parliament, including yourself as a Minister, to be factual until proved otherwise. So, given the provisions of our Standing Orders, now that the matter is under inquiry by the Committee, you cannot be allowed to issue a Statement until the Committee has completed its inquiry. Of course, Hon. Minister, if the Committee summons you, you will live within the provisions and spirit of the Standing Orders and act appropriately.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Will it be in order for me to request that the Committee informs the Minister when his officers are summoned to appear before the Committee so that we can be on the same wave length? Unless I have official information, either from the Clerk or the Committee, I would not know what is happening in Heaven or on Earth.
Dr. Monda, you do not have to respond to that. Minister, if your Ministry is functioning regularly in accordance with the standards of governance practice, then your officers will not come to attend a Committee meeting in Parliament without you being put on notice. So, there is something that you need to sort out in-house at the Ministry and not here, certainly. Minister, please, allow this matter to rest where it is. Before you are requested to attend the Committee, you will be given adequate notice through the Clerk’s office so that we give you time to prepare and you will be treated with all courtesies that you deserve.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, last week, the Member for Budalangi, hon. Namwamba, had sought a Ministerial Statement from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs on the situation in Somalia. This morning again, we made a commitment that we would issue the Ministerial Statement this afternoon, but unfortunately, there are two reasons why that statement is not ready. First, some of the information that hon. Namwamba wanted had not arrived at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and, therefore, I would seek your indulgence to postpone the issuance of that Statement. Secondly, there have been very critical developments in Somalia and, as a result, I wanted up-to-date information, so that I do not mislead the House or we are not able to inform the House effectively. So, with a lot of humility, I am requesting that the Statement be delivered on Tuesday next week.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in fact, this was my request, but nonetheless, even if hon. Namwamba contributed, I am willing to wait until Tuesday.
If it was your request, then the HANSARD record is accordingly corrected.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it was my request and I am willing to wait up to Tuesday next week.
You are happy to wait up to Tuesday afternoon?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
It is so directed! We will now take requests for Statements.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to seek a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Medical Services concerning the deaths of four children at the Thika Level Five Hospital between 5th and 6th August, 2011. In the Statement, the Minister should state the real causes of the deaths and whether they were due to lack of oxygen as claimed, and or, there was negligence on the part of the hospital staff. I would also want the Minister to state what action the Ministry has taken to address this issue in order to avert further deaths in the future.
Minister, when will you make this Statement?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will issue the Statement to the House on Tuesday next week.
r: Very well! It is so directed.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to request for a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Foreign Affairs.
Order, hon. Ruto! I have no notice that you will be requesting for a Ministerial Statement. Of course the Standing Orders tell you what you need to do.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, under the Standing Order No.1since you---
Order! You cannot.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a Ministerial Statement from the Minister of Labour on the summary dismissal of 400 employees of the African Safari Club in Mombasa who have been camping every day, for 24 hours, at the premises of the proprietor of the club since 4th August, 2011, following their dismissal. In the Statement, I would like the Minister to:-
(i) State whether he is aware of the incident and, if so, indicate whether the due process was followed by the employer before sacking the employees.
(ii) Indicate the measures he will take to ensure that all the laid off staff are paid their dues as required by the labour laws. (iii) Give us a timeframe as to when the employees will be paid all their dues.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. On the same matter, I would like to seek further clarification from the Minister whether he is aware that there was a court ruling on the same issue of about Kshs50 million. What does he intend to do to ensure that these Kenyans, who have been sleeping in the rain and in the sun throughout the week, like hon. Yakub has said, are paid in time?
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Do you want to supplement that request, Member for Ikolomani?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Very well. Proceed.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the matter of the African Safari Club has been coming here. I believe this is the third time it has come here. Could the Minister, when he comes with the Statement, also indicate the total indebtedness of the African Safari Club to the workers, so that should he choose to agree with them that they should be laid off, he tells us what he intends to do to ensure that these people are paid what they are owed?
Do you want to add to that request?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, because this matter has been coming to this House so many times, could the Minister also disclose when answering that question, who the owners of the African Safari Club Company Limited are? This is because they appear to be getting away with impunity. So, could the Minister tell the House who the proprietors of this company are?
Yes, Minister for Labour! He is not around? Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs, can you hold brief for your colleague? It is an urgent matter.
Yes, it is, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I will inform my colleague. Could the Ministerial Statement be issued on Wednesday next week, with your permission?
It is so directed! Yes, hon. Affey!
On a point Order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise under Standing Order No. 76 to issue a Personal Statement.
Yesterday, this House approved the nomination of Rev. Kobia to be a member of the Judicial Service Commission. I stood here to support the nominee of the President. I thanked the Committee for being emphatic and united in this nomination. I was surprised that a section of the media, particularly The Daily Nation, this morning reported that I was the only hon. Member of this House who rejected that nomination.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the media have a responsibility to be factual and truthful in their reporting. I have a copy of the HANSARD here, and it confirms that I supported the Motion. I was very clear in my mind that Rev. Kobia qualifies and deserves the position. I think he will be useful to the Judicial Service Commission.
I want to plead with the Chair that this matter, which has been reported negatively and without any basis of truth by The Daily Nation, be corrected in a very prominent way. I take this opportunity to request Rev. Mutava Musyimi, who is my Departmental Committee Chairman, to personally look for Rev. Kobia and apologise to him; Rev.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
On the same matter hon. Affey has raised?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Very well! You may proceed.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was in the House yesterday and today I was surprised to see in The Daily Nation the name of hon. Affey reported as having opposed the Motion. The House yesterday unanimously endorsed the nomination of Rev. Kobia. So, I request that the concerned media house be reprimanded and asked to apologise very prominently in the newspapers.
Order! Order, hon. Members! I have heard the sentiments expressed by hon. Affey and as articulated on a point of order and supported by Mrs. Odhiambo-Mabona. Those concerns, obviously, are very legitimate. I have previously given directions with respect to reportage by the media, and the minimum I expect is that the media will be responsible, and that they will report accurately and, further, that they will be user-friendly to all stakeholders, who include Members of Parliament. We are supposed to be serving a common purpose with the media although occasionally, the media does not agree with us. In governance matters, we ought to be aiming to achieve the same goal. So, this, obviously, is not very interesting. I want to leave it to the concerned media house, which is the Nation Media Group, to take corrective measures. If they fail to do so, I shall then make a further communication, which will include possible sanctions against the concerned media house. They are, therefore, on notice to try and manage themselves. I have heard many times the media contending that they have internal control mechanisms. Let us give that long rope to them and see if they will take measures to correct this wrong impression. Yes, Member for Chepalungu.
On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to seek a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Foreign Affairs on the safety of Kenyans residing in London as riots continue uncontrollably there. The police appear to be a bit unruly as well. Could the Minister also tell us whether he intends to issue a travel advisory to Kenyans not to visit that particular country? Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order! Order, hon. Members! Member for Chepalungu, you had made a request, which I approved, and which is fine, except that you have introduced substance in your request which I did not approve. So, I want you to immediately withdraw the words alluding to the police being unruly. Stick to the substance I approved because, under Standing Order No.36, Paragraph 3, you are supposed to notify the Chair
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I withdraw the part that deals with the police as I expect the Minister to include it in his Statement.
I withdraw the words “the police are unruly”. I have no evidence.
Just withdraw those words and stop there.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I withdraw the words “the police are unruly” but I expect the Minister to---
Order! Order, Member for Chepalungu! Minister, when will you deliver the Ministerial Statement?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to tell my comrade that that is actually a very weighty matter right now. The Ministry is seized with it. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs will issue an official Statement on Tuesday. We are carefully and systematically making sure that we monitor the situation. At least for now we have not received any report of any Kenyan who has been injured. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
It is directed that the Statement be delivered on Tuesday afternoon. Yes, Member for Rarieda.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on Thursday, 4th August, 2011, I sought a Ministerial Statement on a matter I thought was not only urgent but also of national importance. That is on the wrangles at the Interim Independent Electoral Commission (IIEC). The Leader of Government Business had assured us that the Statement would be brought to the House today. I have not heard of the Statement being brought and I was just wondering if you could so direct.
Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs, the request for a Ministerial Statement on the IIEC was directed to you.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, can I issue the Statement on Wednesday next week, please?
Member for Rarieda, is that okay with you?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this matter is extremely urgent, and that is the basis upon which the Leader of Government Business undertook to bring the Statement today. Surely, Wednesday is a long time to come. Most of the information we need should be sitting at the databank of the IIEC.
Minister, can you do it on Tuesday afternoon? You have a whole weekend to prepare.
I will do so, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
It is so directed, and that brings us to the end of that Order. Next Order.
Order, hon. Members! A matter has come to my attention that we should have attended to just before we go to Order No.8. It suffices for me to remind all hon. Members that there will be a Speaker’s Kamukunji tomorrow from 10.00 a.m. All Members of Parliament are urged to attend that Kamukunji. We have indication from both the Front Bench and Back Bench that they will all be present. There may be important decisions to be made. It is critical that you are part and parcel of whatever decisions will be made. Next Order!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, with your kind permission, I rise to move:- THAT the Kenya National Human Rights Commission Bill (2011) be now read a Second Time. The main purpose of this Bill is to provide a very urgent legislative framework for promotion and protection of human rights. In establishing this framework, the Bill seeks to restructure the Kenya National Human Rights and Equality Commission so as to establish a Kenya National Human Rights Commission as the successor thereof. You will find that in Clause 3(2). Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Constitution of Kenya expressly identifies respect for human rights as one of the national values and principles of governance. I do not have to refer you to Article 10 of the Constitution. The Constitution further affirms that the purpose of recognizing and protecting human rights and fundamental freedoms is to preserve the dignity of individuals and communities and to promote social justice and the realization of the potential of all human beings. That is so ably put in Article 19(2). Further still, it is now a fundamental duty of the State and every organ to observe, respect, protect, promote and fulfill the rights and fundamental freedoms in the Bill of Rights. Again, this is very well put in Article 21(1) of the Constitution. This is in keeping with modern Constitutions which guarantee human rights. In addition, several international and regional treaties commit States to protect rights within their borders. The protection of human rights and gender equity along with the constitutional governance is an indispensable and integral part of the enabling environment for economic, social, religious, political and cultural development. Through the international treaties, Kenya has undertaken to protect human rights and the Constitution requires in Article 25 and Article 26 that this and other international obligations be implemented. These include the rights of women and children to which the Act directs special attention.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to second the Bill. I thank the Minister for bringing this Bill in time; in any case, before 27th August this year as required by the Constitution of Kenya and, particularly, the relevant schedule. I would like to thank the Minister for saying, right from the outset, that should there be any part of the Bill that Members are not happy with, then during the Third Reading, amendments can be discussed. This is a very important Bill and everything possible should be done to ensure that we have a Bill that will help the country move forward from the past, and transit from the period where we had an
Order, hon. Orengo! Proceed and make your contribution. Do not be distracted by Mr. Imanyara.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I can chew gum and walk at the same time.
Proceed! Is that the impression you are giving now? I know hon. Imanyara was your comrade in arms, but proceed.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I was saying that these rights were not granted by the State and are not limited to those that are enumerated in Chapter 4; that should be well understood because some people are fond of just waiving the Bill of Rights, and thinking that is all there is. At least in the Constitution that we had before its amendment when we were saying discrimination on the ground of sex was unconstitutional, or was not within the dignity of man as expressed in many of the universal instruments; the tendency was to say that it was not provided in our Constitution. People took the position that this Bill of Rights contained all the rights, but the current Bill of Rights tells us that not all the rights are in it, and they could be elsewhere. They could be in international instruments like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and all that. So, I think this Constitution has done a good job in trying to put the human rights in their appropriate perspective. The Bill that we are debating is one of the mechanisms to ensure that the respect of human rights is part of the culture of our democracy, and there are institutional mechanisms to make sure that there is the fullest enjoyment of human rights in this country.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, one of the things which, again, the current Constitution has departed from is on the derogation of human rights in contra distinction with the old Constitution. The old Constitution gave latitude to courts and other people who were concerned with dominating our political life, and were oppressive in their manner and conduct to emphasise derogations rather than rights. In reading the provisions relating to human rights, they would enforce the derogations rather than the rights themselves; I think there is an appropriate balance in this, particularly as read with Article 24 of the
On a point of information, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order! Member for Ugenya, do you want information from the Member for Imenti Central?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to inform my good friend that hon. M. Kilonzo hosted him, but after he came back here, he did not live up to the expectations of those days. He justified some of the worst atrocities that were perpetrated by the Moi regime.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, let us not live in the past. These Bills are being brought by hon. M. Kilonzo. He is playing a very fundamental role.
Order, Member for Ugenya. You conceded to be informed.
I do not want just to swallow it. With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I start to contribute I want to say that I was a little surprised that the Minister did not speak about the recent events surrounding these Bills, that are currently under debate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as you know, we, as a House, went to discuss the viability of having these Bills come as three Bills, two or even one. I do not know whether he deliberately avoided talking about it for his reasons or because maybe, he is not convinced, what the consensus was in Mombasa that we have two Bills, one for the Kenya Human Rights Commission, and one for the Gender Commission.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the background of that was the argument that the Kenya National Human Rights and Equality Commission had been formed. It is important as this debate goes on that we do realize that the Constitution has already put in place the Kenya National Human Rights and Equality Commission. Therefore, what we are doing is using another provision within this Constitution to then break up this bigger body into
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand to support this Motion. A Human Rights Commission is an important institution in the social economic and political development of any nation. A time has come for us to walk the talk. We must defend the human rights of our people.
Days are gone when human rights organizations used to be like an NGO. They used to be like an arm of the civil society. They used to be an arm of the donor community. We want to establish a human rights organization, or Commission that lives up to the Constitution and implementation of the Bill of Rights.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am coming from a background where for many years, in many successive governments - the Government of the first President, the
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would like to congratulate Mr. M. Kilonzo for the work he has put into this Bill and start by saying that I strongly support it. As I support this Bill, I am reminded that Kenyans have come a very long way. On that long journey, we have had very many sad moments. If this kind of law was there, I believe Josiah Mwangi Kariuki would not have been assassinated like a dog because he was fighting for social justice. I believe that Dr. Robert Ouko would not have been assassinated because he was fighting corruption. I believe that Tom Mboya would still be an old man living in this country if the issue of human rights was respected. For this and many other reasons I strongly believe that the Bill of Rights in our new Constitution which we are now giving effect to, is actually one of the many reasons why Kenyans overwhelmingly supported the introduction of the new Constitution. It is the reason why Kenyans continue to celebrate the new Constitution. Therefore, this House cannot fail them. We must give them this piece of legislation, so that their hopes are actualized. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, when I was a small boy at the University of Nairobi, I do not know whether I should say with nostalgia, but I remember that early morning in August, 1982, when we left the campus and went to the streets because we wanted to expand the democratic space in this country. It is sad that as we left Hall 4 with my brother Titus Adungosi, we all went out there, danced in the streets, did what we did, came back to the hall, we were chased away, but after arrest, Titus Adungosi was murdered. I hope that the TJRC will be true to its name and calling and ensure that the death of Titus Adungosi is addressed with the weight that it deserves. I also wonder what history will write about the chiefs who for one and a half years, after we had been expelled from the university because we were fighting for expanded democratic space, jailed us at chiefs’ camps where we used to go and work like slaves. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this Parliament must remember the work that the current Speaker in the Chair did. However, we must also remember that we have other politicians who are not lucky enough to be in this House, who did a lot of work. I remember as a member of the NCEC one evening when Prof. Kivutha Kibwana, former Member of Parliament of this House in the last Parliament, came to address people in Western Province. Later, we had to cover him up so that he looked like a woman; we then took him to the Akamba Bus, so that he could come back to Nairobi at night. These are gallant sons of this country who we must really honour. Before I forget, I also want to celebrate hon. James Orengo. I remember as members of Mageuzi, there was a day when we wanted to go to Busia to address people there with hon. Orengo, hon. Mukhisa Kituyi and the late hon. Enock Nyankieya Magara. Our vehicles were taken away from us and we walked on foot for 30 kilometres to reach the rally so that we could address Kenyans there.
Mr. Mwatela): Asante sana, Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda. Ningependa kuanza kwa kumpongeza Waziri M. Kilonzo, ambaye anafanya kazi yake kwa bidii sana, kwa kuleta Mswada huu ambao, bila shaka, tutaupitisha kuwa sheria. Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, sikumbuki ni mwaka upi, lakini utakumbuka nilikuja kukuona hospitali ukiwa umefungwa pingu na umefungiwa kwenye kitanda, tukiwa na jirani yako, Dr. Kiriti. Hali hiyo ni ya kudunisha ubinadamu. Mswada huu ni kama kilele cha vita dhidi ya kukosa heshima kwa utu. Ninaunga mkono wale ambao walitangulia kuzungumza, lakini pia ningetaka kuongeza kuwa wengi waliochangia sana katika kufikia hali hii ni watu wa hali ya chini kimasomo ambao walijitolea. Walikuwa akina mama na hata vijana. Wakati tunaposema kuwa ni lazima mtu awe na shahada ya chuo kikuu ndio aketi kwenye Tume hii, haifai. Wakati wa kupigana hivi vita, tulikuwa
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I stand to support the Bill in general, although there are many questions about specifics. Before I say anything, I am privileged and humbled that I had the opportunity of rubbing shoulders and meeting those heroes who have fought for human rights. We have seen them and we saw how they suffered. We have seen hon. Orengo, Dr. Khalwale, you and many others. I wonder whether I can even begin to put myself on the bottom of the last page in this aspect. What they have done and the Constitution that we have given to this country, we have the privilege of being part of. There are questions being raised, such as: If the Bill of Rights had been there earlier, would we have suffered or not? Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to say very clearly today that I come from an area that was denied its rights and was suppressed. We were not given anything and even as late as 2007, 87 Luo youths were shot dead like dogs. In Luo Nyanza, Kisumu, used to be the crown of this Republic. However, due to previous wrongs, this position was reversed. I wish I was able to turn back the clock; I would have liked to see this Constitution at that time. We fought for the Constitution and we are very pleased that it is here. When I read the Constitution in part 5, it clearly talks about the Kenya Human Rights and Equality Commission. When I read the Bill that has been presented, it talks about the Kenya Human Rights Commission Bill. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we were in Mombasa, where we were taken through not only The Kenya National Commission on Human Rights Bill but also The National Gender and Equality Commission Bill. What came out very clearly then was that the new Constitution, which we will protect with our lives, says, at Article 59(4):- “59(4) Parliament shall enact legislation to give full effect to this Part, and any such legislation may restructure the commission into two or more separate commissions”.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the key words here are “Parliament shall enact”. The Constitution does not say that it should be done in any other way. Therefore, I feel that it is unconstitutional to have two Commissions set up in this manner. Article 59(1) of the Constitution establishes the Kenya National Human Rights and Equality Commission. Article 59(4), that I have just quoted, vests the power in Parliament to legislate. I am wondering whether the Bills that were sent to the Minister and the alternative Bill that was sent for his perusal make any impression on him, and whether, in fact, he has covered some of those items. I will be very keen to know whether he has or has not. One issue which was brought out very clearly in Mombasa was that for whatever reason,
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to start by congratulating the Minister for having thought it prudent to restructure the Kenya National Human Rights and Equality Commission as envisaged in Article 59 of the new Constitution. I have heard our colleague wonder whether what we are doing is unconstitutional. On 27th August, 2010, when the new Constitution was promulgated, the Kenya National Human Rights and Equality Commission automatically came into place. The National Gender Commission became unconstitutional at that time. So, from 27th August, 2010, what has been in operation is the Kenya National Human Rights and Equality Commission but now Parliament has been given powers through Article 59(4) to restructure that body, so that it can operate fully on the mandate it is going to be given. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this Bill comes in at a time when the Kenya National Human Rights commissioners, prior to the promulgation of the new Constitution, had done a lot of work. They are internationally recognised. They have been carrying out universal periodic reviews at intervals under this umbrella. They have done all that work not alone but together with the National Gender Commission, which had been in place then. Article 59(4) now allows us to strengthen what they were already doing prior to the promulgation of the new Constitution, so that we can move on, and in order for them to do as much work as possible. There is a robust Bill of Rights which runs in the new Constitution for 23 pages – from page 20 to page 43. The work load is heavy. The Kenya National Human Rights Commission already has so much on its hands, as per the new Constitution. So, the right way to go is to have the two Commissions in place, so that they can carry out their work as mandated in the new Constitution. What is important to note is that apart from the universal periodic reviews that the Kenya National Human Rights Commission will continue to do, as they were doing prior to the promulgation of the new Constitution, they will also start making Parliamentary Reports. That is very important because Parliament is home of the representatives of all Kenyans. It is, therefore, important for Parliament to know what the Kenya National Human Rights Commission will be doing. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I cannot stop thinking as my colleagues who spoke here; hon. James Orengo, and hon. Khalwale made reference to what transpired at the time when we did not have the Kenya National Human Rights Commission, prior to the formation of the same body in 2003. I just want to add onto the list. We had
Hon. Members, you will permit me to allow hon. Members of the Islamic faith to speak first so that they can go to break the fast. Mr. Affey, please, proceed!
Thank you very much Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for that consideration. I think that is the right thing to do. I rise to support this Bill. I want to thank the Minister for the manner in which he has been persistent in asking the country to support this Bill and other Bills that are underway. The issue of human rights is so critical that we, as a country, struggled to change the Constitution for over 20 years. One of the main reasons why we did this was the fact that we wanted to have a robust Bill of Rights in our Constitution. Over the years, basic human rights have been violated quite openly in total disregard of the law by the Government, particularly the police. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I support this Bill, I want to encourage the Minister because I know there will be a lot of complaints regarding basic rights violations--- In this Bill, I do not see an attempt to do some mediation. In the United
Order, Mr. Affey! Do not anticipate debate! Keep yourself to this!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank you so much for giving me this opportunity. I only thought that I should say this because I might not have an opportunity tomorrow. I support this Bill and congratulate the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir for granting me this opportunity to contribute to this very important Bill. I will start by thanking the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs for the very unique enthusiasm he has shown in the implementation of the new Constitution. The new Bill will address some of the concerns that Kenyans have really laboured for and bothered about for the past 60 years. This Bill is geared towards bringing faster prosperity to this country. Promotion of human rights, in totality, will be the key element in this Bill. You will realize that in our courts, files disappear and you get justice through buying. You will also realize that there have been cases - almost totaling to one million - that have not been heard. This is denial of justice to innocent Kenyans. In our roads, there are many traffic police officers and yet, there are many accidents. What is really happening on our roads? Fake driving licences have been
Thank you Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. From the outset, I would like to congratulate the Minister for this timely Bill. I think he is really up to the challenge. I support this Bill. I am not averse to any supportive amendments that can strengthen the Bill further. This Bill provides the meaning to the Bill of Rights, the Peoples’ Chapter in our Constitution. This Bill also gives hope to the marginalized; those who do not have food on their table today, shelter and those who have not been able to live the Kenyan dream. This Bill will provide a principle organ of the State that will not only monitor, but also enable the enforcement of the Bill of Rights which has long been overdue. This Bill will also bring to an end what some of us, from northern Kenya, call collective punishment. When some bandits or thugs commit crime, the whole community is punished due to the Government’s failure to safeguard the livelihoods of those people. All their livestock is surrounded for a day or two and people are physically tortured when, in fact, most of them are innocent. I hope that the issue of collective punishment, especially by security organs, will cease. I hope that the Commission, once in place, will ensure that the rights of every Kenyan are safeguarded. This Bill will also usher in a new culture of tolerance where human rights and liberties are respected across the board, both by State organs as well as by all Kenyans. I hope that the Commission, once in place, and with the constitutional mandate it has, will force all the State organs to respect human rights. In some parts of this country where the presence of the State is not well felt, we feel that the civil rights and liberties of some Kenyans are trampled upon especially by security organs. We hope that this Commission will live up to the task of ensuring that the rights of all Kenyans are protected as much as possible.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, along the Kenya-Ethiopian border, we have had several massacres. In my own lifetime, I know of Elbeso, Turbi and Kokai massacres. One of them in particular the Elbeso massacre comes to my mind in a very special way. I remember it was in 1984. I was in Class Seven and in the morning, I witinessed a massacre of 50 families, and two of them were my own cousins; a whole family – the parents and the five children - were wiped out. When these massacres occur, even the media reports them as “50 persons or cattle rustlers were killed or 50 Gabbras or Turkanas were killed”. We are not even given the right to be referred to as Kenyans who have been killed. When these massacres occur, there is no commission or authority to really take this Government to task and make it accountable for the lives of those Kenyans who have been massacred, mostly by foreigners largely, in my case, from Ethiopia. I strongly believe that once this Commission is in place and does its job as mandated by the Constitution, and as a constitutional commission, it will be able to take the Government to task and ensure that the lives and livelihoods of Kenyans are protected.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Bill of Rights provides for right to food and shelter, but who is going to monitor and also ensure that the Government lives up to that duty? If this Commission will be in place and does its job as required by the Constitution, then Kenyans who are suffering today will actually sue the State with the
Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, nashukuru kwa kunipa fursa hii ili pia niweze kuchangia Mswada huu muhimu sana. Nitaanza kwa kusema kuwa ninaunga mkono kwa dhati sheria hii pendekezi ya kubuni tume ambayo ndiyo itakuwa mlinzi, au bawabu, wa haki za kibinadumu na wananchi wa taifa hili tukufu la Kenya. Ningependa kumshukuru sana Waziri was Haki, Utangamano wa Kitaifa na Maswala ya Kikatiba, mhe Mutula Kilonzo, kwa harakati zote ambazo amechukua kuhakikisha kuwa shughuli hii ya kutekeleza Katiba hii mpya inaenda kwa kasi inayostahili. Ni vyema Wakenya wafahamu kuwa utekelezaji wa Katiba si swala rahisi kwa sababu tumo kwenye shughuli ya kubadili misingi ya taifa hili.
Kwa hivyo, changamoto zile ambazo tunashuhudia katika safari hii ya kutekeleza Katiba mpya si changamoti ngeni. Ni changamoto ambazo mataifa yote ambayo yamejaribu kubadilisha misingi ya taifa jinsi ambavyo tunjaribu hapa yamekumbana nayo.
Vile vile, nataka kumshukuru dada yangu, Mhe Naomi Shaban, kwa mchango wake, na hasa kwa kuwaahamasisha Wabunge kuhusu sheria hii ya Tume ya Haki, na vile vile sheria ile inayohusu tume ya kusimamia maswala ya jinsia na usawa. Tumekuwa kule Pwani wikendi iliyopita ambapo tulipata fursa ya kushughlikia sheria hizi mbili katika kongamano hilo; naamini limechangia sana kuwaahamasisha Wabunge na kutuweka katika hali bora kabisa kuchangia Mswada huu.
Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, historia inatufunza kuwa hakuna jamii yoyote inayoendelea ikiwa ni jamii ambayo hailindi na haichungi kwa uangalifu sana maslahi ya wananchi wake. Katika mazingira ya dhuluma na ukandamizaji wa haki za kibinadamu, hakuna maendeleo yanayowezekana. Hata maswala ya umoja, amani na utulivu hayawezekani katika mazingira ya dhuluma. Hatuwezi kuwa jamii iliyo na umoja, usawa na amani ikiwa sisi ni jamii ambayo haitazami kwa makini haki za kila moja wetu. Jamii yetu ya Kenya ni jamii ambayo imekuwa na historia ya dhuluma. Imekuwa na historia ya ukandamizaji wa haki za wananchi wa taifa hili. Kumekuwa na mauji ya kiholela. Ukitazama historia ya taifa hili, kuna Wakenya ambao wamepoteza maisha yao. Ukitazama historia ya taifa hili tangu tupate Uhuru, utapata kwamba kumekuwa na mauaji ambayo mpaka leo hatujajua chanzo chake na hatujapata jibu. Akina Tom Mboya, J.M. Kariuki, Robert Ouko na Odhiambo Mbai. Hawa ni Wakenya ambao walipoteza maisha yao kwa njia ya kiholela kutokana na dhuluma na ukandamizaji wa haki za wananchi wa taifa hili. Swala hili limekera taifa hili tangu tupate Uhuru.
Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, ukitazama historia yetu utaona kwa miaka mingi wananchi walinyimwa haki za kujieleza, kufikiria na kutoa maoni yao. Huu ulikuwa ni ukandamizaji wa hali ya juu.
Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda na Waziri wa Ardhi, Bw. Orengo, ni miongoni mwa viongozi walikuwa wahasiriwa wa dhuluma hizo za ukandamizaji wa wakati huo. Yetu ni historia iliyojaa dhuluma. Taifa letu liliwanyima nafasi watu walikuwa na maoni na misimamo tofauti ya kisiasa. Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, jambo ambalo tunalolishughulikia wakati huu tunapobuni sheria hii ni kuvunja minyororo ya ukandamizaji. Minyororo hii imewafunga Wakenya kwa takriban nusu karne tangu tupate Uhuru. Tume hii tunayobuni ni tume ambao ina misingi ya kikatiba. Tume hii inabuniwa kwa misingi ya Kipengee 59 cha Katiba mpya. Ni kipengee ambacho kimetoa fursa kwa Bunge hili kubuni sheria maalum
Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, ninasimama kuunga mkono Hoja hii. Mswada huu umewasilishwa wakati unaofaa. Mswada huu unahusu kutekelezwa kwa Katiba yetu. Huu ni mojawapo wa Miswada tunaohitajika kupitisha. wananchi wanataka tupitishe Miswada hii kwa haraka sana ili waweze kufurahia matunda ya Katiba mpya. Jambo la pili ni kuwa Mswada huu unazingatia haki za maisha ya binadamu katika nchi yetu. Ikiwa tutaupitisha Mswada huu, basi mambo haya yatekelezwe mara moja. Mswada huu hautakuwa na maana kwa wananchi ikiwa tutakuwa na vikundi vitatu vya watu; wale watatii sheria, wengine watakuwa wakitaka kutii sheria kwa mbali na wengine watapenda kuvunja sheria hii wakiwa usukani au mamlakani. Kwa nini ninasema hivyo? Hii ni kwa sababu miaka mingi tulikaliwa na mkoloni aliyevunja haki za binadamu za Mwaafrika. Tuliupigania Uhuru wetu na tulipopata Uhuru, tulishangilia utawala wa Mwafrika na tukasema tutaheshimu haki zetu. Ni dhahiri kuwa mambo yote yalienda kinyume na matarajio yetu. Tumeshuhudia vifo vya watu vya watu mashuhuri na wa kawaida katika nchi yetu tukufu hapa. Mauaji haya yalitekelezwa na watu fulani. Hata hivyo, wale waliohusika na mauaji haya hawajawahi kufikishwa mahakamani. Sheria za nchi hii huumiza sana watu wanyonge. Ikiwa mtu ataiba kuku, anachukuliwa hatua kali sana. Wakati mwingi, mwizi wa kuku hufungwa zaidi ya miaka 10. Lakini wanaoua wenzao na kupora mali ya wananchi wa Kenya kwa sababu wako madarakani, wanaachiliwa huru. Ikiwa Tume hii haitatekeleza kazi yake inavyotakikana, basi tutakuwa tunapoteza wakati wetu hapa Bungeni.
Asante Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda kwa kunipatia muda na mimi pia niungane na Wabunge wenzangu kuchangia Mswada huu. Kwanza, ningetaka kutoa shukrani kwa Waziri anayehusika kwa kuleta huu Mswada muhimu ambao unalenga kulainisha sheria kuambatana na Katiba mpya.
Tuko na Kamati ya Haki za Binadamu na pia juzi, tulipata yale matarajio ambayo tunaweza kutarajia kutokana na utekelezaji wa sheria hii. Ninaunga mkono maoni ambayo yametolewa na waliozungumza mbele yangu kwamba katika nchi hii, tangu zamani, Katiba ya nchi hii imekuwa na sura ya kupeana haki kwa binadamu. Lakini ukweli ni kwamba, katika historia yetu kama taifa, kuanzia wakati wa Ukoloni, tumekuwa na tabia na mazoea mabaya. Wanaotakiwa kuiga sheria na kutoa huduma kwa nchi hii hawaheshimu haki za binadamu. Hii tabia mbaya na mazoea mabaya yalianza wakati wa ukoloni, hasa, katika harakati za kukomboa nchi hii ambapo vikosi vya usalama vilitumika kukandamiza wananchi na kuwapeleka mahakamani bila kujali haki zao. Hata wakawa wanafanyiwa kesi mahakamani bila kujali haki zao. Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, wakati tulipata Uhuru, wengine walipoteza haki na pia ari yao. Wengi waliuwawa kinyama na wakati tulipopata Uhuru, matarajio ya wananchi yalikuwa kwamba uhuru uliwatoa kwenye dhuluma za wakati wa ukoloni. La kushangaza ni kwamba, hata wakati tulipata Uhuru, badala ya kurekebisha na kubadilisha mwelekeo wa Serikali ya Ukoloni, tuliendelea na ile tabia. Hii Kamati ya Haki za Binadamu iliundwa juzi na tunajua vile ambavyo imekuwa ikifanya kazi. Wakati mwingine, imepata pingamizi kubwa kutoka kwa Serikali ilhali
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank you for allowing me to add my voice to the debate on this very important Bill, which has come at the right time. When Kenya attained Independence, the founding father of this nation, the late President Kenyatta, declared war on poverty, disease and ignorance. This declaration was as a result of Kenyans having been deprived of their basic human rights. It was the hope of every Kenyan that after attainment of Independence, their basic human rights, which had been suppressed, would be guaranteed. However, after many years of Independence, the situation was not as expected. People became poorer. A lot of diseases came up as a result of poor services. There was a polluted environment and failure by the Government to provide services to the people. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this Bill gives a new hope to Kenyans. Following the promulgation of the new Constitution, every Kenyan has been looking upon the Bill of Rights to address some of the issues that have been affecting them throughout the various regimes that have been there. As we all know, there was suppression of freedom of speech. Violation of this basic right caused a lot of people to speak in whispers or speak while looking over their shoulders to see if somebody was listening to the opinions they were to give otherwise they would say what the authorities wanted to hear. Once this Bill is enacted, people will be guaranteed of the freedom of speech, which will make them talk freely and give their opinions. It will make every Kenyan to express his or her inner feelings about issues affecting the country. This is a basic right Kenyans have been denied for a long time. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we are facing famine. Many hon. Members have spoken about famine, but not famine as a result of drought but rather famine as a result of poverty. It is the poor who are suffering. It is the poor who cannot access food because they have no money with which to buy food. It is the poor in respect of whom when their plight is made known to the world by the agents of the Government in the field, the same Government punishes those who have spoken the truth. It is this Bill of Rights which will guarantee workers their rights, be they persons working in the national Government or in the County Governments. Whoever will be executing whatever duties will be guaranteed freedom in his or her place of work. This is because the Constitution gives Kenyans the right to belong to trade unions and associations and the right to demonstrate. These rights will give somebody who is working a new lease of life. Currently, some workers cannot even talk. Civil servants say: “We cannot talk because our bosses speak on our behalf”. Recently, we saw what happened in Turkana. We all witnessed the suffering of the children, women and old people. When a chief comes out and speaks the truth, the truth that can be seen even with the blind that they were dying, you hear that the chiefs are supposed to follow a certain bureaucracy so that the plight of those who are dying is said. However, when following that bureaucracy, people are still dying or are about to die. This Bill will guarantee such chiefs the right to talk. It will guarantee civil servants the right to form trade unions. It will also give a chance to the Armed Forces to air their
Mr. Ruteere, I would like you to wind up within the next two minutes.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will do that. I support the Bill.
Minister, it is your time to reply.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is another historic moment for the country. This is an implementation legislation for the Constitution. I want to salute this distinguished House for rising to the occasion and speaking with one voice. I would like to assure hon. Shakeel - because he is the only one who sounded like he had doubts and this is my opportunity to tell him - that never would I contemplate a non-constitutional legislation. Unknown to hon. Shakeel, this Bill would not have found its way here unless the Commission on the Implementation of the Constitution (CIC), through Mr. Charles Nyachae and the Attorney-General, Mr. Wako, had looked at it backwards, forwards and upside down and confirmed that it does not in any way violate the Constitution. Therefore, I would like to reassure him and all the others who have spoken on that, that we will put every effort during the Third Reading of the Bill and at the Committee Stage, to make adjustments to reflect the concerns they have expressed. For me, I cannot wait for an opportunity to see the Truth, Justice and Reconciliation Commission (TJRC) continue with its work to address issues raised about the massacres in Wagalla, Garissa and many others. Many people have spoken about the late J.M. Kariuki, the late Dr. Robert Ouko and the late Tom Mboya, among others. This is a new dawn and their deaths, in the hands of yet unidentified people, like that of Robert
Minister, would you like to start now or would you like to defer this Bill?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am in your hands. There are only four minutes left. I would rather start tomorrow, so that I can give this very important Bill the attention that it deserves, and also we can have more Members in the House.
Hon. Members, Order No. 9 is, therefore, deferred until tomorrow.
Hon. Members, on this note we adjourn the proceedings of the House until tomorrow, Thursday, August 11th, 2011 at 2.30 p.m.
The House rose at 6.26 p.m.