Hon. Senators, we have a quorum. So, we shall proceed with the orders of the day.

Hon. Senators, I have a short Communication to make. As you are aware, the sub-committee on the review of the Standing Orders has been considering the Senate Standing Orders with a view to proposing amendments to the Standing Orders. The sub-committee will shortly be presenting its final report to the Rules and Business Committee following which, pursuant to Standing Order No.244, the Rules and Business Committee shall table its report in the Senate. Hon. Senators, the sub-committee has received a number of proposals from Senators which have all been considered by the sub-committee. Hon. Senators who wish to make any further proposals are requested to present the proposals to the office of the Clerk on or before Friday, 11th October, 2013, so that these may be considered by the sub-committee before it concludes its report. Thank you.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on behalf of my colleague, Sen. John Munyes, the Senator for Turkana County, I beg to give notice of the following Motion which is directed to the Department of Environment, Water and Natural Resources:- THAT, aware that a tree species Prosopis juliflora and Prosopis

, locally known as “Mathenge” was introduced by foreign researchers to fight desertification in arid and semi-arid areas of northern Kenya; noting with concern that the spread of the species has now turned into an environmental hazard destroying grazing lands and pasture; recognizing that it also affects fishing grounds and water installations thus creating food insecurity and poverty in a majority of counties in arid and semi-arid areas of the country; the Senate urges the relevant government agencies both at the national and county levels to effectively control the spread of this tree species and also create economic benefits from the exploitation of this product.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to make a statement concerning a question which had been raised by the Senator for Marsabit County, Sen. Hargura. He wanted to know the total allocation for all the 47 counties for the last 20 years. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, a Statement on this issue was presented to the House. However, the Senate was not satisfied. To that effect, we requested the Ministry of National Treasury to respond to the issues raised. They indicated that the period of 20 years is a long time and a lot of things have happened. Within that time, some ministries have been merged while others have been scrapped. That means that the AIE holders are different. The Ministry officials said they require a lot of time to compile this information. They requested our Committee for an extension of time, say, three months, to compile the report.

Is Sen. Hargura here?

Yes.

Sen. Hargura, since you sought the Statement, you have heard from Sen. Mositet that officials in the Ministry of National Treasury are asking for an extension of three months. Do you have any problem with that?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, three months is a long time.

But you have waited for it for quite some time now, have you not?

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

You also understand the reasons that Sen. Mositet is asking for that extension. Are you willing to indulge him for the next three months to come up with a comprehensive statement? Since this issue is now the property of the House and considering the reasons he has given, it is important that we The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Two months, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Sen. Mositet, is two months enough?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the beauty of this matter is that Sen. Hargura has been a civil servant. So, when we talk about allocation to all Ministries in each county for a span of 20 years---

Sen. Mositet, let us strike a balance here. Sen. Hargura has waited for quite some time for this Statement. In fact, this is not just an issue that concerns him alone, but the whole House. Sen. Hargura, let us agree on having the Statement after three months. I do not think that we shall lose much by waiting for that period.

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Thank you. Next Order.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Yes, Sen. Kagwe.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise on a point of order to seek your indulgence. The Motion that is currently supposed to go to a Division is one that involves matters of counties. Given that hon. Senators are still trickling in, I seek your indulgence, in accordance with Standing Order No.51(3), to postpone the Division on this Motion to a later date. Indeed, I would like to seek the same indulgence for the other Motions that are supposed to be voted on now. There are about three Motions on the Order Paper. The same case will apply to all of them. If you indulge us on this, maybe, in the course of the day, we could proceed with the voting if we get the numbers.

Are you asking for this under Standing Order No.51(3) to move voting to the next day or later today?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, yes, in accordance to Standing Order No.51(3).

Sen. Kagwe, there are two issues here. First, you have made an application for your Motion. I do not think you can speak for the other Senators. I do not believe you have consulted them. Maybe, they want their Motions to move to the next stage. Shall we finish with yours?

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

It is directed that voting on Sen. Kagwe’s Motion proceed for voting tomorrow 4th October, 2013 during the afternoon session.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

We have to dispense with each agenda item on its own. So, I have finished with yours.

ADOPTION OF REPORT ON COUNTY GOVERNMENT CASH DISBURSEMENT SCHEDULE FOR FISCAL YEAR 2013/2014 THAT, pursuant to the provisions of Section 17 (7) of the Public Finance Management Act, the Senate adopts the report of the Standing Committee on Finance, Commerce and Economic Affairs on the County Government Cash Disbursement Schedule for Fiscal Year 2013/2014. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also rise on a point of order requesting that at your discretion, you use Standing Order No.51(3) to defer putting of Question on this Motion because it affects all counties. This is a very important Motion which will be used in the process of disbursing monies to the counties. Therefore, I request that you defer putting of the question to tomorrow.

Sen. Mositet, voting will be done tomorrow afternoon also.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Next Order. TRANSFER OF ALL KERRA FUNCTIONS TO COUNTY GOVERNMENTS THAT, aware that Schedule Four to the Constitution assigns the responsibility of construction and operation of national trunk roads to the national Government and that county transport including county roads are the responsibility of the county governments; acknowledging that the Kenya Rural Roads Authority (KeRRA) is mandated, under the Kenya Roads Act, 2007, to administer funds for the development, rehabilitation and maintenance of roads in constituencies which are roads within counties and which fall under Class D category and below; cognizant of the fact that there are already established KeRRA structures in each of Kenya’s 47 counties; the Senate urges the national Government to transfer all the functions of KeRRA to the county governments in order to ensure faster and more efficient delivery of services.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is also a Motion that concerns counties.

To be considered under Standing Order No.51(3) also?

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

It is so directed.

Thank you. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Hon. Senators, all the three Motions will be voted on Division tomorrow afternoon. Hon. Senators, before we proceed to the next Motion listed as Order No.12, I just want you to note that on the Order Paper, this is written as resumption of debate. That is because we were supposed to debate this Motion in the morning. However, we did not have a quorum in the morning. So, we are now going to debate it, starting now. The Motion has not even been moved. Sen. Mositet, I believe you are the one to move this Motion. ADOPTION OF REPORT ON IRREGULAR ALTERATION OF BUDGET ESTIMATES FOR TURKANA COUNTY FOR FISCAL YEAR 2013/14

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to move the following Motion:- THAT, the Senate adopts the report of the Standing Committee on Finance, Commerce and Economic Affairs on the investigations carried out by the Controller of Budget on the irregular alteration to the Budget Estimates for Turkana County for Fiscal Year 2013/14. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Speaker of Turkana County Assembly wrote to the Controller of Budget and the Senate regarding the budget estimates which they had passed and forwarded to the Controller of the Budget. The Senate, through my Committee, wrote to the Controller of Budget requesting for a thorough investigation to be done on this matter. The office of the Controller of Budget interviewed a number of people in Turkana County. That is the governor and the county executive officers. They also interviewed the county assembly members. Out of that exercise, they came up with a report. This is the report before this House. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, quite a number of things were noted. What was forwarded to the Controller of Budget is a budget which had not been passed by the county assembly. There was a huge variation. By the time they did this, the executive seemed not to have known that if they were to alter anything the assembly had passed, they were supposed to take the budget back to the assembly. There was an understated amount of about Kshs30,165,875 compared to what the county assembly had passed. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, quite a number of issues arose after the office of the Controller of Budget went through the budget. They found out that what caused this is as follows: (1) The capacity of the executive at the county level was low. They did not even know what they were supposed to do. As a result of this, it was noted that they need to build their capacity. As per the tables indicated, a number of the figures that were understated were affecting the county. The county assembly and the county executive seem not to have been operating well together. There has been a rift. The conclusion of this by the Office of the Controller of Budget is that some harmonization is required. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to second this Motion. I will be very brief since Sen. Kagwe is anxious to contribute. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

We will proceed under Standing Order No.98 (4). This is an open-ended debate. Everyone willing to contribute has 30 minutes and can utilise all of it, if they so wish.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I will utilise only three minutes. I rise to support the Motion in terms of the recommendations of the Committee which I happen to be a member. In doing so, I also wish to highlight that the recommendations made by the Controller of Budget, including investigating the Turkana Executive branch, and possibly pitting it to its ultimate conclusion, I seek the indulgence of the House, in the context that has been established by the previous speakers on this matter. The capacity of the Turkana County Government in terms of building this budget and the knowledge, thereof of the procedures as they run and stand, are highly questionable. Therefore, whereas we know in law that ignorance is no defence, we are starting something new. It is important for us to keep that in mind. It is not just the Turkana County Government that is wrong as we speak. Yesterday, the mandate of the Treasury, given by the Transition Authority to collect money on behalf of the county governments, particularly revenue at the county level, expired. As I speak, the Treasury is collecting money from the county level illegally. This is not how the Public Finance Management Act is designed. However, owing to the transition and the fact that if Treasury stopped collecting the money everything would go chaotic – counties do not have the capacity to do so – that is why we have situations where yes, the Constitution is there. Yes, the law is there, but people are not acting The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I stand to support the report of the Committee on the Turkana County Estimates that were altered and this was brought to the attention of the Controller of Budget. This report was submitted to the Finance, Commerce and Economic Affairs Committee and we looked at it. During our visits to the counties, we found out that counties were facing many challenges. One of the challenges was lack of capacity. Most counties do not understand how to prepare budgets. Turkana County, therefore, is not unique. We found many culprits. When we had a meeting with the Controller of Budget, she told us that they had rejected many county budgets since they had not been properly prepared. Therefore, they did not conform to what the Controller of Budget had set out for them to do. The other issue is that the Integrated Financial Management Information System (IFMIS) was not in place. Not all counties were connected. Therefore, in most counties, the servers were down. Connectivity was not really there. That was a major challenge. Before we adopt the report, I would like to refer you to page 14. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, page 13 sets out the budget that was prepared by the County Assembly and what they had approved. If you look at the variance or the alterations that were made, for instance, with regard to Transport, Roads, Housing and Public Works, this was reduced by Kshs7,700,000. When you look at the County Assembly Budget, you will see that this was increased by Kshs449,663,498. Under the Office of the Governor, the County Assembly had approved Kshs425 million. However, this was reduced to Kshs175 million. Under Finance and Planning the budget approved The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I will start by giving the highest recommendation to the Speaker of the County Assembly of Turkana for being hawkeyed as contained in a letter that is annexed to this report. The Speaker pointed out that the original budget as passed had been interfered with. I am hoping that this debate is being transmitted live. If it is not, I hope that the HANSARD proceedings will be forwarded to all county assemblies so that they use this as a precedence to remind them that there is no provision, under the law, for the county executive, governor or the county treasury to veto a budget that has been approved by the county assembly. I would like us, as Members of the Senate, to create deliberate and strong partnerships with county assemblies because, unlike my predecessors who have spoken here, we are saying that this is a mistake because we are in the process of learning with regard to the devolution process. However, I want to differ. This could be a calculated way to slowly start devolving corruption. Why do I say this? I say this because if you look at the functions that were altered; you will see alterations in the office of the governor, pastoral programmes, tourism and education. One thing is constant about all of them. If you go to pages 9 and 10, you will be sad to note that when the County Assembly of Turkana voted on the issue of Pastoral Economy and Fisheries, they wanted Kshs310 million for development. However, somebody in the office of the governor said that they were not doing the right thing. They said that they did not need development and reduced this to only Kshs100 million. Similarly, they wanted Kshs200 million to be used for development, but the same person who was changing, again, slashed it to only Kshs100 million for development. This means that in the mindset of the executive of the county government of Turkana or precisely the person who was engineering these alterations, he wants to frustrate The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for this opportunity to make my contribution to this Motion. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, from the outset, I support this Motion and the recommendations made therein. First of all, let me laud the action taken by the county representatives from the County of Turkana for raising the red flag when they saw this. I dare say that other assemblies around this Republic should copy the work that has been done by the members of the county assembly of Turkana. This is because in my own mind, I believe that it is possible that there are other counties in Kenya which might have done even worse things than what we are looking at about Turkana County. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this country has a culture of altering documents. You will recall that during the drafting of this Constitution that is in place, the final document, the Constitution of the Republic of Kenya, was sent to the Government Printer, after exhaustive discussions by all the stakeholders, including the Committee of Experts and the Select Committee on the Constitution, and a final document agreed upon. When this final draft was sent to the Government Printer, it was discovered that somebody went there and altered certain provisions of the Constitution; a very grave matter. So, again, now we are seeing this happening in the good County of Turkana. I think it is possible that something similar has happened in other counties, only that there have been no people as sharp as the members of the county assembly of Turkana to discover. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this action sends a very strong signal to all governors, that they must treat the deliberations of county assemblies seriously. Whatever decisions are taken, whether it is budgetary or other laws by the county assemblies, they must be taken seriously and implemented as passed by the peoples’ representatives. Here we are talking of representation. The people of Turkana, represented by their MCAs, passed a budget, and then, someone sitting in the governor’s office takes the role of the assembly to alter figures, against the wishes of the peoples’ representatives. I am looking at this in a very serious manner, just like we can make a law here and send it for assent, and before it is assented to, somebody makes alterations. Is that not a serious matter? Indeed, it is The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the recommendations made by this Committee and to also state that this matter comes very close to my heart because you may have noticed that the County Assembly of Makueni has passed a budget of Kshs975 million from a proposed Kshs500 million. In fact, this morning, the Members of the County Assembly of Makueni and the Governor were meeting the Controller of Budget in order to establish whether or not the County The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this report is just a random sample of what is likely to be happening in very many counties in this country. All that has been done is a lot of hiding in transparency. The powers the governors purport to be wielding will cause a lot of foot sores everywhere they would want to step without thinking about the implications of the Constitution and the law on matters that they command. What you see in this report as put forward by the Controller of Budget and also as recommended to us by our own Senate Committee on Finance, Commerce and Economic Affairs---. This is what I would term in summary as total mischief by both the office of the Controller of Budget and the executive office in Turkana County. On page 16 if you look at the increases vis-à-vis the decreases, this information that is tabulated on this pamphlet really tells you that the governor knew what he was doing. There is no excuse here that there were mechanisms not in place as given to us by the Controller of Budget on page 19 (2) where she is thinking of non-inclusion of additional votes. There was an inclusion of additional votes intentionally. The Controller of Budget says that Turkana County did not have a Budget Officer. Whose mistake is that? Is it a calculated move by the office of the Controller of Budget to have some counties fail, by not availing the relevant officers in the sensitive budgetary process? God knows what the intention was, not forgetting that Turkana is one of the marginalized, hitherto considered backward places in this country. What was the intention? That is what should be investigated. It was a calculated move by the governor’s office to either interfere with the budget process or to intentionally just increase the amount of money that he wanted in his office, to the detriment of other departments in that county. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this shows that there is need for us to review the laws on the functions of the Senators. If the law mandated the Senator to look at the final draft of the Budget before it is presented to the office of the Controller of Budget, I am sure this would not have arisen because the Senator would have listened to the complaints of the House and compared it with the information and records that have been put forward as generated by the office of the Governor. We do not have that power. Indeed, I wonder how many of us in this House have even seen the budgets of their counties. I tried to ask for the drafts, but I was never given until I gave up. I had no constitutional mandate to force them to give them to me. This is one of the areas that really need to be looked at in law. I always keep on saying that the Constitution as was passed had a lot of lacunas that need to be looked at, especially so in this area of financial management. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the law needs to be revised totally to make sure that a Senator has a bigger say on the final examination of the Budget presented to the office of the Controller of Budget. Since we were passing that Budget just to please an individual’s legacy, then here we are and we have to accept it and work with it. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me the opportunity to support this Motion. I want to recap what my colleagues have said and go beyond what has been said; that this is not a simple matter. It goes to the very root of the system of government that we have established. Where matters of this nature are involved, we, as Senators, must go beyond partisanship, look at each and every case on the basis of facts under law as presented to us. The Governor of Turkana is a friend and colleague. I have worked with him and know that he is a responsible person. So, I would not in any way want to cast aspersions on his part or on the part of the County of Turkana. Looking back at what we have fought for in terms of creating this new constitutional dispensation and also ensuring that the systems of government project accountability, transparency and openness in the management of public affairs, we cannot sit back and call a spade a small spoon, but take the case as it is. To that extent, I want to agree with Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale that this is not a partisan matter and the Senate should pronounce itself strongly and clearly in respect of this Motion. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the office of the Controller of Budget set out to carry out investigations, but did not do so. Instead, they shied away. Also the Parliamentary Committee shied away because the issue in the report by the Controller of Budget as found on page 6, No.22 (c) says that the Committee should determine whoever is responsible for the alteration, if any. In answering that question and making that determination, the office of the Controller of Budget found the alteration, but shied away from determining that question and recommended that there should be further investigations. The office of the Controller of Budget must also be taken to task because there are materials before them that would have enabled that office to determine that question. We must ask them why they refused to determine that question. They are a constitutional and independent office which has powers which we do not have. They can conduct this investigation, call for documents, and summon those who are responsible. Therefore, to say that some of those responsible were not available is to run away from a constitutional task that they were given, particularly when they were doing the report with a view of passing it on to Parliament. The office of the Controller of Budget works under the guidance of Parliament and the Senate. Our Committee also shied away from determining that question. Allow me to read the recommendations on the last page. It says:- “That the Budget presented to the Office of the Controller of Budget was not the one approved by the County Assembly. The Committee recommends that further investigations be carried out.” Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, here is the Office of the Controller of Budget recommending that further investigations be carried out. The Committee also recommended that further investigations should be carried out. Probably, while approving this report, this Senate will recommend that further investigations be carried out. So, in a nutshell, we will end up doing nothing. There will be much talk, but no substance. If you want to look at the seriousness of this matter; by making those alterations, on the face of The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Yes!

We cannot run away from it. If we want to deal with this thing in Turkana, we must compare it to what happened at the Westgate Mall. Therefore, the whole intelligence community must be put to account. If I was occupying those positions, all those five characters or so, should not be there. They should have gone like yesterday. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Sen. Orengo. Before I call the next speaker, Sen. Orengo---

Please, sit down. I saw who stood up. Sen. Orengo, if you look at this report under the Motion that we are currently debating, we are approving the Report of the Committee to which is attached the report and recommendations of the Controller of Budget; right? But if you look page 6 of the Committee’s Report – Revision of Budget Estimates, Item No.1--- Are you with it?

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Something is missing; it says:- “Investigations established that there were alterations approved by the Turkana County Assembly” I think the words “to the budget” are missing there. So, since that is the report we are debating, we cannot let it go the way it is. Chairman of the Committee, I hope you are going to have it amended before we approve it. Sen. Haji.

Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want to support this Motion because I think it is necessary for us, as Senators, to do everything possible to assist the county assemblies and devolution to take root in a proper manner. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, first and foremost, I want to congratulate the Controller of Budget as well as the County Assembly of Turkana. I am a bit confused as to whether it is the county assembly which discovered this anomaly or whether it is the Controller of Budget. So, if it is the County Assembly Speaker who discovered this mistake, I think it is very wrong to say that Turkana County has no capacity. They have proven that they have the capacity since many of their speakers indicated that this could have happened in many counties. I do not doubt that at all. We need to commend the Speaker and his assembly for taking up this matter with the Controller of Budget, so that it can be rectified. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, what does this indicate? I think it indicates that although we are underrating some of the county assemblies, others are up to the task. All they need is to be assisted to carry out their mandate. I want to agree with my colleagues here that copies of the record of our discussion of this Motion in the Senate should be passed on to the county assemblies as well as to the governors. They must know that these things cannot be allowed to continue happening if devolution is to take root. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with due respect, I think counties lack the capacity and capability of doing their responsibility, particularly on budget making. What we know is that the Transition Authority (TA) attached some officers to help county assemblies to settle down together with the governors. They were particularly given clerks to the county assembly and also an administrator to assist the governor in doing the job of The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Sen. Abdirahman.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I stand to support the Report by the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Economic Affairs. I want also to thank the Speaker of Turkana County Assembly who is the source of this information. He has done a great job for the people of Turkana and for Kenyans in general because these alterations, as hon. Orengo put it, amount to abuse of office. I was trying to run through the main Report of the Controller of Budget and when I looked at page 16 on the increases and decreases, I realized there was an increase on the allocation of Kshs237,750,00 to the Office of the Governor, and the allocation on Finance and Planning increased by 144,539,342. There was a decrease, if you look down there, under the County Assembly, of Kshs548,463,000. The budget for Energy, Water and Environment also follows. There is a clear indication that, at least, the office of the governor had a hand in this. I do not think that can be left to go like that. People must take certain responsibilities for certain actions that do not fit the aspirations and vision of the people who had suffered for long. This is the only opportunity that many people, particularly those who have claimed to be marginalised for many years, can reap the benefits or dividends of devolution which is a God sent opportunity for many people. I also want to say that what we are doing, through our Committee on Finance, Commerce and Economic Affairs or even as the Senate is to assert our authority in terms of performing our oversight role. I have listened to a number of Senators. Most of them have said that they did not get copies of the budget estimates for their counties. We are not involved in the budget preparations. However, we can only oversight what we know, what we can access and what we have gone through. This is an opportunity for us to assert our authority, as the Senate, the highest decision making organ, with regard to counties. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir for this opportunity. First of all, I have been listening and have gone through the document which is in front of us. I have seen that among the three teams; the Controller of Budget, our Committee and the Speaker of the Turkana County Assembly, my respect goes to the Speaker of the Turkana County Assembly. This is because he is the only person who raised an alarm. When he reported this case, it was taken casually. It was not taken in a serious manner the way it should have. He reported something that was wrong. However, those who received this alarm took it casually. Our Committee did one thing which was to copy what the Controller of Budget had said. This is a very serious matter. The Committee also assumed that the whole Senate would go with them. I think we must change this attitude. Any Committee that gives a report to this House must have dealt with the report seriously and must know that they are presenting to the appointing authority. We are the appointing authority of these Committees. Therefore, we would like to see proper investigations being conducted. We should have been told that investigations were carried out, probably, as far as identifying the person who altered the figures. However, we are putting the Speaker of Turkana County Assembly in a very serious political situation. This could be used by others. They could say that it was propaganda by the Speaker of the County Assembly because nobody was pinned down and no one was found to be responsible for doing whatever happened. We took for granted that what the Auditor-General had said was okay. Our Committee just took the Report of the Controller of Budget. They did not care. The Controller of Budget knew that the Committee would have no time or would not be interested in the looking at the report and that it would end up at the Senate. I would like to support what hon. Orengo has said. Unless we establish who did what, we cannot pretend that we are doing the right thing. We want to know who did the alterations. We are accusing the office of the governor. What facts do we have that this was done by that office? The office of the governor has people who work for him. He should deny that he did not do this and explain to the county assembly who did it. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Would I be in order to commend the most senior legislator in this House, Sen. G.G, for suggesting---

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Are you on a point of order or point of information?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am coming to that. This information---

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Let me know clearly. Are you standing on a point of information? We have given you permission on a point of information and so, carry on with the information.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the information is that I think the Senator is quite in order to suggest that we should know who has done this, but not The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): I do not know whether that was really a point of information. Continue!

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we are together. I do not quite understand what the hon. Senator wanted to say. Maybe he held back what he wanted to say. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, but I want to repeat what I said in a very short statement. We want this matter to be taken back to the Committee. Let us pass this Motion next time, when we know that the truth has been discovered and, therefore, also know who committed this crime. Let us not forget that we are dealing with political institutions. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, Turkana County Assembly is a political body. They have got their political enemies as we do have ours. Therefore, we want to clear the name of the speaker and governor. We want to see that the county assembly did its job, but somebody somewhere, in the executive committee, decided to commit this crime. Why should we cover him? Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I oppose this Motion and kindly request the hon. Senators who will speak after me to also oppose it.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for this opportunity to contribute to this Motion. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, from the outset, I hesitantly support this Motion. First, it is because part of the Report contains a statement that says:- “There were challenges in getting information.” Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it, therefore, means that all the information regarding this investigation was not found. I do not know how much of that information was not found. It could be a lot more information than we already have. Therefore, that alone makes me a bit skeptical about supporting this Motion as it is. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, secondly, although devolution involves a lot of other things, actually it rings around finances. Therefore, counties that are going to mishandle their finances, even if they do whatever else, are not going to succeed. Therefore, it is very important that when we are dealing with an issue like this, we are cognizant of some of the issues that we think are small but, in fact, very important. Therefore, I really think that we should look at this Report closely. Should it be necessary that we get some more information, then we can ask for it. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there is a body called the Transition Authority, which was to provide capacity for the incoming county treasurers or officers to provide the information. Although it faced significant challenges, I think that it did its best. I say so because some of these problems that we are seeing now, are really not as a result of lack of capacity. We think these errors or mistakes are there deliberately. If they were not deliberate, when the speaker of Turkana County Assembly found out that there was an error, it would have been so easy to go back to the executive committee or whoever caused the error and correct it. Therefore, these errors which we are seeing here are not simply errors for lack of capacity. They are deliberate and intended to serve an interest. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this Report. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I think that we all know that it is the responsibility of the county governments to prepare budgets. The Report that is with us today was not done by the relevant Committee, but the Controller of Budget. So, as much as I would want to support this Motion, I will not do it because of a few reasons. The very reason that makes me not support it, is because it is incomplete.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Sen. Chelule, you have to be explicit. Are you supporting this Motion or not?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I do not support the Motion, because it is incomplete. This Report that is tabled before us today was not prepared by the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Economic Affairs, but by the Controller of Budget. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there is a recommendation that was done by the relevant Committee. This is recommendation No.6 which talks about investigation. The relevant Committee is alleging that further investigation should be done. Who should do the investigation if it is not this Committee? This Committee represents this Senate, yet it The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I rise to oppose the Motion as it is. This is because this Report is very inconclusive. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I want to refer to the role of the Senate, even from Articles 96 and 97. The Senate has the mandate of oversighting and protecting the counties and county governments. I know that the Constitution does not really itemize from whom we protect the counties, but I think that we need to even protect the counties from themselves. It will be a failure on our part if we just adopt this Report, the way it is, as reported by the Office of the Controller of Budget, and leave it at that. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, if you look at the Report of the Controller of Budget on page 16, which is very scaring, on the increases and decreases, you will be shocked to realize that Turkana is where we are talking about natural resources and the fact that we have found oil and water in the area. That has been decreased. It is actually the second item on the decreases. It has been decreased by Kshs60 million whereas the expenditure for the office of the Governor has been increased by Kshs237 million which is about four times. This is the decrease in allocations to the energy, environment and natural resources category. It is not enough to say that we need further investigation. If you look at that Report, Part VI, they say that it has been established that laws have been bent, surpassed and the PMF Act has been ignored. We are saying that we are on a learning curve but it is not an excuse for anyone to hide under that and become mischievous and commit a crime. Punitive measures must be taken. This being our first Report on this matter, we have 46 other counties that will learn from this precedent that we will set here. If we set the wrong precedent, it will be very hard for us to deal with the rest of the counties. We should not adopt this Report because we shall be failing as a House. We hope that the Standing Committee on Finance, Commerce and Economic Affairs will sit down and not just present to us the raw copy of the Report of the Controller of Budget but do a thorough report. Someone has to take responsibility. First of all, there is the personal responsibility. We must know what really happened. I know that we have had such scenarios in this country where certain documents are taken to the Government Printer and overnight, they are altered. This was a lesson to this country and we should not let it trickle to the counties. It has to be stopped immediately. We should know where the alterations took place and the consequences accompanying that action. I know that the integrity chapter of the Constitution is very clear. We are hoping that the Committee will be able to summon these officers; the Governor with the executive committee and fish out the answers. This must be treated as a very urgent matter because this precedent must be set right. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Hon. Senators, before I call upon the next speaker, you should make sure your mobile phones are switched off because they are interrupting the proceedings of the Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this important Motion knowing that we are in a new dispensation where we have the devolved governments and these are some of the problems we should expect. We all acknowledge that we are new to this but I do not think some of the issues which are being raised are because of that. From what happened between the executive and the county assembly, there is a problem of the budget making process at the county level. We have a case where the executive submits its budget, the county assembly discusses it and changes it. From there, the office of the Controller of Budget, from which this Report has originated has not given us the mechanisms of what happens after that. That is the one thing which is missing. If the County Assembly does not agree with the executive committee, what mechanisms have been put in place to deal with that? If you look at this Report, the contention was actually between the budget of the Governor’s office and the county assemblies. That is where the reduction and increase is coming up. If you look at the Report, it says that the executive actually prepared the budget of the county assembly which was faulted. It states very clearly that it was the Clerk to the assembly who was supposed to have prepared the budget. This Report might not be addressing the real issues. It might not assist us to solve this situation. It is only that this Report is about Turkana, but I tend to think that it is a widespread issue and there is need for the Controller of Budget to give us a report on how the other 46 counties performed. The reports are supposed to be published and publicized but even in our own counties we are not sure of which budget is being implemented because we have not seen the budgets that have been submitted. So, I think this is a widespread situation which goes hand in hand with the fact that what the Governor submits is not what the county assembly has approved. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the Controller of Budget should be able to tell us the mechanism of going about this when they disagree. Was there a ceiling for the county assembly budget? That is where the contention is. You can see that they were given about Kshs600 million and the budget that was submitted by the county assembly on 3rd May, 2013 was Kshs645 million. The County Assembly went ahead and changed their budget to Kshs1.2 billion. This shows that they introduced their own budget and that is where the reduction came from. I think there are issues with regard to the budget making process which the Controller of Budget can assist us by bringing it out in the Report. Then there is the issue of the two arms of Government at that level and how they relate because there is the issue of who makes the budget and who approves. How does the county assembly make its own budget and then approve it? This will enable us weed out the issue of county assembly members voting for themselves what ought to have been approved by the Salaries and Remuneration Committee (SRC) in terms of car grants, mortgages and ward allocations because that seems to be what the Governor is trying to remove from the budget, although unprocedurally. The guidelines must be very clear The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Do you accept to be informed?

Yes, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I would like to agree with the engineer who is my good friend that we should not be too punitive at this stage, but also inform him that there is nothing that will hurt if the Senate then calls the Governor and his county executive to explain what really took place and then at that stage, we forgive them.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it is actually necessary to get it from those who committed the mistake with a view to making them learn and then others could learn from them. However, this process should be made very clear. Maybe the process is not very clear and that is why after his budget was altered, he thought there was no other The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me a chance to contribute to this debate. There are many issues that have been raised in the report and I think some of them are excuses. The question we should ask ourselves is whether the officers, that is, the county assembly and the executive knew what they were doing when they did what they did. The answer to that is, yes. Each one of them was conscious. If they were able to pinpoint and make amendments in certain areas, then they knew what they were doing. It was deliberate they were trying to address certain situations. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is true that county assemblies do not have capacities in certain aspects but on this particular issue, having prepared the Budget and then amended a second one and submitted it, definitely, it was not an issue of capacity. Even the issue of the “poor” Integrated Financial Management Information System (IFMIS) has been dragged in. I do not know what part IFMIS played to amend the figures. Some of us have done budgets before when there were no computers. We used to type it and if you go wrong, you re-type it manually. In those times, there were no errors. After the computers came in, we started assigning errors and blaming it on the computer. I think we should spare IFMIS from blame. Counties have new officers and the county assembly members are new. Some of them do not know the budgeting process. The executive is new and I support the idea that all of them must undergo crash programmes to train them on all aspects of legislation and also financial management, including budgeting. That should have been done. That was the work of the Transition Authority (TA) but I do not know whether that has been done. This problem cuts across all counties. I am not saying that amendments have been done in all counties but problems are there and something should be done. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the roles of the two arms of government in the counties must be understood by both sides in the context of the Constitution. What does the Constitution say? There could also be areas like we have seen in this House where the Constitution may not be clear or there is a lacuna that may need to be looked at. I want to believe that what has happened here is not a question of bad working relations between the county assembly and the executive. In any case, the majority of the executive were just appointed the other day by the county assembly. So, it may not be exactly that. The problem could be the system itself; how do they share the revenue that is available? What are the mechanisms and what are the percentages? For instance, what is the role of the county assembly in the budget making process? We could as well be having a situation here where the governor and his team of executives have an idea of how to spend the money but the county assembly says that they are the final authority and have the final say. I want to believe that there is much we are not being told in this report. The thing that is clear is that the two arms of government are not agreeing. If they are not agreeing, then what is the mechanism of that dispute resolution? If the executive disagrees with the county assembly, what is the recourse? What is the role of the Senate? Can the Senate be an arbitrator? Is it provided for in law The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, thank you very much for allowing me to contribute to this Motion. I want to oppose the Motion because of the mode in which it appears. If this Motion is passed, it is going to set a bad precedent to other counties and we are going to scare the remaining 46 counties as they start off the devolution process. This is a defeatist kind of Motion where we are going to be judged wrongly. We all know that we are supposed to be overseers of counties and make sure that the money which is allocated to various counties is well budgeted for and the budgets are up to standard. We are also supposed to make sure that the money is spent prudently. This is, therefore, tantamount to pointing an accusing finger at the Senate that we are unable to control the county assemblies. This is one example. So, for us to single out Turkana as the first county which is going to be a victim for making such a big variance is a clear indication that we are also lost. We should have The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! You are protected. Be orderly, please. Continue, Sen. Karaba.

So, what I was saying, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, is that we have inadequacy of manpower in manning some of these offices, and that is the problem with the counties. It is the problem of the Senate. So, if the Senate is unable to man offices in such places; if we are even unable to get there and see--- I do not know how even these people go there. I am told that it is a problem to go to Turkana, and even to fly there, I am told that you have to fly through Uganda to get to Turkana.

If you cannot fly Senators there, how then do you expect to get a good report if we cannot go there and see it for ourselves? So, I would have expected the---

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): What is not in order? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, is the Senator in order to mislead the House that to fly to Turkana, you have to go through Uganda, when he knows that there are regular Kenya Airways (KQ) and Fly540 flights that go to Lokichoggio? Is he in order?

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, that is his route and preference.

For security reasons, that is the route followed by the planes and even the vehicles, which have to go to Uganda before you get to Turkana. I think it is true.

Sen. G.G. Kariuki, who was the Minister for Internal Security those days can agree with me that to get to Turkana from Nairobi, you have to drive to---

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Let us go to another point, otherwise I will use Standing Order No.1 on you for repeating what is irrelevant.

Which will be too bad, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, because for me, I am forthright and I am trying to articulate a point which is very serious here. What I am trying to articulate, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, is that the Committee here picked on a county which is so disadvantaged---

On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

I do not need to be informed.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): What is not in order, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, with all due respect to Sen. Karaba, is he in order to mislead the House by giving the impression that a decision was made to choose and land on Turkana when the truth is that a complaint was raised by the Speaker of the County Assembly of Turkana – and a copy of that letter is contained in this report – and it is on the strength of that particular complaint that the Office of the Controller of Budget then decided to investigate Turkana County? Could he declare whether he has read the report or not instead of misleading the House?

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): You have been challenged, Sen. Karaba. Have you read the report?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, you are aware that I have read through it. I am even referring you to page 6, which is only here; because I have seen the variances which are already indicated and it is something that I suspect never happened, because if it happened, then the Senator for Turkana should have spoken about it ahead of the report coming here. In any case, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, what will happen is that somebody can lie to the Senate. That is what we are discovering in the counties as we interact more with the Members of County Assemblies (MCAs). What is happening is that if a speaker in some of those counties is not in good books with the MCAs or even The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Yes, Sen. Okong’o?

Are you informing or---

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Sit down, Sen. Karaba!

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, is my good friend, Mwalimu Karaba, in order to cast aspersions on the Senator for Turkana by saying that he never played his role correctly on this issue?

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): I think Sen. Karaba has done no mistake. He just made a comment that he wishes he was here to shed more light.

Yes; that is what I said; and a slip of the tongue can be excused.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, Sen. Karaba! Are you accepting that you---

No---

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Then withdraw and apologize.

No, I am not apologizing because it was not intended.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Sen. Karaba, withdraw and apologize.

Over what? Over the remarks?

Okay; I withdraw and apologize. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, as we go on, we are going to have these cases coming to the Senate more often, and that is why we need to be more careful when we make a decision on this case. That is why I am saying; that from my point of view, that if I was the one to decide on what should happen, I would oppose. I rest there.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Sen. Karaba, are you opposing or supporting?

I am opposing.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Sen. Okong’o.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Much has been said by my colleagues about this Motion. From the outset, I am going to oppose this Motion by The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Motion be amended as follows. (a) By deleting the word “adopt” in the first line and inserting the word “notes” in place thereof. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me this chance to second the amendment as moved by the Senator for West Pokot. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, according to the Report of this Committee, I want to believe that these are the recommendations of the Controller of Budget and not those of the Committee. This is because the Report just highlights what has already been done by the Controller of Budget. We need the Committee to come up with its own recommendations. The Constitution gives this House powers to oversight the county governments on matters devolution. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I would be surprised if I am told that the Uasin Gishu County Government does not have the capacity to make budgets, yet it has people who have graduated with Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) and Masters degrees. This Report says that some counties do not have capacity; that we lack human resource to prepare budgets. I do not believe that is the case. I think that one of the core functions of the county assemblies is to ensure that they come up with budgets, because this is what will run the counties in terms of development and recurrent expenditure throughout the year. The budget will always determine what should be done. But when we say that the county governments have no capacity to handle issues of budgets, it raises a lot of concern. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation for further investigation to be done, I want to request that the Committee of the Senate revisits it. They should go back and try to give this House the right information. There is no other person who will do this job apart from this Committee. We do not expect the governor or somebody else to do this. The Committee, mandated by the Constitution, under the Standing Orders, should investigate and bring to this House accurate information regarding issues of expenditure. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the Senate may not actually do the oversight function. This is because if we have a board, as proposed in a Bill by one of the Senators, The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I rise to support the amended Motion. Allow me to draw the attention of the House to a quote from the letter that was written by Hon. Geoffrey Iyanae Kaituko, Member of the County Assembly of Turkana and Speaker of that Assembly to the Controller of Budget. He says:- “Finally, Members of the Turkana County Assembly, if necessary, are prepared to pursue all possible avenues which include, but are not limited to, litigation in ensuring that only the approved budget estimates which were done in accordance with the law are funded”. If this is what this Speaker of this county assembly is saying – a very patriotic Kenyan – it means that if this Senate does not do what many Senators have proposed here, it will end up being an indictment on the Senate that we are not capable of protecting our county assemblies, our county governments and the people of our counties. Therefore, I want to call upon the Chairman of the Committee and the entire membership of the Committee to take it within their stride the fact that we are recommitting this matter to them. As they do so, I want to specifically ask them to look at the following points: First, as you call these people to come before you, use the investigations of the Controller of Budget as a template or a working document that will help you to interrogate them further. Look at what they are saying in that Report on page 11(7). They are saying that a whopping Khs5.2 billion meant for development expenditure and a whopping Kshs2.9 billion meant for recurrent expenditure was brought to the Controller of Budget for recommendation by the executive committee in the Governor’s office and when the Controller of Budget made inquiries from the Members of the County Assembly, they established that neither their input nor their approval was sought in those alterations. That is a serious statement on corruption. It is a serious statement on impunity. It is a serious statement on where we are headed to. We are headed to creating 47 African big men who will be saying “I am the boss”. In fact, these days, I hear some of them saying that they are the Presidents of the counties. We must refuse that as the Senate. When we were young people like Sen. Melly, waging wars at the university, we were not doing it for any other reason; we were doing it so that we could fight poverty in the rural areas. We were doing it so that we could cause development to go to all the corners of Kenya and we are not going to do it if this is going to be the start that we shall entertain. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Has he allowed you to hold brief for him?

May I rephrase and say that regarding the suggestion by a contributor earlier that Sen. Munyes should have known this, we should all know that probably what has happened there could as well be happening in our counties. Maybe our speakers could be colluding with the governors. I want to ask President Uhuru’s Government to make sure that they fund the Office of the Auditor-General. He should be given equipment, human resources and money to make sure that he audits the 47 counties thoroughly so that this information can then come to us. I want to urge the Speaker of the Senate to move with speed in the amendment of Standing Orders that we hope will bring in oversight committees namely, the County Investments Committee and the County Accounts Committees so that they can be doing oversight for us. I am sure if they were there, they would have analysed these figures one by one and the people responsible would not get away with it. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I want to end my contribution on this issue by again drawing the attention of Members of the Committee to page 16 of the report. Allow me to read:- “An analysis of the revised budget estimates shows that the county executive committee budgeted for the county assembly which is contrary to the provisions of Section 129(3) of the Public Finance Act.” If you allow the county executive committee to budget for themselves and then go on and budget for the other areas including an independent arm like the county assembly, then you are breaching the constitutional principle of separation of powers. What will happen then is that the county assembly will now be the good old councillors who used to The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): This is an amended Motion and all of you have an opportunity to contribute.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I want to thank you once again for allowing me to make some statements on this amendment. I think we have done a credible job in this House today because we refused to allow the Senate to be used as just a passing cloud. I want to congratulate all the Senators who have supported this amendment and also those who rejected the Motion as it was. It is true that we were going to pass something which was not clear. Our Committee which is supposed to be vetting the county government on our behalf failed in their duties this time by assuming that they will come and tell us what to do. I am happy that when I was talking to the Vice-Chairman, he was equally very concerned with what has been reported but he had no choice other than moving the Motion because it was agreed upon by the Committee unanimously. Therefore, we want to go a little further and say as follows: If the governor, the speaker and the clerk connive to take Kshs1 billion from their committee--- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage: Before you continue, Sen. G. G. Kariuki, you made a remark that the Vice-Chairman of that Committee came here just because the other Committee Members had adopted that report; then he should have registered his dissent. Otherwise, he should not make that statement because he is part of the whole thing.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I said that but it was not public and it was not the property of the House. That was a private discussion between me and him and, therefore, does not warrant to be treated as if it is a statement which was made.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Then withdraw that statement that the Vice-Chairman made.

I said he had no choice because it was unanimous for him to bring it here. Not even the Chairman has the choice if the Committee decides to bring the Motion here.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Sen. G. G. Kariuki who is my senior, knows very well that a committee is controlled by the Chair through a vote. So, if it is true that in this report, they were left with no choice but to bring it here, could he substantiate, whose decision it was for this report to come here if it was not the Chair? I can see that the report is signed by the Chair. Could he substantiate?

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Sen. G.G. Kariuki, could you withdraw or substantiate?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am being required to withdraw something which is very clear to me.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, Sen. G.G. Kariuki! You see now you are arguing with the Chair.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I apologize.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Withdraw and apologize.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, Sir, I withdraw and apologize.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Thank you very much. Continue.

What I am trying to say here is that the decision was made by the Committee which is appointed by this House. Committees always have the Chair and the Members, and my assumption is that it was unanimous.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): We heard that; just continue. Do not revisit that issue again.

Okay. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, what I am trying to say is that we have to be extremely careful when we are dealing with the new Government. We have had the central Government for many years and we have not managed to control the kind of corruption which is taking place in the national Government. The national Government has now been devolved and we have about 47 county governments. If we are not capable of dealing with the national Government to stop corruption, which has been spread all over, we have to be more energetic to manage and to make sure that corruption is not going to be spread all over the counties. So, the important thing here is that we do not want to appear as if we want to manage the county governments, because that is not our role. In fact, even the board we The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, Sen. Orengo! You had all the time outside to discuss---

Yes; he just came in and started---

Anyway, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, that is your role to discipline him, not me. But what I am saying here, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, is that let us appear – not just appear – let us be seen to be above these county governments because we are there to assist them to succeed in the new dispensation; that is our job. We should not to try and appear as if we want to manage their day to day business. So, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, no one in this Senate would want to be seen as if the Senate is being controlled by a certain force outside the Senate. Equally, county governments are political bodies and, therefore, they should also be given the respect they deserve. They need to be supported by the Senate to enable them do the job they are mandated to do. The only thing we should be concerned with is when they try to get out of their mandate or what the Constitution says. We need to exercise that mandate without fear or favour, and that is the only way our people will know that the Senate is there for a purpose, because most people today have not been able to understand. What if a Senator does not have the money to give the public like in the form of the Constituencies Development Fund (CDF) and they are not also there in the counties, where billions of shillings have been sent from the national Government? Unless we appear to be managing that money from here to make sure that something is done and we are associated with that kind of management, it is going to be very difficult for the Senate. That is why I am saying, from the word go, that what we did by trying to ask that this Motion be amended, I think we did the right thing. It was a very good thing for this House that we had this opportunity to talk about the powers that we do have. We are not going to be used either by the county governments or by any Committee of this House. This House will remain supreme for all the Committees, because that is the only way we can be seen as if we are here for a purpose. So, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, just imagine in Laikipia, for example, the county governor, the chief secretary or the Clerk and the speaker himself, if they decide to take this kind of money and they agree in-house that that they will take Kshs500 million, who is capable of discovering that among us? There is no Senator, Controller and Auditor- General or even the Government or Government officer who will be able to investigate the county, the way I know this country has invested in corruption. None of the people will be able to do that; and that Kshs500 million will just go and disappear. Our duty here The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Controller of Budget.

Yes, the Controller of Budget. The guy did not do any job; any person would have done it---

A lady!

Whether it is a lady or a man---

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, Sen. Orengo! Please, desist from doing that.

Any person, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, would have done it; you do not have to become an accountant to detect this mistake. So, actually, there was no job done by anybody except the Speaker of the County Assembly; the person who just said there is a problem here and I am sending it to my seniors. He knows for sure that the Senate is their senior, and that is why he reported the matter to us; by writing to the Controller of Budget and also copying it to the Speaker of the National Assembly. He understood that he had to inform the people who are in charge of the county governments, and that is exactly what he did. But we sort of let him down; we just collected the figures and told him to go ahead. Supposing now the same county assembly sits down and says: “Why were you accusing the county executives, is it, may be, because you are fighting with them?” But, here, we want to give him teeth to bite by saying we want to know who altered those figures. He is capable of saying “it is so-and- so;” that is all the investigation seeks to unravel. We want to know who altered those figures. We want to know who is culpable. If we are not told, then the entire county, the Governor and the Executive Committee should be held responsible for this mistake. Let us set a good example. Let the Standing Committee of this Senate start moving around to make sure that there is an officer specifically to deal with the money that is being sent down there and to connect with other people who are responsible for this money. Once again, Mr. Temporary Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to say a few words. I apologise for any mishaps. Thank you.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I stand to support the amendment which gives us more opportunity to ventilate the matters before us. I support it mainly because we expected much more to be done by the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Economic Affairs. The Committee has a good number of The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, when I first spoke on the main Motion, I anticipated an amendment like this. I thank the Mover of the amendment, because then, the Senate will be doing something on the basis of specific action to be taken and a clearer report on this issue. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I was coming in when my brother, the Senator for Laikipia, was speaking and cannot have any doubt that he knows what he is talking about. This is because Sen. G.G Kariuki is a man of tremendous experience in the workings of the Government. As was suggested earlier by Sen.(Dr.) Khalwale, that the records of the deliberations of this particular Motion be made available to the county governments and assemblies, I think that the highlights of the speech by the Senator for Laikipia would be instructive and informative on how things should be done. I believe that Sen. G.G Kariuki understands more than anybody else what excesses and abuse of power means. This is because he is a victim of excesses and abuse of power. But by the grace of God, he survived and is here. One of the reasons I think people like Sen. G.G Kariuki have survived is that when public leaders--- Whether we like it or not, each one of us will eventually be audited. We will live by our sins or what we have done well in. I am saying this particularly because there are people in the generation of Sen. G.G Kariuki, who actually really suffered because their sins caught up with them. But I know that Sen. G.G Kariuki, even before Independence and during the first Government, went through a lot of good and hard times. I was an assistant secretary in Ministry of Lands when Sen. G.G Kariuki was an Assistant Minister for Lands. Therefore, you can see how far I have come with this gentleman, although there was a time when I thought that he was part of the problem. But with tremendous respect, he is everyday part of the solution and that is an improvement. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, Senator! You will have five minutes tomorrow.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Hon. Senators, it is now time for interruption of business. The Senate, therefore, stands adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, 3rd October, 2013, at 2.30 p.m. The Senate rose at 6.30 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.