Hon. Senators, we have the requisite quorum; we may commence our business.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, with your permission, I rise to request for a Statement from the Standing Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights. The Statement that I request is in the following terms: Knowing the high standards of integrity, transparency and accountability which are required of the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (IEBC) and the central place which the Commission together with the Judiciary occupy as pillars of democracy and justice, is the Government satisfied that the IEBC as presently constituted and with the problems and challenges facing it including prosecutions undertaken against its senior members, that it can still discharge its constitutional and legal mandate including the conduct of general elections in 2017? Secondly, since the commissioners were appointed to serve on a full-time basis and on account of Article 10 of the Constitution with the expectation that with the conduct of free and fair elections, there will be no corruption and the elections must be administered in an impartial, neutral, efficient, accurate and accountable manner, is the Government satisfied that the Commission has the competence, capacity, independence and integrity to meet this and other ethical and guiding principles of leadership? Thirdly, has the Government taken note of reports emanating from the UK’s Serious Fraud Office that election authorities in Kenya were recipients of bribes from a supplier The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
What is it, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, Sen. Orengo is seeking a very important Statement. We all know that these are full-time commissioners and involved in a matter of impropriety running into billions. It is not possible that these full-time commissioners had no idea what the three officers who have been taken to court were doing. I request that in that Statement, the Chair should come up with a report on what the Chairman of the Commission himself would have told the Committee in particular on this matter.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on behalf of the Chair of the Legal Affairs and Human Rights Committee, we undertake to respond to the issues raised by Sen. Orengo and Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale in three weeks’ time.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in view of what I know about the Chairman’s mother who passed away recently, I am inclined to accept that.
So, the statement will be made in three weeks’ time. TRANSFER OF HEALTH SERVICES TO COUNTY GOVERNMENTS
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also rise to seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Health, Labour and Social Welfare regarding the transfer of health services to the county governments which has been a matter of concern to the members of the Kenya Medical Practitioners and Dentist Board, the Kenya National Union of Nurses and the Kenya Health Professionals Society. In the Statement, I would wish the Chairman to: 1. Confirm whether the Ministry of Health has met the stakeholders in the health sector to discuss the contentious issues of salary, pension and compensation for years of service. 2. Explain how the process of transfer will be managed to ensure the concerned personnel are not disadvantaged when they move to the devolved governments. 3. State whether arrangements can be made for the national Government to handle the payroll of the affected personnel. 4. Explain if the governors are ready to manage the function of health. 5. State how many counties have indicated they can manage the function and how many have requested for it to remain as national function due to lack of capacity.
Chairman of the Committee.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as you may be aware, there was a petition on this matter of salaries. I would like to state here that while I will be able to give a Statement on the other part, the issue of salaries was dealt with comprehensively through that petition where the nurses and clinical officers petitioned this House. So, we brought back results that the Ministry of Health will not devolve payrolls until 31st December, 2013 and even then, it will be devolved according to the readiness of each county and The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Speaker, Sir, over three weeks ago, I stood here to seek a Statement from the Chair of the Committee on Agriculture, Land and Natural Resources in relation to the promise by the Jubilee Government to facilitate irrigation for over one million acres of land. I just wanted to know whether the process has started, where the land is---
Order, Senator! You are only doing a reminder and I suppose you raised all those issues when you sought the Statement. When was it due?
It was due a week ago.
Is the Chair of the Committee on Agriculture, Land and Natural Resources here? What about the Vice Chair? Any other Member? Majority Leader? Let us take Sen. Chelule. I am sure she is a Member of the Committee. Are you?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, our Committee will be ready with his answers after two weeks from now.
As you noted, this is not a new question. I am told by the Clerk that a copy of the answer is there. It means they have the answer. Maybe you can ask them to respond tomorrow or the nearest date from today.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, if the report is ready, then I will table it here tomorrow afternoon.
Okay. Next Order!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move:- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Order, Sen. Orengo. I heard the Mover call a name but it was not Sen. Orengo to second, although I appreciate your concerns. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Sorry, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I know he was making noise but yes, Sen. Orengo.
Order, Sen. Elachi! Distinguished Senators never ever make noise.
Sorry, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I apologise. He was consulting loudly.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it should go on record that I was consulting very senior, able and distinguished Senators; Sen. Sang himself and Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to second. Essentially, this is a house-keeping process in which by way of this Motion, we are trying to fill in gaps that have arisen out of vacancies, some of them which may be temporary and some which may not be temporary. Essentially, they were as a result of election petitions. Therefore, this is something that is necessary so that the requisite number of Senators of the Committee are in place to avoid the issue of lack of quorum. I am also excited, and I must say that Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale’s choice of Committee was this Committee on Finance, Commerce and Economic Affairs. On my own account as the Chair of the Committee on Implementation, he suffered immensely as Sen. Elachi has mentioned. Therefore, it is nice to see him back to the Committee that he really wanted to serve. Mr. Speaker, Sir, let it go on record that Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale has the necessary experience that will make him serve well in this Committee. The other thing I want to add here is that there is some sign of maturity that I have seen in the Senate Committees that we do not tend to talk about matters which are before the Committee. We wait until there is something to report or talk about. When we sit as committees, we do so as Committees of the Senate and when an issue is before a committee, traditionally, the Committee or the House should not be seen to be addressing an issue that has not been resolved in the Committee or in the House or in a fora outside Parliament. This is for a good cause because when a matter is before a Committee under consideration and you see that the Committee is already divided on a bipartisan basis or ethnic basis, because that is what happens, it undermines the authority and the work of these Committees. My recommendation, if it can be accepted by the House, is that we desist from taking positions publicly on a matter which is before a Committee until the Committee has resolved that particular issue. I have said that, as a Member of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs, I will not comment on a matter which is before that Committee until it is resolved by the Committee. I hope that the practice going on elsewhere which I shall not talk about-- That even before a matter lands in that Committee, you can even guess that if it is a Luo whose matter is under consideration, then all the Luo Members of Parliament will take a particular position which is pre- ordained even before you consider the rationale or the merits of the matter. Therefore, I beg my brothers and sisters here that we should let the Committees to work but they cannot do so if the authority of the Committee is placed in doubt. With those few remarks, I beg to second.
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Mr. Speaker, Sir, very quickly, I would like to support this Motion not because I am on the list but because it gives me an opportunity to speak on the critical role of the work of a committee. I would like us to urge ourselves that under the presidential system, Parliament can only exercise its oversight role effectively through committees. Therefore, when I see some of the things I see in the media about how committees are conducting themselves in some of the Houses of this Parliament, I am very disturbed. As we speak now, it is already on record that during the case of Westgate, even before investigations were concluded, the joint chairs of the committees that were seized of that matter went public and told Kenyans that soldiers had conducted themselves properly. It was very embarrassing to the institution of Parliament that the boss of Kenya Defence Force (KDF)---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
What is it, Sen. Haji?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, is the hon. Senator in order to insinuate that the Committee for National Security and Foreign Affairs had made any remark about Westgate outside this House?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the HANSARD will bear me out. I never said those things.
Order, Sen. Khalwale! It is not only the HANSARD that will bear you out, but even the Speaker. But you cannot say that you never said those things. You said those things, but in reference to another Committee elsewhere. It was not in reference to the Committee chaired by one Sen. Yusuf Haji.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for having listened to me very well. Mr. Speaker, Sir, it was, therefore, very embarrassing to the institution of Parliament of Kenya that none other than the boss of the Kenya Defence Forces (KDF) came out and admitted that, indeed, his soldiers fell short of the glory. This shows how it is important that we take the work of our committees very seriously. Mr. Speaker, Sir, similarly, we have a case where a Committee is seized of the issue of cane poaching, which is threatening the sugar industry in our county and the neighbouring counties of Siaya, Kisumu and Bungoma. Now even before the Committee concludes its investigations, having met only one of the players, it goes and says that they are planning to close down Butali Sugar Company. Closing down Butali Sugar Company is closing down the livelihoods of our people and, therefore, killing them. When the right time comes, I would like to be given an opportunity to see how best we can exercise ourselves in the cordial working relationship between the Senate and the National Assembly, so that should they come up with that kind of threat that they are threatening to effect, we will be given a chance to play our part. Mr. Speaker, Sir, finally, as I support this Committee, I want to lament how unfortunately the law cuts both ways. There is the issue of by-elections. If it was not because of petitions---
Order! Sen. Khalwale, you are talking about a Committee and this Motion has many Committees. So, you have to specify.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. With all humility, I beg for guidance from the Chair on this Motion, where we are actually discussing the appointed Senators. Is it in order, therefore, that the candidates for these appointments themselves contribute?
Order! Sen. Machage, you had made a very positive impression on the Chair all along, as having a good command of the Standing Orders. With that understanding you, definitely, know that a Motion is a Motion and nobody is excluded on any account. The only time that a Member has issues, he is not even excluded from the debate, but just declares some interest if he or she has any. Of course, those interests must be very special and not obvious like being a Member of a Committee. So, each Member has an equal opportunity to contribute to the Motion. Indeed, discussing the composition and the calibre of the nominees is even more pertinent, because you must demonstrate that they will make some impact to the Committee.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to seek your directions. Sen. Machage stood on a point of order. Maybe before you judge him, is it right to ask him which Standing Order is being breached? If he cannot demonstrate, could he suffer further sanctions instead of just a lashing from the Chair?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, if Sen. Orengo listed to me very carefully, I did humbly seek guidance from the Chair.
In fact, I cannot agree more. Sen. Machage started by saying: “I am humbly requesting for your guidance.” When you underline the words “humbly, request and guidance,” you cannot pin down a man on such. So, I am extremely satisfied that he just sought guidance. I know that he has enough information already and appreciated the guidance. So, let us proceed.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion by the Rules and Business Committee on nominations of various Senators to various Committees; specifically on the Committee that I Chair, that is, the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Economic Affairs, where we lost two distinguished Senators to the by-elections. Indeed, we are pleased to note that the Committee has nominated very capable people. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have a lot of confidence in Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. I am sure that he will be useful to the Committee. There is also Sen. Boni Khalwale from Kakamega, although immediately he did---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise on a point of order to ask Sen. Billow whether we have any Senator here who is not capable.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the school that I went to, you can use adjectives to describe people. When I say “very capable”, it is in the context of the position for which these people have been nominated. So, you may be capable, but if I say that so- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is my good friend and Chairman of the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Economic Affairs in order to suggest that I have at any time given this Committee any problem, when the only thing that he knows is that when we contested with him three times, I defeated him? Can I use this opportunity to assure him that there is no election in the Committee and, therefore, he should not feel threatened?
Sen. Khalwale, assuming that he was defeated three times, those are enough problems.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, if, indeed, he won three times, he would have been the Chair. But we spent three weeks not doing useful work because of his unending desire to pursue that office. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to conclude by saying that one of the challenges that we have seen in the past is the need to balance the desire to call the Executive to answer and give them time to deal with policy matters and execution of their work. I think that there is need to do a balance of that, because we have been reading also that some of the Committees, not particularly this House, spend quite a bit of time--- We want to focus particularly on our work to ensure that the Government is held to account with regard to their responsibility. So far, I know that none of the Committees in this House has been accused on questions of integrity. We have had questions in the past where some Committees announce that they are going to do this and that, but in the last minute, you do not realize anything. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to support the other hon. Senators who have been nominated to various Committees and hope that we will be able to carry out our work successfully.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise also to support this Motion. All of these are very, very, very capable Senators and they can serve very well in these Committees. I hope that Sen. Billow heard that I used the word “very” three times. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is long overdue because quite a number of these Committees have been going on without proper composition. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to support the Motion.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I support these changes. Mr. Speaker, Sir, since I became Senator and the Constitution has separated the powers of the Executive and the Legislature, I have observed that the Chairmen of these Committees have not changed the tone that I used to hear in the Ninth and Tenth Parliament. The same trend that the Ministers used to answer questions is appearing here in the House. I was listening this morning to the Senator for Taita-Taveta replying to a question from Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. about the roads. The Committees under their The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would also like to support this very important Motion that will ensure that the business of the House is running; and that our former Members, who dearly served this House, are replaced accordingly. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think going forward – because I have no doubt in terms of legislative, representation, competence of the Members who have been pointed out here – but I think there is the more important question in terms of even our Standing Orders as to who nominates who to a Committee. I will blame Sen. Kajwang if I am wrong; I have sought advice and I think it is the position of our Standing Orders that nominations to Committees are from parties or coalitions. If that is true, questions will arise in future that, suppose somebody is an independent or quasi-independent, like Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, what happens in terms of that nomination? Can one coalition cede their space to give it to an errant Member of another coalition, for example? So, I think those are some of the things, going forward, that we should answer in our Standing Orders, because in future or maybe even in the upcoming by-elections or in future elections, we might have situations where we have an independent candidate being a Senator. Is it possible, then, to provide proper mechanisms of who nominates who to that Committee and whether another coalition can take over somebody’s Member, for example, if he is dewhipped, and appoint them in another coalition? Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I beg to support.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
What is it, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the mark of humility is respect for others. The young Senator from Elgeyo-Marakwet can very well be forgiven because of his inexperience with respect to parliamentary issues.
But is he in order to go round, trying to refer to me? When you say I am an errant Member---
I did not say that.
That is what you said by reference. Mr. Speaker, Sir, if, indeed, you would think that I am errant, what am I an errant from? Mr. Speaker, Sir, even if that word is allowed to pass as parliamentary, it should be on record that I am a Member of the United Democratic Forum (UDF) and, therefore, because I do not subscribe to Jubilee, I am free to serve on any Committee if it so fits the Jubilee side or the CORD side. I am like-minded with CORD; why are you insisting on me pushing your agenda? Is he in order?
Mr. Speaker, Sir--- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Order, Sen. Kipchumba! Why are you just confirming what Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale has just said about you, that you are inexperienced?
Experienced Senators will request for their time!
Okay; I thought it was my time.
You express your interest by standing and the Chair will allow you.
Now you have acquired experience!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the last about eight months since I came to this House, one of my best friends whose debate I admire most is Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. So, the issue I raised here – and that is why I support the Motion – was for posterity. I questioned, for example, what you do in a situation where we have 10 independent candidates, if parties are going to be the ones to nominate Members to committees. We are in a situation where we are amending our Standing Orders; we should, therefore, provide for that mechanism. What happens in a situation where a Member disagrees with his coalition and would like to take up an independent stand and be dewhipped, for example? Or what happens in a situation where a Member is an errant Member, literally? I did not say it is Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale; but there will be situations in future where there will be an errant Member who has been dewhipped by his party and another party gives that Member an opportunity. I am not opposed to this Motion; I am just saying that we should use such opportunities that will inform future amendments that we will put in our Standing Orders so that those scenarios are catered for. But for my respectable friend, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, to imagine that when I say “future errant Members” will be himself, I think it is imputing improper motive not only on his friend, but on a serious Jubilee Senator.
Let us have the last bite from Sen. Kajwang.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Senator mentioned me as one of the people who gave him this advice. Sincerely, when we wrote the new Standing Orders, we were thinking in terms of the new Constitution, which gave parties a very strong and central part in the management of the affairs of the House. So, parties nominate Members to all these Committees, and if you decide to be independent, then you are independent; you may not even get to any Committee. If, of course, as an independent, you make yourself a friend of Jubilee or another party or coalition, they may consider you for nomination to that Committee. So, there is really nothing that has happened that will not happen; and if you decide to be errant, then the Standing Orders provide that you can be dewhipped, and you can hang around until somebody sympathizes with you. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Order, Senators! Sen. Murkomen has raised quite a fundamental issue in terms of an errant Member who has been dewhipped by a party, and then he is brought by another party. That is a matter that might defeat the purpose why, in the first place, that Member was dewhipped. Because if the Member is to be brought back by another party and, perhaps, a party opposed to that other party, you can really understand the dilemma there. I think that is something we need to think through in the light of what Sen. Kajwang has also said about the position of parties within the House. But on the issue of whether a party or a coalition of parties can nominate a Member from another party, that has happened before in the Parliament of the Republic of Kenya and, so, a precedent has already been set including, I suppose, even if we had an independent who, for some reason, decides to work with a particular party; or if the party felt that, that independent Senator can make a more useful contribution to a particular Committee, then I see nothing in my view to stop that party from doing so. So, that is the position. As for the argument whether Sen. Murkomen referred to Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale as errant, and for Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale owning it up, I tend to agree with Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, because my favorite author, Chinua Achebe in Things Fall Apart wrote that “Every person---” and I have used the word “person” because those days, he was not that gender sensitive as I am paraphrasing – “becomes uneasy when dry bones are mentioned in a proverb.” So, there is every reason for Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale to become very uneasy with your references. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I know constitutional lawyers here, and anyone who would like to pursue this matter further, the Constitution says that if an independent candidate joins a political party or is seen to support policies of a political party, he will lose his or her seat. So, going forward, memberships of Committees perhaps may not just be supporting a political party, but perhaps even that Committee they join together to push policies of a political party. It will be a very dangerous line with the possibility of that Member losing his seat. I think these are things we have to keep thinking, going forward.
What is it, Sen. Kiraitu?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we do respect Sen. Murkomen as an academic-- -
But I think he is quite out of order to engage this House in academic issues, because there is no Senator here who is an independent Senator; we all come from various political parties or coalitions of political parties. So, the issue about an The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
What is it, Sen. Orengo?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, one of the things I admire about the Lion King, the distinguished Senator for Meru, is that he is not only a distinguished lawyer, but also a very practical politician. But is he also in order to carry us through a process of speculation without any foundation? Because the list that has been placed before the House was brought before the Rules and Business Committee, where the 30 leaders who are here sit, or the head of those coalitions sit and approve this list – and he was there. In fact, he attended the meeting; the Lion King was there. So, I find it a matter of really taking too much time because we have got a division to go through.
The distinguished Senator for Meru was there. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, Sir, the rules are clear, the Constitution is clear and if anybody has got a complaint, you know what to do. The Constitution is clear on this issue about membership of political parties and the conduct of Members who belong to political parties; the Political Parties Act is also clear. There is a history behind it, as Sen. Kajwang was saying; some of these things did not---
Order, Sen. Orengo! I find it interesting that you and your predecessor came to the Dispatch Box to say that we should terminate these discussions, but you use the same opportunity to lengthen it!
I think you have put your case.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rarely speak. I was looking at you to see if the Speaker shows discomfort, then I can go on and on; but the moment I will realize that the Chair is not comfortable, I will sit down; and I sit down! The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale?
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.The funny thing about lawyers is that they at times forget just like doctors tend to forget at times. Medical books are not only read by doctors alone. Patients also read them. Similarly, statutory books are also read by non-lawyers. I am, therefore, impressed that the hon. Senator wants to impute in anticipation of some theoretical exercise that he so wishes to contemplate forgetting that the same Political Parties Act, Section 14(5)(d) and (e), in fact, for your interest, specify that the things he is saying do not apply. They apply when they are being applied in relation to a party. However, as far as UDF is concerned here, when you refer to it, you will be doing so on the strength of the coalition called “Jubilee”. Mr. Speaker, Sir, sub-sections (d) and (e) emphasise that the contemplated disciplinary actions cannot be taken if a Member is seen to be taking a position contrary to a coalition. For the benefit of the Senator from Meru, Sen. Murungi, the same Act, Section 14 also provides that---
Order, hon. Murungi! You will not point fingers at Senators. You have to speak through the Chair.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to bring this to your attention because the public is following this debate and we do not want to appear ignorant. The same section of the Political Parties Act, sub section 6, provides that anybody who infringes on a Member from enjoying the rights that I am purported not to enjoy commits an offence and is liable to a fine of Kshs1 million or a two years imprisonment or both.
Order! That is a natural opportunity to bring this debate to a close. However, as I do so, I want to clarify a few things. First, it is perfectly in order for the Senator from Elgeyo-Marakwet to engage us in what you may consider academic debate and that is constitutional law. The Senator who was engaged in academics went ahead to specify another section of the Political Parties Act which was a bit of law. This House becomes richer when Senators engage in debates including those from other disciplines like the Medical Science of Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale who has just confirmed that he may know more about law in extensor more than lawyers who contributed to the making of the laws. This is a debating Chamber and I will not allow further debate when I feel that it has gone too far. However, if the debate is pertinent and addresses issues at hand, we should entertain contributions. The debate is important. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Hon. Senators, the next Motion requires us to vote. However, I see that the numbers have dwindled again. We will vote on the two Motions, No.10 and 11 using the same Division Bell. I, therefore, order that the Division Bell be rang for both Motions. We will then proceed to vote. FORMULATION OF WATER HARVESTING POLICIES FOR COUNTIES THAT, aware that water is a basic need and that the country cannot exclusively depend on primary sources of water to satisfy all its water needs; deeply concerned that the sole dependence on derivative water sources leads to interruption of water related activities due to insufficiency; recognizing that water harvesting is a crucial secondary source of water; noting that a lot of water has dissipated due to ineffective programmes and initiatives for harnessing water; cognizant of the fact that rain water that is not harvested causes environmental degradation and damage to infrastructural facilities; recognizing that Article 69 (2) of the Constitution confers to every person a duty to cooperate with state organs and other persons to protect and conserve the environment and ensure ecologically sustainable development and use of natural resources; the Senate urges the national Government to initiate and formulate water harvesting policies to guide water harvesting programmes in all the 47 counties to reduce over- dependence on primary water sources.
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On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Before we closed the counting, as the names were being called, we were all wondering where the Senate Minority Whip was because we did not hear him.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I voted yes.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, if he voted, then it is okay because we were going to whip him.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, Sen. Kajwang is used to seeing me seated at the front so because I was at that corner, he could not see or hear me.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
What is it? As you approach the Dispatch Box, I thought Sen. Muthama was in the House when I was making some references to Sen. Murkomen.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, just a small point of clarification. Is it in order for Sen. Wetangula’s name to be called out when we know that the writs have been issued with regard to the Bungoma by-election?
You are absolutely right. That position should read vacant.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, maybe the Clerk could delegate somebody.
Sen. Orengo, you may wish to hear things but you will never hear anything from the Clerk. Order, Senators! The results are as follows:
Hon. Senators, we said that the first Bell will serve for the two Motions and therefore we will proceed on the Roll Call Division again for the next Motion. ADOPTION OF REPORT ON VISITS TO KISII, NYAMIRA, KISUMU, KAKAMEGA AND VIHIGA COUNTIES THAT, the Senate adopts the report of the Standing Committee on Education, Information and Technology on the visits to Kisii, Nyamira, Kisumu, Kakamega and Vihiga counties laid on the Table of the House on Thursday, 17th October, 2013.
Order Senators! The results of the Division are as follows:-
Unlock the doors.
Hon. Senators, I did not respond to the issue raised by Sen. Kajwang. It is quite a substantive issue in the sense that if you look at Standing Order No.77, it says:- “(1) “No Senator shall be obliged to vote in a division, but those present and not voting shall either- (a) in the case of an electronic vote, press the “Abstain” button; or (b) in the case of a roll call vote, record their abstention with the clerk. (2) It shall be disorderly conduct for a Senator to fail to record his or her abstention in a division. (3) A Senator shall not vote on any question in which the Senator has a pecuniary interest. (4) During division, Senators shall maintain order in the Senate and shall be in their designated seats and shall remain seated until the result is announced.”
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I thought that I was just guessing, but now I am grounded on the rules.
I felt that you had actually raised a very fundamental issue and I think that the Senators are guided. So, Sen. Muthama, next time you may wish to maintain one position during voting and there will be no doubts from your neighbours. Next Order! ISSUANCE OF FIREARM LICENSES TO KENYANS ABOVE THE AGE OF 30
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to request that you give us some guidance. To my understanding, an Act of Parliament ranks a notch higher than a Bill, and a Bill a notch higher than a Motion, for the simple reason that it is a Motion which is a precursor to a Bill, and a Bill is a precursor to an Act. When I look at this Motion, we want, as a Senate, to urge the national Government to issue licences to posses firearms to Kenyans above the age of 30 years, who apply to be issued with firearms and that this be done after thorough vetting to ensure that those licensed can handle firearms that they are issued with responsibly. Mr. Speaker, Sir, it should not be lost to this Senate that we already have the Firearms Act. Therefore, if the intention of this Senate is that the Firearms Act does not sufficiently provide for the handling, licensing and use of firearms, then we should move an amendment to the Act through a Bill and not a Motion, just to make a wish. I would like you to guide us on this, because to me, the time of this Senate would be better used on debating the Bill to amend the Firearms Act. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Do you not think that Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale was almost challenging your decision to have approved this Motion? If that is the case, is he not out of order?
Order, Senators! While I appreciate the support from Sen. G.G. Kariuki, I think that any Member of the House can actually challenge a decision of the Chair. Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale was asking for guidance. Even when we were approving the Motion, we had kind of similar concerns. But if you look at the operational Standing Order 45 (3), it says:- “If the Speaker is of the opinion that any proposed Motion – (a) is one which infringes, or the debate on which is likely to infringe, any of these Standing Orders; (b) is contrary to the Constitution or an Act of Parliament, without expressly proposing appropriate amendment to the Constitution or the Act of Parliament; (c) is too long; (d) is framed in terms which are inconsistent with the dignity of the Senate; or (e) contains or implies allegations which the Speaker is not satisfied that the Mover can substantiate; the Speaker may direct either that, the Motion is inadmissible, or that notice of it cannot be given without such alteration as the Speaker may approve.” When you really look at the things that I would use to deny the Motion, none of those will really fit the bill. So, you have to look at the value of a Motion in the only sense that--- You will remember that before we brought the changes to the Standing Orders, Members could actually not bring Bills directly. It used to be the previous tradition that you bring a Motion in order to ventilate and canvass support to an idea, concept or issues and then, that way, when you have gained some currency and acceptance, you can now translate that into a Bill. So, for purposes of deliberating, especially on matters of security, it is under those circumstances that we approved the Motion. So, the Motion is proper and admissible. In any event, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale who purported to oppose it, also admitted that the Motion is attempting to remove the discretion from the licensing officer, which I think is also a contribution that you may wish to make or otherwise. Hon. Senators, please, ignore the “resumption of debate” indicated on the Order Paper. As you know, these Order Papers are prepared a day before. So, the assumption was that this was supposed to have started in the Morning Sitting and that in the event that it had not been conclude, then we would proceed in the afternoon. So, we are beginning afresh.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Motion: THAT, aware that many Kenyans in their prime years have lost their lives in the hands of criminals and terrorists; concerned that majority of those killed are either employers or employees who form Kenya’s labour force and therefore contribute immensely to the economy of the country; further concerned that many The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. As I stand to second this Motion, I would like to remind my colleague that I am the Senator for West Pokot County and not Pokot County. This Motion has come at a time when there is a lot of soul searching and many regulations are being crafted to check the spiraling insecurity in Kenya. The most recent that we witnessed was the Westgate Mall terror attack. This was very recent and it caught very many people unaware while doing their own businesses. Some people had gone to buy things while others had gone to sell in Westgate Mall. Others thought the security apparatus were on top of things. When people ask for permission for citizens to arm themselves, this brings about queries to the extent that one wonders what is happening. We are calling upon Senators to deliberate upon this Motion, cautiously and carefully. We want Kenyans to follow what we are up to. In 1963 when we got Independence, the country was safer than it is today. We have listened to harrowing testimonies from Kiambu and Murang’a counties. Last year, I had a function at Kirinyaga County when I was the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Public Works. I realised that people would wake up very early to drive on the road. If you asked them where they were going, they would say to the safer areas of Nairobi. They left behind very well built homes in central Kenya. Kiambu and Kajiado counties which The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Madam Temporary Speaker, Sir, this afternoon I may sound unusual because of trying to do what I should never have done. I am wondering why Sen. Mositet decided to bring this kind of Motion. He did not just want to come and be heard talking, but it is as a result of desperation. This country is so desperate because of insecurity. From desperation what follows is anarchy or chaos. We are just about there. There is nobody in this country who will tell you that his life is guaranteed by anyone. I am saying this with a lot of pain because I have gone through these things. People in Laikipia County and all over Kenya have suffered. I do not know what miracle will avert the situation which is becoming very dangerous. All Kenyans feel that they are not protected. Every evening a person must be abducted or somebody has been killed at his gate as he enters his compound. Here you are telling the people of Kenya that you are protecting them. Time has come when they think they should protect themselves. It is good that we are trying to do this legitimately through the Senate and other institutions. Madam Temporary Speaker, it is the climax of desperation and people are willing to do anything to protect themselves. We cannot have criminals coming to our houses The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. I want to know whether it is in order to correct Sen. G.G. Kariuki for saying that the Kikuyus fought for the Independence of this country. The correct position is that Kenyans fought for the Independence of this country.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker.
Sen. Muthama is on a point of order. Could we allow Sen. G.G. Kariuki to respond?
It is on the same, Madam Temporary Speaker.
Madam Temporary Speaker, the point of order being raised by Sen. Muthama is very critical. The Senator for Laikipia is implying that it is only the Kikuyus who fought for Independence. Is he in order given that in Kapenguria, Elijah Masinde who was not even a politician was detained alongside Jomo Kenyatta? When he came out and refused to tow the line, Kenyatta went on and detained him for a further 15 years. Is he in order to suggest that it is only the Kikuyus who fought for Independence?
Madam Temporary Speaker, it is unfortunate that we never take this House seriously. At no time did I say that it was only the Kikuyus who did “a,” “b,” “c” and “d.” I chose my words and, in fact, you are much younger than me and you should listen to what I am saying. You should not feel like boiling when you hear a Kikuyu being mentioned somewhere because they are here to stay. You can take them nowhere. Therefore---
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. Is it in order for Sen. G.G. Kariuki to keep on provoking Kenyans? What we are challenging here is the statement he made that Kikuyus used homemade guns to fight for Independence. The correct position is that Kenyans fought for Independence. In Kapenguria, there were six Kenyans who were not drawn from one community. We all fought for the Independence of this country. For the purpose of the HANSARD, it is important for Sen. G.G. Kariuki to state that Kenyans fought for Independence and not to bring up the issue of a certain community.
Order! The two of you cannot be upstanding at the same time. Could you conclude your statement? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Madam Temporary Speaker, he has the perception that he owns Kenya. What Sen. G.G. Kariuki should know is that the correct position is that Kenyans fought for Independence and nobody is jittery because of simple mention of the Kikuyu. The communities in this country---
Sen. Muthama, you are not contributing. You have already made your point. Can we proceed?
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. We are handling a very sensitive issue of licensing firearms. Is the Senator for Laikipia, therefore, in order to say that people should be allowed to make their own homemade guns, when that is strictly against the law?
Let us allow Sen. G.G. Kariuki to respond to the various points of order that have been raised. Let him clarify his position and statements.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I am not amused because I said that we be allowed to make homemade guns because the Kikuyus used home-made guns to fight Europeans. I do not know where all these other matters are coming from. I did not say that the Kambas did not fight for Independence or that Kenyatta, Ngei, Masinde Muliro and others did not fight for Independence. However, they did not use the homemade guns. The homemade guns were specifically used by those who went to the forests. That is my position. Madam Temporary Speaker, since my time was taken, would you give me five more minutes?
One minute! Please, conclude your statement.
Madam Temporary Speaker, I want to apologize if I disappointed anyone of you, but I cannot help your ears to listen. This is because what I said is not exactly what you are trying to say. Madam Temporary Speaker, thank you very much. I wish I had more time.
Madam Temporary Speaker, I rise to support this Motion with a slight amendment. Madam Temporary Speaker, I beg to move that the Motion be amended by inserting the following phrase immediately after the word “licensed” appearing in the ninth line; “are either business people, Government employees or other deserving persons with special interests who” Madam Temporary Speaker, I am proposing this amendment because, currently, vetting is being done. You can apply for a weapon and it can be given to anyone. But by opening it up now and going up to the age of 30 years, I can see anybody rushing to apply for the weapons, including even the criminals. Given the terrorists attacks and the cases of insecurity that have been raised here, I think that it would better if some controls were put in place, so that not everybody can apply for a licence to possess a gun and get it. Madam Temporary Speaker, with those few remarks on the amendment, I wish to ask Sen. Khalwale to second it.
Madam Temporary Speaker, I was originally going to oppose this Motion, not because I am against the Mover. I really must congratulate him The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Madam Temporary Speaker, I have a lot respect for my colleague, Sen. Mositet, as well as my brother, Sen. Muthama. But with utmost respect, I want to oppose this amendment and even the main Motion. Madam Temporary Speaker, I want to confirm that the problems that have been narrated by my senior Senator and former Minister for Internal Security, Sen. G.G Kariuki, are real. It is happening and I want to confirm that in Kitui County we have a lot of insecurity. As you aware, we spend a lot of time here, yesterday afternoon, talking about the insecurity that is prevailing in our respective counties. There is virtually no county that cannot narrate incidents of insecurity. Even those areas that hitherto were considered “safe” are now worse. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I look at this Motion as a Motion that is publicizing something that is already being done. We already have a Firearms Act which is very specific. In fact, it goes into definitional issues where it states what are the firearms, what are the rifles, it talks about stun guns, it talks about a licensing officer and the requirements of those licensing officers, as the Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale has already stipulated here. So, this is something that is already being done; it is already there. What I am trying to figure out exactly is what we are trying to get out of it. In fact, the way I look at it is that, I look at it as a Motion which is asking us to do the wrong thing because it is right. There is a twist in it because it is asking us to do the wrong thing because it is right. It is a wrong thing. In fact, this is something that we do not need to talk about in public. Here we are talking about people being armed. The other day, we were talking about the issue of small arms. Again, we were discouraging the same thing. However, on the flipside of the argument, you have innocent people who are also being killed. I always wonder about a situation where am attacked in my home and I have children to protect. I think it was just the other day I was sharing with Sen. Haji and saying that if I was being attacked, I would want to fight back and defend my children. I saw the possibility of a stun gun that is less lethal than the actual gun. In short, all Kenyans are looking for possibilities of protecting themselves and their loved ones. But I think we need to ask ourselves a long and very hard question about the way to actually achieve that end. It is about security. It is about ensuring that security is enhanced within the country, but exactly how we go about it, is the problem. We know that in Kenya now, life has been so cheapened that from here to your way home, you are not sure whether you will be finished on the way. You are not very sure whether you will The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker.
What is out of order, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale? Take your seat, Sen. (Dr.) Zani?
Madam Temporary Speaker, I am very sorry to interrupt the doctor, but I would like her to bear with me---
Sen. (Dr.) Zani, the two of you cannot be on your feet. Please, take your seat, Sen. (Dr.) Zani?
Madam Temporary Speaker, I would like her to bear with me on the understanding that what transacts here goes on official record of the Senate. It will be unfair to allow her assertion to go, that when you apply, your application is not subject to vetting. Madam Temporary Speaker, the truth is that under this law, which I have been quoting from extensively, there is provision for vetting. We even have District Vetting Committees. I think she should correct that notion before she continues. I am saying that she is out of order to suggest that once you apply for a firearm, you are not subjected to vetting. The truth on the ground is that, yes, there is vetting because we have a District Vetting Committee. You will not be licensed on the spot until a full record of your character and the things I read about are made open to this Committee before you are allowed a license to own a firearm.
Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, do you mean she is out of order to misinform the House?
Madam Temporary Speaker, she is out of order to mislead the House.
Is it to mislead the House and misinform?
Yes, Madam Temporary Speaker. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Sen. G.G. Kariuki?
Madam Temporary Speaker, is it in order for Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale to allocate himself the responsibility of the Speaker to decide who is out of order and who is in order? He ought to have addressed the Chair and not to decide issues by himself.
Sen. G.G. Kariuki, in my understanding, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale did not make that assumption. He is pointing out what, in his opinion, is out of order. The Chair has not yet ruled. I want Sen. (Dr.) Zani to be given the opportunity to clarify her points before I make that ruling.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I would like to clarify and say that even with the vetting that Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale is talking about, even with the information that is given, because according to the Act, the licensing officer will finally, through the other district committees, give the certificate--- But still, when talking about human beings, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, the way you behave here is not the way you behave on Sunday, for example, when you go to Church. When you go to church on Sunday, you are humbled by the fact that this becomes a different person. What vetting can give us a 100 per cent surety that the person who has been vetted is the one who should own a firearm? I affirm my position that when dealing with human life, it is very difficult to discern who is capable of handling a firearm unless there are other laws which are put into place to ensure that people behave in a certain way. According to the Act, there are stipulations for the sanctions, for instance, if they misuse of firearms. If, for example, these are people in the military or the police, they are told that they will not be paid their pension or they will lose their jobs. Therefore, there is a direct sanction that is applied on them as a result of misusing the firearm.
On a point of information Madam Temporary Speaker.
Would you like to be informed?
Yes, I would like to be informed.
Madam Temporary Speaker, the process of vetting has been there. The Motion by Sen. Mositet gives more powers to the Authority to give guns to as many people as possible. For the sake of informing Sen. (Dr.) Zani, the Motion clarifies, in details, regarding who should be considered for weapons. The amendment talks about business people, Government employees and to cover everybody, it also talks about other persons with special interests. That will allow the vetting to be done widely because, first of all, those who are not known, for instance, people with special interests, will have to be investigated by consulting people who know then from their villages and sub locations, so that we know what type of people we are dealing with.
Sen. (Dr.) Zani, you can proceed.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for that information. The reason I have gone into those details is because the severity of the consequences of having armed people are very dire. It would be wrong for us, as a Senate, to debate and support without looking at the flipside. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Thank you, Sen. (Dr.) Zani. Before we proceed, I would like to take this opportunity to introduce and welcome this evening some representatives of delegates attending a second meeting of legal counsels to Parliaments which is being hosted by Parliament of Kenya here in Nairobi. They are drawn from national and regional parliaments of the following countries; Kenya, Benin, Botswana, Burkina Faso, Democratic Republic of Congo, Ghana, Liberia, Madagascar, Malawi, Nigeria, Rwanda, Seychelles, South Africa, South Sudan, Sudan, Uganda, The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me a chance to contribute to this very important Motion. For sure I want to say that this is a very important Motion although there are many challenges that we need to consider as we debate it. I will contribute to this Motion considering the fact that it is specific people who should be given firearms. I feel sorry whenever I see watchmen standing at different gates. I remember the issue of Westgate Mall where the guards at the door were shot while lying down. These are people who protect buildings worth billions and yet they have no weapons. Their lives are endangered most of the time. This category of people should be considered for guns if this Motion becomes law. I also support this Motion because criminals, after knowing that Kenyan citizens do not have weapons to fight back, have made us their targets. Criminals have taken that opportunity to kill, steal and to kidnap at their own will. This is something we should think about even though it has its own disadvantages. We should allow everybody who is qualified to have a firearm to own it. However, there are certain people that I would support the Motion if they were put into consideration. The law should allow families that have been victims of crime due to high insecurity to have guns so that they protect themselves. These people are genuinely in need of firearms. Once given the firearms, they would protect themselves. This Motion should also cater for such families. I also want to contribute by saying that once vetting is done; because from the village level it is easy to identify the behavior of different people, it will be easy to tell whether people who have been given firearms will use them properly or not. At times, you will find that we have people who are short tempered or the “short- wired” people whose tempers are not predictable. Village elders know such people and these people, during vetting, cannot be given a go-ahead to own firearms. With those few remarks, I support the amendment to the Motion.
Hon. Senators, I want to draw your attention to Standing Order No.69 (1) and (2). This Motion does not affect counties. I will then proceed to put the question.
We will now continue debate on the amended Motion. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Madam Temporary Speaker, Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo is the one who seconded the original Motion.
I do not have the list, but I am well informed that the Senator who seconded was Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo. So, he will not also speak. However, Sen. Muthama, you have also spoken to this Motion. The only people who can speak to this Motion are Sen. Joy and Sen. Wamatangi.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I was afraid to support this Motion because of what Sen. (Dr.) Zani said, that we are supporting something because it is right. I support this Motion because of the criminal activities that happen in our country due to the fact that we are unable to defend ourselves. I am looking at a scenario where a person wants to rob you, but discovers that you are armed. This will dissipate the confidence of the robber and you will remain safe. What would happen if you are armed and you are in an entertainment place? Will you be disciplined? What of if you get annoyed? What will happen? We need to be disciplined while carrying firearms. We are aware that there are several Senators amongst us who are armed for the sake of protection. We need to protect ourselves---
On a point of information, Madam Speaker.
Sen. Gwendo, do you wish to be informed?
Yes, Madam Temporary Speaker.
Madam Temporary Speaker, I wish to inform Sen. Gwendo that it is not just members of the public who cannot be in control of their firearms, it just depends on an individual. We have even seen police officers killing their colleagues. For example, Hon. Manandu, the first Member of Parliament for Mwingi North was eliminated by an Administration policeman. So, it just depends on somebody’s character. So, it is not everybody who will misuse his or her weapon.
Madam Temporary Speaker, we also know that there are incidents of police officers killing their colleagues. In this case if we are going to provide firearms for Government officers and businessmen and women, they need to go through some form of training. We are only looking at a case where a police officer kills another one. What of if a Senator kills another? We need the arms to protect ourselves, but there should be some discipline. We need the firearms to protect ourselves and our families, but there should be some vetting and training. I support.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I stand to support the Motion. I come from Kiambu County where we have a lot of security challenges. Recently I got a call from my Vicar whose house had been broken into by thugs. They went into his bedroom where he was with his wife. They took the whole family hostage for a long time, tortured them, ransacked the whole house, took all his household goods The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Hon. Senators, before I call upon the Mover to reply, I would like to clarify an earlier ruling that I just made and going by the expression on several Senators’ faces, it looks like most of them were not convinced. I made reference to Standing Order No.94 (3) which directs us on how to proceed with debate before amendments and after. It states:- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I sincerely thank Senators for their contributions. I know it has been a long day since morning. However, they have soldiered on to make sure that they make their contributions. Madam Temporary Speaker, I appreciate the amendment because it is just giving the Motion more substance. All what we are saying is that it has reached a time when Kenyans should not helplessly be killed in their homes without any means of defending their families, properties, neighbourhoods and the nation. In Ngong, there is an area called Olepolos or Zambia. Of late some armed criminals make sure that they intimidate people when they are going home. At night, they rampage through the homes in that area. I was imagining if a few families in that area were armed, I do believe these people will stop their activities. Sen. Wamatangi reminded us of a particular incident in Kiambu County. There are quite a number of families who have gone through such distress. Criminals just walk into homes, find families having dinner and rape the daughters and their mother while the father looks helplessly. With the passage of this Motion, the days of the criminals are numbered. I hope the Inspector General will now have reason to make sure that some Kenyans are licensed to own firearms in order to protect their families and the country. Madam Temporary Speaker, with those few remarks, I beg to move.
Hon. Senators, I make further reference to Standing Order No.69. In my considered opinion, this Motion does not affect counties. I will, therefore, proceed to put the Question.
THAT, aware that many Kenyans in their prime years have lost their lives in the hands of criminals and terrorists; concerned that majority of those killed are either employers or employees who form Kenya’s labour force and, therefore, contribute immensely to the economy of the country; further concerned that many children are orphaned and, in many instances, property lost as a result of the criminal acts; noting that this problem has caused numerous investors to relocate The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Hon. Senators, we shall now move on to the next Order!
Madam Temporary Speaker, I beg to move that The National Flag, Emblems and Names (Amendment) Bill (2013) be now read a Second Time. Madam Temporary Speaker, before I clarify the need for this amendment, I want to start by reassuring all the 47 Governors of the Republic of Kenya that this is not a Bill meant to trim or regulate them or interfere with the way they carry out their business. Indeed, if anything, this Bill has got very clear objectives. They are only three. The first one is that this Bill attempts, for the first time, to create a statute for titles. It wants, for the first time, to create a statute to put the issue of precedence at public functions. It sets out to create a schedule of those people who will be allowed to fly the national flag. It is important that we remember that up to now, it is only regulations to the old National Flags and Emblems Act that have been governing the flying of flags. But now that we have a new Constitution, it is important for people to know that under the new Constitution, we went out and stated that we have four cardinal national symbols. The first cardinal national symbol is the national flag, followed by the national anthem, the crown and finally, the public seal. Madam Temporary Speaker, the importance of the public seal is that the President, who uses the public seal cannot use it on any other document other than official business. It is so respected. The national crown, which is put on by officers who serve in our military and the police cannot be worn by an officer on any other attire other than the military or police uniform. They cannot put it on their ordinary civilian wear. That is the respect of the crown. As far as the national anthem is concerned, it is reserved for special occasions. All of you who are old enough, and I believe that applies to all of us other than Joy, will remember that when we broke the announcement that President Kenyatta was dead---
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. Is Sen. Khalwale in order to refer to Sen. Joy as only “Joy?”
Sen. Khalwale, you are out of order! Address Sen. Joy appropriately. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Madam Temporary Speaker, I am very sorry. It is just that I got carried away by the fact that she is younger than my firstborn son. She can easily become my daughter-in-law, but that is not the point.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. Is the hon. Senator in order to insinuate that I am as young as his child, who is probably 16 or 17 years old?
How old is your firstborn son, for purposes of clarity, so that Sen. Joy can feel comfortable?
Madam Temporary Speaker, my firstborn son is 20 years my junior and 33 years old. My second-born daughters are twins and 29 years old. My fourth-born is a son, who is 27 years old. So, she will forgive me for thinking that she is a potential daughter-in-law. But I respect---
Order, Sen. Khalwale! You are making it even worse. Sen. Joy has not made an announcement that she is shopping around for a husband. Sen. Joy!
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. Is the hon. Senator in order to even further insinuate that I am looking for a partner and I am below 34 years of age?
Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, you are out of order! Sen. Joy has clarified she is not younger than 34 years? So, withdraw and apologize.
Madam Temporary Speaker, I want to profusely and in good faith, apologize for thinking that the hon. Senator is younger than she is.
Very well! You may now proceed.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I was making the important point that, at the moment, the National Anthem is taken seriously. In 1978, when the late President Kenyatta died, they started by playing the National Anthem to bring the country together. Therefore, it is a serious thing. We play the National Anthem and hoist the National Flag only when a Kenyan athlete has won a gold medal, but not even when he has won silver or bronze. Therefore, the National Anthem is taken seriously. Finally, Madam Temporary Speaker, because of the absence of regulations, the National Flag has been abused because you have seen, for many years, the Provincial Commissioners (PS) fly the National Flag on their motor vehicles. There is no law that allows our Governors today to fly the National Flag on their motorcades, but they can be forgiven because it was only provided for in a regulation of the Statute. Madam Temporary Speaker, I move this afternoon to request that the House supports this Amendment Bill so that we can achieve the following. I would like that we amend the principal Act by inserting the following new sections immediately after Section 2(a). The section I would like us to insert is supposed to provide for State Officers who are entitled to fly the National Flag, which should be flown on their official The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
There is no choice!
Yes, there is no choice. So, I do not have to belabour that point. The second one is that Members might ask why I have not distinguished between the two Speakers of the two Houses. It is because I want to avoid an unnecessary debate here and in the Lower House. This is because the moment you put the Speaker of the National Assembly above, the Senate will also demand that the Speaker of the Senate be above and vice versa . So, to avoid that, whichever Speaker is present on that day should be given his or her respect. But if both Speakers are present, common sense will prevail. During drafting, there was an attempt to change my thinking, but I encourage that thinking at the Committee Stage. I had wanted that part (e) would be the Senator, followed by the Governor, then the Cabinet Secretary and then the Attorney-General. This is because a Cabinet Secretary and the Attorney-General are appointees of the President. They are in fact vetted by Members of Parliament. The others who are elected are a notch higher. Why do I put a Senator above a Governor? This is because the Governor – to say the truth - is voted for by the same number of people like the Senator, but the Governor has a small constituency called the county. The Senator represents that county alongside his or her jurisdiction also including the Republic of Kenya. So, it should be clear to Governors that much as we are elected, functionally we have an expanded mandate because we speak for the nation while they speak for a county. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Madam Temporary Speaker, I rise to second the Bill as moved by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. I wish just to raise two issues in support of this Bill because the Mover has elaborately prosecuted and presented his facts. First, it is important to create order now. In the current Constitution, we have several new titles which have been given to Government officers and leaders. In the previous Constitution, we did not have Cabinet Secretaries, but Ministers. We also did not have Principal Secretaries, but Permanent Secretaries. Neither did we have Senators and Governors. That has brought a lot of confusion in public gatherings, for example, when the Salaries and Remuneration Committee (SRC) did the evaluations and set the salaries. They have been almost silently using that free thought, although it is not constitutional, that they would place some officers above elected leaders. Therefore, this Bill is simply trying to set that order. Secondly, I laud the Senator for Kakamega for distinguishing and making it clear. From the onset, there was some disquiet within the ranks of the Governors that this Bill is seeking to trim their powers.
Order hon. Senator! You will have 20 minutes to conclude your contribution when we next commence debate on this Bill. It is not a timed Bill and every Senator will be entitled to 30 minutes. It is time to adjourn the Senate. The Senate, therefore, stands adjourned to tomorrow, Thursday 7th November, 2013, at 2.30 p.m. The Senate rose at 6.30 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate