Order, Hon. Senators! Could we confirm if we have a quorum?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have 13 Senators in the House; we do not have a quorum.

May the Division Bell be rung?

Order, Senators! We now have quorum. Stop ringing the Division Bell and then we proceed!

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir---

Order, Sen. Nobwola! Do you have a Notice of Motion? Yours was also listed, but under the Motion itself. Is Sen. Muthama here? Okay, proceed. Sen. Catherine Mukite; it is now your turn. Order, Senators! We have 10 minutes only to conclude this particular Motion.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I read my Motion---

Let me check.

You are both right; you were on the Floor and you had not exhausted your time allocation. But, unfortunately, the duration of the entire Motion reached a point where only 10 minutes was remaining and that is usually reserved for the Mover to reply. Now, maybe, you can request Sen. Nobwola to donate a few minutes to you; but it is really her generosity.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I donate my three minutes to the Senator.

Sen. Mukite.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Sen. Daisy has asked me to donate to her two minutes. Thank you,

Proceed, Sen. Daisy.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for this opportunity. Actually, this Motion could not end without me speaking because I represent the youth of this nation. It is a great pity as we have already seen and read that the majority of us are outside there, tarmacking because of lack of jobs. That is why I stand to support this Motion; that we need a Graduates Enterprise Fund, the reason being that in many cases, youth are used as statistics; indicating that we have 70 per cent youth in this country and 42 per cent of them are unemployed. That is why I believe that the proposed Graduates Enterprise Fund will be important, be it those graduates from the polytechnics, colleges or universities. It is because they have a special need – parents have spent money to take them to school – and here they are, after college, and they do not have employment. In the recent days, like the last two weeks, the Higher Education Loans Board (HELB) has been sending messages to graduates asking them to repay their loans. How are they going to repay those loans if they do not have a source of income? That is why I stand to support this Motion. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I read the Motion as I put it to the House:- THAT, aware that the level of unemployment among youths in Kenya is over 70 per cent and rising; concerned that the formal Sector is unable to generate sufficient formal employment for college graduates, resulting in far reaching ramifications to the economy and society across all counties in Kenya; noting that the youths are unable to venture into private enterprises because of lack of access to affordable credit; the Senate urges the Government to take urgent and immediate steps to ensure legislation is enacted to provide for the establishment of a Graduates Enterprise Fund to offer revolving interest free loans to unemployed graduates in all the 47 counties. Mr. Speaker, Sir, as the Senator for Nyandarua has said, this is about enacting a law that is to protect the youth. If you read Article 55 of the Constitution, it is the duty of The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Order, Senator! Your time is up.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir; although I have not made the points. Could you give me two more minutes?

No; just beg to move!

I beg to move the Motion. Thank you. I think it has been in the media; everybody has read about it---

Order! Order, Senator!

Thank you.

Order, Senator! You must learn that when you become generous, you suffer the consequences of generosity. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Order, Senators! I wish to acknowledge the presence of visitors who are visiting us today from the Taita Taveta County Assembly. Allow me, hon. Senators, to introduce to you this delegation, who are seated at the Gallery to my right. The delegation is led by the Taita Taveta County Assembly Speaker, hon. Meshack Maghanga. As I proceed to introduce the delegation, I request that if an hon. Member of the delegation is called, he or she should stand up and be acknowledged in the normal tradition of Parliament. Arising from the inadequacy of space in our Gallery in this temporary Senate Chambers, the delegation had to divide itself into two groups. So, this will be the first group. They are as follows:- The hon. Speaker, Meshack Maghanga; the hon. Chrispus M. Masaga Tondoo, hon. Johns Mughanga Solomon, hon. Ronald Sagurani, hon. Jason Mwamondenyi Tuja, hon. Paul Waweru Mwangi, hon. Abraham Mwambonu Juma, hon. Arresmus Kajeni Mwarabu, hon. Cromwel Mwarigha Baridi, hon. Frumence Mwishila Mndwapimisha, hon. Frank Kichoi Mwawakanyanga and hon. Godwin Kilele Mwamodo. Thank you, and you are most welcome to the Senate Chambers. Next Order!

Who was contributing?

Hon. Senators, on this Motion, we were debating a proposed amendment, which we were to vote on. We shall vote tomorrow with the rest of the other Motions that have been concluded. Senate Majority Leader, it is important that you ensure that we have enough Senators to participate in the voting process tomorrow.

The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Who was on the Floor when debate on this Motion was interrupted?

Hon. Senator for Kakamega County, you have the Floor. You have five minutes to conclude your contribution. Proceed!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I had the Floor when debate on this Motion was interrupted. Just before the interruption because of quorum, I had said that I was in agreement with Senators G.G. Kariuki and Ndiema. However, I am forced to support Sen. G.G. Kariuki and oppose Sen. Ndiema for the reason that Sen. Ndiema is attempting to ride on this very good and important Motion that Sen. G.G. Kariuki has brought before this The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Very few hon. Senators can----

Well, you can draw pararells. I do not want to conclude without addressing the issue that was raised in this Motion by Sen. G.G. Kariuki, that we must profile these IDPs. We have problems of IDPs because we are afraid, we do not want to face them and tell them some truths. We have some IDPs whose only business in Rift Valley was that they were having a kiosk. The only thing they lost was that kiosk. But after they were displaced, they moved away from claiming the kiosk which they lost, they are now claiming five to ten acres of land. Surely, if somebody is claiming that he or she is an IDP from Kiambaa in Eldoret, if he or she, indeed, had land there, there is a chief, sub-chief, DC and DO from that area. These officials will tell us, for example: “This guy called John Kamau, who is claiming land has plot No. “X”, “Y” or “Z”. That man will then be settled. We cannot indefinitely be pumping public funds into the needs of professional squatters and IDPs. Let those who did not have land be humble enough and not claim it. In my own community, for example, we had many Luhyas who were displaced. But because they were doing other things where they were other than owning land, they were integrated in their families and this matter ended there. But there are others who want to practice conmanship; they pretend they are IDPs who lost land when they had no land at all. We know them. When you profile them, you will realise that even some of their surnames seem to have a pattern. This must be stopped if we really want to rise to nationalism.

Your time is up!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, with those few remarks, I beg to oppose Sen. Ndiema’s amendment and support Sen. G.G. Kariuki’s Motion.

Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, you were contributing to an amendment to the Motion. The amendment was:- “THAT, the Motion be amended by deleting the words “over the last 20 years” appearing in the first line and replacing them with the words “since 1945.” The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

But the document I have indicates “1945”. Is it supposed to be 1895? Let me confirm.

Where is Senator Ndiema?

Hon. Senators, we have confirmed that the amendment to the Motion should read as follows:- “THAT, the Motion be amended by deleting the words “over the last 20 years appearing in the first line and replacing them with the words “since 1895.” That is the amendment you may wish to talk to. Proceed, Sen. Wetangula.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the distinguished hon. Senator moving this amendment is a member of my party and coalition. But I find it difficult to appreciate the philosophy behind the 1895 period. Any country that wants to move forward must be like a good driver. You cannot drive to your destination with your eyes on the rear view mirror because you will not move, you will crash. We set up the TJRC after the post-election violence of 2007/2008. Part of what they were to look into, I believe, is what Sen. Ndiema has in mind. These are historical injustices. But we also know that the TJRC Report now remains a mystery. We understand that the chapter on land was disagreed on, mutilated or doctored so that the truth does not come out. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in 1895, there was no state called Kenya. I do not know what my distinguished party member wants to address. Part of this country was under a British company called the Imperial British East African Company (IBEAC), whose sole intention was to find a route to Uganda. At the time, they were not even interested in Kenya.

You are misleading us!

I am quite well informed on this.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is your point of order, Sen. (Dr.) Machage?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, is the hon. Senator in order to mislead the House that there was no country called Kenya? We know that Kenya became a British protectorate in 1895. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the hon. Senator is just fortifying what I was saying; a protectorate is not a state. He should understand this. I know he is a very well educated person. Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I oppose this amendment, I also find it very difficult to come to terms with the whole Motion. I was driving to the airport to go to Mombasa and I listened to the distinguished hon. Senator for Kisumu County, Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’- Nyong’o. I thought he made valuable contributions to this Motion. I know that Sen. G.G. Kariuki holds very passionate views about the IDPs. But where do you start and end? What normally happens whether you are reviewing issues of 1895, 1993 or 2007? There are some politically-instigated clashes, like Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale has said, that have resulted in what we would call professional IDPs. People come; they are taken to a settlement and given land. The next day they sell the land and go back to the camps and become IDPs. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in 2007, the country produced the highest number of IDPs in Kenya. This was because of the conflict between two communities in the Rift Valley. My community suffered serious collateral damage. Those two communities are now firmly in a political bed. The IDPs left their land; their houses were burnt down and went to markets and camps. Their land, however, was not burnt and is still there. Why can the Government not take these people back to their parcels of land? We do not want to get to a situation where Prof. Ali Mazrui remarked once; very intelligently, that once two elephants fight, the grass suffers. He added that grass suffers more when the two elephants make love. Now that the elephants are together, should the grass continue to suffer? This is a big question. I do not think we should spend any state money---

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. While the remarks by my fellow Senator are not only worthy of making people laugh, they, indeed, are serious. Is he in order to mislead the country and this House that the 2007 clashes were caused by a sour affair between two communities? Again, which communities? Is he in order to imply that there are two communities currently making love?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is obvious that the distinguished Senator for Kiambu went to a different school than I went to. I did not say that the two communities had an affair. I was very clear. I think he knows the story of Kiambaa Church among other incidences like the one that happened in Naivasha. Many people from the Luhya Community were killed and others expelled from their properties but we have not asked for money to buy land for them because we responsibly took them into the communities. I will oppose, every day of my life, any attempt to take public funds to buy land to resettle IDPs without holding those who caused them to be IDPs responsible. That is the starting point. If you go to Trans Nzoia where my distinguished party man, Sen. Ndiema, The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of information, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Please, inform me my distinguished party man.

My party leader, I just want to inform you - since you were not there last time - that those are the people I was referring to as having been left out of the resettlement programme of IDPs. These are the people who would be excluded if the main Motion went through. Their cases date back beyond 20 years.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to thank Sen. Ndiema for that information. Let me finish by saying this: This country must undertake serious agrarian reforms. We must re-profile our land tenure system. We must move away from the feeling and belief that for one to be anybody in this country, they must own land. That is where the problem lies. For a country with just about 20 per cent of our land arable, we must change our psyche and attitude about land. I oppose the amendment and will also oppose the main Motion.

Order, hon. Members. We have about 10 minutes remaining for both the main Motion and the amendment to be disposed of. The Chair directs that the main Motion be disposed of tomorrow. We will try to dispose of the amendment now so that we do not overcrowd tomorrow’s time. This is a Motion affecting counties. Before I put the question, you know that we will vote by delegations.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir, following your ruling, I was just wondering whether in the interest of time; given that we do not have a lot of business ahead of us, considering that it is still early in the afternoon, whether we can stay the voting on the amendment but allow the main debate to go on? When we vote for the amendment, if it does not go through, we will have exhausted the main Motion and vote on it. If you so rule, what would stop us from doing the same to the Motion by Mr. Orengo? The Orengo Motion still has a lot of time on the main Motion but we were due to vote. I thought you should guide us.

Sen. Orengo had requested that we take the voting to tomorrow. Unless he has discussed this with you, without informing the Chair to change that position, this was a straightforward matter. While I appreciate your concern, considering that the Chair is at liberty to do so, except procedurally, we must dispose the amendment before we move to the Motion that was being amended. Order, Senators! I order that the Division Bell be rung. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Sen. Boy Juma Boy.

Sen. Mositet.

Order, Senators! I wish to announce the results of the Roll Call Division.

No!

Just to educate a few Senators who may still be thinking that we are in the other House, when the Senate votes by the delegations, you need to acquire a minimum of 24 counties to be able to carry whatever business that is The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Yes. What is it, Sen. Keter?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I just want to seek a clarification. Is this a county issue? This is not a county issue according to me.

Order! Order, Sen. Keter! You are arguing with the Chair and that is a very dangerous path to pursue.

It is the Chair who determines whether a matter is affecting counties or not and at the time of that determination, of course, you can always challenge the Chair in a proper way. Before we took the vote, I made it abundantly clear that this is a matter affecting counties. So, that is why we went on to the roll call division. That is the correct position. Hon. Senators, in fact, even the first line of the Motion reads like this:- “Aware that over the last 20 years, thousands of people in some counties in Kenya---“ So this is a matter affecting counties. We now have a balance of 10 minutes where we will call upon the Mover to reply on the initial Motion. The voting for the main Motion will be tomorrow afternoon.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you for this second opportunity for me to try and reply to this Motion which has just taken us some time. There is no need for me to repeat or to attempt to reply to issues which were raised by Members of the Senate. I want to insist that the time we moved this Motion, we did not intend to speak or talk about land issues in this country. Land is a big problem in this country. It has a lot of other connotations because most people think that the problems that we go through in this country are because of land but personally, I have known two things. Land being number two, the major problem is leadership. People have been fighting. For example, in Laikipia, we have about 14 tribes but they have never fought over land. Nobody has ever thought of moving any other person from his land. During the political period when people are campaigning who will become the president and so on, that is where the problem begins. I want to talk to my friend who attempted to amend this Motion that this issue has been taken care of by Article 67 of our Constitution. That one is very clear and if he could pursue that issue, he will find that the problem he has of historical injustices and whatever other injustices he might want to introduce, the enactment of the Constitution of Kenya 2010 has given fresh hope for the Maasai land claims, especially Article 67 which has created a National Land Commission whose duties are to initiate investigation on its own initiative or a complaint into present or historical land injustice and recommend appropriate redress. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is it, Sen. Ole Ndiema?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Senator to say that my interest was catered for somewhere else while here the issue is dealing with Internally Displaced Persons? Also noting that in the Constitution, the national values and principles of governance require, under Article 10(2)(b), that there be human dignity, equity, social justice and inclusiveness, the 20 year limit excludes and yet the Constitution says that there must be inclusiveness, equity, human rights and non- discrimination and protection of marginalized people.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish the honourable Senator could have asked me to give him some information because he is attempting to give this House further information but that does not do away with Article 67 of the Constitution. In any case, my appeal to you is to consider people who are being rained on as we stand here because of a fault which is not theirs. They are suffering because of issues they do not even understand. They are suffering because they have made some of us Members of Parliament or Members of the Senate just by sheer voting. I think time has come when we should do away with political disagreements and this House should start looking for ways and means of getting all the wrongs which have happened in the last 20 or 30 years and correcting them. It can only do that if we do away with agitative politics where if anybody brings anything we see politics in it. Let us now try and see a human being in everything that we have try to do here. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I remember looking at the records where you headed a select committee of the National Assembly which came out with a very good recommendation. I was happy to look at it when I was doing some investigation about this Motion and I found that you were concerned and so is everybody. So, let us not appear out there as if we do not care about others. When the honourable Senator found that it is not conclusive, we can bring a Motion to do exactly what my friend wanted to do. If somebody is rained on and you tell him that he should continue being rained on until other people come to report to us whether they are having similar problems, that is not good.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is it, Sen. Ndiema?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, does it mean that a Senator wants people to be rained on? I have made it clear here that I would like all IDPs including those who were rained on to be resettled. It should not be limited to those who have been IDPs for only 20 years so that it can capture those who have been rained on for many more years.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think you can understand the problem. I will give one or two minutes to Sen. Njoroge. Do I have that time?

He is not around!

Ideally, we usually donate before. I think just conclude. Next time you learn to donate before. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. We all agree that we are learning. We are in a new Chamber and most of us are not familiar. Some of us left this place a long time ago and we stayed out for some time. I would also like to mention that Sen. Murungi attempted to explain the Maasai and British agreement. That is a big problem because the Maasai voluntarily, willingly or unwillingly signed an agreement with the British Government in 1904 which decided that the Maasais would be given two districts. The districts were Narok and Laikipia. But the Europeans found that that was not enough for their settlement. In 1911, they signed another agreement which pushed all the Maasai from Laikipia to the southern side of the railway. During the Lancaster House Conference, the Maasais attempted to ask the British Government to leave the land under their responsibility but the British did not agree with the Maasais at that particular time and without explanation rejected the clamour by the people of North Eastern Province to secede and join other people in Somalia. Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is not this Senate which will solve this matter whether we like it or not. We will cry and appear to be helping our people, but I think time has come for me to tell the Kikuyus that this country belongs to all of us. It is high time for all of us to be open to our people and tell them that nobody will move any person from where he is. Let us agree and not behave as if time is coming---

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am just curious; I want to know what the Senator is talking about. He is saying that the Kikuyus should be told that land belongs to all of us. Is that generic or he is specifically talking about the Kikuyus? If you want to inform the people that this country belongs to all of us, then you must inform all the 40 million Kenyans. But you cannot in fairness – this is going on HANSARD – tell the Kikuyus as if they do not know. We know that this country belongs to all of us. I say that strongly believing that unless he is talking generically, I would like to understand whether that is what he means for the HANSARD or it was a mistake.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am sorry that I have to disagree with the Deputy Speaker. I think he should listen to what others are saying. I said that we must tell the Kikuyus and the other people in this country. If he was not listening, that is not my problem. It is entirely his problem. Therefore, my experience in this House---

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. As you know this is a gentleman I have a lot of respect for and that is the reason I have been listening very carefully to this Motion. I would like to challenge him and if need be that the HANSARD be looked at because he said exactly what I said. I said it is in good faith. I just want to understand whether that is what he meant or whether he meant “Kikuyus and other people of this country” because that would be acceptable to me.

Of course, we need to confirm with the HANSARD what your precise words were. The Chair heard the way the Deputy Speaker heard but you have clarified in the subsequent ones that you meant KIkuyus and others. So, I think to settle the matter, just set the record straight and we will all be comfortable.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is no way I will only single out the Kikuyus in the way they are being described. Maybe I was misunderstood. The purpose The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Time is up!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move.

Order hon. Senators! As we agreed, we have concluded debate on this particular Motion. We will not take the vote now. We will take the vote tomorrow with the rest of the concluded Motions. So, again, I give notice to the Senators that tomorrow afternoon you should be available in the House to take the vote. Before we proceed to the next business, I will allow the Senator for Machakos to give the Notice of Motion. He has explained the reasons why he could not give it at the time the Order was called out and the Chair is quite satisfied that those were circumstances beyond his control. Before we do so, I would like to introduce the second group o f Members of the delegation from the Taita Taveta County Assembly whom we said could not all be here because of our limited space. I would like to inform our visitors that for the avoidance of doubt, this is a temporary shelter, you are most welcome to come when we get our proper Chambers and then you will know that you are in the Senate. The second group from the Taita Taveta County Assembly include:- Hon. Haris Keke Nganga Hon. Judah Kilonzo Mulwa Hon. Johnes Fundi Maskuji Hon. Justine Juma Mwamba Hon. Liverson Mwazala Maghanga Hon. Omar Ahmed Hon. Raymond Mwangola Hon. Reuben Kipampltiges Ms. Veriti M. Mganga - Clerk to the Assembly Mr. Andrew S. Jumanne - Serjeant-at-Arms Hon. Senators you will notice that that is our employee whom we have seconded to the Taita Taveta County Assembly. Mr. Michael Ngala - Finance Officer Mr. Rodgers Mwakio - Clerk Assistant Mr. William Sowa - Clerk Assistant. Thank you and you are most welcome. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I do appreciate your consideration for giving me the opportunity to give Notice to this Motion. I beg to give Notice of the following Motion:- THAT aware that a large population, especially in Tana River, Murang’a, Embu, Kitui, Machakos and Makueni counties depend on Tana and Athi River for their livelihood; concerned that industrial chemical and animal waste and residue soil continue to find their way into these important rivers thereby seriously polluting them; further concerned that waste from Dandora Dumping Site is a major pollutant of Athi River; further concerned that the Government’s response against pollution of rivers has been grossly inadequate; appreciating the provisions of the Environmental Management and Coordination Act, 1999, cognizant that Article 69 (1) (g) of the Constitution obligates the State to eliminate processes and activities likely to endanger the environment, the Senate urges the Government to take immediate steps to stop pollution of Tana and Athi Rivers, compel polluters to compensate those affected and further that the Department of Environment, Water and Natural Resources submits a report to the Senate within six months on specific measures taken to protect the rivers from pollution and compensate those affected.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, recognizing that the respective functions and powers of national and county governments are provided for in Article 186 and the Fourth Schedule of the Constitution, and that under paragraphs 15, 16 and 17 of Part 1 of the Fourth Schedule, education policy, including promotion of sports, is a function of the national government; further recognizing that Article 187 of the Constitution provides for the transfer of functions and powers from one level of government to the other, particularly if the function or power can be more effectively performed by the receiving government; aware that Part III of the Intergovernmental Relations Act, 2012 requires that agreements on transfer of functions be in writing and The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir I want to commend the Mover of the Motion for presenting his views very eloquently. This is a very important Motion. I support the Motion and, indeed, there is need for the two levels of government to complement each other and to cooperate in matters regarding provision of essential services. Education, in particular, is a very essential service to our communities particularly as we appreciate its importance in terms of development; economic development, provision of manpower and meeting the manpower needs of our country and developing individual capacities as human beings. Therefore, it is a very important matter. We are all aware that this function belongs to the national government. However, we also know that the national government has limitations. We have schools all over our counties; we have primary and secondary schools scattered all over the country. We are aware that many times the national government positioned in Nairobi is not familiar with the conditions of some of the institutions in the counties. Therefore, if we developed relationships where these functions could be transferred to the counties, that would represent the perfect situation where at the county level, people own the schools. They would know the inadequacies and challenges which the institutions face. It is only logical that we transfer these functions to the county governments where they would be best handled. For this reason, I support this arrangement. I know that this will require negotiations between various county governments and the national institutions. However, we will urge, particularly, the national government to understand and appreciate this situation because I believe that it will add a lot of value. We have seen situations before where officials at the national level have funds intended to improve infrastructure both for the primary and secondary schools but the manner in which the resources are distributed leaves a lot to be desired. There is no arrangement or criteria for distributing these funds. We know for sure that if these resources were to be transferred to the county level, they will be put into good use. The infrastructure will be improved at that level. Probably, this is what we need because it will have a more positive impact, not only to the students, but also to the communities which own and support these institutions. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, once again, I want to commend the Mover of this Motion for the initiative of bringing it to this level. I request my colleagues in this House to support this very important Motion. In particular, I believe that it will add value and improve infrastructure at the various institutions of learning in our counties. It is really something that we ought to encourage because of the value that it will bring. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank you now that I have caught your eye. I was wondering whether I would get a chance because others have not spoken on the last Motion. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this Motion is a bit complicated. It is too early to start thinking that county governments are capable of handling this big responsibility. We all know that county governments have not settled yet in terms of personnel and ability to deal with the functions which are in their hands. I support this Motion, but I think the Mover needs to consider its terms because if we transfer this big responsibility to county governments very soon they will not handle it. If we are going to deal with it immediately, then I think that we will land this country into a bigger problem. But eventually, this kind of responsibility will have to be transferred to the county governments where they will be handled effectively.

Madam Temporary Speaker, education is a very important factor in our development. The educationists are here with us and will come and say more about what they think about this Motion. However, we have to be extremely careful and ensure that the standards of our education will not be compromised at county government level. Those are new governments and we respect them. We know that no county government has so far settled down. They are in the process of employing personnel, preparing their budgets and creating their status. Therefore, it will be difficult for me to think whether time is ripe for us to transfer this kind of a responsibility to county governments. First of all, they have the responsibility of primary education, but they have not attempted to do anything about it. The Senate Committee has just started going round to see if there will be any improvements that they can recommend or support. Let us think very critically whether it is really ripe for us to allow this situation to happen before we jump into these affairs. I agree with someone who said that the responsibility can effectively be handled by the local people. But even today, the central Government does not interfere with the public when they decide to put up a classroom or develop a secondary school in any area. I do not know of any person who has ever been stopped from starting a secondary school in his locality. Madam Temporary Speaker, I think that the Senate Leader of Majority has tried to explain the purpose of this Motion. However, if it was within my power, or if I could advise him, the time is not ripe for this Motion. He needs to frame it in a different way. But if it is supported by the Jubilee Government and it is the one which thinks that it is now time to start negotiating internally with the county governments on how to hand over powers, I have no reason not to support it. Madam Temporary Speaker, I support this Motion, but with a lot of reservations. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I rise to support the Motion and congratulate the Mover. Madam Temporary Speaker, I want to pick from where the President stopped during the summit that he recently held with the Governors from the 47 counties, and actually be more optimistic than the Senator for Laikipia. We all know that the longest journey starts with one step. By all means, this country is ready for devolution. If we were not, then we would not have passed the Constitution as it is right now. Madam Temporary Speaker, I want to actually pick up from where the Senate Leader of Majority left. I would like to note that when we look at the efficiency or performance of roles more effectively, it will take maybe a whole week or more, even to procure a piece of chalk because of the processes followed in the national Government. These county governments are settling down and they need to be supported. At the same time, we cannot dismiss them and say that they lack capacity. When we were discussing the Division of Revenue Bill, the Committee on Devolved Government and the Committee on Finance had a lot of reservations. It is true that counties do not have the capacity or they are not ready to shoulder some of these responsibilities at the moment. They need time to reorganize themselves. The President was right when he gave directive that some of these functions be devolved immediately. We cannot keep on waiting until we say we are ready to devolve these functions. We must start the discussions. We are not actually hiring new personnel for the counties or doing everything from point zero. We are looking at staff who are already in the counties. The central Government can assist county governments to start off by seconding officers, so that they are effectively managed. We must not shy away from taking this role to the county governments. This will lead to more efficiency and things we will move faster. It will also lead to the local people that we represent in this Senate feeling that they own a piece of the processes. If they can be entrusted with the Early Childhood Development (ECDE), which is already a function of the counties, why can they not be entrusted with taking this children right from their daycare to the primary and secondary levels? Madam Temporary Speaker, I support the Motion. It is time that we gave it a chance; we should be optimistic and ready to build the capacity of the county governments.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this Motion. I rise to support the Motion, taking into account the fact that the Mover of the Motion clearly indicated that what is being proposed to be transferred are actually the resources, functions and powers relating to development of infrastructure and equipping of the institutions. That does not affect the quality of education because the policies and guidelines are all still under the national Government. Madam Temporary Speaker, I support this Motion because I come from an area where illiteracy levels are still very high. I am talking of about 80 per cent illiteracy. With the new Constitution which has devolution, where the county governments are to take care of education, I think that now we have a new beginning. If we start with the ECDE programmes then we can capture, at least, those who have been missing out due to lack of The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Madam Temporary Speaker, thank you for giving me a chance to contribute to this very important Motion. I rise to support it and also to congratulate the Mover. Without repeating what my colleagues have said, I think it is an important Motion, especially when we are talking about the transfer of resources, functions and powers which relate to the development of infrastructure, equipping of institutions of learning at primary and secondary levels. I also commend the Government for the work they have been doing before. It is time we realized that devolution is here with us. So, it is time that the people of various counties contributed to the development of their education at primary and secondary levels. I have had various discussions with my Governor and the county executives who have just been appointed in Samburu County. One of the things they are saying is that they want to be in charge of the ECDE or the nursery schools. After that, what happens to The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Madam Temporary Speaker, first of all, I would like to say that I support this Motion because it is aimed at making the counties function. In my view, we must take step after step to be able to achieve the objective of making counties operational. While ECDE institutions can be managed by county governments because they require minimum supervision and support unlike primary, secondary schools and colleges, it is incumbent upon the Government not to merely transfer and increase the burden of the counties without proper planning and proper arrangement, so that we do not fall into serious problems in future. I am particularly concerned with the marginalized areas whereby exams after exams show that they have been at the bottom of the line. So, if the entire operation of education is transferred to the county governments, it might even worsen the situation instead of improving it. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Madam Temporary Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to support this Motion. I want to thank Sen. Murkomen for introducing this Motion at this time. You notice that the Fourth Schedule describes the function of the national Government and functions of the county governments. Allow me to read this so that we do not misunderstand the intention of Sen. Murkomen when he brought it here. The Fourth Schedule concerning the functions of the national Government, especially Nos.15 and 16 says as follows:- “The national government is to do education policy, standards, curriculum, examinations and the granting of university charters. 16. Universities, tertiary educational institutions and other institutions of research of higher learning, primary schools, special education, secondary schools and special education institutions.” The functions of the county governments talks about what the Mover of this Motion intended. If you look at No.9, it talks about pre-primary education, village polytechnics, homecraft centres and child care facilities. Madam Temporary Speaker, what the Mover of this Motion had in mind is that we need infrastructure to be done by the county governments, but the examinations will be done by the national government whereby it will be uniform across the whole country. All standards and measures will be done by the national Government, but the recruitment of teachers will be done by the government although it is done at the county level. What this Motion wants is that we need to devolve construction of infrastructure like classrooms, toilets, water and so on to schools. If you remember, from 1963, Kenya has been operating on Harambee basis to build schools until 2002 when the Constituencies Development Fund (CDF) came in. It is when we saw a hand given by the Government to the constituencies and for which the leaders from those constituencies started doing booming construction. Where I come from, in 2002, we had very few primary and The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. The distinguished Senator for West Pokot - you can see the making of a dictator arrogating himself powers that he will never have. This Motion, in spirit, is good to the extent that we need to help counties to develop and assist our people in near similar developmental activities around the country. The Motion coming from the Committee on Devolution and Planning, I do not know whether it is a personal Motion by the distinguished Senator for Elgeyo-Marakwet or it is a Motion from the Committee. Whatever it is, I would want to see a situation where, however short the time may be, we start looking at the powers already vested in the counties. What are they doing with them? How much have they done so far? Is the centre giving them enough resources to execute those powers and those activities? Of course, we are in a state where the national Government blows hot and cold about devolution. When it is convenient, they shout from rooftops that they support devolution. When it is not, they do the complete opposite. When you look at the Constitution, Schedule 4, and the distinguished Senator for West Pokot has read it out, I do not need to. Sections 15, 16 and 17 really are matters that ought to remain the preserve of the national Government; education policy, standards, curricula, examinations, university charters, universities, tertiary educational institutions, institutions of research and higher learning, primary schools and special education. All these should and must remain part and parcel of the responsibility of the national Government. Madam Temporary Speaker, Section 17 is on promotion of sports and sports education. This I fully agree should be devolved to the counties. This is because when The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Madam Temporary Speaker, I just want to know whether my senior in the profession and junior in this House is in order to insinuate that there are certain parts in this country which have no capacity to produce talents. This being the Senate – the House of reflection and the House of national unity – I plead that the Chair rules that my learned senior and junior in this House withdraws those remarks.

Senate Minority Leader, can you elaborate on that?

Madam Temporary Speaker, it is obvious that my learned junior was mesmerized by my language and forgot the facts. I never said that there are areas which cannot produce and nurture talent. I said that we are in a country where tribalism, nepotism, sectionalism – name it – are the order of the day. We have a new Constitution, but we have the same old people, playing the same old dirty games, such that if we gave any discretion to somebody to go and build an athletics stadium, you will find somebody going to build it in an area that since Independence, has not been known to produce a single runner just because he comes from there. You will find the best football stadium being built in Tharaka-Nithi just because somebody comes from there, when the real footballers are in Nyanza, Western, Nairobi and Coast. That is all I am saying. I could see the seasoned Senator for Laikipia nodding in approval as I was saying this.

The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Order, Senator! What is the meaning of the word “mabwenyenye ?” The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Madam Temporary Speaker,

are rich people; that is all it means.

You must continue your debate in English because you started in English.

Madam Temporary Speaker,

for those who do not understand Kiswahili language, refers to rich people. Madam Temporary Speaker, the children of rich people in the urban areas and in cities go to school at 7.00 a.m. from Mondays to Fridays; on Saturday they are in school, half of Sunday they are in school, the teachers are teaching them and by the time when they are in Standard Eight and it is May, they are through with the syllabus; the rest is revision to wait for examinations. The same happens to the Form Four students. But in the countryside, children go to do biology examinations and yet, they have never seen a laboratory. They go to sit for chemistry examinations, but they have never seen a test tube in their lives. Yet, they will compete in the same national examination. How can you take unequal forces, put them together and say “now, compete fairly?” That is what devolution is here for. Madam Temporary Speaker, I am very happy with the Senate because Senators have distinguished themselves as men and women of focus; they are not embroiled in petty things. They are focusing on how to empower the ordinary man and woman in the counties. Five years down the line, history will judge this Senate very harshly if, at the end of our first term, we shall not have created some visible levels of equity in our society, particularly in education, and infrastructure, especially in roads and water provision. Madam Temporary Speaker, if you represent a rural constituency like I did for the last many years and hon. Senators like Hargura who come from the most marginalized areas understand this, you find a school has Standard One to Standard Eight and yet the entire school has only two teachers from the TSC. At the end of the day, they must face the same exam with children from privileged schools. We are building the most unequal society and that is so dangerous for our future. You go to some schools and you find that they have so many teachers; some teachers sit knitting from morning to evening while in other schools, there are no teachers.

We must rationalize this. Madam Temporary Speaker, this Motion talks of resources, functions and powers. However, I am not so much interested in functions and powers. I am more interested in resources. If these Senators say in every county, no primary school shall be left without proper classrooms of approved standards by the Ministry responsible for public works, this must happen. This is so that you do not just go to a place and you find one school looks like a Four Star hotel; you go to the next village and a school looks like--- I do not know what you would call it. If I was to be allowed to use Kiswahili language, I would The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I support this Motion from the outset. When I imagine how my county is and go back to the Speech by the President, I find that the only way we can be effective and efficient as the President had put it is by supporting this Motion. It has been said a lot that our Government normally comes up with the best way of doing things. But out of the budget allocations, 40 per cent goes to waste. However, if we adopt this Motion, we will improve on that line. We will become very efficient and effective in improving our educational institutions. I believe that we, as leaders of our counties and the rest of Kenyans know our areas very well. In fact, I am sorry, but I stand to be guided; I do not know whether the national Government has ever equipped or even built schools in my county. Apart from the centres of excellence which were done a few years ago, I cannot trace the history and say that a particular school was built by the Government. We have always done this through Harambees and Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs) until the CDF was founded. With this Motion, I believe that most areas will have schools. Some children are learning under trees while others use churches to learn. We will turn these areas into worship centres and come up with beautiful schools. I also feel that if we go as per this Motion, we will also be distributing wealth. We will also be creating employment in our counties. Currently, if we look at firms that supply school equipment to counties; you will find that we only have two or three companies from Nairobi. However, if counties are allowed to have resources, they can buy equipment for their schools and procurement would be done at the county level. That way, resources will effectively find their way into good use. Those who are not employed, particularly the youth will come up with companies, so that they participate in The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I stand here to support this Motion because of the following reasons. Today, this country has strong infrastructure, more so, in the area of education. If we had a Government, from the word go, that took down education to the people, many Kenyans would be very rich. However, you will find that it has become a normal thing for any businessman to be compelled by situations to contribute money to put up dispensaries and educational institutions. They also contributed towards provision of water and sanitation. If you reflect back and you will see where we have come from. You will see a very clear demonstration that the Government has never worked the way Kenyans have expected it to. I have contributed a lot of funds, not only in my area, county or the constituency I represented in the Tenth Parliament, but in almost every corner of this country. In certain circumstances, I have gone to areas where I could not tell whether the people I had gone to were human beings and whether they enjoyed any constitutional rights. For example, a child who has gone to school in Taita between Mwatate and Taveta, the border between Kenya and Tanzania, from Standard One to Standard Eight, walks to school without books, clothes and no classroom. This is happening in Ukambani, Luoland---

On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. Sen. Muthama has talked about children going to school without clothes. Is it in order for him to mislead this House that they go to school without clothes?

Sen. Muthama, could you elaborate on your allegation?

Madam Temporary Speaker, when you find a young girl aged between seven and ten walking in uniform that is stitched with sisal string and is torn, what do you call that? I did not use the word “naked.” I think I have substantiated that.

You said they walk without clothes!

Madam Temporary Speaker, look at the condition of those children. At the end of the day, after eight years, they have to face the same examinations that are given to children who are in Nairobi Primary School or Aga Khan Primary School. As if that is not enough, the same children – Sen. Karaba will agree with me – have no classrooms. Most children study under trees. Some of the classrooms do not have desks. The children sit on rocks and yet, the central Government has put a carpet in this Chamber. I feel a lot of pain when I see these things happening in this country. The same central Government is putting up expensive offices for Cabinet Secretaries, Principal Secretaries, V.I.P lounges at the airports and many other things. As if that is not enough, it is spending money on the supply of flowers to offices which cost millions of shillings. A Principal Secretary who uses such an office goes home over the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki: On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker.

What is it, Senate Majority Leader. What is out of order?

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. Is the Senator for Nyeri in order to speak about the merits of a Bill that was assented to by the President and that matter is before the court of law?

Senator for Nyeri, you are actually out of order on that issue because the matter is before a court of law.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I stand to support the Motion. It has come at the right time when we are devolving functions to the counties. Article 187 states:- “A function of power of Government at one level may be transferred to a government at the other level by agreement”. So, these functions which are mentioned in this Motion, I believe that the Governors and our Cabinet Secretaries will have to sit down and agree and see for themselves whether they have that capacity to handle these functions. If they do not have, they may ask for support from the national government in capacity building and even support staff. Article 187 (a) states:- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for this opportunity. I rise to support this Motion and say that the Government should devolve resources to county governments to ensure that schools in each county are fully equipped. A number of times, we have visited primary and secondary schools in our counties and all Senators know that the situation is not good. The reason the Senate is there is to ensure fairness in distribution of resources in terms of finances and structures. The Motion by Sen. Murkomen has come at the right time when this Senate should actually sit down and see to it that all schools in the country across the 47 counties record development, so that we give our children the right to compete irrespective of The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Since there is nobody else interested in contributing. I will ask the Mover to reply.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Madam Temporary Speaker, I moved this Motion on behalf of Sen. Murkomen. He is the expert and he has, through the Speaker, communicated that he would like to be here tomorrow to respond, I do not know what you would direct. But I would be happy if Sen. Murkomen himself was here to reply to this Motion. It is very dear to his heart. It is only fair that we do not take undue credit for the Motion.

Senate Majority Leader, you know that we have to follow due process at all times. Therefore, if you have that kind of request, just put it forward clearly and the Speaker will make the ruling. Make reference to the relevant Standing Order.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I want to refer to Standing Order No.97(1), which says:- “A Senator who wishes to postpone to some future occasion the further discussion of a question which has been proposed from the Chair may claim to move “That, the debate be now adjourned”, or, in Committee of the Whole “That, the Chairperson do report progress.”

Madam Temporary Speaker, I want to request the Chair, Under Standing Order No.97(1) to direct that the debate on this Motion be now adjourned so that Sen. Kipchumba Murkomen can reply to his Motion tomorrow. Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Well, you have now put forth your request procedurally and I make reference to the same Standing Order. I now put the Question. Hon. Senators, this does not affect counties, so those of you who are in the House are able to assent.

Hon. Senators, debate on this Motion is adjourned.

Hon. Senators, there being no further Business today, the Senate, therefore, stands adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday 26th June, 2013, at 9.00 a.m. The Senate rose at 6.06 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.