Order! Order, Senators! Let us commence our business.

Order, Senators! I have a message from the National Assembly on the Division of Revenue Bill, 2014.

Hon. Senators, I wish to bring to the attention of the Senate that Pursuant to Standing Order No.40 (3) and (4), the Clerk of the Senate has delivered to me a message from the National Assembly regarding the Division of Revenue Bill. A message which is dated 25th April, 2014, was communicated to all Senators pursuant to Standing Order No.40 on 28th April, 2014. It states as follows:- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Mine is just for the record. On the Order Paper, we have the Bill presented as Bill No.13 of 2014; but it has been presented as a document that indicates that it is Bill No.15 of 2014. Is it one and the same thing? This is just for the record.

I do not have that document.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Clerk’s Office has circulated a Bill and then we have the Order Paper.

Order, Senators! The point raised by the Senate Minority Leader is valid. I read the Message as transmitted from the National Assembly, which was indicating No.13; but the Bill itself of the same National Assembly is actually Bill No.15. So, the Message transmitted should be corrected accordingly to reflect Bill No.15 and not 13. I thank you for pointing that out.

What is it, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, last year, this same process attracted a lot of acrimony between the two Houses. I was thinking, as a way of appreciating the new- found working relationship between the two Houses, that you convey our gratitude and appreciation to the Speaker of the National Assembly for finally respecting the rule of law.

While I appreciate the desire to appreciate, but I think things under the law are expected of all of us. However, I will convey the message on the spirit of working together.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. For purpose of the record, whereas I join my colleague, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale in appreciating the other House for doing what is required by the Constitution, it is not true that last year they did not do the same. In fact, the same was done. The problem occurred after this stage. I wanted this for the record so that it does not look like last year it was different. It was the same but the problem occurred at a stage which is after this one.

That is correct. But I thought Sen. Murkomen, you would go further by saying that you do not expect the same to happen now. That will be agreeing with the observation raise by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think what Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale is doing is just to note the spirit with which we are working. We need to note that we arrived here as a result of a legal process. We had to go for an interpretation at the Supreme Court. We did that because of our love for constitutionalism. But it must be noted that there are still challenges ahead of us. This will be for another day because there are Bills which are still being signed that have never gone through the constitutional process. Therefore, when we retreat, in our usual manner, the way you lead us with a lot of wisdom, in that very important forum that we will have, you have always cautioned us that for comity of the two Houses, there are certain things we should not say in this forum. When we retreat, we will see how that relationship will be worked on to ensure that all the Bills go through the normal process that is required.

Thank you, Sen. Murkomen.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I appreciate. We hope to discuss the Bill that was referred to the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget. We have a meeting that has been convened tomorrow. We hope that before the dates that you have announced, we will be able to conclude this matter and report to the House.

Sorry, Sen. Billow. What were you saying? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, with regard to the Bill you have referred to our Committee, I want to assure the House that we have, indeed, convened a meeting of the Committee tomorrow to discuss the same. We will be able to get the report of the Committee in this House as you indicated within the dates you gave. We have to conclude before then and forward our report to the House. But I also wish to assure hon. Senators that we will, as required by law, get public participation to ensure that we comply with the constitutional requirements in terms of getting the views of members of the public.

Order, hon. Senators. I have another Communication to make on the National Prayer Breakfast Meeting. Hon. Senators, as you are fully aware, Parliament, through the Parliamentary Prayer Group, has been hosting the Annual National Prayer Breakfast. This year’s National Prayer Breakfast is scheduled to take place on Thursday, 29th May, 2014 at The Safari Park Hotel beginning at 8.00 a.m. His Excellency the President, the hon. Uhuru Kenyatta, is expected to be the guest speaker. This is a function for all Senators, Members of the National Assembly and participants from the private and public service sectors. The event is funded by hon. Members through voluntary contributions. I, therefore, wish to appeal to hon. Senators willing to make their voluntary contributions to do so by signing against their names on the forms that are available at the Serjeant-at-Arms at the entrance to the Chamber. In addition, hon. Senators who may wish to join the interdenominational Parliamentary Prayer Group are requested to contact Sen. David Musila for further details. I look forward to your generous contributions. I thank you.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to confirm that I will be one of the first few people to approach Sen. Musila. Since this noble exercise is being funded by Members of Parliament from the National Assembly and the Senate, could the organizers consider, instead of meeting for breakfast, this be made an open function at Uhuru Park, Nyayo Stadium or anywhere secure, so that we, as leaders, can pray with the rest of the Kenyans instead of us finding ourselves in one secluded place like a hotel?

May be that is why you have---

Order, Sen. Orengo! I thought the point of order was being addressed to the Speaker. Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, of course, if that was a burning issue, you would have approached Sen. Musila even faster than you intend to do, so that you can also give him, The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I just want to confirm to hon. colleagues that we will be open to suggestions such as the one that has just been made by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. With your permission, may I also add that Sen. Beatrice Elachi is also in the committee and, therefore, in addition to approaching me, he should also approach Sen. Elachi.

So, you can approach either Sen. Musila or Sen. Elachi. Let us proceed to the next Order.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:- THAT, WHEREAS, pursuant to Article 181 of the Constitution and Section 33 of the County Governments Act, 2012, on 29th April, 2014, the County Assembly of Embu approved a Motion “ to remove from office,by impeachment,” the County Governor of Embu County; AND FURTHER, WHEREAS by letter dated 29th April, 2014 (Ref: CAE/SCA/1/35) and received in the Office of the Speaker of the Senate on 30th April, 2014, the Speaker of the County Assembly of Embu informed the Speaker of the Senate of the approval of the Motion by the County Assembly and further forwarded to the Speaker of the Senate documents in evidence of the proceedings of the Assembly; AND WHEREAS, pursuant to Section 33(3)(b) of the County Governments Act, 2012 and Standing Order No. 68(1)(b) of the Senate, by resolution, may appoint a Special Committee comprising eleven of its Members to investigate the matter; NOW THEREFORE, pursuant to Section 33(3) (b) of the County Governments Act, 2012 and Standing Order No.68 (1) (b), the Senate resolves to establish a Special Committee comprising the following Senators- 1. Sen. Kipchumba Murkomen; 2. Sen. Kimani Wamatangi; 3. Sen. Zipporah Kittony; 4. Sen. (Prof.) Wilfred Lesan; The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is it, Sen. Musila?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise under Standing Order No.88 which talks about anticipating debate. This matter of Governor Wambora has been debated very heavily since it came to light by very prominent Senators. I recall that at one point the Senate Minority Leader raised the issue of some of our colleagues purporting to be speaking on behalf of the Senate out there. This matter has become very serious because today, in the newspapers, some very prominent Senators are quoted to have already made a decision on a matter that is before this Senate. I think this is serious. We need your guidance as to whether we are going to be allowing debate on a matter that is before this Senate to be debated outside the Senate. For example, a prominent Senator, the Chief Whip, is reported today to have said that: “it is unfortunate the issues that impeached Governor Wambora last time are the same.” To make it worse, she goes on and says: “The Senate has no choice but to impeach Mr. Wambora.” The Deputy Majority Leader is quoted today as saying: “People cannot keep on hiding in courts. So, we are going to chase Wambora away.”

These are very serious matters yet the Senate Majority Leader stands here and gives a notice of a Motion to appoint a special committee to investigate a matter that apparently they have already made a decision on. We need your guidance over this matter. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Order, Members! Sen. Musila will be heard.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we need your guidance on this matter. When we raised the issue of Senators speaking on behalf of the Senate out there, we were told that it would come under a Kamkunji . But I think this matter is going beyond the limits. The Senate Majority Leader has even addressed himself on this matter. I want today to be guided on the issue---

Order, Sen. Musila. You are now becoming repetitive.

I want to be guided on the issue I have raised of the two colleagues, Senators I respect a lot, who have today debated the matter that is before us.

Sen. Musila, while you are at it, which sources are you quoting?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Daily Nation of today, Tuesday, 6th May, 2014.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am just wondering whether it is in order for my brother, Sen. Musila, to do two things; one, to come to this House carrying newspaper cuttings yet we know in the traditions of this House and according to the Standing Orders, you cannot rely on newspaper information as a basis for substantiation because newspapers write things which may not be true. Two, whether it is in order for the distinguished Senator for Kitui County, Sen. Musila, whom I respect a lot, to also mislead this House that by the time alleged remarks were made, which are in any case based on newspapers, that the Senate was seized with the matter of the Governor of Embu County. Is he in order on those two grounds?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for Sen. Musila, the Chairman of the famous Wiper Party, to mislead the House by selectively reading Standing Order No.88? The Standing Order says:- “It shall be out of order to anticipate the debate of a Bill which has been published as such in the Gazettee by discussion upon a substantive Motion or an amendment, or by raising the subject matter of the Bill upon a Motion for the adjournment of the Senate.” We have just given notice of the Motion now. Between the time that the notice was given and now, I have not heard any Senator who has discussed anything about the same matter. That is totally misleading.

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Sen. Murkomen, I did not hear your last words. It looks like you swallowed them as you were seating down.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want you to rule that the Senator is out of order because he read that particular Standing Order selectively and in an incomplete manner. I am looking for the best words to---

We have heard you.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I insist. I am quite in order. In addition to the newspaper cutting, whatever was said by the Senators, I heard what they said was on television. We saw them discuss it. On the issue of whether the matter was before the Senate, you did gazette this Special Sitting of the Senate today and indicated the matter to be handled. So, when the matter was discussed, it was in public knowledge that the Senate would discuss this matter. This matter has been debated outside by the distinguished Senators as I have already said. In my view, and I want you to hold me correct, it is out of order.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. We knew before we came to this House because the agenda was circulated, that we were coming to meet for three things. One was the Message from the Chair; two, the Division of Revenue Bill and three the matter regarding Governor Wambora. There is absolutely no excuse for any Senator in this House to speak out there and claim that they are just newspaper cuttings. So, it is in the knowledge of all Senators, according to the information I have even on my phone, let alone the paper Sen. Musila carried. So, it is not fair for the entire Senate to be ridiculed because this is as good as ridicule. Out there, people think we are not serious people. Are the Members in order to defend a position which is not right for the Senate?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I request that in determining the issue of the Standing Order as raised by Sen. Musila, you consider Standing Order No. 88(3) which is very important. It says:- “In determining whether a debate is out of order on the grounds of anticipation, regard shall be had to the probability of the matter anticipated being brought before the Senate within a reasonable time.” I think this was a reasonable time.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. With due respect to my colleague, the Senator for Kitui County, I am entitled to my own opinion. I am a politician and I can say what, to me, is right. In any case, this House had already made a decision earlier on. All of us collectively voted for the Motion. The facts are the same. However, having said that, I thought after today, when all this is before the Committee, we wait for the Committee to bring the report. At that point, if I make a comment or anybody else makes comments when the issue is before the Committee, that means we will violate the matter. But even now, we have not adopted it as a House. We are entitled to our opinions. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Order, Senators. I think we have all heard Sen. Musila raise issues of anticipating debate under Standing Order No.88. That Standing Order has three provisions. All of them have been referred to. The first one was made reference to by Sen. Musila, the second one by Sen. Murkomen and the third one by Sen. (Dr.) Machage. So, the entire Standing Order has been read to the House, I do not need to repeat it. Let me say the following. This is a bit tricky. You need to read the words very carefully. If you read part (2) of the Standing Order, it says:- “It shall be out of order to anticipate the debate of a Motion of which notice has been given by discussion upon substantive Motion or an amendment, or by raising the same subject matter upon a Motion of the adjournment of the Senate.” Notice was not given until now. Yes, there was a gazette notice of a Special Sitting to discuss the matter but the Speaker does not give notices of motions. I gave notice of a Special Sitting because the Senate is on recess. So, strictly speaking, anybody else would raise the matter before now. According to part (3) of that standing order, and that is why I am saying it is a bit tricky, I had already noticed that, the question would be, why would the Members be in a hurry to debate when they have an opportunity given by the Constitution and the people of the Republic of Kenya to come and say all the things they would wish to say on any particular matter? The probability of the matter anticipated being brought before the Senate within a reasonable time, of course, the time had already been spelt out, it was very reasonable. If it could be reported this morning on the material day, there is nothing more reasonable than that. Having said that, unfortunately, your source of information is also inadmissible. Not only are you the Chairman of a very important party known as Wiper, but you are a very seasoned politician having even been a former Deputy Speaker. I know for a fact, you are very robust with Standing Orders. So, I find that your point of order is not admissible.

But having dismissed it, I want to make it absolutely clear that all Senators, including the ones being mentioned, must restrain themselves. Censorship should not be a matter by the state, it is a matter that you look at your own circumstances and your stand in society and you know the kind of things that you will say. Some of the utterances may be prejudicial to the deliberations before us. But as they have clarified, those were their own The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Thank you for that guidance. But if you listened to Sen. Musila introducing his point of order, he referred to prominent Senators who were making statements out there. He referred in particular to Sen. Elachi and Sen. Murkomen. Is he in order to suggest that in this House there are categories of Senators, prominent and non-prominent?

Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to thank you for the ruling you have given. But listening to you keenly, I am not too sure whether we have carried the country with us with that ruling. Sen. Musila talked of a discussion outside this House. Standing Order No.88, to my understanding, refers to an attempt during debate in this House. This is when during debate, you veer off and start anticipating debate of another matter. I was thinking that if that is also your persuasion, then it is important that the House knows that the only way you can be accused of having anticipated debate is when, on the Floor of this House, debating some matter in this House, you anticipate another matter. I do not know whether I have made that point. It would be nice for you to clarify.

It is not only nice, I owe it to you. You have actually done better than I thought. If I wanted it that way, it would have been worse to your good friend, Sen. Musila, and I thought you had already confirmed to the House that you are going to be the first person to approach him. I wanted you to continue along those lines. In terms of anticipating debate, it is not only when you are on the Floor because there is a substantive Motion and the issue of discussion and the one debating itself was of interest to me, but this was not supposed to be a considered ruling. That is the one that can be done when you put all the parameters together. This was just to dispose of a point of order that had come for now. But you can also anticipate debate if the matter is actively before the House or a Committee of the House and you are out there discussing the same. This was a special session for a special sitting.

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Order, Senate Majority Leader, just a minute before you go ahead. Where is the Order Paper? Order, Senators! Before we proceed with Order No.5, I would like to make a Communication for purposes of clarity.

Hon. Senators, in terms of Article 181 of the Constitution, Section 33(3a) of the County Governments Act and the Senate Standing Order No.68 (1) (A), the Speaker of the Senate is required within seven days after receiving notice of a resolution from the Speaker of a County Assembly to convene a meeting of the Senate to hear charges against the Governor. It is in this respect that I convened this Special Sitting of the Senate by Gazette Notice No.3020 of 2nd May, 2014 which was carried in a special issue of the Kenya Gazette of the same day. Section 33(3b) of the County Governments Act and Standing Order No.68(1b) both provide that at this sitting, the Senate by resolution may appoint a special committee comprising eleven of its Members to investigate the matter. Indeed, hon. Senators will observe in today’s Order Paper that pursuant to these provisions of the law, the Senate Majority Leader has already given Notice of Motion for the establishment of a Special Committee. You will also observe that the Motion has, with the approval of the Speaker, been listed on the Order Paper. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move of the following Motion:- THAT, WHEREAS, pursuant to Article 181 of the Constitution and Section 33 of the County Governments Act, 2012, on 29th April, 2014, the County Assembly of Embu approved a Motion “ to remove from office,by impeachment,” the County Governor of Embu County; AND FURTHER, WHEREAS by letter dated 29th April, 2014 (Ref: CAE/SCA/1/35) and received in the Office of the Speaker of the Senate on 30th April, 2014, the Speaker of the County Assembly of Embu informed the Speaker of the Senate of the approval of the Motion by the County Assembly and further forwarded to the Speaker of the Senate documents in evidence of the proceedings of the Assembly; The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is it, Sen. Khaniri?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand to seek your ruling on the Motion that the Senate Majority Leader is just moving. This is under Standing Order No.50(1) which says that no Motion may be moved which is the same in substance as any question which The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Under very ordinary circumstances, the distinguished Senator for Vihiga would be very right but it should not be lost to all of us, including my brother, Sen. Khaniri, that we are where we are because a court ruled that the Motion that went before the County Assembly of Embu and the Motion that came before this Assembly was invalid, null and void. Therefore, there was no Motion to go back to the Standing Order mentioned. So, indeed, where we stand much as the Standing Order quoted is correct under normal circumstances where you have debated and passed a Motion, we are in a situation where we debated and passed a Motion that was then declared to be null and void. Therefore, there was no Motion as we stand here. So, I believe that the distinguished Senator for Tharaka-Nithi is correctly moving a Motion. It does not offend the Standing Order quoted and the matter is seized by this House constitutionally, legally and within our Standing Orders.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. We are here by virtue of the Gazette Notice that you posted last week. That was the admission of the head of the Senate that the Senate was respecting the ruling of the High Court. If it is true that you were accepting the ruling of the High Court, it means that you were acknowledging the fact that whatever we had done here initially had been voided by that particular ruling. It, therefore, follows that having admitted so, it means that all that we did is non- existent. Therefore, what we are doing is purely on the assumption that nothing happened. It is a fresh process and it would be dishonest for us to accept to come and meet accepting the ruling of the court and then come and say “well having accepted that it was voided, it is there in our records”. Therefore---

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I would very much doubt whether what Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale is saying is correct. The court ruling cannot void everything we said in this Senate. I do not think that is true. In any case, this issue could be resolved very easily if you invoke Standing Order No.1 and we proceed.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I was of the opinion that since this issue had been debated and has been brought before the House again, I do not see it is proper to appoint a committee but the same committee can just discuss the issue and it will be final.

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On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Whereas I respect the views pronounced by the distinguished Senator for Vihiga, but if you read the Motion, it cannot be true that what is before the House by way of this Motion is the same as the one that we dealt with. It is not. If you read this Motion, it talks about a decision made by the County Assembly on 29th April, 2014. So, that there are no doubting Thomases, you are not just supposed to look at the Order Paper, there are accompanying documents to assist you if you have any doubts. If you look at the particulars of allegations against the Governor of Embu County, they may be similar but they are not the same. You know English is a very precise language. Again, in the accompanying document, there is a debate at the County Assembly of Embu and the HANSARD is there. That debate was held on 29th April, 2014. More importantly, there were writs which were served on the Speaker in accordance with Article 181 of the Constitution and Section 33 of the County Governments Act. Once you receive them, then you are expected, in a particular fashion-- - Even the ten days provided in the Motion is not something you have picked up in the air, it is in the law. So, whereas I symphathize with the comments made by the Senator for Vihiga, but had he cared to read the Motion carefully, he would have discerned the fact that this is completely different and therefore completely in order. I would rather we do not even talk about what happened in court because once you begin talking about what happened in court, then even the authority of this House will be undermined. We deal with the business that comes to us in accordance with the law.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Order! Sen. Murkomen has the Floor.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is a House of records and it is important that certain issues go on record. I want to pick from where my mentor, Sen. Orengo, left that, indeed, the question of the court does not arise. The issue of whatever court orders were given are not known to this House. What is known in this House is the different communication that came from Embu County which is different from the other one. It is important that this House passes this Motion. This House should operate with a lot of impartiality. This issue is clouded by the previous issues that may have come to this House because we are dealing with a different Motion. In fact, if you read the law, you will see that there are situations where a Motion will come to this House, sail through and the County Assembly will have an opportunity to do another one after three months. You cannot come back here and say that this case is similar to the other one because the law provides that after three months, a Motion similar to the one that had been brought before can still be brought and we look at it. So, if we go the direction that the Senator for Vihiga is talking about and if we were to agree with him, we would be shooting down those provisions of law. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Tosha!

Once you speak, that does not mean that the entire House has spoken. While we appreciate your opinion, you should also appreciate any other opinion.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The original point of order raised by my friend over there, George Khaniri, portrayed that he was very clear in his mind that he wanted to find out whether the Speaker can decide on this matter. However, the matter had been turned into a debate. All of us are trying to give an answer to hon. Khaniri when the Speaker is the one to decide on this matter. We have made this House to be a different House, whose proceedings cannot be followed. Therefore, I suggest that you give us a ruling so that we debate on the Motion.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will really appreciate if in your ruling, you also realise that Sen. Khaniri has a point. What is the Motion before this House? The Motion is very clear. The Motion is to set up a Committee of 11 Senators to investigate the proposed removal of the Governor. In essence, if you leave out the semantics about the date that the letters that were sent among other things, the Motion will remain the same. You may want to look at it in that context.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise on this point of order because I know that I will have an opportunity to speak again. This is not the same Motion. I want to support what Sen. Kipchumba Murkomen and Sen. James Orengo have said by adding the following. It is possible under the Constitution and also under the County Governments Act for several Motions involving the same county and the same Governor in different contexts to come every three months. So, this is not the same issues. Some of the issues could be similar to those that have been brought here before. This is a different Motion.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Order, Sen. Bule. You can only speak once the Chair has allowed you and not when you feel like it. Let me make my ruling. One is that I will invoke Standing Order No.1 to start with. I will first dispose of the preliminaries. For Sen. G.G. Kariuki, this is a House of The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not intend to take too long. I have already said that among the various duties that this House has to perform, in my personal view, this is a very sad one. This is because it talks about, number one, a very important and critical office in the devolution system and that is the Office of the Governor. Number two, we are talking about removal from office which is quite a drastic and unfortunate event. Having said so, I would like to say that those who drafted this Constitution had a good reason to put these processes and functions in this format. Therefore, we should not be shy to discharge our duties when we must discharge them. We have always said, time and again, that some of the misconceptions that are emerging The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Sen. Kindiki, unfortunately, we will share with you the responsibility on this one because you were interrupted. You need to move the Motion. You need to complete moving the Motion.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand guided. The membership of the proposed Committee is very diverse. In terms of gender, it is also very diverse and in terms of the party. Both parties are---

Order, Sen. Kindiki. You have not concluded moving the Motion. Do not just move to the justifications.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Sorry, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I think I did not get what I was supposed to do. I will continue from where I left before the point of order was raised.

To investigate the proposed removal from office of the Governor of Embu County and to report to the Senate within 10 days on its appointment on whether it finds the particulars of the allegations to have been substantiated. What we do here is critical for the country, devolution and for this House. You have, correctly pointed out that the least that is expected from this House as we debate this Motion is to maintain our sobriety and our cool because the Committee which is proposed here will be charged with the responsibility of discussing a matter that is quite grave and which is critical to the devolution system as I have said. The other thing I want to say, as I move this Motion, is that I want to look at these issues in the context that something went wrong in the counties, as this Motion was being moved, in terms of procedure. That is why the County Assembly had to repeat this process. From this end, we are taking up the process to see that it is done in accordance with the law. I also want to say that in the spirit of an open mind and sobriety and as this Committee is proposed, it is assumed that we do not know the veracity of the claims that have been made against the Governor. That is why this Committee is important. It will ensure that the accused person has an opportunity to come before the Committee to defend himself, to adduce and give evidence among other things. The work of the Committee is cut out and is described in the relevant parts of the law and in particular, Section 33 of the County Governments Act where it is provided that the Committee must report to this House within ten days. That means that it could do this earlier than ten days. It is expected and probably adequate time will be provided to the accused persons to defend themselves and to produce any evidence that they have to support their defence. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of information, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki); Mr. Speaker, Sir, for that reason, I am convinced that I want to be informed by the eminent Senator, James Orengo. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the issue of hierarchy, I think the Senate Majority Leader is making a very important point. I want to inform him that even in the Constitution, the legislature comes before the Executive in Chapter eight and followed by the Executive in Chapter nine and subsequently the Judiciary. That hierarchy is upheld by the Constitution.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank Sen. James Orengo, one of the solid minds that we have in this country for giving me that information. Having dispensed with the stature and position of the Executive and the Judiciary in a constitutional democracy that leads me to conclude that the superior and the unimpeded arm of Government that can claim that it is entirely drawing from the mandate of the people is the Senate and the National Assembly of Kenya. For that reason, let us not make mistakes and imagine, for example, that a member of the Executive or a member of the Judiciary can sit down in a room and make a decision that arrests this process made by Parliament of Kenya. I say this with a lot of respect for judges and the Judiciary, what courts can do for clarity is to wait until a decision has been made and tell us how it was arrived at. Was it in accordance with the law? They can make that declaration. In fact, they can even quash something that has been legislated on. They cannot force Parliament to pass a law or to make a legislative action which according to them is the proper one. So, the court can say this Bill or this Act is unconstitutional, but the court cannot force Parliament to pass another Act which according to them is unconstitutional. Parliament can ignore. They can say that they have noted that, but they---

On a point of information, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to be informed by the Senate Minority Leader; another distinguished Senator.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, if you allow me to inform the distinguished Senator, in fact, a court in Mombasa made a decision recently purporting to say that there is a contradiction between the Elections Act and the Constitution and that it should be taken to Parliament for legislation. The Supreme Court has said that Judge was very wrong because the Constitution is supreme and it stands.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also want to say that the Senate Minority Leader is equally one of the very distinguished and solid legal minds. Just for the record again. I really appreciate that information and it is well taken. Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is in that context that, that clarity should go out there and nobody should think or even imagine that this House can be intimidated either by the Executive or by the Judiciary. So we are here as a result of certain flaws that emanated from the other side and not on this side. Having said so, I want to say that should it be appropriate for this House to pass the proposal in this Motion, we hope that justice will be done and this process will make The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is so refreshing listening to a transformed Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki. I beg to second. This Motion is before this House to call upon distinguished Senators to discharge their constitutional duty. On previous occasions, this distinguished House and individual Senators have demonstrated very ably that they can rise to the occasion and discharge their duties with distinction, without fear, favour and prejudice. Today the country looks at this Senate, once again, not because the Governor is question is a habitual offender, but because they county assembly with which he works has found it necessary, prudent, legal and constitutional to go through the motion they have done and discharged their duty by forwarding to this House. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this Senate has many functions, but no function in my view is more trying, raises greater expectations than presiding over the impeachment of a Governor. Like I have said before and, indeed in one of the articles I wrote in today’s newspapers, there is no collective guilt or collective wrong doing by governors. Each case coming to this Chamber shall be dealt with as one case on its merit. In arriving at the team on the Select Committee that we are putting before this House, I want to assure distinguished Senators that there have been deep and wide consultations between both sides of the House, knowing that the distinguished Governor of Embu, my good friend, Mr. Wambora is not before this Senate as a member of any party. He is before this Senate as Governor elected to manage a county to which those he works with think he has not and they have forwarded him to us to handle his case. I want to urge this House that as we finish these proceedings this afternoon, the distinguished Senators on the Committee move with speed to constitute themselves into a proper committee with a Chairperson and a Vice Chairperson and accord Governor Wambora every opportunity to be heard so that justice is not only seen to be done, but manifestly seen to be done. Mr. Speaker, Sir, as we do so, I want to enjoin the Senate Majority Leader in his very solid and sober arguments about the relationship between the Legislature and the Judiciary. Time and again, opinions have been voiced. I want to add my voice that nowhere in the world or in a democracy can a judicial officer sit and pen out a ruling or a judgment to injunct the Legislature from carrying out its work. What they can do is to deal with our decisions after the fact to find out whether it was constitutional, whether it offends the Constitution and so on and so forth. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support---

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. We have said over and over again that decorum in the House is very critical. Did you notice that while you were proposing the Question on your feet; that while the Senator for Baringo stood there still like a post as is required by the Standing Orders, other Senators were just walking up and down as if you were not on your feet? There was the distinguished Senator for Nairobi who is diminishing distinction in that order and the distinguished Senator for Embu and the distinguished Senator for Nyeri as well. They were just walking up and down.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Senator for Embu has not moved from his seat.

Order, Sen. Kivuti and Sen. Mbuvi! Just the way you have even acted now is sufficient to prove Sen. Wetangula right. But obviously I was on my feet. I just want to confirm from Sen. Kivuti; did you make any movements or did you remain in position like the Senator for Baringo?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I struggled, but I did not get out of my seat.

Sen. Sonko.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the problem is with the Senators who are wearing glasses or shades. Other Senators did not see us moving, we were freezing.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The point of order that is being raised by the Senate Minority Leader is not a trival issue. It is a very important issue. There is a Standing Order which says that while a Senator is on the Floor, between the Speaker and the Senator speaking, there should be no other Senator standing. This is not for nothing, but it is to uphold the dignity and authority of the House. In fact, I must commend the Deputy Speaker because constantly when he is on the Chair, he does not entertain such conduct. The worst thing is that if you have transgressed the rules of the House, the most honourable thing to do, and that is why you are honoruable and distinguished, is to stand up and say: “I apologise.” But to stand up and make all these The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Order, hon. Members! Sen. Orengo has just stated the obvious. There will not be a next time. The time is now. Sen. Sonko, if you made any movements, the best is just own up and apologise. That is why other Senators always refer to each other as distinguished or hon. Senators. Sen. Sonko.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, though Sen. Orengo is also in glasses, I apologise.

Sen. Kivuti.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will be very candid. Sen. Sonko was two steps ahead and I turned for him to pass. I did not know if turning in my seat was wrong. If it is your ruling that turning in my seat was wrong, then I apologise.

Okay. Let us leave the matter. Definitely turning on your seat has never been wrong. What is wrong is walking. So, you at least confirm that you are a witness that Sen. Sonko actually did---

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is it, Sen. Omar Hasasn?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, acknowledging the great interest by the Senators, particularly with respect to this Motion, so that we can allow a diversity of contributions, and acknowledging the time which is now 4.30 p.m., I want you to invoke the discretion of the Chair to limit the contributions to about three to five minutes.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I appreciate that the Senate is on recess and this is a Special Sitting. Ordinarily, a Special Sitting will disrupt the schedules of Senators. However, if there is a matter that requires the detail and focus of the Senate, it is this one. I would humbly urge my colleagues to be patient because this is not ordinary business; it is very grave business.

Sen. Khaniri, do you want to contribute?

Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the same matter. You the Chair, together with hon. Orengo and hon. Murkomen adequately convinced me that this is a different The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Sen. Khaniri is misleading this House. We were on recess. The time we had the committee we were not on recess. But that time the Committee had a chairperson. This one does not have a chairperson. The reason you summoned---

We had disposed of that matter.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is a new committee. Therefore, the procedure needs to be followed.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, having listened to all who have contributed and the various points of order pertaining to this Motion, I beg that you call upon the Mover to reply.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Order, Senators! First, I wish to tell Sen. Khaniri that similarity of names means nothing. It only means one thing, that there are Members of this House who have been asked to serve. We pass committees so many times with similar names, it has never bothered you. I do not know why it is a bother now. Secondly, your point on the reduction of time is important in the sense that it will allow as many contributors as possible, which I think that is the mood of the House, unlike your good neighbour, Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o who basically wishes to terminate debate. So, I will go by the one which is desirous of ensuring to the extent possible, and again, contrary to the Senate Majority Leader, while we appreciate that this is an important Motion, but this Motion is about the formation of a committee. It is not the substance. I also made it abundantly clear in my communication that I will not entertain people veering off into other matters. All we need to do as the House is just to confirm that these Members can serve on behalf of the Senate, period. In light of that, I order that I will give every contributor a maximum of five minutes starting with Sen. Billow who was already on the Floor. If possible, let us also minimize the points of order. I will not be entertaining most of them now.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the Motion. I agree with the Senate Majority Leader that this is very important business of this House because it is a constitutional responsibility of the Senate. One of the key mandates of the Senate in the Constitution is to protect counties and to serve the interests of counties. In Article 181, the Senate has the mandate to deal with impeachment matters of State officers. It is, therefore, important that we, as Senators, must appreciate that we have a key role in terms The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Am in order to suggest that even if we are consulting, we do so quietly because we cannot hear what Sen. Billow is saying? There seems to be a lot of noise near the door.

Indeed, let us have order Senators. If you are withdrawing from the Chamber, do so quietly. Already Sen. Orengo had reminded the House that you do not come between the Speaker and the Senator on the Floor. I have already seen Sen. (Eng.) Karue, Sen. Gideon Moi pointing at the other one and Sen. Musila having done so. But at least Sen. (Eng.) Karue was consulting the Clerks-at-the Table. But the rest of you, whatever you are doing, you have consulted away from Sen. Billow Kerrow. Proceed, hon. Senator.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I was saying, the Committee must apply itself to the evidence that will be submitted before them. In particular, the veracity and adequacy of the evidence in determining whether, in fact, the Governor should be impeached or not. This is important in view of some of the concerns that have been raised earlier that The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also stand to support this very important Motion that is appearing for the second time, but differently, as pointed out this afternoon. I want to recognise colleagues for the period we have been on recess, especially when the court ruled otherwise. I note the sobriety we maintained where we did not impute anything negative against the Judiciary or any other State organ. That is why the Senate is described as the voice of reason and the level headed legislative organ in this country. Devolution is something we all need to guard jealously. The Senate should be in a position to separate a number of things. We are not in essence saying governors must be condemned collectively. But where there is any wrong doing, the Senate or even this particular Committee we are appointing this afternoon should not shy away from unearthing the truth so that we can have useful lessons in which, we, as a country, will be able to learn from. The other thing I want to comment on is about this particular Committee of 11 persons. Even if they are the same old ones, really, if anything they will have done additional value because they will use the same experience they gained in terms of interrogating individual groups and the governor himself. So, they have an edge over any other new person. As much as we are saying that it was important to, probably, mix, this group has the requisite skills, capacity and abilities to be able to get us to the position where we want. When we begun the sitting this afternoon, a number of colleagues were said to have spoken outside this Chamber with regard to an issue that was about to appear in this House. Some of us felt that should not have happened because we did not want the process to be jeopardized. Whether it is before the notification or after the notification, we must restraint as Members of this House from talking about it outside because it might dent our image negatively. That is why a number of us were opposing it this afternoon. So, it is important as we go out and as we wait for the Committee’s recommendations before we reconvene, it is important we all observe restraint as Members so that we do not jeoperdise the process. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish the committee well in the new deliberations. Thank you.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand to support this Motion and say that while it is a new team in the eyes of the Motion, the individuals concerned are actually the same ones. But I think this gives them a new in depth and thorough interrogation of the matter. It also gives the Governor and all those concerned stakeholders a chance so The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I beg to oppose this Motion. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is a House of fairness. The Constitution clearly gives us two ways in which we can hold the court for this issue of Governor Wambora.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, whereas the Mover of the Motion had a good idea on picking the 11 Member Committee as prescribed by the Constitution, he did pick names of Members who were in the Committee that ruled over the same issue three months ago. It is what lawyers may call “legal jurisprudence.” It is not fair. This is total prejudice to the accused because these Members already made a ruling. They are unlikely to make a different ruling from what they had already done three months ago although this is a different Motion in front of this House. In the interest of fairness and being a House of wise people, Governor Wambora deserves a fair hearing. Since this Committee has been laid before us, the best thing that the Members of this Committee could have done is to withdraw their names so that other Members could be put in this Committee so as to make it appear fair to the accused. We are making history. While making history, we should not be seen as if we have a revenge issue. What other ruling do you really expect from this Committee, if at all there was to be any other? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for granting me time to contribute to this important Motion. Before I proceed, I would like to take this House back to our previous contributions. I concur with Sen. (Dr.) Machage’s remarks. Mr. Speaker, Sir, while seated there, I received a message from one of the senior officers in the Judiciary. The content of the message is that we should not blame the Judiciary because of mistakes committed by another bench sitting in Kiambu, Embu, Kirinyaga or wherever else. I remember, in a similar Division of Revenue Bill last year, the Supreme Court gave a very favourable advisory opinion in our favour. The mistakes committed by some judges should not be blamed on the entire Judiciary. If today I, as Sen. Sonko, sleep on the road or punch the walls, we cannot blame Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, Sen. Elachi or any other Senator. Mr. Speaker, Sir, we were supposed to go back to the same bench to disqualify that bench which delivered a ruling in favour of Governor Wambora because it had an interest in the same matter which was before them because they had earlier delivered a ruling in favour of the same Governor. So, there was no way they could set aside their ruling or decision. From the message that I received from this officer of the Judiciary, and from the understanding that I have in the law process of this country, we are either supposed to---

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is it, Sen. Murkomen?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I did not mean to interrupt---

You should let me finish!

Order, Sen. Sonko!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I did not mean to interrupt the distinguished Senator for Nairobi, but there are rules in this House. Any document or source of document that is referred to must be tabled for substantiation so that we can refer to it. This is a House of record. Otherwise, if someone reading the HANSARD says that a judicial officer or a judge--- But having said that, Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is not that I want my colleague to reveal the name or the source, I would rather that he proceeds with it as his own information than referring to a source that cannot be tabled.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, in my contribution and for the first time in the history of this House, I want to contribute in defence or in favour of the Judiciary. From The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Order, Sen. Mbuvi! The Motion is about our own Committee.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am coming to that point.

What I am saying is that come quickly to that point.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, based on the Short Messaging Service (SMS) I have just received, I am just conveying the same matter touching the issue on the Floor of the House. I do not want to give an explanation then I come to the point of the Committee as to whether I support it or not. Mr. Speaker, Sir, you have the discretion of allowing me to convey this message on the Floor of this House. So, with all due respect to this House, and for the message I have just received from the judiciary, the bench---

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is it, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, if the Senator for Nairobi wishes to convey any message from whatever source, it is also important that as we acknowledge that message, we should know the source. Could he substantiate who has given him the message and give us a copy of the same message?

Order Senators, to use the substantiation aspect, it is when the information being given is already adverse. So, Sen. Mbuvi is just excited about some SMS. I think Sen. Murkomen had already guided him properly and that is why I did not want to go to that issue. Let him just abandon that route and proceed to conclude on the issue of the Committee. Sen. Mbuvi, if you persist on your message, in fact, I thought Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale was going to tell you the proper ways within the Standing Orders in which messages are conveyed. Proceed.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, since we are treating what has been tabled before us from the Embu County Assembly as a new matter, I support the Committee and we should hear it afresh. I am in solidarity with my colleagues. The only problem is that I have not exhausted the points which I had, but I am sure towards the end, I will support the Motion. This House supports devolution. With your discretion and with due respect to the hon. Senators, I stood on a point of order when Sen. Wetangula was contributing, but I did not catch your eye. With your permission, I have a point to deliver, but I think Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale is misquoting me.

Bw. Spika, asante kwa kunipa nafasi hii ili nipinge Hoja hii. Kitu cha kwanza, hii Hoja imetolewa na majina ya wale Maseneta ambao kwa upande wangu nina hakika wanaweza kufanya kazi hii. Katika wale Maseneta 11 waliowekwa na Kiongozi wa Walio Wengi, hakuna hata Seneta mmoja ambaye hawezi kuifanya kazi. Wote wana uwezo wa kuifanya hiyo kazi lakini katika akili yangu, je wale Maseneta The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of information, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Ni sawa kwa ndugu yangu kunieleza.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I concur with Sen. Madzayo’s remarks. I would like to inform him because he has just said something very sensitive, so if any High Court judge or High Court Bench delivers a ruling which is not favourable to the parties in that application, the one who is not satisfied has a right to go back to that same bench to stay that ruling. If the judge does not give a ruling in favour of the application, we always have a right to go back to the superior court in case, the Court of Appeal. If it does not give a favourable ruling in favour of either party, those parties have a right of going to the Supreme Court to seek for the disqualification of the bench or to appeal against the ruling or the judgment delivered by the lower court.

Asante ndugu yangu Sonko lakini ningependa kukueleza kwamba mshtakiwa ana njia mbili katika sheria. Mshtakiwa anaweza kukubali ama kukata rufaa. Kwa hivyo, jukumu hilo ni lake. Ningependa kusema kwamba sisi kama Seneti, ni Bunge ambalo linaheshimiwa katika Kenya nzima. Ikiwa kuna Mkenya ambaye haki yake haitatimizwa kwa sababu tumeamua ni lazima mambo yawe hivyo, kwa maoni yangu, naona haki haitatimizwa ikiwa tutaweka majina haya vile yalivyokuwa. Kuna umuhimu wa Maseneta hawa 11 kujiondoa ili Seneti iwachague wengine ambao akili zao hazijaamua. Hii ni kwa sababu kisheria, akili zao zimeshaamua na zinajua mwelekeo zinaotaka kufuata. Maseneta wengine wanafaa kuchaguliwa kuchunguza swala hili.

Muda wako umeshakwisha.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir for giving me this chance. I would like to start from the outset by saying that I support the Motion. Of course, I am one of the Members of that Committee. I know that Sen. Madzayo and the Senator for Migori, Sen. (Dr.) Machage, have raised issues that on the face of it appear important, serious and relate to the issue of dearly. It is important that this House goes on record in realising that the Committee that will be formed will not do work on its own and to finality. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of information.

I have very little time.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to inform the distinguished Senator for Elgeyo-Marakwet that, in fact, what is before us is totally different? The last time, we were dealing with the impeachment of a Governor and his Deputy. Now, we are dealing with only one individual.

Thank you, Senate Minority Leader. I was coming to that point. We raised many points of order to demonstrate that this is a different decision. We have even demonstrated that this House has Standing Committees that have issues sent to them over and over again as long as things happen. We cannot say that there is bias when the Committee has to look at an issue again. Therefore, it is important, from the outset, to address the issue so that it does not appear that there will be another Senate---

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the consultations are very loud. I will be happy if Senators can lower their tones.

Hon. Senators, let us consult in low tones, if necessary.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, let me come to the substance of the formation of this Committee. As a Member of this Committee, I want to assure the country that we will look at the facts and the evidence. The reason we will look at the facts and the evidence is because we are a House of records and mature Senators. History will judge us harshly if we make shoddy reports or prepare documents which look, on the fact of it---

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Would I be in order to request that the Mover replies? I am saying this because the person on the Floor cannot presume to be elected to say what he will be taking into account. He is moving into a very dangerous area right now. I want to save him from that. He has said that---

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to speak as a Whip. I realized that Members of this House are walking out slowly. Knowing that this issue depends on our votes, I went out and marshaled them back and you saw me walking in with a group. If we keep on debating on this matter now, we will have no numbers at the time of voting. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, if I wanted to respond to that point of order, I would say that we cannot tell the country that we recalled ourselves from recess to come and run away from debate. I want to be on record to say that whereas we have the desire to keep people here, we cannot speak to the public and tell them that we are lazy to run around.

No! No!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, let me make my point. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. We cannot say that we are lazy. We cannot stand in this distinguished House and tell the country that the reason we want to rush the debate is because we have already made a ruling for five minutes. We now want to rush debate and the reason is that some people want to run away from the Chamber.

No! No!

Order, Sen. Murkomen! You are the one inviting trouble.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Hon. Senator should cool down. He does not have to make noise because he is in the Committee. He should wait. We have Standing Orders which allow any Member to rise and to ask the Mover to reply. That is what the Standing Orders say. He cannot tell us that we are lazy because we have been here for the last three hours. Is he in order? He should apologise to the House.

Hon. Senators, these matters are clearly spelt out in the Standing Orders. In fact, the Chair has been very sympathetic in trying to accommodate your views. There is a limit to that accommodation. I, therefore, wish to proceed as requested by hon. Sen. Amos Wako which was also supported by Sen. Muthama so that we put the question. It is up to you to decide. I was being generous with you, but, obviously, you have squandered that opportunity.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Sen. Orengo, in all probability, there could be nothing out of order after a vote has been taken.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I can clearly see the mood of the House. I do not need to belabour myself at the expense of losing the mood of the House. In line with the mood of the House, I beg to move.

Hon. Senators, this is a matter affecting counties and the most important thing is really to give the Committee sufficient time to prosecute the matter. It is not really the size, the gender, the composition, regional or religious beliefs of the membership or whether they were there before or after or when. The most The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Order! Order! The eight minutes are over! Draw the Bar and close the Doors! Order, Senators! Order! Assume your seats! It is time for voting.

Order, Senators! I am sure you would not want to be singled out. Proceed Clerk. Order, Senators, the voting has commenced!

Sen. Njoroge The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Nil

Sen. Hassan

Hon. Senators, I wish to announce the results as follows:-

Order Senators! Following the approval by the Senator of the Motion establishing a Special Committee and considering the tight timelines to investigate this matter and report back to the Senate. I direct that the Members of the Committee meet immediately at the rise of the Senate in the ground Floor, Committee Room at this County Hall Building to elect the chairperson and the vice chairperson and commence the work immediately. I further direct that the Committee completes its investigations and reports back to the Senate on Tuesday 13th May, 2014 at 2.30 p.m.

Hon. Senators, having exhausted the business on our Order Paper, it is, therefore, time to adjourn the House. This House stands adjourned until Tuesday, 13th May, 2014 at 2.30 p.m. The Senate rose at 5.35 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.