Hon. Speaker, Sir, I, Mithika Linturi, Member of Parliament for Igembe South and a citizen of the Republic of Kenya from Meru County do hereby petition for the removal of Sarah Jepkemboi Chumo Serem as the Chairperson of the Salaries and Remuneration Commission (SRC) and the removal of Daniel Ogutu, Sellestine Kiuluku, Serah Kinyua, Retired Brig. Samuel Ndururi, Isaiah Kubai, Jacqueline Mugo, Ann Elizabeth Owuor, Peter Oloo Aringo, Jason Namasake, Joseph Kinyua, Titus Ndambuki and Wanjuki Muchemi as members of the SRC on the following grounds:

1. serious violation of the Constitution;

2. serious violation of the law;

3. gross misconduct in the performance of their functions; and

4. serious incompetence in the performance of their duties. Hon. Speaker, Sir, if you allow me I would like to take a minute or two to tell this House, and the country, that presenting of this particular petition is based on the fact that the Members of this Parliament have a duty and are obliged by virtue of Article 3 of the Constitution to protect, uphold and defend the Constitution of Kenya by virtue of not only being Members of Parliament, but also being citizens of Kenya. In this petition, I have prepared a charge sheet of 18 counts on how the Salaries and Remuneration Commissioners have violated the Constitution. There is a further charge sheet of 12 counts on how the Serem-led Commission has violated other laws of this country. I know time is not on my side and bearing in mind what the Standing Orders provide for, I will be in a position to prove these charges when the relevant Committee that is supposed to look at this matter is constituted by this House. I now pray this particular House that, based on the charges prepared against this Commission, to find that there is need to have the whole Commission removed from office and, probably, have a fresh team appointed that will be able to understand the law and the Constitution and perform its duties based on the foundations of law.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Linturi, I have no authority to pick anybody. Hon. Midiwo may not get to the microphone as I can see. Maybe he wanted to---

I think it is important, looking at the provisions of Standing Order No.226, and from the foot thumping that I can hear--- It is an indication that, perhaps, there may be need to allow a few comments, observations or clarifications. I will, however, limit that to a maximum of 30 minutes. Hon. Midiwo had caught my eye even though he had been pointed out by hon. Linturi. I will, therefore, give him the first shot. Hon. Linturi, you may table your petition.

Thank you, hon. Speaker, Sir. This is a serious matter. It needs to be put to rest. Hon. Speaker, Sir, 90 per cent of the people, or more here are new Members of Parliament. Because of the actions of the Serem Commission, in the eyes of Kenyans these people are already thieves. It is important to note that only about a month ago we swore an oath to uphold the Constitution of this country. Yesterday, as Labour Day celebrations were going on I was driving into the gymnasium of Continental House and somebody by the name Mwangi, who had just attempted to disrupt the celebrations, was being pushed into the cells there. I just stopped to ask. I wanted to know why the media was barricading the police station. I was so abused by somebody from the streets. This person looked like somebody who should not even be walking up to a Member of Parliament. He called me a thief. I was not of the view that the Serem team should go home. However, I am more convinced that given the agony being caused to Members of Parliament, we must not defend them. This is because they will be done with Members of Parliament and then they will go to the rest of the workers of this country. This is a rogue Commission. Hon. Speaker, if you multiply 222 Members by Kshs851,000, and divide the result by 349 Members you will get Kshs541,400; even my seven-year old daughter can do that. It does not require somebody to earn Kshs1,000,000. Hon. Speaker, she is purporting to tell you, as a Member of Parliament, that you cannot be bought for a car, yet she goes around in GK vehicles. She does nothing. This is superfluous. I want the committee that is going to look at this Petition to do something that the Parliamentary Service Commission has not brought to the attention of Kenyans. In the Finance Act, 2012, Section 59 (d) (2) requires that the Commission brings anything they do here for approval. She never did that! She is a rogue! What must happen is that this Parliament must take its rightful position in defending the Constitution. You must defend the Constitution because none of these people has asked for a salary different from what hon. Members have earned for the last ten years .

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Duale, the floor is yours.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, I support this Petition. I want from the outset to say to the nation that hon. Linturi is both within the Constitution and the Standing Orders. The Standing Orders provide that a Member of this House can bring either public or a private petition. Two, what hon. Linturi is doing can be done to any other Commission. So, we have no ulterior motive against the SRC. Anybody or a commission that breaks the fundamental principles of the Constitution--- It is the business of this House to uphold the Constitution and correct wrongs. Article 127 of the Constitution that establishes the Parliamentary Service Commission (PSC), Subsection (6) gives power to the PSC to, among many other things, set, guide, give and decide on the welfare of Members of Parliament. Hon. Speaker, PSC is going, through its Vice-Chair, to table its Estimates as an independent institution. I am going to table the Estimates, on behalf of the Judiciary, because they are not here. I am also going to table the Estimates of the Executive. That shows the independence of this institution. Hon. Speaker, Sir, a Commission which is a creation of this House cannot purport--- I want Sarah Serem to listen to me and the country. We are not after our salaries. Hon. Linturi is raising a fundamental breach of the Constitution. I am sure the media will listen to me, and we are ready to go for a talk show and tell them how the SRC violated the separation of powers between Parliament, the Executive and the Judiciary. Hon. Speaker, Sarah Serem has not touched the salary of the Judiciary, another independent institution. When she was asked, she said that she was undertaking consultation with them. We are asking ourselves: Why did she not undertake consultation with Parliament? We have a Speaker who is the Chair of PSC. This country and the citizenry must come see the reality. On 4th March, 2013, Kenyans went to the polls and elected the 349 men and women into this House. If they are thieves, it is the Kenyan people who are thieves!

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

It is now the chance for hon. Keynan. We have 15 more minutes.

Thank you hon. Speaker, Sir. I want to take this opportunity, first of all, to thank hon. Mithika Linturi. There was a tendency by hon. Members of the past Parliament to collectively allow themselves to be lynched while remaining silent. The role of any Member of Parliament, in any civilized democracy, is to legislate, represent, oversee and engage in other roles of a Member of Parliament, like parliamentary diplomacy and others as enshrined in the constitutions of the particular countries.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, my argument on this particular issue is not about the salaries, but about the constitutionality of that particular gazette notice. These great men and women who have been elected by the people of Kenya, just as hon. A.B. Duale has said, are not here by accident. It is by choice. Democracy is very expensive. Any individual who is reluctant to embrace the principles of democracy does not believe in the rule of law or the Constitution.

In the Kenyan context, one of the reasons why the Kenyan people vigorously fought for the enactment of the new Constitution was to entrench the rights of every individual regardless of their status, religion or race. Hon. Members of Parliament, in addition to being the national leaders of Kenya, have individual and collective rights, and these must be defended by this House.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Very well. I think we may have to come to a closure. Hon. Angwenyi, take two minutes so that we may have one or two other hon. Members.

Thank you, hon. Speaker, Sir. Mine is a warning. I am warning this august House that unless we stand up and defend this institution--- If we let this institution be destroyed then Kenya will become a banana republic. If we do not defend and protect the Constitution of Kenya, will we have done our job? The Constitution of Kenya was approved by Kenyans after it had gone through this Parliament. It can only be amended through this Parliament. Hon. Speaker, Sir, these busy bodies who are lying idle in town--- We have never asked them how they get their funding. We have never asked them to tell Kenyans what programmes they undertake. If this House cedes its right to be independent, to represent the people of Kenya, to oversee other activities of the other arms of Government, then there will be no need to have a Parliament in this country. That Serem Commission is incompetent to the extreme. They are trying to undo what was done by eminent Kenyans. Who in that commission is of the calibre of retired Chief Justice Cockar? Who in that commission is of the caliber of the retired politician, Munyua Waiyaki? Who in that commission is of the calibre of the late Dennis Akumu, the Pan Africanist? Who in that commission is of the calibre of justice Akiwumi? I thought we drew from the report of those eminent Kenyans. In fact, the Act setting up these salaries commission states in Section 12 that they shall take into consideration any reports done by other commissions. It is written that “they shall” and not that “they may”. They have not done that. They are contradicting the law left, right and centre; for that purpose they should be removed, so that we can have competent people who can do evaluation of our work and that of other agencies of Government and set salaries; we accept that.

Yes, hon. Nyasuna.

Hon. (Ms) Nyasuna): Thank you, hon. Speaker, Sir. I rise to support hon. Mithika Linturi’s petition. Kenyans overwhelmingly voted for the new Constitution with the knowledge of the fact that we were going to have a more enlarged Parliament and even the devolution structures that

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

No more! Remember the Standing Orders say that observations, clarifications and comments should not take more than 30 minutes. I think we have heard enough and the rest will be prosecuted in the relevant departmental committee to which this petition now stands committed.

Next Order!

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

On a point of order, hon. Speaker, Sir. I remember that on Tuesday we had a long discussion in the House Business Committee on a matter to do with the composition of committees of this Parliament.

With the tabling of the Budget Estimates for this House, the National Government and the other independent arms of the Government, I have not heard anything or any Paper being laid before this House by the Chief Whips of the two different sides of the coalition with regard to the committees of this House. Committees of this House perform an integral component on how this Parliament is supposed to work. The more we stay, the more we delay this country. The more we stay, the more we also delay the Budget process. In the next six or ten days, we should be through with this exercise. I seek your guidance on this matter because it appears as if our Whips are ineffective, or if not, the Leader of the Minority Party and the Leader of the Majority Parliament are. We want to know this because we must move the country forward.

Thank you, hon. Speaker, Sir. Just to support what the hon. Member has said, we might be travelling in the direction that we have been blamed for; that we are not hard-working and that we are not adhering to our programmes. The Committee on Delegated Legislation should be formed today because it is part of that item that is bringing us problems.

Today, I travelled from Bomet to Nairobi by other means because my petrol got exhausted in Bomet. So, I would like to have that Committee established today so that tomorrow I can be paid and go home to meet some of my people. The Whips should explain to us why they have not tabled the list for the committees of this House so that we can begin our business.

Well, I recognize hon. Gideon Mungaro and then the Majority Party Whip.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, it is true that we met on Tuesday and we were supposed to finalise the list of the committees. However, we further consulted as a coalition and we have not agreed yet, especially on the composition of the Public Investments Committee and the Public Accounts Committee. That is between us and the other part of Jubilee. We should be able to table all the names of the committee members once we are through with that.

On a point of Order, hon. Speaker, Sir. What has messed this country is the character of insincerity amongst ourselves and the failure to admit that we are not in control of ourselves. I remember when we were in the meeting, the Leader of

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, hon. Speaker, Sir. It is good that this matter has found its way to the Floor of this House. It is also good that you indulged me a few minutes to explain to the Members and the country what is happening because this is a matter of national importance. The Budget Estimates have just been laid on the Table and they are supposed to be referred immediately to the Budget Committee because we are running short of time. That will enable the Budget Committee to start going out there and collect public views for purposes of public participation in budget-making.

First of all, the House Business Committee, which you chaired on Tuesday this week, directed that by 12.30 p.m. today we present the names of all the committee members to the Clerk of the National Assembly. On my part, as the Majority Party Whip, I have met that deadline. I can confirm that the names of those committee members are with the Clerk of the National Assembly. That is from this side.

I equally expected that the names would be on the Order Paper this afternoon. However, it is good that the House has been informed of what is happening now. It is only the Public Investments Committee and the Public Accounts Committee--- My colleagues on the other side said that they want to take the chairmanship of those committees in order to play the oversight role. Previously, those committees have been chaired by the Opposition. It is good that everybody gets to know that the Opposition chaired those committees not as a favour, but it was in accordance with the Standing Orders of that time. During the Eighth Parliament, the Standing Orders, which now stand repealed, stated very clearly that the Opposition was to chair the Public Investments Committee (PIC) and the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) and that the Government was to have a majority of not more than two. That is why the Opposition chaired the committees. During the Ninth and the Tenth Parliament, the Standing Orders, which are now also repealed, stated that the Opposition was to chair the PIC and the PAC and the Government would have a majority of one and that happened. The Standing Orders of the Eleventh Parliament, and this is a House of rules, were changed. On the composition of the PIC and PAC, the current Standing Orders state that the membership is drawn from the parties’ strength and the membership of those

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, we met as the House Business Committee. As the Members who have spoken before me have said, we had long deliberations, but I want to put the record straight. Those two committees, namely, the PIC and the PAC, are oversight committees. The Government cannot oversee itself and for the Opposition to be effective, they have to have the majority in those two committees. We made it very clear. First, it was the Budget Committee, the PIC and the PAC. But after we consulted the Speaker, in his wisdom, he told us: “For the Budget Committee, let us give it to Jubilee”, because it is their budget; it is the Government of the day. So, we conceded. We gave ground. Then we said that it is good for the Opposition to play the role of oversight. You cannot give us the chairmanship of those two with a minority. You will be a lame duck there. Some Members could see light in that, but there are those Members who took hard positions and it was very difficult. Then we agreed to break and consult as parties. Our position has not changed and it will not change. It will remain the same and it is not our fault.

Thank you, hon. Speaker, Sir.

Just a moment, hon. Duale! Members, I keep reminding you that when you see the Leader of Majority Party, the Leader of Minority Party, the Majority Whip, the Minority Whip and their deputies, be informed that there is some order, so that those of you who are out there ranking as Members, you will get your time, but allow the leadership to be recognized.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, I want to first confirm that we will reach an amicable solution as leaders of both coalitions. It is our business to offer leadership and we will offer leadership and solutions as fast as possible in consultation with the Speaker, so that the business of the House and the committees which are the nerve centre of the House will continue to function. However, I also want to point out that this is a House that has rules. What is happening in the PIC and PAC between the two coalitions, in my opinion, is just a gentleman’s agreement. It was on good will and it is not based on these Standing Orders. Those of us who were in the last Parliament, including the Deputy Leader of the Minority Party, must accept it. Hon. Katoo has said it very well that in the Eighth Parliament, the chair was from the Opposition and the majority of two was the Government. In the Ninth

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, this is a good debate because we are going to have to chart a new beginning as a country. Let me tell you why the drafters of these Standing Orders did not include that express provision which has existed for the last 15 years. This is the reason: The issue of separation of powers that my friend, hon. Linturi, referred to. This Parliament should have taken its rightful place to play the oversight role on the Executive. What is developing in the last three weeks that we have been sitting here is that the Jubilee side has brought this thing of Opposition. If you listened carefully to the Leader of the Majority Party, he has even said it here on HANSARD, “My Government”. So, the Executive is sitting in Parliament. Now that we are the Opposition, we must cross-check what the Government does. I detest the insinuation by the Majority Whip that they are doing us favour; they are not doing us a favour. For all I know, they could take their members and the chairmanship. Why would a Government which has

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

On a point of order, hon. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for hon. Jakoyo Midiwo to try to ignore the rules of the House and try to tell us what he thinks from his head about other things? Is he in order?

Let us do this: I want to encourage this debate, but let us also be guided by the Standing Orders and the Constitution.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, the Constitution, from back to back does not intend or insinuate that there shall be an Opposition party within this Parliament. That insinuation has gone on for three weeks and nobody---

Hon. Midiwo, let us not get carried away by mistakes people are making. Article 108 of the Constitution is clear on what there is in the House. There will be majority and minority. The others just ignore them as things which exist in people’s minds out of hangovers of the past.

Well said, hon. Speaker, Sir. I know I respect your brains. Hangovers of the past, it is! However, let me hurry up and conclude. Hon. Speaker, Sir, we sat in the House Business Committee for over three hours. We came close to agreeing. Let me say that there was no agreement. We said that we will consult because we run our coalition through consultation. We reached a scenario where our counterparts said that they will give us 13 slots and they take 14 slots. Why do you still want majority? There is no point of giving us the chairman while the Standing Orders say that reports of committees shall be approved by majority of members of the committee. If you deny us majority from the outset, our chairman shall never be able to generate a report.

On a point of order, hon. Speaker, Sir. I do not want my good friend, hon. Jakoyo, to mislead the House. I am sure there are Members of the Tenth Parliament who were Members of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) and the Public Investments Committee. The PAC is a unique committee of this House. In the Standing Orders, the minority is allowed to table its own report where they dissent. Hon. Midiwo is misleading the House. If the majority disagrees, one Member can file a dissent report. Hon. Speaker, Sir, this is a House of rules, precedents and practices. On this side, we have to put on the Table the procedures. The Procedure and House Rules Committee has been formed and given that you chair the committee, you could amend the Standing Orders.

On a point of information, hon. Speaker, Sir. I want to make it clear to this House that I was the Chairman of the Public Investments Committee in the last Parliament. Whenever we were making any report, it was a report of the Public Investments Committee. We were not a committee of either CORD or ODM. In most cases, you will find that Members of Parliament can form opinion based on facts presented before them during the taking of evidence. Party lines do not play any role during the taking of evidence and during the compilation of the report. Hon. Midiwo, please, do not mislead this House.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, I think we need to reason with one another. We want to plead with you; do not think we hate being in the Opposition. In fact, we love it. This is the mandate we have been given by Kenyans.

But let me tell you, we will not give you room to misbehave. The only way not to give you room is for us to have the necessary tools. This means that we must follow the law.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, are we in a market or in the National Assembly of Kenya?

Hon. Members, you must conduct yourselves with decorum. It does not show very well when everybody claims to be standing on points of order when they just want to advance some argument. Give hon. Midiwo his time. Let him make his point. I will give you your chance. As you notice, I want us to really exhaust this so that when we make the next move, we know where it is we are headed.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, I, therefore, want to plead with you and correct my friend, hon. Duale that you can issue a minority report in any committee. The issue here is: Why would the Government not want to be held accountable? If you are ready, be magnanimous. In fact, now that the Leader of the Majority Party says that he is ready, maybe, the leadership could retreat for two minutes and bring the names here so that we play our role. We owe it to Kenyans. However, now that there is this problem, Standing Order No.1 says that in all cases where matters are not expressly provided for by these Standing Orders or by other orders of the House---

On a point of order, hon. Speaker, Sir. Hon. Midiwo is a senior Member of this House. For him to invoke the Standing Order he has mentioned now, he is misleading the House. There is nowhere that what is before the House is not provided for. What is before the House is expressly provided for in the Standing Orders of the House. Is he in order to give the assumption that this is not provided for in the Standing Orders? We should use the time of this House usefully. I would like you to rule on that issue.

Hon. Cheptumo never even left the Senate. The point I was trying to plead with you to guide us through is Standing Order No.1 (2) which says--- Because what he is saying is not provided for. He says: “I am senior”. He is equally senior. He has been around. But if he reads the Standing Orders which this one took over from, that clause is still there. The one he is trying to refer to. Except, it further says that these two committees shall be chaired by the Opposition. There is no Opposition. But now that we are keeping these Committees--- This is fundamental to the implementation of the Constitution. I want to plead with you to use – if you have to pronounce yourself to this – Standing Order No.1 (2). It refers to the traditions and customs. Now that we have kept for self-preservation and for whatever other reasons, PAC and PIC in our Standing Orders as part of our committees, I want to plead with you that we must go the way the traditions and rules call for. You cannot escape from that. It is expressly provided for.

I thank you.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Please! Please! Do not claim to be standing on a point of order. If you just want to contribute, I will allow you time to contribute. Do not imagine that you can cheat this Chair! The hon. Mohamed.

On a point of information, hon. Speaker, Sir.

Sorry, again. This is the problem of--- I think we will do another induction course. We do not just rise to claim to inform. Inform who?

Hon. Speaker, Sir, there is---

The Member has already sat down. So, there is nobody to inform.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, he is very ignorant about how we should do business here. I have the Floor, hon. Speaker, Sir.

Resume your seat. Hon. Kajwang.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, I want to thank you for giving us an opportunity to debate this issue exhaustively. Many of my colleagues who are senior have spoken. Allow us also juniors to speak on this subject. If there is any important subject, this is the most important subject so far as we are concerned in this House. I have listened to Members who have said that we are wasting time, or this is an issue which they have discussed elsewhere and that we should move on. If there is anything that has brought me to this House as a Member of minority, this is the most important issue. That is because we come here as a vanguard or a watchman of the people. If, on the first day, I lose my opportunity to be the vanguard of the people, then I have no role to sit on this side of the Speaker.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, we have discussed issues of rules, traditions and practices. But this House proceeds, first and foremost, on the Constitution. The Constitution says: “This Constitution is the supreme law of the Republic and binds all persons and all State organs at both levels of Government.” In Subsection 4 it says: “Any law, including customary law, that is inconsistence with this Constitution, is void to the extent of the its inconsistency and any act or omission in contravention of this Constitution is invalid. So, even though I appreciate that we have rules of this House; even though I appreciate that there are statutes and traditions, I start from the constitutional principles that this House must follow. The national values that hon. Speaker is so aware because you were in the Committee at Bomas that drafted the national values--- One of them is good governance, integrity, transparency and accountability. Accountability cannot be accountability – and colleagues would want to be--- Okay. Accountability cannot be accountability if the minority is unable to give oversight role to the Government. Even if the Standing Orders say something to the contrary; even if the Standing Orders say that we will not have the

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

On a point of order, hon. Speaker, Sir. It is fundamental. Yes, the newcomers can speak. But they cannot mis-inform and violate the same Constitution. This debate is all about the Standing Orders. That is why last week, and the nation was here, we formed the Procedure and House Rules Committee. Any Member who sees that these Standing Orders violate the Constitution; that the Standing Orders are not in tandem with the HBC, there are procedures and processes to be followed. I think Standing Order No.62 says that. You can write to the Chair of the Procedure and House Rules Committee. With the 50 Members, a report would be brought to the House. The House will debate it and, certainly, it will be amended. My good friend, hon. Kajwang, you have read the substance and the framework of the Constitution. They will not tell us anything. If you want to amend these Standing Orders, you can do so.

Thank you, hon. Speaker, Sir.

On a point of order, hon. Speaker, Sir. This book is part of the Constitution. This document is not supreme to the Constitution. It is very important that we are cognizant of the fact that laymen and women who are not here are watching. So, this House cannot be mis-informed. That is the fact. If it is inconsistent, the Constitution rules! That is very, very important to us as we sit here Members. Please, you owe it to Kenyans.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, let me read the Constitution for them!

Order! Just a minute, hon. Members, I have deliberately allowed as many of you as possible to contribute. I want you to contribute to the point of order raised by hon. Mithika Linturi as to the fact that we do not have names of Members to into committees, both departmental and select. Even as we debate that, let me just tell you in advance. You also look at Standing Order No.233. Remember that on Tuesday, in this very House, we were laying the Division of Revenue Bill which stood committed to the relevant departmental committee and the House has only ten days to debate and discuss that Bill; after which it shall stand committed to the Senate. So, even as we grandstand on these things, we must also bear in mind that we have responsibility to offer leadership in the country in this matter.

So, it is not enough that we want to say the way this is going to be oversight or it is not going to be what! So, please, even as we debate this, you have just tabled Estimates here. Contrary to what the Majority Whip said, those Estimates will not be referred to the Budget and Appropriations Committee. They will be referred to the relevant departmental committees, who will have 21 days, beginning today, to scrutinize them in accordance with their mandates. So, even as we discuss this, remember there is that other function that you as Members of Parliament sitting in committees are expected to do within the rules. With regard to the point of order raised by hon. Linturi, please let us stick to it. I appreciate what is in the Constitution and the Standing Orders but let us make our contributions without emotions. We shall be able to look for the best way to enable the

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, as I wind up, I just want to call up on you on this very issue; being one that touches on fundamental precepts of the Constitution, I beseech you to retire and make a considered decision on this that makes this an opportunity as Members sitting on this side of the Speaker to know exactly how we are supposed to play our roles to oversight the Government and also to give the majority the correct expectation on how they are supposed to support that Government that they seek to be supporting.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, in terms of practical solutions, allow the Whips and the Leaders – the four of them to caucus on this even this very hour so that they can come back and be able to get back to us with a consensus because I think the consensus lies with whether the Government of the day is able to be oversighted by the Opposition.

Just a minute hon. T.J. Kajwang. I thought hon. Midiwo had said that there is no Government here. It is a majority and minority. You should leave this hangover.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, I stand to be corrected. I think I am also drunk with the same hangover.

Hon. Chepkonga.

Thank you, hon. Speaker, Sir. It is unfortunate that some of us are just hearing some things as rumours. That is because we were not part and parcel of that committee. We wish that the report, in whatever format, would be presented to this House so that we can discuss this matter in a more informed way.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, however, that notwithstanding, we have gathered a little bit of information to make us contribute although in a small way. A lot of discussions have revolved around suggestions that need to be made to amend the Standing Orders. The Constitution - as my learned friend, hon. T. J. Kajwang, has clearly stated - but unfortunately he never quoted the relevant provision of the Constitution - Article 3(1) of the Constitution states very clearly that: “Every person has an obligation to respect, uphold and defend this Constitution.”

Hon. Speaker, Sir, Article 124(1) of the Constitution states very clearly that: “Each House of Parliament may establish committees, and shall make Standing Orders for the orderly conduct of its proceedings, including the proceedings of its committees.” This august House has made rules pursuant to Article 124(1) of this Constitution. There are very many good suggestions that are being made here but they are not in the Standing Orders. It is incumbent upon whoever seeks to put his view that he thinks is ideal in accordance with their own coalition to bring it to this House in accordance with Standing Order No.262.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, I plead through you to rule that most of these suggestions that are being made are errant, of no purpose, frivolous, arbitrary and some would be classified as impunity against the law.

On a point of order, Hon. Speaker, Sir. There is no suggestion by any hon. Member so far as the Standing Orders have to be amended. I sympathise with all my colleagues from the legal profession who have spoken. I know most of them are

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Are you on a point of order or you want to contribute to the debate?

I am on a point of order, hon. Speaker, Sir.

What is out of order? I know you have been in court most recently but what is out of order now?

Hon. Speaker, Sir, he is curtailing my finishing where I wanted to--- The hon. Member is misleading the House that there is only one rule of interpreting a legal instrument like this. You know we have 13 of them. We are going by the literal rule which the Standing Order provide, but what we are asking from this side is: What is the intention of the law in saying that the role of oversight in those committees should be (Inaudible)

Sit down now! You will be given an opportunity to prosecute that. Proceed, hon. Chepkonga.

Thank you, hon. Speaker, Sir, for saving me from my learned junior colleague. As a matter of practical way of moving forward, the Jubilee Coalition has provided its list. We do not know what he is holding. We have not seen any policemen who are protecting the list from being delivered to us here for purposes of approval. There is no Standing Order here that states that if there any particular persons who are contained in a list that does not contain some other particular persons, it should not be brought to this House. In fact, hon. Midiwo who claims to be a long standing Member of this House has clearly admitted and consented that there is no Opposition or Government. We are all Members of Parliament of the National Assembly. Whoever finds his name in the PSC is able to detect anyone who has misused Government funds. If I am put there, I will be the first one to ensure that, that person is put in jail although I may not be the judge. But I will ensure that they appear before the judge.

Thank you, hon. Speaker.

It is good to balance so that we can hear both sides. That is the tradition also. From time to time, we may bend it. The hon. Member, hon. Kaluma, who claims to be frequent in court.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, I am grateful for the honour. In court, we had a phrase of a very great judge who said that: “If old lawyers had the benefit of experience, the new ones have the benefit of late learning.” As I speak now, let me confirm that hon. Chepkonga has been my client for the past five years. He does not know how to do these things.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, it is unfortunate that my learned colleague makes attempts of claims that he has represented me when he knows I am an able lawyer. I would not give instructions to him. I have never instructed him in the first instance but he claims that I have instructed him by proxy. But I have not.

Hon. Kaluma, we do not want to get into that. Just prosecute the point you are making.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, for confidentiality in law, I will not disclose it. The problem we have in the House in terms of dealing with PIC and PAC is how we consider the roles of those two committees and for us on the side of minority, for all intents and purposes, we will be dealing with the major oversight of what was equivalent of the Opposition. We believe that when we are interpreting any statutory instrument, and this is not the only one, I mentioned that by benefit of late learning, there are up to 13 rules of interpreting every legal instrument you find. The Standing Order says this and so it goes that way. There is a rule of interpretation of legal instrument called “the mischief rule”. In the context of that mischief rule, I wanted to inform the House that we need to question what the intention of any good governance system was in always insisting these two oversight Committees ought to be on the side that should be the equivalent of the Opposition. I am saying that there is reason as to why we should not only chair on the side of Minority, but we should also have the majority. In fact, from my point and understanding the intention I will prefer a situation where the Majority side even chairs these Committees. We have all these Committees and they can chair them if their greed will be sustained that way. However, there are Committees which by tint of their functions ought to be led in majority by the Minority. I was thinking and suggesting that we go ejusdem generis if not by mischief rule in interpreting this provision.

Thank you, hon. Speaker, Sir. I am grateful for this opportunity but my learned junior, hon. Kaluma, should know that in court, we do not practice Standing Orders but we practice the law. But most importantly, what I want to be very clear is that there is a Minority and there is a Majority by law. So, the Leader of the Majority Party cannot negotiate the majority into minority. It is not possible. I am saying this because all of us, as hon. Members of Parliament, play an oversight role. That is very important. So, the gentlemen and ladies from the Minority should not purport to have it as a preserve for their side.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, I understand that hon. Jakoyo Midiwo was in the Ninth Parliament and there was the Opposition and the Government at that time. I was a Member of the Opposition with you, hon. Speaker, Sir. In the Tenth Parliament, there was only one Opposition Member while the rest were coalition partners. In the Eleventh Parliament, there is only the Majority and the Minority. What we are supposed to do, and what you should rule is that for these Committee that are being formed today, if the Leader of the Majority Party will negotiate to give out the Chairmanship, it can be proper, but not negotiating Majority out of itself.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

On a point of information, hon. Speaker, Sir.

On a point of order, hon. Speaker, Sir.

Who is out of order? Just relax.

I was informing---

There is nobody to inform! You cannot just inform generally.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, but unfortunately, he sat down before I informed him.

So, you are now time barred. Remember it is not one party which has a monopoly. So, we must also look at the composition of both sides. I want to give this chance to the Secretary-General - I am told - of Ford(K). Yes, the hon. (Dr.) Eseli.

Thank you, hon. Speaker, Sir. If you recall, I sort of set off the issue of these Committees the other time we sat. I did that because I foresaw that it was going to cause a bit of friction and I hope that we would have nipped that friction before we got to it.

These two Committees have generally been causing a bit of a problem in this House from the Seventh Parliament and the other Parliaments that have been there before. There are times when the Standing Orders have clearly said that the ruling party will have the majority and it will be chaired by the Opposition and so on. So, the two Committees have, historically, been a problem in this House. So, this is not something new. I think that not being something new, it gives this House a chance to deal with the matter once and for all.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, as I support what hon. Cheboi has said that perhaps we leave out those two Committees and bring the other Committees so that we can start work, I would also like to tell the Majority party that sometimes it might appear that you are losing when you are actually gaining. This is in the sense that in this House, you have the majority. So, whatever Report those Committees will bring will be subject to the Members of this House to pass. So, it should not be of any worry to the Majority Party. As the saying goes “sometimes magnanimity is a strength and not a weakness”. I would like to plead with the Leader of the Majority Party that we have heard very good points supporting the Standing Orders as they are written, but I would like to say that, perhaps, those who wrote them were in a dilemma not knowing how they were going to handle the House once the new Constitution set in. Otherwise, if they were not in that dilemma,

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Except, hon. (Dr.) Eseli, even though you say that the drafters of these rules might have had--- However, the rules show that they were passed by the Tenth Parliament on 9th January. To the best of my recollection, hon. (Dr.) Eseli, you were a Member.

Thank you, hon. Speaker, Sir. I want to echo what h(Dr.) Eseli has said. I agree that these Standing Orders were passed on 9th January when most Members were more interested in re-election than legislation. However, the main issue here is that people were making Standing Orders assuming that they will be sitting on the Chair that you are sitting.

That is the genesis of the problem with the entire Standing Orders. We did not even want to oppose those Standing Orders because those who wanted the provisions that are there were the Majority then and there was tyranny of numbers and tyranny of sitting on the Chair you are sitting right now. So, having experienced what we went through to get to these Standing Orders, first and foremost, I want it to go on record that they were done in hiding. These Standing Orders were only brought at the late hour so that they could not be scrutinized properly. As we can see now, there are items in those Standing Orders that during the weekend meeting that the women Members went to, could clearly see the weapons that the Leaders of the Majority and Whips have on errant Members which were actually dictatorial. I think Members of Procedure and Rules Committee should look at these Standing Orders afresh. Look at them whether you are on the Government side or on the Opposition side.

On the issue of Public Investments Committee and the Public Accounts Committee, I would like to say that there is no Opposition and there is no Government because the ruling party might have been in the Minority. What we should have in these Standing Orders, is that if the Minority or the Majority are not the ruling Executive, then the Chair should go the Opposition - to that ruling Executive. That makes sense. To tell us that we cede and you want to have a meeting to negotiate numbers is going beyond the rules. For example, what if this Opposition was made up of 30 Members of this House

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

No, no! Members, I think this is bad manners. When a Member is still speaking, you know the rules say that the rest of you should be seated. Now I see so many of you on your feet. In keeping with traditions and practices, I had picked this side. Now, I will go to a Member of a different party of the coalition.

Thank you, hon. Speaker, Sir. I have listened keenly to the debate on Committees. I want to remind all of us that we can debate for a long time. If these four, five, six gentlemen and ladies met and disagreed and brought this matter to the House, we cannot do justice to the House by pretending that we are going to deliberate on this matter and come to any conclusion.

I request that we send these four, five, six gentlemen from the majority and the minority, back to wherever they came from and order them not to come back to this House without having constituted those Committees. We can discuss for as long as we want, but this House cannot turn itself into a Committee selection team, because that is not possible. Lastly, I want to beseech the majority. They are very magnanimous in giving in three Members of what was rightly their share to the minority team. In deliberating, a little more magnanimity will not do any harm in making sure that we have such consensus and that this House can continue. I would have a problem with any attempt to start off with all the other Committees and leave out the two very important oversight Committees. That is what Kenyans are looking at and that is what they would like to see in terms of their work. So, let us not agree to get Committees in piecemeal. We should rather wait until these four, five, six gentlemen and ladies bring us the complete list of the Committees. If not, we should just decide that they have basically sabotaged the House because it cannot continue without the Committees. That is what we should do. Hon. Speaker you can use your fist to make sure that, that happens.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, arguments presented here that are not based on the law, the Standing Orders or any other regulation will not help us. I rise to particularly state the position that the direction that we are taking by communicating a position that by virtue of one being on one side of the House, and I know this has been communicated even from the Chair, you are part of that regime. The position that we are taking to brand the majority party in the House as part of the system

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

On a point of order, hon. Speaker, Sir. I rise under Standing Order No.172. The Member for Mukurwe-ini is saying that the Whips should move ahead and constitute the Committees whereas Standing Orders No.172 states that the Committee on Selection will among other things, nominate Members to serve in Committees save for the membership of the House Business Committee and the Committee on Appointments. I request your guidance on this because I believe that what we are discussing here is not in line with the Standing Orders. The Standing Orders state that the Selection Committee should be doing the business we are doing here.

A few weeks ago, I requested your guidance on the Selection Committee and how it will go about the business of constituting the Committees. The Standing Orders have not given direction on how the Selection Committee should do that. As hon. Midiwo has noted, if you go to Standing Order No.1(2), it states that:- “(2) The decisions made in paragraph (1) shall be based on the Constitution of Kenya, statute law and the usages, forms, precedents, customs, procedures and traditions of the Parliament of Kenya and other jurisdictions to the extent that these are applicable to Kenya”.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, given the fact that the Selection Committee is a new Committee of this House, it does not have a formula of constituting PIC, PAC and the other Committees, in your wisdom, I request that you give guidance on how the Selection Committee should do this. Once you give that guidance, we will not have this locking of horns in this House. Standing Order No.1 gives direction that you should give guidance based on the Constitution. The National Assembly, based on the supreme law of this land, namely, the Constitution, represents the people from the constituencies and special interests. I humbly request for your guidance on a formula that will be used. It does not matter whether the Chief Whip or the Leader of the Majority Party have represented the

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Enough! Enough! You stood on a point of order and you used it as an excuse to make an address, perhaps, aimed at some other quarters not necessarily the House. I am sure we have heard more than what we needed to hear. So, I will start with Article 124 which was referred to by hon. Chepkonga. That Article is the anchor of the Standing Orders. It is very important that we begin there. Forget about what Article 1 is saying about national values. Yes, those national values will be there all over. They inform everything that we do. They are just general principles. Beyond the national values, the same Constitution has gone on in Article 124 to state how the Houses will form Committees and Standing Orders. Hon. Chepkonga referred the House to that. In fact, I am happy that he did so because I was going to refer all of us to that Standing Order. “Each House of Parliament may establish Committees and shall make Standing Orders for the orderly conduct of its proceedings including the proceedings of its Committees. Parliament may establish joint Committees consisting of Members of both Houses and may jointly regulate the procedures of those Committees. The proceedings of either House are not invalid just because of a vacancy in the membership”. I took the liberty to reproduce this so that even as you form those Committees, you know that even if there are vacancies, the proceedings of those Committees will not be on the mere basis that there was a vacancy. There is a presence or participation of any person not entitled to be present at/or to participate in the proceedings of the House. Of course, the other bit is about appointment and Article 125 gives the powers of both the House and the Committees to summon witnesses. Having said that, using the authority confirmed on itself, the Tenth Parliament went and made Standing Orders for the orderly conduct of its business. Where do you find those Standing Orders? In this green book which all of us have. It is important that we begin to appreciate this. Hon. Kinoti Gatobu is finding concurrence with what was raised by hon. Jakoyo Midiwo who referred the Chair to Standing Order No.1. But I want us to take this slowly so that we must, therefore, know and put to rest what this Standing Order No.1 requires. I want to read Standing Order No. 1(1) verbatim. “In all cases where matters are not expressly provided for by these Standing Orders or by other orders of the House, any procedural question shall be decided by the Speaker.” I repeat, “any procedural.” Therefore, Standing Order No. 1(1) relates to any procedural matters. In Standing Order No.1 (2), I want you to see how misplaced the argument is. It is stated thus: “The decisions made in paragraph one shall be based on the Constitution of Kenya.” The decision that the Speaker will make on a procedural matter which is not expressly provided for will be guided by the Constitution of Kenya, statute law and usages, forms, precedence, customs, procedures and traditions of Parliament of Kenya and other jurisdictions to the extent that those are applicable to Kenya. So, the application of Standing Order No.1 (1) is only with regard to procedural matters that are not expressly provided for in these Standing Orders. So, please, stop

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

On a point of order, hon. Speaker. I am rising on a point of order on a different matter, but slightly related.

Hon. Speaker, I would urge that, based on Standing Order 264, that you find the Standing Orders that we have been referring to as illegal and, therefore, we return to the old Standing Orders. If you read Standing Order 264, it states:-

“At least once in every term of Parliament, not later than six months to the end of the term, the Procedure and House Rules Committee shall review the Standing Orders and make a report to the House recommending the Standing Orders, if any, to be amended.” Hon. Speaker, Sir, these Standing Orders were adopted on 9th January, 2013. This did not meet the six months requirement before the end of the term of Parliament. Hon. Speaker, we are all aware that the 10th Parliament---

Hon. Ng’ongo, let me cut you short. Hon. Ng’ongo, you are holding the Standing Orders adopted by this House on 9th of January, 2013. Therefore, your reference to Standing Order 264 would be, if you are applying them to this Parliament now. You should be referring me to the Standing Orders which were repealed. That is because they cannot apply to these.

Hon. Speaker, actually this was uplifted from the old Standing Orders. If given time, I would--- This is a very serious matter! The 10th Parliament violated the law and we need to put a stop to this. Actually, no wonder they were brought when many of us were already preparing to go for the campaigns. So, these standing Orders, even though we have used them, are illegal and they should be declared as such. We revert back to the old Standing Orders. It is very clear. This particular provision was uplifted from the old Standing Orders. It is supposed to be six months before the term of Parliament comes to an end.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Ng’ongo, I think you have been one of the greatest proponents of these Standing Orders, the contents of it, at least, and substance. Therefore, you are telling the House that, actually, you have been making illegal references. I will look with disfavour your---

Which Standing Order is that?

Hon. Ng’ongo is referring to Standing Order 264 - Periodic Review of Standing Orders. It states as follows:- “At least once in every term of Parliament, not later than six months to the end of the term, the Procedure and House Rules Committee shall review the Standing Orders and make a report to the House recommending the Standing Orders, if any, to be amended.” Hon. Ng’ongo, with regard to these Standing Orders - if six months to the end of the term of this Parliament I do not bring any proposals for amendments then, of course you carry on with these ones. But remember, in these same Standing Orders, what does the last one, Standing Order 267 say? “The Standing Orders adopted by the National Assembly on Tenth December, 2008, during the Second Session of Parliament, are hereby revoked.” So, we are now bound by these Standing Orders. If six months to the end of this term we do not bring---

They were revoked!

Yes. In fact, they were revoked. Those ones were revoked and we are now operating on these ones. In fact, you were sworn-in on the procedure adopted on these Standing Orders. So, they were revoked by you hon. Ng’ongo and others; by my good friend the hon. Jakoyo Midiwo, the hon. Duale and others. The hon. Dalmas Otieno was also there. So, there are so many of you who could be guilt on this. I think, in the interest of making progress, let us not go that route. I rule that this reference to Standing Order 264 is really with regard to review of these Standing Orders, not the past ones. Thank you. Next Order!

Hon. Speaker, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:- THAT, aware that over 600 pieces of ivory worth Kshs100 million were intercepted at the Port of Mombasa in March 2013 headed for Indonesia; concerned that 1,000 elephants have died in a span of three years; further aware that the Government declared poaching in the country as a national disaster; noting that a pound of ivory can now fetch more than US$1,000 in Beijing and, as a result, tens of thousands of elephants are slaughtered across Africa; also aware that the Far East is a market hub for that poached ivory, China in particular; further concerned that 211

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. John Waluke, next time, you better look at the Order Paper. Do not allow the hon. Member whose Motion appears after yours to rise before you.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:- THAT, aware that over 90 per cent of the raw materials for the agro-based parastatals such as Nyayo Tea Zones, sugar factories and cotton factories come from rural farmers residing in the counties; noting that the farmers produce all the in-puts, but do not receive any benefits from their activities; deeply concerned that the county governments are likely to face enormous financial challenges due to the limited sources of revenue; this House urges the Government to write off all liabilities of those parastatals and hand over the management of the same to the county governments to form part of income-generating activities for the respective county governments.

Very well. Next Motion by Mustafa Idd.

Hon. Speaker, Sir. I beg to give notice of the following Motion:-

THA,T aware that according to the statistics relayed by the National Council for Population and Development (NCPD) in Policy Brief No.25 of June 2012, Kenya’s population and that of all other sub- Saharan African countries is rapidly aging and the population of persons aged 60 years and above has increased steadily from 1 million in 1989 to 1.9 million by 2009 and is projected to reach about 3 million people by the year 2030; concerned that there is an increase in the number of neglected and/or abandoned elderly members of the society as a result of financial inability of their immediate kin, or lack of capacity to handle the health conditions of such senior citizens; noting that despite the legislation enacted to cater for the elderly, little further comprehensive action to enhance their well-being and specifically the health of older Kenyans has ensued, this House urges the Government to establish a free nursing unit for the aged in every hospital in all the counties.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker, Sir.

Very well. Next Order!

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, pursuant to Standing Order No.44(1), on behalf of the House Business Committee (HBC), I rise to give the following Statement regarding the business to appear before the House next week.

The HBC has scheduled for debate the Motion by hon. Abdulaziz Farah, Member of Parliament for Mandera East, urging the Government to urgently establish a Livestock Insurance Fund to cushion livestock farmers in all ASAL areas against loss occasioned by drought. Also to be considered for debate includes Motions by:-

(a) The Member of Parliament for Kirinyaga Central, hon. Joseph Gitari, urging the Government to consider upgrading, at least, one hospital in every county and supply equipment to handle both chemotherapy and dialysis treatment procedures for cancer patients.

(b) The Member of Parliament for Kilifi South, hon. Mustafa Idd, urging the Government to establish free nursing units for the aged in every hospital in all counties in Kenya.

(c) The Member of Parliament for Sirisia, the hon. John Waluke, urging for handover of agro-based parastatals to respective counties in the Republic of Kenya.

(d) The Member of Parliament for North Horr, Hon. Francis Chachu Ganya, urging for the tightening of measures on ammunitions so as to curb poaching in the country.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, the Motions that I have just read have been balloted for by the HBC and notices of the same are expected to be moved in the course of today’s sitting.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, on Bills, the Division of Revenue Bill, 2013 was read the First Time on Tuesday and is awaiting deliberations upon the formation of the Budget and Appropriations Committee.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, finally, the HBC will meet on Tuesday 7th May 2013 at the rise of the House to consider business for the rest of the week. I now wish to lay the Statement on the Table of the House.

Thank you.

Very well. Hon. Members, I need to draw your attention to the fact that on Tuesday, I gave permission to hon. Wafula Wamunyinyi to move a Motion for Adjournment of the House on a matter of national importance. Perhaps, it was not his fault that, that matter was not prosecuted. I think I would want to say that we give him a chance to give notice again and see whether he still has the requisite support.

Hon. Wamunyinyi.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Do you still have the requisite support? I see 20 hon. Members. Now, I can see you have the requisite support. Hon. Members, then the House will debate this issue today starting at 5.30 p.m.

Next Order.

Who was on the Floor? Ms. Nyasuna, I am told you have eight more minutes.

Hon. Speaker, Sir, I had completed my submission on the Motion.

All right. Then any other hon. Member may contribute. Yes, Hon.Nyikal.

Thank you, hon. Speaker, Sir, for giving me time to contribute on this Motion. I wish to state that actually, what this Motion entails is actually a technical matter. Whereas I think most of us have a lot of sympathy for people who may not afford healthcare, the request that we have a reduction of a penalty or the surcharge is really not to punish the people who have failed to pay. Basically, this is based on the very principle of medical insurance, or any other insurance where you insure a large number of people and only a few of them will be sick. You will have enough funds to treat those who get sick. If you get into a situation where all the people you enroll in insurance get sick, that insurance will fail; it will not work. I happen to know that the penalty is basically to stop members from defaulting. If you allow members to

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, hon. Speaker, Sir. I rise to oppose this Motion. I am grateful that my friend, Dr. Nyikal, with whom I have had the opportunity to sit on the NHIF Board, has made certain clarifications that require additions.

The Motion makes reference to defaulters. It is important that we all understand who the defaulters are under the NHIF Act. The remittances made to the Fund are derived from the earnings of employees employed by employers. The provisions of the law require that the employers, after making the deductions from the employees’ earnings, must make remittance to the Fund within a particular period. It is important to note, and this comes from my listening to contributions that were made on Tuesday to the effect that the surcharge of 500 per cent on defaulters is hurting businesses.

I would like to clarify that, that money which is remitted by the employers is not part of the business run by the employer. That money is deducted from the employees of the employer and remitted to the Fund within a required period. If an employer defaults in making the remittances, that money which does not belong to his business is

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I could not agree with the previous speaker more. This penalty is supposed to be a deterrent particularly to the employers. Many employers take low interest rates as a non-deterrence because if this window of defaulting is left to the employers, most of the employers would prefer not to borrow money from banks but rather use this money to trade. Because of this, the percentage of deterrence was made very high. Of course, it is too high. The 500 per cent is a bit unreasonable but to put it at 25 per cent, which is the rate at which most banks in the country lend money, will encourage people without any security. That is because when you go to the bank to borrow money, you have to provide some security. However, that is easy money which you just deduct from your employees you retain it and then use it to trade. If we reduce the 500 per cent to 25 per cent, we will encourage employers to continue retaining this money for their own business without going to the credit institutions which are legally mandated to provide credit services.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, my considered opinion on this issue is that this matter is not timely. That is because as we consider the introduction of a comprehensive insurance scheme for all Kenyans, we should not kill the existing NHIF.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I oppose the Motion.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I rise to oppose the Motion. NHIF is the only insurance Fund that is available in this country to the low income earners in our nation. If we were to slap a 500 per cent penalty, we would be discouraging those employers who have for some time been using money from the contributors to do their own business instead of forwarding the money to NHIF so that it can provide medical care to our people.

If you look at the contributions to this Fund, particularly from individual contributors, they are very few, far and wide. Most employers in this country rely on that Fund. Those who can afford rely on medical insurance schemes, which are the preserve of a few. I also wish to point out that last week we had a Motion on emergency health treatment that is supposed to be provided by hospitals without having to ask for deposits.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity. I rise to support the Motion by hon. Joseph Gitari. The NHIF defaulters continue to be surcharged a penalty of 500 per cent of the outstanding amount.

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Order! I have not given you that opportunity, but go ahead anyway.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Motion is not as read by the Member. It is important, so that we do not run the risk of misleading the Members, that the Member reads the Motion in its entirety.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the Motion that the NHIF defaulters should not continue to be surcharged a penalty of 500 per cent of the outstanding amount.

Members, for purposes of even other Members, you really do not need to go through the Motion again. You simply contribute. So, go ahead and contribute. That will save us a lot of time.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the penalty of 500 per cent is rather punitive. It is not only punitive, but also unaffordable by some employers. You may find that the employer is only supposed to pay Kshs20,000 and just by a mere default or by a delay in paying the payment in time, he is penalized five times. That works out to be Kshs100,000. So, the employer will not be able to pay the penalties because they are very punitive.

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Member to continually inform this House that employers are required to pay to the NHIF whereas the position in the law is that it is only the employees who contribute to the Fund? The employer does not pay any money. The only responsibility that the employer has is to deduct from the earnings of the employees and remit those deductions to the Fund. The employers do not pay to the Fund. So, is it in order for the Member to mislead the House that employers pay any money to the Fund?

He will respond to that; but also for guidance, whenever your colleague is on a point of order, you sit down. Proceed.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I understand very well that the money is deducted from the employees and it is remitted by the employers. My point is that an employer may delay in remitting the deductions by a day and by the time he goes to pay, he is penalized for not paying on the due date. Therefore, the penalty is not only imposed on defaulting but also on the time when the remittance is made. Sometimes it may be because the date is falling on a weekend or there might be a reason, but you end up paying Kshs100,000 as a penalty because of failing to remit the money within a particular day. I feel that the 500 per cent penalty is high and should be reduced to 25 per cent, so that in case an employer or a contributor is unable to pay, then the 25 per cent is not very punitive. The 500 per cent penalty is also a window for corruption. It

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion. By experience is that the common man, who is supposed to make contributions, especially after the scheme was opened to individual members, once he defaults, instead of paying this 500 per cent, he would rather stay without insurance and let the cover lapse. Once the policy lapses, they apply afresh. That is exactly what happens. As the previous Member has stated, a good number of the officers of the Fund will negotiate with a defaulter and will attempt to backdate the date of the payment and in the process they will receive some payment. I am not aware of any other contract that has a as high a penalty rate as this one. Even if you look criminal offences, you will not get 500 per cent fines. This is exorbitant. It is not based on any reasonable hypothesis, or analysis, and it should come down to the 25 per cent that has been proposed, which is reasonable. I support the Motion.

Before I give a chance to the next Member, for the new Members, it will be very important that you introduce yourself and you probably declare if you are making your maiden speech, so that the Chair will accordingly take care of your interest. Maiden speeches have a specific way of being handled.

On a point of information, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Information to whom, and does he require it?

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the hon. Member to mislead this House that it is only employers who remit this money to the fund whereas individual members, including very poor people, are part of

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Nyikal, I noticed that you crossed the Floor. I would appreciate if you went to the Bar and bowed as is the norm. I understand you are a new Member of Parliament, but we should be able to stick to the rules. Hon. Nyikal, proceed to the Bar.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. What is out of order is that the hon. Member for Kipipiri is misleading this House by suggesting that those who make contributions to the NHIF on voluntary basis are compelled by the law to make those contributions and, therefore, if they do not make those contributions they are subject to these penalties. I want to state here clearly that there are two types of contributors. We have employees, whose remittances are made by their employers and voluntary contributors, who voluntarily join the Fund; they are mainly found in the informal economy. When they do not make the remittances as they promise to do, they do not face any penalties under the Act. The hon. Member for Kipipiri is, therefore, not in order to continually mislead this House by stating that the penalty also applies to the voluntary members of the fund. It does not. This is mainly on employers.

To the best of my knowledge he has just contributed once. So, I do not think it is “continually” as you want to allege. I believe he has got your point though.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am Kirwa Stephen Bitok. I am the Member for Mosop and this is my maiden speech. I would like to contribute to this Motion on NHIF. What is important is a national insurance that covers most of Kenyans, both employed and unemployed. With regard to the penalty, it is high and it should be reviewed downwards. We need to encourage as many employers as possible to come into this net, so that as many Kenyans as possible are enrolled in this insurance. There are individual contributors and they too need to be encouraged to contribute voluntarily. We should have ways of managing the National Hospital Insurance Fund (NHIF), so that rather than being punitive and encouraging

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

I am quite inclined to give chances to those Members who have not made their maiden speeches. You realize this is the fourth week and they have not spoken. So, I will be looking out for them. You do not have to put your hands up. I will be very deliberate on that. Hon. Member from Muhoroni, it is your turn.

Thank you very much, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I am sorry it is not my maiden speech. I have spoken before. Contributing to the same Motion, I want to oppose it. I think the drafter did not mean well. In this country, we are fighting a big virus called impunity. I will be moved by the explanation given by my friend, the Member of Parliament for Kabete, who has had the benefit of representing the workers---

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. You have heard the hon. Member from Muhoroni say that the drafter of this Motion was trying to bring impunity. Can he substantiate?

That is obvious. There is no point. Endelea.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is in the records of this House that a Member is not expected to substantiate the obvious.

Member for Muhoroni, I think the hon. Member for Kirinyaga Central has raised an issue. We do not need to use those kind of terms. I mean, you can as well debate without having to bring in those other sideshows. proceed.

Thank you. I am moved by the fact that my friend had the benefit to sit on the Board of NHIF for a long time. I mean the Member of Parliament for Kabete. He has clarified that there two categories of contributors of NHIF. We have the voluntary members and employees, who have statutory deductions taken from their salaries by their “fat cat” employers. After deducting---

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Yes! What is your point of order? Really, it has to be a point of order. That is because I will not expect you to use a point of order to unnecessarily interrupt the hon. Member.

Is the hon. Member for Muhoroni in order when he tries to insinuate in this House that there are two categories yet if I rush to my office now, you will get a bulky record of the penalties that are charged to boda boda people by NHIF, which is 500 per cent?

Thank you very much. It is on record that my good friend and colleague, the Member of Parliament for Kabete has just walked us through what the penalties are. I do not know if the Member for Kirinyaga Central has something personal against me. But I will continue---

I will not allow you to proceed in that direction. We really need to have a civil debate. He has raised a genuine point of order. I mean you need to respond and, probably, get guided if you are not familiar with the rules.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Okay. I will continue to say that when a penalty is levied on an employer who deducts money from their poor employees, and then they continue to keep such money instead of remitting the same--- That is tantamount to handling stolen goods. Therefore, this Motion is very good, but it should be opposed. The penalty should not just be 500 per cent. Those people should pay back the money at 500 per cent. They should also be charged with a criminal offence of handling stolen goods. That is because they deduct money from poor employees and continue to use the money to run their businesses. That is what we call impunity and, at this very moment, this country is busy fighting something called impunity. I would like to oppose this Motion and insist that the Government continues to review the law, so that punishment is not only 500 per cent--- It should be the 500 per cent and a jail term. That way, employers who are bent on making more and milking poor employees are punished. Such employees are deprived of the opportunity to get better medical facilities. Those are poor employees who really need that kind of facility. I suggest that more punitive measures be added on top of the 500 per cent penalty. That kind of impunity, if not checked--- Recently, we saw NHIF trying to use the poor employees’ deductions to benefit non-existent medical providers. That is what we call total impunity and this House should take the lead and remedy that kind of bad situation; it makes poor people continue suffering. There are people who sleep and wake as instant millionaires out of poor peoples’ suffering. With those few remarks, I want to oppose the Motion, and suggest that the law should be reviewed, so that more serious punitive measures are legalised. Thank you very much.

Yes, hon. Sunjeev.

Thank you---

Order. Proceed, hon. Sunjeev.

Thank you. I think he is confused. Thank you very much for seeing me. I wholeheartedly oppose this Motion for the reasons that--- You see, we are missing the point, which is discipline. If somebody has to do something by a certain time, he has to do it by that time. You cannot tell me that I passed an examination, which I was supposed to sit yesterday, and I have passed it. That is because I should have failed it. So, the 500 per cent penalty might be too high. But the point is that the system must be followed. The system must be looked into, and it must be overhauled. We must find out where the problems are, and corruption is one of them. It is the root cause of many of the problems in our country. I seriously feel that what we should not be discussing is 500 per cent or 25 per cent. What we should discuss is how we should overhaul the system, so that we make it better for us. With that, I oppose this Motion. Thank you.

Hon. Members, I will give this chance to the hon. Member for Kitui East.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. My names are hon. Major Muluvi, Member of Parliament for Kitui East.

I guess that this is your maiden speech?

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Yes. I rise to support the Motion. At the same time, I want to make my maiden speech. First, I want to thank the people of Kitui East for electing me as their Member of Parliament. I would also like to make a few remarks on the President’s Address. One, I want to touch on infrastructure. With regard to the Kibwezi-Kitui-Mwingi Road, the previous Governments have always promised to tarmac it and, more so, during the campaign periods.

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Order! I will not allow your point of order. I am sure the Member on the Floor is sensing the urgency. Go ahead.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am saying that, that road serves the eight constituencies of Kitui County. That county is endowed with a lot of minerals. I can say here that the county has the largest deposits of coal in the region, not only in the country. It is extremely unfortunate that, that road has gone for all the years without being tarmacked.

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Now, the hon. Member is making his maiden speech. Of course, it would be prudent that we contribute to the Motion at hand; but let us allow some little leeway to the hon. Member since it is his maiden speech.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I also want to make a few remarks on insecurity in the country, especially the lower part of my constituency – the locations of Malalani, Endau and Voo. In the last ten months, we have lost more than ten people in the hands of bandits. A month ago we also lost one young businessman. This is of serious concern. I will be coming up with a Motion in this House in due course over this matter.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also want to make a few remarks on the education sector. One, I want to make a remark regarding the laptops. This is a noble idea, but I want to say here that infrastructure needs to be addressed. Seventy per cent of the primary school teachers in the rural set-up are not computer literate. The Jubilee Government needs to come up with a crash programme to lay the infrastructure and, of course, train our primary school teachers, if this project is to take off.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also want to make one more point on education. In the constituency I represent, 30 per cent of the teachers are employed by the Parents Teachers Association (PTA). PTA teachers are paid less than Kshs5,000 per month. I am aware that the Teachers Service Commission (TSC) will be employing teachers. I am requesting for the benefit of all PTA employed teachers in the republic that they be given preference in the forthcoming employment by the TSC

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, with those few remarks, I beg to sit down.

Hon. Members, I want to make some observation. I understand that there will be many hon. Members who will be making their maiden speeches; by the custom of this House, they are supposed not to be interrupted, but it is also important that hon. Members are guided. There are specific kinds of comments that you would make on particular issues. What the hon. Member has just done would have been very well with the Presidential Address, but as I have said we

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. My name are Waititu Francis Munyua, Member of Parliament for Juja Constituency. I would like to thank you. I have always attended this august House, but today, luckily, I have caught your eye.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, on this Motion, I have been working as a group manager of coffee farms around Juja and Thika; I know when you surcharge Kshs500 from an employee ‘s salary it is on the higher side as correctly stated here. I was caught up in a situation where I was running five coffee farms and the prices of coffee were very low. I failed to pay my workers. I know in agriculture you employ people but when the prices and the climate change, you end up not paying their salaries, and not even submitting returns to the National Hospital Insurance Fund (NHIF). When you go to their offices they do not want to hear your explanations, since all they want is their money paid; if you do not pay this is the situation which arises, mostly with the farmers.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will support this Motion and say that the officers from the NHIF go round companies inspecting various accounts and seeing what you are selling, what your input is and if you do not have money, this is what happens and it affects mostly farmers. If I go to the surcharge and what hon. Muchai has just said, it is true that when you do not pay the law catches up with you; you also have to negotiate with the workers whom you have not paid due to the fact that you also have not been paid for the coffee that you sold. I think the best way that the Government and this august House should agree on is to look at the farmers who are affected by this situation. Even this situation affects sugar-cane farmers since sometimes prices of sugar are too low and sugar factories cannot pay their farmers. These factories also have to pay the NHIF fees for their workers, but they fail and so they are also caught in this situation of being surcharged, not because they do not want to pay, but is because of the way the situation is in the sugar industry.

So, it is not through ignorance; we want to look at the farmers in the wider picture. Even in the livestock industry people are employed and if there is drought and you have 100 workers working for you, they want you to remit their NHIF dues and you have not paid their salaries that will also affect you. I think it is high time the agriculture sector was looked into, especially when the prices drop.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I support; this being my maiden speech, I would also like to inform the House that in Jomo Kenyatta University of Agriculture and Technology (JKUAT), laptops are being assembled and within a year they will be manufacturing the same for this country. So, it is good for the hon. Members of this House to visit JKUAT and see what they are doing about laptops. Juja Constituency is run by two district commissioners. I request the Government through its able hands to ensure that Juja Constituency is run by one district commissioner so that my work is made easier.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

There is only one minute and we will give it to hon. Member who will contribute for that one minute. Remember, we will be going to the Motion for Adjournment by hon. Wamunyinyi; really it is about time. We are starting at 5.30 p.m. So, I will give hon. Mwaura one minute.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I rise to oppose this Motion because you cannot justify it because of the high percentage of corruption. There is no way we can guarantee that even if it is 25 per cent somebody will not still demand a bribe. We are talking about the most vulnerable members of the society requiring some healthcare facility. It would be quite wrong for this House to actually look like we are going back when we are supposed to be encouraging everybody to actually expect that they are going to be taken care of by the state when they fall sick. So, as it has been argued before, if we allow people to default then the NHIF will actually run into arrears. It will not be able to actually pay the Bills that will be presented to it.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, because you have only given me one minute, I oppose.

That means that you have concluded your remarks. So, we will start afresh in the next session. We will proceed to the Motion for Adjournment by Hon. Wamunyinyi. Members should know that they have five minutes to contribute to the Motion. However, the Mover will have ten minutes to move the Motion.

Proceed, Hon. Wamunyinyi!

Hon. Wamunyinyi, you are an old Member of this House. I really expect you to move the Motion.

Hon. Wamunyinyi, at that point, you say “this House now adjourns”. That will serve the entire purpose.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Hon. Wamunyinyi, you should summarise now.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand to second the Motion. This is very bad. I lost my brother in the first wave of these attacks. A whole ex-principal of a school, very humble and a man that you could not even argue with was brutally murdered. I buried him a week and a half ago. Hon. Wamunyinyi is one of those who helped me to bury my brother. I speak with emotion because if this continues, we are heading for chaos. Today I read in the newspapers that the Government has deployed a few security officers in the area, but this is reinforcement too late. People are now living in fear. This has happened in Bungoma and the other day, it was happening in Busia. Today, it has been reported to me that it has been repeated in Bungoma at the watch of the security

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Members have five minutes each to contribute. This is a specific Motion on insecurity.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I support the Motion. One of the core functions of the Government is to provide security to its citizens. Any Government that cannot do that has no business being in power. Why are we paying the National Security Intelligence Service (NSIS) so much money, yet these organized criminal gangs are running around causing a lot of chaos to innocent people in quiet

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want to support this Motion because there is so much insecurity in the land. I come from not so far away from Busia, that is Siaya. That is very close and you never know because the insecurity is moving closer home. The Government needs to take over and look after those who are in hospital. What I saw last night on television was actually a patient whose hand had been cut off. The Government needs to take care of the bills. The Government should be in a position to protect its own people. When the President was here to address us, he said that security is one of the pillars that he would be addressing. So, far, I do not see any Minister in charge of internal security. What is happening? Why the delay? Who are we going to address this issue to? I think it is high time the appointment of a Minister in charge of the internal security is done so that action is taken. The Government also said that it would hit the ground running. I think there is laxity already. I am afraid that the longer they take, the worse the situation gets. After all, the same Government said that for every 400 people there would be one policeman. What is happening? Why are they taking long to act? I am getting worried that the country is going to be held to ransom by criminals, if we do not move very fast.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. My name is William Kisang and I am the Member for Marakwet West. I wish to support this Motion, but before that I would like to take this opportunity to thank the people of Marakwet West for giving me this opportunity to represent them in this Eleventh Parliament. I want to support the Motion for the following reasons: In the recent past, there have been a lot of cases of insecurity in Marakwet West. More than ten people have been killed. I am just from home from attending a burial of a 28 year old man who was killed two weeks ago. He was on his boda boda going home. On the way, he was attacked by a gang of thugs. Unfortunately he died. We requested the local police station to enhance security. We told them to come for the burial, but it is with regret that they did not attend.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Member for Bahati! Before he addresses this Motion for Adjournment, for hon. Members who will be giving their maiden speeches, the leeway is only on interruption and not the time.

Ahsante sana, mhe. Naibu Spika wa Muda kwa nafasi hii. Naunga mkono hoja hii inayohusu masuala ya usalama. Ni jambo la huzuni kuona mambo yaliyofanyika huko Bungoma. Vile vile, ni jambo la aibu kuona kwamba sisi Wakenya tunauana wenyewe. Haifai hata kidogo. Inatupasa kuangalia hili jambo kwa njia nyingi. Tusilaumiane. Sisi kama Wabunge sharti tuangalie jambo hili kwa makini. Rais alisema kwamba atahakikisha kwamba kuna askari mmoja kwa raia 450. Nisingesema tunamlaumu Rais wetu kwa sababu kuna mpangilio wa mambo. Ukisema utaoa si kwamba utamaliza kufanya mambo yote. Huwa kuna utaratibu. Kusema kwamba askari wataajiriwa, lazima pawepo na bajeti ambayo italetwa hapa. Tunaingojea kwa hamu sana ili tupitishe jambo hilo la fedha ndiposa tutimize lengo la Rais wetu. Hata kama tunalaumu Serikali, sisi Wabunge tunalo jukumu kubwa sana kuhusu usalama wa maeneo bunge yetu. Katika eneo langu la Bahati, pakitokea jambo sharti niwe mstari wa mbele kuita Mkuu wa Wilaya na maafisa wakuu wa usalama. Tunao huo uwezo.

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. We know very well the role of a Member of Parliament in this country. The hon. Member is giving hon. Members another role this afternoon.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Mhe. Naibu Spika wa Muda, nimemsikia mwenzangu. Tumechunguza mambo mengi na tunajua. Hata mambo ya wizi wa ng’ombe yanachangiwa na watu waliomo Serikali na Bungeni. Ndiyo maana nikasema tuna jukumu sisi wenyewe. Hatuwezi kuachia suala la usalama maafisa wa usalama tu. Lazima tushirikiane sote. Kama ni Bungoma, rafiki yangu mhe. Wamunyinyi--- Nakushukuru kwa kuzua jambo hili kwa sababu linahusu kila sehemu ya nchi. Hata hivyo, Wabunge wa eneo hilo wana haki ya kuangalia hili jambo kindani. Hawa watu ni watoto wetu. Wengi wao hawajatoka nje. Tunaelewa kwamba tulitaka kuwa na Inspector-General. Tumpatie nafasi aweze kujipanga.Vile vile, tuipatie Serikali ya Uhuru nafasi. Sisi Wabunge lazima tulaani hivi visa vya mauaji vilivyo huko Bungoma. Mhe. Naibu Spika wa Muda, sisemi eti tujipatie kazi nyingine ya usalama, lakini tuhusishwe kama Wabunge! Tuna haki ya kuangalia na kujua ni kitu gani kinasababisha makosa. Ni haki yetu kuangalia hata maji. Tunaweza kusaidia sana kwa kuchangia kutatua shida zilizoko mashinani kuhusu usalama. Kwa hivyo, ni muhimu sana kufanya hivyo kuliko kutoa lawama; kupiga domo. Tuangalie ni njia gani nzuri ya kufanya hivyo ili tuweze kusaidia Serikali. Asante sana.

Hon. Otucho, the Floor is yours.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to contribute. This is not my maiden speech, but I rise to support the Motion on insecurity.

Hon. Members, I would like to draw your attention to Chapter Four of the Constitution on the Bill of Rights, Articles 26(1) and 29 (c), (d).

Article 26(1) reads as follows:- “Every person has a right to life.”

Article 29(c) reads as follows:-

“Every person has the right to freedom and security of the person, which includes the right not to be- (c) subjected to any form of violence from either public or private sources.”

Article 29(d) reads as follows: “subjected to torture in any manner, whether physical or psychological.”

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, when Kenyans were celebrating Labour Day yesterday, the people of Teso South were mourning. Others spent the whole day in hospital taking care of the injured. In a span of less than two weeks, the people of Teso South have suffered two major attacks; the first one being at Kemodo and the other one at an area called Akobwaiti. So, it is a matter of national interest and we are concerned. We are saddened and wondering where our security forces are. From the information that I have received from the ground, those people are walking from one home to the other. So, why was there no prompt action from the police? It is high time that Mr. Kimaiyo’s office did the necessary thing to protect the lives of Kenyans. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is need to conduct speedy investigations and apprehend the culprits because in most of the cases, nobody has been arrested. But, at least, I am happy to report that in this particular case, I have been told

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

The lady Member of Parliament for Bungoma County. Kindly, introduce yourself.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I want to rise and support the Motion as a Member of Parliament from Bungoma County. The situation in Bungoma with regard to security is worrying. By yesterday, people who were critically injured and in hospital were more than 20. As I am talking here, many people are not sleeping in their houses. Old men and women, fragile and frail as they may be, are actually sleeping out of their homes. This situation is running out of hand. It is very important that the Government looks into the situation in Bungoma. Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to point at one particular case which, to me, is quite worrying. The Inspector-General of Police sent a team of security officers to help in investigations of the security situation in Bungoma. But one thing came out clearly and it is worrying. When they were having a meeting today, the Governor of Bungoma County sent his deputy to go and attend the security meeting. Surprisingly, the Deputy Governor was sent away from the security meeting. What is emerging is that there are conflicts of roles. The team met with the County Commissioner and District Commissioner. It is distancing the Governor’s office from security matters. What is going on as far as the roles of the Governor and the Deputy Governor are concerned with regard to security matters vis-a-vis the County Commissioners’ role in the county? It is important that those roles are clarified so that they come out clearly in order for the Governor to take control on security matters in Bungoma County.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to say this: In Bungoma County, there are issues that touch on the police officers. There is the issue of ethnic balance which, to me, is a factor. For example, in Bumula Constituency, out of the 65 Administration Police officers that operate in the constituency, 45 of them come from one ethnic group. The police officers have overstayed there. Most of them have stayed there for more than ten years. They have become locals and they are no longer officers. They go and drink with the locals. They get so drunk that when you find a drunkard person in the street, you may think it is a local person when it is actually a police officer.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

You will understand my predicament. I think I will be looking for hon. Members from that particular region.

Order, hon. Members! Order! I have just made that decision. I will be looking to those particular areas where insecurity has been rampant in the last few days. I know this is a cross-cutting issue, but we will still have to go that direction.

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. How would you know that the area has no security issue? I come from Siaya. I do not come from the western part, but I have an issue on security?

That is a decision I have made! Yes, hon. Member for Kimilili?

Hon. Kasuti

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Your time is up.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. My name is Silverse Lisamula Anami, Member of Parliament for Shinyalu.

The issue of insecurity cannot be trivialized. We are living in a country where we are aspiring to achieve greater levels in our economic development. We cannot achieve economic development if we do not take care of our security. I would like to recite a situation in Shinyalu Constituency, specifically in Ilesi Ward, where a young entrepreneur, Allan Kisi Shisundi, was working very hard and had put up about two or three shops. Two weeks ago, he was waylaid at the doorway of one of his shops by thugs who captured him and forced him to drink poison. He has since been buried and this left all the shopkeepers and other development- conscious people, in fear.

The happenings in Bungoma have left very many people out of any development activity. These are people who have businesses that will enable this Government to attain the two digit economic growth. It is a pity that the security officers and I would like to be very specific here, and even Administration Police (AP), who are charged with the responsibility of providing security to the citizens and taxpayers--- When they go out they are interested in making money. They conduct illegal arrests of old women, youth, especially boda boda operators and demand bribes from them. We are dealing with a serious issue. The boda boda operators in Shinyalu are beaten every day. So, they cannot operate anytime after 6.00 p.m. because APs are always on their back; they snatch the little income they have made in a day. The old mamas who sell sukuma wiki are attacked by these policemen and forced to pay bribes to earn their freedom.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the citizens of this country entrust their security with the Government. So, the Government should be obligated to provide enough facilitation to the Inspector-General. I have read about the Inspector-General pleading for money. The Government needs to be responsive to this. The Inspector- General cannot achieve if he is not provided with resources. He should be provided with enough resources, so that he can take care of the welfare of his staff. If he does not have enough resources, he will not have the equipment. When some police officers go out, you see them running away from thugs because they are not armed, or do not have proper equipment. Some have to walk to get to the places where they have to provide service. I think it is high time we took life seriously. It is high time the Government prioritised security as a fundamental requirement for development to take place.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion.

I will give hon. Leshoomo two minutes to contribute.

Ahsante sana Mheshimiwa Naibu Spika wa Muda. Ningependa kuchangia Hoja hii. Ningependa kusema---

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

The hon. Member has just crossed the Floor again. Could you kindly proceed to the Bar and bow to the Chair? Proceed, Hon. (Ms.) Leshoomo!

Ahsante sana Mheshimiwa Naibu Spika wa Muda. Ningependa kuunga mkono Hoja hii kuhusu ukosefu wa usalama. Si watu wa Kaunti ya Bungoma ambao wanaathiriwa na ukosefu wa usalama bali ni sisi sote. Nilikuwa ninachangia mambo ya Peace Caravan katika eneo letu. Ningependa kuwapa pole watu wa Kaunti ya Bungoma. Sisi zote tumepitia mambo haya na inafaa tushirikiane ili wauwaji waweze kupatikana haraka. Pia, inafaa viongozi wote wa mashinani washirikiane ili maafisa wa Serikali waweze kujua ukweli kwa sababu maafisa hawajui waelekee wapi. Sisi watu tunaotoka Baragoi, tumeathiriwa kutokana na ukosefu wa usalama tangu 2009. Watu 40 waliuwawa na kukatwa shingo tarehe 17 mwezi uliopita. Tumegundua kwamba ni wale watu tunakaa nao ndio wanachangia vita hivi. Ukiangalia utaona kwamba Tana River, Garissa, Turkana, Samburu---

Hon. (Ms.) Leshoomo, your two minutes are over. I will now give this opportunity to the Leader of the Majority Party to respond.

Thank you, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker---

On a point of order, hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I seek your indulgence to move a Motion for the extension of this sitting under Standing Order No.30. Many of us are sitting here until very late because this is a very sensitive Motion. I request the Chair to extend the sitting for 30 minutes.

Since this is a Motion for Adjournment, I think it will not be proper for us to extend the sitting further. The enthusiasm is understood because insecurity is affecting everybody. Probably, we need to have another opportunity so that we can have another Motion of the same nature. Proceed, Hon. Duale!

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, from the outset I would like to condole the people of Bumula and Kanduyi in Bungoma County, and the people of Amakura Division of Teso South District. I want to join my colleagues by saying that it is the responsibility of any Government to make sure that it protects the lives and property of its people. What is happening in Bungoma and Busia counties is extraordinary security situation. Gangsters are waking up early in the morning in a rural Kenyan setting, not to steal anything but to slash children, women and the elderly. After this attack, an operation was mounted by the Kenya Police. This is particularly in Bumula, Kanduyi and Teso. A number of arrests have been made. I want to confirm that 48 persons were injured. Among them were 20 men, 18 women and ten children. This is not the age when we should have this kind of thing in Kenya. If we look at the Budget Estimates that the Government has laid on the Table today, and if hon. Members scrutinize that Budget, particularly the allocation to the security organs, they will find that many resources have been earmarked for what the Inspector-General of Police requested. This includes more resources for equipment,

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

Thank you, hon. Members. I want to thank you for your contributions. I also want to say that this is my maiden speech in this seat. Hon. Members we have come to the end of today’s sitting. Therefore, the House stands adjourned until Tuesday, 7th May, 2013, at 2.30 p.m.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.

The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor.